New Virginia Bill Would Criminalize Second Amendment-Related Speech

Virginia State Senator L. Louise Lucas prefiled Senate Bill 64 titled A BILL to amend and reenact § 18.2-433.2 of the Code of Virginia, relating to paramilitary activities; penalty.

The relevant portion:

A person shall be is guilty of unlawful paramilitary activity, punishable as a Class 5 felony if he:

1. Teaches or demonstrates to any other person the use, application, or making of any firearm, explosive, or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that such training will be employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder; or

2. Assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, explosive, or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, intending to employ such training for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder; or

3. Assembles with one or more persons with the intent of intimidating any person or group of persons by drilling, parading, or marching with any firearm, any explosive or incendiary device, or any components or combination thereof.

Thomas Jefferson would be so proud.

Frankly, most of that seems pointless as it would already seem to be covered by Virginia’s conspiracy law. I think number 3, however, is the real point here.

I suspect, being a Democrat, that Rep. Lucas has the Pantifa Redneck Revolt or John Brown Gun Club in mind.

But those on the left often consider simple open carry by anyone other than a police officer to be intimidating. No doubt the intended targets are folks like Oath Keepers and OC activists.

Basically, this oathbreaking senator is making pro-Second Amendment free speech a Class 5 felony:

For Class 5 felonies, a term of imprisonment of not less than one year nor more than 10 years, or in the discretion of the jury or the court trying the case without a jury, confinement in jail for not more than 12 months and a fine of not more than $2,500, either or both.

With the new Democrat-controlled Virginia legislature chomping at the bit to enact new, more imaginative ways of limiting the right to keep and bear arms in the state, chances of passage seem good.

What could possibly go wrong?

comments

  1. avatar Username says:

    As always, our speech is violence and their violence is speech. That will always be the intent behind these laws.

    1. avatar Law Yer says:

      Jury nullification

      1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

        Yep.

        John Jay, 1st Chief Supreme Court Justice (1786) : “The jury has the right to judge both the law and the facts in controversy….”

        Samuel Chase, Supreme Court Justice (1796) : “The jury has the right to determine both the law and the facts…”

        Oliver Wendel Holmes, Supre Court Justice (1902) : “The jury has the power to bring in a verdict in the teeth of both law and fact…”

        Harlan F. Stone, Chief Supreme Court Justice (1941) : “The law itself is on trial quite as much as the cause which is to be decided…”

        U.D. vs Dougherty, (1972) : “The pages of history shine on instances of the jury’s exercise of it’s prerogative to disregard instructions of the judge…”

        Marbury vs Madison (1803) : “All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void.”

        Miranda vs Arizona (1966) : “Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them.”

        1. avatar CJ Box says:

          It’s dick4s like in the photo that cause this kind of legislative reaction. You got frogbelly white shirtless buba with his zombie green matching holster, water bottle and underwear visible only because he wouldn’t spring for a real gun belt after blowing his wad on a Hi-Point and six pack of Bud Lite.

          Then there’s Hipster Johnny who can both vape and miss targets with his shotgun tricked out with Brownells latest mall ninja tactical package.

          Finally it’s Little Big Mag, one of the many short men who flock to open carry meetups in a valiant attempt to punch their man card. Always an awkward date.

          If the POG want respect, then pull up your pants and deserve it.

        2. avatar jwm says:

          So now we have to satisfy the fashion police?

        3. avatar LarryinTX says:

          Yo, CJ! Ever been to an outdoor range, competed in 3-gun or some such? I mean, in cowboy action, most folks want to dress the part, but costumes aren’t the big issue in other disciplines. If seeing expanses of flabby white offends you, you got a weird head. And these are not spectator sports, nobody is caring how the competitors are dressed. Lighten up.

      2. avatar Sam I Am says:

        “Jury nullification”

        From whence would such jury be selected? POTG?

        The same people who elected politicians to write such laws are the jury pool; not likely to be political renegades.

        Just one needed to thwart the verdict? How likely is it that from a sympathetic jury pool, the voir dire is remotely likely to select the one juror who is sufficiently informed as to even consider holding out for constitutional principles?

        Nope. People always get the government they deserve.

      3. avatar PsychoUSMC says:

        The new 2A buzz words, jury nullification. More guns than people in this country and we protect our God given rights with jury nullification. Sometimes I wonder if we even deserve a 2A.

    2. avatar Chris T in KY says:

      This is what this is about. Not antifia. It’s about the 1st amendment civil right of a gun owner to openly carry a gun. At public meetings in Virginia. The man carrying the long gun is “Cowboy T”. He is a Liberal gun owner who moved from San Francisco to the former capital of the confederacy.

      He has a great gun podcast. Check him out.

      http://www.liberalsguncorner.com/

      “VCDL rallies armed pro-gun activists to attend meeting of McLean Citizens Association”
      https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/virginia-gun-group-launches-intimidation-campaign-in-maclean-va-allegedly/

      Yes. As a conservative I do sometimes listen to Liberal gun owners.

    3. avatar James Viola says:

      The language of this bill “Sickens me!” Upright citizens being “Stripped” of their God given right to bear arms…
      We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness… True that!

    4. avatar Renov8 says:

      Well said…Phack em all.

  2. avatar Cadeyrn says:

    The ignorance and willful blindness of the left is shocking and dismaying. They will sacrifice their own long-term security for extremely short-term gains.

    Imagine, if you will, a Republican and Conservative backlash that not only reverses everything the Dems have done but also makes it outright illegal for Democrats to advocate for anything in violation of the Virginia Constitution Article I, Section 13 (“the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”) as well as to run on platforms suggesting we should “reallocate” wealth, or otherwise trying to buy votes with public largesse, offer “free” anything, or advocate for the same. Will Democrats remain a viable political party? Signs point to “no.”

  3. avatar former water walker says:

    Elections have consequences. As do twits who propose such “laws”. Don’t some leftards claim the 2A is only about MILITIAS?!?😖

    1. avatar Someone says:

      Yes, guns are only for militias and this bill makes even trying to create a militia illegal. Problem of “gunviolence” solved.

      1. avatar LarryinTX says:

        Yeah, no. Start at 1st grade, learn to read, proceed to learn the English language with particular attention to sentence construction, should be up to speed by 8th grade, then re-read 2A and you will discover your errors.

      2. avatar My name says:

        Taking away our given right to create a militia to revolt against our corrupt government doesn’t solve the gun violence issue. If you think that then you are blinded by the propaganda that Is our government. Our government is more corrupt then it’s ever been and now is the time to take up arms and prepare to defend ourselves against a domestic enemy. We have that right and if the government doesn’t reform itself then we the people will reform it.

  4. avatar Dwight Hansen says:

    Finally someone got this right.

    I’ve seen people claim this outlaws firearm training and ever martial artists thinking it outlaws their teaching.

    Points 1 & 2 have been law since 1987. All 50 states have similar laws. Training is not illegal in any of them.

    Thank you for pointing out that this is an anti 1A bill.

    1. avatar Casey says:

      Sure. But…

      1. Teaches or demonstrates to any other person the use, application, or making of any firearm, explosive, or incendiary device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that such training will be employed for use in, or in furtherance of, **a civil disorder**;

      What’s a Civil Disorder? Conveniently, we have an example:

      3. Assembles with one or more persons with the intent of intimidating any person or group of persons by drilling, parading, or marching with any firearm, any explosive or incendiary device, or any components or combination thereof.

      So if I teach safe gun handling to someone who says “I’m going to go to a rally at the capital, and I want to be safe”, where am I at?

      It doesn’t take a hard twist of logic to see where that’s going.

    2. avatar strych9 says:

      Honestly, the meaning of 2 is dependent on what you want or how good/bad your English is.

      Is that comma between “persons” and “intending” supposed to be there for the purpose of separating items in a list? Is it a comma splice? Is it just bad writing and the comma is taking the place of an actual word such as “while” with the intention of stating that the previous list and clause are dependent on the following clause?

      While one could argue that it is the last option there’s no particular reason to parse the English that way and most people wouldn’t. Perhaps there is some special set of rules for grammar and punctuation that lawyers use but generally speaking you’re not supposed to look at a punctuation mark and assume that it actually stands for a word that would complete the sentence in a way that the resulting meaning just happens to line up with what you think.

      Could it be written in a way that’s designed to be open to interpretation? Yes. Could it just be shitty English and not meant to say what it does say? Yes. Could there be a difference between “actual English” and “legal English”? Sure. Would I want my future to be in the hands of the judge and be forced to hope that he got stellar grades in AP English? Fuck no.

      Personally, if I were reviewing something like this I would circle it and mark it as “unclear” for revision.

      1. avatar Matt Richardson says:

        Never before, in my recollection, have I clapped while reading a blog comment. I’ve always liked checking your comments but you knocked this one out of the park.

        1. avatar strych9 says:

          Thanks. Appreciate it.

  5. avatar I Haz A Question says:

    As per Virginia law, the state recognizes six classes of Felony:

    Class 1 – example: capital murder

    Class 2 – examples: armed burglary or permanent bodily injury

    Class 3 – examples: arson or sex trafficking

    Class 4 – examples: breaking & entering or embezzlement

    Class 5 – examples: involuntary manslaughter or abduction/kidnapping

    Class 6 – example: drug related offenses

    ****
    So the State of Virginia is considering the act of “parading while in the possession of a firearm” as equivalent to actual homicide or kidnapping? Virginians, wake up and vote these people out as soon as you can!

  6. avatar Henry Bowman says:

    Take a good long look at your state flag, Virginians.

    It’s your motto, and your user’s manual, all in one.

    Ready or not, the leftists ARE coming for you next year. And when they make the first overtures on some poor bastard, the rest of you need to respond in-kind to those who started this.

  7. avatar Stateisevil says:

    Better make some people suffer when they try to enforce all this or the 2nd amendment is meaningless.

    1. avatar Green Mtn. Boy says:

      That is the reason for it’s having been written.

  8. avatar jwm says:

    No society can tolerate fascism. In our age fascism is represented by the dems and the left. Antifa are their brown shirts.

    Fortunately the fascists have over played their hand. With Trump appointing justices at a record rate and with him sure to get a second term it’s only a matter of a short time more for a great house cleaning to occur.

  9. avatar Gliderguy says:

    “Assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, explosive, or incendiary device, or TECHNIQUE capable of causing injury or death to persons…”
    I think as well as second amendment supporters, every martial arts Dojo in the state needs to stomp hard on this. Teaching self defense is now a felony? How about those licensed to produce fireworks displays?

    1. avatar Tom in Oregon says:

      Great point on the dojo’s!

    2. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

      “I think as well as second amendment supporters, every martial arts Dojo in the state needs to stomp hard on this. Teaching self defense is now a felony?”

      That’s kind of the whole *point* of the Leftist political manifesto. Their greatest desire is create a European utopia (except, in actuality, it’s dystopia).

      In England, self-defense is not a right. Example – In a home there, if your residence is home invaded, if you injure the SOB that broke in, *you* will be the one charged with a crime. That is where ‘Progressive’ policy leads, self-defense is a crime. Call the police or make a claim to your insurance company, that is your only legal remedy. That is what they want here…

      1. avatar TonyL says:

        Yep, we are clearly headed in that direction.

  10. avatar Green Mtn. Boy says:

    The Commiecrats want to repeal the Constitution in it’s entirety and just can’t help but let their inner totalitarian rage.

    1. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

      “The Commiecrats want to repeal the Constitution in it’s entirety…”

      No, they don’t. What they do want is some ‘tweaks’ to support their agenda…

  11. avatar Merle 0 says:

    Typical leftist fascism.

    Side note: Dudes in that picture already ready for the post apocalyptic wasteland apparently.

    1. avatar Gadsden Flag says:

      Merle, there’s one shirtless guy with a handgun, another guy with a shotgun (maybe he’s bird hunting) and a handgun. Another guy that may have some kind of a long gun slung. If you think they’re ready for a post apocalypse wasteland you don’t even want to meet my friends.

      1. avatar Porridgeweasel says:

        AHahahaha!!!!! He wouldn’t like mine either. That gave me a good laugh GF.

        1. avatar Merle 0 says:

          Yeah I’ve actually taken part in actual militias that have armor and air capabilities, so whatever you say. If you want to open carry shirtless then be my guest. Some of you have literally no sense of humor, and that’s sad.

      2. avatar Merle 0 says:

        I was referring to the fact that the one dude was open carrying shirtless. It was a joke. Tough crowd around here.

        1. avatar Porridgeweasel says:

          I got it Merle. It’s all good. I just got a laugh thinking of what people must think when my shooting buddies get together fron GF’s comment.

  12. avatar moreadventuresonotherplanets says:

    In the short and long run of the proposed law it will absolutely benefit all decent law abiding gun owners. Groups like the Proud Boys, the KKK, the Charlottsville Herr Drumpf Nazi’s and the plethora of weekend para-military lunatic groups only give all gun owners a bad name and an excuse by the Far Left to go after modern weapons with a vengeance.

    The Far Left do not have to result to any propaganda because when the public sees such activities and cold blooded murder live on the news that the Charlottesville Nazi’s committed the general public not only panics but is outraged as well. Shades of Kristallnacht in Nazi Germany have not been forgotten and should not be permitted to happen again in any country let alone the U.S. The new proposed law when viewed in this context is not so radical at all. Its called being civilized.

    It must be remember that patriotic Americans fought and destroyed the Nazi’s in Germany and it would be pure sacrilege to their memories and sacrifices to let the Nazi’s rise again under Herr Drumpf in the U.S.

    I personally do not see any of the far out panic the Far Right is already screaming about come to pass and the harassment of ordinary decent law abiding gun owners assembling or training people in self defense classes goes hand in hand with many States issuing concealed carry permits. That is already legal and required to get a concealed carry permit.

    I personally would have certainly nothing to fear from the proposed Virginia law because we are speaking of a law designed to come down hard on dangerous fanatical Herr Drumpf Nazi’s advocating violence and murder and the overthrow of the government. Torch light parades with shouts of the “Jews will not replace us” along with armed Herr Drumpf Nazi’s terrorizing the community of Charlottsville North Carolina certainly brought all this on. The heavily armed storm trooper Herr Drumpf Nazi’s even terrorized a Jewish Church when it was conducting a service. Its surprising this proposed law did not come sooner, say in North Carolina instead as the public will sleep easier at night knowing that marching Herr Drumpf Nazi’s will think twice next time they have a torch light parade and will not dare again to advocate racial genocide or deliberately run down innocent pedestrians with smiles on their storm trooper faces. Shades of Nazi Germany all over again.

    I do not advocate any of the coming Virginia gun bans but———-

    I do support coming down hard on Herr Drumpf Nazi’s screaming genocide in full view of hundreds of news cameras broadcasting the jack booted terror world wide, only this time it was not in Germany , it was right here in the U.S. Yes the man hole covers were unlocked over the sewers of hate letting out hordes of Nazi rats reminiscent of the propaganda film “Triumph of the Will” only this time by a smiling Herr Drumpf shouting his Nazi Rats were “nice people” and his adoring cheering glazed eyed followers carrying torches, and waving modern flag versions of the swastika and longing for the good old days of marching jackboots, on cobblestone streets and the pounding of drums and shouts of “blood and iron” followed by more shouts of “Heil Drumpf, Mein Fuhrer”

    The entire Nation should have this law because the survival of our Democracy depends on it. The Constitution gives equal rights to all not just the ruling privileged White “good old boys” with their whips to be used on slaves and their ever present hangmen’s ropes for everyone else but them when their slaves do not tow the “party line”. They are the real destroyers of the 1st Amendment and always have been, not the proposed Virginia law which seeks to avoid a repeat of Nazi mass murder and genocide.

    God and the ghosts of our WWII heroes are on the side of Truth, Justice and the American way which protects all races, all creeds and all religions.

    1. avatar Winning says:

      F U asshole. This proposed law has nothing to do with white supremacists. Your diatribe of pathetic excuses is fantasy in your mind. Do you feel are warm and fuzzy to preach your bullshit on a gun site. The President, Donald J. Trump, (that is his name you jerk off), never in any way stated the lie you wrote. You can take your bullshit rant and shove it where you love to take it.

      1. avatar Rubiconcrossed says:

        You are in error. More Adventures is correct. Trump did indeed call the Nazi Torch Bearers “nice people” it was broadcast all over the world and millions and millions of people saw it and heard it and reacted in shock and horror. No one ever thought a U.S. President would ever call Nazi’s “nice people”. You can Google up his response if you wish. Of course I would imagine State Run Trump News (Foxy News) probably never broadcast that part of his speech. France24 did, as well as DW News, Tokyo News, NHK World, NPR, BBC News, MSNBC, Aljazeera News just to name a few who broadcasted it. This was one of his biggest political blunders Trump made and it will cost him millions of U.S. votes in 2020.

        1. avatar Vinny says:

          To set the record straight;

          “Excuse me, they didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me, I saw the same pictures you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.”

          After another question at that press conference, Trump became even more explicit:

          “I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.”

          President Trump’s succinct and direct words:

          “Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans.”

          *https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/03/21/trump_didnt_call_neo-nazis_fine_people_heres_proof_139815.html

        2. avatar Redacted says:

          Literally the definition of fake news. Thanks Vinny for putting the truth up. You dislike Trump and are willfully ignoring the facts of the matter. Go watch the video. You won’t. But you could easily and that would destroy your opinion so you won’t.

        3. avatar Miner49er says:

          The central problem is the support for Robert E Lee, I know Val trader who took up arms against the United States of America.

          We should have no statues or parks named for traitors who engaged in armed insurrection against the duly constituted government of the United States of America. General Lee is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of American citizens serving their country and defending liberty.

          Robert E Lee was an oath breaker.

        4. avatar Merle 0 says:

          Miner you have a severe lack of knowledge about the civil war. And no, I’m not talking about the “it wasn’t about slavery” argument, either. But you sure think you do. But thankfully the men who fought that war, both north and south, weren’t as stupid as you are.

        5. avatar Someone says:

          Fake news is putting it too nicely. All the leftist “news” propaganda outlets are simply dirty liars. Funny how the local progressives rushed to pile up on this long known lie.

          Is it time to take a page out of leftist rulebook and scream “ANTI WHITE RACISM!!!” every time someone mocks or criticizes Trump? The only possible reason for not liking the President is hatred for whites, right? I mean, it worked that way with half black Obama.

        6. avatar moreadventuresonotherplanets says:

          Nice Try Vinny at laying a smoke screen for Trump and his supporting storm troopers. What you are quoting was Trumps follow up speech when he was criticized by the entire world for calling the Nazi’s nice people.

          And no Vinny there were not nice people on the Nazi side. They were carrying torches and screaming “The Jews will not Replace us”. Hitlers Nazi’s said the same and worse. There was no doubt about who they were and what they were. Plain and simple they were extremely dangerous Nazi’s and they were proud of it. Trying to imply otherwise Vinny is really an insult to anyone who is reasonably intelligent and unbiased.

          And you forgot to mention the two storm troopers heavily armed that were staking out a Jewish Synagogue filled with worshipers. Vinny are you going to tell us these two Nazi’s were also nice people and that they were not Nazi’s.

        7. avatar jwm says:

          So, miner. No parks or monuments to kapo bloomberg, bill and hillary, schiff? Thanks for agreeing about traitors.

        8. avatar Void says:

          Well this string pretty much sums up know your leftist troll for identification purposes.

    2. avatar OBOB says:

      okay….who left the idiot gate open again???

    3. avatar strych9 says:

      Jesus brah. I’m not sure who’s worse. You or that guy who won’t STFU about ZOG.

      That this point he’s probably winning since he’s out there assuring black folks that they’re not actually black but… damn son, you’re in the running.

    4. avatar Merle 0 says:

      Militias founded this country. The US Army and Navy was once only a militia. They were also considered “terrorists”, “insurgents”, and “traitors.” There is absolutely nothing illegal, immoral, or wrong about militias. Having personally been around a number of militias, I can also tell you the vast majority of them are not racially motivated in any way, and there are a few who are far more component then most nations standing armies. In fact, many militias have charters that totally discourage any racial discrimination.

    5. avatar Ing says:

      I think you’ve had a few too many adventures on other planets. Which one do you think you’re on right now, anyway?

    6. avatar Ansel Hazen says:

      People like you are why Trump got elected in 2016 and because all of you are having a lot more trouble keeping a lid on the TDS he will likely walk away with the election in 2020 in such a fashion that will make your heads explode.

      1. avatar SAFEupstateFML says:

        I would say don’t warn them as they could change their strategies but it will not matter as they would just flame either of these posts and double down on their utopia.

    7. avatar Serpent_Vision says:

      Anyone who believes that a repressive law will be used only against whatever social pariahs are called out when drumming up support for the law has a very poor grasp of history.

    8. avatar CWT says:

      So now they are paying by the word instead of by the post.

    9. avatar Chet says:

      I believe in first principles of life, liberty, and property. I believe that limited government in a constitutional republic is the best way to ensure those first principles.

      Nazism and the Klan, whether in their original or recent manifestations, are totalitarian philosophies that seek to deny life, liberty, or property to some group of people. If the ethos favors subjugation or subordination of the individual to a race, a state, a king, a church, an elite ruling class, then it is on the spectrum of more totalitarian, and anti-liberty. How do you make the logical leap that someone that believes the classical liberal ideals of the founders is on the same side of political isle as Nazis? Nazis favor less liberty. That seem like a decidedly statist, left-wing perspective.

      Some have created a neat linear political scale that allows them to conveniently assign groups to the left or right of a line of their political opponents, and then force their opponent to defend or repudiate the extremist groups absurd views. I will not apologize for those groups, or acknowledge that they are on my team, because their values do not align with mine.

      1. avatar SAFEupstateFML says:

        Chet the majority of the people throwing out the Nazi and white supremacist labels are just following Alinski’s instructions.

  13. avatar Shire-man says:

    Just gotta hold an open carry “impeach drumpf” rally. They won’t know wtf to do.

    1. avatar Merle 0 says:

      Yeah I’m pretty uncertain as to which they hate more as well. Guns or Trump. The foaming at the mouth, mentally deranged hatred of both, is neck and neck. Ask one which would they rather have, Trump gone or a total gun ban I doubt they could answer.

  14. avatar GS650G says:

    They are wasting no time turning VA into the old East Germany.

  15. avatar YankeeDespot says:

    I moved to VA from CT to escape the cold. I never thought I’d feel I need to leaveVIRGINIA due to anti gun libs. But here we are. I’m selling and heading farther south.

    1. avatar OBOB says:

      Georgia is nice…but don’t go into Florida—its a toss up in 10 years what way that pancake will flip!

  16. avatar D says:

    Lucas is precisely the tyrant that the 2A was designed to protect against

    1. avatar Someone says:

      That is exactly the reason why he wants to disarm the population and make militia illegal. When the government is afraid of the people, we have freedom. He wants it to be the other way around.

  17. avatar MLee says:

    So some dip-shit introduces some bill BFD. Bills are introduced throughout the US all the time. Many never make it out of committee. OK, so now we know about it, keep track of SENATE BILL NO. 64. There plenty of time to get butt hurt about it.

    1. avatar Gimme 10mm says:

      I admit to hating the bills being submitted right now but you are absolutely correct that being “in committee” and “being law” are very different things.

      I wish sites like TTAG would spend more time on two points when it comes to Virginia:
      – Many bills die in committee – they should advertise how to find and track a bill and how to contact one’s state legislature.
      – Terms are short and the Democratic margins are narrow (e.g. state senate is 21 Democrats to 19 Republicans). If the Democrats really want to stay in power, then need to make the majority happy. Winning a thin majority in a traditionally low turn-out election is hardly a mandate from the people.

    2. avatar Someone says:

      Even if this bill never got out of the committee, it is worth pointing it out as an example of the way these progressives think and what they want to achieve.

    3. Thank you for the reminder of why I usually don’t read comments. So you’d prefer to remain ignorant of legislation unless/until it passes, and they bend you over the table.

      Got it. I won’t cover VA anymore.

  18. avatar WI Patriot says:

    While this “bill” may or may not go into law, it’d NEVER pass muster of the SCOTUS…

    1. avatar SAFEupstateFML says:

      Current or packed? Not advocating for the latter just pointing out the stated possibility.

      1. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

        I’m confident that carrying out that threat to pack the SCOTUS will result in at the least, a guerilla insurgency against those responsible, or at the worst, something nobody wants to see…

  19. avatar SwordForTheLORDandGideon says:

    I think maybe the very purpose of these laws is to generate disorder and chaos.
    Either that or they have have some really bad stuff they want to do to you, and they don’t want you to be armed or trained. Either way, we know what their end goal is – absolute despotism.
    God Bless America.
    Father in Heaven, We cry out to you to deliver us from this scourge of tyranny, and give us the courage to stand in time of need. I’m Jesus Name. Amen.

  20. avatar Hannibal says:

    The left: “The 2nd Amendment is only about organized militias! Since you’re not in one, no guns for you!”
    The left: “You are not allowed to organize into militias!”

    neat

    1. avatar moreadventuresonotherplanets says:

      Hannibal you bring up an interesting point.

      Some years ago the Federal Government Nationalized the National Guard. It is now under their control not the individual State or States. Militias can be declared a terrorist organization and liquidated by Drones and Helicopter Gun Ships.

      American citizens overseas have been murdered by our Government at the whim of the President and without trial or due process. Its only another half step to doing this inside the U.S. The Presidency has become so powerful that now it is above the Law and Herr Drumpf has thumbed his nose at Congress and declared he is untouchable as long as he is in office. In other words he has declared himself “King”. Whats next? Will he also declare himself “A living God” as Julius Caesar once did. Don’t laugh crazed religious fanatics have already hinted they think Herr Drumpf is God.

      Attorney General Barr has screamed that “The Presidency is still not Powerful enough”. The U.S. is now in the same situation Germany was in when Hitler said and did the same thing and Herr Drumpf has insinuated he may not step down at the end of his term to the cheers of his hard core followers. Herr Drumpf has hinted he would support a civil war to keep himself in power.

      I think the new proposed Virginia law is only a back up law to be used in case the Feds do not do their duty and wipe out dangerous storm trooper Militias that are a danger to the peace and stability of the Country. With the militarization of the Police the State of Virginia is more than capable without Federal help in liquidating any out of control Militia’s showing how laughable it is when people claim another revolution would ever take place.

      Virginia’s law is in no way an attack on the right to assemble in protest, what it does do is stop dangerous Right Wing Nazi’s from threatening or killing innocent minorities as they did in Charlottesville when they threatened a Jewish Congregation with Assault rifles and a Herr Drumpf storm trooper ran down innocent people in the streets who were also protesting and doing it peacefully. The horror of the News Video is there for all to see when the Herr Drumpf Nazi’s went berserk in the streets.

      As one can see very often the real danger to gun ownership often comes from the Far Right, not the Far Left because heavily armed Nazi’s carrying torches and screaming “The Jews Will Not Replace Us” and Herr Drumpf calling them “nice people” only panics the public into screaming for more and more gun ban laws against “weapons of war”. Can you imagine what all this looks like to non-gun owners who are terrified and now support more and more assault rifle bans.

      The Charlottesville incident shocked the Nation as much as Herr Drumfs support of the Nazi’s that carried it out. If they were only there to support a Civil War Traitors Statue why I ask you did they run down and kill an innocent woman, and run other people down and seek out a Jewish Church to terrorize in the middle of the “Fog and Night” ??????

      The proposed Virginia law is long over due. Its not against peaceful protest its against Herr Drumpfs Nazi Thugs.

      1. avatar Void says:

        Most of your totalitarian fears are an administration or two off there guy. Now take your meds and go watch some TV.

        1. avatar Miner49er says:

          “Who is the best Republican president between Donald Trump and Abraham Lincoln? For most Republican respondents to a recent poll, the answer is Trump.
          In response to the question, “Which Republican president was better?,” more than half (53 percent) of GOP respondents answered “Trump,” while 47 percent answered “Lincoln.”
          The poll was conducted by The Economist magazine and polling site YouGov.com.“

  21. avatar MIO says:

    And yet The People keep voting in this trash and are becoming this trash.

  22. avatar Chris Mallory says:

    As of 2017, 41 states, including Virginia, had laws on the books banning Citizen Militias and/or paramilitary training.

    The horse has already left the barn.
    The frog is already in the pot.

    1. avatar Miner49er says:

      You are correct, the mercenary scare of the late 70s and early 80s led many state legislatures to ban para military training. It was a crazy time, and there was some concern that the legislation would even ban fathers teaching their sons how to hunt. But those fears were unfounded, the distinction was clear and the legislation has withstood judicial review over the years.

      Many folks on this list are probably too young to remember the mercenary and militia scares of 40 some years ago, look up my old pals Frank and Mavis camper for a quick thumbnail and some of the wacky goings-on. Frank was a good guy, well experienced but when he ‘attacked’ the Crystal River nuclear plant the feds got involved.

      And the murder for hire schemes didn’t help either.

  23. avatar GunnyGene says:

    What, no “grandfather” clause? 😉

  24. avatar Sam I Am says:

    Not seeing any 1st Amendment problems here; none at all. This is simply an extension of law against hate speech (only legitimate speech is protected by the 1st Amendment).

    Keep a keen eye out for the SWAT teams confiscating firearms. The strangling effect of the New Anaconda Plan is just a minor irritant, nothing to be concerned with.

    1. avatar TonyL says:

      LOL….The 1st Amendment only covers “legitimate speech”? And we wonder why our rights are being taken away…many of us are too stupid to deserve them.

      1. avatar Jim Bob says:

        Sarcasm, dude.

        1. avatar TonyL says:

          Was it? You’ll have to forgive me for missing it….it was consistent with the massive amount of stupidity that oozes from this forum.

  25. avatar Sean David says:

    When reading proposed legislation, anything they are removing is shown with a line through it, and anything they are adding is shown either underlined or in italics (it varies state by state and in what type of media you are reading the proposed changes). So when you read the text of the bill, try to remember that the first two numbered points are already the law there. They are adding the third numbered point plus making some technical changes to the statute.

    The third numbered point is troubling because it is broad enough that a march in front of a statehouse to show support for 2A issues, if anybody is armed, could be construed as a violation. All they need is for some clown to swear out a complaint saying that the march intimidated them because they saw people with firearms there and **poof** everyone there is guilty of a felony. I think those who were unarmed would beat the charge, but as written even that result is not guaranteed.

    Eventually, such convictions would likely be overturned, but this bill definitely has a chilling effect on exercise of First- and Second-Amendment rights.

    1. avatar moreadventuresonotherplanets says:

      History has already proven you in error and so have the history of the Courts. No Constitutional Right is unlimited. See my post to Sam below.

  26. avatar TonyL says:

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

    Next.

    1. avatar anonymous4goodreason says:

      “Congress shall make no law” – unless I missed something this is a state law. As written, the 1st amendment could be said to apply only to the federal level making this a state’s rights issue. Could end up being an interesting court battle. Is this protection included in the VA constitution? If not, the state could prevail. (By the way, I refuse to capitalize “state” for VA now that it’s blue).

      1. avatar RMS1911 says:

        You missed the Constitution particularly the supremacy clause and the equal protection clause. So no it’s not a states right “thing” it’s federal.

  27. avatar Sam I Am says:

    “Congress shall make no law…”

    Too late.

    Next, indeed.

  28. avatar Sam I Am says:

    “LOL….The 1st Amendment only covers “legitimate speech”?”

    You gotta keep on top of the news. The slide keeps accelerating, in all directions.

    1. avatar moreadventuresonotherplanets says:

      Sam the Constitution never intended rights to by unlimited.

      To a small degree we have that such as not being able to yell “fire” in a theater and then watch innocent people being trampled to death and laugh about it. To some degree in some cases you could sue and win if hate speech led to a persons death but that is “after the fact”. What is needed is “before the fact” and that is what most civilized industrial nations already have had for decades (the U.S. not included of course.) More laws limiting hate speech are needed that lead to violence against minorities by white supremacist hate groups like the Proud Boys, KKK , and their living God Herr Drumpf etc etc.

      One could point to the Second Amendment as well as it is not unlimited either or else you could own Atomic Bombs to nuke your neighbor if his dog pissed on your lawn. Or throw poison gas at him. Again one can see the courts long ago made it known through their decisions no Constitutional Right is unlimited. It falls under the category of just plain “common sense” something the Far Right Kooks will argue about until they are blue in the face.

      Herr Drumpfs hate speeches have resulted in a rise in hate crimes that have sky rocketed since he seized power through the corrupt Electoral College and the Russian intervention in our election of 2016. Jewish Grave Yards have been desecrated. Muslims have been gunned down coming out of churches, Black churches have been vandalized and their occupants shot down like dogs in the street by white supremacist maniacs and ditto for the people in a Jewish Church that were also massacred by another white supremacist. Examples like this are all the proof we need to put nut cases like Herr Drumpf in jail and throw the key away when they start mouthing off racist hate speeches. The German people let Hitler get away with hate speech and the world did not live happily ever after and ditto for Herr Drumpfs hate speeches as well.

      Germany clamped down on hate speech and the display of Swastika’s and other hate symbols after WWII and we should have done the same but have not. Using common sense and behaving like civilized human beings are easily understood by the courts and any normal person but the Far Right Nut Cases want unlimited rights and only for themselves. This would include 1st Amendment rights only for themselves and ditto for the Second Amendment. Sadly for too much of our history this was oh so true. Disgustingly true.

      1. avatar RMS1911 says:

        “Again one can see the courts long ago made it known through their decisions no Constitutional Right is unlimited.”
        Which article of the Constitution gives them that power?
        They have zero power to legislate from the bench.
        Doing so is subversion and sedition.
        Any one of them doing so should be executed immediately after their very short trial.

  29. avatar Jim Bob says:

    If you haven’t joined yet, now’s the time.

    Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL) membership is $25 dollars / year. https://www.vcdl.org/join-VCDL

    The Second Amendment Foundation (SAF) membership is $15 / year.
    https://www.saf.org/join-saf/

    Gun Owners of America (GOA) membership is $20 / year.
    https://gunowners.org/join/

    National Association of Gun Rights (NAGR) membership is $35 / year.
    https://nationalgunrights.org/

  30. avatar Quagmire86 says:

    Correct me if I am wrong but reading the bill that is proposed; there is no “Carve-out” for the Police, National Guard or Military. So, must all firearm training be done outside the state or not at all?

  31. avatar Robert Messmer says:

    Quote: “American citizens overseas have been murdered by our Government at the whim of the President and without trial or due process. Its only another half step to doing this inside the U.S.” Ruby Ridge, ID (1992) and Waco, TX (1993) so you see by the dates that one took place under George H. W. Bush and one took place under Bill Clinton. William Barr worked pro bono to protect the FBI sniper who shot unarmed Vicki Weaver holding her baby to death. Deval Patrict ruled that there was no unnecessary force used against the unarmed woman. Both major political parties have murdered, and continue to do so, American citizens on American soil without trial or due process.

  32. avatar Steve says:

    I am a trained range safety officer at a local gun range. I feel as part of my duty To instruct new firearms users in the basic safety rules and the use of firearms, for the safety of themselves and others. I am also a qualified self-defense instructor.
    The way this law has been The way this law has been written , I would become a felon mediately by doing my job.simply by doing my job. As per section 2

    “ 2. Assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, ”

    1. avatar moreadventuresonotherplanets says:

      Come on Steve you quoted out of context and left out the rest of rule 2 and its continuation in rule 3. Lets be truthful about the entire content of the law.

      The proposed law is not meant to stop legal training and its often training already mandated by law for the acquiring of concealed carry permits.

      The proposed law is meant to stop Far Right White Supremacist Nut cases from stirring up racist hate just as it occurred in North Carolina resulting in needless death and injury of innocent people.

      As mentioned in my above post to Sam civilized nations have had such laws against hate speech that led to violence and mass murder for decades.

      1. avatar Chet says:

        You do realize that Charlotte is in North Carolina, and Charlottesville is in Virginia? Those are different places.

        There is no such thing as hate speech. There’s speech. Unless it’s specifically calling for violence, it’s protected. Because is is unpalatable to you does not make it hate speech. Let the very few inarticulate advocates of racial superiority have their asinine ideas exposed to the free market of ideas. They will not gain much purchase, and are regularly ridiculed for their discredited theories. They have no support in any mainstream population. Stop pushing the narrative that they do, or that people that believe in an originalist interpretation of the constitution are like #basicallynazis.

        If I were to yell “fire” in a crowded theater with the intent of harming people, then I can be prosecuted after the fact. That does not mean that I am prohibited from yelling “fire” if there actually is a fire, or that the word “fire” is permanently banned from the vernacular.

        Free speech for those you agree with, and the right of self defense for those that share your worldview is not freedom. It’s tyranny.

        If this means we are not civilized like the rest of the world, then so be it. Ego sum homo indomitus.

        1. avatar moreadventuresonotherplanets says:

          “There is no such thing as hate speech. There’s speech. Unless it’s specifically calling for violence, it’s protected”

          Now your catching on. That is exactly why the Virginia Law was written. Exactly. And speech calling for violence is hate speech.

      2. avatar Chet says:

        The proposed law that is the subject of the article is a bill, meaning it has not been made into law, yet. Apparently you understand our legislative process as well as you do our geography.

        Speech specifically directing violence is already illegal. Why do we need new laws banning something already not protected as a civil right? To make it illegaler? Or is it about using boogeymen to scare the public into passing more “reasonable, common sense” speech control or gun control laws? Suburbanites that believe the post-WWII Pax Americana is the natural condition of humanity are susceptible to such manipulation. And statists who wish to eliminate that messy liberty thing in favor of their version of control and civility will exploit the opportunity.

  33. avatar Sam I Am says:

    “Sam the Constitution never intended rights to by unlimited.”
    – – Citation? Why did the founders use such unambiguous language, if the intent was amgibuity?

    “To a small degree we have that such as not being able to yell “fire” in a theater…”
    – – Correct, but irrelevant to “Congress shall make no law…”; a most unambiguous phrase.

    “To some degree in some cases you could sue and win if hate speech led to a persons death…”
    – – Any speech that leads directly to an unjustified death punishable; “hate speech” is just foolishness – everyone has a natural, human and civil to hate whomever they please…without government interference.

    “More laws limiting hate speech are needed…”
    – – Nope. The founders wouldn’t tolerate such. They were not ignorant of that which we call “hate speech”, and chose not to make an exception to the First Amendment. For example, I hate everyone who disagrees with me over anything (and that sometimes includes me). “Hate speech” is thought crime, harking back to the Inquisiton.

    “One could point to the Second Amendment as well as it is not unlimited either or else you could own Atomic Bombs…”
    – – You are really late to the game. The founders preserved the existing right of the people to possess any and all weapons of war as a deterrent to a strong national army trying to impose tyranny on the States. If a person uses their atomic bomb to kill their neighbor because of dog poop, there are legitimate statutes regarding murder.

    “Again one can see the courts long ago made it known through their decisions no Constitutional Right is unlimited.”
    – – Without clear authority. The authority to make such decisions was mere interpretation by the very agency that desired to obtain and maintain such authority. Nothing in the constitution provides the courts direct delegation to make such decision.

    It’s been fun, but you sucked yourself into the tirade, where anyone with “common sense” could easily read and understand the ridicule in the comment that generated your sophomoric rant about needing to have laws to control the very thoughts of people. That is a hallmark of tyrants throughout the ages.

    1. avatar moreadventuresonotherplanets says:

      Sam your verbal sparring aside is not rooted in reality or common sense.

      I ask you a simple question. What would you say to the mother of the young girl that was run down and killed because of the hate speech of the Far Right At Charlottesville?

      To say the Far Right Nut case that killed her was not influenced and driven to madness by hate speech or that he probably used it himself is again so divorced from the consequences of using such speech is simply to admit your not playing with a full deck of cards.

      I ask you also to look at the consequences of the Hate Speech Hitler and Trump used. Hitler was supported by people who killed millions and Trump is supported by people who condone imprisonment and the deaths of children. Now Sam we are speaking of reality not some fantasy about what the Founding Fathers meant or would have meant if they were alive today. I dare say they would have been the first to eliminate unlimited free speech. After all they did not let the common man vote as they considered that common sense as well. People who called democracy “mob rule” would not have hesitated at all to limit free speech today.

      1. avatar RMS1911 says:

        “What would you say to the mother of the young girl that was run down and killed because of the hate speech of the Far Right At Charlottesville?”
        The mother of that fatass libturd admitted on camera her daughter died of a heart attack not being “run over”

    2. avatar moreadventuresonotherplanets says:

      “If a person uses their atomic bomb to kill their neighbor because of dog poop, there are legitimate statutes regarding murder.”

      Sam if you think you can make an atomic bomb and not be thrown in jail if you do not use it then try and use that defense in court. Again you ignore reality and cannot separate it from prior Founding Father Philosophy which the courts have rendered “non-sequitur”. You do realize or should that you have no rights under the Constitution. Its always been a complete farce. Its the legislature and the courts that grant you your rights not the Constitution. The Constitution is a document people worship but do not follow or take seriously. Our entire Nations history proves it over and over again. You can live in reality or you can live in your fantasies but your fantasies are not and never will be reality.

  34. avatar Alan says:

    How did this woman obtain elective, law making office is an interesting question.

  35. avatar Sam I Am says:

    “By the way, I refuse to capitalize “state” for VA now that it’s blue”

    Capitalization ended shortly after the 14th Amendment was ratified. About that same period, the description of the nation changed from “The United States Are…”, to “The United States is…”. Complete inversion of the power structure between the central government, and its sovereign rulers (the States, as directed by “the People” of those States).

  36. avatar Richard Steven Hack says:

    Re martial arts: That was my first thought on reading the word “technique” in that law. Virginia dojos better watch out.

    The real problem is the vague term ‘civil disorder”. Cops can determine almost any group of people as constituting a “civil disorder” if the group is slow in obeying an order to disperse – and cops can always find a reason to give that order even if you’re entirely obeying all the city ordinance rules about assembly.. Sure, you get to talk to a judge eventually – but by then, you’re basically considered “guilty by cop” because the cop’s testimony is almost always given more weight than the defense.

    This is why a “nation of laws, not men” will never work – because men write and interpret the laws. And there’s no such thing as “unbiased.”

    Trust me, it’s going to get worse – because it always does, historically.

    As someone said, “If it’s time to hide your guns, it’s time to dig them up again.” Survivalist Selco had an article recently about how the Bosnia situation developed into civil war. He basically asks his US readers to think “does this seem familiar?” Because it does.

  37. avatar Sam I Am says:

    “To say the Far Right Nut case that killed her was not influenced and driven to madness by hate speech…”
    – – Hate speech is not synonymous with madness. The idea that hate speech exist ismadness. The idea that suppressed speech will end a disfavored behavior is devoid of common sense.
    – – I would say to anyone who is the victim, or relative of an innocent killed through accident or intention: “I cannot imagine your pain, or circumstance. The person who did this should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, as soon a possible.”
    – – When you (anyone) are dead, the how, or why, is totally inconsequential to the dead person. Hate speech and hate crimes are nothing more than revenge, vigilantism under color of law.
    – – Preventing any form of speech does nothing to prevent anyone from becoming “mad”; too many other stimuli that would result in madness to single out just one cause.
    – – It wasn’t “hate speech” that resulted in Hitler’s rampage against Jews, it was speech that resonated with the populace. It mattered not whether “hate” was the motivating factor, or that the populace was convinced that genocide was necessary to ensure survival and/or prosperity for the nation.
    – – A speaker can be totally indifferent to the means of exterminating a segment of society, or even the “need” for extermination. Simple calculation: survival of the people requires non-survival of other people; more resources divided among fewer recipients.

    Just as demonization of a people, a tribe, a nation is evil, so is the concept of “hate” whatever, because it is merely a pretense for suppressing inconvenience to the powerful.

    1. avatar moreadventuresonotherplanets says:

      ” – Hate speech is not synonymous with madness. The idea that hate speech exist ismadness. The idea that suppressed speech will end a disfavored behavior is devoid of common sense.”

      History has proven you wrong twice (at the very least). It was hate speech that propelled both Trump and Hitler to power. When people begin to believe that hate and mass murder is acceptable because they hear that “it is” over and over again then it becomes acceptable. That’s Psychology 101 Sam. You must have flunked it in college. Hate speech is then used to justify mass murder and then the public looks the other way even if its technically still illegal as it was illegal in Nazi Germany. The current rise in violence in the U.S. over Trumps hate speech has had its terrible consequences with people being murdered and children being put in concentration camps were some of them died needlessly. The consequences of hate speech result in telling people its acceptable to hate and kill if they do not agree with someone or they fear another race. In conclusion yes indeed you can modify the majority of the peoples behavior if they are shown by good example that hate speech is unacceptable and they will be prosecuted for using it. People on the edge of sanity are indeed often pushed “over the edge” by hearing hate speech. No law is effective 100 per cent of the time but to condone hate speech because laws against it are not 100 per cent effective is about like telling people we now will have no law against stealing or murder or rape because its not effective 100 per cent of the time. Laws like the ones just mentioned are passed for a very good reason and that is what sets us apart from the beasts in wild.

  38. avatar Sam I Am says:

    “And speech calling for violence is hate speech.”

    What an immature, self-centered, white privileged mind you have.

    Once upon a time, I sat through a number of speeches that told me, implored me, directed me to visit terminal violence on others. I was exhorted to kill and maim as many of the “other” as I could, as fast as I could, in order to protect me, my family, my tribe, and a myriad of tribes threatened by “the other”. I agreed with the speaker(s), that terminal violence was necessary, and a positive for those opposing “the other”. I was prepared and armed such at to kill “the other” in prodigious numbers (millions if necessary), until “the other” ceased being a threat, or ceased to exist at all.

    I had no hatred for “the other”, no feelings at all (an attitude towards me evidenced by “the other”). I did not “hate”. I was simply indifferent to the pain and suffering to be visited upon “the other”. There were rumors that the “other” did actually hate me and my tribe (and tribes we agreed to protect). I didn’t bother to determine of that was true or not.

    The speech encouraging violence upon the “other” was not hate speech. The fact that such speech resulted in terrible violence on “the other” did not change anything regarding hate, love, kindness, fairness, or mental condition (creating “hate”). “Other” were simply targets to be removed, nothing more.

    1. avatar moreadventuresonotherplanets says:

      “Once upon a time, I sat through a number of speeches that told me, implored me, directed me to visit terminal violence on others. I was exhorted to kill and maim as many of the “other” as I could, as fast as I could, in order to protect me, my family, my tribe, and a myriad of tribes threatened by “the other”. I agreed with the speaker(s), that terminal violence was necessary, and a positive for those opposing “the other”. I was prepared and armed such at to kill “the other” in prodigious numbers (millions if necessary), until “the other” ceased being a threat, or ceased to exist at all.

      I had no hatred for “the other”, no feelings at all (an attitude towards me evidenced by “the other”). I did not “hate”. I was simply indifferent to the pain and suffering to be visited upon “the other”. There were rumors that the “other” did actually hate me and my tribe (and tribes we agreed to protect). I didn’t bother to determine of that was true or not.

      The speech encouraging violence upon the “other” was not hate speech. The fact that such speech resulted in terrible violence on “the other” did not change anything regarding hate, love, kindness, fairness, or mental condition (creating “hate”). “Other” were simply targets to be removed, nothing more.”

      Reply

      Sam you are intelligent but many years ago we were told that although there are many very intelligent people but their intelligence is not an indicator of being either sane or insane. In other words intelligence often has nothing to do with sanity. Its something I never forgot.

      Until this post I always thought you were just a zealot for the Constitution but after reading what you just wrote I must say its chilling to say the least and that you are not the person I previously thought you were.

      I must be about the same age and both of us must have been draft age during the Vietnam War. What you just admitted to as to your mind set during those years and your experiences in the military were not the same as mine. I was never fooled or indoctrinated by the Military Mind set. I knew killing was wrong and I was well aware of how the Military brainwashes, lies and fools and poisons the minds of gullible immature young men. I am sure if I would have been drafted I would have been kicked out of the military the first day I was there. It would have bothered my conscious to kill people just because I was told to do so and not question “Why”. History proved me right in many ways and I take great satisfaction in knowing that what I did was morally right. I have no Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome because I did nothing wrong and the people who threatened me for not wanting to “kill the enemy” were all proved wrong by history. I was the grandson of immigrants and I grew up in a multicultural setting. I did not fear or hate foreign people because I spoke to them every day and was not taught to hate and I knew foreign people were human beings just like me and no they were not all hell bent on taking anything from us or even wanting to emigrate here or invade us as that was government propaganda. To fear and not understand your fellow human beings is to turn to hate. Its a well known fact that people who live on the border with Mexico and know immigrants personally for the most part do not fear or hate them because they know them personally. The people who are the most fearful are people who do not know “the other” and imagine and believe all the hate rhetoric they hear. The hate speech propels them often to murderous violence. If they were hearing the opposite every day even though they had never met “the other” many would not have the paranoia or fear or hate towards them. This is in a nut shell is what the Virginia law is trying to accomplish and that is the suppression of hate speech which in turn leads to mass murder and violence. It does not matter what technically the constitution says , what matters is how we avoid conflict and violence and hate speech does no person any good nor does it do the nation any good. Its a disaster for everyone. Today because of Trumps hate speech the Nation is more divided than ever and people are wondering if it will indeed destroy us.

      The new proposed Virginia law is to be lauded as commendable and desirable and it will save lives as previous history has previously proven it and also proven when you do not have it how many millions of lives are soon lost. For that I am willing to make exceptions to any technical or misunderstood facets of the Constitution. Saving lives is paramount and lets leave the lofty constitutional rhetoric for flag waving day which no one pays much attention to anyway especially the courts, its just common sense.

      1. avatar jwm says:

        vlad. You are again lying. I cannot use your real name because you whined to dan zimmerman about it and got me threatened with a ban. So I won’t. But we both know I know who you are. If you’re a day over 30, judging by your facebook pictures, I would be surprised.

        You were never old enough to see the draft. You were never in the military. If you cannot make a point without lies you have no point to make.

  39. avatar Sam I Am says:

    “Sam if you think you can make an atomic bomb and not be thrown in jail if you do not use it then try and use that defense in court.”

    Implied nothing of the sort. The belief that withholding a tool from the public because of what might happen is pre-crime punishment.

    Your childish stance is that tools drive behavior; manifestly unprovable. My comment was related to the purpose for the Second Amendment, which has no pretense of protecting oneself from self-inflicted harm, or harm to others due to personal negligence.

    Reality today is that the Constitution has been corrupted by mush-brained adolescents walking about in adult skin and costume. The very government that is to be disciplined by potential force of arms held by the citizenry arrogated to itself the power to determine which weapons the people may have as a means to discipline government.

    What you seek is a government that governs by the consent of the privileged, the elites, the politicians, not the consent of the people from whom government derives any power at all. Freedom and liberty are disruptive, scary. Let me provide you with a bit of meaningful, blunt philosophy anchored in fiction:
    “If you can’t take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It’s not safe out here. It’s wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires, both subtle and gross. But it’s not for the timid.”

    1. avatar moreadventuresonotherplanets says:

      “What you seek is a government that governs by the consent of the privileged, the elites, the politicians, not the consent of the people from whom government derives any power at all. Freedom and liberty are disruptive, scary. Let me provide you with a bit of meaningful, blunt philosophy anchored in fiction:”

      Sam you know or should know that the present government is a ruling oligarchy of the super rich and always has been from day one of this nation. It is not and never has been a democracy. When the Founders could no longer keep control of the government because they had to finally start giving bit by bit more and more people the right to vote they quickly introduced democracy destroying Gerrymandering and the corrupt Electoral College. The American revolution did not give us our freedom from Britain but rather enslaved us in a new nation founded for and by the filthy rich and to this day deprived us of a parliamentary government and true democracy.

      “quote————-What you seek is a government that governs by the consent of the privileged, the elites, the politicians, not the consent of the people———-quote

      No you are wrong in your speculation about what I want but we both agree on the substance of what are government currently is. Its just that we disagree on how to rectify the situation. Since I am a Historian I more than you realize my view is the correct one because history has already proven me right. Both pure Capitalism and pure Communism have been a disaster for the working man and I am speaking of economic systems devoid of murderous dictators who have infested and corrupted both forms of these economic systems. Modern Socialism has proven you wrong Sam as every industrialized nation on earth is Socialistic, even we are to a small degree. Unregulated Capitalism has in the U.S. murdered over 150,000 people just last year alone as compared to the 10 year loss of roughly 60,000 men in Vietnam and bankrupted another 5 million people due to lack of health care and affordable drugs showing how corrupt and hideous our present system is.

      Pure Communism which is a state controlled economy became extinct decades ago because it proved unworkable as well. What has been an overwhelming success is modern day Socialism. Socialism is not the jailer or master over Capitalism but merely its watch dog which prevents blind greed from not only needlessly causing the premature deaths of innocent people but the certain destruction of the entire planet due to excess pollution driven again by blind greed. We can indeed have affordable health care and drug care because Socialism makes the filthy rich pay their far share of taxation. Trumps latest tax rape law was the epitome of blind greed and corruption. Economic experts have long know that even taxing the super rich as little as 5 per cent would pay for National Health Care. During the Republican Eisenhower years some categories of taxation were as high as 90 per cent on the super rich yet we still had a thriving economy and a much more fair distribution of wealth.

      When you couple the fact that we squander over 54 cents of every tax dollar on endless wars of rape, pillage and conquest it is no wonder where all our money is being spent and we have no money left over for social programs. Experts have said we are now approaching the chilling total of people killed in our wars to the number of people killed by the German Nazi’s of WWII and it has done nothing for us except bankrupt the nation.

      Our present system is not working and when smaller nations have had Socialistic National Health care and affordable drugs that have been in place for decades and decades it should tell even the mentally challenged that whatever they are doing they are doing right and whatever we are doing as been an absolute disaster.

  40. avatar Chris T in KY says:

    Don’t worry. You will still be able to parade around in public with a strap on dildo. Well fitted for public attire. In the old dominion. The democrats will make sure you have your “bread and circuses”.

  41. avatar anonymous4goodreason says:

    My god you’re an idiot! Where do you get this tripe? I guess the Texan that shot up the El Paso Walmart loved the South & Central Americans he shot? I guess the minutemen guarding the borders when the Obama led government wouldn’t love them too? I guess everyone just loves MS13 and all the other gangs, cartels, etc.,etc., etc. (Well, maybe in San Francisco they do). Get real.

    Are you bragging that you dodged the draft? You’re just another coward that pretends to be enlightened. Please get lost or at least STFU!

    1. avatar moreadventuresonotherplanets says:

      “Are you bragging that you dodged the draft? You’re just another coward that pretends to be enlightened. Please get lost or at least STFU!”

      Well at least you understood something of my post. Yes I damn well am bragging I avoided an immoral, unjust, obscene war. Anyone who would argue otherwise in regards to that war has learned zero from history. I did this because even at a young age I was taught “how to think” not “what to think”. Again History proved me right.

      And by the way the nut case that did shoot up the Walmart was from out of state and did not know Mexican immigrants personally. He stated that.

  42. avatar anonymous4goodreason says:

    Don’t know how that got messed up, I was replying to moreadventuresonotherplanets

  43. avatar Sam I Am says:

    “It would have bothered my conscious to kill people just because I was told to do so and not question “Why”.”

    I knew precisely “why”. Had no problem with it. There are a lot of old marines who are alive today because of it. A lot of army. Didn’t mean I had to bend my mind, agonize over the decision. Didn’t mean I was deluded. I just had no compunction over saving “mine”, and eradicating “theirs”. Years after, I worked for a company founded by refugees we were protecting. I apologized for not being victorious, for not preserving their way of life. But no apology for trying.

    Yes, I am a zealot for the original concepts, principles and vision of the framers of the constitution. No apology there, either.

    1. avatar moreadventuresonotherplanets says:

      to Sam

      “I apologized for not being victorious, for not preserving their way of life. But no apology for trying”

      I assume you are talking about Vietnamese Refugees to the U.S. Sorry but the Vietnam of today is far different from the Vietnam that you knew that was a split country and full of corruption in the South. Vietnamese who have been interviewed in the last few years are correct when they state their country today is economically better off than it ever was before and in fact it has one of the fasts growing economies in South East Asia. Trumps new idiotic trade war has provided an even bigger economic boom to the country as the Chinese have move some production to Vietnam to avoid the trade war.

      Europeans who vacation in Vietnam report much the same news and far from being enslaved the Vietnamese are now a free country devoid of European or Asian enslavement. The people have stated that “we are far better off today than when the American invaded our country” and totally without the permission of our President at that time. He was simply told “the Americans are coming”.

      Its interesting to note that today the U.S. Military is giving military aid to Vietnam so they can be a bulwark against Chinese expansion in S.E. Asia something that came about 75 years too late as we should have done that at the end of WWII instead of supporting the greedy French that had enslaved the country for 85 years and raped the millions of dollars of rice and rubber profits (Vietnam supplies 1/3 of the worlds rice and 3/4 of the worlds natural rubber supply.) Now you know the real reasons U.S. greed monger businessmen had the military invade the country after the French were kicked out. But then again even a person who flunked history usually knows when one country invades another its over blind greed and the French and U.S. were no exceptions to the rule. Only the uneducated fell for the laughable “domino theory”. Its as much a joke today as it was back then. Fifty plus years later we are still waiting for the second domino to fall.

  44. avatar Sam I Am says:

    Understood.

    The comment section has some limits on the number of indentations permitted under a comment. If in doubt, it is safe to start with “@whoeveryouareaddressing”, then enter the response.

  45. avatar Sam I Am says:

    “It is not and never has been a democracy.”

    Well….you finally got something right.

    1. avatar moreadventuresonotherplanets says:

      to Sam

      ““It is not and never has been a democracy.”

      Well….you finally got something right.”

      You seem to be reveling in the fact of this obscenity. You also completely contradict yourself as a moment ago you were screaming from the roof tops that the Government should be by the people and for the people but this is an impossibility with a Representative Government who by its very historical nature has Represented only the corrupt rich and powerful not the people.

  46. avatar Sam I Am says:

    Following your logic, present day relations with Japan and Germany are proof WW2 was unjust.

    Generally, I enjoy drawing pompous people into saying idiot things in public, for all to see; generally. However, folks like you make it so easy as to almost not be fun anymore; almost.

    Elephants never forget. You stated that any speech that results in violence is hate speech. Asked for proof, you were silent. Pointed to a situation where speech leading to violence did not involve hate, you put your hands in your pockets and quietly strolled away. You bring a cupcake to a knife fight. No intellectual challenge.

    1. avatar moreadventuresonotherplanets says:

      to Sam

      quote——————Following your logic, present day relations with Japan and Germany are proof WW2 was unjust.————–quote

      No that’s your illogical fantasy.

      The Vietnam War and WWII are about like comparing apples to oranges they are both fruits but they are different. And WWII is far to complicated to go into in this thread. I might add though that it was a U.S. trade war that set off the Japanese to attack us in WWII and it was the U.S. that attacked Japan first with our mercenary air force in the China/Japan war that pre-dated Pearl Harbor. Just a few tid bits for the Far Right Flag Wavers who think Japan attacked us first at Pearl Harbor. I will not even get into the cipher machines of Britain and the U.S.

      You can act arrogantly but you were trashed on your rants about unlimited constitutional rights as apposed to the reality of historic court decisions and your really bizarre rantings about hate speech being a right and not having a direct influence on the mentally ill that often times push them over the edge to act most violently because of its influence. Any normal person not even a product of higher education can see the insanity of your remarks.

  47. avatar moreadventuresonotherplanets says:

    to Sam

    quote—————-You stated that any speech that results in violence is hate speech. Asked for proof, you were silent.—————–quote

    No you stated that not me. I will put it on the six grade level so even you can understand it. Hate speech is like forcing more and more pressure into a cooking pressure cooker until it finally explodes into violence. I cannot make it any more simple than that so lets not try and twist things, its not working for you.

    Really, you must not have read a damn thing as to all the historical facts I gave you on the results of hate speech. No proof, sorry but a 6th grader would have understood the history presented to you. Maybe its not your fault your probably hitting the bottle too hard tonight it happens to people who have done things that they regret. And if not maybe you need to get together with Lt. William Calley to relive “the good old days”. He claims he has no regrets either. The chilling thing is that he is probably telling the truth for once in his life.

  48. avatar Sam I Am says:

    “Was it? You’ll have to forgive me for missing it….it was consistent with the massive amount of stupidity that oozes from this forum.”

    You can always apply for a transfer out. Why waste time here?

  49. avatar Angry American says:

    Isn’t this why the revolution started back with Washington? What the hell does the government due besides waisting time and money on impeachment and trying to take away more of our freedoms and raising taxes? Starts to sound like what we fought to get away from now we need safe rooms and transtesticles in women’s bathrooms!!! Middle class pays for these fools to take more and more from us, still haven’t see what my taxes pay for lately besides Clinton clones and Epstein’s murder!!!

  50. avatar ROPE Justice! says:

    ROPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ITS LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOG OVERDUE!!!!!!!!!

    It always works!!

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