A crazed man’s rampage came to a not-so-sudden end Saturday morning in Montgomery County Maryland, and a bystander caught it all on video. After striking a lone deputy twice with a long stick, the attacker took a dozen rounds while still advancing on the officer.
It looked like the stuff of nightmares. The attacker looked more like a college professor with his sport coat and khaki pants than a would-be cop-killing lunatic. The wicked grin on his face added a freaky, horror-film feel as the man just kept advancing on the retreating deputy. That was after he broke a long piece of wood with a couple of blows over the deputy’s forearm.
The story from WUSA says the man caused a couple of accidents by ramming other vehicles before the deputy arrived.
The incident happened around 8 a.m. Saturday. Montgomery County police received several 911 calls Saturday morning of a man driving erratically in the area. Police Chief Marcus Jones said two cars were struck by the driver before the deputy arrived on the scene.
When the deputy arrived, he saw the man approaching two people with a large wooden stick, according to Sheriff Darren Popkin. When the deputy intervened, the deputy and the man began fighting, and the man struck the deputy at least once with the piece of wood.
The deputy attempted to deploy his Taser, according to Popkin. When he wasn’t successful, the deputy shot the man, the sheriff said.
Here’s the video. It’s NSFW because of the violence and the language used in the color commentary by the man recording the incident from inside his car.
There are a lot of lessons here for those who carry a gun for personal defense.
First off, distance gives you time and time gives you options. Options often mean safety. This deputy faced an adversary with a very long stick and the willingness to use it as a weapon. The cop did the best he could given his mobility (or lack thereof) to create some distance. But let’s face it, this cop wasn’t going to out-backpedal his attacker.
If any of us find ourselves facing an attacker with an edged weapon or blunt-force instrument, your mind should be thinking distance and obstacles. Both with give you time to consider options. The Tueller drill is widely taught for a reason.
Secondly, the deputy showed good tactics by continuing to move while firing. Hence why all of us should “get off the X” and practice firing while moving. Not all ranges allow this, but if you are able to find locations or opportunities to shoot on the move in practice, do so. It might save you from death or great bodily injury someday.
Next, this surely looks like a “failure to stop” after being shot with the first few rounds. That may suggest the attacker had concealed body armor under his clothes. In these cases, one should hunt the head as a target of opportunity, but the pelvic region moves a lot slower. This one is shooter’s choice. In the end, the bad guy finally went down…after twelve(!) rounds. That’s a good thing, because Deputy Dog likely only had three or four left in the magazine.
Keep a link to this video on your phone. It should be played every time a gun control advocate or politician suggests that no one needs more than ten rounds in a magazine.
For those of us carrying single-stack 9mm or .380 pistols, or .38 revolvers, the attacker here would have probably gone hands-on with you after you exhausted your 5, 6 or 7 rounds. And it’s difficult to pull off a reload with someone’s pounding on your melon. Between missed shots and ineffective hits, you need to be prepared for what happens next if your snubbie or Ruger LCP runs dry before an attacker runs out of attack.
We all know there are a lot of crazy people wandering around society today. This deputy simply had the misfortune of running into one on a Saturday morning in February. Unlike the rest of us, the deputy couldn’t simply employ the Nike defense and run away. The unidentified deputy did, however, appear to exhaust every avenue of avoidance even at the risk of injury to himself before finally stopping the threat.
Lastly, the deputy made a couple of mistakes, but on the whole, he stood between the innocent people of his community and what appears to have been a crazed lunatic. This situation could have been a lot worse if Professor Longstick had attacked a mother and her infant or toddler as part of his rampage before one or more cops arrived. For that, we should all be thankful for that deputy’s actions.
.9mm and lots of them
I would 100% need to change my pants after this. I has a dream 2 nights a go where for some reason I was in LA (i live in the midwest) and I needed to shoot a guy who looked like the Rock. i, for some reason, only has a .32 on me and emptied the entire gun into his chest and it did zero. He still came at me and I still needed to run. The one major thing I still remember about the dream was how horrible I felt for needing to engage someone with my gun. I felt terrible and woke up visibly shaken.
I’ve had a couple of bad dreams where I had to shoot someone. In both, time slowed to a crawl at the moment of truth and what I remember most is being so sad & angry that this person was making me shoot them and that was the LAST thing I wanted to do…
I’ve had plenty of those as well. Time always does slow down to a virtual standstill at trigger-pulling time.
I wouldn’t call them bad dreams, though. I mean, they’re not *good* ones (except for a couple where everything went perfectly and the goblins really *needed* to die), but they’re not like full-on nightmares or anything. I tend to process a lot of things through what I’d call “nervous” dreaming, the kind of long, rambling dreams where nothing really works properly and things always go wrong in very weird ways.
One side effect of all those DGU dreams is that I’ve gotten a LOT better at manipulating my weapons and taking out the bad guys in them. 🙂
Your subconscious thoughts of what the .32 is capable of do not reflect reality.
Heads and hips, no center mass. Your dreams and the deputy need to understand there is a reason for that…regardless of caliber.
If you shoot center mass do it between the nipples not in the belly.
Yep, head is a kill, the pelvis is an instant put down especially if you hit the base of the spinal cord/vertebrae.
Hi Andy. Why “no center mass?” That’s all anyone hears, when training. Curious to hear your explanation. Thanks!
There’s a great article on Revolverguy.com September 20th 2020 about that very thing titled “The Gunfighters dream”.
Whose the pos racist narrating this?
That’s what I want to know.
Talking about privileged. Shit they’re more privileged than the White race.
No shit there what if that was a black man walking up on a white cop he would swear he wasn’t doing anything wrong and the cop killed him for no reason that’s how the narrator would tell it.
100%. What a double standard
@HIM That’s the first thing I thought of when he said white privilege. He’s pointing one finger with 4 pointing back. The racist is the person recording.
I’d love to get his take on the Fergusson Michael Brown justified shooting. “Killed his privileged ass.”
So far, known only as Instagram user “Black man kizzle (@jkthegoodguy)”
Exactly. If it was a black assailant he would have been crying like a bitch on the phone to al sharpton while filming
Yeah racist filth.
I’m certain that BLM won’t complain! 🤣
That’s what o was thinking? What was his comment, “ thought he was privileged “?
A good citizen you moron! Why is he racist, he provided what, even today, will provide indisputable evidence by an impartial whitness,that the deputy did his job, as good as any human being could under the situation he faced at that time and place.
Did you ever have to shoot, kill someone, especially this close!? Eye to eye, face to face, probably smelling the guys breath!?
The deputy and even the citizen are heroes, for having courage and the mindset to find the ‘perfect storm’ to what is a danger to police and innocent citizens today in this upside-down world we live in!
Kudos to them!
But know that the deputy will have to learn how to live with HAVING TO KILL SOMEONE in the line of DUTY. I have had to for almost 50yrs now, i had know choice………
yea i could do without his ignorant racist rant
He isn’t racist you are the racist for thinking it!
The commentary wasn’t needed but if he were black no damn way he would be able to charge and hit an Officier like this without a shot already being fired!!
Just stop and think, think if the roles were reversed and it was a white man in the car, cheering up, “Shoot him, shoot him already!”. Black man being shot instead.
The media , oh the self-righteous media, the even self-righteous woke social media couldn’t get enough. I’m fairly certain it would be a perfectly good excuse to burn and loot everything again. Officer would loose his job and the man in the van.. would be harassed like there’s no tomorrow.
Double standards at their finest, mark my words.
Someone who needs to die painfully.
You have a conscience. In today’s world it’s hard to find. I would like to think that if I had to defend myself or someone else I could but I would never be the same again.
Just watched a documentary about a British soldier who killed his first man during WW2. All keyboard warriors should watch it.
I feel bad for the guy getting shot. He was probably just tired and had enough of dealing with all the shitty people in the world trying to force you to do stuff you don’t want to do. The world is filled with mostly shitty people, Karen’s, tyrants, and a variation of beggars, and manipulative people and liars. Sometimes you just have to ram some cars and suicide yourself with cops.
If you think suicide by cop is something ‘you just have to”, you need as much restraint, counseling, mental health administration as that guy with the stick in the video
In the case of .9 mm, I’d suggest about 120 rounds would suffice, considering a 10 to 1 ratio.
He needed that 45mm handgun the NYT talked about.
Hell, *I* need one of those!
I have one of those.
Yes, a 1.772″ caliber handgun would be a superior option.
He needed to shoot him in the head at that distance.
.45acp, slightly less than a half inch in diameter, 25.4mm is an inch, 45mm? Don’t think so…….
Remember, scaling all dimensions by x0.1 means one tenth the diameter, one hundredth the cross-section, one thousandth the volume or mass.
“In the case of .9 mm, I’d suggest about 120 rounds would suffice, considering a 10 to 1 ratio.”
The size of the firearm that uses .9mm is so small that 120 .90mm rounds might not be possible, even with an extended mag. Thinking one would need some sort of belt feed to manage 120 rounds of .9mm in a compatible firearm.
Everyone knows the .9mm is the ultimate manstopper. That’s why Democrats want the round classified as an NFA destructive device.
“Everyone knows the .9mm is the ultimate manstopper. ”
Are you talking about little itty bitty, teeny tiny, green men from Mars?
You have to carry a .9mm gun on your key chain, else it will get lost in your pocket debris and fuzz.
No putting down the trusty (?) .9mmm here. I mean, who can deny that good things come in small (teeny tiny) packages. Sometimes.
The .9 mm is like a roach motel for cultured Europeans. Quite deadly in the right hands.
Placement, placement, placement.
law enforcement need to go back to .40s
less wimpy officers will qualify with it and thats a good thing
bigger holes with less rounds
let the discussion begin
That discussion is already over.
“High Cap” .45 then.
Wasn’t that the caliber used by the cop in Ferguson, MO against overly large strong-arm gentle giant college student Michael Brown w.ho also absorbed a number of rounds before succumbing to one to the top of his head as he fell assaulting the cop? I thought for sure this is a 9mm scene, and was quite surprised to find it was a .40, kinda lessened my interest in that caliber.
@Angry Dad More a question of shot placement rather then caliber. If I recall correctly one in the hand, three in the arms, one to the side and the head shot and Brown was a big boy.
Two to the thoracic, and if after that the threat is still an immediate danger (might be on PCP or have body armor, etc.) a third to the ocular to end it decisively. A very effective strategy, and legally defensible. There is no need to continue dumping a dozen rounds center mass as the only perceived option.
Not many people can hit a target the size of an eye socket under life-and-death threat.
“Not many people can hit a target the size of an eye socket under life-and-death threat.”
If you miss by an inch, he’s going to be hurting mofo anyway. No matter where you hit an assailant in the face, there is gray matter behind it. Nostrils, mouth, throat, or even the forehead, there’s gray matter back there. Stir that gray stuff just a little bit, he’s going down.
You’re probably correct for the majority of gun owners, YPP, which spotlights the need to train.
Several weeks ago, I took a qualifier test, including one section in which we had nine shots to place in the ocular area on the silhouette target at 7 yards. Draw from holster under concealment, aim, fire, hit within a target area about 6″ x 4″, all in under 1.8 seconds.
I got all nine hits. Not one miss. I couldn’t do it upon taking the test the first time a while back, but with practice it became muscle memory.
Well, ‘I has a Q’ Great Monday Morning Quarterbacking. Like to see you actually do that in real time action, on a moving attacking you target while you’re also moving in retreat. I’ve seen and been in enough of these cases to come to the conclusion that almost all so-called precision qualifying range training goes out the back window when serious life & death violence jumps off. ‘Muscle Memory’ has a tendency to ‘cave’ when the Adrenalin spikes and tunnel vision dominates the body…
It takes a long time to also develop your ‘mind’ along with your shooting skills and that’s almost impossible to simulate outside of the real deal. So seasoned combat vets or cops in constant high speed low drag extreme crime rate cities will do better under the stress and therefore utilize their training better.
Most average CC citizens won’t. But their piss or shit in their pants time should be under a second!
If you’re new to concealed carry do yourself a big favor and practice Situational Awareness MORE than shooting at the range. Your muscle ‘memory’ should be conditioned first how to AVOID–or at least give yourself an early tactical maneuvering advantage– BEFORE you need to shoot.
This eliminates the element of total ‘surprise’ and keeps you from choking and adrenalin panic affecting your fine motor skills if you have to shoot.
Keep using the 9mm for self defense, folks. It’s really effective! /sarc
Two 125 grain .357 magnum hollow points would have taken care of business.
Do you have any proof that is true? Do we know what round the cop was using?
The discharged firearm was a .40cal.
Please watch the Georgia, Trooper Coates video…….. The 357, at point blank range by the trooper did not incapacitate the bad guy, Blackburn, 3 shots to the chest. Blackburn shot back at the trooper from 30 feet away and hit the trooper in the arm, it ricocheted into his aorta through the exposed arm hole in the troopers body armor. Trooper bled out from the. 22 wound, Blackburn got life in prison.
Police certainly had better results with the 40 S&W.
See my remarks above re Michael Brown and Ferguson, MO.
The FBI’s ballistic studies say resoundingly otherwise.
I still carry a 357 Magnum. It’s loud, you feel it when you pull the trigger, but it hits like hell. At that distance a 125 grain jacketed hollow point would have put a hole through him the size of a goilf ball. One of my special hand loads the size of a baseball.
Glazer powr ball in 9mm+p will out perform any 40 cal or 45.
Yeah, that’s not true if you truly new ballistics. But you be you…
A 40 Cal. has to much of a recoil. You can’t fire rapidly because of the recovery time between shots fired.
As a Retired Law Enforcement Officer and training Office, I have taught firearms from the 38 cal. 9mm, 40 cal., 10 mm, 45 cal., 44 Mag. Garand M-1,
Carbine M-1 and M2, Sniper Rifles. etc. Military and Police.
The proper placed round in the forehead will dispatch anyone even with a 22 Long Rifle.
9 mm is a through and through round in many cases. We are trained for center mass. The head is obviously 5x too, but a lot harder to hit with any round, even close up when under pressure or threat. If youre gonna remove the threat quickly, you need knock down power. If the guy had a gun, the assailant could have emptied, and reloaded for crying out loud. The cop would have been really really really full of holes. It’s bad enough the cop has to deal with the shooting at all, but all those rounds? He needed a better tool. Shame on the dept that still uses the 9mm. I personally love 9mm, but not for a duty gun. Need to remove the threat, NOW !!
wow this deputy is a fat bastard, a regular porky pig. why do departments allow these fat bodies on the force anyways? if a bad guy doesn’t instantly comply and or taser fails it goes directly to lethal force mag dumps. i mean what type of ammo was this fatso using anyways? fmj range ammo? how much time do department spend on training and failed taser deployments? makes you wonder: whats the current fail rate for tasers? do we need more competitors in the less lethal space? can we force departments to reenact physical fitness standards?
Taser and pepper spray would not have worked on a guy that took 12 rounds. Period. Know from experience.
taser would have worked. I have zero issue with how this situation was handled according to the video, but a good connection with the taser at that range would have dropped this guy like a bad habit.
Have you ever been hit in the face, a good shot, with pepper spray? I have in the military for training, worse pain I have ever experienced.
I am not saying for sure it would have stopped this guy but it would have jacked him up and his visibility would have been reduced to 10% and his breathing reduced by 50%.
Real world taser effectiveness is about 60%.
They think he was wearing a vest
Says poopface posting from his moms basement.
I agree the cop is badly out of shape.
After watching the video a few times after the first 3-4 rounds that perp kept coming but you see he is draining out quite fast. A fit cop could have backed up really quick after 3-4 rounds and the perp would have dropped.
I am surprised the cop did not have a heart attack with the adrenaline rush.
Yup and imagine how well any of us would shoot after getting hit in the arm with a stick/club, though I would think a broken leg bone or hip shot would drop an attacker, only crawling after that!
I totally agree. A fit cop in the 80s would have dropped him with a four cell maglite to the dome.
Are you or have you ever been a LEO? Are you a certified firearms instructor? Are you an expert on CEW’S. How quick can you draw present, and deliver lead effectively while under extreme duress? Are you a leading authority on physical fitness. I’m a US Marine Corps veteran. I was a combat MP. I served 30 years as a civilian police officer. My last 7 years were as Chief. In my tenure I experienced many things. I was very fortunate and never had to utilize deadly force. I’m fat. But don’t let that fool you friend. I learned very early on that if you weren’t there,then you have no real reason to pass judgment. Please think about your comments before you start name calling and brow beating a total stranger. That deputy did the best he could do according to his training and instinct. Think about what he will have to deal with mentally in the near future. Look at the color leave the suspects face and the life leave his body. I don’t care how you twist it. It sucks all the way around.
I was thinking the same thing as I watched the video, I had to watch it again just to pay attention to what it was really about!! I think it would have had a different outcome had it been a different officer! I think he shot more out of fear than self defense?
I don’t know- that guy was obviously so off his head that even if the taser deployment HAD been successful, he probably wouldn’t have even registered it. That guy was practically a crazed zombie.
I personally liked the video commentary 🤣
Absolute gold. That guy is filming it live and cheering on the cop when he blows him away.
the commentator is frigging @$$hole dirtbag. reveling in the man’s death and spouting racist bullshit.
You don’t have the right to bash people in the head with a stick. A little trash talk while that loser bled out was icing on the cake.
How was the commentator a bad guy really???
I agree with you Rich Brighton. The commentator sounds like a hood rat reverse racist.
JFC, you’re a moron.
what a unappreciative jerk you are!bet you would not put your life on the line to save someone from dying what would you have to say if the deputy had been killed saving the lives of others as it should be
Would he have cheered so loudly if the psycho was “of color”? Fk no. He’d be marching and wailing and looting and burning MoCo to the ground.
Glock 17 is the duty weapon issued to Montgomery County MD Sheriffs Deputies. Take what you want from that information. They are pretty much becoming the standard everywhere. I had to initially qualify with a Glock 17 myself, because that was what I was issued in the Police Academy. I don’t care for Glocks so I elected to use something else after. I do carry everyday (either for work or now off duty) my Springfield Professional that I had Nighthawk rebuild.
The place I worked allowed duty carry of 1911s. I will sometimes carry a USP 45, but that is only when I am unable to carry my 1911 (I carried the USP while my 1911 was with Nighthawk) I have never felt underequipped with 7+1, I always carry several spare mags regardless. I have the most confidence with the 1911 and it is what I am most comfortable with and shoot the best with. A rifle is what I would rather have If I know or suspect I may be going to a fight. I always keep my SCAR 17 where I can grab it if at all possible, whether in the vehicle or many times I’d just sling it and do my business.
I did go through a little phase where I carried a .357 Sig because I saw some testing done by some agencies about 5 years ago that intrigued me and there was an incident with a swat MP5 that underwhelmed me with the ballistics of 9mm. I now just stick to my 1911 for carry.
We all use the G45-9mm now.
Sad to see, once again incompetent untrained deputy unnecessarily kills a guy. Cops like this shouldn’t be on the job. Family is going to take this vid and successfully get a multimillion dollar settlement from the county or state. I’m retired military and LE and I cringe every time I see these incidents.
How is that fat cop on the job? When was his last fitrep? Can he even subdue someone from the HS girls lacrosse team? Skinny old guy yells at you, hits you with a stick and you shoot him to death? THIS is how BLM and politicians get traction for their narratives. We only have ourselves to blame.
Well, I hope that after your walk, you gave him back his shoes.
“How is that fat cop on the job?”
How does anyone know if the cop is fat? A coworkers husband was a cop. Met him several times. Seemed just a normal guy. Then, one afternoon, he came by the office in uniform and I couldn’t get over how fat he was; ballistic vest under the shirt.
what a unappreciative jerk you are!bet you would not put your life on the line to save someone from dying what would you have to say if the deputy had been killed saving the lives of others as it should be he gets his job done
???? Did we not watch the same video? He is fat as hell.
Dude looked high on something to me. I wouldn’t risk my life on somebody high on drugs, they need to stay in the house till they come down so they don’t get in trouble.
Agreed. fatigue makes cowards of us all. He was fatigued just getting out of the patrol car. I’ve been in almost this exact situation on a weekly basis and have managed to not shoot anyone. I’m in good enough shape and train enough that disarming a senior citizen with a stick would have taken a few minutes, and he would have ended up restrained.
You’re an idiot! You have this weekly?
I stand by my comment Barb, but you are free to not believe me. However this is the internet and no one ever lies.
Of course, as former military and LE you should know that he met the rules of engagement. He attempted weapon escalation even in a short amount of time, he gave MANY verbal commands, the attacker was attempting to cause death or great bodily harm on several occasions. This all warranted deadly force.
First off… thank you for your service!! I hope retirement is treating you well, I totally agree with you about the physical shape of some of our police officers! Sometimes you have to use the right tool for the right job, I think it’s time for him to pass the torch, those 12 rounds we’re shot out of fear not self defense! Had he waited for backup I’m sure the outcome would have been different? As close as he was the officer could have placed the bullets anywhere on that mans body!!
You are IDIOT………or a sick clown👎😠🤬
.9mm is about the diameter of a standard 2 pencil lead.
Suicide by cop.
.44 or .45 JHP would stop ’em better, I would think and maybe with with less rds. Ammo isn’t cheap right now ya know…..now ya know why the 9mms have the extended magazine….
Shame the guy had to lose his life just for being that stupid. I take he was jacked up on drugs?
This summer my husband and I were weighing the option of buying a firearm for protection if Trump got re-elected and the loonies went after everyone. After much deliberation we decided on non-lethal pellet and paint ball guns with riot shots. The pause of worrying someone might die from our firing at them would be enough time to be disarmed and killed by the attacker. If you aren’t trained you will pause to reflect on the consequences.
The Name Of the Game is shoot for the knee or the leg . Even a head shot might not be instant kill or stop.
A 9mm will shatter your shin bone or blow your knee. Another Shot is the groin (A little too brutal) but they’re stopping if they get hit there no matter who you are.
stoopid kill… what ever happened to disengagement pulls
u cant walk if both legs n shoulders are popped
Hell yeah that is what the guy videoing likes to see unless the guy getting shot is… BLACK. Temhen all hell breaks lose. What a half assed double standard.
Police should carry nothing less than a Desert Eagle .50cal. Or a rifle calibre pistol in .30cal.
As should every legal gun owner.
If memory serves you only have a .22. Does this make you an illegal gun owner?
“If memory serves you only have a .22. Does this make you an illegal gun owner?”
Not at all. Just as tadpole in the gun universe. Fortunately my Neos carries 10+1 ammo capacity. If a bad guy stands real still, I could put 11 rounds into him/her/it. Not having a .50cal handgun, I just need to put twice as many bullets into the critical mass.
The most honest guy on TTAG!!! 👏
“The most honest guy on TTAG!!! ”
Things like that can get you run out of here.
Yes but you have to put the first five rounds in exactly the same entry hole, one on top of the other. Then the second five rounds get their own hole, one of top of the other.
This is called “Nail Driving” or “Tack Driving”. Very popular in the Old West of Hollywood.
Your 11th round is to shoot your buddy in the foot so you can out run the bear.
“Yes but you have to put the first five rounds in exactly the same entry hole, one on top of the other. ”
Not a problem if the bad guy is real, real still.
Don’t underestimate the .22LR. In my life, I have seen 2 shot deader than dirt with a .22. If the Neos is what you have, or what you can afford at the moment, when you need a gun, that makes you prepared. I am sure the caliber snobs will chime in soon.
“Don’t underestimate the .22LR.”
I have a healthy respect for .22LR. Have seen on TV and read in books that the .22 is the choice of professional hitmen/women/its. Which is why I mentioned that if a bad guy stands real still, I can put 11 rounds in a tight circle, center mass.
Keltec makes a 22 mag that holds 30 rounds
Beretta U22 Neos reminds me of a pellet gun, my neighbor has one.
A 7.62 x 25 will do just about anything a rifle round in .30 can do from a handgun. No matter what, it will probably be straight through.
I’ll bite. Dafook is a 7.62 x 25? Is that .300 blk? They do work real well from really short barrels, like 6-9 inches.
Soviet Tokarev round.
7.62×25 Tokarev. Old Ruskie pistol/subgun round.
Larry in TX,
According to some answer that I found in Google:
I’d think if nothing else the muzzle blast from that round might stun him, also.
Fun to shoot, quite a fireball at the muzzle. 85-90 grain FMJ or JHP pushed out a 4.6″ barrel at 1500fps or so, depending on the load, some hotter than that.
Okay, let’s climb into the way back machine…. CZ 52 surplus circa 1988 or so, imported in decent shape for around $135, ammo about $1.65 / 25 rounds of 85 gr @ around 1600 fps. Grip was kinda long front to back, bore axis was kinda high, felt a lot like a 22Automag…. loud as hell, fun as anything legal could be. Don’t know if they are still available and ammo is scarce nowadays, but had a really high fun quotient, if it were higher capacity, I’d think about carrying with it stoked with decent HP loads.
The preferred round for dispensing “justice” in The CCP and other communist dictatorships saving the expense of a trial.
You should find hollow-points or something that pack all the energy into the object. I don’t think you can use exploding ammo, but perhaps a hollow-point filled with mercury and sealed with a drop of wax.
Just like they do in Hollywood.
Where do you people come from?
“A 7.62 x 25…”
Isn’t 7.62X25 a .30cal round? Thinking out of a handgun, it will not reach rifle velocities. Would a .30cal round be more efficient than .32cal (which is laughed at)?
7.62×25 runs about 1700 fps.out of the Soviet gun, not too bad with ball ammo. Obviously a lot more effective with Hollow point
Sam. I had a tokarev tt33. Just off the top of my head the projectile from same was .30 cal that weighed somewhere around 80-90 grains. At 1400-1600 fps.
My .32acp was a 71 grain bullet at about half that speed. The russian round had a 25mm long case and the .32 had a 17mm long case, sans bullets.
All this is from my hazy old man memory. I had the Tok back in the old days when the iron curtain was still up and commie guns and ammo were rare and exotic.
The russian round seemed to have quite a bit more authority behind it than the .32.
I doan buy no commie pinko products, less’n ah kin git it at Walmart, or some other “Sold In America” retail store.
Sorta like a miniature.357 Sig.
“Sorta like a miniature.357 Sig.”
Would that be equivalent, or an upgrade from .9mm?
This is a hot round at least in the original military loadings. The modern PPU stuff is probably wimpy in comparison. I have a few CZ52’s that shoot it. I’d like the military performance with a HP bullet with a 13rd or higher capacity. Problem for me with these guns is they are fairly large, heavy all steel and are too low capacity considering the fanatic mobs of skinny jeans wearing idiots that are now common in your favorite liberal city. It’s why I put the J frame up and went to 14rd +P 9mm in a sub compact. Even with that, if you cannot place your shots well you may be faced with multiple attackers like this lunatic guy.
I want a high capacity 7.62×25 handgun. Norinco make a Sig 226 clone in this caliber, come on Ruger, Smith and Wesson
Ruger did come out with the 5 7, so there’s that.
And a fireball from hell to boot.
A 54-1 is one of my edc’s , 7.62×25 is an over looked cartridge.
I didnt watch the vid here at work, but did the deputy fire two shots in the air with his shotgun first?
Now that’s funny, I don’t care who you are. You know, the thing…
Cornpop was a bad dude!
But as the story goes, Joe lifeguard of the all black pool later met CornPop and his cronies head on all by himself, having armed himself with a 6ft chain. After a standoff, CornPop backed down…… Yeah, sure ole Joe!
Obviously not, or it would have scared the guy off and prevented the attack (according to the Prez).
Wasn’t that just for his wife?
Wife? You mean his babysitter.
Didn’t Uncle Joe say to fire the shotgun through the front door as well?
Yes, yes he did.
“No balcony was harmed in the making of this defensive shooting”.
Looks like a bernie bro.
At my age my chances of out fighting a person that I’ve shot 3-5 times with a .38 are much better than a person that has not been shot. And I’m sure as hell not going to outrun most adult males. Maybe the ones on walkers.
Yup. Looks like a Hodgkinson 2.0 without the planning.
A cursory check of easily viewable records confirms this ‘man’ is a MAGAt through and through. Another one of the 74 million losers bites the dust!!
Blue-haired “chicks” and their fantasies….
Hey, Geoff. You let your bitch off her leash. Want to come get her.
“You let your bitch off her leash.”
I’m not selfish, you can play with it if you want.
Just give it a kick square in the teeth, it’ll whimper away the way it always does.
Make the insults very personal, it’s fun, and it *really* hates that… 🙂
Hey everyone Vietnam War (era) veteran and stolen valor enthusiast jwm attempted a funny. Certainly better than anything that buffoon Goof Can crap out. Man what a loser.
Even the TTAG women kick the troll in the head!
How *humiliating* for the troll!
What’s it like being male with no testosterone, widdle troll? Just some shriveled up testicles? 😉
So in your mind women aren’t equal, Goof? Typical misogynist. Makes sense though, since you’ve never known the pleasures of a woman 🤣🤣🤡🤡.
Stolen Valor? Citation please. All I’ve ever claimed to be is a survivor.
Try to keep up, troll boi.
lol twerp…Instead of sitting high above the fray in women’s underwear and getting your perverted jollies off on what you see why don’t you take your perverted sht to the streets? C’;mon twerp… Put on your Jim Crow Gun Control democRat Party KKK sheet and come and get ’em or stfu boy.
Always carry a knife. So if it comes to it you can always get stabby.
Yup, after failure to assume the prone after a few decent hits, head and groin!!
Looked like he ended up with some of those scattered around, though I’d admit they were so close I think even I could have pulled off a head shot.
Usually they end up supine
Que Massive Outrage in 1,2,3 thousand years…..
No outrage, he was white.
It would be interesting to know what drugs the perp had in his system. My thought would be methamphetamines as this behavior is not unknown for those using it. One druggie in Florida took 10 rounds of .40S&W before he gave it up.
Angel dust, PCP. Makes ’em immune to pain.
OTOH, given the dude’s Land’s End khakis and blazer, nowadays making him look almost formally dressed for the street, it might have been a Puligny Montrache, or a good Barolo.
I’d like to see a truthful report about the perpetrators mental record (if any), blood work to see if drugs were involved and if he had on armor of any kind. Also where each shot hit and what organ(s) were hit. This is video evidence to support why I went from a 5 shot revolver to a 13 shot semi.
He appeared to still be grinning as he keeled over, guy was seriously screwed up. I did not catch, can we confirm I am not going to run into him? Like, is he dead? I’d also like to know what the hell the shirt was, what important message was he promoting?
I do not think that the aggressor was wearing any ballistic resistant items — you can see blood soaking through is shirt within a few seconds of him laying on the ground.
Honestly, I have to wonder if this was a case of demon possession. First of all, the guy had allegedly crashed into multiple cars before the deputy arrived. Second of all, it was at 8 a.m. on a Saturday morning — not a likely time for someone to be cranked up on drugs. Third, the guy had a look of evil satisfaction/defiance/anger on his face as he kept advancing on the deputy — even while taking several rounds to his torso. The look on his face did not change until he was laying on the ground. And even then the look on his face did not seem to reflect what a normal person would be doing.
Lol you think drug addicts keep a schedule?
Well, they do make the 4:20 appointment!
That was no weed high, that was more like PCP and meth.
*Zero* mellow in that guy…
Covid Insanity plus Meth
Lol, I love the comments here. Syfy channel could get some material from this site.
Lol, 8 am is EXACTLY when a drug addict is at their worst! Been ip all night or even DAYS, and the dealers are all asleep. As far as him grinning, I wonder what “normal “ face someone makes while violently dying?🤔
I figured suicide by cop.
Another reason why having a 10 round magazine capacity restriction does not work.
I seen the unedited video where he collapsed and and started bleed out alot.
It’s hard to think under that kind of pressure but I agree empty the mag moving the gun up and down across CoM.
He may have still been walking, but he was already doomed after the 3rd or 4th shot.
That knowledge doesn’t help the cop, he was still swinging the stick.
“He may have still been walking, but he was already doomed after the 3rd or 4th shot.”
But possibly still a deadly threat.
This. You can see it. Had the cop been in better shape, 4 rounds….back up fast…perp keeps coming but with each step he is halting his reaming ability….and drops.
This was the edited video?
I thought watching the video above and counting the sound of the shots was like possibly 13 rounds he put into the guy before he finally dropped
At that distance and speed, a head shot or two was very feasible. The perp was amped up with rage and maybe chemicals on board. Doubletap the upper chest and controlled pair to the snotbox, done.
You’re obviously correct that a headshot would have been far more effective, but I’m sure that the officer involved was under tremendous stress in the moment. Pelvic shots are nearly as effective in terms of stopping an advancing attacker, easier to make (larger target and slower moving), and–very importantly–are less liable to be disastrous for people downrange in the event of a miss.
Also gotta remember Rule 4: Know your target and backstop. A bullet fired at that elevated angle goes a loooong way.
12 gauge buck would of been better. But ya dance with the girl you brought.
That cop will never forget this or watch TWD again..
After the perp gets hit with a couple of rounds & still is advancing on your position, it’s time to target the head,
Just another reason to have a high capacity BIG BORE
pistola. & if you’re not confident in your aiming ability just hop in your squad & run the freak over…
Poorly trained cop, or he panicked. Two shots, one to each knee would put the man down and not kill him. He could have been having a stroke or drug reaction.
Your compassion is seriously misplaced.
Seriously misplaced. Knee shot indeed. ALL cops are taught to shoot out the knee first, right?
Makes me glad the two primary magazines I now have for my G2c are 17 and 15 rounds.
Those who carry 7 rounds of .380 and feel good about it, take note
Fuck man… intense. In the words of the late, great Richard Pryor, “you hit me with that stick, I’m gonna bite ya dick.”
Reminded me of the terminator – taking shots and still coming forward.
There is more to the story and I’m trying to do some research to find out what it is. The man that died was wearing an Army logo for the 160th Special Operations Airborne Regiment known as Nightstalkers. The motto on his shirt says “Death Waits In The Dark – Nightstalkers. He was shot at 8am on a Saturday morning, wearing a business blazer over his SOAR t-shirt. He wore lace up duty boots. He died only about a mile from his home, which he paid $500K for about a year ago. He did not flinch when 10+ rounds hit him in the chest. In fact, he leaned into it. I am of the opinion that this was some sort of PTSD suicide by vehicle, and that when that failed, it moved to suicide by cop. There is some evidence he was married and had children. I hope the full story comes out.
I’ll wait for confirmation about the guy’s veteran status. PTSD? The guy is pretty old. As for the T-shirt, it’s skiable online for $16.99. Maybe the guy just liked the logo and meme. I’ll wait for more details.
He did seem to indicate a badge or something on his left breast or lapel, like maybe he was a cop too, or something. Go back and look.
His heart. “Shoot me here!”
Re: Old. So what?. Could be an officer. Could be lifer enlisted.
The TF160 guys are the best pilots in the world. I’m willing to bet that none of them would agree that their status as pilots makes them able to absorb multiple point blank centermass JHP rounds and continue moving. Pretty sure this is just a lunatic with some shit in his system. PCP, a few other things also come to mind. Methamphetamine isnt really quite in the ballpark of something that will create this sort of effect.
Why assume he’s a drug abuser? Millions of people have been slipped drugs without their knowledge, or been in legal phase 3 trials that went wrong, or subjected to sleep deprivation and other side effects of prescription drugs, or suffer from PTSD etc, and twist off through no fault of their own. I personally know one such case. Maybe the obese officer had no choice, I give him the benefit of the doubt, but this looks like a tragedy either way. Per the report, it doesn’t look like he used all non-lethal alternatives, mace, wait for backup etc. What was the guy going to kill with a rotten stick? A car? Maybe it could’ve been handled differently, not ending in death. Too many mindless “back the blue whatever they do” ghouls here.
This video and a couple of others cemented my decision to go to 357sig for my EDC now. Just have to find some defensive ammo..lol..All I have is range ammo for the 357 as I don’t like to shoot it that much.
I was discussing this video yesterday, it got taken down from original hosting site. Everyone agreed that the cop was getting good hits…but zombie guy kept coming. Some things the cop did wrong but hey, he survived so it’s a win.
9mm gets retired to range practice, I’ve seen enough.
Sounds like you already acquired your .357 Sig handgun. If not, consider .40 S&W if you want a bit more “oomph” over 9mm Luger. Keep in mind that .357 Sig is simply .40 S&W necked down to .357 caliber with ever-so-slightly less case capacity (from necking it down a tiny bit).
The beauty of .40 S&W is that you have a really wide range of bullet weights from which to choose. If you want maximum muzzle velocity, go with 135 grain bullets with a muzzle velocity around 1,400 feet-per-second. Or you can increase bullet weight to 155 grains with a muzzle velocity around 1,250 feet per second. Finally, you can go all the way to 180 grain bullets with a muzzle velocity around 950 feet per second.
Another advantage of .40 S&W is that ammunition is more widely available, even during periods of incredible demand.
Having said all that, keep in mind that all handgun platforms tend to be unreliable man-stoppers. About the only handgun platform that I would expect to be a reliable man-stopper would be a revolver with a six-inch barrel chambered in .44 Magnum and shooting full-power cartridges with 180 grain hollowpoint bullets. (Those would have a muzzle velocity around 1,600 feet-per-second and would have to be incredibly debilitating.) Of course you have to question the utility of attempting to conceal and/or carry around such a large Magnum revolver.
Yes, I have a Glock in .357sig. That being said, I’m not in love with with it. I have been carrying Federal 147gr HSTs in my G19 and would like to stick to similar. Staying with the Glock platform is easier than jumping to my full 1911, which I don’t have enough holster choices for, it’s heavy, and not as concealable. I shoot the .45 much better but ammo is expensive just like the .357sig.
I don’t know. Would like to see the autopsy report on the zombie guy. He got way too close.
I can move better than the cop since my range allows movement on several of our ranges. I’m not ancient yet, although my body feels like it most days.
Actually, I am pretty sure that you can simply purchase a .40 S&W barrel for your Glock 19 and be good to go since the extractor (in the slide) and magazines are already the correct size for .40 S&W cartridge. You can literally use the same magazines for both .357 Sig and .40 S&W since they have the same parent case.
(Technically speaking, I think you would have to order a .40 S&W barrel for a Glock 23 which is the .40 S&W equivalent to the Glock 19. Double check those Glock model numbers before ordering.)
Please see my questioning remarks above re Michael Brown, late of Ferguson, MO (pun intended) and .40 caliber. I was, and may still be, interested in .40, but only because it’s available in a Browning Hi Power and more for the gun than the cartridge.
Glazer 9mm +p powr ball will outperform any 40 cal
On side note…the response and words of the person recording this video is just as sickening. He seems thrilled a person was shot simply because he was “white” and getting what he deserved….purely racist world view. The lack of any shock and almost glee in his voice was incredibly concerning…..absolutely no humanity. And to keep shooting the video while a human being took his final breaths is also sickening. We are dead as a society.
I noticed that as well.
Partial verbatim transcription below…
Very glad to see him continue recording.
Though I agree that his commentary is inappropriate, his reaction is 100% transparent, and this is good for discourse.
All these gun newbs need to see what “finding out” looks like.
I’m just glad we don’t have smellavision… thanks but no thanks.
I didn’t listen to the commentary. I did notice the person filming should have been exiting the situation. Being that close to a gun fight is ridiculous to me.
Imagine this were a sporting event, the crowd would be shouting something… de-fense… de-fense…de-fense…
My phone would have been on the floorboard and I would have been digging out all my available guns in case the cop needed help, continuing to record seems crazy, but I imagine the cop will be thankful for the record, more than he would be for my (unneeded) help.
Larry it is Maryland, so unless you get a untaniable CCW the pistol has to be unloaded in a separate locked container from the ammo in your trunk. They would probably charge you with something, this is the DC metro where the police look for out of state tags with CCW information and deliberately go out their way to charge people with firearm violations.
Megaditto, but perhaps you noticed he was in a string of stopped traffic and, at least as the car was concerned, couldn’t easily move. Perhaps he should have, as cops like to say, exited the vehicle, but then we would have been deprived of the vid. He does exhibit, as should be a warning to all, a natural human tendency perhaps to think he is safe within the vehicle despite the very real possibility of gunplay, when in reality in a vehicle you are very, very vulnerable unless your vehicle is one of those 6,000 pound enhanced bullet-proof jobs. As to his “racist” commentary, it stuck me as less extreme and more usual and day to day for one such as he as the studied and chillingly calculated drivel one hears from similarly pigmented persons on CNN, MSNBC and at the NYT.
Yeah. I’ve noticed this in a lot of videos recorded by black people when the person getting shot is white.
It strikes me as being along the lines of the OJ verdict being celebrated. Rather than trying to make the system better, a lot of people prefer to just see more injustice on the ‘other’ side.
Almost any time a police officer shoots someone it represents a systematic failure. In an ideal world, it wouldn’t happen. But now we have people cheering it on as long as it’s a white person getting shot.
Geez, you guys come off like a bunch of sanctimonious pukes, give the dude a break, his instinct that an out of control asshole deserves what he got is because he, as are we all, always mandated to be in control as we bow to our selected enforcers of sanctioned state violence. He weren’t cheering the a’hole on, were he? NO, he was rooting for the cop. Get a grip.
oh please whats this drugged up thugs police record. i bet this cop saved his wife and children from a criminal. he was most likely going to sell drugs or rob someone. we need more info on this white thug. it was self defense. saved the tax payer. was most likely on welfare like him and his entire family. should of just complied
It was an educational film.
“Now that’s the shit I like to see! Thought your ass was privileged!”
(The voice of the one who recorded the video)
“Thought your ass was privileged!”
He’s only repeating what the media/DNC narrative tells us everyday. Cops only shoot black men.
My ruger p89 has a 17+1 capacity.
“Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job”
Nice to see another P89 owner, the tank of the 90’s is One fine firearm. Is your a DC? I wouldn’t trade mine for any of these new plastic fantastic things they sell today.
I love my P89 also. I’m a lefty and the P89 checks off all the boxes for me except being comcealiable. It is one of the most reliable semi autos I own.
I’ve also got one but it’s relegated to the “go bag”.
The Deputy Sheriff had no other options, but possibly shooting a suicidal veteran will leave the Deputy with a ton of guilt. Very sad story. And the man who recorded it and commented disgracefully as it was happening is a pathetic RACIST.
One minute a respected vet the next minute a perp. Maintaining credibility is a second by second minute by minute undertaking. Obviously something got the best of the man and caused him to become a drama queen who disobeyed orders from a commanding officer and in doing so he was court marshaled in the street.
Where you got “RACIST” from what I heard said I dunno. Musta missed SOMETHING.
“One minute a respected vet the next minute a perp. ”
POTG need to digest this, over and again. Might well have written, “One minute a law abiding gun owner, the next minute a perp.” It is this instant change of condition that terrifies the anti-gun mob (well, it is what they use to keep their myths alive, which is just as dangerous).
This is a sad situation, but that vet is a POS for trying to take people with him by driving into other cars.
“ That may suggest the attacker had concealed body armor under his clothes.”
This is an absolutely ridiculous assumption in this case, as we know that the individual shot was not wearing body armor. It just goes to show that you can land successive shots center mass, but the human body can endure a lot in certain circumstances.
The amount of cope all you 9mm users have is pathetic.
As I stated further up, caliber isn’t the main factor. 9mm, .40, .45, whatever…
Two to the thoracic, and if after that the threat is still an immediate danger (might be on PCP or have body armor, etc.) a third to the ocular to end it decisively. A very effective strategy, and legally defensible. There is no need to continue dumping a dozen rounds center mass as the only perceived option.
Everyone is welcome and encouraged to choose their favorite cartridge and train with it Variety is spice. But anyone who believes modern 9mm loads cannot effectively stop a crazed attacker should perhaps educate himself better.
You’re an idiot.
14 rounds of .45 to stop a perp.
How do we know that he didn’t have a Second Chance shirt under his clothes? I saw no blood on his chest, and with ~11 holes there I would have expected something, maybe even gushing. Only blood to be seen is his crotch, so maybe got a round below the vest. If you have more proof, show it, it ain’t in the vid that I saw.
For all you 9MM or nothing clowns … OBSERVE HERE WHY I PREFER THE .40 over everything less.
What makes you think the cop was shooting a 9mm? And, if he was shooting a .40, is that why you are moving (FINALLY!) to the mighty .45?
“For all you 9MM or nothing clowns…”
Meaning there is absolutely no legitimate reason 9mm is the most common weapon for cops and soldiers?
Then why did this perp take 14 rounds of .45 before being stopped?
Please see my comment above on Michael Brown, late of Ferguson, MO, and .40 caliber.
Aim for the head…and crotch. That’ll learn him!
Do not extend your weapon so a head taller perp closing in on you with a long stick can bat it and your head into left field. Time for low ready and adding distance. The video’s “master of ceremonies”” was several times right for the green light however I commend the officer for doing everything he could and then some.
Gee MADDMAXX why do you carry that heavy ass 10 MM? Isn’t THAT overkill?… Fuckin 9 MM, you never know what you’re going to be up against.. That’s why I load 185 grain HP with an extra mag AND one 15 round mag of 225 grain hard cast lead….
The best millimeter! The gong doesn’t lie, 10mm is more than double a 9mm.
Fuckinay, pb- you carry that thing full of 45super ? Don’t you think that’s kinda overkill? ” Anything worth killing is worth overkilling, I always say !”
Folding 450 Bushmaster pistol has entered the chat.
Anything worth killing is worth overkilling, I always say !”
Unless, of course, you’re planning to harvest and consume the meat.
I think, a lot of non-hunters or service members, will have some reaction to watching this man struggle for those last few breaths. It always looks the same.
Two to the chest… face gets the rest.
This. It’s haunting. Only thing that would stick with me more is seeing that look on a innocent person’s face because there was nobody to stop it from happening.
Probably suicide by cop. In any case, two to one says the guy with the stick will be voting in the next election.
@ Ralph I’ll put $10 on that.
From the linked article.
“The man, identified as 52-year-old Kevin Costlow, of Laytonsville…MONTGOMERY COUNTY, Md”
Reply in the affirmative, and we can work out contact info.
I don’t know Ralph. They may want to use his name on the gun violence lists instead, they gotta start working on those numbers to prove how dangerous firearms are.
He looked healthy enough to do both, to me!
my state says I only need 10 rounds to defend myself.
Yeah, I carry two extra reloads as a result of such stupid laws. But reloading isn’t particularly easy while someone’s beating on you with a weapon.
I wonder if you’d have a viable lawsuit against the state if you were a citizen limited to 10 in this situation.
D.C. has a 10 round mag limit, and only allows you to carry a maximum of 20 rounds on your person.
My home state of CA does, too, except I participated in ‘Freedom Week’ almost two years ago and gots me plenty of legal full-cap mags.
But even so, you only need three. Two to the pump, one to the junction box.
Too bad. Mine has no restrictions on ammo, magazine, weapon, or carry/own/purchase (other than Federal).
I carry a 40. But, If the aggressor is unarmed with a weapon (Other than a club), I most likely would have ran to my squad car and called for backup. Hopeing more officers would get thier in enough time.
The Sherrif did nothing wrong. I don’t believe their is a right or wrong way for a cop to react. Insticktively, he is running the show. The Sherrif appeard to be aiming at certer mass. That is what he is trained to do. No Hollywood shots to the head or legs or wounding him goes in this case.
The left is going to be screaming police brutality – as usual.
Wrong skin tone.
Photoshop can fix that. 😉
No they won’t because he’s white. More whites are killed a year than blacks ever will by police. Yet media thinks otherwise
We understand that shooting people in the face is uber bad PR.
And, you must be old as hell, the radio is on your shoulder, not in the car. (obviously the car contains components and function, but PTT is everywhere for decades)
Called for backup? Whatcha think backup is gonna do? Answer: hopin’ they’ll do your job for you? The guy was attacking strangers on the street, you ARE the backup which has been called, do your damn job.
Larryin TX – NAILED IT!!
The deputy was lucky the guy only had a stick.
That is all.
FOR LIFE. Right in the chassis.
OK..Time to put an end to these 9mm bashing tough guys. I’ll make deal with any one of you. I’ll shoot you with one 9mm round and then you can shoot me with whatever you want. Deal?
300 WinMag has entered the chat.
He didn’t say you could bring a friend. Let me shoot you once with a 9mm, I don’t give a shit if you brought a 30 mm cannon.
Lol, John, you might notice that Debbie said she’ll shoot you first with a 9mm, and then you can try to shoot her with your elk cannon. Assuming she didn’t drop you to your knees with a gonad shot, or put 115 grains of metallurgical goodness into your braincase.
john boy…you are proof positive a sucker is born everyday.
Covid-19 claims another victim.
Voted #1 clickbait rickrolling title.
When the nut job gun grabbers say “Why would anyone need more that 10 bullets” Show them this. Well here 11 bullets wasn’t enough to stop the perp…#12 did.
185 grain, 45 +p, just like what I carry, would do the job. I agree that after 2-3 ineffective hits, the pelvic girdle and/or head should be next…
The attacker was wearing a “Night Stalkers Don’t Quit” shirt. I may have served with this guy back in the day. Very sad.
Did anyone notice the bulging artery in his neck. He looks very hyped up. Second he appears to be wearing a badge on the left side of his chest. He pointed to it at the beginning of the confrontation.
That is a bulging external jugular vein. That can happen with anything that slows blood flow return from the upper body to the heart. In this case, I would guess either from reflex holding breath and “gritting” against the pain and yelling, or from injury to the heart itself.
6.5 CM needed more than ever. Put that sectional density or whatever to work.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a shooting video like this where literally everyone involved is a total failstick.
First for everything since guess.
What is a failstick?
The Guy taking the Video was Black and wanted the LEO to shoot the guy. like it was racial even. If the guy had a stick why didn’t the officer just tackle him? and 12 rounds? he needs more training. 2 rounds to the body, if no effect then a round to the head. in other countries you have to account for where the rounds go.
I count about 7 seconds between the first shot and the subject hitting the ground “incapacitated.” I’d say that’s a very fast stop for chest shots and one couldn’t reasonably expect much better than that with any common handgun caliber. The only way to faster incapacitation is to disrupt the central nervous system with a brain or spinal cord injury.
At it’s simplest, I think it can be broken down like this…. For a body to function in an altercation, three things are needed:
1) the brain requires blood flow
2) muscles require input from the brain to function
3) muscles require skeletal structure for movement
Bringing a violent action to a stop requires interrupting one of those. Chest shots primarily work by #1… they poke holes in the heart or great vessels and prevent blood flow to the brain. The brain will keep sending signals to the muscles that keep the body attacking for a few seconds after loss of blood flow. Sure, bigger holes and more holes can speed that up that loss of flow, but it’s going to take a few seconds. A true center mass shot might also disrupt #2 by injuring the spinal cord (about a 1/4” wide target in the chest area) or #3 by disrupting skeletal integrity at the spinal column (about a 1.5-2” target in the chest, and fairly difficult to mechanically disrupt with any one shot.) Note that the arms will still function with a severed spinal cord or disrupted bony spinal column in the area of center mass.
Head shots disrupt #2. To really get instant incapacitation, this needs to be at the base of the brain, or around the level of the eyes. (The “T-box”.). If the brain can’t function, the body can’t fight.
Pelvis shots work primarily on #3. The pelvis and hips are big and when those bones are broken, the body cannot support it’s weight and so likely cannot attack with a melee weapon. There are a lot of vessels in the pelvis as well… but poking holes here is a very slow way to make a determined body cease attacking. Think minutes to hours.
Obviously that’s a bit oversimplified and applies only to the seconds during an altercation. Bullet holes can lead directly to incapacitation and death in many parts of the body. The time to get there depends on a lot of factors and the availability of medical/surgical care.
I would like to see you be so rational in that type of situation Mr. ArmChair QB. It is well known that thinking goes out the door under a stress attack. Unless you train daily for this you will fail not matter what you think about caliber effeciency or shot placement.
I posted not to critique but rather to add a bit of medical realism background to the discussion of shot placement and realistic expectations for time to incapacitation. I suspect the initial shot or two into the center chest was likely fatal. Probably that’s all that was needed… that hole in the heart/aorta/SVC as well as the 7 seconds for blood flow to the brain to drop to the point of incapacitation (but “wait and see” isn’t a good approach here, so good on the officer for shooting until the threat stops.) It could also have been the 5th or 10th shot that caused the incapacitation. We’ll never know, even with the full autopsy. Apologies if my point was lost. As for me, in a terrible situation such as that, I suspect I’d have defaulted to what I train to do, just as the officer likely did.
It’s probably not realistic that civilians or even most law enforcement train to perfection on double shots to heart and head on an advancing attacker at 7 yards, center mass shots at 25yards plus, and then start at pelvis and work your way up at farther targets. That’s fairly complicated and beyond the scope of the non-professional warfighter. That kind of decision making under pressure takes constant, repetitive training.
Center mass works to incapacitate. For those expecting faster incapacitation than 7 seconds with a larger caliber, I think they would be greatly disappointed. Again, I don’t claim to know the tactical answers, only to have a somewhat informed opinion on the facts regarding the effects of ballistic injury on the human body. To my knowledge, there isn’t a lot of great scientific data in this area either (funny how no one volunteers to be shot in the chest in the name of science…at least while they’re still alive) so accept my opinion for what it’s worth…. the paper it’s printed on.
@ Do Know Harm
I think your post was well written and accurate.
As an aside, I interact with local gov officials daily. I spoke with one of the asst. coroners this morning. The autopsy can reveal much but not an exact timeline in regards to shots placed when. Probable cause of death round(s) married with video.
Your point certainly wasn’t lost on me. You have a lot of skill in the art of written language. Some folks simply are blinded by muzzle flash and cannot see the reasoning behind your well written statement. Actually, I enjoyed your comment more than any other on this page. Thanks!
Unless you train daily
You can’t “train” for an adrenaline fueled response or for killing a man.. You can train for responses to given situations but when adrenaline is pumped into the mix it’s a whole nuther level of crazy… Remember the other guy is pumped full of adrenaline too.
Drug intoxication can keep a body moving longer, and just from the video, that may have been a factor…
Rage, fear and mental illness can do the same thing.
Shitty situation. Cop did pretty good IMHO. He’d do better with a workout program though. It’s not the crazy stick-wielding-possible-associate-professors that are gonna get that guy, it’s heart issues.
Seems like everyone involved in that video has some major areas of life they’re failing at. Well, the dead dude failed permanently, the other two have some things to work on.
You discount pelvic shots too much. Groin or inner thigh, you have a good chance of getting the femoral artery. Open that artery, and the perp has somewhere near zero time left. Not zero, but really really close to zero. Remember, blood, like water, rolls downhill. Pull the plug in your kitchen sink, and “whoosh”.
I’ve seen video of a guy hit in the femoral with a .308 at almost contact distance. It still ook 45 seconds for him to bleed out.
Paul, the iliac/femoral artery is about 1/4-1/2” in diameter. Pretty small target…. but yes it carries a lot of blood. My point is that 7 seconds from what was probably an unsurvivable injury to the heart until time of incapacitation is very fast. You won’t beat that time from injury to incapacitation with a femoral artery wound. Shooting at the pelvis may also injure the pelvic girdle or hip/femur and greatly limit an attackers mobility, but they will likely have minutes of consciousness in which to continue an attack. If limiting their mobility gets you out of range, that’s a win. If they can still shoot you, maybe it’s not.
Well I carry a little 380 with jacketed hollow points and have no fear of their stopping ability with the testing of them and being I loaded them myself and they are a little hot in the powder load and the gun is a Russian made Makarov 380, not a 9×18
wanted to add I like the power of the 45acp but my Colt is just too dang heavy and where I live it’s too hot to wear something that will cover a shoulder holster and also if you are around a lot of people you have to worry about the people around and behind the bad guy and with the gun, I carry not as big a problem and can use a belt holster
That Deputy wasn’t going to win a race front peddling much less back peddling. You will note that the Deputy had already successfully blocked a bow from the stick using his forearm without serious injury. I could teach him techniques to block with less injury.
If I had been there, the perpetrator would have lived but he would have required the services of a proctologist to recover the broken pieces of his stick.
Looking at the video. The guy had the look like he had to be on something. Wish that L.E.O. would have been carrying something with a little bit bigger with more zip. On the other if center mass isn’t going to the job done with the first ten then maybe try to take the apricot.
Don’t forget bears have been killed with a 22 pistol, just have to hit in the right place!
That’s why I didn’t hear about it on the news…..White cop, White perp.
Nothing to see hear!
If you really wanna get pissed, listen to the commentary from the fucking asshole in the car. I wish he would have been Stickman.
I’m almost certain that the asshole on your car giving commentary was Black. I wonder what his commentary would have been if your perp had been Black? That video would have provoked more rioting, looting, arson and murders.
$100,000 you’re correct. It’s a sad state of affairs. So much for treating everyone equally huh? I DO treat everyone equally, so fuck that guy in the car. He’s a piece of shit.
The cameraman is likely to win Worldstar’s “Golden Black and Mild” Award for best video documentation of someone who thought is was “whiteboy day” when it definitely wasn’t “whiteboy day…..”
While the Deputy probably should of shot sooner, this video dispels the flawed logic of magazine capacity restrictions.
“…this video dispels the flawed logic of magazine capacity restrictions.”
Oh, please. The cop is a highly trained firearm specialist, and earned the right to more ammo in a magazine. The average gun owner isn’t a government certified highly trained firearm specialist. Thus, the average gun owner would only just waste even more bullets.
I don’t know if I’m a “government certified highly trained firearm specialist.” Uncle did call me a marksman, years ago. So, I guess I’ve “earned the right to more ammo in a magazine”?
Funny, when I suggest that you should maybe be a veteran before you can exercise your right to vote, all kinds of people jump on my ass. And, here you are suggesting that I’m on the right track?
How ’bout we forget the silly verbiage, and you just blow it out your arse.
“How ’bout we forget the silly verbiage, and you just blow it out your arse.”
How ’bout you re-read the comment, a bit more slowly? All the clues are there.
It was sarcasm.
In this Jurisdiction , the Sheriff Dept does NOT respond to 911 calls , do traffic stops , investigate crimes , etc , the County PD does . The Sheriff Dept secures the Courthouse , and serves routine Court papers .
The Deputy just happened to be in the right place at the right time when this guy was running amok .
( Not slamming anyone , that’s just how things are organized in populous Counties in this region .)
The Sheriff Dept issues G17 . Not sure of the issue round. The PD uses 147 Gold Dot if I recall , unknown if Sheriff piggybacks off their contract , or uses something different .
That the person filming didn’t help the cop, or even move for their own safety, but stayed right in the middle of it to make racist commentary and upload it to the internet is quite possibly the most disgusting, offensive thing I have seen on the internet in a while.
I’ve seen people shot to death before, and I’ve seen people scared beyond reason doing some stupid-in-hindsight things, but the casual approval of the commentary..
Have you no compassion? No soul? No sense of decency? That this sociopath is running around collecting internet points on the same platforms that tell me *I* am the racist in this conversation just… what?
Well said. Turns out, all people are mostly the same and should be held to mostly the same standards. And the car guy is a disgusting excuse for a human being. Fucking asshole.
Good shoot. About 3 seconds too late for my taste, but OK.
I’m sure there is an exhaustive list of why the guy lost his mind and endangered everyone. He didn’t get smoked because of his problems, he got smoked because he was a lethal threat acting in that capacity. White, Black, Red, Yellow, etc. is immaterial.
While this is fine to launch yet another caliber war (so lame at this point) and discuss style points, the officer only needed to do one thing: he eliminated the threat to the lives of the community. He did just that. Tada! He’s done for the day. If you want to award style points, do so because he is still breathing. He gets my respect for dealing with a deadly predator by wading in and risking his life. Yeah, I know he gets paid, pension, Yada, yada… still…respect.
So much for the “white privilege” myth. May we now expect chapters of White Lives Matter to spring up nationwide and go on asinine rampages in solidarity with this alleged victim of police brutality?
This is why I carry a Shield 40….. Snappy but potent….
Meh, his life doesn’t matter…
I’m an FNX .45 double stack kinda guy when I’m on the street.
Stupid to not go for the head after a couple rounds fail to stop him.
“Stupid to not go for the head after a couple rounds fail to stop him.”
Are we certain the cop didn’t do just that?
Cell phone cameras are getting good. You can actually see the hits.
First two rounds – camera is off the subject
Next several – all strike low, (lower abdoman)
Last five were all in the thoracic cavity.
Basic failure drill: 2 to the body, 1 to the head. If two shots to the body don’t work, one shot to the head is next. Basic police firearms training, at least what I received in my training.
Ding ding ding…we have a winner…!!!!
THIS is why you practice head shots…
Yeah I know caliber doesn’t matter that’s why I carry 1911 in 45 acp or in bear country S&W 629 in 44 magnum. Never impressed with the wonder 9.
He was looking for death. You have to wonder what happened in his life to push him over.
Suicide by cop.
Mother f–king right
I GUARANTEE he wouldn’t have taken 12 .45acp to the chest and still be smiling….. GUARANTEED!
Let alone 10mm!
I’m sure the extra 75 foot pounds of energy extra that .45 provides totally would have made a difference.
When it comes to killing the.45acp is pretty good. I’m not a fan of muzzle velocity and energy being the say so. That big fat slow bullet seems to work better then the light and fast. The Army found that out in the Philippines along time ago.
Blah, blah, blah. Even “hot” 9mm just sucks, and you can’t shoot well enough to make up for the fact. Handguns are a piss-poor option at best, and 9mm is a LOOOOOOOONG way from being best. Man-up and carry a bigger gun.
One round to the melon…done and done…
Very sad. I’ll be the one dissenter here – a fit, trained officer could’ve put this guy down without killing him. Perp could’ve been off his meds, had a fight with the wife, had a medical issue, freaked over COVID, etc. Seen it countless times. You can’t throw shots or kill everyone that throws a punch or hits you with a stick.
I’m retired combat military and LE now running private security here and overseas. Call me a dinosaur but that’s why in my details I only take big guys, former combat military for PSD. Sometimes women (also big gals) for close protection. Incompetent, untrained fat deputies or 5′ nothing women (and men) do not belong in law enforcement. Either they get hurt or killed or others end up unnecessarily dead. Every cop needs to able to win a bar fight.
I know, “but he attacked the cop!!!” or “What if he had a …??” Yeah. It’s called trigger discipline. This officer sure didn’t and it’ll be on his conscience the rest of his life. All the gung ho types here don’t appreciate that even the good, 100% no other choice shoots stick with you forever.
And a 9 is all a well trained operator needs. Shot placement, not ballistics.
Why risk your life to “take someone down”? We have seen “well fit” officers attempt take downs and fail miserably. It happens to the best fighters in the UFC too. He was warned, gun drawn, and he chose his next actions not caring. No sympathy. I am all for having a discussion about hindering police abilities, but when it’s my life or some crazy road rage fucker with a death wish… wish granted. It’s not like 99% of us would feel good about it, but it’s why we carry. I’m not going to give anyone the upper hand, ever. And yes, you can shoot someone for attacking you. It’s literally part of self defense. If they bring a sub par weapon that is their fault. All that training and you would risk it for a “what if…”? Shit’ll get you killed.
It’s a judgement call, deputy had other easy options he didn’t try and everyone will pay now. In this situation the deputy will personally be sued, county will be sued, big payouts will be made. Been there, seen it (fortunately not me or anyone under my command). First, deputy should not have been on the job. He’s out of shape, unsuited for the job, and didn’t appear to try any non lethal means like that big giant can of mace on his hip. Trial lawyers will have a field day with this one.
I don’t want to limit LE options, I want to limit recruitment to those suited to the job. I also want to see more training and more regular certifications so we keep unsuitable and poorly trained officers off the job. This was an avoidable shoot. Even a well trained, 5′ 3″ female officer would’ve maced and then tased him, problem solved.
My advice to all the gung ho armchair shooters out there, if you carry you need serious liability coverage. And remember, the bet self defense tool is between your ears. There is a concept in the law known as the doctrine of matching force. Guy threatens you with a stick, don’t shoot him to death. You’ll lose everything.
I found the guy^ that didn’t read the article.
“The deputy attempted to deploy his Taser, according to Popkin. When he wasn’t successful, the deputy shot the man, the sheriff said.”
It was more than a threat, dude. He utilized the stick as a weapon and struck the officer. All you are saying is you would allow the criminal or anyone else the opportunity to gain the upper hand and kill you.
You are an armchair warrior, regardless of your experience. You said it yourself… “without getting into the what if’s” but that is literally all you are doing. Do us all a favor and stfu. Also, read the fucking article before you comment.
Montana Actual: The opinions of people who say “dude” or “bro”, drop F bombs, ad hominem, and otherwise froth at the mouth can always be safely dismissed.
A lunatic bashes you over the head while you have a gun pointed on him and what do you think you’d be able to do? He’s got 2 feet of stick and looks intent on impaling you with it. That cop could of squeezed off when he raised it over his head.
It was on and over in about 15 seconds. He did what he had to do. Just be glad there are still men who rush in when everyone rushes out.
I’m with you. It was technically a good shoot — if I were on the grand jury I wouldn’t charge the cop — but it was a regrettable shoot in that a more physically capable officer could have restrained the attacker non-lethally. Cops never seem to go to nightsticks anymore.
greatest narration ever! play that shit for a grand jury!
It’s really a pretty fast stop when you compare the time the officer first started shooting to the time the man fell. Bullets aren’t lightening bolts. It takes time to bleed out. I bet the guy had no armor or drugs, just a stubborn crazy psycho.
It always amazes me that so many hunt but don’t seem to make the correlation to defensive shooting.
Its almost as if the cop should have used “pepper spray” first and then subdued the individual.
The rotten stick the perp had broke in twain when he clobbered that very stout big boy over his hotdog packin neck head. I morbidly jest. A man is dead that should not be dead.
The use of force is disproportionate here.
1 officer versus 1 man is not reliable odds in ending a situation peacefully.
I have seen good officers work in tandem and some roided up young officer put his head down and charge a suspect lif him off the ground and take him to the deck like it should happen.
We have to have some standards for officers.
I don’t know where this is all going but its not going any place good. This tubby Sherriff should be be a desk jocky
Nice of you ass holes to glorify the killing of a vet, an elite one at that. The guy is wearing a Nightstalker shirt . He probably had ptsd
The truth about idiots
“The guy is wearing a Nightstalker shirt . He probably had ptsd.”
This old guy’s a Night Stalker, whadda think about that?
He wears a Night Stalker’s T-shirt, he wears a Night Stalkers hat.
He wears a Night Stalker’s raincoat, he wears their same style shoes.
And every Saturday evening, he reads the Sunday news.
(Note: I have a United Federation comm badge, but didn’t graduate from the Federation Academy; never served on a Starship)
How about you ghouls wait for all the facts about the guy before dancing in his blood? There have been people given psychoactive drugs without their knowledge or in phase 3 trials or subjected to sleep deprivation etc who went off the deep end through no fault of their own. This looks like a tragedy one way or the other, not something to gloat over. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
If the person is not armed with a firearm the pelvic region is an excellent target… in fact, one could argue it’s the best target.
Easier to hit than the head but usually quicker to immobilize with one or two shots than the chest. It mechanically disables someone rather than depending on blood pressure loss.
Between multiple perps out wilding and zombie craziods like this guy, I ‘ve been rethinking double taps and single stacks. Just bought a 15 rnd wunder nine and thinking seriously about a 20+ rnd wunder nine. Ive had dreams like this where I empty the mag and they just keep coming. D-A-M-N!
“Ive had dreams like this where I empty the mag and they just keep coming. D-A-M-N!”
Read something, long years ago, that we can only actually see in our dreams things we have experienced. One “popular” experience is the inability to dispatch the bad guys in our dreams because we have never done that in real life, thus cannot impose that picture onto our dreams.
Whether true or not, that explanation seems to fit the dreams, so I’m going with it.
@Sam I Am How does that explain the flying dreams I’ve had all of my life? I can assure you I’ve never experienced being able to fly and glide around under my own power; yet I’ve had that dream since I was a kid. Your dream theory fails. 🤣
Many, if not most stops are psychological stops. Person realizes they’ve been shot and quits. Someone not in possession of their conscious mind may not stop until the body simply fails. Nothing unusual here. If you don’t score hits to the central nervous system, it will take some time for O2 levels to drop enough to incapacitate a human.
Can we take a moment to talk about the racism on display by the person recording the video?
It’s been brought up. It’s appalling.
I think it’s amusing, and perfectly appropriate, see my remarks above. Particularly considering the black narrator has likely been subject to official force from law-enforcement more than once in his life and had to comport himself in an appropriate way, here he sees someone who is not doing that, is stepping out, going waaay too far and he wants him to get his instant Karma. Schadenfreude is a very normal human reaction for anyone, you can see it on all those videos on YouTube oddly enough entitled instant karma, where people run red lights right in front of a cop or whatever. There is a lot of sick racist BLM shit infecting our society at the moment, but I wouldn’t over analyze or over play this narrator’s style of talking into the next BLM manifesto, because it surely isn’t. To make it even more simple for you simpletons, he was rooting for the cop not the bad guy and they were both white. You might have a point if he’d been rooting for the crazy dead idiot to hit the cop rather than the cop shoot the crazy dead idiot. You savvy?
From reading some of the posts regarding this article, it’s obvious to me some people are never satisfied with LE. LE can’t win for losing with some people. If these people ever need to call 911 for an emergency, I hope they give a very descriptive description of what the responding officer should look like that they want to respond. Better yet, don’t call 911, deal with it yourself and the only person you will be able to criticize is yourself–if you survive.
Anyone got some o’ that there Caliber Wars Popcorn?
‘Cause I’m down to my last case of it, and y’all keep fuggin’ arguin’ like a pack of beaten hounds…..
Yea, it’s pretty fucken stupid. Plenty of cases where a couple 9mm rounds have taken down a perp and plenty of cases where bigger calibers have not stopped them too. Cocaine is a helluva drug.
Use a 9mm on that charging bear, because I heard it worked once. Also heard a 50 BMG failed to stop an old lady, so that’s clearly useless. Montana fucken stupid.
Thanks for moving the conversation forward in a logical and fact-based way.
Cool story, but there’s no reason for your fat shaming. That’s just the socially acceptable target these days but, go fuck yourself. I’m sure you have an issue we can pick on you big nosed, small dick, 70 iq, ring worm sporting, dry skin having, dyslexic asshole.
@Fatty Mcgee The issue is that his physical fitness clearly has affected his ability to do his job well. They had an asshole-ish way of saying it, but I think most of these guys here were saying that if that deputy had been in better shape, he could have brought the situation to a conclusion without having had to shoot him to death.
TTAG using that drunk monkey to do page layout again? This is horrible.
No denying that guy is road kill.
Next question, did the cops get the carcass?
I’m getting tired of Us buying the bullets for the cops when they wont share. Nope there buddies show up, load em up in the meat wagon and drive off.
I know where they been hiding them too, under a big rock that even a grizzly bear cant dig up.
Theres kids in china starving to death. Eat your peas. I never did figure out what my eating peas had to do with kids in China starving to death? Somehow Mom knew though and I didn’t argue with my parents.
Veteran friend of mine with much middle east combat time said this guy is clearly PSTD and on something. He is wearing a US Army Night Stalker shirt.
“This is horrible.”
Certainly not an improvement, nor hip. Not sure why these changes are not user tested before released to the forum in general.
Dan, gray text doesn’t show well on PC or phone.
“???? Did we not watch the same video? He is fat as hell.”
Not knowing what is what, I merely pointed out a possibility. Perhaps a fat cop is better than no cop. Not seeing how fat or skinny would make the bad guy deader.
…..Dan Z. This new configuration still lands one in the middle of comments when trying to use the REPLY function. Then one must scroll through multiple other comments just to get to the reply box. This surely cannot be seen as being a state-of-the-art feature.
“For those of us carrying single-stack 9mm or .380 pistols, or .38 revolvers, the attacker here would have probably gone hands-on with you after you exhausted your 5, 6 or 7 rounds.”
He was done after 3-4 rounds. He took 2-3 steps after the first shots, each slower and bigger as in he was losing it and then fell.
Fit cop could have popped off 4 rounds center mass and backed up faster and watched him drop. Instead fat man goes wild and unloads and is still able to back up fast enough.
All that said I think the shooting could have been avoided. That stick broke easily on the first whack of the cop, so the blow was probably not that great. Mace him, then strong arm him to the ground.
Care to shift your withering armchair quarterback commentary and analysis to the Super Bowl? I’m sure we all want to hear it.
Appears to be the linkedin profile of the decedent. Doesn’t show military service, but that doesn’t mean there wasn’t any. Sad, all the same. Looks like suicide by cop.
This lay out sucks. TTAG tried it before and it was panned by all. Did you heed your customer base? No.
I will be looking for another site to haunt.
Just put together a piece on MD cops firearms, scrolled off for a second, came back and the comment box was gone… If this is your “new and improved” version guess I’ll have to take a break for awhile til you get it sorted out… Good luck with that…. Looks like something miner and company might come up with..
Not that I am an expert; but the first shot may have been as fatally effective as any of the others. A shot through the heart isn’t necessarily going to stop a person for 10 or 15 seconds – or so I’ve heard.
Why was he killed?
Chief Infomration Security Officer (CISO) | National Student Clearinghouse
Chief Information Security Officer (CISO) and Director, Information Security at the National Student Clearinghouse. Over 20+ years total experience in Information Security as an auditor, penetration tester and consultant, with 12+ years as a program manager.”
What did he know?
Was he Q?
White killed by white and the N….. recording says “privileged”, “gets what he gets”. Yet your breed is accountable for only 13% of the population yet 80% of all violent crime. Explain your ignorance to me..
Wow, TTAG still has a lot of bada$$es who’ve never been in any fights and are in great shape. I’d take a fat cop like this guy over a keyboard commando any day, and I’ve actually used deadly force in real life.
Good shot. Maybe if it was a black suspect BLM would be burning (even more) cities. So much for white privilege. I’ll still be doing cardio, because heart disease kills a lot more people than bad guys.
If this would have been a black man shot and a white man saying “shoot him, that’s the shit I like to see”, there would have been a race war but it’s ok because it was a black man speaking of a white man In that way right??
This was excessive force. This was Lokant a medical situation. In many cases between drug use to diabetes can cause blacks outs where people go crazy and act literally as this man did. There’s no reason why over a stick the officer shouldn’t have tried pepper spray and electric shock first before using deadly force. He was likely suffering from something medical, hence why the first few shots did nothing. He wasn’t in his right mind at that point. My uncle suffered a diabetic shock and went off crazy towards cops. He was never a violent person, yet diabetes with an incredibly high level can cause one to black out and act unknowingly psycho. This man exhibited similar signs. His service weapon should have been the last resort, not His first.
“This was excessive force. ”
I see no reason for law enforcement agents/officers to be armed with any weapon. If a suspect refuses to comply with legal orders to cease and desist, then the agent/officer should just back away, and try again some other time.
Better 10,000 suspects “get away”, than even one be harmed.
Dude! Change your oil!
“If you aren’t trained you will pause to reflect on the consequences.”
Provably not true. There are an estimated 250,000 defensive gun uses each year. How many of those resulted in the attacker being injured or killed? More than one? Do yo suspect everyone of those defenders were trained, and only that fact allowed them to successfully defend themselves?
OK, 250,000 is a big number. Just think about the defensive shootings you have heard about on/in news reports? Do you believe those people legally defending their lives were all trained?
The difference between shooting without considering the consequences of causing the death of another human, and hesitating because of consequences, is mindset…not training.
You are correct, however, if you think you would hesitate to possibly take a life in self-defense, you and a firearm should be total strangers.
If you don’t hit vital organs you are just tearing flesh and waiting for them to bleed out, regardless of caliber. I have an idea this perp was on some stiff pharmaceuticals.
“I have an idea this perp was on some stiff pharmaceuticals.”
Not a necessary factor. For all the fun of caliber wars, here are five links discussing up to 20 gunshot wounds that did not kill, including an article about 10 people who unsuccessfully shot themselves in the head (I have a distant relative who tried to eat a 12ga shotgun, and is still walking around).
“I would like to think that if I had to defend myself or someone else I could but I would never be the same again.”
That’s mostly Hollywood and Snowflake lefty pyscho-babble.
Yes, it is true you wouldn’t be the same….simply because you would go from someone who never shot anyone, to someone who shot someone. That makes you different from the vast, vast majority of the public. Being different does not mean you are mentally and emotionally crippled, crazed, calloused, hardened, unfeeling or uncaring. But if you would hesitate for even a millisecond, ditch the guns.
“Beretta U22 Neos reminds me of a pellet gun, my neighbor has one.”
Originally wanted a .22LR in a 1911 style, but the Neos looks like a space blaster ray gun.
WHEW THA COMMENTS . HOWEVER JUST NEVER KNOW WHAT HAPPENS NEXT .
IF AND IF , DONE THIS OR THAT . MADE ME WONDER IF HAD A DEATH WISH .
JUST GLAD NO ONE IF ANYONE IN BACK GROUND GOT HIT WITH OFF /STRAY ROUND ,
SO MUCH CAN GO RIGHT AND SO MUCH CAN GO WRONG .
INSTRUCTOR FOR MY LTC , BEST GUN FIGHT YOUR CAN HAVE IS ONE YOU DON’T HAVE .
STAY ALERT AND SAFE YA ALL .
Good argument for ‘suicide by cop’
As a Registered Nurse of many years, I think he was Mentally Disturbed for some unknown reason. For starters, he needed an Emergency Rescue and a big dose of an Antipsychotic Drug to sedate him until his problem is uncovered. Does he have a history of similar behavior? Is he a killer or has he a brain tumor? Get the picture?
So the officer was to let him beat him and possibly take his weapon just because he was mentally disturbed? Are you serious? Get that picture?
I love how you thugs justify everything with strawman arguments. You know that wasn’t the alternative.
I see a large number of opinions from those who almost certainly have no experience upon which to base those opinions, which is common for this sort of thing. I have yet to see a comment from a police officer, or anyone who has actually been a participant in something like this, or who has even been confronted by a completely psychotic human being bent upon destruction. Maybe I just missed it.
Opinions are exactly like certain bodily orifices.
I note those who think that the force was ‘excessive;’ For those of you, I have to tell you that the person against whom the force is being used often decides how much force is necessary from a police officer and when it comes into play, and it’s always ‘one step up.’
For example: If the violent, threatening, capable aggressor has a stick, you do not meet the stick with another stick; You go one step up. If they have a knife, you do not draw a knife if you have a gun; You draw a gun. If they attack, then they are shot.
A police officer CANNOT take the chance of losing a confrontation. His ‘losing’ means that he is going to be incapacitated, will lose any weapons that he has including his sidearm, and he and others may very well die as a result.
As mentioned in this article, the officer attempted to deploy a 60%-effective Taser–not a wonder weapon, not always effective, not a panacea–and it either didn’t work, or he couldn’t bring it to bear.
There is no mention of OC spray; Many officers do not carry it if their department issues Tasers, and one can’t deploy what one doesn’t have. It is also not uniformly effective, especially on those under the influence of some drugs. Part of police OC training, by the way, includes ‘fighting through’ the effects of OC. It can be done.
A drug-crazed aggressor will not be instantly subdued by being hit with a baton; If a few pistol bullets to the chest do not make an aggressor stop being aggressive, being hit with a stick is unlikely to do so. Further, a baton is shorter than this aggressor’s stick; Having the advantage of reach and distance is a solid attribute in a stick-fight, don’t you think? Drugged individuals, or real psychotics, can continue to fight with broken bones.
In an up-close-and-personal, one-on-one, unable-to-retreat, everything-going-wrong, life-threatening encounter, using a pistol against this psychotic freak was absolutely and completely justified, even if he’d only had his hands and fists.
Many have, rightly, commented that the ‘standard’ response in a shoot-to-stop incident is two rounds spaced to ‘centre mass,’ a reevaluation of effect, and another round to the cranial vault via the eyes/nose area of the face if the desired effect of ‘stopping’ has not occurred. That’s the proper, calm, cool, collected ‘training’ response; It, however, disregards the human factor.
We are all taught that we are not trying to kill others when we are called upon to shoot them to make them stop threatening our lives; We are merely ‘shooting to stop.’ Subconsciously, taking that final, irrevocable step of shooting another human being in the eyes at close range, where you can SEE its effect, knowing that it is absolutely, positively going to kill them DRT, is something that many people are simply not going to DO.
In this instance, mind, the officer shot this fellow multiple times in the chest, close up, and there were no immediate nifty holes, no spurts of blood, no obvious physical effects for some time. Shoot someone in the face at that distance, and the effect is immediate, graphic, and quite disturbing.
Then there’s that part about the person that is shot not dying like they do in Horrywood. . . Yeah, it takes TIME for 200lbs of living man to die, even if shot in the heart.
Yeah, this is as real as it gets. If you haven’t been there and Seen the Elephant, perhaps you should reserve comment, and be grateful that someone else was ‘there’ instead of you.
By the way, if you HAVE ever done something like this, or been in this situation, feel free to weigh in.
No, you are NOT ever the same afterward. Unless you are a psychopath.
I feel competent to weigh in, as I have been there and done that one night at 1:00 AM in a large South Western city. That was the night I was converted to a .45 ACP fan. I shot the attacker center mass with a .357 and it took way too long for him to realize he was supposed to cease and desist the attack. I carried a 9MM off duty at the time. The next day I bought a 1911 in .45 ACP, and carried hollow points with a cavity large enough to swim in if filled with water. I’m not trying to start a debate about the best cartridge here, as the .357 Mag. with 125 grain hollow points of good design is a proven stopper. It expands and transfers energy to the target, ut the .45 don’t have to expand, although a good hollow point really helps even it.
As far as causing me trauma, it didn’t happen. Sure I didn’t want to kill anyone, but he was the aggressor and could have stopped his death at any time up to the attack. My department counseling was two days on the desk until the investigation cleared me, and the shift commander called me from the desk into his office and asked if I could drop the hammer on a man if needed. At my affirmative answer he said to hit the street. The first call I received was a man with a gun. I answered that call with no reservations as to whether I could shoot if needed, but did cause some soul searching. Did I want to shoot someone? The answer came up, no I did not want to, but could if needed. That was the night I realized I was as
completely sane as any man can be and still become a cop where you are underpaid and the Villon if you protect the citizens as you’ve sworn to.
.45acp, slightly less than a half inch in diameter, 25.4mm is an inch, 45mm? Don’t think so…….
“More whites are killed a year than blacks ever will by police.”
Like other statistical proofs, it all depends on “what is, is”.
Pick any number of white people killed by police, and any number of black/POC killed by police. Raw numbers tell one story, proportional counts tell another. Which method is telling the real “truth”?
“No, you are NOT ever the same afterward. Unless you are a psychopath.”
Killed people by the hundreds. Killed fathers, grandfathers, uncles, brothers. Didn’t give a moment’s thought to the consequences to the dead, or their families. The calculus was quite simple: I killed the other guy, and went home. Or, they killed me and they went home. I voted for me going hone every time…with no regret. Yet, there is no evidence I was, or am, a psychopath.
Yes, as explained earlier, once you take another human’s life, you are different, but there is no law of physics (or anything else) that dictates you will be permanently, or even temporarily, damaged; it is a choice.
Note that I didn’t say ‘damaged,’ did I? I just said ‘not the same.’ I am not ‘damaged,’ just, ‘different.’ Of course, some might argue the point. In any case, all are changed; Being ‘damaged, as you say, is a choice–or a lack of proper counseling IF it is needed.
You sound like a sociopath.
Sam I Am does sound at least like a sociopath.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. One less oxygen thief on this planet. His name, by the way, was Kevin Costlow.
Did he just expect that officer to do nothing while he beat him about the head and shoulders with the stick?
John Wayne once said, “Life is hard, it is harder when you are stupid”. I guess we can paraphrase it by saying “Life is hard and short, it is harder and shorter when you are stupid like Kevin Costlow”
That’s why I have an AR15 pistol in .50 Beowulf 400 grain hollow point. This would end in one shot.
Pos racist taping this needs to lose his job. This guy is someones father and a worker at a company that supports this. Find out who this racist is!
Pos racist taping this needs to lose his job. This guy is someones father and a worker at a company that supports this. Find out who this racist is! I cant believe people allow this type of talk and ignore the fact he is screaming to the cop to kill him. This guys obviously has mental problems. You dont need to kill him you could have tazed or waited for back up. This will make many people racist watching this.
You are obviously a real half melted snowflake. Have you ever been in a life and death situation? You remind me of the city councilman from the city where I worked. I had to shoot a man in self-defense and to defend a fellow officer. Things were tense and close and moving fast. The councilman asked why I didn’t shoot the gun out of the attacker’s hand. I really wanted to show him how stupid that remark was by engaging him up close and personal but the city attorney intervened.
show this video anytime a politician says you only need a 10 round magazine
It should have been over at the 5 second mark.
Do we now “cancel” this guy for being of a different race to the assailant and shouting “that’s what I like to see”?… I’m sure we all know the story when it’s the opposite way around… when do we start rioting and looting? I mean.. I know the guy was breaking the law but that doesn’t matter,.. right?
Well, the way I see this ONE SHOT IN THE CHEST . IF THE SUBJECT DID NOT GO DOWN THE HEAD SHOT WOULD BE NEXT! Of course it would have happened within 5ft. Of me.
“Note that I didn’t say ‘damaged,’ did I? I just said ‘not the same.’”
We are somewhat in agreement, and my exchange relates to the relevance of “Not the same”, or “different”.
Note that the phrase, “Not the same” in connection with any traumatic event is generally accepted as being mentally, emotionally (or both ) damaged/diminished. I did explain that being “different”, or “not the same” is as simple as one second you are a person who has not shot another human, the next you are among those who have shot a person; you are not the same.
In the context of the discussed shooting incident, if a person needn’t suffer mental or emotional damage, what is the point of using the phrase, “Not the same”?
The point of “Not the same” is that if you take another human life, and don’t suffer remorse, guilt, doubt, self-loathing…there actually is something wrong with you.
I reject that broad brush characterization.
(cue Ja’es Brown) GOOD Gawd-eh!
Never bring a stick to a gunfight.
“Trooper bled out from the. 22 wound, Blackburn got life in prison.”
“This is a .357 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off…”
“How about you ghouls wait for all the facts about the guy before dancing in his blood?”
Not dancing at all. Simply pointing out that an object can represent many things. In this instance, the article seemed to draw an unfounded conclusion that because a person is wearing a particular item, it is indisputably proof of something. Anyone can buy/be gifted a t-shirt (I wear logo caps from all sorts of government agencies, but, intentionally, not one from agencies I was part of).
Now….as for the blood: I don’t care where the attacker came from, his history, or his military service status. No one being attacked with a deadly, or potentially deadly, weapon has an obligation to analyze the mental state of the attacker. Stop the threat, then sort things out (maybe). If there is a life or death choice for me to make, I choose me every time, without mental reservation, or purpose of evasion.
Trigger happy ghouls justify jumping in and killing a guy who twisted off wielding a rotten stick, don’t care about unknown facts, clearly don’t even want to try non-lethal alternatives. That mentality ends in death for too many innocents.
What a boon to society we have so many reasonable folks like you gunned & badged. Whatever you do, don’t take the slightest risk to save potential innocent lives that twist off through no fault of their own. Rush in, blast away, then call the guy a druggie or a lunatic. In this case, the officer didn’t try using mace, and you know damn well there were other alternatives.
Lots of ghouls here seem overdue for a dynamic entry to shoot someone’s dog or a confused sleepy senior citizen coming downstairs armed because they don’t have the decency to knock and serve an unconstitutional asset forfeiture warrant at the correct address or it was the right address and they knew he was innocent like Malibu rancher Donald Scott. Or kneeling for 10 minutes on a guy’s neck who can’t breathe. Or sniping a mother’s jaw off who was armed only with her baby and only wanted to be left alone. Or burning 89 “dangerous” religious “cultists” alive. Or “helping” another Tony Timpa die. Then pat each other on the back and give each other commendations.
Back The Blue Whatever They Do!
“Re: Old. So what?. Could be an officer. Could be lifer enlisted.”
Could be either of the above, or neither. So what?
So you’re a trigger happy ghoul, that’s what. Ok when YOU speculate he’s an illegal drug addict though.
Tragedy. Too many ghouls on this page.
“Tragedy. Too many ghouls on this page.”
In the sense of “tragedy” as understood by the ancient Greeks, it is a story/illustration of a person destroyed by their own character flaws and mistakes. The incident discussed would fit that definition. However….
In modern sense, “tragedy” is assigned to any unwelcome reversal of fortune, even when a character/person had nothing to do with the circumstances leading to the “tragedy”. Declaring something a “tragedy” is more a statement of sympathy/compassion, than a lesson in behavior.
The shooting incident described in the original article might be a true “tragedy” (object lesson on how not to act), but does not justify smypathy/compassion for a self-made corpse. And no, the episode doesn’t result in a tragedy for the family of the deceased. Failure to sympathize is not evidence of enjoyment, self-gratification, encouragement of similar events.
Good grief, ghoul, there are many situations in which it wasn’t his fault. Give your desperate ghoulishness and self-justification a rest.
“Whatever you do, don’t take the slightest risk to save potential innocent lives that twist off through no fault of their own. ”
Absolutely. There is no moral or legal obligation to risk my life in favor of an attacker. There is no glorious, heroic, moral victory in dying because you wanted to be compassionate. A foolish death is simply a foolish death.
Trigger happy? If you leave me alone, I leave you alone. If you shout insults at me, I may shout insults back at you. If you attack me with a deadly weapon, I will not waste a nano second of inquiry into your motivation before using a deadly weapon in defense. If you attack me with a deadly weapon because you are a lunatic I will defend myself with a deadly weapon; that is the price you pay for living in a “free” society. You are free to be a lunatic, and I am free to defend myself based on your lunatic attack.
(You are correct, I am not susceptible to guilt trips)
“Ok when YOU speculate he’s an illegal drug addict though.”
I am not speculating any such thing. My comments have been directly related to the attack, and response (except my excursion into the folly of supposing a t-shirt decoration explains anything about a persons background).
If you attack me with a deadly weapon, I have no interest in your motivation, period. I have only an interest in ending the attack with me alive and uninjured. If, in the aftermath, you be daid, tough. If, in the aftermath, you not be daid, so be it.
Note: I am not interested in stopping a deadly attack such that the attacker can never again attack someone. I only want the attack stopped.
“Good grief, ghoul, there are many situations in which it wasn’t his fault.”
When my life is at risk, I don’t care whether the attacker is at “fault” or not (presuming I did not initiate the attack). I have no moral dictate to make such a determination. You are a free agent. If you choose to die while contemplating the background and motivation of your attacker, that is your choice to make. However, you have no moral superiority for making such a risky decision. My life, in any circumstance of attack, is more valuable than that of the attacker.
Now, I admit I would be very interested in your experience of enduring a deadly attack, wherein you voluntarily delayed your natural, civil and human right to defend yourself because you wanted to be sure the attacker’s motivation justified your defense.
“Your dream theory fails. ”
Not my theory, just something I once read about dreams. I could speculate about ways one can dream something never done, but associated and expanded upon; no point in that. Fact is, no one really knows (lotsa theories) what dreams are all about, what causes them, and if they really do have anything more valuable than entertainment.
Lighten up, Sam. Or is it a personal challenge to give yourself something to take issue with in every single comment?
Learn to joke.
Stephanie, I was a sniper in the military for 47 years, a few after I mustered out you were asking why no central mass? It’s a matter of personal choice. I go for two in the voice box. The victim will bleed out, panicking as he does. Unable to breathe, his arms may flail. They are correct in telling you to shoot at central mass, hard to miss that way.
Thank you for your answer, LT! I appreciate it. Thanks for your service too, btw. From a fellow veteran (USN). I had a special assignment and we weren’t issued guns nor did we ever train with them, after the shoddy one day “training” we had in boot camp- so I’m new to guns. Bought a Glock 43X and am training to get my CCW someday. Right now I still suck, hard. 👍🏻❤️
Im a gun toting republican and I doubt I’d have shot him that quick..Cop had better options..But he’ll be cleared..Me as a civilian would be in jail
There is no reason in the Workd to kill anyone!
He could of took his legs or something like that !
That man has children and family that depend on him.
Any one of us have bad days and no one deserves to be killed because of it !!!
Sean, I’ve never gotten in my car, driven recklessly, run TWO cars off the road, forcing one of them into a telephone pole, and then gotten a big stick and gone after those people after they crashed…have you? I’ve not done that on a good day or a bad day. What kinds of things do you do on a bad day????
I’m not saying he deserved to be killed- but I am saying that the “gosh we all have bad days” argument here is pretty ridiculous.
Was the guy who was killed wearing a badge? it looked like it.
It would be interesting to know the blood toxicology from the autopsy! This guy had to be high as a kite! I may have rethink my carry capacity!
“For those of us carrying single-stack 9mm or .380 pistols, or .38 revolvers, the attacker here would have probably gone hands-on with you after you exhausted your 5, 6 or 7 rounds.”
As I’ve frequently said here… Five- and six-shot revolvers simply aren’t valid options for self-defense. The New York Police Department developed the “New York Reload” for a reason.
A self-defense firearm should hold at least ten rounds and more is always better (subject to concealability if concealed carried). If a single stack is required for some reason (perhaps concealability), it should hold at least eight rounds, and preferably be of a higher caliber (.45). And of course one should carry either a backup magazine, or a backup firearm or both.
And for those who say cops need more rounds than civilians, so civilians don’t need high capacity, keep in mind the nut case described could easily have been attacking a civilian instead of a cop. Statistics concerning average rounds fired in a civilian conflict are irrelevant when one plans for one’s self-defense. You plan for the outliers as much as possible. We’d all like to have War Machine’s shoulder-mounted mini-guns, but you do what you can realistically. And that means carry as much firepower as can be realistically carried successfully.
“…and preferably be of a higher caliber (.45).”
Real men don’t go with less than point five oh.
While I am WHOLEHEARTEDLY in agreement with you on utilizing the highest capacity magazines your weapon will hold, not all revolvers are created equal. My 5 shot S&W .500 Magnum holds 5 rounds, each of which generates slightly more muzzle energy than a .300 Winchester Magnum rifle, and with it’s compensator limits recoil to that of a .44 Magnum hunting load…
The Mark XIX Desert Eagle is a gas-operated, semi-automatic pistol with a 7 round capacity in .50 AE.
And it looks nice, too.
A buddy of mine with whom I’ve hunted feral hogs in Texas has one of these, and while not as powerful as my S&W .500, it’s PLENTY powerful enough for use as an anti-personnel device. Fun to shoot, too!
This is an ancient article. Why is it coming up new now?
“This is an ancient article. Why is it coming up new now?”
Always new viewers tuning in.
Best View i have ever seen !
Zombies come in all sizes, shapes and colors. Practicing head shots on paper targets is not the same as hitting the head in the wild. But, it’s a start. I don’t care what the guy was before the shooting, but at the time of the shooting he needed to die, quicker would have been better. Chuck Norris was not in the area at the time.
This officer is in GREAT NEED of training, or he needs
to be fired – unacceptable performance, and if the
suspect had managed to bash him in the head before
he shot, this video would end with us watching this
maniac clubbing the officer to death. Also, this officer’s
slow and pathetic response to this attack could have
endangered others too, (if there were others who were
(also) under threat by this maniac). If the officer wants
to be a social worker, he should resign his commission.
Considering how much his dept. already paid for his training, it makes more sense for them to train him a little more. Am willing to bet this very video is now used as a training tool for police agencies across the nation…
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If the deputy had been fit and tough as many of them are, he could have taken that stick away from the man and knocked him down. Stunned him, billy-clubbed him, etc. 12 rounds to the torso is a last resort. A guy armed with a dry stick is hardly a real threat.