Personal Defense: Rioters are Damaging My Car…What Can I Legally Do?

riot attack vandalize car window

Shutterstock

By Emily Taylor

You’re walking out of the grocery store and heading toward your car. To your surprise, you see that a violent mob has descended on the parking lot and is vandalizing vehicles. What can you do? What should you do?

What if this happens in your driveway at home, rather than a public place? What rights do you have to defend your vehicle and property? These are more complicated questions than you think.

Life Is More Important Than Property

The starting point is this: in most states, the law favors lives over things. If you catch someone breaking into an unoccupied vehicle, you may have a tough time justifying the use of deadly force to protect the property. Property damage alone, such as spray-painting your vehicle, is rarely a justification for deadly force.

Verbal Provocation

A good general rule when you’re out in public is that verbal provocation isn’t enough to justify the use of force or deadly force. When confronted with a protester or rioter, for example, verbal threats without any indication that the person will act on those threats don’t justify the use of force in most states.

However, let’s say someone threatens you in addition to some other act like vandalizing your vehicle or trespassing on your property. You may be allowed to use force — but probably not deadly force — to stop the interference.

What About An Occupied Vehicle?

The situation usually changes when the vehicle is occupied. In the case of an attack on an occupied vehicle, you are no longer just protecting your car. You’re now also protecting a human life.

Many states — but not all — extend the added protections of the castle doctrine to occupied vehicles. But you need to make sure you know the law in your state. The Illinois castle doctrine, for instance, only covers occupied dwellings, not occupied vehicles.

protest vehicle car burned attack

(AP Photo/Morry Gash)

If your state does extend the castle doctrine to occupied vehicles and an assailant is unlawfully attempting to forcibly enter your car — your “castle” — you may be justified in using deadly force to protect yourself depending on the laws in your state.

What Crime Could I Be Charged With?

Most states have laws against “displaying” a weapon — especially a firearm — in a threatening or alarming manner. For example, Ohio law states it is a crime to display, brandish, or indicate someone possesses a firearm.

Although different states may use a different word, such as “exhibit” or “produce,” most states ultimately criminalize the same behavior: the intentional display of a firearm in a threatening manner.

Often, there is an exception to these “brandishing” crimes if the weapon was displayed in defense of a person. For that reason, it’s not advisable to intentionally display a firearm unless you reasonably fear that a life is in danger.

Displaying a Gun Versus Pointing It

Many states also draw an important distinction between displaying a firearm and pointing or discharging one. In Florida, it’s a misdemeanor crime to exhibit a weapon in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, and not in necessary self-defense.

In Texas, producing a weapon, as long as the actor’s purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he or she will use deadly force if necessary, constitutes a use of force (but not deadly force). Complicating this is the fact that courts, district attorneys, and police officers all can have different interpretations of this statute. However, it generally means you can display a gun as a warning in self-defense and the action will not be considered deadly force.

Similarly, Kansas specifically excludes threats of force from the definition of deadly force when the “actor’s purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that the actor will, if necessary, use deadly force in defense” of themself or another. This is a great legal protection because, as discussed above, deadly force is often not justified to defend against a property crime. In Kansas, a threat of force may be appropriate when dealing with damage to your vehicle by a vandal or looter.

As another example, in California, drawing or exhibiting a deadly weapon not in self-defense, under certain circumstances is a crime. So what does that mean? Whether loaded or unloaded, if a firearm is un-holstered or intentionally shown in a rude, angry, or threatening manner — other than in a self-defense situation — you could be arrested.

The same goes in Illinois (see here and here). If a person uses a firearm while putting another in fear of a battery — whether the firearm is “pointed” or just exhibited — the offense is classified as an aggravated assault.

Moral of the story: you must take the time to learn the laws of self-defense that are on the books in your state. It can be a complicated process, but every responsible gun owner needs to have a reliable source of information. Sort fact from fiction and be sure you’re informed enough to stay on the right side of the law.

 

Emily Taylor is a program attorney with US LawShield. 

 

 

 

comments

  1. avatar jwm says:

    If I pull my gun I’m going to use it. Do not force me to pull my gun. Real simple.

    1. avatar maynard says:

      Ignorant punk

      1. avatar jwm says:

        Did I offend the antifa rep?

      2. avatar George floyd the crackhead says:

        Yeah GAYNARD? Well your mother is a CUN+
        RHYMES WITH HUNT, MOUTH BREATHER…

      3. avatar Gene says:

        Get back on the short bus, and spot being an ass.

        1. avatar Big E says:

          He can’t change who he is- an ass.

      4. avatar ed stringer says:

        Found the wannabe terrorist

    2. avatar enuf says:

      Yeah, real simple. Right up to the moment when a prosecutor decides that it is not so simple and destroys your life with a criminal prosecution. Maybe you are found not guilty, maybe not. But your lawyer makes money and the proscutor makes political campaign material for his or her next run for office.

      All of which you just paid for, lost your home and your job for, spent several years going thru a massive legal shit storm.

      All it boils down to is ….. “Better be sure”

      1. avatar Montana Actual says:

        which is exactly what he said. If he pulls his gun he’s going to use it. Because he’s sure that his life is being threatened.

      2. avatar LarryinTX says:

        Prosecutor finds out you have extensively studied local laws on self defense in preparation for shooting some scumbag, your ass is gone.

    3. avatar IN Dave says:

      Amen, first time they should know you are armed is when they hear the shot and realize they are losing fluid from a newly formed orifice. If your life is in danger, it is time to do something quick. If it is not in danger then they don’t get the courtesy of knowing your abilities.

    4. avatar FormerParatrooper says:

      If you make me have to shoot you I will give you a first rate salty NCO ass chewing while you are on the ground.

    5. avatar tim mccoig says:

      yea , if u pull use it , its not show and tell

    6. avatar Chief Censor says:

      You can only use your gun if you or someone else is immediately threatened with grievous bodily harm or death and the force you use is reasonable to prevent/stop the attack.

      For instance, if someone has a knife and threatens to stab you, it is reasonable to believe you are facing a threat of grievous bodily harm or death. However, to use deadly force due to someone presenting a knife and using verbal threats could get you charged with willful manslaughter. If the threat becomes immediate you could then use deadly force. So if he starts charging after verbally telling you he is going to stab you it is reasonable to present and fire your gun. The force has to be equal, thus if he pulls a knife you can pull a gun, but you can’t fire the gun until there is an objective reasonable belief based on the circumstances of his/her immediate threat to you or another. Once you fire your gun, if the man drops the knife, you can no longer shoot him even if he continues to run at you.

      Another example would be if a man is carrying an object he wants to throw at you or attack you with. Let’s say that object is a screwdriver. It’s reasonable to present your gun when the man presents a threat that screwdriver, but that could escalate the situation to deadly force, which then may be your fault, thus you end up in court. If the man throws the screwdriver at you and you dodge it, he is no longer posing an deadly threat to you because he literally tossed the threat at you and has become unarmed. If you were to fire on him out of anger, as you already know he threw the screwdriver, you will likely end up in court for murder (if you don’t have a badge).

      For some reason Boomers believe they can whip out guns whenever they want and use them on disorderly people. That’s called murder, maybe even premeditated murder. If you ever shoot someone, your internet post will be used against you to prove premeditated murder.

      Generation X is less aggressive with the deadly force and assault with a deadly weapon. They are way more passive and posture a lot. They are the kind who will tell you to “call the insurance company and police” when it comes to situation of self defense. They act real tough but don’t show up when things go down. They are the men most likely to call the police to complain. They’re like the Karens.

      In “western” societies using deadly force to protect “private property” is considered murder unless the government is the one doing the killings. You don’t really own your property in the “west” like your politicians lead you to believe, thus you have no right to defend it. The concept of private property, from the Europeans perspective, is meant to give the government the ability to make claim over large portions of land they will not work and to allow them to conquer/murder peoples to take ground as a matter of “lawful” murdering via war. A hint to that is in the US Constitution.

      1. avatar Sam I Am says:

        “For some reason Boomers believe they can whip out guns whenever they want and use them on disorderly people. ”

        Source of data?

        1. avatar Chief Censor says:

          Countless social media posts and videos of Boomers thinking they can use deadly force on people protesting. They even believe it’s okay to use deadly force if protesters are in the road! A lot of these older folk have been arrested for whipping out guns and using their car as a deadly weapon on protesters. I think they may have watched too many Westerns.

        2. avatar Sam I Am says:

          “Countless social media posts and videos of Boomers thinking they can use deadly force on people protesting. ”

          Census reports ~7.4 million “boomers”. How many “boomers” make up “countless social media posts…”? Do you believe social media is a curated repository for nothing but truth? Do you think “social media” represents the majority of any population demographic?

          “A lot of these older folk have been arrested for whipping out guns and using their car as a deadly weapon on protesters.”

          Census reports ~7.4 million “boomers”. How many boomers make up “A lot…”?

          Believe nothing you hear, and none of what you see.

      2. avatar MrMax says:

        “Once you fire your gun, if the man drops the knife, you can no longer shoot him even if he continues to run at you.”

        Better start practicing those double and triple taps at the range…

      3. avatar GluteusMaximus says:

        Not the dreaded boomers. At least it’s not a karen or a chad.

  2. avatar NORDNEG says:

    Ya,,, & if you have to think about what to do for too long, you’ll be the victim,,,
    Decisions suck in real time don’t they…
    “””FREE KYLE”””

    1. avatar tim mccoig says:

      yes , dont think too long ………………free kyle………

  3. avatar MB (the real MB) says:

    If someone threatens your property or safety, leave the area as quickly and without confronting anyone else if possible. If you are being prevented from leaving by the same people threatening you, that could be considers illegal restraint or kidnapping. Remember that. If they block your path, don’t get out of the vehicle, use it and its weight to persuade them out of the way. If they attack the vehicle attempting to gain access to you, feel free to protect yourself by running them off. If you have a gun then that might the time to point it and fire. Be prepared to suffer permanent hearing loss, which is far better then permanent injury or death at the hands of others. Deal with legal repercussions later. None of this is legal advise, just basic survival skills.

    1. avatar Rad Man says:

      I love the author’s suggestion that if a group of thugs are vandalizing my work truck and stealing my tools, I just have to accept it.

      1. avatar Mark says:

        Check your local laws. *Nonlethal* force in defense of property may be lawful.

        1. avatar Hannibal says:

          True but if you leave your vehicle to use ‘non-lethal’ force someone might brain you before you get a chance to react.

      2. avatar enuf says:

        You are missing the point. The author is telling you not to take foolish risks or assume what the law is. Study and know the laes on self defense and use of force where you live.

        Be smart, don’t be a statistic.e.

        1. avatar Rad Man says:

          “Important safety tip. Thanks Egon.”

        2. avatar neiowa says:

          Yet apparently the silly little girl is in an urban cesspool/riot zone. #1 get you ass out of the urban cesspool

    2. avatar George floyd the pavement ape says:

      If someone threatens your property leave the area????? Lol…. that was funny af

      1. avatar Cooter E Lee says:

        You want to know what’s funny? Get 20 Trump pence 2020 bumper stickers and put them on random out of county cars on the street as BLM is protesting. They love eating their own.

        Hey Marxists (D),

        If you really want to display the free speech hypocrisy, as a social experiment I will put a Biden sticker on my vehicle and park prominently at any Trump rally. I will then openly antagonize the attendees and leave my vehicle unattended.

        How do you feel about parking in any large city residential street overnight with a Trump sticker on your car? Yeah, that’s what I thought.

      2. avatar MB (the real MB) says:

        You need to read, the property is the vehicle.

      3. avatar Hannibal says:

        if you are in a car… and someone is threatening your property… why wouldn’t you leave the area?

        Don’t get me wrong, I chuckle every time I see some idiot get thrown over a car hood after blocking traffic. But I would really like to avoid being the driver in question. Best case scenario, you end up having to get a lot of bodywork done. Worst case scenario… you die or get thrown in prison.

    3. avatar Red says:

      Firing a gun with a few rounds is not going to give you permanent hearing damage. It is highly unlikely you’ll have to empty the magazine.

      1. avatar MB (the real MB) says:

        @Red, well I guess you never fired a large caliber gun in a closed environment like automobile. 357 mag, 44 Mag, 7.62X25 Tokarev, 10mm, 454 Casull all will rupture your ear drums, and most likely .38Spec and 9mm or any firearm with a supersonic cartridge will too. So have at it, let us know how it all works out for ya….

        1. avatar Rad Man says:

          Holy cow, just the subsonic concussion I feel shooting 45 indoors with hearing protection is enough to make me NEVER want to shoot in a car.

      2. avatar Hannibal says:

        You will suffer permanent hearing damage from that sort of enclosed area discharge of a standard handgun (i.e. not subsonic, .22, etc). You will also suffer temporary hearing damage that will clear up. There are a lot of people walking around with tinnitus and hearing trouble because they thought that because the temporary hearing damage cleared up, there must not be permanent damage to worry about. Just because you didn’t go deaf doesn’t mean there isn’t damage.

        But if you’re shooting at people from your car, I have to assume you fear for your life so the hearing loss is not the issue to worry about. Although if you just run the idiot over, you can get away AND not have hearing loss.

    4. avatar Craig in IA says:

      “Remember that. If they block your path, don’t get out of the vehicle, use it and its weight to persuade them out of the way.”

      THIS is becoming more and more difficult with all the “smart tech” being built into vehicles. My little bro’s Subaru will stop itself from running into objects, even if intentionally done. A number of SUVs and pick ups I’ve driven lately are similar. (Wonder if a victim/family could sue the manufacturer if he/she/it were unable to move through a mob and injured or killed as a result?) Keeping my old Buick Park Avenue just because it does have some weight and goes where I want it to, when I want it to…

      1. avatar MB (the real MB) says:

        @Craig in IA : You can turn off all those nanny safety programs. Well except if you own a Tesla. Yea collision avoidance systems, make people forget how to drive… Up to 5 years ago I was still driving a 1970 Camaro Z28, Not real impressed with the new ones. Not fond of all the safety stuff, the blind spot warning stuff is useful, but the rest of the safety stuff is annoying.

  4. avatar Imayeti says:

    Unless the law has changed, Texas as always has it’s own way of dealing with it. If it’s dark outside you can’t adequately judge your safety so shoot em. An El Paso judge and his wife were enjoying the night life and upon returning to the car, yep, burglary in progress for the late thief.

    1. avatar Ragnarredbeard says:

      Examples abound of the greatness of Texas law regarding property rights.

      1) guy in 2nd floor apartment sees guy breaking into his car at night. Shoots him with a deer rifle from the balcony. No charges.

      2) rancher catches guy stealing his cattle. strings him up from a tree. County Sheriff says its a good catch.

      1. avatar IN Dave says:

        I personally know a guy that sees three guys breaking into his truck and removing items in the middle of night, in Texas. Desert eagle to the chest of one of the suspects drops him quick. Other two guys run off and call the police saying their friend was just murdered. Sheriff shows up gets the stories and sees the evidence. Arrests the other two guys for accessory to robbery and the “shooter“ goes back to bed like he just got home from a late night movie.

        1. avatar Geoff "Ammo. LOTS of ammo..." PR says:

          Aren’t the other 2 charged with his murder?

      2. avatar anyway says:

        Aren’t stealing horses and/or cattle still punishable by hanging in Texas? I think that may still be on the books in Ohio.

      3. avatar Todd in the sticks says:

        I’m not sure how many times the first one happened, but I was stationed in San Antonio in the late 90s when that was reported exactly as you described. The state where I am from does not allow the use of deadly force to prevent property crimes. I learned shortly thereafter that laws vary from state to state!

      4. avatar LarryinTX says:

        There was one in TX similar to Red’s #1, where a guy shot a man attempting to steal his car. Turned out, the guy was hired to repossess the car for nonpayment. Tough shit, turns out the wrecker driver regularly “repossessed” cars in the middle of the night without notifying the owner, because he found it “easier”, leaving the owner believing his car had been stolen. No prosecution, man thought he was shooting a thief. Oh, and in TX if someone is stealing something worth over $500 from you, kill the mofo, all legal.

  5. avatar I Haz A Question says:

    This is rather simple (and I’m speaking for myself, and as a Californian who lives under my state’s laws).

    If someone is actively, attempting, or threatening to damage my vehicle, I will stand between then and my property. As it is registered with the State (by compulsory order of the State) to my name, it is easily provable as my property. Mere damage can be covered by auto insurance, though take note that some policies may include an exclusion exempting coverage from damage resulting from riots.

    If the person then turns his attention toward me and postures or otherwise communicates his aggression toward me in a manner that causes me to believe I am now in danger of injury, I will defend myself accordingly. My vehicle is no longer the focus.

    If the person makes physical contact (assault) with my body, I will deliver a solid punch into my choice of location on his body that will stop the attack. If necessary, I will deliver multiple strikes.

    If the person continues his attack on me, I may at that point conclude that he wishes to kill me, and I will do whatever is necessary to stop him.

    If – and only if – he presents a weapon during his aggression toward me, I will interpret it as a deadly weapon and will defend myself accordingly. This may include the use of my hands on vital locations of his body, or my own deadly weapon (gun, knife, etc.).

    If there are multiple attackers, the “force multiplier” rule kicks everything up a notch. They can have my vehicle, but if they turn their attention toward me and I cannot escape, I will direct everything I have at the nearest threat and put him to the ground unconscious. My #1 priority is not my vehicle, but to ensure that I return home to my wife and family safe and sound.

    ****

    Now, if I’m actually inside my vehicle when the attacks occur, I will gun the gas and get out of there, running over attackers if necessary. If at any time I believe I cannot do this (e.g., they’re beginning to rock the vehicle), then…and only then…does the gun come out and I begin shooting the assailants in the ocular cavity. Seeing two of their Comrades going down should be sufficient to convince the rest of them to back away.

    Though if any of them are armed, God help me and those inside my vehicle with me, because I’ll be emptying the mag and reloading until my options are spent.

    First rule of avoiding such a dilemma is to not be driving toward a protest in the first place.

    1. avatar Specialist38 says:

      Evidently the protest can come to you.

      Terrorist also seem to be intermingling with protestors.

      And what look like protestors may actually be terrorists.

      Since I dont know their intent, I will assume the worst if they turn their attention to me in a threatening manner.

    2. avatar All Hail! says:

      Why say in just a few words what you can say in a seemingly unending, rambling screed? These are the incomparable words of the inevitable ‘I Haz A Question’. As it was, is and ever shall be.

      All Hail.

      1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

        Hail, you’re no longer a source of amusement or even annoyance. You’re not really doing anything to inspire or incite. In fact, you’re not really doing anything of value. Kind of a waste of your talents, no?

        What this room can benefit from is a new V_lad T_epes (some names trigger the TTAG filters) or Miner_49, or the like. Jump into the fray and say something agitating, or at least thought provoking. Get the others in the room energized to comment. Poke the bear, Hail.

        Be a better Hail.

        1. avatar Not Larry from Texas says:

          Was vald banned?

        2. avatar Not Larry from Texas says:

          vlad*

        3. avatar KenW says:

          I think he ran his course as a troll and was no longer fun for whoever was doing the trolling.

    3. avatar Huntmaster says:

      Sounds like you have it all figured out. Just remember. The best battle plans never survive first contact with the enemy.

      1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

        As you can tell, it’s all in my head, and life has its way of knocking the best-laid plans out of kilter. The best battle plan is to simply avoid the unnecessary battles altogether. I have no eagerness to drive toward a known protest.

    4. avatar tim mccoig says:

      here in maryland , we shoot them in the groin, and then they bend over and we keep slaming the car door on there head till u see clear fld coming out both ears , this is the new fun thing here in balimore , hun , ps. we 49 people shot in balimore this week

    5. avatar LarryinTX says:

      Just a note for any bullies or criminals who may be reading this as research for future endeavors. None of Haz’ descriptions of his actions applies to old folks. My days of going mano e’ mano with any manner of punks are long behind me, I fall into the category of don’t fuck with old folks, if they are too tired to fight today, they will just kill you. First time Haz describes punching someone, I’d be considering whether I can shoot him again before he hits the ground.

      1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

        Well, here in Los Angeles County, our Sheriff is vocally against private individuals bearing arms, as well as our Mayor Garcetti and our state Governor Newsom. The cards are stacked against us, so any use of deadly force must be proven as the absolute last resort, or only option. Hence the good punch in the face/throat/solar plexus first. If I just come out gunz-a-blazing, the D.A. will crucify me no matter how dire the threat was to my life.

  6. avatar Specialist38 says:

    The article didnt really address the main likelihood.

    If terrorists start attacking my car (they just promoted from protestors), how does the law view me running over their shitty asses?

    The shooting wont start until I cant drive anymore.

    1. avatar Bruce says:

      Driving over their sorry asses is probably little different legally from shooting them. Both are probably the use of deadly force. The difference though is that you can more easily legally try to drive off slowly, than you can threaten them with your firearm (depending on your state, of course).

    2. avatar UpInArms says:

      If you are able to drive your car, that means you are inside of it. That’s a whole different set of rules.

    3. avatar LarryinTX says:

      “Officer, he jumped out right in front of me when I was driving at precisely the speed limit. I couldn’t stop in time!”

  7. avatar gus says:

    look at your state/local laws. probably:

    1. you have the right to “forcibly” stop property damage, theft and looting. i.e. push or pull him away, punch or kick, pepper spray, etc.

    2. if he attempts to resist (which is probably going to happen), you have the right to defend yourself. push, punch, kick, pepper spray, etc.

    3. if he attempts to resist with deadly force or grievous bodily harm, you have the right to defend yourself with deadly force.

    why is it that everyone thinks they don’t have a right to stop property damage? and go straight to “I can’t shoot the bastard so I can’t do anything”?

    1. avatar Tired of the bs says:

      Sometimes a good old fashioned ass kicking is in order, and if it’s worth doing it’s worth doing it right. Make sure they remember it.

      1. avatar Rad Man says:

        I concur. Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

        1. avatar Geoff "Ammo. LOTS of ammo..." PR says:

          Moderation in all things, except moderation? 🙂

        2. If it’s good, more is better, and too much is just right. It’s the American way.

        3. avatar Sam I Am says:

          “If it’s good, more is better, and too much is just right not enough. It’s the American way.”

          FIFY

        4. Thank you Sam I Am. I like your improvement. (-;

        5. avatar Sam I Am says:

          Happy to be here, grateful for the opportunity, proud to serve.

    2. avatar Rad Man says:

      I don’t know if I’m comfortable with pushing. Can I start with meaningful dialogue and persuasive language?

      1. avatar gus says:

        sure can. if that doesn’t work you can try tickling him on the nose with a feather.

    3. avatar LarryinTX says:

      Gus, if I try to push or kick someone I will fall down. Therefore I will shoot him instead, possibly several times, and survive to tell the story. If that does not seem fair, I recommend you don’t fuck with me.

  8. avatar Sam I Am says:

    It is easy to get lost in the details of situations, and miss entirely the point of such discussions….it doesn’t matter what we think, only what is permitted/prohibited by laws in a particular jurisdiction.

  9. avatar Bruce says:

    “Many states — but not all — extend the added protections of the castle doctrine to occupied vehicles. But you need to make sure you know the law in your state. “

    Keep in mind though what the Castle Doctrine (CD) is – it mostly just abrogates the Retreat Doctrine (RD) when in your house, sometimes in your car, etc. If your state still has the Retreat Doctrine, and the Castle Doctrine is not applicable, then you must retreat, IF YOU SAFELY CAN, before you use deadly force in self defense.

    That means in RD states w/o CD applying to your vehicle, if you can safely leave, do it. If the protesters/rioters prevent that, probably just sit there until they try to break into the vehicle. With no retreat possible, and an imminent threat of death or great bodily injury, self defense using deadly force is probably now legally justified. Driving over a couple of them might be justified, as well as utilizing a firearm. As a note – in RD states, it may be legally advisable to have tried to drive away, and have the rioters prevent it, because it may prevent prosecutors from arguing that you could safely have retreated by driving off.

    1. avatar LarryinTX says:

      You mean, like, having your car high centered on half a dozen attackers, so that it cannot move again without a wrecker, before you begin firing? Sounds good to me.

  10. avatar 007 says:

    Just like Bugs Bunny said “I know it is against the law of gravity, but i never studied the law”

  11. avatar Bushwik says:

    Let’s not use the words protestor and rioter interchangeably. It’s just not reality…

    1. avatar neiowa says:

      WASN”T reality. You been paying attention to the BLM/etc maggots of recent weeks? There are rioter and accessories to riot.

  12. avatar former water walker says:

    If you attack my vehicle and I and my loved ones are occupying it all bets are off. You’d also be killing our business. Despite Enuf “warning” us. Which version is this? Troll or just an idiot?!? Will I catch a break ’cause my wife & son’s AIN’T white???

  13. avatar Benny Boy says:

    Illinois provides Stand Your Ground, by common law, in all places, including outside of the home. Check the pattern jury instructions if you doubt me, its the easiest place to look.

    Thats one of the things that was driving the gun grabbers nuts once we got concealed carry here, is it would take an actual statute to repeal the common law, which the gun grabbers did not have the votes for.

    If your attacked in Illinois, you have no duty to retreat, if your in a place you can legally be in.

  14. avatar Green Mtn. Boy says:

    Call the insurance company.

  15. avatar Montana Actual says:

    Whole lot of keyboard lawyers coming out of the woodworks on this article.

  16. avatar Ragnarredbeard says:

    Lets keep this simple.

    1) if they are vandalizing your car as you come out of the store, keep walking. Call the police. Its just a car.

    2) if you’re in the car and they start beating on it with clubs or whatever and break a window, game on. Your life is threatened.

  17. avatar MrMax says:

    U.S. LawShield has some helpful articles on its website as to what you legally can and cannot do when defending your property. It appears most states allow the use of non-lethal force to protect your property from damage. You really need to know your state’s laws when it comes to determining if drawing (not aiming) your gun constitutes non-lethal force. California considers just drawing a gun an act of lethal force (gee – surprise there). Texas does not.

    If you catch someone busting into your car when parked, caution being the better part of valor would dictate you’d better have high illumination on the burglar and be super ready to draw and fire if they pull a deadly weapon on you. Better would be to have cover close by as you approach.

    A less risky approach would be to call 911 and hang back to wait for the police – maybe try to get some pictures of the perpetrator if you’re in a safe position to do so. If you’re at home and the car is in your driveway, might be smarter to pull back and defend the home and hope the police get there while the act is in progress. Paying my $200 deductable (that’s my comprehensive insurance) might be alot wiser option than putting my life on the line for a car or truck.

    Opinions?

    1. avatar neiowa says:

      Kneecapping the SOB wouldn’t be lethal (and I have a tourniquet right here so the SOB is good to go). or does the kneecap have to be with a small caliber (as .22LR)? Either way the SOB will remember it.

      1. avatar MrMax says:

        I get your point, but discharging any firearm of any size is considered lethal force (lots of folks have gotten killed with 22LR). In the case of property defense, if you don’t know your state laws and they prohibit lethal force, then you become the aggressor and you’ll find yourself in jail with a felony charge. The now “victim” can also sue you in civil court where, even if you win, your attorney fees will drain your bank account. As you peer from behind bars, wouldn’t you think that just paying the insurance deductable would’ve been a better plan?

        1. avatar LarryinTX says:

          Spot on. Shoot to kill the mofo, then make up a good story. Then call 911, after making sure he has bled out.

  18. avatar -Dan says:

    This article goes on and on for several paragraphs to just say “it depends” and “there is no good answer”. The short answer is not to let them back you into a corner. We’ve seen footage where they burn down an automobile dealership TWICE and the one who fought back is the one arrested.

    1. avatar hawkeye says:

      Yep. I acknowledge that it isn’t always possible, but it’s better to stay out of Dodge than to try to get out of Dodge. Be prepared, but don’t be around.

  19. avatar Elmer Fudd says:

    Maybe not the law in Oregon, but the reality. Marijuana bootlegger shoots two rounds from a 12 gauge shotgun at his landlord’s children in retaliation for efforts to evict. Shotgun probably loaded with slugs. Potentially lethal range of about one mile. Misses by about ten feet from a range of about 150 yards. Gun ignorant prosecutor (female, apparently related to the actress Joy Harmon who did the car wash scene in COOL HAND LUKE) doesn’t understand the potential range and lethality of shotguns. Charges tenant with menacing and reckless endangerment rather than agrevated assault. Case heard by Yamhill County Judge Ladd Wiles, aka “former US Attorney Amanda S Marshall’s cuckold.” Marijuana bootlegger not evicted or convicted. Landlord’s looses hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal costs and lost opportunity costs. Marijuana bootlegger continues to live in house, rent free.

    Moral of the story?
    Shoot, shovel and shit up.

    1. avatar Cooter E Lee says:

      Thieves and rioters better stay in the cities where they’re safe. Us backwards hillbillies might know there’s some Fellers with fancy laws, but we see them more as suggestions.

      Come on down to steal my tractors or trucks, I’d love to make your acquaintance.

    2. avatar Fury says:

      That sucks. Several years ago there was a pot grower in the area who along with his buddies were flaming a-holes. Trespassing on people’s property, stealing tools and other items from neighbors, etc.

      A friend told me they found the location where this loser was growing (on someone else’s land), got permission from the landowner and went in one night and sprayed it all with Roundup. Left a typed note for Mr. Greenthumb that his crop was ruined and to leave the area or they were calling the cops and providing the details of the grow location, etc.

      Greenthumb moved on the next week – after trashing the house he was staying.

  20. avatar possum says:

    I don’t have a car, I have a bicycle. I ask one of our city police,” If somebody is stealing my bike can I shoot them?” He said he wouldn’t. Then I ask him if I could drive his car, he said No.

    1. avatar jwm says:

      I wouldn’t think a possum could get a license to drive a car. As for a bike…… some custom made circus bike? Do you do tricks like jumping through a flaming hoop on it?

      1. avatar tim mccoig says:

        possum sex on a bike ? with flames , and turning tricks ……and u think i do hard drugs ?

        1. avatar No Poet and I know it says:

          Late at night when I was tucked in my bed.
          While I’m trying to lie sleeping, I hear thumping overhead.
          There’s noise in my back yard, why is it happening at night ?
          Cause it wakes me from my slumber and cuts short my respite.
          I should be fast asleep but now I am wide awake;
          My eyes are staring at the roof and then I start to shake.
          I hear a sound that startles me, it’s a loud thump then a bang,
          I know who’s making all the noise, the local possum gang!
          They’re swinging on vines from the oak tree next door
          They skip and dance across the roof and then return for more.
          They tap dance on the porch roof, stomp across the tin;
          Those furry possum hoodlums are causing quite a din.
          They ride a bike through a flaming hoop and walk on their paws as they as they juggle and clown;
          They balance on the tightrope and they never quieten down!
          I shout out be quiet you beast I’m as tired as a man can be—
          But those creatures just don’t care about what’s happening to me!
          I can hear them hiss, I hear them screech and then I hear them squeal;
          They’re doing druggy sex I suppose for them that is a thrill.
          Then suddenly it’s quiet and my eyes begin to close;
          The dawn is peeping through the blinds as I begin to doze.
          The possums quickly leave as they must be off to bed;
          They jump upon the neighbor’s fence then clomp across their shed.
          They’ll be back again of course tonight as that is just their way.
          To possums running wild all night is what they do for play.

          And with this poem done I too will head on off to bed
          No Poet will hope this remains unread.
          No spell check was done, it rhymes he hopes, perhaps it should have remained unpublished.
          But alas to late, the button was pressed and so I posted this rubbish.

        2. avatar jwm says:

          Poet. Slow Clap. Bravo, good sir.

      2. avatar neiowa says:

        He never claimed to have a stinkin license.

        1. avatar jwm says:

          It is impossible to drive without a license. It is against the law.

        2. avatar LarryinTX says:

          Really? I was not aware there were any laws regarding possums.

  21. avatar Unrepentant Libertarian says:

    Perhaps what is needed is two plans:
    Plan A – a non lethal way of dealing with folks who are not lethally threatening you. Bear spray or a squirt gun filled with ammonia.
    Plan B – a firearm loaded with the most lethal bullets one can buy for when things go into deadly mode.
    One should have each ready to confront the situation appropriately.

    1. avatar MrMax says:

      +1 This is probably the simplest and most common sense answer I’ve read yet. Thanks Unrepentant Libertarian.

  22. avatar J. Smith says:

    All that bs is why I carry my gun in a paper bag or a small carry bag in certain situations. Learned that from an old NYC detective.

    W/o castle doctrine or no retreat laws, Wrong, if I give you verbal commands and you move against them it shows intent.

    Dont care either way if you break my window and enter my car physically youre gonna get a definitive reaction.

  23. avatar Hannibal says:

    I know I harp on this, but…

    If you’re in your car, and you are in danger, you are almost certainly better trying to escape in your car rather than engaging in a gunfight from the confines of the vehicle. If people are in your way… your car will take care of that.

    The big exception is if you’ve been boxed in- either by vehicles (in traffic) or by people who you are unwilling to risk injuring. It’s often possible to avoid those situations if you’re careful.

    “The starting point is this: in most states, the law favors lives over things. If you catch someone breaking into an unoccupied vehicle, you may have a tough time justifying the use of deadly force to protect the property. ”

    I agree that this is the law. However, at some point, I have to wonder why society should care about lives over property if the people attacking property apparently value its destruction over their own lives. I have a similar problem with Tennessee v. Garner (though I would, of course, follow the law of the land). Why should society care so much about the due process of a criminal’s life if he doesn’t care about it?

  24. avatar GS650G says:

    So you’ve got to take a punch, hit with a bottle or stick or even get shot at or stabbed before you can shoot the Bastard. Fair enough.

    But what charges do they face if any for their actions? Zero. Not fair enough.

    So when the law walks away and calls it quits and these rukes are not applicable we’ll see how it plays out. These rioters better hope cops stick around.

  25. avatar sound awake says:

    if theres ever a kenosha in my neighborhood
    and the police and fire department arent coming
    and joe biden voters are on my property about to molotov my car in my driveway
    which is right next to my house
    which will quickly catch my house
    and my neighbors house on fire
    and burn them to the ground
    as the situation requires in a rather quick and escalating fashion im going to:
    brandish and verbal command
    point and verbal command
    warning shot into the ground in the closest safest direction to me
    (7.62×39 10.5 ar pistol-beach ball sized muzzle flash)
    then center mass
    and then center mass anyone thats on my property in a position to interfere while im trying to put the flames out

    1. avatar gus says:

      if the police aren’t coming, you should be able to ask the judge “hey where were the cops?” and case dismissed.

  26. avatar Cuteandfuzzybunnies says:

    Most states allow you to use force to protect property. Just not deadly force.

    However that doesn’t mean that the criminal can just use force back.

    For example if a person is trying to take your purse it’s simple theft. You grab the purse and fight physically with non lethal force. You are justified. Say the thief has two friends and they come over and start to kick the shit out of you 3 on 1. That’s deadly force and you are justified.

    Also you can protect yourself from many felonies with deadly force. For example car jacking. It is very reasonable to think somebody who forces themself in your car is carjacking you, they probably are.

    I some states robbery , even without a weapon , justifies lethal force. So if a guy grabs for your purse and says “ gimme the money bitch” while raising his arm to threaten assault , that’s robbery.

  27. avatar Coolbreeze says:

    If a thug chooses to enter my life by fucking with me he shouldn’t get to set the rules of engagement. It’s not a game or sport with me. Not MMA or whatever. I ain’t bulked up and I dont train like a pro fighter. I live my life in peaceful pursuits. Dont come at me and expect a fair fight that proceeds in some societally prescribed manner. I want the thug out of my life right now and so will use the quickest means necessary to get that done. Btw, my property represents that part of my life that I used up obaining said property. If you attack my property, you attack my life.

  28. avatar George Carlin's Ghost says:

    >”Life Is More Important Than Property”

    No, it’s not. Not all of it. I’d say there are a solid 20-30% of people where that holds true. The rest are soulless meatbags devoid of any redeeming qualities and are burden on the planet.

    Also, what if I spent my entire life’s earnings (time alive) working towards buying my property? Can you give me back all that time of my life spent working towards that property that was stolen/destroyed? It’s a quaint sentiment, but flawed.

    Human life is too cheap anymore; you gotta prove your worth or you’re just another in-the-way MF’er.

    1. avatar GS650G says:

      Those who say property should not be protected assume or hope the perp just wants your stuff. If he decides not to leave a witness or help himself to a woman’s virtue then what? By then it’s probably too late to turn to deadly force. So that’s the quandary we find ourselves in as police are defunded, resign and criminals take over.

    2. avatar LarryinTX says:

      Pretty easy, really. My life is more important than my property. Your life is not more important than my property.

  29. avatar LKB says:

    Key takeaway from this post is “it depends on where you are.” As Andrew Branca exhaustively details in his superb book “The Law of Self Defense,” the differences between the laws in various states is stark and often seemingly irrational.

    For instance, Texas is one of the few states that are fairly generous when it comes to using deadly force to protect property. Texas Penal Code 9.42 allows the use of deadly force “to prevent . . . the commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime,” as well as to prevent one who is committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft ay nighttime from fleeing with the property. However, you would also have to demonstrate that there was no other way to protect or recover the property, *or* that use of force other than deadly force to do so would have exposed you to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

    Thus, you have Texas cases such as the famous one of the physician who used his deer rifle from an upstairs window of his house to blow away the “youth” who was trying to steal the radio out of his vehicle (parked in his driveway) . . . after sunset. Under Texas law, it was a good shoot (use of deadly force allowed to prevent theft during the nighttime). Had it occurred when the sun was up, however, it might have been manslaughter or murder. Under the hypothetical presented in the post, if the trashing of your car was after sundown (i.e., criminal mischief during the nighttime), and was committed by a group of people with sticks, clubs, etc. (i.e., use of less than deadly force to stop it would expose you to serious risk of getting seriously injured or killed), then TECHNICALLY Texas law allows for use of deadly force.

    Obviously, just because it might be legal to do so does not mean it is a good idea to do so — your insurance deductible will be a fraction of the cost of your attorneys fees you’ll incur if you pull the trigger.

    In contrast, in places like California or New Jersey, it’s probably a crime to even think about using deadly force to protect property.

    But the other critical factor isn’t the law, it’s what the local politics are. Missouri self-defense law is very good, but as the McCloskys have found out that doesn’t stop a Soros-funded DA from ignoring the law and making your life hell. Florida Law is also pretty good, but as George Z found out, that’s little comfort when there are political points to be scored.

    In Travis County, Texas (Austin and surrounding area), in January we’ll get one of these tools as our new DA (for instance, she ran for the Dem nomination on the explicit platform of not prosecuting Antifa/BLM folks). Does anyone seriously think she will follow Texas law when making charging decisions in a 9.42 case . . . especially if the deceased is a member of a preferred demographic or group that supported her election? OTOH, head a few miles west of Austin into, say, Blanco, Kendall, or Gillespie County, in the same sort of 9.42 case the local DA would probably have you “no billed” by the grand jury in short order. And may well buy you a beer.

    Bottom line: when it comes to using deadly force to protect property, even when the law is on your side (and in most states it isn’t) that still may not be enough, especially in these days of PC uber alles. It truly depends on where you are. It should not, and it sucks, but it is what it is.

    1. avatar GS650G says:

      And laws change frequently. You’re obligated to know they tightened up the rules for self defense because you don’t have qualified immunity to defend yourself or property.

  30. avatar Max Damage says:

    WHY DO YOU NEED TO BRANDISH A GUN WHEN YOU HAVE 3000-6000 LBS OF STEEL?! PUNCH IT!

    1. avatar Chief Censor says:

      When you have a hammer…

  31. avatar StLPro2A says:

    Know your local jurisdiction laws and Police/DA’s typical practice to prosecuting gun related applications. Also, know your insurance policy regarding vandalism and rioting/acts of war payments. While it is insulting to have your property vandalized/stolen, property is replaced much more easily, inexpensively than defending a deadly force charge…..even if you win. Life isn’t always fair. As is always said, the best way to win a gun fight is to not get into a gun fight. Big talk followed by ill thought out actions can be your worst decision. We aren’t always free to end violence against us……yet.

  32. avatar adverse6 says:

    Zombies are not fictional anymore. Shooting them thru the head is not reliable anymore. 90% chance you’ll miss their brain. Then they’ll sue you. A fate worse than death. Having a few “throw down” firearms might be a good idea, and those disposable gloves that are never found. But, that would be wrong.

    1. avatar Wally1 says:

      Hey Adverse6, I would have to agree. Having a not tracible handgun that was purchased years ago with no paper trail is a good way to cover your ass. A throw down firearm changes the entire narrative. What is really sad is that it has come to this where you have to take such drastic actions just to protect yourself against real criminals. Want more mind boggling laws, failing schools, high taxes, political corruption, high crime? Well that’s easy. Just keep voting democrat.

  33. avatar Open carry a bladder full of hot Stinky ORANGE PEE says:

    I #OpenCarry a bladder full of hot p!SS just for these circumstances…..this is my rifle this is my……..

  34. We are rapidly approaching a tipping point where laws won’t matter.
    Read any news story, blm/ antifa gets a free pass, whites, conservatives, Christians are crusified, literally.
    The Soros machine has bought and paid for so many prosecutors, judges who do not follow the law, who openly disregard the constitution, what does it matter if we follow the law?
    What matters most, don’t paint a target on yourself. Ensure the safety of your family first and foremost. Gather your friends. Start gathering a mental list of potential targets. Stockpile.
    Regardless of where you live, we live in dangerous times of the like this country hasn’t seen since its inception or the civil war. And war is coming.
    To those of you denigrating boomers, just remember, we have lived through violent times. We have lived through and returned from an unpopular war to be spit upon by traitors like Jane Fonda. We have seen other traitors rise to political power and are seeing them bring this pain upon us now.
    If your going to use lethal force, keep shooting until your 100% positive they’re no longer a threat, even if you have to reload. Do not stand above them and finish them off with one to the head! Meanwhile, either you or one of your family should have called 911. While covering the perp, wait for the cops. When they arrive, identify yourself, identify you have a fire arm and you have placed it on the ground and you have your hands up. Say nothing other than your name and you want your lawyer! Again, say nothing else!

    1. avatar LarryinTX says:

      Yeah, I’ve always figured it should go like “He did this, then he did this, he was told to do that, he did this, then somebody shot him. Now. I want my lawyer.” Don’t even confess to being part of anything, let your lawyer explain to the court.

  35. avatar Joe O'Brien says:

    CIB veteran

    Shoot those idiots and ask questions later. If you don’t shoot, you are a liberal WIMP. You have to be a Pelosi lover!

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