By Lee Williams
Charles “Chuck” Palmatier will serve one year and a day in a federal prison for selling guns at the Volusia Flea Market in Deland, Florida without a Federal Firearm License.
According to a press release, the ATF first warned Palmatier that he needed to stop selling guns without an FFL.
“According to court documents, on July 28, 2021, agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) met with Palmatier and explained that if he wanted to continue to sell firearms he would have to apply for a Federal Firearms License (FFL).”
Palmatier, the ATF claims, ignored the agents’ warning. “Despite that meeting, Palmatier continued to sell firearms …” the press release states.
“It’s my understanding they approached him, told him to knock it off, and he just thumbed his nose at it and kept doing it,” said Volusia County Sheriff’s Office Detective Sgt. Bobby Woell.
Woell is assigned to the Volusia Bureau of Investigation, a task force overseen by the Sheriff’s Office and comprised of deputies and members of other law enforcement agencies, including ATF. The VBI focuses on drugs and violent crime.
“The ATF, along with the Volusia Bureau of Investigation (VBI), began investigating Palmatier and conducted multiple controlled purchases from Palmatier at the Volusia Flea Market from February 2, 2022, through June 8, 2022,” the press release states. However, Sgt. Woell was quick to point out that the press release is dead wrong. The ATF investigation of Palmatier was not a task force case. The VBI was never involved. It was all ATF.
“People buying and selling guns at a flea market is not our responsibility,” he said. “If we got a tip about this, we would turn it over to the ATF. For the most part we’re done at that point.”
The ATF sent undercover agents to the flea market, who made “multiple controlled purchases” of firearms from Palmatier.
“At least two of the firearms purchased from Palmatier were subsequently linked to usage in two separate crimes,” the press release states.
Nebulous federal law
It’s not easy to determine when someone who buys and sells firearms needs an FFL – even for the ATF. It’s debatable at best. The ATF publishes a 10-page brochure to help people determine whether they should apply for an FFL, titled: “Do I need a license to buy and sell firearms?”
“Federal law does not establish a ‘bright-line’ rule for when a federal firearms license is required,” the brochure states. “As a result, there is no specific threshold number or frequency of sales, quantity of firearms, or amount of profit or time invested that triggers the licensure requirement. Instead, determining whether you are ‘engaged in the business’ of dealing in firearms requires looking at the specific facts and circumstances of your activities.”
In general, the ATF guidance says a license is needed “if you repetitively buy and sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast, if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal collection, you do not need to be licensed.”
While Palmatier made some money through his sales, even the ATF acknowledged it wasn’t much. “Palmatier admitted that he would profit $50 to $75 per firearm that he sold,” the press release states.
ATF agents searched Palmatier’s home and vehicle June 29, and seized 17 firearms and ammunition, which are now subject to federal forfeiture. They include:
- two Smith & Wesson .38 special revolvers
- Smith & Wesson .22 caliber pistol
- Savage 12-gauge shotgun
- Winchester 30-30 rifle
- Mauser .308 caliber rifle
- two Hatfield shotguns, .410 and 12-gauge
- two Marlin .30 caliber rifles
- Winchester 12-gauge shotgun
- Mossberg .22 caliber rifle
- Sig-Sauer 9mm pistol
- Walther 7.65mm pistol
- Ruger .22 caliber pistol
- Taurus .380 caliber pistol
- Western Field pistol (caliber unknown)
- “Assorted” ammunition
None of Palmatier’s firearms are defined as “assault weapons” by either the Biden-Harris administration or Bill Clinton’s 1994 Assault Weapon Ban. Most are old, collectible, and/or sporting firearms which are no longer in production.
Palmatier was charged through a federal information filing rather than an indictment. He was accused of “not being a licensed dealer of firearms within the meaning of Chapter 44, Title 18 U.S. Code, did willfully engage in the business of manufacturing and dealing in firearms.”
On September 7, Palmatier pleaded guilty to the single count, which carries a maximum penalty of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine. He accepted a plea deal and was sentenced last week to serve 366 days in a federal prison.
Assistant United States Attorney Beatriz Gonzalez, who prosecuted Palmatier, did not return calls seeking her comments for this story.
William C. Daniels, a Public Affairs Officer for the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Middle District of Florida said in an email, “Our office does not wish to comment on this case.”
Calls to Jason Medina, Public Information Officer for ATF’s Tampa Field Division, were routed to ATF’s Washington D.C. headquarters for reasons unknown. ATF’s headquarters staff said it was against their policy to give out direct phone numbers of their staff – even PIOs – but they promised to give Medina a message to call. Medina has yet to return the call.
Takeaways
It isn’t known why Palmatier refused to stop selling guns after the ATF warned him. Maybe he needed the money. Maybe he’s just stubborn. It really doesn’t matter. But sending him to a federal prison was not the right answer.
I’m sure his refusal bruised a few ATF egos, but therein lies the problem: a bruised ego should never serve as a predicate for a full-blown federal investigation. In this case it clearly did.
After Joe Biden weaponized the ATF and sicced them on gun owners and gun dealers, the agency’s conduct has been reprehensible. Unfortunately, Palmatier’s prosecution is just the latest in a long line of unconstitutional actions including . . .
- Because of Biden’s zero-tolerance for human error policy, FFL revocations have increased by 500%.
- ATF’s unconstitutional home inspections, which they call “knock-and-talks,” have become more like home invasions and have scared the daylights out of more than a few law-abiding gun owners who were unlucky enough to answer the door.
- An ATF inspector was caught red-handed creating an illegal gun registry with her cell phone.
- A congressional whistleblower revealed that Biden’s crackdown on homemade firearms, which he calls “ghost guns,” was based on an ATF hoax.
- Four million Americans are poised to become felons overnight because the ATF is tinkering with rules and regulations regarding pistol braces and aftermarket triggers.
It’s not surprising that no one at ATF or the U.S. Attorney’s Office was willing to answer questions about this case, much less defend their actions. They can’t, really. They know there’s one question they cannot answer truthfully. It’s a simple question: Is this justice?
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This story is part of the Second Amendment Foundation’s Investigative Journalism Project and is published here with their permission.
Wow! Punishment without a crime. Way to go AFT(Biden acronym). No ASSault gats.
And how did guns bought by ATF in controlled transactions end up getting used in crimes?
That was my question. It jumped out at me, screaming. Did the undercover ATF agent commit the two crimes, or did he sell them to his felon neighbor with no NICS check, who then used them in a crime? Inquiring minds want to know.
Think you got it the wrong way ’round. Those guns were used in crimes and then ended up being bought from Palmatier.
either not the ones atf purchased, or the link was found after the purchase.
Ooooh I KNOW, I KNOW!
Batfeces illegally sold &/or gave them to criminals. and probably prohibited persons.
Again…
Morally bankrupt agency trying purposefully to pad the stats for their political masters is the most likely scenario.
ATF is a gutless group….always going after the low-hanging fruit…especially after Waco…why don’t they ply their trade in Chicago instead of going after some harmless old guy….who, admittedly… would have been better off at a gun show than a flea-market….
Fukkin people getting SHOT in Chiraq that is not int “AFTs” job description.
There is a crime. They upset the admin and “voters” that voted for this crap. Progressive social engineering. Now get out to you nearest polling place! Where we can all see what we can take from each other with votes.
Meanwhile the kids in Chicago all have Glock switches.
Bad move to ignore the ATF.
Yeah I wonder what the guy’s end game was. Intending to become the next Heller maybe? Although that would be cool as hell I doubt that case would happen…
It seems like a strange hill to die on. Unless the guy was selling dozens per month it doesn’t seem like it’d be even enough money to live on, and if he was doing that much volume you’d think the story would mention that.
What jumped out at me from reading the article is that the AFT even gave the guy a warning to begin with.
On a recent episode of Yellowstone (last week’s?), the Secret Service flew helicopters into a sparsely populated area of a Native Indian reservation to prepare for a visit from POTUS, despite the Chief of Indian Police not having been informed of the operation. The (fully geared up) SS agents promptly shot all dogs in the area, even while the Chief was yelling at them that they were shooting his people’s pets.
Pet dogs. Federal Agents. Not a good mix.
I’ve got two Huskies, I know they aren’t people, but they are family. If someone hurt them, or worse, I would do everything possible to kill them on the spot. May not be the smartest thing to say, but it’s the truth.
Goes for my two cats also, the dogs are also very protective of the cats.
uh listen I need to break this to you.
That isnt reality it is a tv show.
Also aliens and zombies on tv you know.
We were discussing an incident in this reality.
Art…life…art…life
It’s telling that even TV show writers know enough about the “reality” to reflect it in their scripts.
Other than that, though…are you telling me zombies aren’t real?
Yep. When an ATF member approaches you to express their authoritay, over a vague grey area of the law, you gotta keep on top of things. Progressives gotta progress along. Get enough retard voters to vote to disarm and imprison themselves…
He is charged with manufacturing and selling firearms. as the word and is inclusive he would have had to be doing both of those actions. As it is all I see is that he may have been selling but nothing was written regarding him manufacturing any firearms. Then again, we are talking about a corrupt system that is geared against We the People by a bunch of power grabbing non-elected bureaucrats.
It’s possible someone asked him (an ATF undercover) for a Poly80, and he put one together for him and sold it to him.
They likely set him up for that charge.
Although that shouldn’t be illegal, it currently is illegal… 🙁
Biden’s First Day in Office Executive Orders gave agencies sweeping powers to write new rules and regulations to suit implementation of the many liberal agendas that violate the Constitution or the will of the majority. Congressional approval is no longer needed for these new “Laws”.
Nearly every industry in the Nation has been negatively affected by Biden’s lawlessness.
“Biden’s First Day in Office Executive Orders gave agencies sweeping powers to write new rules and regulations to suit implementation of the many liberal agendas that violate the Constitution or the will of the majority.”
Correct, and that’s why the current SCotUS bench is likely eager to grant cert. to a case challenging that crap.
It may not happen soon, but it will happen, provided the right case is dropped into their in-basket…
Biteme doesn’t have the authority to do that. I know he doesn’t understand that, because he thinks that he’s our ruler. I’d be more than happy to tell the POS that, right to his old decrepit face! The USSC has already tossed many of the retarded things he’s used his Executive Crayons to make, but none of them hold any weight! His whole admin is a total fraud from day one!
While I’m no fan of the feddies, what did this guy expect? BATFE specifically told him they though his activities were commercial and thus he needed an FFL, and that continued sales would be a federal crime. He ignored the warning and continued his activities, despite it being obvious that they were watching him. Not a smart move.
If he disagreed with the BATFE’s interpretation (and I can see all kinds of good reasons for why he might), he should have contacted FPC, GOA, NCRKBA, SAF, etc., and get one of them to file a test case for a declaratory judgment that he didn’t need an FFL (occasional sales, liquidation of his existing collection, etc.). Heck, for less than he probably had to spend defending himself from these charges, he probably could have retained counsel and done it himself.
But just ignoring a warning from the BATFE that further sales at the flea market would be a criminal offense? Quite foolish.
“Quite foolish.”
Sadly agree.
It smells like they got him on the manufacturing charge by asking him to make and sell something like a Poly80. Even though that shouldn’t be illegal as he did it, I really doubt the SCotUS of today will be willing to entertain a challenge to commercial manufacturing. That will upset far too many apple carts in the current political environment… 🙁
I agree. Quite foolish. Do what they tell you and take it up in court. You’re playing a losing hand when you don’t comply. Also, I’m not familiar with what the state laws are as to selling firearms in Florida. Here in Virginia, we have universal background checks which means you cannot sell a firearm to anyone without going through an FFL. Also, being an FFL myself, I can’t even sell a firearm at a flea market. I can’t bring the firearm to your place and sell it to you. There are only 2 places an FFL can sell/transfer a firearm, their place of business and a certified gun show or auction.
Good lawyer, he gets off with a warning and a fine.
It seems the law defining the threshold between occasional sales of personal collection and a for profit business is very lacking and the fact he was selling them at a FLEA MARKET says his profits would not help the ATF case.
I say it was over reach and should be thrown out on lack of evidence for what he will be charged with.
How about selling guns at a loss (poke stick in the eye of the JBTs)?
It is pretty hard to sell at a loss these days, unless you are giving them away. This has ruined gun collectors all over the country, some worse than others because of state laws.
I really like pre WWII handguns. You used to be able to find them cheap when someone died(maybe with the original box and period ammo), but not so much any more. I can’t even advertise that I buy guns without putting a target on my back.
Pleading guilty doesn’t result in a fine and a warning; despite which lawyer you have.
“Good lawyer, he gets off with a warning and a fine.”
He signed the papers agreeing to go to prison for a year. That horse is long gone from the barn…
I’m feeling so much safer knowing that Victor Bout has been traded for Brittany Griner and they locked up an old man in fl. We just don’t have enough racist, lesbian, US hating, WNBA players.
lesbian “chick” basketball players is redundant.
It’s har to tell these days.
IF she WERE a lesbian, it would NOT concern me in the least, but she is not – she is a dyke(there is a BIG difference: lesbians merely prefer other women; a dyke prefers to not be celibate, but due to their rabid hatred of men, women are their only option…….or Fido), she is racist, and she STILL hates the U.S.(probably even MORE than before, KNOWING that NOW, she OWES the U.S. for rescuing her WORTHLESS ASS, at the expense of probably THOUSANDS of Ukraine lives, if not ultimately U.S. and U.K. lives, courtesy of her fellow convict, the merchant of death. EVERY person killed with weapons supplied by the merchant of death – THEIR BLOOD is on HER FILTHY hands, as much as if SHE pulled the trigger.
I have no love for Griner, but put the blame where it belongs. Squarely on the Biden administration for making this absurd deal. The democrats are great at making stupid deals. Remember Obama trading deserter Bowe Bergdahl for 5 terrorists?
There isn’t any real crime here. Sure, the ATF says this-that-other-under-title-this-that-other but its at best ambiguous and doesn’t define in a manner that separates it from the ATF just wanting to do it and it being a real crime. And whats with this warning thing? If it were such a ‘real crime’ then why did the ATF ‘warn’ him despite knowing he was doing it and had the proof?
He didn’t manufacture any firearms, he was simply selling off his personal collection the same way others at the flea market were selling off their personal stuff. If he had done it not at the flea market, in private transactions, the ATF would not have said a word. What he did was essentially private transactions by selling his personally owned property. It wasn’t a business, he wasn’t keeping fire arms in stock like a firearms dealer/store. The guy was simply selling off his personal collection in the best way he had. If he was running a business for profit then every one at the flea market should have had a business license but I’ll bet not everyone there had a business license.
He was accused of “not being a licensed dealer of firearms within the meaning of Chapter 44, Title 18 U.S. Code, did willfully engage in the business of manufacturing and dealing in firearms.” – well, the meaning of that is as a ‘business’ type of thing and he wasn’t being a business type of thing, he was selling off his personally owned property.
This is an overzealous wrongful prosecution. If were such a crime then why did the prosecutor plea it for a single count when clearly, according to the ATF, there were multiple counts of which he was guilty? Something tells me this is a sort of test case, something to set a precedent of sorts to infringe on private sales. This needs to be appealed and beat.
Heck, we have ATF agents here locally that sell their personally owned firearms at the local flea market all the time and they don’t have an FFL. I’ve even bought some guns from them.
Its lawful private sales of existing personal property in a finite amount plain and simple.
If there’s not more to this that’s not being reported; He had a crap lawyer if he had one. I would not have pleaded guilty to anything here. I would have dragged this into court.
ATF agents here locally that sell their personally owned firearms at the local flea market all the time and they don’t have an FFL. I’ve even bought some guns from them.
An ATF agent is the LAST person on this planet I would buy a gun from. Only reason they went after this old man was because somebody got butthurt that they had not instilled the FEAR of the all-powerful federal government in him…
Well of course we check them out first before we buy them. Our local cop shop will run id’s and serial numbers for us. Its not like its an under the table wink-wink deal or some sort of sting or entrapment deal, and personal sales are legal here without any checks as long as the buyer or seller is not a prohibited person but we check these anyway before buying. They can’t entrap you into buying one if its a legal gun and their personal property and they are offering it for sale and you are not a prohibited person. Gotten some nice guns from those buys.
Not my point (note to self: so and so makes numerous PRIVATE gun purchases) but…. Okay?
“Our local cop shop will run id’s and serial numbers for us“
Really?
How nice they’re willing to violate the hall for your convenience, and just why do you deserve the privilege of this free service unavailable to other citizens?
It seems some animals are more equal than others…
FL has a website run by FDLE that ANYONE can access free to check numbers against known stolen firearms, just enter the serial number and get results nearly instantly…
“FL has a website run by FDLE that ANYONE can access“
Maybe…
“However, even this website warns:
“FDLE cannot represent that this information is current, active, or complete. You should verify that a stolen property report is active with your local law enforcement agency or with the reporting agency.”
“Police Checks of Firearms (Stolen Gun Database)
Having the local police check the federal database continues to be the most accurate way to look up gun history by serial number to ascertain whether or not a used firearm is lost or stolen. However, many police departments do not offer this service. And be forewarned: if the gun does come back as lost or stolen, the person who brought it to the police will not be getting it back“
And you can be assured, if the gun does come back stolen the local police will have many questions for you, especially if there was a violent assault or murder committed with the theft of the firearm in question.
https://www.uslawshield.com/gun-serial-number-check/
Well if an officer gives you a break like one did for me during my bar hopping days when I was driving while a little tipsy (drunk) then one should return the favor by not repeating being stupid again.
And stupid is selling firearms to strangers and getting a break and proceeding to be stupid again. Nonetheless and by all accounts a 74 year old man scraping by out of a flea-market and not on a street corner should not serve a year and a day of what life he has left when others nowadays with far, far more serious offenses receive a slap on the wrist.
well, yeah if they warn you then maybe you should take heed and not do it. But what are they warning you for? Are they warning against doing what is essentially a lawful thing by, in this case, selling your own personal finite amount property in what is essentially personal sales transactions and not as a business in the context of the law to then come back and arrest you for a crime they were ok with despite having evidence you had committed a crime as long as they could warn you not to do it?
This wasn’t warning against a possible intoxicated driving thing where the evidence is gathered after the offense is warned against in another instance. The ATF already had the evidence of what they say is a crime and but they only warned him then but came back later and got more evidence then arrested him? If it was a crime when they first encountered him and they had the evidence why did they not arrest him then? It was ok them to forget about it being a crime as long as they could warn him so was it a crime to begin with? If it wasn’t a possible crime then why bother to warn him?
That’s like the cop giving you the warning when you were intoxicated and driving, he knew you were intoxicated or had reason to think (unless just stopping you because you are maybe female), but then later comes to your house to arrest you for DUI and doing a breathalyzer then because they warned you before. Is that right?
I think the ATF manufactured this. I think they did have a real crime here but turned it into one by dodging around an ambiguous statute to try to find a way to attack lawful personal sales. Thus the warning, so they would have justification to come back (e.g. “he didn’t heed the warning.”) because they had no real justification to begin with and do this ‘under cover’ buys thing to try to apply a statute that does not apply to lawful personal sales of finite personal property which is essentially what this guy was doing.
correction: “I think they did have…”
should have been…
I think they did not have…
“I think they did have a real crime here“
Pardon me, I think your Freudian slip is showing…
correction for: “…personal sales of finite personal property…”
should have been…
…personal sales of finite amount personal property…
40 RE: “This wasn’t warning against a possible intoxicated driving thing where the evidence is gathered after the offense is warned against in another instance. The ATF already had the evidence of what they say is a crime and but they only warned him then but came back later and got more evidence then arrested him?”
Uh…your spin on getting a break from LE is a circumstantial contradiction. Where evidence begins and ends with a warning and evidense is less or more later is irrelevant counselor especially when one has received a warning.
Only thing one can do in a case where one received a polite warning and blew it is ask the court for mercy. Or perhaps because he is an arms dealer perhaps he could be used for trade with Russia:)
It’s how bureaucratic power gets extended, and is older than the British Empire where it was commented on by a veteran member of their foreign service all the way back in the nineteenth century: push the law here, push the law there, and after a bit the courts will fall into line and agree you have the authority to do something even if it is plainly not covered by the law.
proper thing to do would be to speak to the operators of the flea market…and have them tell him to cease and desist…had a similar situation at a flea market I often visited…crippled kid selling guns from a wheelchair….I remember telling him I didn’t think he’d be able to continue doing it in that context…just upset too many people…suggested a gun show instead…not sure if he took my advice…but he was gone in about a month….
Moderation huh, traded merchant of death for diesel dyke wnba player, locked up old man in fl. Good job Brandon
MADDMAXX December 13, 2022 At 11:46
Your comment is awaiting moderation: Guess ATF is not the only with millennial snowflakes.
40 years in Volusia County and I had no idea there was such a thing as a Volusia Bureau of Investigations. Old “Florida Man” busted for selling a couple of guns because he pissed off some punk-ass millennial (respect my authoritie) snowflake at ATF? Charged with manufacturing AND selling? Must have had “Goofy” as his lawyer. Nothing of any particular significance in his “collection”, no scary black “assault rifles” no illegally modified full auto Glocks, but they got a dastardly criminal mastermind off the street, good for them. Sounds like a fairly dangerous man to me, good to know that he will never legally own another firearm, thanks ATF for a job well done, taxpayers should be proud…
MADDMAXX December 13, 2022 At 12:01
Your comment is awaiting moderation
WTF, “moderation jail”? REALLY? I didn’t say socialist, bitch, vagina, fuck, no untruths AND nothing personal or any of the other verboten crap I’ve been previously “moderated” for… You all REALLY need to post some guidelines for this shit or lighten up on that Kommie algorithm, just sayin…
just don’t say homosexual…it triggers them every time…
One guess: one of the ATF agents saw a gun he wanted and got his buddies to go along with arresting the guy so they could confiscate his guns and help themselves. Even if their victim didn’t get convicted they’d still have the guns and could make him spend the next ten years trying to get them back.
My opinion is the ATF has too much power, too much authority, too little oversight, and needs to be axed.
That stated, a guy that old should have known better. The Feds came a-knocking, and he ignored them. The only defense I can offer, is maybe he’s going senile? In which case, the prosecution and imprisonment might be labeled as abuse of an elderly person?
On the other hand, maybe he was willing to become a martyr to the cause. It’s remotely possible that he has plans to challenge the ATF? Not really likely, since he accepted a plea deal.
Maybe he took the t-shirt to heart… “The older I get the less LIFE IN PRISON is a deterrent”…
So if you’re doing something completely legal and the feds come tell you to knock it off, you should automatically obey them? Even if you’re doing nothing wrong?
No, you should keep doing what you’re doing. What do the feds know? Fuck ‘em. It’s worth it to spend a year in prison getting buttboinked and when you get out be a felon and not be able to own any guns anymore.
At least you can take comfort in knowing what you were doing was COMPLETELY legal.
Geez, what do you suppose a 74 year old guy was gonna do with his paltry earnings from the sale of his own shit anyway?….
probably something really stoopid like spending it on meds or his property taxes that have quadrupled since starting his life on a fixed income. Yep, real heroes these ATF a-holes.
Be a Felon And Not Be Able To Own Guns Anymore…… really?
Seems to me the only people whom are actually exercising their Right To Be Armed are the felons, the rest of us stand in line waiting on a government to give us permission.
Now that’s a great response I don’t need no stinkin’ feds!
yep,..regular as raindrops…let’s see if they eventually post that comment of mine…
Well, I’m not sure locking up a 74 year old man selling guns at a flea market is good use of the taxpayers dime, but If I were fortunate enough to get a warning and not a “felony face plant” from the ATM, I think I might just count my blessings and find another way to get rid of my surplus firearms collection.
Flea Markets are just ‘one’ way of doing things. If this guy had a large collection of value, I’m sure a reputable FFL would have been happy to take them. Maybe he figured he could get more money per unit this way. Well, it certainly sounds like he got more than he thought he might.
sounds like he was a none too bright stubborn old cuss…we all know somebody like that…
Controlled buys but 2 of the firearms turned up at crimes later? Fast and Furious part 2?
over half the firearms seized or taken in by ‘buy backs’ end up at crime scenes later.
“over half the firearms seized or taken in by ‘buy backs’ end up at crime scenes later”
That is quite the claim, would you be kind enough to post support for your assertion?
Or is it just empty speech to support your narrative?
Oh, the irony.
I thought the same thing. Could some Banger have stopped by the flea market to pick up a drop gun? Sure, it’s possible. Did he? No. ATF is guilty until…well they are guilty no matter what.
Where did you read they ended up being used in a crime “later”?
Victor Bout Brittany Griner
Diesel dyke ok leslieann not so much
Maybe I’m a little slow on the fine point of the law but if I advertise a gun on Armslist and the buyer comes to my home and completes the purchase, how am I different from this guy? Is it volume or location?
It’s a surprise! Just have to bend over and wait and see what the AFT has cooked up for you.
That’s the problem here. This guy was doing personal sales of his own finite amount personal property, and that is legal even under the ambiguous statute meaning they used against this guy.
I think the ATF manufactured this. I think they did not have a real crime here but turned it into one by dodging around an ambiguous statute to try to find a way to attack lawful personal sales. Thus the warning, so they would have justification to come back (e.g. “he didn’t heed the warning.”) because they had no real justification to begin with and do this ‘under cover’ buys thing to try to apply a statute that does not apply to lawful personal sales of finite personal property which is essentially what this guy was doing.
correction: “…finite personal property”
should have been…
finite amount personal property firearms
You can sell a gun like that if you want. That isn’t a problem and isn’t why this guy was being looked at by the ATF.
It’s location: the ATF doesn’t want anyone thinking that guns are just a normal part of life in the U.S. of A.
you need a license?…of course good luck getting or keeping one…it’s the 90’s all over again…
“how am I different from this guy? Is it volume or location?“
Volume, repeatedly engaging in dealing firearms without the required license.
And don’t bitch about the law requiring a license to engage in the commercial activity of dealing firearms, your elected representatives wrote and passed the law requiring an FFL to be a dealer.
Our elected representatives also passed laws that made slavery legal. And they rounded up American citizens and put them in concentration camps at gun point based solely on race.
I see why you would have full faith in these reps.
“I see why you would have full faith in these reps“
I don’t have full faith in any congressional representative, Republican, Democrat or independent.
I merely stated the reality of how these laws originate.
And don’t blame me for your gun control laws, I didn’t vote for Ronald Reagan.
“The Modesto Bee provided the following reporting:
Gov. Reagan emerged from the Capitol as the armed group marched down the steps and away from the building.
Reagan, surrounded by youngsters and newsmen, was on his way to a Capitol park picnic with a group of 8th graders from Pleasant Hill.
He said: “There’s no reason why on the street today the citizen should be carrying loaded weapons.”
https://www.snopes.com/tag/ronald-reagan/
I don’t think I would have pushed it, having been warned, unless I was prepared to take it all the way. Generally, pleading guilty doesn’t make a good foundation for appeals. Right or wrong on either side, he made some poor choices.
It was getting to cold in Ohio so dacian moved his wife’s yard sales to Florida. Dont be misled by this article.
A Griner style “wife”?
Dig a little bit deeper and you’ll find that this man was somewhat senile and was selling off his lifetime collection because he needed the money to survive. The public defender that he was given was basically a prosecutor that worked for the public defender’s office for a couple of days and is now a prosecutor again. They deliberately did not try to indict him because they knew the case would get no billed. The true irony is that the man will have a higher standard of living in federal prison then he did outside. unfortunately he’s going to lose his house over this and will have nowhere to go when he gets out.
I watched the fall of a nation first hand in the late 90s when Yugoslavia came apart and can tell you from first hand observation that abuses of power from government officials will never end until they start getting shot. That changes their tune really fast.
Let us all hope he didn’t collect more that $600 through Venmo in this little endeavor. Another out of control and unaccountable bureaucracy will be after him then.
You’re watching the fall of a nation right now. It appears to me that the US is the whore of babylon. Flatteries have made wrong right and right wrong. Now they are working to normalize pedophilia, not pedophiles, minor attracted persons. Or in redneck speak, dead son of a bitch.
What does the daughter of a redneck say after sex?
“Roll over daddy, you’re on my cigarettes.”
Ohhh that’s Baaaaaad
Oh look, the moron made a funny…
Go ask your wife/sister if she thinks it’s funny.
He didn’t make a funny, Maxx. He’s projecting. He thinks all families are like his. He just doesn’t know any better. He thinks family orgy night is normal.
Boy you better be able to whup my ass. I know you’re so smart. Know how to feed yourself? Know how to fix a car? Know how to hand load? Know how to clean a fish? Know how to skin an animal? Just WTF do you know? Do you stand to piss?
No problem with any of those things, especially the first. Watch who you call ‘boy’, you cousin humpin’ hillbilly.
‘Chicks’? So that was you in the coop diddling chickens?
Nice try at a witty comeback you inbred-booger-eating f*ck. Too bad it was in the wrong place. The interwebz are hard for ignorant hicks.
leave it up to an idiot of the left to know what a daughter says after sex…ask Biden.
Every chick I’ve boned has been someone’s daughter, Einstein.
http://www.freefloridafirst.org
No more Union,
No more Feds,
We’ll sleep safe,
In our Florida beds.
YES PLEASE GET A FFL IF GOING TO SELL ON OPEN MARKET …
SOLD ONE TO FAMILY MEMBER KEPT COPY OF DRIVER LICENCE …
That key on the far left of your keyboard. Says “CapsLock”. Push it once.
Y’all ready for another ass kicking? You would think you would have learned from the last civil war. I don’t think you are going to bring back slavery you inbred fucks.
Okay FAKE “Dacian” (never use caps) how the FUCK did YOU make the leap from an old man getting arrested for selling a couple of guns to full blown “CIVIL FUCKING WAR” and “bringing back SLAVERY”… Talk about an ignorant inbred fuck… OBTW: they won’t be dealing with a bunch of poorly armed, ill-trained farm boys next time…
“No more Union,
No more Feds,
We’ll sleep safe,
In our Florida beds.”
“No more union”
Sounds like the treasonous southerners want to secede from the union again. I predict the same results as las time you inbreed fucks attempted it.
Yeah Dacian I am. Let’s see it done pussy. All you snowflakes will fold like a cheap suit. You know this time the bluenecks will be with us. All of the rural people are tired of your shit. I will be happy to watch you starve.
Yes Dacian I am. When you gonna get started? Chickenshit
I don’t need to get started. You are the one seceding. Go ahead cowboy, skin that smoke wagon. (You wont do shit but post on TTAG comments because you are whiny bitch, you don’t have the balls to do anything keyboard warrior)
because you are whiny bitch, you don’t have the balls to do anything keyboard warrior)
Says the whiny bitch keyboard warrior pseudo-“Dacian”…
IF the ATF isn’t busy manufacturing crimes someone might send them down to the Mexican border to help with security (not under Obiden of course).
ATF operates to create fear and uncertainty, these are the hallmarks of tyranny.
always thought alcohol and tobacco were drugs…[DEA?]…so what do we need an agency that does nothing but chase guns for anyway?….their existence is redundant…plenty of other agencies can enforce the gun laws….and without the need for entrapment…a standard tool for them….
….you could make an case for them when they were under treasury…unpaid taxes, and all…but now they’re under justice…and looking more and more like a political tool….
interesting hypocrisy. I have a tenant that was operating an unlicensed, large scale marijuana grow on my property that was illegal under Oregon law as well as Federal law. He was also completing and assembling AR-15s from 80% lower receivers utilizing parts stolen from the legal gun shop he worked for. The Feds have not busted him.
Of course there’s no specific number of sales before a license is needed. That way they can break into your home at any point they choose, steal your property, fine you and put you in prison. Yay, AFT!!!
There are some videos on U-tube about the new firearm purchase farm. The changes to the form bear considerable study; snags abound (intentional).
One of the snags is insidious: “Do you live in the city” (of the place where the purchase is taking place. There are three answers, and one is “Unknown”. The instructions do not indicate what “Unknown” means, or the penalty for not knowing. The “trick” is: the form requires validation by government issued ID, meaning the answer to the question (Yes/No) can get you nailed for submission of falsified federal form. How? Your address on your credential may indicate a larger city than where you actually live (probably based on zip code). If you live is a small town that is considered a different city for govt ID, and declare the larger location as residence, both you and the FFL have committed a crime, not an error.
There are more stupid things, like whether you intend to transfer your gun to a terrorist, or to a person who is planning to use your “gift” in the commission of a crime.
In all, the changes do nothing to prevent crime, but set up some new ways to make the average gun owner a felon.
Idiot. Told he was breaking the law, and being watched, he continued.
Either he bought guns used in crimes or sold them to criminals. In any event he didn’t do background checks and is apparently a bad judge of character.
The ATF has been doing this for decades, its nothing new. Anyone who frequents gun shows, even if he is selling his own personal collection, is at risk of arrest and there is no defense against the government as they put in jail anyone they wish to, guilt or innocent.
The ATF has consistently refused to define “How many gun sales require the person to have an F.F.L”. No matter, its not a defense in court because the ATF is a law unto itself and has no rules it must abide by. It’s also the reason that the ATF can ban just about any firearm it wants to including none-firearms like the ballistic knife and the leather wallet holster just to name a few. The ATF rules at 8:00 in the morning and by 5:00 p.m. its law and the ATF just laughs at any public protest or comment on the matter. They banned ghost guns as soon as the President gave them the green light to do so.
So city boy called me pedophile, and you gonna moderate me? Fuckyou!
Pedo’s should be moderated with a bullet to the brain pan.
my hot take is this:
yes the atf is bad – i get it – we all get it
but if youre on their radar
its because they think youve broken the law
and if youre lucky enough to be in the position
that their first interaction with you is a warning
– and not handcuffs –
and youre too stupid to heed it
you deserve whatever you get
Seems to me the old f—k used piss-poor judgment. If a person is doing something that COULD be considered illegal, despite individual opinions, if the feds tell you to stop and you don’t, that’s on the old geezer and nobody else.
It not like he bought an arm brace legally and lawfully and then the DemonRats push through a law or the ATF changes their mind and makes them illegal. I wouldn’t give it up and I sure as hell wouldn’t talk to a 3 letter agency about what I may or may not own.
But he was selling GUNS and the ATF takes that seriously. He knew he was on thin ice selling guns and especially after the feds tell him to stop, he continued his actions and got his stupid ass prosecuted.
I have not a thread of sympathy for him.
ATF better start worrying about things like Glock switches…something they appear to have no answer for….
I actually know this guy. He’s been selling guns at that flea market for well over 20 years. Mostly junk, but it had been my understanding he was busted years ago. He really was a dealer, no question about that. He also sold some guns that probably could have gotten him some “harsher” charges if you catch my drift. Plenty of other collectors sold their stuff there too, but not on a weekly basis…
“I actually know this guy. He’s been selling guns at that flea market for well over 20 years“
Yeah, so much for the “poor elderly gentleman selling off his collection to buy food” bullshit.
Sure, the ATF has engaged in plenty of liberty stealing misconduct, but that’s not the situation in the case at hand.
POTG lose credibility when they take a bad actor such as this and elevates him to ‘Folk Hero’ status without knowing the facts.
And we all know guys like this at the local flea markets and swap meets. Here in WV we had a feller went away for a very similar situation, he would just wander around the flea market in a long overcoat literally bulging with handguns.
Did it for years, received repeated warnings from both ATF and local LE, but he’d still be out there… After about a year of warnings they sent him away for an extended stay at Club Fed.
And rest assured, it’s guys like these who provide a major portion of the illegal firearms used in criminal acts by prohibited people. It is bad actors like this that drive the call for universal background checks on private sales.
It is bad actors like this that drive the call for universal background checks on private sales.
If they are willing to ignore current laws, warnings from LE/feds why do YOU think they will suddenly have a change of heart and start obeying THAT law. Laws are for “law abiding” individuals but to those already willfully breaking existing laws one more law is just another law to break, meanwhile if I want to sell or gift a firearm to my Brother-in-law, we have to make arrangements to meet at an FFL to do a totally unnecessary background check. Unnecessary because we are BOTH CCL holders and have undergone numerous background checks over the years. I only own four firearms acquired through private transactions (all from family or a close friend) and have only gifted one AR to a family member. Colorado has had a “Universal” background check since 2013, how is that working out for them, California also has universal background checks, yet South Los Angeles witnessed a 742 percent surge in shooting victims during the first 16 days of 2021 alone. To be remotely effective a “universal” background check system would require a National Registry of EVERY firearm in the US which aside from being impractical and virtually impossible is also illegal under the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986 although some states have enacted laws for registration. “Universal” background checks will not do anything to stop the illegal sales and use of firearms, in fact there is nothing short of removing EVERY firearm in the country from private ownership that could come close, welcome to Nazi Germany…
Not sure about the state laws in your state, but according to Federal law, you CAN gift a firearm to an individual without a background check. You can not sell it to them.
how stupid do you have to be to sell guns at a flea market and then continue doing so when the feds come and tell you to stop?
Poor old shits. Lots of poor old shits are making tons of money buying and selling at flea markets and gun shows. Not caring who they buy from or who they sell to.
While legit dealers have to wade through paperwork and carry insurance, pay the help,
pay the rent, and all else.
It is brainless to get a warning and continue the crime.
Private sales are fine occasionally- but be certain you dont sell to a felon
Fellow mentioned Yellowstone- for God’s sake that is a TV show. They also have zombies on TV you know. That isnt reality.
I just got home from an overnight trip to central FL. Not far from where the above occurred. The purpose of the trip was to pick up a Browning Citori from a friend to pass on to another friend (who happens to be a Captain in the local S.O.) It’s a Christmas gift for his SIL. How harmless is that? Does that mean that my friend, myself, my other friend and his SIL are guilty of firearms trafficking without a license? I’ve worked with ATFE agents. They were all decent guys. Never saw anything like described above. That does seem a little over the top. Still, if was cautioned, and he didn’t do due diligence before continuing, it’s on him. And when I say, “over the top” I mean the sentence also. I think a $1000 fine (it would have probably ate up most profits he made) and six months unsupervised probation would have been gracious plenty. Conviction withheld upon successful completion of probation. All civil rights retained. Personally, I would have been embarrassed to be involved in this case.
Does that mean that my friend, myself, my other friend and his SIL are guilty of firearms trafficking without a license?
That’s what it “sounds” like…
“I’ve worked with ATFE agents. They were all decent guys“
Well there you have it GF vouches for the ATF agents he’s worked with as being swell Joes.
And the facts in this case are completely different from your situation, this Florida Man engaged in repeated commercial transactions for profit over a span of years as an unlicensed firearms dealer.
Most rational People have no problem with the occasional personal transaction, even sales for profit. But to engage in unlicensed firearms dealing for a period of years with often no personal knowledge of the purchaser is reckless and irresponsible, as well as criminal.
You are among the few who comment who makes good sense. TY
As long as all involved are Florida residents not prohibited from owning a firearm, and the firearm was “gifted” and not sold, technically it should be okay. If any involved were not Florida residents, or were prohibited persons, or there was anything of value exchanged for the firearm, you could run into a problem.
Take note all you bad a$$ wanna be gun runnin’ gangsta’s…ONE count and he plead DOWN to a YEAR in FEDERAL PRISON. Max could have been 5 years and $250K.
So how does a guy make money selling guns at a flea market, where people are looking for bargains? He’s not an FFL, so he can’t be buying them at wholesale. Are people really buying flea market guns at $50-$75 above normal retail prices?
Or did he buy this guns in 1974 when a starter home cost $30k? Because if that’s the case, I would argue he didn’t actually make a profit and he didn’t actually break the law. Buying goods and holding on to them for decades before selling them for less than their inflation-adjusted price is not any kind of business model.
People make MORE than the going price because there is no paperwork,
Guns are among the few things that bring more money in the underground than retail.
Plus there are many unsophisticated buyers.
It’s great to live in a first-world nation where we don’t have crooked warlords, government backed gangs and shady federales running around jamming up people just going about their business. That sort of nonsense is for those backwards third-worlders.
Uhmmmmmmmmmmm… Yeah, right? Can’t happen here…
The fact that he was given a warning, and chose to ignore it, only makes him look unreasonable in the eyes of the Law. Whether we agree with the Law and whether it’s Unconstitutional or not doesn’t matter, because unless or until it’s successfully challenged, it remains the law.
Law enforcement officers warn YOU to never turn right on red again , you say it is your legal right to do so , after stopping and looking for any potential problems , and then you proceed. What ya gonna do when they come for you ?
Well, since it IS legal in Florida UNLESS there is a FL.D.O.T. sign posted prohibiting it and/or a traffic light with red right arrow, I would stop, flash a double “Hawaiian good luck sign”, and PROCEED with my LEGAL right turn. IF they were DUMB enough to arrest me, I would be buying a BRAND new car(ACTUALLY I would probably buy another classic car/truck/boat/bike/Lake Buccaneer) at the expense of taxpayers(until they make “trater-pigs” personally liable).