Douglas Haig las vegas shooting ammunition
Douglas Haig takes questions from reporters at a news conference in Chandler, Ariz. Douglas Haig has been sentenced to 13 months in federal prison after selling home-loaded bullets to the gunman who killed 58 people in the Las Vegas Strip shooting in Oct. 2017. Haig, 57, also was sentenced Tuesday, June 30, 2020, in Las Vegas to three years of supervised release after pleading guilty last November to illegally manufacturing ammunition. Haig wasn't accused of a direct role in the outdoor concert shooting that also injured more than 850 people. He acknowledged making tracer and armor-piercing bullets at a home workshop in Mesa, Arizona, and selling them at gun shows and on the internet. (AP Photo/Brian Skoloff, File)
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By Ken Ritter, AP

An Arizona man was sentenced Tuesday to 13 months in federal prison for selling home-loaded bullets to the gunman who unleashed the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history, killing 58 people in the Las Vegas Strip in October 2017.

Douglas Haig, 57, also was sentenced to three years of supervised release for his guilty plea last November to manufacturing ammunition without a license, said Trisha Young, spokeswoman for U.S. Attorney Nicholas Trutanich.

Defense attorney Marc Victor said U.S. District Judge James Mahan granted his request to let prison officials consider home confinement for Haig because of the coronavirus pandemic. Haig is scheduled to surrender to prison authorities in October.

Haig was not accused of a direct role in the shooting, which involved a 64-year-old retired accountant and high-stakes video poker player firing military-style weapons modified to shoot more rapidly from a 32nd-floor hotel window into a concert crowd below.

The gunman, Stephen Paddock, killed himself before police reached him in a suite at the Mandalay Bay resort. Police and the FBI determined Paddock meticulously planned the attack and acted alone. They theorized he may have sought notoriety, but said they never determined a clear motive for the attack.

This October 2017 file photo taken by the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department shows the interior of Stephen Paddock’s room on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay hotel in Las Vegas, from which he committed the mass shooting that killed 58 people. (Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department via AP, File)

Haig acknowledged making tracer and armor-piercing bullets at a home workshop in Mesa, Arizona, and selling them at gun shows and on the internet. He used the business name Specialized Military Ammunition. Tracers illuminate the path of fired bullets.

“Doug had no knowledge of what Paddock was planning to do,” Victor said Monday.

Haig’s fingerprints were found on unfired bullets in Paddock’s hotel suite, and ammunition also bore tool marks consistent with Haig’s reloading equipment, authorities said. Haig’s address was on a box that police found near Paddock’s body.

GRAPHIC CONTENT: This photo from police officer video body camera footage on Oct. 1, 2017, provided by the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, shows the body of shooter Stephen Paddock on the floor behind an officer, following the mass shooting at the Mandalay Bay Hotel in Las Vegas, released Wednesday, May 2, 2018. (Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department via AP)

Authorities did not say if ammunition made by Haig was used in the shooting.

Victor said he believed Haig — as the only person prosecuted following the massacre — was treated more harshly by prosecutors than ammunition hobbyists who might receive cease-and-desist warnings for similar activities.

Haig acknowledged that he had no license to disassemble, remanufacture and reload bullets.

As a convicted felon, Haig now cannot possess weapons or ammunition.

His plea avoided a trial at which he could have faced up to five years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

Victor argued for months that Haig could not be fairly judged by a jury in trauma-scarred Las Vegas. But he lost bids to get the case dismissed; move it to Phoenix or Reno; draw jurors from throughout Nevada; or have the judge hear the case from the bench himself instead of a jury.

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    • When they say this fellow was manufacturing AP and traced ammunition, what exactly was he doing? Reloading 855 green tip? I’ve never seen anyone selling loose bullets like that.

      • Yeah, I was wondering the same. As most here already know, “armor piercing” sounds great for a Lefty journalistic piece, but pretty much any rifle round can technically pierce body armor. Even a higher magnum-rated pistol round can penetrate a basic Level II. So I always have to raise an eyebrow and scour the article for more details.

        Looks like Mr. Haig’s legal boo-boo was not that he sold any “armor piercing” anything, but that he was loading quantities of ammunition with the intent to sell (e.g., “manufacturing”). His fingerprints were reportedly identified on some of the casings found in the Mandalay hotel room.

        FWIW, I always apply band-aids to my thumb and forefinger before loading my mags for the range, desert, or even my JHP EDC. I collect the brass whenever I practice, but just in case I ever (God forbid) need to pull my gat to defend myself when out in the world and send a couple of shots as I try to get away to safety, I don’t want to leave any spent casings with my fingerprints. Up until only a few weeks ago, that would have sounded a bit tin-foil-hattish, but nowadays…

        • I advise my clients against fleeing the scene of a shooting. In my state it is a crime. You will find that there are cameras everywhere,. Some person you do not see will call 911. If you are the first to call 911 you get to introduce yourself as the victim. Flight is almost always considered evidence of guilt. I have heard the horror stories of victims criminally charged and sued. Flight gives them another stick to beat you with.

        • Kevin,

          Agreed, especially on being the first to call 911 if possible, to identify yourself as the potential victim in the matter. Also on fleeing a crime scene, which would not at all be the intent. I just like to CYA (or would that be CMA?) for all contingencies.

          At the two nearest practice ranges within driving distance of my home here in SoCal, you are not allowed to collect your brass (with the exception of rifle brass if shooting from a bench area and waiting for the RO to call “range cold”). I once read of someone being wrongfully implicated in a crime some years ago because a spent casing with his fingerprint was found at the scene. Turned out – after much angst for the defendant, no doubt – that the casing had been collected at a public range and used to “salt” the crime scene to throw off forensics.

        • Are you finger printed pistol or rifle purchases in CA?

          Christ, I thought doing it for NFA stuff was tedious .

        • Not Larry. We get a thumb print in CA for our guns. And I’ve had security clearances so many times that my prints are well and truly in the system.

          A revolver has its advantages.

        • Sorry, Kevin, if I need to fire my gun while away from home, I am LEAVING just as quick as I can. I have no clue how many other folk wish me dead at that point, I am outta there. Once home, I shall await the cops to arrive and take my statement, if they are too busy I’ll just be glad I survived.

          JWM, I spent around 18 years with a TS clearance, but the military assured me my prints were not kept, would never be available for other purposes. You don’t suppose I was lied to, do you?

        • Just working in healthcare I have been fingerprinted a bunch of times for background checks and child abuse clearance and elder care clearance. Now with electronic prints I’m sure they get retained more than they used to. An awful lot of people’s prints are on file with government across the country for all kinds of things.

          In this case in addition to the fingerprint, there was a box of ammo with his name and address on it. So that would probably have been sufficient without the print.

          Years ago I attended a lecture by a very good, very specialized lawyer who told a room full of us that after a defensive shooting, if we were 100% certain we had done the right thing, and there were no witnesses or cameras, then get the heck out of there and call your lawyer, not 911. That was before cameras were ubiquitous. Now if you are out in public you are most likely on camera. If you shoot one of the more equal animals you will be on World Star Hip Hop almost immediately, recorded by some helpful Jihoodi who didn’t manage to catch whatever it was that induced you to shoot the lead receptacle in the fist place. So it is probably no longer advisable to leave the scene unless you believe that your life is in danger if you stay. You might have to make that case in court but at least you will be alive to make it.

          As Kevin Jamison has pointed out here, some states may have laws requiring you to stay, so that is worth researching in your area. Thank you Kevin Jamison for providing us information that was AFAIK was unknown to most of us. This information was even unknown to those of us who have been in pro gun activism and were generally well informed of gun and self defense laws.

          In this case the convicted man’s mistake was reloading as a business without the correct FFL. But I agree with his attorney, he got railroaded as the only living person they could pin anything on for the Vegas shooting. Personally I would not be inclined to take any deal that resulted in me becoming a prohibited person.

      • I have regularly at local gun shows. There’s a guy that sells mostly M1 and M14 parts and he has ammo cans of all sorts of grey-market pulled bullets at every show.

    • How is that relevant? Selling a car is not illegal, in itself; neither is selling a car unbeknownst to a murderer who runs down a group of people.

      In this case, he’s manufacturing for commercial sale a product without any legal authority to do so. And before you cry “But…but…but…Second Amendment!!!”, know that nothing in the 2A provides an absolute and automatic override of the government’s authority to regulate commerce.

      This is a criminal enjoying all the benefits of our society, while cheating the People out of tax revenue and producing dangerous products outside of legal and quality standards everyone else must abide by.

      This is not the 2A poster boy you’re looking for.

      • It’s adding a permit to a right. It’s an administrative crime, not a crime with a victim or a malum in se law. The shooter was the one that victimized people, this guy was reloading ammunition and selling it to the general public. Ammunition is still property and we need to stop treating guns and ammunition as some special magical category and preventing people from using, selling, or disposing of their property as they see fit. That is as long as they are not harming other people. Why is this important? The state can deny permits, which means you are unable to exercise a part of a right on a whim. Just look at the barber that was defying the state of Michigan decrees and reopened his shop during the Ronapocalypse. When the state lost to him in court, Whitmer stripped him of his license in a tantrum. It lets petty tyrants inject their politics into the lives of the citizens. It suck that he sold ammo to a scum bag, but if he did not have prior knowledge of what was going to happen, he was convicted on a malum prohibitum law.

      • “…cheating the People out of tax revenue…” The *government* collects tax revenue, not the people. The people and the government aren’t the same thing.

        The wait for a perfect poster boy is self-defeating.

        • The government does not collect taxes from religious institutions, because doing so would give them complete control over those institutions. They should also not be allowed to collect taxes on firearms and ammo, for precisely the same reason.

        • The people and the government aren’t the same thing.

          We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. (effectively establishes a more “STATES” friendly government than the Federalist Papers..)
          As Lincoln said A government OF the people, by the people, for the people…

        • Larryin Texas, your statement about the government not collecting taxes from churches so as to not have influence over them is just flat wrong. By being a non-taxable organization the churches that choose so are actually more controlled by the government who can then strip their tax free status for engaging in partisan political activity, which in my opinion is why we get panty wastes in the pulpits not properly leading their flocks for fear of losing their revenue to taxes.

      • This actually IS the 2A poster boy. A prime example of it too. Same with that couple on their lawn in Seattle. That is exactly the intent of gun ownership. By your logic, would reloading your own ammo with brass purchased from a private sale be “illegal”? Because we can’t have people selling metal, now can we? You MUST ask the government for permission…

        “manufacturing for commercial sale a product without any legal authority to do so”

        Should that though process apply to wooden furniture or homemade products sold individually? Where does your logic stop? Is it strictly limited to “gun stuff”? Where does asking for permission stop?

        TL;DR: You are a FUDD.

    • I’m just surprised that the MSM didn’t make a bigger hullabaloo about the fact that the perpetrator used what look like Surefire quad-stack mags. I guess they aren’t as distinctive as drums, and ignorant reporters didn’t notice.

      • They did. At the time there was quite a lot of hand wringing over his 100 round mags. It faded away once the bump stock became the focus of the hocus pocus.

    • The FBI and Deep State DOS setup this FALSE FLAG to cover a number of operations/events happening in Las Vegas at that time including certain involvements with the Saud family and Prince Muhammad bin Nayef.

      When will people STOP believing the Deep State story of ONE CRAZED SHOOTER.

      Doesn’t happen.

    • To be clear: He was not charged with anything related to the killings.
      He was charged with manufacturing ammunition for sale without the proper licensing.

      • Fair point sir. I’ll amend my statement to say then that I don’t like it as a general point. “Oye mate, you got a loicense?” That type of thing. And I’m sure his clientele contributed to his sentencing. But thank you for correcting me! Have a wonderful day!

        • There’s a bit more to obtaining an ammunition manufacturing license than just filling out a form and paying a fee.

        • I am sure. There are no doubt kickback and graft, in addition to bribes and the obvious corruption, and there may even be a safety inspection in there somewhere. Point is, all of that is illegal under any rational reading of 2A. Including the safety inspection. A sensible man would get the inspection as a matter of course, but he cannot be legally required to, as that is clearly an infringement.

    • He was not licensed to manufacture and sell ammunition. I am sure he was not insured in case anything happened with the ammunition he manufactured.

  1. How about charging the hotel owners and employees who rented the maniac a room and allowed him to carry up or helped him carry up 12 guns and thousands of rounds of ammo?

    • While the hotel staff and employees did indeed engage in business with the shooter, they did not violate any laws while doing so.

      On the other hand, Haig violated multiple federal laws, and wasn’t carrying liability insurance in case there was a problem with his products. He also probably conducted no independent third-party testing of his ammunition for safety or reliability.

      In business, he is what is known as a bad actor.

      • 1. As a West Virginia resident, you are for or against moonshing? The Making and selling of alcohol without a license?
        2. Are you for or against the BATFE enforcing Federal tax and alcohol production laws?
        3. You do know that the moonshine business is a billion dollar industry?
        4. Are you like the pot legalization crowd? That supports taxing pot once its legal to help raise money for the government?

        • If you had known anyone who has been injured by drinking bad moonshine, condensed in a car radiator or cut with wood alcohol for example, you might feel differently about the licensing requirement.

          I’m fine with someone making themselves some whiskey or growing pot, I think the government should stay out of my garden. Isn’t that the small government you conservatives ask for, with less intrusion into one’s private life?

          I have no problem with reloading, reload what bullets you will with what powder or you will and whatever case you desire.

          For those without the capability of understanding nuance, let me put it simply..

          When you offer a product or service to the public, the burden is upon you to provide a safe and reliable product or service that meets the advertised claims.

          Many products are very dangerous and innocent persons can be badly hurt by bad products, so society has instituted a licensing program for the more dangerous items.

          Why is the concept of a civilized society so difficult for many of you to grasp?

          Btw, I don’t post on any forum but TTAG. I’m not even on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram or TickTock.
          So your comment that I am known on many forums is obviously more fake news, you people are just a group of sad little trolls who are really disappointed that reality does not comport with your delusions.

        • And yet you’re all for the government telling you that you can’t own a perfectly safe, functional self-loading firearm or a magazine that holds a certain number of rounds?

        • Wondering if the Mexican drug cartels are pissed about Illinois and other states horning in on their Mary Jane industry? Or, or the Mexican cartels already getting their cut from the Government Cartels??

        • “you’re all for the government telling you that you can’t own a perfectly safe, functional self-loading firearm”

          For some people, absolutely!

          For those that have been diagnosed with a mental illness that makes them a danger to themselves or others, for those who have demonstrated their inability to handle the normal stresses of day-to-day living, for juveniles who are not yet capable of measured, rational thought, those who have committed crimes for which society has decreed the loss of their firearms ownership.

          I must say, the idea that any person should be able to possess any weapon at any time is one of the things that makes regular, reasonable citizens fear the POTG.

        • If it is unsafe to allow a person to possess a loaded firearm in public, that person should be under lock and key, with individual supervision. Such blatant violation of an American’s basic rights should be EXPENSIVE for the taxpayer to enforce. We have many people who advocate that anyone on the terrorist watch list should be denied the right to arms. What a plan. Shall we give them the benefit of the doubt, assume they are not aware that watch list is meaningless, requires no evidence of anything, in fact several people in government have the authority to arbitrarily place everyone in the country on the list tomorrow morning? Took care of gun prohibition, wasn’t that easy? It should be HARD!

      • @Miner49er A private sale of ammo is no different than a private sale of a gun. None of the governments business. If he was advertising then that’s different, then he was running a business ( I didn’t see that defined in article ) I only posed the question because the actions of the government seem punitive, it appears they are going to punish someone even if they have to manufacture a reason. The whole case seams riddled with inconstancy. They never explained a key item, How did the hard drive disappear out of the killers computer when he was dead in a locked room, and the HD was not ever found. Someone was there, most likely a CIA/FBI/ATF/NSA spook.

        • “Someone was there, most likely a CIA/FBI/ATF/NSA spook.”

          Asserting facts not in evidence is the very definition of fake news.

          Asserting a claim without evidence means that your claim can be dismissed out of hand.

        • @Miner49er When you explain the missing HD , then you can dismiss anything else. I’m waiting.

        • Please share with me the credible report of a missing hard drive, that’s something that I have not seen in the reporting.

        • Real MB, do we know whether the government has a license to manufacture a reason?

        • “I only posed the question because the actions of the government seem punitive, it appears they are going to punish someone even if they have to manufacture a reason.”
          Ask the guy who went to prison for making a video that ’caused’ the Benghazi attack a few years back.

        • “ The whole case seams riddled with inconstancy. They never explained a key item, How did the hard drive disappear out of the killers computer when he was dead in a locked room, and the HD was not ever found. Someone was there, most likely a CIA/FBI/ATF/NSA spook.”

          what does any of that have to do with the article or Miner’s comments???

        • Someone was there, most likely a CIA/FBI/ATF/NSA spook.”

          Dude WAS a CIA/FBI/ATF/NSA spook.. That’s why it went quiet so quickly… and don’t ask how I know.. (I could tell you but, then I’d have to kill you)….

      • Idiot – “carrying liability insurance in case there was a problem with his products. He also probably conducted no independent third-party testing of his ammunition for safety or reliability.”

        Not a requirement for any business in a free state/world. “liability insurance” What kind of idiot Karen are you?

        • “Not a requirement for any business in a free state/world. “liability insurance”

          I’m not sure how to respond to your statement, I will leave you blissful in your ignorance.

        • “ Requirement for Licensure in Some Cities or States

          In the US, about one in four professions now require some form of licensure. Professional licensure, after all, helps protect not only consumers but the professionals too. It also allows for easier monitoring of regulated occupations.

          To get such a license, however, you usually need to show proof of liability insurance. General liability insurance, in particular, is a pre-licensing requirement in some states.

          Under the Texas law, for example, some contractors must have this insurance at all times. These include contractors who hold a Class A license — without it, they won’t be able to begin a project.

          Many other professional licenses also often demand general liability insurance. These include professionals like real estate agents, accountants, and medical personnel. The specific laws vary from state to state, so be sure to check with your local insurance board.”

        • it’s harsh calling someone else an idiot while making an incorrect statement. Some licenses require liability insurance.

        • liability insurance” What kind of idiot Karen are you

          If you could actually read AND comprehend, I would suggest that you look up small business regulations in just about every state and you’ll find that LIABILITY insurance is required, Hell when I ran a small home repair/remodeling business in Florida I had to get a “back breaking” $35.00 license in each County I worked in, show proof of LIABILITY insurance AND since I was maintaining a home office I had to have an inspection that included adequate up to date fire extinguishers and safe storage for flammable materials.. The license/insurance is to protect the homeowner from ALL the scumbag scammers that show up after a major storm and rip people off for thousands of dollars in “up front” deposits and then never show up to do the work… If you don’t get that maybe you are THEM….. This guy was running a small business involving dangerous materials (probably in his home) and offering his “product” for sale to the general public who has a right to reasonable expectations that safety and quality controls have been conducted by the seller… ALL major firearms and ammo manufacturers are required to perform certain safety and ballistics continuity tests on every lot.. Those who cite “caveat emptor” need to read the whole descriptor explaining how it works in modern day commerce…

      • Disagree, buyer beware. If both parties are aware of the facts, namely that: The ammo is homemade and at best tested in the home loaders guns, that the seller is uninsured and not liable for his faulty product, and that there is no pretense the product is tested to commercial or government standard. Then its a fair and open sale and the buyer, knowing what he is getting into, is liable for the risks he is taking.

        Now if the seller is misrepresenting or concealing something that’s different, but if its an open and transparent deal then leave it up to the parties involved to decide, just like when two dudes want to get married, I don’t think the government needs to weigh in on every transaction between private citizens. For example, there is no government burden on me buying a weapon and then reselling it in most states, yet if I did the same with a home manufactured weapon then its illegal. “BUT!” you exclaim, “that weapon you originally bought commercial met government mandated specs!” and you’re right. However, there is literally no telling what I did to that weapon while I owned it, and it could have been modified and trashed and be completely unsafe, yet there is no burden when reselling it. Effectively, the resold gun and the home-made gun run the same risk to the purchaser making the law against selling such completely useless.

    • Yes, you need a Type 6 FFL to manufacture ammunition for sale. You’ll also be liable for federal charges of you make alcohol without a license (moonshining) or import items without a license (smuggling). I doubt he had a business license either, and he may not have followed proper regulations for shipment, sales and income taxes, etc. He probably got a tougher sentence than most because of the loose association with a high profile crime, which wasn’t his fault nor did he contribute to it.

      • I hafta correct you there. You can make alcohol all day until the cows come home, as long as you don’t sell it. You can consume it yourself, or you can give it to others (of legal drinking age).

        Two separate people I know well have been brewing homemade mead for their friends (including me) for years.

        • Yep, one can brew up to 200 gallons of beer each year without incurring any legal liability.

          It is only when you enter the public marketplace that you were required to meet certain standards of safety and reliability, enforced by a licensing scheme.

        • Jehovah witnesses make beer regularly for their private consumption. I have been told this by members. I am not a J W….

        • you can make alcohol without a license, but require a license to DISTILL alcohol. so you can make beer or mead without a license but not whisky, vodka, etc.

        • But you CAN ferment (make wine) all you desire… It’s all about the process AND the alcohol content (beer and wine 3% to 14%… distilled spirits @ 40% to 100%) my Grandfather made his own Blackberry wine and Apricot Brandy…. another relative ran a highly successful moonshine operation (originally from Ky.) for decades…..

        • “I hafta correct you there. You can make alcohol all day until the cows come home, as long as you don’t sell it. You can consume it yourself, or you can give it to others (of legal drinking age).”

          Brew, yes, *distill*, no.

          In New Zealand, home distillation is legal…

    • I have my wife who is Thai , with a decent laywer in this country you can get away with almost anything. But if you do not give the king his cut of his silver , you going to spend time in prison.

        • Oh I know, but there is definitely a double for the Plebs and the celebrity and rich aristocracy we have in this country. They get community service and the rest of us get years . It is only when it politically inconvenience do they get real punishment.

    • You cannot make a livelihood without asking for the government’s permission, and if they approve, you must pay the crown.

  2. My legalese isn’t very good, so can someone tell me if this guy actually did anything?
    This just seems like a virtue signal; Paddock off’d himself, but we have to punish someone for it.

      • You need a license to manufacture ammunition if you’re going to sell it, correct, not to simply reload ammunition for personal use?

        I’ve never delved into reloading. Is everybody who reloads their own ammunition technically violating federal law?

        • No. For your own use it is perfectly legal. Just like it’s legal to home brew alcohol for your own personal use.

          Sales of the product is another matter. Just my own choice but I don’t use reloads made by another person. I no longer load my own ammo.

        • jwm,

          Correct and correct. You don’t need any permission to brew for yourself or for others, as long as it’s all done for free and no money is involved. And I shot reloads made by others only twice…the second time, I discovered (because the person didn’t inform me) that he had reloaded them as hot +P, and one of them blew the primer out the back of the case, jamming the bolt and squibbing the bullet. I retired the rest of the box and never shot another’s reloads again.

        • Article said he was doing it for Gun Shows, which has been going on forever. Especially exotic and hard to find ammo. Tables full in ziploc bags.

          I’m not seeing what he did wrong other than the Feds wanted someones head.

        • I once mail ordered two boxes of pistol ammo and got 1000 rds 5.56 reloads instead. Fired some off, worked fine, so I went ahead and shot ’em up. Whoever loaded them was not real knowledgeable, tho, didn’t know to heat treat the neck, just about every round split the neck when fired, got some strange looks at the range.

  3. Even my friend of 47 years told he couldn’t sell his reloaded ammo to me…this charge is BS nevertheless. As is the immense cover-up for the Vegas massacre.

    • Yeah, funny how that whole thing just vanished, like an apparition… Between that and ol Jeffrey’s “SUICIDE,” makes me wanna reach for the aluminum foil.

  4. Unless this is something specific to Nevada, lots of people reload without a license. It’s when you decide to sell it that you need a license.

    • And, it’s not a bad compromise. Ammunition is taxed with the proceeds earmarked for conservation. Reloading supplies are not so taxed.

      We could have reloading supplies taxed, with proceeds to conservation. Would we like that? No?

      We could petition Congress to repeal the tax on ammunition (and guns and archery equipment), depriving conservation programs of these revenues. Would we like that? Debatable.

      So, what do we want? When do we want it? What are we complaining about?

      • I want it completely repealed. Taxing rights is not okay with me. Bearings arms should be like religion. Exempt from all taxes.

        You definitely should not need any licensing and you definitely should not have any targeted taxing for reasons you personally see as good or bad. That is an opinion.

        • Licensing for ammo sales?

          Tell me, when this clown double or triple charged a case by accident and a gun blew up in someone’s face blinding or killing them, is that OK?

          Should an ammo manufacture be required to retain an independent third-party to verify his ammo safety in reliability?

          Shouldn’t ammo manufacture be required to carry liability insurance in case his product through negligence injures another?

        • That is what the courts are for. You need to take care of your own safety regardless of what you eat to what you shoot. Please remind me; who exactly did this guy hurt again? Who exactly was the victim? Statists are right next to Communists and you are both.

        • @miner49er Lol over loaded ammo has happened from licensed manufacturers before.There has been other faulty ammo’s too. idk why licensing would have any impact on that.

          At worst licensing is used to abuse people and at best it’s just a tax. It’s a violation of basic rights.

          Your idea of safety is entirely imaginary and has no real world bases.

        • Miner49er the problem with your argument is that the Feds don’t actually make sure that an ammo manufacturer knows what they are doing. There is no test to pass. You just fill out the paperwork and pay your money. The only reason the ATF even makes you get a FFL to manufacture and sell ammo is because they want the tax $$.

        • Govt doesn’t need involved at all. SAAMI literally sets and approves standards. If it meets the standards then the ammo gets a SAAMI approval on the container, if not, it doesn’t. Up to the consumer to decide if he wants to only buy ammo in spec or if he wants to gamble with Wildcat Cartridges. Govt need not get involved unless someone attempts to falsify their product as in spec or SAAMI approved when its not. Done.

      • You can compromise all you want it’s gotten us so far already. Not one more for me you can keep your slavery. Lots of stupid from people who are allegedly for gun rights in this thread. If you want gun ownership and everything related to it to be a privilege just come out and say it. You do know what a right is?

        • Not one more for me you can keep your slavery

          ????…. And another anarchist intellectual mountain heard from… Just how the fuck do you conflate ANY of this with SLAVERY

      • That’s all a good claim. If I wish to donate to conservation whatever, I can do so any and every day. The government does not have the AUTHORITY to tax ammunition, no matter what the proceeds are spent for. Blindly allowing them to simply ignore that fact is throwing our rights in the shitter.

        • According to many of you the Government has NO RIGHT to tax anything… So all of you great Constitutional legal minds explain to us just how you WOULD maintain a country of nearly three hundred fifty million people and provide the public services (roads, bridges, fire, police, military) that society demands without any revenue… I suppose the government could start a business and go into direct competition with the people but how fucked up is anything run by the government? I give you Amtrak, the United States Postal Service and federal mortgage corporations Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac… Either stfu about the governments right to tax anything (read Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution) or try to find somewhere to live that has NO taxation which dates back to the Egyptians around 3000 BC… Good luck with that.. I’m not a fan of big government but do see the need for someone to keep things flowing and guarantee some continuity throughout the country especially when the majority of the population has chosen to pile in on top of one another in a few big cities and that requires some level of revenue, is it abused? yes, is it wasteful? yes… But, how did it get that way? The PEOPLE allowed it.. Want FREE stuff? Somebody’s got to pay for it, just NOT those receiving the free stuff, so they continue to vote for the shit who GIVES them them the free stuff or whomever promises MORE free stuff and in turn RAISES taxes to pay for it…. Want lower/no taxes? do away with free stuff, make All roads and bridges TOLL only, let shit burn til it goes out on it’s own, arm EVERYONE and do away with all criminal statutes (no laws = no crimes) no need for cops, jails or prisons, return to the days of the civilian militia to defend our borders against better equipped countries like China and Russia, get back to living off the land, grow your own food, hunt, fish (no need for the FDA) educate your kids, produce your own medicines, get used to life without electricity and live your entire life looking over your shoulder wondering who will be next to try to take you out and take YOUR stuff (the ungoverned version of FREE stuff)…

  5. Well, someone MUST pay!! Unbelievable! So, can’t sell homemade reloaded ammo?? Had no idea!! Then the Feds wonder why nobody trusts them. Pitiful…

    • It’s a tricky law. If you bring me your empty brass, I can reload them for you and I’m not “manufacturing ammunition”. But if I order brass and components and make a box to sell you, then I am. I suppose the distinction made sense to someone.

    • You not knowing it’s a crime doesn’t matter. Did you know that you’re not allowed to make machine guns in your garage and sell them to school children? Strange, but true. You’re not allowed to manufacture or sell methamphetamine either. I guess you could try the Steve Martin defense: “I forgot murder was illegal. Excuuuuuse me!”

  6. I once traded parts for some reloads on a gun forum. A few weeks later, I received a knock at my door from two ATF agents. Apparently a cop on the other side of the country had been shot with ammo the same guy had traded with someone else at a gun show. The dude was not licensed to make ammo so suddenly it was my problem too.

    The agents made it clear that I had about 8 seconds to hand over every round he sent me. Thankfully I could account for them all (and had no pets around at the time). Being coerced into signing over my property at the butt crack of dawn by two dudes with their hands on their guns seemed… a bit heavy handed.

    I feel terrible for this guy. Always think forfeiture — of liberty and/or property.

    • Gotta wonder if anyone was looking for the actual shooter. I figure probably not, that could get you hurt. Better to run out and buttfuck some everyday citizens, huh?

    • Christ, in any given year I could have been arrested for guns, ammo, reloading, shooting… breathing.
      The Feds needed someone alive to pay for Vegas massacre.

      • The guy is not “PAYING” for the Vegas massacre… He’s paying for being stupid, he’s paying for violating Arizona business laws/regulations, he’s paying for violating federal ammunition manufacturer licensing regulations and he’s most likely paying for NOT reporting the income from his “business” on his tax forms… But, mostly he’s paying for not being smart enough to invest in a box of surgical gloves (fingerprints) and leaving a paper trail (name and address found AT the scene) He was NOT charged with anything relating to the Vegas massacre, so please, STOP helping other fraudulent claimants’ by perpetuating this lie… Reading comprehension is NOT a requirement but it is a highly desireable skill….

  7. First of all it should not be a crime to make and sell ammunition without a license.

    Second, if it is a crime the penalty should be very minimal and certainly not a felony. No way in hell this guy should be facing Federal prison time.

    The only responsible party in this mess was the murderer himself.

    • Tell me, when this clown double or triple charged a case by accident and a gun blew up in someone’s face blinding or killing them, is that OK?

      Should an ammo manufacture be required to retain an independent third-party to verify his ammo‘s safety and reliability?

      Shouldn’t ammo manufacture be required to carry liability insurance in case his product through negligence injures another?

      • If it’s not a major manufacturer’s name on the box, you’re aware of risks involved. If you’re not comfortable with those risks, then buy from a major manufacturer.

      • ca·ve·at emp·tor
        /ˌkavēˌät ˈem(p)ˌtôr/
        the principle that the buyer alone is responsible for checking the quality and suitability of goods before a purchase is made.

      • If you injure yourself using someone’s homegrown reloads, and they aren’t willing to assume liability, your only recourse is through the courts. It’s a stupid move on your part. There really is no third party assurance their ammo is safe even if they are licensed, except a valued interest in your repeat business and that they are probably required to carry liability insurance as part of the licensing deal.

      • Miner, that did not happen! It would also not be OK if he had a nuclear weapon in his car and blew it up in D.C. But that did not happen, and he should not go to jail for it. Lots of things would be bad, can’t we stick to something which DID happen. His ammo worked perfectly, and that question is what all the restrictions are supposedly about. Fine him $50 and move on. His sentence had nothing to do with his offense.

  8. This guy ought to have checked into what he was doing. His conviction falls into the “play stupid games, win stupid prizes” category.

    From ATF website:

    I do not have sympathy for this fellow on any level. Home manufacturing ammunition is a great hobby, but carries many inherent dangers and liabilities that should never be ignored or abused to make a few dollars.

      • No license to manufacture and sell to the public a dangerous item like ammunition?

        So in order to be free, we should be able to make our own whiskey without a license, manufacture our own methamphetamine without a license, build machine guns in our basement and sell them to school kids without a license, right?

        There are more anarchists on this list then I thought…

        • SAAMI makes ammo standards, not government. Buy SAAMI approved stuff, or risk it with wildcat ammo. Buyers choice.

        • It’s way more fun to sell the school kids the alcohol and meth first, wait a couple hours then sell them the machine guns.

      • Why does’t everyone become a medical doctor then? Why is the man always keeping us down with his licensing and regulations?

        Certain things need to be regulated. Especially the manufacture of things that explode inches from our faces and can cause loss of life or limb.

        Certain licensing is ridiculous. Barbers…

        Some licensing is done as a way to keep supply of certain occupations in check and therefore keep wages and income to businesses high. Taxis…

        • Yeah dude. The person working with a straight razor right around your jugular doesn’t need any kind of certification. It’s way safer than something that explodes close to your face.

          Just make sure it’s not allergy season when you go to the barber.

        • The due diligence is on the buyer not uninvolved 3rd parties like yourself. You don’t have the right to tell someone that they can’t hire a voodoo practitioner to treat their ailment. It is none of your business. Who exactly do you think you are?

    • I handload. I would never sell my handloads. I would not give my handloads to someone else for use in their firearm. I would never use someone else’s handloads in one of my firearms.

      If asked I would help and teach someone to handload.

      Too many things that can go wrong.

      I am sure if you actually get the license and equipment to produce and sell ammunition commercially the accompanying insurance would be astronomically expensive.

    • Violating an unjust law may be reckless but it is not unethical. You are almost certainly breaking the law somewhere in your life. Lets hope you get convicted and feel the full weight of the possible consequences because you are a cold person and deserve it. Hopefully just being you is punishment enough though.

      • I have been known to speed. If I get a ticket then that is on me. I have full automobile coverage. If I cause an accident then the injured party has remediation.

        If an unlicensed, uninsured, unbonded ammunition manufacturer makes a round that goes boom and takes someones life where will the recourse be for the next of kin?

        • Whether or not to take that risk is a decision for the buyer not you as a third uninvolved party. One has the same risk when one hand loads, the only difference in this scenario is that money changes hands for the loading effort. Generally speaking exchanging money for something does not make an ethical act unethical.

        • Did that happen with this guy? Jail for a year and loose your rights for as long as you live because you lack credentials?

        • Food truck sells you a poison taco. Where is the recourse for your next of kin? Don’t be ridiculous, either hide in the basement or come out and live.

      • You know I agree with you!

        That whole licensing of doctors thing is just a plan to steal our freedom, the same goes for pharmacists as well.

        If you feel that you must go to a Doctor Who is licensed by the tyrannical state, then so be it but they are taking your liberties.

        • Yeah, those licensed doctors are so very safe.

          According to a 2016 study led by Martin Makary, a professor of surgery at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, medical errors in hospitals and other health care facilities are so commonplace that preventable deaths due to medical malpractice are the third leading cause of death in the United States. Their latest estimate found that approximately 251,000 lives are claimed each year because of medical error – about 9.5 percent of all deaths annually in the United States. This staggering number is higher than deaths caused by stroke, accidents or Alzheimer’s.
          Licensing for anything doesn’t guarantee safety. And in many cases is just a tax as was stated above.

        • Licensing in certain professions allows for regulators to ensure a certain level of initial and ongoing education. It allows recourse to remove dangerous, unethical… practitioners from the rolls of licensed purveyors of such occupations as medicine, finance, insurance, dentistry, law, cosmetology…

          Too bad politicians do not need to be licensed.

        • consumers choice to use a licensed physician or a quack. Fed Govt doesn’t even set the standards, varies by state, and international non-profits keep track of which medical schools are approved. Feds don’t need involved AT ALL.

    • Key word here is ” for Profit”

      Who gets to decide what profit is under a private sale?

      How much is the reloaders time worth? Minimum wage? Don’t think so and I defy the Feds to assign a price point to skills and abilities I gained over a long (years) time of study.

      If I reload 20 rounds of X, add in material, then add the cost of ‘my labor’, but sell at a does this law even apply?

      `just sayin

  9. When you consider the potential injury resulting from some imbecile who knows nothing about internal ballistics loading the wrong powder and projectile combination, the requirement for a license for sale is not unreasonable. This guy was just unlucky enough to hit the jackpot. I wish the Feds would go after my marijuana bootlegging tenant and associates who malappropiated my rental property for an unlicensed grow that was illegal under Oregon law as well as Federal law. They were also assembling AR-15s from stolen parts for resale. Also shot at my son with a 12 gauge shotgun.

    • This is all your fault by letting them remain there. Its early and already the dumbest thing I have read today.

    • You know, most people on this list view you as a tyrannical agent of an evil government who is attempting to compromise those fine folks liberties.

      Most on this list think assembling A.R. 15’s without any sort of license is perfectly A-OK, and they don’t favor licensing for manufacturing ammunition either.

      So the next time a tenant rents your apartment and wants to engage in exercising their freedoms, you just need to step out of the way so sovereign citizens can be sovereign citizens.

      • You keep smelling salts handy for when you vapor lock and pass out, don’t you?

        It’s no damn wonder Trump gets a second term. You are the perfect example of his opposition.

      • You do not need to be licensed to manufacture ammunition.

        It is when you sell that ammunition to another person that you need the licensing and all the insurance and stuff that goes with it.

        I am going to manufacture ammunition tonight for my personal use much as I can brew beer, spirits, or wine for my personal use with out needing licensing or to pay taxes.

        • while you can brew beer, mead, etc. without a license, you cannot distill spirits without a license even if for your personal use, at least where i live.

      • I bought my AR -15 parts from reputable vendors and left the one thing I wasn’t comfortable doing, head spacing and torquing the barrel/barrel nut, to a reputable gunsmith who’s qualifications were satisfactory to me. The rest I assembled with my own tools and know-how. Try not to faint or call the constabulary in a huff.

  10. The story states throughout that the guy was busted for illegally manufacturing ammo for sale without a license, most likely didn’t claim the income so he never paid taxes which put him on the wrong side of the Feds twice, plus business and tax laws in Arizona, probably got off light.. It’s made pretty clear that he had no knowledge of the guys intent and he was not charged with anything to do with the murders.. Anyone who can’t understand why licensing is necessary for some things like the manufacture for public consumption of a device whose sole purpose is to create a controlled explosion (a shaped charge) to send an object hundreds of yards at up to three times and over the speed of sound with the potential to cause great bodily harm should thank God everyday that breathing is a reflex action….

    • What a ridiculous statement. All that fluff and silliness, and yet you forgot to inform us how any of that is affected by a license. Does a license reduce the velocities? Limit the range? Sound and fury meaning absolutely nothing. And just to top it off, a cartridge is *not* a shaped charge, you’re talking out your ass.

      • Explanation is futile when dealing with brain dead anarchists’ who suffer from tunnel vision and function with a brainwashed hive mind… Almost like you guys are getting daily “talking points” just like the big boys at the DNC and the MSM… Oh, sorry was that supposed to be secret?

      • a cartridge is *not* a shaped charge, you’re talking out your ass.

        A shaped charge is an explosive charge shaped to focus the effect of the explosive’s energy… An ammo cartridge is designed to direct the explosive energy of the powder it contains in one direction with sufficient force to propel a projectile to velocities capable of penetrating another object… the very definition of a shaped charge on a smaller scale…

        • I certainly hope you don’t reload. Your lack of understanding starting with how a cartridge works is astounding. Smokeless powder is not an explosive, it deflagrates to build gas pressure. So indeed, “shaped charge my ass.”

  11. This is one thing I do agree with Libertarians on. The demand of a government required licences is wrong.
    But industry unions or guilds are also a really big problem in the way of entrepreneurship. That is what they have in europe. And its why so many folks come to america to start a business. The land of the free.

    • On second thought. Can we trust a businessman today? 150 years ago your reputation was everything. You didn’t want to be known as a cheater. Or a liar. You made a business deal and kept your word.
      But in today’s upside down morality. The three L’s supported a guy. Claiming to be a Medal of Honor winner. When he is not. It went to court. And he we won on “free speech” grounds.
      Capitalism works when it keeps its moral component. And we have a lack of morality in many places in our society.

  12. This is how they get you. All those 922 parts laws and constructive possession, improper configurations, and mag limits, banned triggers and bump stocks… You can not comply and probably skate by, but if you are involved in a crime, or are unfortunately linked to something bad like this, then you are the only one left standing to take the blame. And if course, they will threaten you with all kinds of worse charges unless you take the deal and accept your guilt. There is enough latitude to probably get you and punish you for something. I don’t know if he could appeal or get off but either way they are punishing him now.

      • ITAR only applies on an Export. Selling ammo to a Nevadan doesn’t count. What actually counts as an export is tricky though. It doesn’t have to leave the country. Selling to a foreign national can count as an export, so can explaining how to do something.

  13. “ammunition also bore tool marks consistent with Haig’s reloading equipment”

    What total BS. That’s even dumber than the cop BS claim they can look at a fired projectile with their Dick Tracy magnifying glass and tell what barrel it was fired from (TOTAL BS).

    • Extractors and ejectors leave unique tool marks, not to mention chamber, barrel and feed ramp.

      Keep on hanging out with right wing extremist gun-nuts and you’ll find out all about the technique.

      • Extractors and ejectors and the rest of your shit are parts of a FIREARM, doofus, not reloading equipment. And they operate in a high speed, high pressure, high temperature environment, which reloading gear does not.

  14. I learned two things from this article and its comments.

    First, you can’t sell reloads without a license.

    Second, the TTAG comment board is STILL a dumpster fire of bad faith and straw-man arguments. It’s like watching children argue. I bet a lot of the commenters don’t even understand what a straw-man argument is, because it’s hard to believe this many supposedly grown men would continue to employ that logical fallacy if they knew what it was.

  15. Most of the time when you duck regulations and avoid paying fees you end up fine. But sometimes you get gigged.

    And sometimes you win the whoopsie-lottery.

    Sounds like this guy was very much in business and made some poor decisions. Oh well.


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