Douglas Haig arrest for supplying ammo to the Las Vegas spree killer (courtesy
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“An Arizona man who sold ammunition to the gunman in the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history has been charged with manufacturing armor-piercing bullets,” reports. “A complaint says unfired armor-piercing bullets found inside the Las Vegas hotel room where the attack was launched on Oct. 1 contained the fingerprints of ammunition dealer Douglas Haig of Arizona [above].” Previously, Mr. Haig had admitted . . .

he’d sold ammo to Stephen Paddock. He’d publicly claimed that he’d noticed nothing suspicious when he sold 720 rounds of ammunition in the eventual killer weeks before the Mandalay Bay attack that killed 58 people.

“I was not in any way, shape or form associated with the horrible crime that he committed,” Haig said at a news conference Friday at the Phoenix-area office of his attorney, held shortly after he was charged.

Mr. Haig also revealed he’d sold Mr. Paddock “tracer rounds” from his home in Mesa, Arizona.

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    • Doesn’t really matter what the definition is or what you sell 50 cal and below, but they are probably going to charge him first with failure to have an ammunition manufactures license….which is the law if you sell roll your owns…
      They may have a harder time with the armor piercing part. My old Ruger .338 Win Mag I use for hunting bear and moose in Alaska will defeat any body armor with the proper 300 grain projectile. And if you manage to stuff enough ceramic and AR-500 plates into your vest and they actually stop the round, all the ft lbs and inertia will be transferred to your chest, probably breaking all the ribs around the heart and/or tearing the cartilage connecting the ribs to the sternum and tearing your aorta or crushing your heart in the process… I’m not a doctor and never was a aoldier but I did spend 34 years as a firefighter/cardiac medic and have seen a few bullet injuries.

        • And specific to HANDGUN cartridges. This is the part so many forget. Despite their general buffoonery, when the AP ban was written the writers understood standard rifle rounds would pierce Kevlar vests.

          That doesn’t stop ATF from classifying rifle rounds as handgun rounds though… Not that they’d ever try [sarc]

        • It is entirely possible he had ammunition that was solid copper like the new m855. That IIRC would qualify as “armor piercing” due to the bullet construction.

      • Correct, and the only prohibition on armor piercing bullets applies to handgun rounds.

        Also, since these were “soft” targets by all definitions of the word, there is absolutely no benefit to armor piercing ammo. In fact something like a soft point would do more damage.

        The only real crime is manufacturing and selling ammo without a license.

  1. That’s kind of weird…Paddock was going for soft targets, so why would he think he needed AP? Well, not sure what is going on with this. Supposedly, no motive, do who knows.

    • They want to brush aside any other accomplices by saying, “Yeah, see. THIS GUY WAS IN ON IT! HE SOLD HIM THE AMMO, AP AMMO NO LESS!”

      This is basically a process crime like Mueller and the Russia investigation. Charge someone with a crime associated to the suspect for something not related to the actual event.

    • Well, he certainly wanted to puncture those two aviation fuel tanks not far from the party crowd!
      At least as a distraction.
      And he did puncture at least one, but it contained jet fuel not aviation gas!

      • So far, I have seen absolutely no evidence of when, or by whom, those tanks were shot.
        No forensic evidence, no eyewitness evidence. Nothing other than, “Oh look! Someone shot these tanks!”
        Have any of us seen any? Even any credible reports (by that, I mean something besides conspiracy throrists) stating that those damaged tanks are somehow connected to the massacre?

  2. Well the first reports said he fired at the fuel tanks at the airport. Perhaps he thought that was the only way he would put holes in them.

    • In the list of guns the killer had in his room one rifle was Ruger American in .308 Win and 3 or 4 AR-10’s in .308 Win.

      In this story it’s not said what cal the AP ammo was in, so it could be .223/5.56 or .308/7.62×51.

    • He also had a couple of .762 AR 10s or whatever.
      And he did puncture at least one of the tanks, but the jet fuel just doesn’t ignite like av gas woud have!

      • Here we go again! I am willing to bet the big bucks that an AR-10 in .762 would easily punch holes in those tanks even at *1600* yards, never mind 600. In fact, I bet such a gun in just .500 would do the job. 7.62, not so much, but perhaps with AP there’s a chance. OTOH, since he probably tried, apparently not. Say, did he have bump fire on those AR-10s? That would be sporty.

      • @Larry: No bump fire stocks on the AR-10’s according to the LVPD report that was put out 2 weeks ago. All the AR-10’s had bipods on them. The report also states they only found 8 empty casings in .308/7.62.

      • @LarryinTX

        Have shot an AR-10 at 1/4 inch soft steel plate with mil-spec ammo (Federal XM80C 149 grain FMJ). At 100 yards it pops a pretty little 1/2 plug out of the plate. At 417 yards it would crater the surface but not go through.

    • “They also said artificial sweeteners were safe, WMDs were in Iraq and Anna Nicole married for love.”

      Mr. Rate…Shooter

    • 600 yards is not a long distance for someone shooting at something stationary like a fuel tank, in fact it’s a piece of cake with a decent 308 and a ballistic table that is anywhere near correct

      • Hitting it is not in question – it’s the amount of kinetic energy that the bullet carries after flying that far. After all, such fuel tanks are not built like car body panels! (They are probably double walled with an air-gap between layers, so as to prevent accidental damage.)

    • There’s no proof he manufactured the ammunition, he might of had some he bought at a gun show or had for a long time and re-sold it, which is how the shooter met this seller.

      This screams shit show investigation.

    • It’s not. It’s only illegal to import AP ammo that can be used in handguns (such as AK and AR pistols), although M855 has a cut-out, and there has never been 5.45 AK pistol sold in the US but Eric Holder banned 7N6 anyway. You can make all the AP ammo you want in the US.

    • I don’t think it is. But either way it has zero impact on the shooter and his situation. It’s not like he needed them. Did he even use them?

    • If it’s for a rifle then you’re exempt. It only applies to handgun cartridges (the idea being to prevent a pistol from being able to penetrate a Kevlar vest).

      My understanding is you can’t sell them commercially (actually running a business) but private sells are permitted, I would assume to allow the collectors market to exist or to at least make it reasonably enforceable.

      The other issue is if the guy loaded them himself with pull downs (or whatever other source he had) he can be hit with being a manufacturer without a license. If he actually has one, then they can hit him for selling AP rounds (assuming they claim they’re handgun cartridges).

  3. And exactly what are “Armor Piercing” rounds? Didn’t some media outlet start a sh*t storm a while back claiming AR rounds were armor piercing?
    Is Armor Piercing just like Assault Weapon, a made up term.

    • There actually is a legal definition for “armor piercing” rounds because armor piercing handgun rounds are federally illegal. The odd bit is that the definition revolves around the composition of the round (i.e. being composed primarily of tungsten or something) rather than the performance of the round.

      In this report, it doesn’t specify if they were talking about rifle or pistol rounds. Armor piercing rifle rounds can be illegal on the state level, depending on the place (and I highly doubt they would be illegal in Arizona) but are not illegal federally. We need more information about this case.

      • One report stated that it was reloaded .308 AP ammo that was found in Paddock’s room, unfired.

        Supposedly, the tool marks on the rounds matched Haig’s reloading dies.

        That’s the claim, anyhow.

        • So the same drivel as “the rifling marks on the bullet matched (only) the rifling in the suspects firearm”/just like fingerprints. Without BS what would they baffle a jury with?

        • the 855 ammo which we often discuss is marked as “SC”, milspeak for “steel core”, in my play with steel plates does not penetrate as well as standard ammo. 7.62, OTOH, is marked as “AP”, for “Armor piercing”, and if you’ve ever seen dissected examples of each, the 5.56 looks like a normal bullet with a BB enclosed in the lead, while the 7.62 looks like a solid steel 7.62 bullet with a thin copper jacket. No question which would be more effective against armor.

        • Except the AP ammo was .308/7.62 caliber according to the LVPD report. And, they’d probably argue that .223/5.56 isn’t .22, but something larger and therefore not excluded.

  4. From the article: Haig is a 55-year-old aerospace engineer who sold ammunition as a hobby for about 25 years.

    Depending on the definition of armor-piercing, all 5.56 ammo is armor piercing. Was this actually steel core ammunition? It seems weird to me that an intelligent man, a known presumably reputable ammunition dealer, a man with a good day-job career, would even do this, given the poor risk-reward ratio involved.

    • It’s called deflection. The FBI is facing a crisis of legitimacy and there is a small but growing call to abolish the FBI altogether. This guy is merely someone to crucify to try and deflect attention from the FBI’s own criminal activities.

  5. 22CFR§ 478.11 Meaning of terms. Armor piercing ammunition.
    Projectiles or projectile cores which may be used in a handgun and which are constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or full jacketed projectiles larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. The term does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, frangible projectiles designed for target shooting, projectiles which the Director finds are primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectiles or projectile cores which the Director finds are intended to be used for industrial purposes, including charges used in oil and gas well perforating devices.

      • Totally agree. The gun media should be able to give us the real definitions and give us “ammunition” to use against the liberal idiots. Like the Virginia Tech guy with an semi auto rifle and trying to buy 5k rounds. In most states you do not need to be a citizen to buy a rifle, so why was he charged?

  6. Well, its probably wrong, however it’ll be enough to bankrupt this guy with legal bills, which is really what they want to do anyway.

      • Gunbanners seem to think even one bullet is an unnecessarily large amount of ammunition. To them, 720 boolits=720 dead minority children (even if Steven Paddock’s targets were white Republican young adults).

  7. Wow this is some BS. And on a day the naive see how corrupt their precious FBI is. BTW what kind of dude sells ammo as a “hobby”?!? Anyone???

    • Well, if you’re not really making money from it, or not trying to make money from it, is it a business even if you sell items occasionally? The IRS doesn’t take kindly to people running a “business” (ie: writing off their hobby) with continual and consistent losses and no profit.

      • REALLY believe that? That’s a progtard business plan for THOUSANDS of leftist “business”. They just call them “not for profit”. Take in $, blow it all = not for profit (noble thing). OR see also Amazon, Musk, Solar/wind anything.

        • You don’t? It’s a well known red audit flag with the IRS for a person to try to claim their hobby business to write it off on their taxes never turning a profit and only losses. Your counter examples are totally different. Are you seriously trying to claim that Amazon or Tesla aren’t real businesses and are simply a hobby that someone is trying to claim as a business for tax advantages? They’re not even filing under the same category with the IRS.

          Buy hey, if you think you can claim your hobby as a “business” to cheat the IRS, go for it!

  8. This story just adds to the stink surrounding this whole story….I try not to be the tinfoil wearing nut job, but given the recent events around the FISA issues and the president, my government isn’t making it easy.

  9. One more reason not to sell anything firearm related to individuals — even if you think they are sane, it might just be acting. Not worth the risk.
    This fellow will spend lots of time in courtrooms for the next ten years even if he is acquitted of the charges. Every personal injury lawyer involved with the victims is busy preparing to sue him.

  10. This is where all the 922r US parts rules, sporting purposes and things that are legal “at the discretion of the director” potentially along with bump stocks, enhanced triggers, state wide registration schemes, etc could be an issue, if they can make enough things murky or illegal but not regularly prosecuted, they will have dirt on anybody should they need to prosecute someone in a related case.

    They wouldn’t just go door to door looking for it, but should you come up as a person of interest, there is something they can get you on. Maybe not win, not at least apply the screws, maybe get a guilty plea.

    • Sir, you sound like an articulate and educated gentleman indeed! Shall we gather at the pub and brawl together?

      And can I bring a few of my Israeli friends as well? I’m sure they would enjoy your company.

      • No, I’m not a dual citizen, but my wife and children are.

        Yes, it is true that Israel attacked the Liberty fifty some odd years ago, and good people died. But Israel didn’t know it was an American ship due to gross negligence. Israel apologized and paid reparations.

        There have been many other friendly fire incidents in the last 50 years. Each is a tragedy, but life moves on, so please get over it already.

        Yes, Israel has done lots of things in the name of survival that you will never hear about, because they live in a bad neighborhood.

        No, I am not a neocon. Most people who comment on this site are aware of my left leaning Libertarian viewpoints.

        And no, I am not a warmonger. I’m actually part of the two state solution camp. But if any piece of crap hate filled racist wants to go a few rounds, I’m more than happy to oblige.

        Just don’t expect it to be a fair fight.

      • IdahoBoy – You sound quite unnecessarily violent in my opinion.
        “But if any piece of crap hate filled racist wants to go a few rounds, I’m more than happy to oblige. Just don’t expect it to be a fair fight.”
        “Sir, you sound like an articulate and educated gentleman indeed! Shall we gather at the pub and brawl together? And can I bring a few of my Israeli friends as well? I’m sure they would enjoy your company.” (Unquote)

        *How about just a heated debate instead first? I would believe that a much more appropriate behavior, don’t you?

        Back to the discussion of Israel’s attempt to sink our LIBERTY for two plus hours.

        First off, I do not hate the Jewish people. I know they are used as fodder the same as loyal Americans.
        Are you telling me Iboy, that Germany paying reparations to the Jews for the Third Reich’s Genocide makes their murder OK and Acceptable? Is that what you are saying? I’ll repeat myself again because I know you are not naive nor ignorant.
        A TWO HOUR MISTAKE (((?))) BS!!!
        Our “Liberty” was surveilled and attacked by Mirage Fighter Planes, Bombers and Torpedo boats at close distance on a clear day for (((two plus hours))). There is no mistaken a (((440 foot))) Haze Grey, U.S. Naval Ship that size, for that long…
        It was not the pushing of one single button, the dropping one bomb or the firing one missile (((“MISTAKE”))). The Liberty received a 40 ft. size torpedo hole on its side and it was riddled throughout with holes looking more like Swiss Cheese than a Ship. The Israeli Government was in contact with Washington D.C. the whole ‘Six Day War’. It knew exactly what it was doing. The Liberty was supposed to sink to blame Egypt. What else has Israel done to gain sympathy and alliance ((((((?)))))) Israel is not our friends, they just use our money and blood to fight their wars, not ours.

        Iboy, Remember the USS Liberty next time you celebrate your ‘Six Day War’ Victory, because in its arrogance and contempt for US will be what break our chains from them.

        Iboy – Did you even take the time to listen to the Captain and the Crew’s testimonies or are you going to call the United States Highest Decorated Naval Ship’s Captain and its Crew-members liars too (((?)))

        I’ll quote you again Iboy, “Just don’t expect it to be a fair fight.” Yeah I know that already. The Mossad motto: DECEIT IS ESSENTIAL IN WARFARE

        The Lost Memorial Day: The Forgotten Day Israel Attacked America | USS Liberty (GTR-5) 50 Year Anniversary – June 8, 1967 | 50 Years of Silence , Cover-up and Betrayal! | The U.S. Navy and USS Liberty’s Crew Gagged Testimonies:

      • I’m of the opinion that “Punch a Nazi” is a fine and noble thing to do. But “Sucker Punch a Nazi” is safer.

        Nobody cares about your conspiracy theory. If they did, they would have done something about it in the last 50 years.

      • Iboy – FYI; If you are not a conspiracy theorist, that alone would automatically disqualify you to a position as a Detective or Intelligence, because that is exactly their job. That alone debunks it as misinformation. Any questions?
        Ozzie, please indulge me and tell me two issues that the Democrats, Republicans, CNN and Fox News never question and agree upon. I know three, do you (((?))) $ doesn’t count as one. It really is an important question to know though. No kidding.
        P.S. I bet you know already, but you won’t answer Iboy. But anyone else can answer it, if they would like.

      • don’t “give in” to the jew jerks!
        the jews were entitled to ZERO “compensation” for what-ever may or may not have happened to them during WII….
        first off: it occurred during WAR-time and surprise! surprise! atrocities actually occur during wars….
        second off: there’s nothing special abt jews any-way….
        lastly: jews were responsible for the mass-murder of tens-of-millions of White Russians during the bogus “Bolshevik Revolution” and the murder of hundreds-of-thousands of other Europeans during the Bela Kun reign of terror…..
        (see YouTube series “Europa”)
        in that light: jews got what was coming to them..

        what-ever-the-case: jews have been OVER-compensated 100X-over for any-thing (most likely of a minimal, marginal nature) that ever happened to them in the last century or so….there-fore: they should STFU and “cop-it-sweet”/”cop-it-on-the-chin” when any-one criticises these desert pirates!

      • Lastly!!!
        “If Americans were told the truth about what happened on June 8, 1967, they might be more discriminating in seeing through Israel’s rhetoric and objectives.”
        – Retired U.S. Navy Admiral. Thomas Moorer
        Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff from July 1970 to June 1974 and Chief of Naval Operations from 1967 to 1970.

        …but please “Do not believe me or what anyone else says until you can prove it with your own research, but do listen to everyone though.
        – MWC

        **REMEMBER THE LIBERTY!!! …and Reopen ||9|| not for you, but for the children.

  11. Sounds like he may have reloaded old M2AP 30-06 bullets into .308 win brass and sold them. The only way they can say that is illegal is if he has/had an FFL. Evidently it was a “business” according to the RJ here, so we’ll see how this all shakes out.

    I personally think it is a pathetic waste of everyone’s time and further deepens the mystery of what happened. I’m honestly starting to lean toward the idea that the FBI and Metro here *ROYALLY* bungled the investigation and are trying as hard as they can to grasp at straws to give it an air of legitimacy. We’ll see.

  12. So this was the second person they taunted with for weeks? A guy who makes a few bucks selling reloads? That’s it?
    I have lots of steel core surplus in .308, is that AP? it can over penetrate anything.

  13. Total misinformation to sway the uninformed public. Most large caliber centerfire rifle cartridges commercially sold for hunting will defeat police body armor. .338 win mag, 7mm mag, etc will pass through regular police body armor, through the body and out through the back panel, especially if the trauma plate is not used. Most officer remove trauma plates because they are heavy and uncomfortable. Regular duty police Vests are designed just for pistol caliber (low energy) rounds.

    The poor guy who reloaded this ammo and sold it is just a scape goat, they are charging him because he did not acquire a license to sell ammo, no tax revenue collected. He should fight this, but they would bankrupt him in legal costs.

    • Well, they have to find someone to prosecute. You can’t spend millions on an investigation and have nothing to show for it. However, it’s still a little early to say if the guy is the Martha Stewart / Scooter Libby of this investigation or if he actually did something worthy of being prosecuted.

  14. When he first became a person of interest, his old website was still active, even though he was no longer selling things. The website now just says “coming soon,” and everything else is gone.

    I don’t remember any specifics on armor piercing ammo on his website, but he definitely used to sell both tracer and incendiary rounds.

    Here is some text from his old website:

    Specialized Military Ammunition is your source for premium, MILSPEC, tracer and incendiary ammunition in popular military calibers including .223 / 5.56, .308 / 7.62, 9mm, .45 Auto and 7.62x39mm as well as other popular calibers. SMA tracer is always bright ignition and bright tracer; that means it lights right out of the barrel and is easily visible in daylight. SMA Incendiary is available in two types; IM28 which is an older but effective compound as well as the state of the Raufouss Zirconium compound which ignites diesel and kerosene. Satisfaction is ALWAYS 100% guaranteed.

  15. Now I found more text from an archived version of his old webpage. He does mention penetrator rounds, but nothing specifically on real armor piercing rounds.

    More text from his old website:
    Previous capture 15 Next capture
    2016 2017 2018
    47 captures
    6 Dec 2012 – 3 Feb 2018
    About this capture

    Limited Production
    12 Gauge
    9×19 / 9mm Luger
    .40S&W & 10mm
    .45 ACP
    5.56NATO / .223Rem.
    .300 Blackout
    7.62NATO / .308Win.
    .30’06 / .30 US
    .300 Winchester Magnum
    Video Gallery
    Contact Us
    Specialized Military Ammunition

    Specialized Military Ammunition, LLC (SMA) was started in 1991 as a small business to support the emerging needs of SOCOM for foreign ammunition cross training and fabrication of mission specific ammunition, from small lots of 100 rounds to 10,000 rounds. SMA prospered with this relationship and continued to expand, eventually entering limited sales to civilians.

    In the mid 2000’s contracts began to shrink dramatically due to funding decreases, and private civilian sales began to dominate the majority of our business. We have been fortunate to evaluate many types of foreign and domestic high performance ammunition from .380acp tracer and incendiary rounds, 5.56NATO / .223REem. tracer, raufoss, and penetrator rounds, 7.62NATO / .308Win. raufoss, and tracer rounds as well as foreign military ammunition and incorporate the best of what we tested into our product.

    SMA has had the opportunity to establish invaluable relationships with people on the leading edge of advanced ammunition technology and development. We will gladly share information and experiences with our customers to ensure that all expectations are met and common pitfalls are avoided.

    We currently offer new loaded specialty ammunition, recovered reloading components and brass processing for 5.56 and 7.62 NATO as well as loaded ammunition – both civilian and military. Common products range from demilitarized components to new small arms ammunition components such as ball, tracer, incendiary, incendiary tracer, armor piercing and armor piercing incendiary in NATO and COMBLOCK calibers.

    Our Policy

    SMA fully gurantees all ammunition sold 100%. If there is a complaint; either a full refund will be given or more ammunition. The customer is always right! Even if the “incendiary doesn’t trace when shot in the air.” Tracer is a flare in the base of the bullet ignited by the propellant, incendiary is a charge loaded in the nose of the bullet jacket and is detonated upon impact with a hard object.

  16. Most regulation and licensing imposed on us by Government, are a load of crap.
    That said, Disregarding ones we don’t like, is not much better.
    If a licensing requirement is B.S. work to change it or shut up and comply with it.
    It can be done, We just elect a President that is doing just that.
    If this guy did what the Government is accusing him of, he should have to pay for it.

  17. I’m seeing nothing but bullshit on both sides of this mess.
    Sounds like it’s all just a pile of “It depends on what your definition of is, is” Lawyer double speak.
    His operation looks to have been much more than a “hobby”,
    but it seems his only connection to the Vegas shooter, was to sell him some ammunition.
    Was it really just a weekend hobby? or was it really a fairly large unlicensed ammunition manufacturing,
    and sales operation, producing and selling some sort of illegal ammunition ?
    To quote the tootsie pop owl, ” The world may never Know”

  18. Not dotting i’s and crossing t’s will get you in the crosshairs.

    The bigger thing to note is that after MONTHS of intensive investigation is seems all the POPO have is this guy making ammo for sale without a license. They want a scapegoat so they can put the issue on the shelf.

  19. He should fight this in court. Most law enforcement officer and even the FBI are whoafully uneducated on firearms and ammunition. He can beat this, I am quite sure there is not accurate information in the search warrant based on science. He might have to plea to not collecting taxes but nothing else.


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