What happens when you post an untrained security guard armed who’s with a handgun he’s not licensed to carry at your business? If things go poorly, you’re almost sure to test the limits of your liability insurance coverage. That’s happening right now the to developers after they hired the wrong company to manage security at a retail center in North Portland, Oregon.
Security Guard Logan Gimbel, aged 28, shot and killed a man in broad daylight over the 2021 Memorial Day weekend at the North Portland Lowe’s. News of the incident didn’t go national until the guard’s body cam video was released by prosecutors after they filed murder charges against the guard.
The now-former guard is facing a second-degree murder charge and claims that the man he shot was using his truck as a deadly weapon. Indeed, an innocent person has every right to use deadly force to stop an attacker from trying to make him a hood ornament.
However, Gimbel’s conduct in the moments before the shooting escalated a shouting match and a trivial case of trespassing into gunfire and a homicide.
Gimbel identified the now-deceased victim, Freddy Nelson, as a trespasser at the store. Instead of calling the police to cite the man and order him to leave the property, the unlicensed “mall cop” pulled his car in front of the trespasser’s truck, partially blocking him in.
“Get the f*** off my property!” was Gimbel’s opening remark to the alleged trespasser. He said that repeatedly after blocking the man in the parking space.
Gimbel barked orders to leave the property while standing in front of Freddy Nelson’s truck which was backed into a parking spot with Nelson behind the wheel. In fact, it looked as though Nelson and his wife were preparing to leave when the scenario began. But with the security guard’s car partially blocking them in, there was no way for them to leave.
“Are you refusing to leave?” the Gimbel asked the now-deceased Mr. Nelson. We can’t hear Nelson’s exact words in reply, but the guard Gimbel moved to physically remove Nelson from the truck. At that point things quickly turned into a pepper spray battle between the two.
That’s right, the unlicensed security officer sprayed pepper spray into the cab of the pickup truck through an open rear window. As if that was going to de-escalate the situation.
The guard kept repeating, “I told you to leave the property!”
Indeed, it seemed as if the guard was daring Freddy Nelson to run him down. And as tempers quickly escalated, Nelson looked like he was going to do just that. That’s when Gimbel fired four rounds into Nelson through the windshield.
Here’s NSFW video of the incident . . .
As if Gimbel’s professionalism — or lack thereof — wasn’t evident enough, once the threat had ceased, Gimbel made zero effort to render aid to the man. Instead, the guard stood around telling the Lowe’s manager that the man was “bleeding out” while Nelson’s wife was screaming.
It was a true, “No sh*t, Sherlock” moment.
This incident will likely cost the shopping center’s developers, TMT Development, seven or eight figures and could bankrupt Cornerstone Security that put an unlicensed, poorly trained armed security guard in their company’s uniform in a marked company car.
As for Gimbel, he’s looking at a range of liability, both criminal and civil in a very left-leaning county. Good luck convincing a jury of Portland residents that what this guard did was moral, ethical, or reasonable under the circumstances. It doesn’t pass either the Reasonable Man Doctrine much less the Any Damned Fool standard.
The biggest take-away from this is that while you have every right to use deadly force against a criminal attack, if you instigate the confrontation, your defense in court becomes much more difficult.
The classic example is flipping someone the bird while driving. If that escalates into a road rage attack and you shoot the other driver who came after you moments after flipping him off and questioned his mother’s virtue, you may lose your mantle of innocence in court.
In this case, from viewing the news reports (which admittedly are oftentimes less than completely reliable) along with the surveillance and body cam footage, it surely looks like Logan Gimbel’s mantle of innocence was on shaky ground from the moment he put on that gun without the proper license that fateful day.
Furthermore, he did nothing but escalate the confrontation, something that doesn’t play well with cops, prosecutors or jurors. Let that be a lesson all of us can keep in the back of our minds.
KATU has the story . . .
The security officer not licensed to carry a gun who fatally shot a man in a North Portland parking lot earlier this year is now facing a murder charge, according to court records.
A Multnomah County Grand Jury on Thursday indicted Logan Gimbel, 28, on second-degree murder with a firearm, unlawful use of a weapon (firearm), two counts of second-degree unlawful use of mace, and recklessly endangering another person.
According to police, Gimbel was hired as an armed security guard to patrol businesses in the Delta Park area.
At around 6:40 p.m. on May 29, 2021, police say he shot and killed 49-year-old Freddy Nelson, who was sitting inside his pickup truck in the parking lot of the Lowe’s store on North Hayden Meadows Drive.
Gimbel claimed he fired in self-defense, police records show.
Gimbel’s records with the Oregon Department of Public Safety Standards and Training (DPSST) show he was not licensed to carry a firearm when he fatally shot Nelson.
Another lesson for business owners or churches looking to either hire security services… make sure any private security contractors hired to protect your interests are properly licensed, trained and insured. And if they’re volunteers protecting your church, make sure they’re level-headed and trained in the art of de-escalation.
After all, nothing will drive away church parishioners faster than a child custody dispute in the daycare area escalating into a drawn gun or worse because a volunteer security “guard” lacked training and skill sets above and beyond the use of the gun on their hip.
Wow, you don’t have to be “left leaning” to see that this fuckwad needs to be put away for the rest of his worthless life…Never seen an armed security guard at a Lowes AYWHERE must be some badass plumbers and construction people in Oregon.
I think this is what happens when the “Portland effect”, is allowed to go on for over two years now.
Age-restricted video.
John Bosch, I have no YouTube account. Can you please provide another link to the video? Rumble, maybe?
No Google account?
This is Butter on rumble. He posts police videos. This one was on there a week or so ago.
Yep. When there’s no police response to issues people need resolved, they’ll find others to do it.
Often, especially when dealing with lowest bidders, the result will be that the already low qualifications for police seem like mensa standards
That’s some kick-ass Lowe’s security right there. Hard core. Getting things done “off the books” kind of security. Must be ex-mob security.
Heard about all the antifa rioters in Portland?
this is what happens when you give Paul Blart a gun…actually even if he was licensed he would have been charged…you’re trained to deescalate..not escalate a confrontation…and his authority was very limited…something he should have been made aware of….personally costly to him…and very expensive for his employer…
Hold up watch the whole thing here , looks like old boy in the truck tried to hit him twice
SO while yes he was not licensed he was assaulted with a vehicle. Could it have been
de-escalated? Yes But until you are actually in that position at that time you cant say how you would react.
https://www.kaotic.com/video/5b5ed597_20220821070642_t
Yes But until you are actually in that position at that time you cant say how you would react.
Sure I can, I know that if I had TRIED to run over the fuckwad he would have been run over. All he had to do (as I would have done) was get the fuck out of the way and let the guy go. If a crime had been committed call the cops, you’ve got a description of the vehicle its occupants AND the damn tag number. Trespassing is NOT a capital offense.
So he’s a “former gunslinger” now, too?🤪
Sounds like mr dumbass was looking to kill somebody. Now he’s getting lots of anal and a room with a view.
The saggy pants “security guard” is far past his eyeballs in deep legal dodo. Zero and I mean Zero right to use deadly force. I hope everyone’s liability insurance premiums are paid…Disgusting video display of utter incompetence. Huge Gigantic parking lot and an azzhat has a cow over someone using one itsy bitsy parking space…disgusting.
Yep. And he deserves every minute, or should I say every inch of it.
The unlicensed security guard was a deraigned power mad nut case and the video will send him to prison for a long, long time , hopefully for life.
The man’s wife told the guard she was calling the police that should have ended the confrontation right there.
The guard could have taken down the license plate number and given it to the police that were on their way to the confrontation. There was no need to try and take the man prisoner or draw a gun and threaten the couple with death.
The security guard prevented the man and his wife from leaving and they could not back up and they were trying to leave.
The man and wife had done no damage to the property nor threatened anyone and were trying to leave the property.
Once again we have a case where a company was sending out men who were not licensed or trained and another company hired them. The security company should be and will be sued for millions and the owners of the security company should also receive jail sentences.
I did a better imitation of you several posts down.
You forgot to mention “rivers of blood and gore.” And “viscous naked ape.” And “Far Right radical.” And “Capitalvania.”
Kudos for “deraigned power mad nut case.” I’ll have to save that one for future ridicule.
“Deraigned” = proven or refuted by proof, especially on threat of combat. – legal obsolete transitive
Totes worth the 40K salary.
Taking your rent-a-cop job so seriously you’d kill a man should exclude ones hiring as a rent-a-cop.
Wondering about the “not licensed to carry” statements, though I agree he showed extremely poor judgement. As far as I know, there’s no license requirement for open carry in Oregon. Did they mean he didn’t have a license to be an armed security guard?
You can open carry in Oregon if you are at least eighteen years old or more without having a felony record and a state or federal prohibition to possess firearms. Open Carry Laws In Oregon? Oregon is a permissive open carry state, and you do not need a state license to carry a firearm openly.
Don’t know what was meant by “unlicensed” in the article, doesn’t really matter cause that guys REAL problems start somewhere in the vicinity of “negligent homicide” or at least Felony first degree Manslaughter… He lost self-defense claim when he blocked the guys only exit with HIS body while yelling at the guy to leave…
“Oregon is a permissive open carry state, and you do not need a state license to carry a firearm openly.”
Yes, as a private citizen. An individual.
He was in the employ of another. How does that change the dynamic?
Don’t know I’ll ask.
Oregon has set additional standards for armed guards (http://www.oregon.gov/dpsst/PS/Pages/Armed-Security-Professional.aspx). They must be a least 21 years of age. The individual cannot have been committed to Oregon’s Mental Health and Development Disability Services Division (or similar out-of-state service). He or she cannot have been banned from carrying a firearm as a result of mental illness or other issues and cannot have a civil restraining order in place that would preclude firearm possession in interstate commerce.
Portland, Beaverton, Tigard, Oregon City, Salem, and Independence have passed loaded firearms bans encompassing all public places, Maybe that is it. It’s ILLEGAL to carry a loaded firearm in any public space in Portland? Otherwise not clear, website NOT AVAILABLE (the dreaded “404 PAGE NOT FOUND”)
in most places you don’t necessarily need a permit…but you do need some training to be an armed guard…aka a “license”…
OMG. His own body cam and every other cam and witness will send this idiot to jail for murder. WTF. He told him to leave, he tried to leave … slowly … that isn’t assault. This is a damned fool with a gun riding a power trip. “Am I supposed to render aid? I’m not sure what to do here.” OMG. I’d normally support a fellow security guard, but he is NOT one of us. Good riddance: never own a gun again, sit in jail for years, never have money in the bank because it all goes to the horrified widow.
@Dan, WRONG.. The gentlemen driving the vehicle COULD not have left. The female was not in the car at the time he lunged his vehicle at the security guard. Odd, also how the video from the prosecutor switches view from the body camera to another security camera during the vehicle lunge at the security guard. At NO point was the female in the vehicle from the time it was turned on. Did the guard show poor judgement, yes. The driver was NOT just trying to leave based on the fact the female was not in the vehicle.
lol the woman was in the car until that badass decided to spray mace inside the vehicle. It is at such point the woman exited the vehicle and the driver became enraged, while being blocked and with a gun pointing at him.
I hope he rots in prison until he dies and go to hell.
About the first question comes to my mind, was this man in fact trespassed from Lowes? Or, maybe it was mistaken identification?
Of course, that is pretty irrelevant, in view of the fact that the “security guard” seemed to be looking for a fight, and an excuse to use his gun.
In point of fact, the guard’s car wasn’t entirely blocking the pickup in. The pickup could have left, except the stupid guard was standing in front of the truck half of the time.
A lot will hinge on that trespass business, I think. The numbskull might convince one jurist or more that he was legitimately confronting a trespasser. Remember, you only need convince one halfwit jurist of your innocence to avoid a criminal conviction.
The security (guard?)s car did in fact block one of two possible exits and he planted his fat ass directly in the only option the guy had to leave all while shouting at the guy leave and making it impossible for him to do so? And what the hell, exactly WHAT do you have to do to get “banned” from Lowe’s? Shoplifting? bad checks? loitering? threatening an employee? None of which carry the fucking “Death Penalty” this clown needs to spend a LONG time in the grey bar hotel at the expense of the people of Oregon.
He was maintaining “command authority” by ordering conflicting directions (“leave now”, while blocking the exit). Must have been LEO trained.
In Ca, a person that has been caught shoplifting used to get a ride into jail, get cited out and had to sign a form that if they go on that store’s or any other store in the chain or corporation physical property, they are legally trespassing.
Maybe the security guard recognized this guy and wanted to give him a lot of grief. He may have the right to restrain the person and that was why he was blocking his exit, while yelling about trespassing.
I don’t know, but that is what I got about the story. Were the po po called prior to the shooting?
Yes the husbands wife shouts out in the video she just called the cops. That should have shut the foul mouthed idiot up right then and there.
In many jurisdictions, merchants have a common-law “shopkeeper’s privilege” that allows them to detain shoplifters for the authorities. But that’s not what was happening here. There’s no shopkeeper’s privilege to detain trespassers you’ve ordered off your premises.
Of course, I’m sure such distinctions would be lost on this numbskull. He probable needs a written procedure, with color illustrations, to keep from pissing his pants or getting caught in his zipper when he visits the men’s room.
The dufus should’ve never been there…all we do in this country is make excuses for and coddle thugs… good riddance… jury nullification needed…
The guy was somehow a thug??????????
MAYBE BECAUSE HE WAS A TRESPASSED THIEF!!…HE KNEW HE WAS NOT ALLOWED THERE…HE KEPT COMING BACK…HE GOT WHAT HE DESERVED…SO SICK AND TIRED OF CRIMINALS GETTING A PASS…
I wonder how fast someone would say that if some slob decides that you “should’ve never been there” and then refuses to let you leave and shoots you
HE WAS TRESPASSED FOR STEALING ON MULTIPLE OCCASSIONS… HE WAS A THUG…STOP CODDLING CRIMINALS…PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE THE REASON CRIMINALS FLOURISH….
if that were true you simply block him in and wait for the police…you do have a right to detain…bit that’s usually when you witness a crime in progress…not simple trespass…absolutely no justification for the use of a firearm here…
I have even another takeaway. Under no circumstances, BE in Portland Oregon in any capacity.
Reasonable, simple & effective advice.
He needs to be prosecuted for a murder charge. This is obviously not a valid self-defense shooting. At least the prosecutors office in Portland would finally do their job and prosecute a criminal.
“He needs to be prosecuted for a murder charge.”
Anyone care to bet if he’s a registered Democrat?
Or any associations with Antifa? 🙂
This just proves that man is a naked viscous ape looking for a chance to kill someone for looking at their wife while rivers of blood and gore flood our nation because of the Far Right insurrectionists that squeeze a penny so hard that it screams because they want to murder people of color and the slaves and history shows that and Capitalvania because assault rifles kill people and guns are shipped in a pipeline from states with lax gun laws that we could fix by Universal Background Checks and Safe Storage Laws because school shooters are conservatives who wear body armor and no one with a popgun stands a chance so the solution is obvious as Adolf Hitler proved by electing Donald Trump and our country is a laughingstock around the civilized world because of the free flow of unregulated ghost guns that no other country would tolerate because they have good gun laws. Or something.
I see you beat dacian to the punch and saved us all a lot of time. 😂
Did I miss any? I think I forgot something about striker-fired pistols without a manual safety.
The only thing you did not realize is that this was the only time on T Tag that you were 100% correct in everything you mentioned.
@dacian
and you didn’t realize he was mocking you for your ignorance and still don’t realize it.
Yep! Ya boiled lil d down to his basic essence…the smell must have been awful.
Congrats on the world’s longest run-on sentence, Mr. Alien.
alien is another mealy mouth history illiterate democRat who is exactly what he claims to disdain.
Oh, sorry Debbie — here’s your
sign/sarc tag.Perfect dacian/prince albert/minerva responses ALL rolled into one heaping steaming pile… Good job…
Ooops you didn’t mention the “Hillbilly’s” (minus 5 points)…
You missed putting a ‘Far Right Radical’ or two in that screed. Otherwise, great stuff. 👍
Even I had to take a breath and look for punctuation.
This isn’t a good legal analysis. A valid claim of self-defense is not dependent on you having a license, for example. That’s gun law, not self-defense law.
A vehicle can be deadly force. You are allowed to defend yourself from being run over, no state has a law that says you must sit there and let a vehicle monster truck you to death. But to claim self-defense you need to clear a number of other hurdles, not merely facing a deadly threat.
There is a crucial part in the video that cuts away from the body cam. I do not know why this is. Why do we not see the body cam at that point? It’s important. The truck clearly tries to exit then stops suddenly. Did the guard jump in the way of the truck? I have no idea. Did the guard have his weapon drawn then or right after that? I have no idea. The guard says – you already tried to hit me once. But we can’t see that, we are just going by his words. Maybe he truly believed he was going to be hit. Even if we don’t know for sure, we can put ourselves in his shoes and think – is this how I’d act under these circumstances? Is this how a security guard should act?
Next thing you see is the body cam again, and the guard aims his weapon at the driver. This is the problematic part for me, legally speaking. The guard moves out of the way of the truck but is pointing a gun at him. Why is the guard doing this? When exactly did the gun come out? Where is the imminent threat of deadly force at this point? I’m not seeing imminence. If the truck tried to hit him before, it’s parked now. This is crucial for a self-defense case. You can’t claim self-defense on an action in the past or for something you might think will happen in the future. It has to be imminent. The guard draws his gun when there is not an imminent threat. That’s bad. It tells me his mindset is to go from 0 to Hair On Fire as fast as he can.
But the guard didn’t shoot when the truck was parked. The guard shot when the truck tried to pull out. Is it completely reasonable for the guard to believe the truck was going to hit him? I think it is completely reasonable because the man turns the wheel, steers the truck in the direction of the guard and accelerates. Why the driver is so nonchalant about a pointed gun I have no idea. Why the guard is standing in front of the truck I have no idea. I think it would be reasonable to get out of the way of a moving truck and not stand there like you are made of titanium. Was deadly force the guard’s only choice? Didn’t he demand the truck leave? The guard shot a man for doing the very thing he wanted him to do?
I’d like to have more questions answered but I would agree that it’s not looking good for a claim of self-defense.
The first move, where you correctly point out the cut-away scene, the truck moves towards the guy who is, from the driver’s point of view, backgrounded by the security car.
That move is definitely a deliberate move towards the security guard, probably as an attempt at intimidation since all it would have taken to sandwich the guy between the security car and the front of the other vehicle is to say on the gas.
At some point during, or just after, this movement the guard draws his gun.
The vehicle is then backed up into the space as the guard, now with gun in hand, side-steps to the right, putting him back in line with where the driver next attempts to go (to the driver’s left). Part of me suspects that the guard is concerned that if he has to shoot his rounds won’t pen the windshield and so he’s trying to get an angle through the driver’s side front window.
That raises [angular geometry and turning radius] questions about if he can just step out of the way of the vehicle once he attains the right angle. IOW, if he moves far enough to “get the shot” does he remove himself from danger and thereby remove any reason to take “the shot”? All of which is quite academic post-hoc since what really matters is if the guard knows this or not. The fact that he can be shown it, and maybe even entirely agree with the analysis, after the incident means fuck-all in the moment.
One thing’s for sure here. This is a pretty decent example of how “Shoot the driver, stop the truck” works.
no state has a law that says you must sit there and let a vehicle monster truck you to death.
And NO state has law that says you can block a vehicle with your body attempting to restrict that vehicles progress. All fat ass had to do was STEP ASIDE, the guy was TRYING to leave, and that clown was TRYING to “unlawfully” detain him.
Is there a law that says you MUST stand in front of a vehicle after ordering the person to leave? That looks like intentional provocation.
Right. If you read my entire comment you’d see I agree with you.
This story has been beaten to death elsewhere, as long as a week ago.
Masktards vs. untrained armed guard. It seems that the universe has set up a situation here reminiscent of a Greek tragedy. Everyone’s about to get screwed for the amusement of the Gods.
The security guard being a bit of an idiot isn’t really up for debate, it’s the deeper issues that raise concern. This whole thing is what might be technically described as a “total and complete shitshow”.
The guard was supposedly on the premises because of theft, loitering and on-property drug use issues that had become serious problems. Obviously, such things represent risks for the companies in question as well.
It’s also clear that there’s some history between the parties here to which we are not privy. I’ve seen some details on that elsewhere but cannot verify any of them (some have since been proven incorrect). Suffice to say, these people obviously “know” each other. This is clear just from the interaction that they have. Everyone is escalating things the entire time, right up until the driver gets de-escalated permanently. The previous experience with each other, one surmises, didn’t involve a good interaction.
At the point that the guard pepper-sprays through the rear window I’d say you can marshal a pretty good argument that the guard is the aggressor (though, granted the other two are escalating this as well). But what he’s doing doesn’t constitute a lethal threat. He’s being a dick as you might be able to get some sort of minor charge to stick at that point but that’s about as far as that goes.
That very rapidly leads to the driver, who’s been sprayed, to bumping things up a notch when the vehicle he’s driving becomes a potentially lethal weapon and…. shots fired.
Which goes back to the placement of the security car. I suspect, but cannot prove, that the SUV can, in fact, get out around the security car if the driver turns the wheel to the left (driver’s side) and is careful. The initial “aggressive movement” of the car is to the other side (right, passenger side).
It could be argued that the guard is standing between the two vehicles so that the SUV can pull out in the direction that the guard wishes it to go. I might buy that argument if it was sold convincingly but it doesn’t make standing where the guard was standing a smart thing to do.
The driver in the vehicle then reverses back into the space and then moves forward in the direction it might be able to get out from but the guard has then moved to block the exit, has his gun out and is screaming not to move the vehicle. When the vehicle advances the guard fires.
So we’re left with a series of things to try to dissect here.
1. What’s really going on that this place has an armed guard? If they required armed security why do they feel they need it? Obviously, this leads to questions about police behavior in the area, the DA in this area and the general level of “law abidingness” currently measurable within this geographic location.
2. Who the fuck are these two masktards and what are they doing at this location? Clearly they’re not really up to anything useful or good and they clearly have zero respect for the security on premises (not that they necessarily should).
3. Given the general background level of tension that’s clearly present in this area, and the stress-induced behavior of everyone in this video what else is going on? This leads into a whole series of topics I’d sub-head under “potential societal breakdown/degradation”.
4. Armed guards in general. These people present a series of questions that range from practical to ethical, not only in their own behavior but in the employment of such people and the reasoning behind hiring them in the first place. Again, I’d place this under the sub-head in #3. Clearly, loss to theft past a certain point is a threat to a business. We’ve seen this is places where drug-store chains have just pulled out because “there’s nothing we can do”.
The problem here is that if there really is nothing a business can do legally/ethically and the only people who can do those things (police) are unwilling or unable to do the necessary things… do you really have what you’d rationally call a “society” at that location? Strong arguments can be advanced that you do not.
5. A close dissection is required to determine how common these things are (they seem more common but that may be an artifact of modern communications tech).
If they are more common than the baseline, that should be closely looked at for root causes. As I’ve pointed out before, epidemics and pandemics when brought to public attention, real or fake (Governments in the past have used health as a bullshit justification a la “Die Juden haben das fleckfieber!” which was nothing but an excuse to oppress people for supposed public health reasons) lead to a bunch of somewhat surprising problems that one might corral into the topic of “social unrest”. All told this leads to a .88 correlation with a public call for a more powerful government to deal with the problems of health and social unrest.
All of this suggests that the last two years may have created a powderkeg in some areas (or throughout the West if you like). Problems like this are known to cause stress which is associated with lashing out, short tempers, violence, theft, vandalism etc.
6. In regards to the actual situation itself, at what point is what level of force justified and who, if anyone, in this situation has any level of social authority? Was the pepper spray out of line? Does it come into line under any circumstances and, if so, what are those circumstances?
Messy. Very messy and potentially a sign of deeper issues at the social, social communications or both levels.
Sounds like a candidate for the ATF, FBI or capitol police in D C.
“1. What’s really going on that this place has an armed guard? If they required armed security why do they feel they need it?”
It’s PORTLAND, Oregon. The place that used to celebrate their weirdness, their eccentricity. Does that require further elaboration?
The ‘powers-to-be’ made a conscious choice to let the animals run the zoo. This is an expression of that result. The voters told the city what they wanted at the polls, and they got EXACTLY what they asked for…
Does that require further elaboration?
In this case, yes. Everyone knows that neighborhoods vary. There’s at least one spot we might call “the other side of the tracks” in every large metro area. Personal, intimate knowledge of the area changes perceptions of everything you do when in such an area.
Portland has bad spots and spots that are perfectly fine. The bad spots are indeed growing and in some cases popping up in formerly good spots.
If, for the sake of argument, the area in this video is known for meth use fueling theft and thieves who use extreme violence to further escape from “authority” (whatever that may be) then a guard or cop would approach people completely differently than they might in an area known for being a nice place. The emotional approach by all parties plays into the outcome of a situation and this, undeniably, is affected by overall socio-geographic knowledge of the specific location.
Which sounds like a bunch of sociology bullshit but it’s not and everyone here actually knows it. A person knowingly employed in a bad area operates under a heightened state of alert when they are in that area which directly influences their judgement of what is and what is not a threat. This goes directly to the reasonableness of each party involved in a situation like this.
Who escalated what and why and can they (other than the dead dude) articulate a reasoning for it?
IMHO, though I can’t prove it from a video, both the driver and the woman display symptoms of what I’ve personally witnessed to be early-stage meth use past the “tweaking” stage of the high, meaning they got high 8-12 hours ago. Their mannerisms fit this to a T. Now, maybe I’m reading that wrong but they’re sure showing the symptoms.
Given this, I’d be very cautious to approach them too. Shit, I don’t even like it when I detect people working who display this sort of behavior, which as become rather common among gas station attendants and mostly goes unnoticed by the vast majority of normal people who have no experience in dealing with people using meth. Even a lot of cops mistake it for someone being on coke and having used it much more recently.
And now, Geoff, since it turns out I have a bit more free time than I expected I will tell you in a broader context why this matters. Because it’s inextricably linked to everything else that I talk about in terms of advancing the 2A.
See, the 2A fits nicely into an overall philosophical framework that most people these days, including many 2A supporters do not understand. Similarly, they don’t understand where or how it is being eroded. Instead the focus on legal assaults on the 2A, which are but one small front in a much larger war.
For the purposes of this post I’ll simply refer to the people engaged in this assault as I often do; “the Left”. IRL this group includes a lot of people who actually don’t agree with each other on the details of much (which is why people note that “the Left” tends to eat itself). This group does, in fact, contain Marxists but it also includes people who are not Marxists. Most people are unaware, for example, that Marxism is an offshoot of Malthusianism which contains both “young” and “old” Malthusians who represent two different strains of thought. Marxism is one of the larger offshoots, very specifically of the Young Malthusian way of thinking.
And this fact is a large part of why the Republicans and Democrats seem so similar in some regards. Because, generally speaking, they’re all Malthusians which means that they broadly agree on the general tenets presented by Thomas Malthus. The differences in in how they interpret the meaning of the theory, and therefore in what should be done about things based on the premise that Mr. Malthus was correct.
An ignorance on this topic leads people to offer simplistic solutions that do not work in the real world for the reason that they’re based on, at best, a superficial analysis of what’s going on. They only see first order problems rather than second, third etc. They stop at the surface. As such they end up applying a “bandaid to a sucking chest wound”.
I’ve spent the last number of years, right here on TTAG, trying to point this out. It doesn’t occur because people are stupid. It occurs because of the way they’ve been trained to look at the world.
The result is people who cannot put their fingers on the root problem and therefore can never address it. This causes psychological stress and makes them fairly easy to manipulate with the right “bumper sticker sloganeering” I have often decried. The proposed bumper-sticker solutions will not work, but then, they’re not meant to. They’re meant to increase the temperature in the room and make everyone in that room even more vulnerable to yet more manipulation.
This is how long-term propaganda strategies are designed to function. Yet people engaged in surface level analysis assume that they are highly resistant to such manipulation because they didn’t see an advertisement, drop everything, run out and buy Product X. This, in a nutshell, is the insidious nature of a long-term menticide strategy imposed on you from birth. And that strategy has been imposed on you from birth if you’re breathing today. It has been improved upon greatly using neuro and behavioral science in the last 100 or so years but it goes back to the 1800’s. No one alive grew up in a different system.
It is this instilled incapacity to go deep on this combined with a society of plenty in which nearly no one knows actual struggle or true terror, where no one actually struggles against death itself on a daily basis that creates the mental poison probably best summed up in four letters and a punctuation mark: TL;DR.
This is an enormous problem. The people who plague you often reach out from the grave with long pieces of detailed thought and instruction on these topics which your average person will not read because it’s so long. Hell, Marcuse basically told you what’s going on these days in an essay he wrote back in the 1960s which is often today called “Repressive Tolerance” but is really called “A Critique of Pure Tolerance” (a phrase he stole from Kant). That essay is over 150 pages long. An essay. Not a book. An essay.
How many supposedly educated people right here on TTAG have told me that Nietzsche was an atheist who wanted to kill God and wrote all about it? Several just recently, more over a few years. Yet not one of them has read the guy’s writings. How do I know that? Because the exact quote is naught by seven sentences and five of them bemoan the first two:
“God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?”
And if you won’t read seven sentences then how shall anyone inform you of how many of the current problems at large and with the 2A are a direct result of hyper-financialization which is itself inextricably linked to our desire for perpetual growth which leads back to a discussion of evolutionary psychology? How shall I offer the cure, similar to the way McD’s makes itself so profitable?
I can’t because at that point the multi-billion dollar answer is buried five or six layers deep and most people won’t go past scratching the first one. Will it take the complete collapse of the Western world for people to start paying attention? I fear it will.
The new question is now how your 2A rights are affected by international shipping but rather if you can even begin to understand that as of this writing Berlin is a vassal of Moscow and what the implications of that might be? Where will that impact the 2A?
Well, TL;DR. Obviously.
^^^ Wisdom.
TL;DR, pffft. strych9, keep writing.
“Well, TL;DR. Obviously.”
I did read it, and saved a copy.
Berlin a vassal of Russia over natural gas. What’s in their favor there is that their eyes are now wide-assed open over the true nature of Russia. Not just Putin, even though he is a current concern, the whole of Russia. Putin dropping dead just brings a potentially worse replacement…
I’d suggest that the schema to look at this is not “Putin” or “Germany”. It’s more of a question of centralization vs decentralization across a number of domains. The friction therein probably turns into a pretty nasty fight here based on currency allegiance, at least at first. IMHO, it’s unfortunate that this will lend more credence to the concept that “all wars are bankers’ wars” but it will and… well, it does.
I posit several things that add up to a mess.
That mess is a repolarization of the world back to a multipolar world and a restart of “the Great Game”. The transition is one that a great many old folks probably won’t survive because the transition is rough, they don’t see it and if they’re caught unawares many of the things they require to survive will be taken from them as globalism crashes and comes to a halt. The majority of them are unaware.
The short version is that the from where I sit the writing is on the wall that the EU is over. Germany is the lynchpin here, holding the Euro together. Italy’s debt for instance is something the ECB is buying by selling German bonds. When Germany goes that capacity is gone. Germany’s already gone, people just don’t see it yet.
Germany centralized it’s entire economy on electricity and centralized the production of that. Winter may wreck the country, and in fact, probably will. Germany at this point has a choice. It can be Western or it can be modern. It can’t be both. And, to boot, it’s run by people who are entirely out of touch with reality. Just check their Health Minister for an example.
Strange as it is to say, France probably ends up running the southern half of the EU with North Africa in its sphere of influence as a source of petroleum products.
The UK stays in the anglosphere and we all speak English together or something. This is based on the fact that since the fall of the USSR the US has moved away from a destroyer heavy Navy focused on patrol and to a more carrier based fleet for regional force projection. We have 14 carriers and the UK has two but no real support fleet. It’s a match made in saltwater.
But, like it or not, this force restructuring means global shipping is going to have issues when we’re not guaranteeing freedom of navigation because we don’t have the destroyers. No one else can come close to replacing us so… remember the pirates in Somalia? Expect that on a wider scale and having to be suppressed the same way (the UAE handles that area now, a regional game because we basically left it to them). This goes back to the same sorta idea as the 1800’s with spheres of influence and Navies running protection for their interests and no one else’s. It necessitates smaller, faster cargo ships. Supertankers… not so much. But that’s the end of the oil trade as we know it since the end of the War. Oof.
China is likewise fucked. It’s housing market is in freefall which means their economy is screwed. They’re dependent on two major food sources, rice and pork. They took a Zimbabwe approach to pork and at least half of that industry is now run by incompetent morons who’ve ended up destroying production. Rice requires stupid amounts of fertilizer that is potash heavy and they import 100% of that. They already have major shortages and their soil is some of the worse on the planet. No ships, no food, angry people.
China also faces a demographic collapse as a knock-on from Mao’s old policies. Retirees are projected to outnumber workers by 2030 and the population falls from 1.3 billion to 600-800 million by 2050. China’s time in “the sun” is over. Which sucks because they control so much of the world market in everything (hence that rough transition). But that’s the price of “pulling value forward”. China’s explosive growth was leveraging the future and the future is now.
On top of that Xi seems to be itching to externalize his problems with a war with Taiwan which, truth be told, Taiwan actually can win. And on top of that this time we do have a reason to get seriously involved because TSMCs investments in the US will take several more years to bear fruit and we need chips badly.
I don’t see the CCP lasting too much longer. Internal strife threatens war within the country. Just yesterday they responded to protests with another Covid lockdown.
So we’re about to get rocked by some serious trade issues for shit we need in the immediate. Tech, meds, fuel, chemstocks etc. Now, we can reshore that stuff. We have the resources and the demographics but that will take time and money that we don’t have. We also need to entirely retool our educational system to boot. You’re gonna need a lot of people with enough math skills to get a BS in things like Chemistry and you’re gonna need them fast.
Which leads back to currency and mindset. The issue is not various leaders, it’s completely different mindsets and a set of assumptions based on a world-order that is, quite obviously ending if you care to actually look. And, I’ll not make friends by stating the obvious, but the older folks simply don’t understand the current level of novelty or the risks/rewards that novelty offers. Some of that probably happens to every generation but this is fundamentally different IMHO because there’s some sort system pitting people against each other in the public and the people running the entire West are geriatric widwits who will not give up power and who are, mostly, corrupt. If you don’t think Twitter matters then you’re out of date, sorry, it’s true for a variety of reasons. Yeah, social media is poison and that’s the problem. But it’s also more powerful that corporations or government, so we better figure out how to tame this beast.
You can start to see the cracks appearing with people in the UK getting power bills that went from 5p/kwh to 95p/kwh in the last month. These will probably rise further, a lot further.
All of this leads to one place which is, in a word, “death”. Personal, national, local, fiscal, monetary and other forms of…. death. Flat-the-fuck out. This is a major shift that will cause an extinction of those who can’t change and change damn fast.
This is a “perfect storm” of credentialism fueled green nonsense, hyper-financialization, political polarization and a host of other issues mixed with the natural evolution of the world put on steroids by modern technology. None of which we’re actually preparing for. Churchill said that lies can get half way around the world before the truth gets its pants on, that was in the 1940’s. Now? Shit dude, the lie’s halfway to Alpha Centauri and the truth hasn’t even thought about pants yet.
I ruffled some feathers yesterday with a comment about Jesus and student loans but, strangely, no one who got ruffled asked what I meant and there’s no way they could possibly understand what I meant either because I really wasn’t very clear. Strange how some people prefer to tell you what you’re thinking rather than asking.
Anyone who’s older basically can’t understand what I meant unless they’re into some really esoteric shit. The student loan system is opaque to those not involved in it. Loans written as recently as 2003 are NOTHING like the ones written the next year in ’04. Half a dozen layers of “change and reform” to student loans, taken in sum, have created something that is flat-out fraud perpetrated on students, schools and taxpayers alike. It’s not a scam from the ground up but an emergent system that’s become a ponzi.
Government has everyone, the universities included, in a debt trap and is trying to figure out how to keep that scheme going. They’re not trying to help anyone other than themselves. If people actually realized how this works they’d be unbelievably angry and for good reason. But I’m supposed to believe that old folks who don’t realize their kids are being “transitioned” by the school system until Billy comes home with boobs or Sally comes home without boobs really know how student loans work post-Obama and Bush? Please, pull the other one. Bells and whatnot. And that’s to say nothing of the fact that the very kids getting shit on were propagandized from birth to “go to college” to “get a good job”. Yet that same system that told them that *conveniently* forgot to even offer the skills necessary to make use of a university system. Odd, huh?
And that particular system is but a singular example of retrograde systems running all over the place and coming apart without most people noticing. The media sure isn’t going to report on it. They’re too busy reporting on how the FBI either lied about Trump or committed the same crime he did by releasing photos of classified material they took from the guy. Oh, sorry, I mean on “how Trump’s going to prison [for sure this time!]”.
But, really, the funny part on all of this is that you can tell where people will shake out in their political position in terms of what’s coming with a few simple questions. Ask them if they prefer the central bank currencies or BTC/ETH.
The answer itself will tell you quite a bit about their personal philosophy. One can then dig a bit deeper and ask where those people see threats to their prefered system.
The first question will sort the realists from the blind and the second the totalitarians from those who love freedom. The people angrily proclaiming “Bitcoin is tulips!” may be right but they’re also the people who will shoot you in the face for a Social Security COLA. They’ll deny that now but push comes to shove… yeah.
The BTC hodler who starts talking about Monero style privacy protections… that person might be onto something.
I’ve said quite a few times that a huge number of Boomers are being marched into a woodchipper. I don’t say that with relish, it’s just a statement of fact. From a purely government “ledger” perspective, they represent a large liability and no real productive use. You paid into the system? It’s adorable that you think that matters. The people you’re dealing with are the type to take taxes from the Jews and then use that money to build the very facilities that will gas the people who paid the taxes. Think that’s not true? Read some history, or just watch what the White House has to say about Trump voters these days. That’s flat out “flee the country before it hits the fan” level shit. I have many people from overseas asking me when I’m leaving because they’ve seen this before in their own country.
And this here wall-o-text is just the surface. How ’bout dat power grid? $243 trillion in debt and unfunded liabilities? The grooming of autistic children (did you know that like 40% of trans kids are autistic?)? The open celebration of mental illness and the promotion of crime? How good’s that local water system? (LOL!) What’s going on in the oil market? What does inelasticity in that market mean if someone gets froggy and steals all those tankers sitting off the coast of Portugal, the ones the Chicoms and the Ruskies rented? Backing up Russian flows to the wells, what does that actually do? What sort of hardware are they running?
Some days I reflect a bit on the ending of a movie. At the end of Sicario Benicio del Toro’s character says the following:
You should move to a small town where the rule of law still exists. You will not survive here. You’re not a wolf and this is a land of wolves now.”
Now, all that said, are we doomed? Far from it. But a very hard set of choices approaches with a speed I don’t think most people recognize. Are we prepared to make the right ones and thread this needle? No. But we better get ready most ricky tick. Unless, of course, you’d like to die in abject poverty or live in a police state that would make Stalin blush.
no need to beat it to death…the guard is not trying to detain him…he’s asking him to leave…then prevents him from doing that…a contradiction in terms that seems inexplicable under the circumstances…a simple “get out of here and don’t come back” should suffice…if he does it’s defiant trespass…but that still doesn’t justify lethal force…and you never pepper spray someone when he’s in control of a vehicle….
Proves, once again, that there are those among us who should not even be allowed into a county where firearms are available.
However….
The Second Amendment is very, very clear (even a Texas Aggie can understand it)….it protects “we the people”, until “we” do something illegal, or irrational (stupid).
What an unmitigated disaster.
Leave those poor engineers alone.
[Wait, are they engineers who happen to be monetarily deprived, do they suck at their job… maybe both with one causing the other?]
“Wait, are they engineers who happen to be monetarily deprived,…”
Don’t think money is the issue. They all seem to have stickers in their car back windows touting that they possess ATM cards.
“Leave those poor engineers alone.”
‘Aggie’ usually implies a state university specializing in ‘Agriculture’.
Lots of fun to dump on the dumb hick aggies, until they hack a piece of equipment of yours and demonstrate what alternative geeks can do to embarrass you in front of someone you’re looking to ‘interface’ with… 🙂
This goes back to a previous conversation Sam and I had involving perceptions of a thermos.
It has been reported that some years ago, Texas A&M sent a team to NASA with a proposal to land a mobile probe on the Sun.
After the Aggies completed their presentation of the proposed mission, one of the NASA space scientists objected, saying, “You can’t land on the Sun; the temperature on the surface is 10,000 degrees”!
The Aggie team lead responded, “We plan to make a night landing.”
“We plan to make a night landing.”
*chuckle*… 😉
Cool video.
Way to go Security OFFICER. 👍
He certainly looks like Paul Blart, Mall Cop to me. Unless Nelson had previously been banned from the property for some offense such as trespassing, the Mall Cop seems to have minimal justification to demand that he leave. It also appears to me that Nelson was attempting to remove himself from the situation created by the crazed Mall Cop rather than assault him.
Finally, I am amazed that the Portland Police Bureau didn’t respond by hiring the Mall Cop rather than aresting him. This is the trigger happy department that should have instituted a program a few decades ago to distribute Kevlar condoms to their officers so that they could practice safe shotgun sex after Seargent Gomes wounded his wife in an obscenely brutal manner. Gomes claimed that he had innocently neglected to unload his 12 gauge before “playing around with it.”. Responding officers found the nude woman on the bed with a singular entry wound “in the area of the right buttocks.”. Although the neighbors heard the couple arguing then screaming, they did not hear the gunshot.
“Although the neighbors heard the couple arguing then screaming, they did not hear the gunshot.”
Was she an ‘ample’ woman?
Wink-wink, nudge-nudge… 🙂
Security guards working for a business generally have full trespass authority and can order someone to leave for any reason whatsoever as long as that reason is not a protected class issue. Private business, and all that.
Making someone leave is a different story. Attempting to DETAIN someone is an even more different story.
This is a good video on the use of de-de-escalation techniques.
I wasn’t there. Like to hear from those that were.
You trust what people say in a context like this?
What am I missing? The KATU artic,article, didn’t say why he was a trespasser.
If i was to guess, it would come from theft or some kind of social misconduct (lechery?, stalking?,).
This security guards conduct notwithstanding, what pegged the guy for removal as a trespasser. I’m guessing we will here more about that if the trial is covered.
His best legal defense strategy is to prove the driver was white and a MAGA supporter, then any action is inherently self defense. Or so it would be viewed in Oregon.
The killer looked white to me. More of that white on white violence. They’re both white. Does that mean it didn’t happen?
“They’re both white. Does that mean it didn’t happen?”
That’s just their ‘culture’… 🙁
Does that mean it didn’t happen
That is correct… White on white AND no AR involved, it was a non-story from the git…
Dude only had how long to get the hell out of the guys way? Also, why would he put himself between two cars to pepper spray the guy?
Him being all “call the authorities now” should have been what he did in the first place. Yeah he’s a security guard but if he wanted the guy to leave, he’s not going to be able to arrest them. An actual LEO is.
Also, if he would have gotten out of their way he could have left. The car doesn’t seem in their way in the video, but his fat rear sure is.
I used to go to various sites that had security at them. Now and again I’d get stuck waiting for an escort and talk to them. Typically they were there to “monitor and report” not actually apprehend anyone. Actually had a few with zero interest in a gun, it didn’t pay any more and they felt it wasn’t worth the risk.
That said, some context of these two would be interesting I suspect. Unless he has it on camera where that guy flat out threatened to kill him I’m thinking this will end in negligent homicide charges. It’s just way too sloppy/angry not to.
He’s gonna find out just how well the “You are not respecting my AUTHORITAH!” defense strategy works…
or doesn’t.
Pretty clear this guy is going to jail and that all the companies involved are going to have to hope that their insurance coverage is solid.
I suspect Lowes is going to figure out that having stores in high crime areas isn’t worth what it is costing them. Realistically, if you have to hire armed guards to avoid being cleaned out there are better places to do business; this is a lesson that most retail establishments in San Francisco have already learned.
Total idiot.
With any confrontation……
1) Be kind.
2) De-escalate.
3) Disengage.
4) NEVER corner an adversary so they have no other option but to go THRU you to escape.
5) NEVER jump on the escalation of force ladder.
EX: Pepper spray someone you have cornered/blocked in (bonus points if you do this to someone who has a loved one with them 🤪), causing them to panic and attack you directly (YOU cause them to switch from flight to fight), then shooting them because of the deadly threat they posed to you.
That’s a textbook example of ‘escalation’.
Avoid provocation of the adversary to using deadly force.
But if they do? Neutralize the threat, and own your actions.
@
“Well, TL;DR. Obviously.”
Zackly. I don’t come here to be tutored, educated, enlightened. I come here to spout slogans into the echo chamber. Everyone needs a gun, but no one needs to understand the world around them; TLDR.
CORCY:
@strych9
“Well, TL;DR. Obviously.”
Zackly. I don’t come here to be tutored, educated, enlightened. I come here to spout slogans into the echo chamber. Everyone needs a gun, but no one needs to understand the world around them; TLDR.
@strych9
“This goes back to a previous conversation Sam and I had involving perceptions of a thermos.”
Those were good times. They were golden
Perhaps the other inmates will put him five-by-five by the time he gets out (if he ever gets out)
Most private security hire the lowest denominator, usually at malls and hospitals. It’s about having a warm body there and thats about it. Little or no training, Lacking social skills and maturity. Almost minimum wage, no benefits. These companies charge the contracting businesses big bucks and supply second rate security.
Now some professinal security companies hire retired police officers, this signifacantly reduces liability. It also saves significant training time and expense. I know one retired cop that worked night security for a Seattle tech company and was making $500.00 a day. Good for him.
then there’s the case of a local supermarket that hired off-duty cops but had to terminate the arrangement because steaks kept disappearing out the back door on the night shift…usually seen departing in the back seat of a patrol car of an on-duty cop…it happens…
Oregon State Law is excellent. The formula is as follows: ORS 163.115 = life in prison.
Logan Bimbel deserves life in prison, unless he can bring that man back to life. Cornerstone should be forced to pay $25,000,000.
Gimbel is too stupid to comprehend how to “Observe and Report”, call 911 and report with evidence. Gimbel should might lose his addiction to oxygen upon leaving prison, should the victim’s loved ones become upset and seek vengeance. Not good but a possibility.
always told my people to pretend that gun is glued in your holster…much safer for all concerned that way…
your threats are not helping…. and this guy was protecting his own life….. so yeah….. you leftist scum who run this site need to stay away from the Starbucks latte and get out of your life behind the keyboard….. be a man….. and get a brain….
buncha lame, keyboard- living behind, pastey skinned trolls….
buncha lame, keyboard- living behind, pastey skinned trolls…
Sounds like you are intimately familiar with the species, perhaps you could benefit from your own advice as self-awareness is an important step toward recovery. You sound like a special dacian/albert level of moron, so you have a LOT of work ahead of you. Welcome to the clown show I’m sure you will be just as entertaining as they are…
I sent a link to this video and the newspaper article to my daughters temple. She asked me back in January if I would be interested in helping provide security as they had several; vandalism and other incidents over the past year. I explained then that unarmed volunteers would be OK but armed could expose them to liability if they were not off duty LEO.
I know they have volunteers who patrol the parking lot and property and several carry none of which are LEO. We do live in a more gun friendly state but I suspect this idiot would not fare much better here.
that gun is there to protect your life…or the life of others…period….
exactly you woke freak…..
so that means WHEN SOMEONE IS RUNNING YOU DOWN WITH A VEHICLE YOU GET TO PROTECT YOUR LIFE….. FOOL
WELL HE WAS NOT EASTWOOD ,,
WHAT DID CLINT SAY ” MAN NEEDS TO KNOW HIS LIMITATION
SOMETHING LIKE THAT ,, ANYWAY WAS DUMB MOVE ON SECURITY GUARD PART ..
PRAYERS NEEDED ALL AROUND …
Is there capitol punishment in the state where this happens?
That guy deserves to fry.
he needs to go someplace where the guards will be watching him…and he probably will….
Good shoot…..too bad this country, and obviously it’s inhabitants are all becoming cucked and woke…..
YOU ARE ALL FORGETTING THE CROOKS HAD BEEN TRESPASSED AND NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE…. AND DEFINITELY NOT THERE HARASSING SECURITY..
GOOD SHOOT!!!
Idiot troll!
Cornerstone Security Group is a neo-nazi organisation. Seriously their “management” has nazi symbolism tattooed all over their bodies.
Why do these guys think it makes them a man to wear camo and tacticool stuff?
No hobbies other than guns, knives. Doubt any mrtial arts though by the looks of them.
Read a book rent-a-cop.