A fully-automatic weapon is excellent for laying down suppressive fire. Unleashing a stream of lead at your opponent keeps them pinned down—so your homies can flank the enemy and dispatch them. Suppressive fire distracts the enemy so you can lob-in some $500 grenades or call-in a $400k airstrike. A fully automatic weapon isn’t much use for civilian self-defense, where threats are best dispatched one carefully placed bullet at a time. Or in small bursts. But full-auto does have some advantages. Nothing helps the non-military ammunition industry more than a gun that burns a box of bullets in seconds. Also machine guns are fun! And third, they’re illegal (without going through paperwork hell and paying Mercedes E-Class money). The appeal of forbidden fruit. But now you, yes you, can buy a machine gun! Well near-as-dammit . . .
Slide Fire Solutions is a privately held company based in Moran, Texas and owns all rights in its ground breaking “slide stock” technology. Building on principles of “bump firing,” Slide Fire’s invention allows a shooter to discharge a firearm such as an AR-15 or AK-47 as quickly as desired, without springs and without automatically functioning mechanical parts. The exclusive design offers many hours of entertainment for recreational shooters. The Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms has concluded that the Slide Fire device is not regulated as a firearm under the Gun Control Act or the National Firearms Act.
And there you have it: a machine gun that’s not a machine gun. It’s a semi-automatic firearm that uses recoil management to create a really fast firing semi-automatic rifle. How great is that?
If you want it, here it is, go and get it. Because the ATF is notorious for, well, all kinds of evil shit. And they’ve been known to ban stuff they’ve approved, heaping enormous fines and yes jail sentences on anyone stupid enough to think that a federal agency can’t act like a teenage girl and change its mind for capricious reasons devised after a decision.
Remembering that the ATF runs Special Response Teams that’re better funded than the Church of Latter Day Saints. A federal fighting force with more no-knock toys than the most second-tier third world countries. Waco? Ruby Ridge? That kind of thing.
The Rabbi has one of these Cha-Cha Slide Fire devices. With his permission and my ammo, we’ll test it next week—at a range that allows rapid fire. A freedom curiously absent from 90% of New England firing ranges. Go figure.
a range that allows rapid fire. A freedom curiously absent from 90% of New England firing ranges. Go figure.
Not totally surprising. A couple of those in my general area.
One of the benefits of living 11 miles up a holler is you can shoot whatever you damn well please in your back yard.
In New Hampshire there is a place called the Manchester Firing Line that allows you to rent fully automatic machine guns.
They even offer belt-fed and crew served machine guns if your willing to pay big-bucks to try them out.
It was worth it to me, being a civilian you don’t get too many chances to fire full-auto guns and I thought it was great fun and if you able to afford it just for the experience.
Hm. Their rates are actually quite reasonable. $150 for belt-fed is cheaper than my usual range in PA.
Mr. Lion, Where do you go in PA?
Spy, I’ve been to MFL (not their new location yet), great people there and some awesome hiking and camping close by. http://www.gunsnh.com/ for anyone who wants to check them out.
There is no way in hell that gun will ever stay legal.
It’s not a gun, Phil.
I’m not talking about the mechanism, I’m talking about the gun you end up with after installing the mechanism. A Ruger .22 semi-automatic rifle is legal. Cut down the barrel and the stock and play with the sear, and that same rifle is no longer legal. If it looks like an automatic weapon, sounds like an automatic weapon, and has nearly the same rate of fire as an automatic weapon, it’s an automatic weapon.
Not according to the law, Phil.
Well, I am by no stretch a lawyer, so I defer to your expertise. In my experience, those in authority tend to be able to make the law do what they want it to, given enough time and phrases.
Not a lawyer either (Ralph is) but according to the definition of a machine gun in United States Code this isn’t a machine gun. The user’s finger presses the trigger for each shot. It just takes advantage of physics to allow you to press the trigger faster than you normally would be able to and still see the sights.
They can always change USC and decide this is a machine gun, but it only fires one round with every pull of the trigger, therefore, not a machine gun.
Phil, one of the important things about this is it is not a permanent modification. Really it’s just an adjustable AR stock that doesn’t lock into place and has a built in grip. What happens is you pull the gun forward with your non firing hand, the recoil from the shot pulls the gun back, resets the trigger and your pulling forward pulls the trigger into your finger. Repeat as nesicary.
To return to “normal” operation slide it off the buffer tube and put your preferred grip and stock back on. They have some good info on their site and even the from the ATF about it. I have yet to see one in the wild but this device seems like it has the best legal leg to stand on IMO.
I’m old enough to remember the Street Sweeper. Except that was just reclassified as a destructive device. Production isn’t banned on those. Production of new machineguns is. If this thing gets reclassified, and you’ve got one sitting in the back of your gun safe after the thrill of spending money wears off, and you don’t happen to be reading the news, you could easily become a federal felon and not even know it.
Actually, it doesn’t work like that. Check out Article 1, Section 9 of the U.S. Constitution.
Mikey is going to need to put on a pair of fresh clean panties after he reads about this new technology that allows semi autos to be converted to near full autos. Just think about all those millions of ‘assault weapons’ now being even more potent.
Classic example of “feeding the troll”.
Complain to the management for letting a troll into the dining room.
This + AR15+ .22 conversion = Day of full auto fun that I could theoretically afford!
Hate to burst your bubble, but I doubt the SlideFire will work with a .22 round.
+1 The slide fire needs recoil to work.
Check Darren’s comment bellow, seems 9mm upper works. Not as cheap as .22, but close enough.
They do work with .22 ammo. I know a guy who has an AR, an AK, and an AR with a .22 conversion and he has bump-stocks on all of them. They work amazingly well. As soon as I can afford one for my AR, I’ll be rockin’.
Tried one of those out on Christmas day- it was a lot of fun! I let everybody else go first, since I’ve had the full auto experience before. The guy in the video has had a lot of practice- he’s really got that thing under control.
my brother in-law bought one for himself this past christmas (thanks santa) it won’t work with a 22 cal conversion (and yes we tried different brands of ammo) to be honest with you after firing a few clips you get your “rocks” off and you convert it back to a semi stock like he did and the slide fire stock just sits in his safe collecting dust cool …yes….pratical …i don’t think so
Apparently it does work with 9mm uppers as well as .45 ACP and .40 S&W.
Not nearly as cheap as a .22LR but a bit cheaper than .223.
And yes, I can see where the fun would wear off. But given that it is in essence a “loose” collapsible stock with a “poorly designed” finger rest that results in rapid semi-automatic fire when pulled forward, it is difficult to see where it could be classified as a machinegun. The only moving parts are moved *by the shooter* to initiate every shot. The definition of a machinegun is:
“..more than one shot, without manual reloading, with a single pull of the trigger.”
An AR-15 or AK-47 with a SFS stock fires once, every time you pull the trigger. No more and no less (magazine capacity and weapon function notwithstanding on the latter).
And yes, I know that the BATFE has called a shoestring a machinegun in the past. So do the Slilde-Fire people. There are cracks in the law in places, and this appears to exploit one of those cracks. The Adams Accelerator had moving parts, nothing on this doohickey moves of its own volition.
That and if they come pick it up you’re out $350. A lot worse than being out several thousands of dollars for a registered full-auto weapon.
“The Adams Accelerator had moving parts, nothing on this doohickey moves of its own volition.”
It was Akins, not Adams. They both have moving parts, the old one had a spring, the new one does not.
Thanks for the correction.
Not much on the SFS stock moves. The rifle moves in the stock. The only real movable part is the lock that engages the buffer tube or not.
“A fully automatic weapon isn’t much use for civilian self-defense, where threats are best dispatched one carefully placed bullet at a time. Or in small bursts.”
The problem is that there is no legal difference between a machinegun configured for full-auto and one configured for burst and no full auto — a machinegun is a machinegun is a machinegun. The defining quality is being able to fire more than once with a single pull of the trigger (by design or malfunction).
Honestly, the defensive utility of any machinegun is highly dependant upon training; without training and practice you’re unlikely to do anything but spray and pray, whilst with proper training and practice, a machinegun can be highly effective.
… a range that allows rapid fire. A freedom curiously absent from 90% of New England firing ranges. …
Pennsylvania too. Because one person on the line firing three rounds a second is much more dangerous than three people firing one round a second. Or so goes the reasoning at my local club.
I’ve seen a bunch of videos of these stocks in action. I’m eagerly awaiting this review to find out the real deal.
About the range rule on rapid fire – I’ve seen a guy let loose with a pistol rapid fire at a range one day. The first two rounds went somewhere in the direction of the target, the next 3 or 4 went pretty much straight up, several went into the ground about 5 foot out from where we were standing, several more went left and right. I didn’t see the last several shots from where I hunkered down, but once he ran empty he was escorted from the firing line by two range officers.
Yeah, that rule is there for a reason. My range will, after a discussion and demostration of expertise, allow limited rapid fire in one area. Well supervised.
I can’t count RPM for this from the video, but it sure looks fast, wow! Anybody know the cyclic rate?
Something like 650rpm, I have read elsewhere.
I have also read that 600rpm is pretty much the sweet spot for control in FA fire, but I don’t have enough trigger time with FA stuff to have a personal opinion. Native FA fire rate in the AR-15/M-16 class is supposed to vary based on buffer tube and gas tube length but is somewhere in the 700-950 range.
In light of the ATF ruling on the Akins Accelerator, the fact they approved this is baffling:
The fact that you think the BATFE’s prior approval means that it’s not going to be declared illegal in some arbitrary ruling or that the manufactures won’t be prosecuted is what’s baffling.
They’re designed by the same guy. The Akins Accelerator stock was never banned, the spring inside it was. The ATF sent letters to owners telling them to mail back the springs, everyone got to keep their stocks. The difference between them is that one has springs, the other does not. The ruling you posted addresses other devices that also have springs.
Slide-Fire was designed by someone other than Bill Akins. Akins says he is working out a patent agreement with Slide Fire because he believes it infringes on his patent that covers using various forces including “human isometric tension” to enable bump-firing, but he does not claim to have designed it.
In short: Akins says he has a patent on this, wants the Slide-Fire folks to pay him to avoid a patent infringement suit, but not that he designed it. Bill Akins himself comments in this thread:
Akins originally sent a defective / prototype model to the ATF to evaluate. They approved it because, well it was defective and didn’t work, and thus not a machine gun. Then they started production and shipped out non-defective stocks. When the ATF eventually was asked to evaluate one of the working stocks, they said that it shouldn’t have been approved and revoked the prior ruling.
The ATF and Akins were at fault, in my opinion more fault falling on the ATF.
As for the slide fire stock itself, it works as advertised and is probably the coolest thing I’ve tried regarding guns. I’ve never shot a F/A but this thing is quite the innovative invention. The price is expensive but the newer models are falling in price.
Looks like I was wrong. Dunno where I read that.
The patent thing is probably the confusing issue. Atkins claims to have the patent on it but this particular device was invented by someone else. The inventor of the Slide-Fire is an AF vet named Jeremiah Cottle.
This article is late by a couple of years. You guys are going over the intricacies and minutiae of the law and possible implications, etc. The Internet has had over 2 years to debate this all out. It’s legal. Unless the ATF acts like the teenage girl all it’s officers are and changes it’s mind. But then again, the ATF is an unconstitutional agency, so fuck them.
If a gun fires more than one bullet with one trigger press, it’s a machine gun. If a gun can fire really, really fast, it’s not a machine gun unless it meets the prior definition. That’s the ATF’s own rule, for now. It’s also logical.
Jerry Miculek can fire a revolver really, really fast. His record is eight rounds in one second, with every round on target. Should revolvers be banned?
Can’t wait for the ATF letter asking Jerry to mail in the trigger finger of his right hand.
He probably paid for the tax stamp already. The finger was created before 1986.
So, Jerry should give ATF the finger.
Pfft. This device is what it is. Another way to have fun apparently. You don’t have to buy one. Does this device gets ton ATF’s nerves? Sure. Could they reclassify it? maybe, but I doubt it. Since no moving part actually assists in the tripping of the trigger, as in the Akins device, it would take some very creative writing. (no, I don’t put it above them). And the Akins was killed early on, and the SFS has been around a while now.
You say machine guns are illegal without a mountain of paperwork and money, which is true. But the only legal ones are those registered before 1986, a limited supply. You could pay $20K-$30K for one. You also need your local police chief or sheriff to sign your paperwork so even that limited supply is limited to only some people in only some parts of the country. This was the price paid for the 1986 Volkner/McClure Act (gun owners right to travel) but given how that law is ignored in NY, NJ, MA and other places, it wasn’t worth it.All those thousands upon thousands of $800 machine guns made after 1986 that only government guys and gals get to play with are off limits to the average joe, even if he could afford the ammo. 18 U.S.C. 922 (o).
“You also need your local police chief or sheriff to sign your paperwork so even that limited supply is limited to only some people in only some parts of the country.”
Except that the ATF allows a second way where you can create a trust and purchase it on behalf of the trust, thus bypassing any dick police chief’s / sheriff’s. 100% legit.
The Slide Fire is simply a mechanical aid for the developmentally challenged who find Bump Fire just a bit too demanding. A good trigger (i.e a Geissele Super-Dynamic 3G) is a much better solution if your problem is a compulsive desire to run out of 5.56 cartridges. The SF will end up in the attic next to your roller blades soon enough once the excitement changes to the realization that having one of these on your excellent carbine announces that you totally missed the YouTube bump fire instructions, or couldn’t follow them. That doesn’t mean I don’t want one….
These things were the Belle Of The Ball at the SHOT show range day, and we could hear their racket all day. The line was pretty long to shoot them, and we all had better things to do. it looks like fun, at least for a few minutes. $300 can get you a lot of ammo, a tolerable red dot, or even a Ruger LC9, though…
i shot an ak yesterday with one of these, it is extremely fun. i want one.
What about electronic solutions? Has anybody ever looked into the legality of that?
I’ve often thought about using a small solenoid to actuate the trigger of a rifle. With the right electronic driver and a small battery pack, it could be made to fire a semi-auto rifle at or near the weapon’s designed cyclic rate.
The ATF wont allow semi auto electrically primed guns because of how easy they would be convert to full auto. So I doubt they would allow a solenoid, especially because this gets around the law by requiring your finger to actuate the trigger.
Basically until someone does something stupid enough with one of these to get the mainstreams attention they will be legal. Once the nightly news starts talking about an “only $300 part that makes a fully automatic assault weapon” people who don’t know what it’s called or what it does will start the ball rolling to change the ruling.
This stuff has been around since the early 90s.
that thing is awesome, sign me up for one!
never underestimate the powers of a free market/free society: a genuine work-around for the “no machine guns allowed” he-man-women-haters club…
Looks fun if you can afford to pay to play. I don’t want to spend $3oo on a novelty item, and I damn sure don’t want to spend what it would cost in ammo expenses to become competent using it.
M67 Fragmentary Grenade (G881) $42.68.
I’m told these are illegal in Kalifornia, even though both Bumpski and SlidFire appear to be willing to sell them to us.
One of our many ambiguous laws which cover anything which might be construed as fun:
16930. As used in this part, a “multiburst trigger activator”
means either of the following:
(a) A device designed or redesigned to be attached to a
semiautomatic firearm, which allows the firearm to discharge two
or more shots in a burst by activating the device.
(b) A manual or power-driven trigger activating device
constructed and designed so that when attached to a semiautomatic
firearm it increases the rate of fire of that firearm.
it might be legal for you in kali, as this uses your finger to manipulate it you could argue it though the court case would likely get to much press to keep them legial in the US at all. all these devices are is a stock with a pistole grip thrown in that bounces your finger back and forth as you hold your finger still it moves your finger for you. and its activated by a TRIGGER pull not a switch or twist of a knob or anything else.
Forget about ATF the future of the bumpfire stock will be decided in court
With Notice of Patent and Trademark Infringement letter starting surface across the country the future of the BUMPFIRE stock will be decided in Federal Court and it will have nothing to do with ATF.
Fostech Outdoors, LLC
v. Slide Fire Solutions, Inc.
Complaint for Patent Infringement
Civil Action No. 1:12-cv-00289-WTL-DML, the Hon. William T. Lawrence presiding.
Filed on March 5, 2012 in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Indiana;
Indianapolis, IN- Patent attorneys for Fostech Outdoors, LLC of Paris Crossing, Indiana filed a patent infringement suit in the Southern District of Indiana alleging Slide Fire Solutions, Inc. of Moran, Texas infringed patent no. 6101918, METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR ACCELERATING THE CYCLIC FIRING RATE OF A SEMI-AUTOMATIC FIREARM, which has been issued by the US Patent Office.
The patented technology is described as “bump fire stocks” which are a device that, when attached to certain firearms, allows the firearm to rapidly fire multiple shots. The complaint alleges that Slide makes, imports, and/or sells a product called “SSAR-15 stock” that infringes the ‘918 patent “when used in conjunction with certain firearms assemblies.” The complaint alleges that Slide actively induces other to infringe the Fostech’s patent and that Slide should be liable for contributory infringement because it knows there are no non-infringing uses for its product. The complaint makes one claim of patent infringement and seeks an injunction, damages, costs and attorney fees.
Practice Tip: The plaintiff here has made a claim of contributory patent infringement, which governed by 35 U.S.C. § 271(b) and is defined as selling or importing a device “for use in practicing a patented process, constituting a material part of the invention, knowing the same to be especially made or especially adapted for use in an infringement of such patent, and not a staple article or commodity of commerce suitable for substantial noninfringing use”
Personal jurisdiction may be an issue in this case. The plaintiff alleges Slide regularly conducts business in Indiana and the events giving rise to the suit occurred in Indiana. However, none of the specific acts of infringement seem to have occurred in Indiana.
This case has been assigned to Judge William T. Lawrence and Magistrate Judge Debra McVicker Lynch in the Southern District of Indiana and assigned Case No. 1:12-cv-00289-WTL-DML
Further Information about the case is as follows:
FOSTECH OUTDOORS, LLC v. SLIDE FIRE SOLUTIONS, INC.
Assigned to: Judge William T. Lawrence
Referred to: Magistrate Judge Debra McVicker Lynch
Cause: 35:145 Patent Infringement
Case #: 1:12-cv-00289-WTL-DML
Complaint-Fostech, LLC v Sliding Fire Solutions, Inc.
Couldn’t this be buried in the woods in a PVC pipe or an ammo can? Then you’re not “in posession” of the thing. Further, how could they get your name if you paid cash for it?
Slide Fire sells an SW M&P 15-22 that is modified to work directly on their website