George Bush’s Transportation Security Administration (TSA) is a farce. The idea that Uncle Sam’s blue shirted shock troops could prevent anyone, ever, from getting any kind of weapon on board a commercial aircraft is dangerously naive. As the stats (that we know about) and anecdotes (that we know about) reveal. The idea that the TSA should even try to create an airborne gun-free zone is similarly absurd. The 2,977 victims of 9/11 should have been sufficient to establish the need maintain our Second Amendment rights aboard aircraft. The Congressman’s call for better training for TSA gropers is a great landing at the wrong airport. Can we ever un-ring the TSA’s bloated bell? No harm trying.
I am confused. How is this possible? I thought all government programs were perfect. I thought all government employees were perfect. This is one of the biggest shocks of my life.
/end_sarcasm
LMAO I just spewed soda all over my desk!!!
Calling them “shock troops” makes one sound like a paranoid black helicopter type. The only thing shocking about most TSA employees is how fat and stupid they are.
I agree that there is no fail safe system…but we are better off trying to implement as much security in air travel as possible. Also, do you really suggest there are no places that should be gun free?? Do you really think it’s a good idea to allow concealed carry on airplanes??? I for one predict more air jackings and pandemonium if that were the case. A better solution perhaps…increase the price of air travel for all and put an armed guard in front and back of each plane. I for one prefer not to sit on a plane with 30 armed (and possibly nutty) citizens. The chance for accidents would skyrocket
Blood in the streets! I mean, in the air!
Seriously, concealed carry license holders are vetted for criminal records. They’re finger-printed. They’re registered. What’s your concern?
Oh wait! What about the Constitutional Carry states like Vermont? Hmmmm. How could we POSSIBLY trust average American citizens not to shoot someone? They might even shoot, I dunno, a hijacker.
Meanwhile, what about busses, trains and cruise ships? (Achille Lauro anyone?) Is nowhere safe from gun wielding killers?
Short answer: no. Which is why law-abiding Americans should be able to exercise their Constitutionally protected right on these forms of transportation.
That said, aside from government run railways, the conveyances are owned by private companies. Why not let them decide for themselves and let the free market sort it out? And Darwin, of course.
One correction RF. It ain’t Bush’s TSA. It’s been barry’s for near 4 years now. Along with the patriot act and the atf and gitmo.
Totally agree with your assessment of the TSA. I am a frequent traveler and deal with these people every week……that said I disagree with firearms being allowed on an aircraft. That suggestion in my mind is absolutely foolish. The last thing we need is to open the door for terrorists to bring weapons on an aircraft. Not to mention, I don’t want to be on a plane with an armed individual who just loaded up in the sky club and had a few on the plane prior to takeoff. (It would happen) Reality is air travel is stressful and tends to bring the worst ou in people. Short fuses from stress, alcohol and guns simply dont mix.
That is just about the most moronic thing I’ve ever read.
Yes, we are better off with armed citizens than a couple of “pros” in the cabin.First,these guys are dead on their feet because they can’t sleep, read, or even watch the movie. They’re chronically bored(can’t talk to others) and or sick. All 20 or so LEOs who left our local PD for Sky Marshall big bucks were back in 6 months.
Second, I’m not afraid of my CCW fellow travellers. As a group, they are the most law-abiding,sensible portion of our nation. They commit fewer crimes than off-duty cops! Think of the “air-defense” schools that would spring up! I’d gladly take one.
Finally,we should put sceening responsibility back on the airlines(they don’t want to get sued) and institute Israeli profiling methods.
Lets back this train up a bit.Fancy slogans and invasive searches aside, the core purpose of the TSA isn’t to secure the skies of America.
Rather, the TSA was formed to save the airline industry. The aviation business wasn’t the most profitable *before* 9/11. Afterward the sheeple were far too scared to fly without some form of “beefed up security”. Truly beefing up security would mean arming passengers, but good luck selling tickets for that flight to customers from California and Massachusetts. Remember that travelers from New Jersey and Illinois buy plane tickets too-and the airlines need their revenue stream to stay in business.The idea of arming pilots became a national controversy and they’re the guys trusted the fly the doggone plane.
Thus, the sheeple who jet set across the country feel better about buying plane tickets precisely *because* they’re being poked and prodded through “airport security”. A truly secure flight in the form of armed passengers and pilots scares the sh!t out of the liberal jet setters, who will take their money elsewhere. I can see the editorials now : “OMG American Airlines just lets any country redneck with gun on a flight! AAAH! I had a layover in Austin and SAW A GLOCK!”
Well, GLOCKs are pretty ugly.
+1
The only thing George W Bush ever said that I agreed with was that creating a new, massive government bureaucracy in the wake of 9-11 would be a short sighted mistake.
Then he went and changed his mind, leaving me with a perfect record and the country saddled with gate-raping thugs.
My only concern with having, say, even 20% of the Passengers on a Flight armed is that should a situation come to multiple people drawing and shooting in a Plane. It, apparently, only takes one or two shots going into and through the windows and walls of the fuselage to seriously compromise the airworthiness of said Plane. Please correct me if I am wrong.
TSA has turned-out to be a farce and apparent refuge for thieves and incompetents, but the Government won’t disband it owing to the impact it would have on the Unemployment Rate, nor will they “fix” it because it would cost too much.
The depressurization danger is exaggerated. Its not good having a pressure leak at altitude, but absent defects in the airframe a .45 ACP hole in the side of an aircraft won’t cause it to blow apart in midair. The pilots will descend to 10,000 feet to compensate for the pressure and seek an emergency landing site, which ought to be happening anyway as there’s gunfire in the cabin.
Modern airliners are designed to handle a lot more stresses than what a handgun can inflict, and with redundant control systems the odds of a stray bullet bringing down the flight are astronomical. There’s a greater chance of a firing pin safety handgun spontaneously firing in the holster.
Speaking of negligent discharges, considering the typical LEO is closer to former DEA agent Lee Paige than David Sevigny in firearms competence & training I personally would feel safer if anyone BUT police were allowed to bring a gun on a plane. There is no room for “I’m the only one professional enough to carry a Glock on an airplan-BOOM” at 36,000 feet.
Mythbusters tested this.
It takes a LOT more than a handgun to damage a plane.
http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2004/01/mythbusters_explosive_decompre.html
Thanks for the information. ST. I decided to put that question out there because I wasn’t sure and just to clarify for the general discussion.
My other concern, also raised by Ralph below, would be about dangers to “innocent people”, but I think it’s a foregone conclusion as an “acceptable risk”…harsh to flatly state…but better an “innocent” or two gets shot (possibly killed)than the whole Planeload of Passengers and Crew killed in a crash…we all know the survival rate in Plane crashes is not a good thing to bank on.
The TSA is a massive waste of our tax dollars in the first place. Now they want to have a “massive overhaul” of the organization? Quit while you can still climb out of the hole you have dug. Disban the TSA and allow airlines to handle their own security.
Gun on planes is a bad idea. No, I’m not worried about a random shot depressurizing the aircraft. That’s a myth. But due to the claustrophobically close quarters, I am concerned about a shot overpenetrating the bad guy and depressurizing me.
The Ghost Warriors of the TSA (who I have generally found to be both polite and professional — so far) are not going to catch every threat, just as my local fire department isn’t going to be able to put out every fire or rescue every person stranded in a burning building. That doesn’t mean we should get rid of our firefighters.
Huge changes are needed at TSA. Huge. The Israelis know how to screen, and we should draw some lessons about safety from what they do. But guns on airplanes? Think of the guy who shot next to you at the range. You know, the one who couldn’t hit sh!t from five feet. Do you want him carrying on a crowded plane? Do you want to be downrange of that guy?
Unless every armed passenger is loading up with frangibles, no alcohol is served on the flight (no exceptions) and each armed passenger proves that he or she is highly range qualified in a realistic simulated environment where the bad guys are twelve inches from the good guys, I’ll pass. It’s just a bad idea.
+1 Ralph.
To quote Starbuck from nuBSG :your plan sucks.
If a situation arises that an ordinary passenger -your strawman who can’t hit anything – has to clear holster it means the safety of the aircraft and all aboard is already in grave. danger.As such a stray round is the least of your concerns.Note that you share range and public space already with these unskilled yahoos. Some of those unskilled louts you speak of are POST certified LEOs .
If a situation arises that an ordinary passenger -your strawman who can’t hit anything – has to clear holster it means the safety of the aircraft and all aboard is already in grave danger.
Says who? The yahoo who can’t hit sh!t and just spent two hours at the airport “lounge” sucking down martinis? Pass, pass and pass again.
You carry your gun to protect you, not to play John McLain and try rescue the crew and passengers. Which you can’t do. If you really want to make aircraft highjack-proof, issue every passenger a Louisville Slugger.
There are millions of CWPs issued in America.We can safely assume more than a few thousand of them are held by idiots.Yet your trepidation regarding your neighbor’s marksmanship seems confined to the interior of an aircraft.If American society hasn’t imploded because of people in shall issue states being shot left and right by morons,who’s to say your claim is valid that it would happen in an airliner cabin? You can no more idiot proof gun handling than you can stop the sun from rising:the police and military community stands as proof .As such,your ideas represents a well meaning but incorrect plan.I believe the risk of dying from an ND in an aircraft cabin of CCW’ers is far less then the risks we all assume just getting in our cars.
What about when the hi jackers aren’t around and some dimwit manages an AD in a tight packed airliner. He probably won’t bring the airliner down but what if You’re the one that catches the stray slug in the back of the head?
” The Israelis know how to screen, and we should draw some lessons about safety from what they do.”
+1000. When I flew back from a trip to Spain five years ago security was a breeze. They, like Israel, have smart profiling down to a science and it works. Molesting toddlers and WWII vets in the name of “cultural and ethnic sensitivity” is a joke, but good luck seeing anything close to profiling done here without a three hour special on CNN.
I’m not so sure I would WANT to carry on an airplane. I’m not exactly a big guy, but I’ve been uncomfortably crushed by more than a few narrow seats on regional planes; I can’t imagine having a gun jammed into my side for several hours as well.
I don’t think guns are a good idea on planes, but the idiotic No Bladed Anything Ever rule has got to go. No one is going to be able to hijack a plane with a box cutter again. That was a one time trick and we all know better now.
If the blade is under 4″ it should be allowed just like the “good” old days.
Hell, I think we should be issuing knives at the boarding desk.
Well this thread certainly brought out the bigots, didn’t it?