Metaphor Alert: Detroit Cop Accidentally Shoots Herself at Detroit Public Safety Headquarters

As is so often the case in these situations, there is very little information available about a Detroit Police Department officer who shot herself while at….Detroit Public Safety headquarters on Friday.

A remarkably brief Detroit Free Press post says an investigation is trying to determine what happened. As to her condition, they report that . . .

The officer was in temporary serious condition Friday.

Whatever “temporary serious condition” means.

We don’t highlight this story to make fun of the injured officer. We certainly hope that whatever happened, she makes a full and fast recovery.

Rather, we note a story like this because we’re constantly told that only highly trained law enforcement officers and members of the military have the specialized skills and know-how to be trusted with the responsibility of carrying a firearm.

The fact is, like violent crime rates, the number of accidental deaths involving firearms in the U.S. has been declining as the number of civilian-owned firearms has soared well north of 400 million. The average American firearm owner is at least as well trained and respectful of firearm safety as is the average cop.

Or, as a TTAG reader remarked when he saw this story, “LE training is little better than commercial concealed carry training.”

True?

 

comments

  1. avatar Prndll says:

    THIS is the kind of training that the NRA was meant to handle.

  2. avatar Mark C says:

    I would guess that given the number of police and other law enforcement agencies, the training varies widely. The FBI is fairly rigorous, but people are human and make mistakes. We’ve all read stories of gun safety instructors with NDs, so even the best trained can do something stupid.

    1. avatar Napresto says:

      I have been doing a research project lately related to firearms safety training, both LE and non LE. Have talked to a number of trainers in various contexts, and my take away so far is that LE training is actually more frequent and more involved than training for most private CCW holders, but also of a different kind: more regimented, more rote, more dedicated to a single platform and a specific kind of use. Some CCW holders are probably better trained because they take a wide array of courses on a regular basis, but I’d be surprised if that’s true of most. Then again, the private CCW is for getting yourself out of trouble in extremis, not a tool for your day-to-day, so differences would be expected. It has been interesting to see how, no matter whether LE or non-LE, the rules of safety and their critical importance are strongly emphasized and reinforced at all stages of training. Too bad people still make mistakes…

    2. avatar raz-0 says:

      There’s LEO training, and there are LEO departmental standards for competency. There’s also the LEO. Systemically, there seems to be more training than practice, and there’s something to be said for refinement of skill vs novel skill acquisition.

      I’ve run into shooters from the FBI, Air Marshals, TSA VIPR teams, ICE, State police, County Sheriff, municipal departments large and small.

      There’s a lot more LEO who try to get out of or around qualifications. Kind of like you get buddy punching for time cards, you get people who try to get others to shoot qualifications for them. There are organizational cultures that police this better and worse, with the expected results on proficiency.

      The federal agencies seem to do a good job at enforcing a minimum and consistent standard, and every one I’ve met believably performs to their qualification standards, but they do vary in how accessible they make practice. That comes down to an ammo allowance and access to facilities.

      Lots of departments don’t really give out a ton of training, and what they do is based on availability of one time funds. So what they get may be quality, but may not be consistent when factored over personnel churn over time. Then you have practice. Ammo allowances are fairly common. Sufficient allowances less so. Policies to make people use those allowances even less. Easy access to facilities to practice… that’s highly variable.

      1. avatar Not Larry from Texas says:

        For us anyone who dose not get the yearly pistol and rifle qualification dose not get to carry a weapon. There is definitely no one missing out or skipping out. I missed mine by one day due to do a administration adjustment by the training department and had to turn my pistol in for a week.

      2. avatar Was stationed at Fort Knox myself says:

        Probably the best trained police are the U.S. Mint Police who work at the Fort Knox Bullion Depository.
        Why? Because they have a shooting range in the basement, and because they have literally NOTHING ELSE TO DO with their time! Working inside the most secure building on the planet, they can either sit at their desk and twiddle their thumbs, or use their shooting range. My guess is that even if they were barely qualified in firearms when they took the job, they’re all experts within their first year on the job, because they have NOTHING ELSE TO DO but target practice!

        1. avatar frank speak says:

          Federal Reserve guys aren’t far behind….lots of money….lots of time…

  3. avatar Otto Lode says:

    every career LEO I’ve ever met has at least one ND in their history most have more than one and I’ll bet dimes for dollars this involves holstering a non safety equipped striker fired handgun but w/o the actual facts it’s impossible to render judgement

    1. avatar Hannibal says:

      You must hang around a sampling of LEOs that are not indicative of the norm. It’s not unheard of (i.e. everyone know the guy who managed it) but doing a ‘desk pop’ is a pop culture reference.

    2. avatar Huntmaster says:

      I think I would find a different bunch of guys to hang around with. Just to up my odds of eventually spending my IRA.

    3. avatar Huntmaster says:

      “every career LEO I’ve ever met has at least one ND in their history most have more than one”

      Every single one? At least one. Not trying to sound judgmental.

      1. avatar Vic Nighthorse says:

        If he knows only one or two it the odds are good. Every voodoo priest (1) I have met had an advanced degree in chemical engineering.

        1. avatar Joel says:

          Well played.

    4. avatar Jeremy says:

      I bet “all the LEOs you’ve met” also beat up people to death for no reasons. Get out of here with your fables, what a clown!

    5. avatar bryan1980 says:

      I unholster/holster a striker-fired pistol with no thumb safety at least three times each day, and have been for about 10 years now, with no ND’s. I’m not going to knock on wood, either, because it’s up to me whether a ND happens or not. If you’re keeping your finger off of the trigger during the holstering/unholstering process, it’s hard to see how you’d have a ND during that process.

      1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

        bryan1980,

        The commenter above is calling attention to the FACT that it is relatively easy for loose or frayed clothing to catch the trigger of a striker-fired handgun while reholstering, causing the handgun to fire unintentionally.

        There is at least one recorded instance of this happening.

        What that means (if anything) in terms of risk management is an entirely different kettle of fish.

        1. avatar bryan1980 says:

          Sure, it’s possible, but if we only know of one instance of it happening, counted against the hundreds of thousands of similar pistols in use (a good bit of them by LE) means it’s very, very uncommon. In this case, more likely just another unqualified affirmative action hire by a woke, big-city department.

      2. avatar Garrison Hall says:

        I think you guys are making this whole thing much more complicated than it actually is. Everybody knows that guns accidentially “just go off”. This is the main reason that they are so dangerous. //sarc//

        1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

          (snicker)

  4. avatar 1Merlin says:

    A moments inattention. LEO are trained in masses and utilize guns as a necessary tool for the most part. A tired person and/or a careless moment and stuff happens. I have seen many NDs in my days as an action shooter and nearly every one of the involved shooters had extensive safety training and KNEW how to handle a weapon safely.

    It can happen to you believe it or not,

    1. avatar Rick the Bear says:

      This reminds me of a lecture in nursing school.

      The professor said something to the effect of “when you make a med error”.

      There were lots of harrumphs and inhaled breathes, so she let things settle down.

      Then she said, if you can’t imagine making an error, you could easily miss it when you do actually make one (the whole perspective thing).

      I just wish that the Lame Stream Media didn’t frequently hold up police as exemplars Of gun handling. Then we could actually search for the behavioral flaw that precipitated this (and other) NDs so that we all might carry more safely.

      Just my $0.02.

      1. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

        “Then she said, if you can’t imagine making an error, you could easily miss it when you do actually make one (the whole perspective thing).”

        Yeah, ran into that when I was hospitalized, every nurse who interacted with me asked for name and birthday. One even apologized when she asked, I told her it didn’t bother me in the least ever since that story broke in Tampa years back about the guy who got the wrong leg amputated. A few weeks back, my eye surgeon verified with me before I was anesthetized what eye was being operated on. Ask away, medical folks. I’m reassured when you do…

        1. avatar Dave G. says:

          Just before surgery several years ago, my orthopedist verified with me which knee was to be worked on and marked his initials on it with a felt tip pen. At the time, he told me that he had been doing that for years and felt vindicated, since everybody else in the profession was now doing the same.

        2. avatar Craig in IA says:

          Most of this is to satisfy the lawyers. You know- not “if”, but “when” the doctor gets sued for malpractice/negligence…

  5. avatar Country Boy says:

    I hope the LEO comes through AOK. Prayers sent.

  6. avatar Hannibal says:

    “LE training is little better than commercial concealed carry training.”

    I don’t buy it. Many of the conceal carry training courses I’ve seen are to check a box so you can get a license to carry. The live fire, if there is any at all, is usually perfunctory. Sure, you can buy your way into serious tactical classes or luck out with a really safety-conscious instructor that will fail you if you don’t pay enough attention but I doubt it’s the norm.

    LE (initial!) training is typically much more extensive and for certification requires hours of live-fire (40 hours of range time plus initial day and night quals is what I’m familiar with).

    But after the initial training many departments have little or no continued mandatory regimented refreshing. If you can punch paper moderately well you do your bi-yearly qualifications and get left alone. Guns are not a big part of being a cop. I can see how even a good officer fresh off nights and having been sleep deprived by multiple court days (because the court doesn’t care if you get sleep and the department doesn’t have the manpower to deal with it) could screw up like this.

    1. avatar Not Larry From Texas says:

      More less, I had 40 plus hours in the academy, plus more training during the FTO period. After that up to recently we did 2 qualifications per year which definitely did not encourage realistic shooting positions or artificially induced stressors. There has been a recent reevaluation of the firearms courses with more shooting and movement, awkward shooting angles (for example laying down on your side) , low light shooting and more emphasis with a patrol carbine.

      The problem is definitely not everyone is a pistol person and it’s just one of the many tools on our belt. Additionally training always seems to be the bare minimum to insulate the agency from liability and requesting training , getting funding and the approved time off is a major P.I.T.A so one really bothers.

      1. avatar Not Larry From Texas says:

        More or less*

      2. avatar Hannibal says:

        Yeah, the reality is that unless you’re on a special unit, most departments are a lot more concerned with the 99% of stuff you do rather than the 1%, even if the 1% is really, really important when it comes up. And I can kind of understand it… as long as in-service training isn’t being used to watch diversity videos and learn the latest dance moves for social media outreach.

        In my opinion departments would get more benefit from training more hands-on defensive tactics anyway. Not like that’s gonna happen.

        1. avatar Not Larry from Texas says:

          We did have a training block on LBQTZzzzz individuals who think are women even even when the are men or vice versa or something in between. It making administration searches of individuals more complicated when trying to comply with physical security standards.

      3. avatar Dave G. says:

        Not Larry:
        What, pray tell, is a “patrol carbine?”

        1. avatar Hannibal says:

          It’s typically an AR, sometimes something like a semi-auto MP5. Basically whatever long(er) gun you have issued for the trunk or car.

        2. avatar Not Larry from Texas says:

          Department variable, but it is usually some flavor of AR-15. 4 years ago we had 870’s, UMP 40’s , a traditional semi automatic 14 inch AR-15 and a full auto LRWC M6 in the inventory and qualified with all 4 at the range in one day in addition to the pistol. Today we just have the LWRC M6 and a much easier day at the range.

        3. avatar Juice says:

          Usually an AR. If the CLEO calling the shots is old enough (or a Fudd) it might be a Mini 14 Ranch Rifle.

    2. avatar Garrison Hall says:

      And then there’s the practice of cash-strapped suburban departments hiring LEOs with bad employment records and multiple firings so they can avoid the added cost of sending a new hire to the academy for training.

  7. avatar Otto Lode says:

    the two cases of ND I witnessed first hand were shotgun hunting where people would turn the safety to the fire position if they thought they were approaching a possible action area and then the Adrenalin rush of anything that spooked them caused a finger twitch and in both cases my hair got parted by the blasts so I switched to hunting solo then quit hunting all together when I stopped eating meat! I was trained to remove the safety as I’m raising the shotgun to the target so I never had such a ND. Both parties were very experienced IMO and both were mortified by the event(s)

    1. avatar Ferg in Tahoe says:

      Dick Cheney one of them?😝

      1. avatar Miner49er says:

        A dick had been drinking all day, then chose to go hunting at dusk.

        If he just hadn’t had “other priorities” and received five draft deferments maybe he’d gotten some good training right before they sent him to scenic Southeast Asia like most young man his age.

        Watch out! Chickenhawk with a gun!

        1. avatar jwm says:

          We won’t talk about all the service time ted kennedy had. Or the girl he killed with his car.

          The only point you’re making is that we can cherry pick facts about any group and be right.

  8. avatar TexasJack says:

    All I got was “her”.. of course

  9. avatar strych9 says:

    Hrmm. I’m of two minds about this.

    Generally I’d say that the school of thought that ND’s happen over a long enough timeline is probably true in most cases. The real question is how fast the person has an ND, which is probably the training dependent part. But handling a lot of guns over a lot of years many people will eventually make a mistake and that might cause a *bang*.

    The reason the 4 Rules work is because you have to break more than one to have a serious catastrophe. Part of the reason for that is because people have momentary lapse of concentration that might result in breaking a single rule but it takes a much larger fuck-up to break two (or more) at a time and generally speaking a momentary lapse of concentration/mistake will not produce multiple rule violations, at least not at the same time.

    1. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

      “The real question is how fast the person has an ND, which is probably the training dependent part.”

      I’d be curious to know as to how many folks who have had an ND ever repeat that error…

    2. avatar uncommon_sense says:

      strych9,

      With respect to people who handle firearms often, whether or not they negligently discharge a firearm depends on the exact definition of negligent.

      I know of a freak event where a carbine (with a unique design feature) discharged in spite of the operator’s purposeful action to visually verify that the chamber was empty and there was no magazine in the carbine. Turns out the magazines seat so far into the magazine well that you cannot consistently visually verify whether or not there is a magazine in the magazine well in poor lighting. So, in spite of the operator’s good safety practices, the carbine went BANG! anyway. Fortunately the operator was safety conscious and had pointed the carbine in a safe direction before pulling the trigger and there was no harm to anyone.

      So, was the previous operator negligent? Yes and no. Yes because the carbine discharged. No because the operator visually verified that the chamber was empty and that there was no magazine in the magazine well. (Of course there actually was a magazine in the magazine well that was not visible in poor lighting. As a result that operator puts his/her finger into the magazine well to ensure that there is no magazine in the magazine well before dry fire practice.) And “no” because the operator did not harm anyone.

      I will close this entire discussion with this simple safety directive:
      (1) Always make sure that the firearm is pointed in a safe direction when doing anything that can actuate the trigger. That includes holstering a handgun as well as training with or maintaining any firearm.
      (2) Always use both your eyes and fingers to verify that a firearm is unloaded in both chamber and magazine before training or maintenance. And cycle the action multiple times before pulling the trigger just in case your eyes and fingers failed to detect ammunition.

  10. avatar former water walker says:

    Here’s my anecdote…I’ve known a lot of cops. Mostly at the gym. The vast majority are racist idiot’s. One young one who attended my church at the time(Homewood,ILL Full Gospel) brought his gat in full uniform to Bally’s Health Club (Matteson,ILL)and threw his gun in front of GOD and everyone in a locker. Dolton cop. With a crappy lock. Yeah it went missing…how’s that for details?!?😃😎😏

    1. avatar Ur racisis says:

      Vast majority of gun owners R racisis to

      1. avatar Ferg in Tahoe says:

        Ur racisis…Fag troll!
        Ur momsisis a racis is whysis u wasis bone…the fool that you are!

    2. avatar Ban says:

      Yea wat u own a gun for so u can sho it off at ur klan meetin

      1. avatar Tim says:

        The Ku Klux Klan is the retarded child of the democrat party. So when do you meet? Wednesday?

    3. avatar Red in CO says:

      Oof… the irony of calling someone an idiot when you don’t even understand the difference between plural and possessive….

  11. avatar pigs are not perfect says:

    But cops are safer with guns. Why don’t we restrict them to police! They never make mistakes! 😀

    1. avatar M says:

      I don’t understand folks like you who hate cops. If you do your best to drive decently and to live an honest life, the cops will never bother you. Maybe you live in Venezuela or North Korea, but here in Florida you really, really have to push it to have your life affected negatively by the police. It’s always the same sh*t heads who keep the cops busy, and the guy/gal doing something stupid or reckless behind the wheel wrong time wrong place. But I am sure you’re one of those here with a crazy story “all the cops I know….”

      1. avatar John in AK says:

        Here’s the deal: Virtually every one of these types has some sort of negative history with authority in general and ‘The Cops’ in particular. They are the ones you see on ‘Cops’, the scrawny inbred bare-chested tattooed geeks with the mullets, challenging The Cops to fight–followed shortly thereafter by their being dragged around on their faces for a bit before being stuffed into the back of a cruiser in tears.

        You should always ask, or at least think to yourself, “What was it with this guy? DV Assault? DWI? Drug Possession? Child Molestation? Kiddie Porn?” Bear in mind that nearly every one would be able to point to the place on the Dolly where the Bad Policeman touched them–or their cousin, or their wife-who-is-their-cousin, and so forth.

        That makes it much more understandable.

      2. avatar Southern Cross says:

        This is probably why cops have a negative opinion of “civilians”. Because they are often in contact with the worst of society they extrapolate that on to the rest of society.

        1. avatar Not Larry from Texas says:

          ****Ding Ding Ding**** winner of the daily double

      3. avatar Hannibal says:

        Some of them are mad that they did something stupid and got caught. Often they’re the kind of person that bristles when challenged so maybe they took a little thing and turned it into a big thing for no reason. I have people like this in my family.

        Or maybe they met a bad cop (or a good cop on a bad day) and hold a grudge. It happens.

      4. avatar In for a penny, In for a pound says:

        M- If you support the 2nd Amendment, then you don’t care for thugs who enforce unconstitutional laws. I get that you need cops to keep lower income folks away from you, but not all of us prefer sacrificing Liberty for wealth. In many states, the cops, who enforce unconstitutional laws are exactly who We Citizens have the right to use force upon when they attempt to deprive a Citizen of their rights under color of law. The police are nothing but societal janitors, and they become exactly what the 2nd Amendment is to be used upon when they ask for a permit.

        Babyboomers and their subservience to corrupt authority have made it to where a cop could murder me simply because I am armed and if they are scared of a 37 year old, large White man, who knows the law. Folks like you think I have to drop to me knees and comply with unconstitutional laws are just as much who the 2nd Amendment is to be used upon.
        The only person who could safely/temporarily point a gun at me is a uniformed cop in a marked car, because I would not get into a close quarter combat with an up armored threat even though my handgun defeats soft armor, where my murderer would take me from my wife and kids and get a paid vacation. When that cop is off duty the presence of their gun would let me legally return their behavior on to them. Open carrying around my friends, it is perfectly legal for me to use force to defend their Liberty from any person no matter the threats occupation.

      5. avatar Vic Nighthorse says:

        It seems that you forgot about the Gerald Goines’ and Zachary Westers of the world. There are scores of these bad cops that have been caught and they unjustly screwed a lot of people before they were. Most, likely don’t take it to those extremes and never get prosecuted.

  12. avatar DJ says:

    Striker fired??? I hate them all.

    Appendix carry. Point it at your junk. You’re right. I’m not that good. Something about FOUR rules.

    I’ll take that revolver with that 10-12 pound trigger pull. Marksmanship counts.

    Completely unimpressed with today’s cops, especially the women.

    1. avatar Jeremy says:

      Because we need more and more of the, as the number of sh*t bags is growing. Cops also handle traffic crashes, some of them at least, that keeps them busy too. The thing is folks with an education and/or a combination of skills don’t want to be cops usually, for obvious reasons. You have to be nuts to pursue a career like that. They usually work crappy hours and the pay isn’t even that good in some places and agencies considering the amount of stress, risk, liability, etc. So there is a “supply/demand” issue, agencies have to hire people with a questionable amount of life experience. Past drug use is a good way of proving my point, 20 to 30 years ago the experimental use of marijuana once upon a time in your life would usually disqualify you, nowadays in some places they hire people who have smokes hundreds of joints in their youth. I am not saying yes or no, this is just to show how the standards have been lowered in most areas. On the other hand, I don’t think the job is easier and less stressful than it used to be decades ago. So it’s a lose-lose situation.

    2. avatar Kendahl says:

      Forty years ago, where I used to live, beat cops carried 4″ S&W Model 10s. One of them was engaged in a foot pursuit, stumbled and shot himself in the leg. If anyone had taught him to keep his finger on the frame instead of on the trigger, he’d forgotten about it.

    3. avatar Hannibal says:

      Neither a revolver nor (reputable) striker fired semi-auto is going to go off unless you pull the trigger so I’m not sure why you think the former is better UNLESS you make a practice of pushing the hammer down as you holster such that it cannot draw back if something weird happens (garment in the trigger guard, etc).

      I guess you must like the NYPD 2 trigger on glocks. You have to REALLY want to shoot someone for it to go off… any then you’ll hit someone ten feet away. Nah, just kidding, they still go off when someone mishandles them in a stairwell.

  13. avatar Safety king says:

    This is why I carry guns with safeties.

  14. avatar Gadsden Flag says:

    Most LEOs are not shooters. They wouldn’t go to the range if they weren’t paid/made to. Most don’t like/dislike firearms. Nothing against them. Just indifferent. Saved a couple of them from shooting themselves. They got pissed at me for embarrassing them, but an unintended discharge with injuries would have cost me an ass load of paper work. Expecting LEOs to have no unintended discharges is like expecting NASCAR drivers to not have a crash. This is not an issue. Get over it.

    1. avatar Not Larry From Texas says:

      I love to shoot, but I work the 12 hour grave yard shift , a 10 month old plus overtime. So for me its sleep or shoot

      1. avatar The thin blue thong says:

        You’re just starting, give it a few years and it will be sex or sleep. That’s why so many cop wives/girlfriends get done by another dude when the man is patrolling the streets at night. That or one day you’ll find out another cop is banging your wife. Female officers are the worse though, half of them are total whores, some would jerk a dog if they had to. The other half are feminazis with huge issues.

        1. avatar John in AK says:

          So, you know this. . . from experience? Are you the cuckold, the cuckolder, or the female sperm-recipient?

          Please share.

        2. avatar Not Larry from Texas says:

          Wow?!? Anyhow that was a bit off the hinge even for the general anti LEO individuals here. Still looking for my buddy Larry…..Larry you there? I need a laugh.

  15. avatar enuf says:

    The officer did not “accidentally” shoot herself, she Negligently shot herself. After that come the details of how the officer messed up.

  16. avatar Scooter says:

    Navy vet buddy popped a .410 shotgun into his living room ceiling. Local LEO I know put a round into his thigh. Local LEO I know of busted a cap in his own a$$ stowing his heater in the small of his back. None of the CCW crowd I know has any negligent discharges. Just sayin’.

    1. avatar M says:

      A quick search on the internet will provide you countless discharges, including fatal accidents, where veterans and leo/retired leo were not involved. Most of them being at the range or with idiots playing with guns in their backyard.
      There is a video of that big idiot who shot his leg with his .45. Another story I can remember is that gal who accidentally shot her melon with a .500, because her friends/family thought it was a great idea to let a novice shoot that monster with several rounds in the cylinder. As far as local stories, a gal shot her hubby in the leg when a hot case went down her shirt and she lost control. I didn’t even need to “google” to give you 3 real stories of incidents.
      There are a few folks here who seem to hang around the most f’d up veterans and cops, I don’t know anyone who ever had a negligent discharge. I don’t count the “Henry told me Bryan almost shot himself in the nuts at the range, he heard it from Bobby who was on the parking lot when it happened.” My life is boring I guess, that or half of you are full of it with your stories.

      1. avatar Miner49er says:

        Several years ago a local LEO put a sunroof in a cruiser. He was told to check if the shotgun in the rack in the unit was loaded, he just reached in and yanked trigger.

        A really surprising loud noise occurred…

      2. avatar Dave G. says:

        @ M:
        Got muzzled in the face once in basic training by a fellow airman because of a hot case down the back of his neck. Fortunately for me, his (M1 carbine) did not discharge, though I’m almost positive he still had his finger on the trigger. It is now 60 years later, but there are some things a guy never forgets.

  17. avatar Ranger Rick says:

    I know of a young law enforcement woman who nearly killed herself with a ND in the Ladies Room while at work. The bullet severed her femoral artery, she nearly died a TK that was stored in someone’s trunk saved her life.

    This article has a direct correlation to another TTAG article posted today about dealing with your handgun in the restroom.

  18. avatar LifeSavor says:

    Hey, TTAG,

    You know I am a big fan; I read TTAG every day, multiple times a day. Your cover for reporting this story is that it points out the silliness of the argument that only highly trained professionals should have guns. I think it is OK for you to point out the real reason: we all benefit from constant reminders about gun safety.

    Prayers for the injured officer, not only for her recovery, but for surviving the inevitable investigation, as well as all the ribbing she will probably get from her peers

  19. “LE training is little better than commercial concealed carry training.”

    I’ve had military handgun training, LE handgun training, commercial handgun training, and “informal” handgun training. LE was the — if it’s the right word — most minimal.

    Private was damned good. Commercial was probably slightly better (because my private trainer happened to be excellent). I obviously can’t speak for all LE departments, but experiential and anecdotal evidence suggests most LE departments shoot (NPI) for close-enough-for-government-work “I hit the stationary target” basic proficiency.

    LE and Mil training back then didn’t even involve *drawing* and firing, or holstering. Commercial and private *do*.

    1. avatar Hannibal says:

      I can’t speak for every department in the nation but I suspect that, in general, LE training has come pretty far from when you are talking about it. Were those the days when they had candidates\officers dump empty brass in a pocket instead of dropping it for speed’s sake?

      For at least a decade the academies in my area start every stage from the closed security holster. It’s impressive to see people go from fumbling with that to being able to draw as if it were a competition rig. Well, some people.

  20. avatar guy says:

    Didnt bloomturd say something about only Leo’s and such should be allowed to carry lol. Seriously though I hope shes okay.

    1. avatar Dude says:

      Bloomberg basically said he is okay with using guns to protect yourself (himself), as long as you hire a team of highly trained professionals to do it for you. Guns in the hands of commoners is just too scary.

      1. avatar guy says:

        That about sums it up thank god that guys out but hes still got his hands in it in several ways.

  21. avatar MLee says:

    I’ve been handling and shooting firearms upwards of 50 years now and I’ve NEVER had a negligent discharge of a firearm. Each and every time a weapon I was handling fired, it was on purpose.
    Humans do make mistakes but firearm handling is a place where you should be at the top of your game.
    Just like I’m a pilot, you don’t go flying when you not all there or not in it. It’s not safe for myself, passengers or anyone else.

  22. avatar retmsgt says:

    Keeping your finger off of the trigger would most certainly cut down on a good number of NDs.

    Geez, these people carry a very dangerous tool yet rarely know the 4 rules of gun handling. Sheesh.

  23. avatar Chris T in KY says:

    The average CCW gun owner is better trained than the average policeman.

    1. avatar M says:

      I think you’re getting too excited here. How many CCW gun owner go to the range more than once or twice per year, and how many got into training classes? Probably a very small amount. Think about how many CCW licenses are issued in your state, and how many ranges you have, what do you think is the amount of folks going to these ranges per week or month? Where I live most folks are in urban or “semi urban” areas where it’s illegal to shoot in your backyard. Most cops don’t shoot more than 2 to 5 times per year, but I am confident saying most CCW holders aren’t any better than that.

      1. avatar Chris T in KY says:

        Your faith in the police is amazing. You think they will be there to save you when you need them correct?

        You are ignorant of the facts about the lack of police training in this country. It’s a very serious problem. And the taxpayers don’t care. And the government, federal, state and local dont care. Cities like New York have huge budgets and they don’t send their cops to formal firearms training enough. It’s much worse in poorer areas of the country.

        1. from 2016: HARSH REALITY: Police Are Not Highly Trained Firearms Experts
        https://bearingarms.com/mike-m/2016/06/02/individual-safety-whos-responsible/

        2. from 2020″ “The Chicago Police Department does not specifically train officers on use of force and de-escalation methods for the city’s crowded CTA train system”

        https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/criminal-justice/ct-red-line-police-shooting-training-20200306-b4qabgerxjax3m7mrwvt5bhzmi-story.html

        3. ” In North Carolina, It takes 1,528 hours to become a licensed barber. The state’s minimum police training requirement is 620 hours. (Charlotte-Mecklenburg police require another 278 hours of training.)”

        https://www.cnn.com/2016/09/28/us/jobs-training-police-trnd/index.html

        4. from 2019: “The Average Civilian Pistol Permit Holder is Better with Their Weapons than Most Cops”
        https://havokjournal.com/nation/the-average-civilian-pistol-permit-holder-is-a-better-shot-than-most-cops/

        5. In the USA a CCW holder is more law abiding than most police.

        https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/11/10/californias-criminal-cops-convicted-but-stay-on-the-job/

        If you listen to firearms podcasts like I do, you would learn a great deal about guns. The training and who is not taking training enough. Cops. And who is taking training more and more. Civilian CCW holders.

    2. avatar Hannibal says:

      Facts not in evidence and unlikely given human nature. LE are required to meet a certain (low, IMO) bar. In most places CCW holders are not. That is all that needs to be said. Not everyone who holds a CCW is a ‘person of the gun.’ Most have careers that take up their time and have nothing to do with guns. Most do not have the easy access to training, range time and (sometimes) free ammunition that LE do.

      Now, if you were to select in the people who post on gun blogs you might have something.

      1. avatar Chris T in KY says:

        Got any Links to back up what you are saying???
        There are police departments in this country where the cops have had no formal training at all.
        It’s a numbers game now. Fill the slots first. Then send them to formal training.

        As an example a US Army soldier is only required to qualify with their primary weapon once a year. I retired in 2005. If that requirement has changed you just let me know.
        If a civilian goes to the range at least twice a year. He or she is already doubling their training compared to US Army personnel.

  24. avatar Specialist38 says:

    I bet she was pooping…….

    1. avatar Women and gays should not be cops says:

      Or blowing a supervisor

    2. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

      “I bet she was pooping…….”

      Or urinating. They drop trou for both, you know… 😉

      1. avatar Specialist38 says:

        Good point…..

  25. avatar Jeff Hunt says:

    The Free Press is notorious for this. When Kevin Bacon was murdered they had no details until WDIV published a story about it being a GRINDR slaying, then FREEP gave more info. Our DPD sucks. When my neighbors were murdered another neighbor and myself were at their house before the fuzz arrived and then didn’t allow us to attempt CPR. I know CPR and worked midnights ER at several Detroit hospitals including Detroit Receiving. And then they did nothing themselves until our notoriously slow EMS was so late to arrive they decided to load one of them into a cruiser but couldn’t figure out how to do it and hit his head on the side of the car. If this wasn’t so tragic it would be a scene from a Mel Brooks film. All the good police leave as they are all underpaid, while our Mayor and Council give hundreds of thousands of dollars in tax breaks, and help pay for sports arenas for billionaires. These folks don’t need subsidies while we get murdered and cannot get anyone to answer 911 calls. 🙁

    1. avatar Huh!?! says:

      Kevin Bacon was murdered!?!?

  26. avatar Dude says:

    “I’m the only one in this room professional enough to carry this Glock 40”

    *immediately shoots himself in the foot*

  27. avatar Don from CT says:

    Back when TTAG was great. This statement was brilliant. It still is

    Passively Constructed Negligent Discharge Story of the Day:

  28. avatar James W Crawford says:

    S&W 3rd generation safety!

  29. avatar andy gold says:

    The talk is about adequate training, but what ends up happening is that with some, after carrying a gun daily for a long period of time (I’ve carried for 32 years), you start to take certain liberties with a firearm that one obviously shouldn’t. We KNOW that our gun that we’ve carried over that period of time is not going to go off by itself, and maybe we might “muzzle” a hand or leg or something sometimes. We just know it’s not going to go off. Then when trying to do maintenance, which we’ve done a million times before, we might negligently forget to check the chamber before “dry firing” it to take it apart for cleaning. That’s when accidents happen. I think it stems from having carried for so many years, one gets complacent, and no longer has the “fear” that others have who have not lived with a gun on their hip for so long. Me, I practice the utmost of safety, but I notice those who have the years on, but are not “gun guys”, sometimes don’t do the same.

  30. avatar Anon says:

    i don’t know what the requirement is today for NY State Police but years ago, qualifying with 25 rounds per year was it,.
    That requirement made me real impressed.

  31. avatar RagingRealist says:

    “Or, as a TTAG reader remarked when he saw this story, “LE training is little better than commercial concealed carry training.”

    True?”

    Answer- yes. It’s true. I’ve attended both law enforcement and general concealed carry training. The firearms training portion is essentially the same. Until you get into specialized police training.
    Unfortunately, you can only teach a person so much “safety” before you have to let them handle a firearm on their own.

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