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OK crime scene (courtesy

Many readers consider me anti-cop. I am. I’m anti-bad cop. Having recently been detained by the Austin PD (after witnessing the immediate aftermath of a firearms-related suicide), having interacted with police on other volatile occasions, I can tell you that many (but not all and certainly not most) fail to treat citizens with the respect they’re due – just for being citizens. Take that as you will. But . . .

it’s certainly true that I would do everything in my power to assist a police officer in trouble. In the main, they have my back. In the main, I have theirs. Thankfully, my support has thus far taken the form of taxes paid and courtesy extended. But if push came to shove, I’d like to think I would follow the following example [via Oklahoma’s]. . .

It happened just after 2 p.m. Tuesday in the 2800 block of W. Park Pl. Rookie Officer Adam Eller and field training officer Sgt. Michael Lambert were responding to the burglary call . . .

During the chase the two officers became separated. Eller found himself alone when he caught up to Jermaine in a driveway of a nearby home and as he tried to place him under arrest, a fight ensued. During the struggle, Jermaine was able to take Eller’s police baton and then proceeded to strike him over the head somewhere between six and 12 times.

According to a report, that’s when a witness nearby charged up with his weapon drawn and told Jermaine he would shoot him if he did not stop hitting Eller. That heroic witness has not been identified.

Both Tremaine and Jermaine Williams were eventually taken into custody and booked into the Oklahoma County jail Tuesday night. Eller was rushed from the scene to OU Medical Center with serious injuries, but was released on Wednesday and is expected to make a full recovery.

When it comes to aiding police, it’s worth noting the possibility of paying the price when cop number two or three shows up (a.k.a., my worst nightmare). Regardless, anyone who respects and protects innocent life is on my team. And I on theirs. Hats off to the police apprehending the perp and the anonymous armed defender intervening in the cop’s beat-down. Thank you both for your service. [h/t ShootingTheBull]

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    • About 20 yrs ago in MT a deputy was responding to a holdup and got pinned down waiting for backup. It was a short wait a half dozen citizens, some with “eeeevil” ARs, starting firing at the perps just to keep their heads down and the scrotes surrendered. This is just one of many reasons for the 2A- the armed citizenry backing up the legitimate authorities in time of need. The deputy took command quickly and the ‘fight” was over with no casualties so it only got local coverage.

  1. No question, if a lone cop is getting his or hers ass kicked by a bad guy(s) I would intervene.

    Like I said, after OC’ing for almost eight years, most cops I have interacted with out here in New Mexico have been professionals. Plus, working in EMS, I work with cops regularly dealing with drunk, drugged out, upset and mental psych patients. Across the board, the cops have shown exceptional restraint and the use of minimal force to keep the “rambunctious” patients from hurting others and/or themselves.

    • Yes, But what it the “stop or I’ll shoot BS. Cop is getting his head beat on by some skull just fire, x3.

      • Stop, or I’ll shoot, works fine for me. I have no desire to take a life, if it can be avoided. If he didn’t stop, then I’d X-ring his ass.

        • I expect I’d have run up and shot him. I have long since determined that my capabilities no longer allow extensive interaction, if I have to draw, I plan to fire immediately. If he ceased at that point, I would not shoot him again. A man beating hell out of a uniformed cop tells me all I need to know.

      • No. If the bad guy does cease and desist with a warning, FINE by me. I’m trying to preserve life. If not, well, that is what the gun is for.

        Because in the end, the cop might have crossed the line and the “Bad Guy” might have a reason for fighting the cop.

    • Ok full disclosure. If it was a lone cop getting beaten by an ARMED bad guy I would intervene. Unarmed bad guy I might sit back and watch a while unless the cop was a woman and the bad guy a man. A cute lady cop and cute lady perp and I’m just gonna video.

      That said im not likely to let anybody beat a man or woman to death or stab them to death in front of me if I’m armed. I know its not smart to get involved BUT I could not live with myself If I did nothing and a person died or was crippled for life.

      • Baton blows to the head can be life threatening with each impact. I might have warned him to stop, but the shot to the bad guys head would have come withing one second of the end of my command.

  2. One certainly shouldn’t take the risk that the cop they can help isn’t a bad one. I’d like to think I’d have done the same.

  3. Sorry no. Not until the police have a duty to serve and protect their employers(tax payer/citizen).

    Until then I will extend them the same courtesy, which is none.

    • Cognitive dissonance is a powerful weapon.

      How to you expect to show a Rookie Cop that his fellow citizens are good people if you don’t act like a good person?

      It certainly won’t help whatever negative preconceived notions he has by letting him get beaten.

      • Oh, I didn’t know cops can selectively fulfill their supposed role (i.e. serve and protect the taxpayers) based on public perception.

        Also LOL @ defining “good guy” as someone who helps a government employee. What if that cop was chasing a drug entrepreneur to steal his property? What if he was chasing down someone who refused a stop-and-frisk? Would you help?

        • Would I do a cop’s job for him? Not without joining the force myself and collecting a salary.

          Would I intervene to stop someone from murdering (or severely injuring) someone else? I should hope so!

        • If you happened upon the ongoing murder of Kelly Thomas, would you have done something? Chances are the cops would have murdered you too.

        • Cop:
          “Are you transporting any guns, drugs, or large sums of money today citizen? Especially money. If you are transporting large sums of money I would like to steal confiscate it from you and make the claim that it’s for drugs. We need some much needed equipment down at the station, such as a new cappuccino machine, and if you have large sums of money today we can excitedly procure that equipment with your funds before you can get a lawyer to get the money back. And since we are taking your money – you may not be able to afford a lawyer to try to get the money back. A circular Win-Win for us.”

  4. Cops have dangerous jobs, but so do highway flagmen, roofers, rodeo clowns, crop dusters, and tight rope walkers. Cops deserve the same respect they dish out. When their bad attitudes hack law abiding, decent people off, they need to go chill out, take an anger management course, or think about a job change. Kudos to the concealed carrier who came to the rescue of the cop in this story. Hope the cop and his buddies at the police station learn a new appreciation for armed “civilians.”

  5. As the number of people oc’ing proliferates, we’re going to see more instances like this. Interestingly, this is something we might’ve seen earlier in our history when armed citizens were more common. I don’t know when we reach critical mass for truly significant changes but, with the incidence of armed citizens increasing, changes in the way police relate to armed private citizens are definitely on the way.

    BTW, Robert. If you’re getting this kind of “blue wall” criticism, you must be doing something right.

    • “As the number of people oc’ing proliferates . . . ”

      The aspect of this incident that scares the hell out of me is the possibility that back-up might arrive at any moment and they will probably shoot the good Samaritan. How can the good-guy don a “white hat” in any shooting situation?

      Isn’t an OWB holster the closest thing we have to a “white hat” today?

      Law-abiding citizens don’t wear uniforms. We must not wear badges; probably wouldn’t want to. Perhaps, like Congress-critters, we could wear little lapel pins but the cops couldn’t see them in a firefight situation.

      An OWB seems to be about the most conspicuous equivalent to a “white hat”. If – some day – OC became the norm then cops would get into the habit of looking at people’s hips to see if they are carrying. Maybe – at the scene of a crime – they would look to see if the guy holding the gun is wearing an empty holster. If so, then he might second-guess himself as to whether the guy with the OWB holster is really the bad-guy.

      I’ll immediately concede that an OWB isn’t very conspicuous; not as conspicuous as a 10-gallon white hat. Nevertheless, it seems to be a hell-of-a-pretext for justifying the practice of OC.

      For a moment, let’s prescind from the debate about whether OC is tactical or politically correct. Let’s assume – for the moment – that we want to promote OC as a means of normalizing guns in polite company. On that premise, how can we “sell” the uninformed public that there is a good reason to OC vs. the less disturbing CC?

      ‘Well, Mr. & Mrs. Public, you see that person who is carrying a gun does so in contemplation of some dire emergency of some sort. Perhaps he or another person on the street is being attacked. In such a case, he would be justified in drawing his gun. But, when he does so, he exposes himself to a new jeopardy. A police officer who might come on the scene might thing the guy with the gun is the bad-guy. He isn’t waring a uniform or a badge. The only way he has to alert the police that he is the good-guy is to ware an OWB holster. That alerts the police to consider the likelihood that the guy with the gun is probably be the law-abiding citizen. Criminals – especially criminals on their home turf – don’t OC’.

  6. Only problem I see is standing over a beat up, possibly unconscious cop with a pistol in your hand when cop #2 shows up. Things could go even more south in a hurry.

    • Exactly. I like to think that I would intervene on the officer’s behalf, but I would be scared shitless of backup arriving and believing that I was the aggressor…There’s still not a cut-and-dry solution for this problem.

      • By the time backup arrived, you should be holstered, and administering first aid. I guess that could be misconstrued, but I have a little faith in humanity left.

        • and of course Jermaine won’t try to kick your ass too when you put the gun away and do first aid.

        • You assume Jermaine is going to stick around, after you pull out your pistol(the story doesn’t give us the full details). Let’s assume he does, and backup rolls up instantly(you know how often that happens). You are standing several feet from a cop laying on the ground, with the ever-loving s**t beaten out of him, holding a gun on someone who matches the description of a person with a BOLO out on them. Follow the instructions given to you by the responding officer, and you will most likely be just fine. Most likely is admittedly a gamble. As I said, I still have a little faith in humanity left.

  7. To me this is in stark contrast to the recent post of the good Samaritan who intervened with a car jacking. In that case I would not have intervened, opting only to call 911 and provide information. Situations like that are far too difficult to determine who really needs assistance and who is the aggressor. In this case I would like to think that I would come to the officer’s aid. But I keep getting this nagging feeling that doing so my unnecessarily put my life in danger. Not from the criminal mind you, but from the police. What if then the police officer, or another police officer arriving at the scene, then points his weapon at me? What if I am then forced to shoot a police officer in fear for my life and what are my chances of justifying that? Remember the homeowner who call 911 to report armed burglars, chased them off with his shotgun, and was subsequently shot by responding police. Maybe just calling 911 is the best answer. It’s a damn shame I feel like that, but at the end of the day, I’d rather just go home to my wife and kids.

    • We low life “civilians” are pretty consistently told to call 911 and let the cops do their job. I suspect that following this advice would have resulted in the cop in this story being beat senseless, his gun acquired, and maybe used against him or someone else. But setting back and letting the cops do their job is what THEY want us to do.

    • @gman-“Situations like that are far too difficult to determine who really needs assistance and who is the aggressor” Some people would rather sit back and film someone being harmed in front of them instead of acting, which is disgusting. What is an armed citizens excuse when they can have a gun in their hand instead of a camera? Oh yeah, the excuse is I don’t want to be sued and loose replaceable possessions or an accustomed lifestyle, so I watched Kitty Genovese be raped instead of helping. The car jacking was an unarmed woman victim yelling for help and your choice would be I will put my phone in my hand instead of my force equalizer. Step up and show concern for your fellow man and don’t be afraid to ask what is going on.

      My situational awareness would have been peaked by the scream and there is nothing wrong with asking someone if they need help. Critical thinking is a plus and hopefully in your possession as well as a gun. I would have approached with my hands behind my back with one of those dangerous half-inch triggered Glocks and asked questions until I determined the situation was kosher.

      An armed cop should be able to take care of himself or he will learn that he chose the wrong line of employment. This situation I would have had my firing solution walking up the driveway and scanning the immediate area for another cop before shooting the attempted cop-killer, and yelling friendly so the cop who is disoriented on the ground doesn’t instinctively draw and fire at a muzzle flash.

      It is best not to have a gun in your hands when the boys in blue are rolling up adrenaline dumping ready for war.

      • Lose not loose. I’m guilty of putting an extra round in my grammar just like I would have the attempted cop killer, and I bet the surviving witness wouldn’t have corrected me.

  8. RF, good to hear that you are anti-bad cop. I’m also presuming that you’re anti-animal cruelty (especially Mini Schnauzers as I know we both have an affinty/love for the breed), anti-clubbing of baby seals and anti-fraudulent/bad media/journalist, anti-murder, anti-spouse beating, etc.

    I have stated many times in these comments that your criticisms of bad cops and things like militarization of police and no knock raids, are very legitimate. I have also stated that I believe sometimes, your criticisms go beyond the legit.

    I come here, and will continue to come here for The Truth About Guns, because unlike other media sources, you deliver it. But a lot of the bad cop related posts dont really have but a very tangential relationship to The Truth About Guns, as I see it.

    Far too often, it is only pointing out clear bad acts by cops, and almost never pointing out the good that cops do. Glad to read you clearly state that most cops are not bad cops. That is progress.

    • By ” good cops” you mean the ones who have no problem arresting the ” bad cops” for obvious crimes like beating the crap out of people handcuffed,( that would be assault ) Or shooting some innocent guy ( that would be murder ) ….or the ” Good cop” coming forward to testify against a ” bad cop” ( That would honesty ).. you mean good cops like that right?…. Cuz My Bullshit meter pegs every time I read a post spouting the good cop/ bad cop scenario….

      • Fuque, I’m a LEO and I have put some dirty cops in jail. I know they exist from like real life experience. You on the other hand, assume all cops are lying, cheating, cover up bad cops. Can’t you see the difference?

        • Yeah,I know the difference between a good cop and a bad cop.. Bad cops get caught… Good Cops, havnt yet.

          I’m not sure why you take exception with my views, Cops opinion of the public are equally jaded…Cop’s don’t shed tears when an innocent citizens death or property is lost while asserting force, Im not sure why cops expect the public to shed tears for them when one is shot, beat or whatever….. Both sides consider the loss of the other as cannon fodder… don’t shoot the messenger, and certainly don’t look for loyal badge lickers/ uniform worshipers in a venue where most people exercise critical thinking…

        • By “dirty cops”, are you referring to cops that didn’t toe the line?

          There’s a reason Frank Serpico is the most despised figure in the NYPD.

        • @davidk-“But a lot of the bad cop related posts don’t really have but a very tangential relationship to The Truth About Guns, as I see it.”
          I happen to believe that articles related to exposing the abuses of those who are paid by the governmental authorities to enforce laws are an important part of checks and balances. Law enforcers by definition should not break the law and violate the public trust in them, and it is rare to hear the truth about government corruption. I would not say you work for me as a taxpayer, just like you could not honestly say to me your job is protecting and serving fellow citizens. Since I don’t believe in fairy tales as most fairy tales ended rather badly according to the Brothers Grimm. Also the articles disprove the unintelligent and highly dangerous idea of the statist disarmers that only those in positions of government authority can responsibly handle a fire arm and the option of using deadly force.

          Accountability would be nice but that will never happen unless cops are held personally responsible and financially, or if the citizens say with force that your authority is no longer a benevolent service, just overpaid. The police departments need to hire good people who are not politicians and who actually like the people they serve, but the ranks are full of violent, low intelligence lemmings. I was just following orders might not be a well received excuse for criminal actions.

    • Glad to read you clearly state that most cops are not bad cops. That is progress.

      Uh no. Progress is bad cops being eliminated from the force – and cops in general to go ahead and stop stealing peoples money (civil asset forfeiture), stop illegally searching people’s cars (drug dog who is sitting down licking his butt somehow “indicated”) and stop beating people to death. There are many more activities which should be stopped – but if we could start with these – that would be progress.

  9. I would intervene on behalf of my uniformed fellow citizen. I’m not in the shoot first camp though. I won’t take a life unless I’m out of options.

  10. A story about cops…and a plain ol everyday Joe helping him…..I expected sex Rex to have been on here by now

  11. The problem is with people who think any criticism of the armed agents of the state equates to plain hatred.

    • I’ve exchanged a couple of emails with RF and he’s definitely doesn’t hate police. He just is all for accountability

      • Of course Robert doesn’t hate police. Anybody with a semblance of a well-balanced mental state knows that. The problem is humans by and large are unable to moderate themselves.

    • I hate to be that guy. But if a cop is on the ground, injured and his buddies roll up to see me, an OFWG, holding a gun on 2 guys that match the names Jermaine and Tremaine I’m not in any fear that the cops are going to misread the situation and assume I’m the bad guy.

      Driving while black is bad. Being black with an injured cop on the ground and an OFWG having you assume the position against the fence is just down right scary.

  12. I have pointed this out before, but as a Soldier in my former Reserve unit and full time deputy in Prescott AZ once told us after someone asked him about citizens having guns “Hey, on any given night, my only back up is only going to be an armed citizen.”

      • Hey, Yellow Devil –

        By that do you mean you posted that comment and the countdown timer edit thing never showed up?

        That happens to me about 30 percent of the time, I asked Dan Z. about it and he replied no one else has mentioned it happening to them. What browser do you use?

        • TTAGs is pretty broken. I get the same problem. Try refreshing a couple times. Also, it took about 2 minutes for this reply window to finally load. Fix yo’ shit, TTAG. Stop with the excuses!

  13. BEATS the heck out of me what I would do. A lot of the anti-po-leece rhetoric is justified RF. Most of the recent shooting of cops on “routine” traffic stops could have been avoided. Situational awareness indeed. Sorry I’m not at all sure the local cops would intervene on my behalf-no duty to protect. And that includes female officers.(don’t do the job if you can’t handle it). I’ve also known many cops in my 60+ years-many bad ones,,, I’ve had to hold my tongue on a couple FB gun groups about police worship-WE are our own first responders.

  14. And as a first responder it’s my duty to help if I can. Doesn’t matter if the victim is a good cop or a bad cop or just a citizen in street clothes. For me to do less is a failure on my part. I have to live with my decisions. I like to lay my head down at night with a clean conscience.

    This was supposed to be a reply to F.W.W.

    • NO PROBLEM with my conscience. I’m also secure in Jesus Christ. I live in Cook County,Illinois and am not at all sure other cops wouldn’t shoot me-like Ralph just mentioned. It’s a LOT less wild west here with very few CCL & NO open carry. I follow the law and try to be a “good” citizen too. AND I have intervened when low life scum were attacking women in public-more than once on the EL in Chicago. What’s your story JWM? Any Heroics?

      • Nothing I consider heroic. I. like you, have protected weaker folks on the street. Went into a burning building once to help a lady out. Fire fighters have my respect.

        If we citizens are indeed first responders we need to own that.

  15. I would not intervene without a gun, and so as the state of CA wants me to jump through hoops just to carry, looks like crew in blue with badges are on their own. The way they want it, so its on them.

  16. If I didn’t have time to think about it, I guess I’d bail out a cop in trouble. If I had time to think about it, I’d be really worried about another cop shooting me in the back so he’d be sure to get home safe that night.

    • It’s sad that is exactly what I thought of as well.

      What if this guy that was beating this cop in the face with a baton bum rushed the good samaritan and he was forced to shoot him. Suppose he died on the spot. The other officer comes running around the corner only to see a guy with a gun, a dead guy on the ground, and his partner’s face pulverized into spaghetti:

      Which is most likely:
      A) Cop shoots the guy with the gun immediately.
      B) Cop tells him to put down the gun – shooter complies – cop goes over and handcuffs him while the suspect is compliant and starts shouting “stop resisting! stop resisting!” while kicking him in the face and spraying pepper spray underneath his eyelids and into his nasal passages.
      C) Cop politely tells him to drop the firearm and handcuffs, followed by pat down, and detainment in cruiser until the matter is resolved.

  17. Yeah,..No thanx i’ll pass on being that guy who runs to a cops aid.. that cop you Just saved has no problem lying , cheating,tricking and otherwise coercing you to give up your rights enforcing stupid victimless crimes based on driving .. and he could care less about your health and well being..or your families..

  18. It’s so hard to say… Usually armchair quarterbacking is easy… But with dirty cops being the norm, who’s to say he doesn’t deserve to be beaten to death? How do you know it’s not the “perp” merely defending himself from the cop’s desire to hunt and kill people for sport?

    I’d really like it to be simple. I’d like to say I’d be right there to back them up… But, much more often than not, the cops are the bad guys and their reports are back-to-back lies.

    I wish I could say that cops were decent enough that I could presume that one in distress deserved my assistance. But I can’t say that. The facts just don’t support it. So, my actions cannot support it.

    Cops have hard-earned the hate they are getting. I can set aside my own hate for them and make rational choices, too. But the facts say that the ration choice is to leave them to reap what they’ve sown. If they won’t learnt he easy way, let them learn the hard way.

    Consider that the evidence supports the notion that cops are a sort of people who only learn the hard way… Is that the kind of intellect that should have a gun and badge and a uniform and a license to kill?

    They’re only human… But, they should be a better kind of human. Until they stop holding their tongue, and start outing the trash in their departments; they don’t deserve to be treated as that better kind of human. Clean house or get what you deserve for being silent.

    I’m not helping unless I’ve witnessed enough of the incident to know who the bad guy really is. Just like any other altercation in which fate might call upon me to be the protector of my fellow man… I have to identify the target. I have to know who the bad guy is, and who the good guy is.

    The badge and uniform don’t provide any help in making that determination anymore. The thick brown line of silence that lets the bad apples get away with what they do is no less guilty, and they’re reaping the consequences while blaming their victims… How much worse will it get before they learn?

    • I’m thinking it does get a lot simpler when one guy is on the ground getting his cranium beaten with a stick. Are you going to sit back and watch a man get beaten to death on the off chance he might be the bad guy in the fight?

      You are right about one thing, though; the uniform really has nothing to do with it.

      What matters is that one person is about to kill another, and at that stage (dude down, continued beating), it is NOT self defense on his part at that moment. The dude doing the beating has already stopped whatever imminent threat he may have been under a moment earlier.

      Even if he had had a self defense claim earlier in the altercation, at that point, he’s in the act of committing murder.

    • I gotta go with yu on this one Dustin…I think Id just walk away… Experience tells me that coming to the aid of a cop uniform is consenting to their tactics and policies…..

  19. I’ll Monday morning QB here and just say that my first action would be to shoot Jermaine or Trevaine or whoever was beating the cop. I don’t want to risk the cop dying and / or getting killed by Jermaine’s partner in crime.

    And since I’m a CC guy (usually), I’d re-holster once I’d shot and neutralized the first BG and cleared the scene for additional BG’s. If 5-0 arrived, I’d drop my Glock (it’s only a GLOCK, after all), and get ready to ID myself and follow orders.

    Still, outstanding job and I hope the Rookie recovers well.

      • Well I’m doing well so far after about 10,000 enforcement contacts on duty and a few dozen off. The last off duty was kicking a transient off church propery for trespassing about 3 weeks ago with a short incident report. Dealing with Fullerton PD was no problem. My off duty contacts with police usually go pretty well because I’m not a jerk.

        My last physical altercation was a few weeks prior to that. I’m the Monday morning QB who’s actually at the sharp end of the law enforcement spear. So if I make observations, it isn’t from the perspective from someone who’s never been in a fight.

        And I had a partner who took a beating from his own baton from a 5150 transient walking on the freeway shoulder. I asked him point blank (pardon the pun) why he didn’t shoot the guy beating him. He thought he didn’t need to.

        As far as I’m concerned, anyone beating me over the head is going to eat hot lead. If I have to shoot someone beating a police officer, I’m prepared to do that on duty or off.


        • That would be Kelley Thomas. Things didn’t go well for him – or the officers who beat him to death.

        • >Things didn’t go well (for) the officers who beat him to death.

          Not really. They all walked and none of them paid a dime out of their own pockets.

        • As far as I’m concerned, anyone beating me over the head is going to eat hot lead. If I have to shoot someone beating a police officer, I’m prepared to do that on duty or off.

          Yes. But would you shoot a police officer beating someone to death? That’s the real question.

  20. Fuque at 14:41, you think you are a critical thinker? On the topic of cops you are a myopic, narrow minded interwebz troll. Another fake tough guy behind a keyboard, who probably is only typing with one hand. You wouldn’t say any of that crap you are spewing to the faces of the executed Mississippi cops family members. Just keep being a big phony hypocryte. I can only imagine what you do for a living, and lets say I just assumed that because there are some lying cheating scumbag, lets say, plumbers (my guess) that all plumbers are that way or you are that way. Have fun with your He Man Cop Haters Club. I might call you a small man, but you clearly have a small mind.

    • >internet tough guy
      >calls others internet tough guys
      >cops accuses others of having small minds
      >courts ruled smart people cannot be cops

      My sides.

      • Ive told you ass clowns what I do for a living, and it aint hiding behind some douchebag username/avatar, sitting behind a keyboard, perhaps in your mommy’s basement. With that avatar and mental patient name you use, I can only imagine what you do for a living. If in fact you do something for a living.

        • No matter what I do, it’s not as vile and disgusting as dispensing violence for politicians. 🙂

        • @davidk- FUQUE you arrogant, confrontational law enforcement agent. Your posts make you sound like you are one of the disrespectful, contempt of citizen cops that get good police officers shot. I wouldn’t call you officer like I do Accur81, as that random internet name, who claims to be a public servant actually likes his fellow citizens. “You wouldn’t say any of that crap you are spewing to the faces of the executed Mississippi cops family members. Just keep being a big phony hypocryte.”  You obviously associate with lesser charactered individuals off-duty, since you don’t know anyone who isn’t affraid to speak the truth and have some conviction. If the the slain officers messed up in tactics that could be a life saving teaching exercise.  If the cops over stepped their legal duties and became armed criminals preying on the public, then a citizen has every right to defend themselves.  I happen to work in the field of accountability and respect when it is deserved and earned goes along way.I believe in going home to my family and being calculatingly proficient in my chosen profession. No man would enjoy being a disposable barrier in the way of that, even if that individual has fooled their self to think they are not the bad guy while violating a sworn oath to the Constitution.

        • Ive told you ass clowns what I do for a living, and it aint hiding behind some douchebag username/avatar, sitting behind a keyboard, perhaps in your mommy’s basement. With that avatar and mental patient name you use, I can only imagine what you do for a living. If in fact you do something for a living.

          We know you don’t need to hide behind an avatar online. You can hide behind your badge – resting assured that none of us will ever say anything to your face – lest we end up on the ground being beaten despite being cooperative while you shout “Stop resisting! Stop resisting!”

          After all we are just civilians living by a different standard while you enjoy immunity, legislative carve outs, and a license to beat people. We’ll go ahead and pass on saying anything to your face.

  21. When it comes to aiding police, it’s worth noting the possibility of paying the price when cop number two or three shows up. There is no possibility about it with our high speed low drag operators.

  22. Greatplainssower, how I sound, or come off in my posts, is as a LEO, who is a Patron Life Member of the NRA, who loves his country, the 2A/RTKBA, loves his fellow citizens, but cant believe the narrow minded ignorance of some commenters here who label or call all cops lying cheating thieving scumbag armed. I am not at all dissrespectful to citizens I encounter in my duties as a LEO. How many LEOs that you know will agree with RF’s very legit gripes about things such as miltarization of police and abuse/routine use of no knock warrants? Also, any encounter with police where the cop is arrogant, nasty, disrespectful, or otherwhise abusive with a citizen, is one too many. But there are far too many here in these comments, who broadbrush all cops as scum. BTW, so called speaking truth, doesnt entail disparraging dead cops murdered in the line if duty. If you wouldnt say to the face of slain officers family members, what you will say anonymously behind a keyboard, I call that being a hateful hypocrite.

    • Not really sure how you can get all up tight over the public’s growing consensual opinion concerning your profession. The Cops have the same contemptuous opinion concerning the public..As for me being a tough guy or whatever…… Hardly.. Im a simple everyday guy, you couldnt pick me out of a crowd… I own a small painting company. a humble, quiet, company creating jobs and contributing to my community in a positive way… I don’t need a uniform and a badge and engagement with the public on an enforcement level or my ego stroked everyday to boost low self esteem..Nor do i need my ego stroked by badge lickers and uniform worshipers or high-5’s from groupies to reenforce Inadequacies and short comings….

      You don’t understand what a hypocrite is… So let me school you … you live in a community where you expect to be treated with the same mutual respect that everybody else enjoys, only you really don’t fit in, because what others have to earn thru their treatment of their fellow citizens ( respect ) you assert thru intimidation and force, all the while taking the moral high ground argument … THATS a true hypocrite… It seems your butt hurt that your ego isnt being caressed on this site…I get it.. It would bother me too if I ventured outside of my circle and wasnt as well received as I thought i was entitled to be…

      • You say intimidation and force as if that is the way all cops operate. This is what makes your thinking narrow minded. Like I said, I love my fellow citizens and I always show respect, unless and until the person I’m dealing with clearly demonstrated that it is no longer warranted. BTW, in my 20+ year career, I can count the number of times thats happened on my 2 hands. I have all the respect for the hardworking taxpayers, like yourself that pay my salary, but make no mistake, I earn it, just as you earn yours. I also earn whatever respect I get. Not looking for boot licking or badge worship. Just looking for my people, the 2A/RTKBA people of the gun, to be able to separate bad cop behavior from the majority of good cop behavior. Is that too much too ask for? What if I had hired a painter for my house and he lied and ripped me off and treated me like shit? Should I think all painters are like that guy, or that you are? The same goes for racial and ethic slur stereotypes, or hoplophobic stereotypes about gun owners.

        • David K: It OUGHT to be clear to all of us that a majority of cops treat respectful citizens respectfully. That’s been my experience over 60 years.

          I think of the problem like this: At least 80% of the cops are pretty good. I imagine about 2% of the cops are pretty bad. Then, 18% fall somewhere in-between.

          The survival of the LEO profession depends upon one important factor: Will the 80% cull-out the 2% and reform the 18%?

          The 2% really sully the reputation of the 80%. These 2% create the pretext for individuals who have had an unfortunate experience with one of these guys to project their behavior across all LEOs. The 18% tend to reinforce the image. Not so much that encounters with these guys involve egregiously objectionable behavior; it’s just an attitude problem.

          Theoretically, it’s the job of “management” – the superior officers up to the sheriff/chief – to set and enforce the policy. Management will do a good/adequate/bad job of it. As a practical matter, I look to the 80% to self-discipline their own ranks. These 80% will insist that management adopt and enforce proper policies; or, they won’t. These 80% will correct the 18% and eject the 2%; or they won’t.

          To what extent are the 80% insisting on proper behavior by their fellows? I don’t presume to know; I’m not inside the system. To the extent that a blue-wall-of-silence exists, it’s not happening. I don’t presume to know how to make it happen.

          The figures 80%/18%/2% are just wild-ass-guesses for purposes of illustration. Pick any suite of numbers based on one’s personal experiences/prejudices. Beware of implausibly low/high figures. E.g., if a cop thinks that “bad cops” are only 0.00002% of the force he is delusional that so few “bad people” from the society as a whole find their way to police work. If a civilian thinks that 80% are “bad cops” he is delusional that so many “bad people” from society have found their way to police work.

    • Not all cops are scum. We are critical of the “system” as there are some major flaws, and all cops are a part of that system and many cops are exploiting those flaws for their own gain and the inflation of their own authoritarian heads. When we unleash some cop hate – you should assume those are the cops we are talking about. There is no justice for people who are victims of that corrupt system and those corrupt cops.

      If honor and integrity is your goal – tell your chief “No” during one of those meetings were you guys talk about funding and the need for speed traps, vehicle searches for drugs/guns/money, sobriety checkpoints, and the use of drug dogs by means of skirting warrants.

  23. MarkPA, I won’t argue with your numbers, since they are pretty spot on. Your sentiments/thoughts on the topic are right on the money, also. The overwhelming majority of citizens will never encounter the 2% you reference. They are criminals who became employed as police through deception, or became corrupted, usually early on in their career. Many will encounter your 18% figure and they, along with the 2%, are the ones that give your 80% figure a bad name/reputation. Most here, who complain about cops are complaining about the 18% because they are most likely butt hurt over a traffic stop, or other police encounter, that didn’t go their way, where the cop/s were rude, unprofessional, arrogant, nasty or other wise abusive to the citizen. As I’ve said before here, its never OK or acceptible for a cop/LEo to treat a citizen this way. Whenever I’ve seen this in my job, which is white collar crime investigations, I’ve addressed it right away, with the other agent and/or management. This is not to say it always gets corrected. Even if a routine police encounter suddenly changes due to agressive/assaultive/threatening behaviour by the citizen, repsonding with unprofessional, rude, arrogant, nasty behaviour is not going to either de-escalate, solve or otherwise handle the situation. Properly responding with your training and experience, while still being a professional, will give the cop a chance at properly handling the situation. There is some common sense still here in the comments section.

    • Thank you for your kind response to my remarks.

      “. . . in my job, which is white collar crime investigations, I’ve addressed it right away, with the other agent and/or management.” (Alas, I’ve had the misfortune of experiencing a tangential experience analogous to a “white collar”. Some years I had the opportunity to ask one of the people on the opposite side: “What did you think you guys had on us?” Her answer was: “We had nothing on you; we just knew if we hammered away long enough we could get you to sign a consent agreement”. Left a really bitter taste in my mouth.) In any case, I think that “white collar” is a different kettle of fish that might be easier to resolve.

      Is there any solution to – if you will “blue-collar” crime-cops? If you have spent your entire career in white-collar you might have little insight. We would need some insight from street cops.

      I suspect you are correct. The 2% are apt to gravitate to the inner-city and drug-crime where there are ample opportunities to flex one’s muscles and seise opportunities. Likewise for the 18%. I sympathize with cops who have to work in the inner-city. If your constituency is habituated to running, arguing, spitting in your face, it’s got to have some impact. After years of these experience one is apt to spontaneously act in an overbearing and brutal manner whenever encountering a suspect who seems to fit the profile (skin-color, speech pattern, dress, etc.) Whether the suspect is an alter boy, member of the choir or thug, he will tell his momma about the brutal treatment meted out by the cop. Rinse and repeat.

      I don’t have a solution. My intuition is that members of the repressed classes are not going to figure out the solution themselves. If a solution exists, it’s apt to have to come from the LEO community.

      • MarkPA, again, thank you for your rational thought and analysis. Although my job is WCC, the last 13 years have been investigating drug related money laundering in a task force setting. We cross the ine between blue collar and white collar, but not on the level of street cops. I have myself encountered some of those 2% in my cases, and put a few in jail. Many others here in the comments seem to think because I say, please don’t braodbrush all or a majority of good cops by the actions of the 2% or some bad behaviour by the 18%, that I’m whitewashing bad cops, crooked cops, or just unprofessional, rude police behaviour. I’m not, nor have I ever. I think if you are open minded and not myopic, that’s easy to see. With that being said, the harm done to relations between police and the citizens they work for, when the 2% act out, or even some of the 18%, is impossible to understate. It hurts and it hurts bad.

        • Simply enforcing the unconstitutional drug war makes you part of the 2%. Deal with it.

  24. What the public really sees in terms of cops being bad is that a cop fired for doing something wrong is hired by a different agency before the week is over. That evident eagerness to recruit the worst tells the public that the worst is what is desired.

    The public also sees that to cops laws are more important than lives or people. When cops arrest a ten-y.o. kid riding in a car his dad bought for being an accessory to receiving stolen goods when the vehicle has clearly gone through at least three owners before the dad got it, and the other cops don’t walk out in protest, the public is justified in concluding that cops don’t give a shit about people, just about getting their points for making arrests.

    So long as cops treat the law as God rather than as a tool to be carefully employed to keep the peace, there are no good cops.

  25. This just in from the Supreme Court of Stonerland and Chief Justice Little Baby Boy T-Rex, all drug laws are unconstitutional…fire up the Meth Pipe…wait, what is that I smell… Oh Little Baby Boy T-Rex just pooped his diapers. Betty hop up the basement stairs and have mommy change baby’s poopie diapers…it can wait till the next break in the Call of Duty action.

    You are an ass clown. You actually bore me know. Bye bye baby

    • It’s funny when bloodthirsty psychopath cops gleefully violate Americans as part of the drug war then have the chutzpah to call other people ass-clowns.

      Also amusing is the sight of people who gripe about commerce clause violations against 2A, but praise the exact same commerce clause justification of the drug war.

      As always, cops are nothing more than semi-trained, mindless government animals.

      • Oh, little baby boy trex messed his diaper again. Once again you are blind with your buckethead hate of all cops. Replace the word cops in your statements, with gun owners, or black people or hispanics or jews. Then you sound even more ignorant if thats possible. The sad thing is you actually think you are some kind of deep free thinker, when you couldn’t be more ignorant if you tried. You are a blind bigot towards cops, regardless of what might have shaped or formed your views. KKK members think they have valid reasons for their beliefs. So did the nazis. I say ignorant and not stupid, because ignorance can be cured, with knowledge and enlightenment (something that I’ve seen zero evidence that you possess). Stupid on the other hand can’t be fixed. Since I presume you believe in the 2A/RTKBA, i think you believe in freedom and liberty. There might be some hope for you, but I doubt it. I’ll leave you to your cop hate and bigotry

        • Except gun owners, blacks and Jews aren’t employed by politicians to dispense violence. That is the literal definition of being a cop. What part of “enforcement” don’t you understand? “Force” is right there in the word.

          LOL @ the piggy claims to love liberty but gladly enforces the will of politicians, raping peoples’ liberties. Sometimes I wonder how cops don’t lose their minds from cognitive dissonance. Oh right, they have no minds. 🙂


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