Lake City Ammunition Plant
Lake City Ammunition Plant (courtesy US Army)
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Apparently not content with its efforts so far to make gun ownership more difficult and expensive for America’s 100 million firearm owners, a source tells TTAG that the Biden administration is taking steps to reduce the availability of .223/5.56 ammunition available to the average shooter.


A person with knowledge of the situation tells us that, more than just “considering” the move, Winchester, which operates the US Army’s Lake City ammunition plant, has been informed that it may no longer sell M855 and SS109 ammunition produced in excess of the military’s needs on the civilian market.

How would that affect the civilian supply of .223 and 5.56 ammunition? We understand that as much as 30% of the commercial market’s sales volume of .223/5.56 is produced by Lake City.

Standard capacity ar-15 magazines
Bigstock

The motivation here is obvious. The Biden administration is attempting to further spike the price of ammunition, squeezing the owners of America’s favorite rifles…the scary black ones that the president assures us are only good for killing people and taking down Kevlar vest-wearing deer.

Let’s face it. Even the hapless Biden administration must realize that they don’t have any realistic prospect of getting another “assault weapons” ban through the Senate. Instead, they’re doing the next best thing. They’re trying to make shooting most AR-15 rifles as expensive as possible for Americans who own between 20 and 25 million AR platform guns.

We’ve reached out to Winchester for a statement on the Biden administration’s move, but haven’t received a response yet. We’ll updated this post when we do.

In the mean time, it’s just possible that the Biden gang may have shot themselves in the foot (metaphorically speaking, of course) with this ploy. John Cornyn and Chris Murphy pulled out all of the stops to hammer out a compromise deal in the Senate that got 10 Republicans to sign on. They announced it with great fanfare this past the weekend.

Now, as the actual legislation is being written around that deal framework, the Biden clown car crashes right into the middle of things with a heavy-handed maneuver that’s sure to further anger tens of millions of gun owners less than five months from the election.

Will the ten GOP Senators who agreed to the Cornyn/Murphy deal stay on board now? Possibly. Maybe even probably. But the administration’s ham-handedness here can’t make it any easier for the bipartisan ten to maintain their resolve in the face of a snake-belly-low move by the ostensible leader of the Democrat party.

This is a developing story. Stay tuned.

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310 COMMENTS

  1. Wouldn’t it be nice if gun and ammo manufacturers and sellers would refuse to do business with any and all gov’t agencies/employees?

    #stopdeepthroatingtheboot

      • I wonder how long it would take the government to get that plant running again if Winchester just walked away from the deal, taking all their trained personnel with them. The feds don’t have people with the know how to just step in and start it back up, and that is a rather specialized skill set, you’re not going to Labor Ready for temps to fill in.

        • Longer than the couple of days it would take for them to utterly and completely destroy Winchester.

        • another question is how profitable is it to run the plant without selling surplus and how the price will look to run it next time it is up for bid.

        • Andrew Lias asks the real question.

          The Lake City contract is obviously attractive to any and all of the ammo manufacturers. How attractive is that contract, if the contractors are not permitted to sell the surplus that government won’t buy?

          Government may have shot itself in the foot – or maybe even the thigh.

        • How many people have been killed with green tip SS109 / M855 ammo? Probably close to zero. LOL

          But … the gov doesn’t want you to have ammo that has a steel core, because they don’t trust you.

        • I think Winchester is doing just fine!

          “WINCHESTER AMMO USA GREEN TIP BRASS 5.56X45MM 62-GRAIN 500-ROUNDS FMJ $299
          1 QUESTIONS 23 ANSWERS OR BE THE FIRST TO WRITE A REVIEW
          Order 500 rounds of Winchester USA Green Tip 5.56 ammo from GrabAGun today. Each round of the Winchester USA 5.56 ammo is loaded with 62 grain full metal jacket projectiles and brass casings. With a muzzle velocity of 3,060 feet per second, this ammunition is celebrated for its accuracy and performance. Get bulk ammo and 5.56 ammo for sale online from GrabAGun today!“

        • It would be gratifying to watch. Unfortunately the feds and the state govts can squash any business in the nation like a bug along with the banks they use and anyone who does business with them. What needs to be reined in is the government’s unlimited power over business.

        • Winchester runs it but the employee’s are government.
          Management has changed several times over the decades.
          This is one of several government owned munitions plants operated by or for the government.

        • Most employees are roll-overs from the last contractor, and the one before that, and so on. No one would really just roll out with Winchester, although it is a nice thought. We need our jobs just like any other honest, hard working American. Much more than just bullet makers at this plant…Sooo many skill sets involved. We have unions and contracts, etc… we made it thru Nobama’s attempts, we’ll make it thru this too, hopefully.

      • True and I’ll bet that this move violates the terms of the contract Winchester has with the Government.

        • Assuming that’s the case, what difference does it make unless Winchester is willing to simply ignore Biden?

          None. It will be quite some time until a court rules in Winchester’s favor, by which time the desired damage is done.

        • Rather like shutting down pipeline construction, drilling of oil wells,…………………………….

      • Winchester operates the plant on a contract that says they can sell off any production above what the military buys.

        If the Biden administration wants Winchester to stop selling Lake City ammo they will have to either renegotiate the contract, or buy all the M855 that Winchester Produces — ammo that the military doesn’t need and will have to buy and store or sell/give to some other country.

        • “If the Biden administration wants Winchester to stop selling Lake City ammo they will have to either renegotiate the contract, or buy all the M855 that Winchester Produces — ammo that the military doesn’t need and will have to buy and store or sell/give to some other country.”

          Kinds, sorta, maybe….not actually.

          Government contracts carry all the provisions necessary for terminating a contract. Any “negotiations” regarding “terms” of the contract are done before contract signing. Subsequent modifications may need to be negotiated, but not always (a provision inserted into the original contract, or later contract modification (“amendment”).

          Winchester ain’t Hansel and Gretel, tiptoeing through the woods. Unlike most of us, both the government and the contractor read all the “fine print”.

        • All the surplus could go to ‘the Ukraine’ conflict being bought with our tax dollars. I read a recent article that stated ammo was in short supply, but are they using 223/5.56 or 7.62×39?

          Don’t know.. but I do know the .gov will screw things up.

        • Manse, both AND 5.45×39 as well. You can add 7.62 as one of the Baltic states has been providing surplus M14s.

          Ukraine adopted a M4 variant in 5.56, but they have upper receivers in 7.62×39 to use the old ammo in training.

        • There is no real legal principle called “renegotiation” of a contract. We assume that the contract stipulates that Winchester can sell all ammo they produce beyond the Government’s specified needs, on the commercial market. That is certainly one element Winchester counted on when they negotiated the contract. If the Government now prevents Winchester from exercising an element of the contract, they have breached the contract. Winchester, therefore, is not obligated to continue producing ammo there.
          Neither the Government nor Winchester wants this to happen. I suspect neither Biden nor his goons understand government contract law. By now either Winchester or the Government contract administrators or both have advised the White House cabal how this contract works. The Government could terminate the contract for the Convenience of the Government, but would have to compensate Winchester for most of the profits they would have made if the contract had continued. They would then have to find another ammo company who would agree to operate the plant without the commercial sales provision. Ammo would then likely cost more. Winchester would then end up producing enough .223/5.56 ammo on their own to satisfy the commercial demand, thereby thwarting the Government’s attempt to limit this type ammo.

        • Our enemies would rather take more of our money, to make more ammo, and throw it into the ocean, than let honest patriotic Americans have weapons.

          Biden (and more importantly the people who control him) aren’t just incompetent. They are deeply evil, hating God, and haring us.

        • Diksum,

          The Government could terminate the contract for the Convenience of the Government, but would have to compensate Winchester for most of the profits they would have made if the contract had continued.

          And fedzilla would be just fine with that–being all too happy to print even more money to throw away.

          Along the same lines, fedzilla would also dare Winchester to sue fedzilla for that provision of the contract–informing Winchester that it will be impossible for Winchester to find a federal court who is sympathetic to their position.

          And not to put too fine a point on it: even if Winchester sues and a federal court sides with Winchester, the federal bureaucracy will simply refuse to remit payment at which point Winchester is screwed. As President Andrew Jackson famously said in response to an 1832 U.S. Supreme Court decision, “John Marshall [Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court] has made his decision; now let him enforce it.”

          Fedzilla has not been our friend for the last 50+ years although fedzilla largely put on a nice face and publicly pretended to be our friend. At this point fedzilla is no longer even pretending to be our friend.

        • uncommon_sense,
          Regarding your last paragraph, I think Trump’s election sped up the inevitable removal of fedzilla’s mask. I’m not sure if that’s a good thing or a bad thing.

        • They could just give it to me! I’m willing to collude! Of course, I’d then sell my surplus …

        • The government always puts a clause that they can change the terms of the agreement when in the best interest of the government.

        • In the right courthouse, a stay of compliance with this illegal directive could induce Winchester to produce nothing but excess ammo, and flood the market. But I’m sure Biden has a buyer, in Afghanistan.

        • There will be changes coming to 5.56mm production at Lake City. With introduction of the new round and stocking up on it (new production line) stocking and usage of 5.56 will decrease.

          100% our ammo bunkers are massively understock right now. And Ukr begging for supplies. (we have not even BEGUN to replace the Stingers and Javelins we have ship to them/OUR contingency larder has to be bare).

        • “…or give to another country.”
          F Me they’re going to send every round that plant makes and then some to damn Ukraine, at our expen$e.

        • “Well, then maybe they need to Walk out.”

          Why?

          As of this moment, we have no evidence jobs will be lost?

      • Also, lets “We the people” call Winchester and tell them this is unacceptible, that if they case to this, then “We the people” should boycott Winchester. Lets get their attention through the pocket book!

      • I don’t think he understands how the economy works.

        1-If Lake City makes it but doesn’t sell it, there will just be a glut waiting for him to leave office.
        2-If Lake City Makes it, but sells it outside the U.S. Ammo is a world market, so that frees up European Ammo makers to make and sell 5.56 and export it to the U.S. Civilian market.
        3- If Lake City just doesn’t make the ammo, that frees up components (Primers) for other manufacturers

        Lastly, whatever he does, he is assuring a thriving market for every 5.56 maker that ISN’T Lake City.

    • I’m sure that they’ll just switch to M193 when they have production time surplus to government needs. They produce a lot of it now.

    • I am an FFL and I refuse to sell to the police until my state removes the exemption from state-level gun control for the police.

    • The many international company’s that manufacture ammo will greatly appreciate the loss of a major compotator.

      • avatar Geoff "A day without an obsessed, obviously brain-damaged and mentally-ill demented troll (who deserves to live in New Jersey) PR

        Still hanging around where you’re not wanted, Pee Geee Two?

        Thinking you’re so smart making up single-use user names?

        What an angry little boy you still are! (Very little, if you know what I mean… *wink* 🙂 )

        • Geoff – On a totally non-related subject – It’s hotter than balls today. We are in for a brutal summer.

        • “It’s hotter than balls today.”

          Ugly hot… 🙁

          This summer is gonna suck. 🙁

          P. Jr – It’s Florida. The rain cools for a moment, and then steams you to death… 🙁

    • “Stolen elections have consequences.“

      If you have actual evidence that the election was stolen, you really should provide that to President Trump’s attorneys.

      I would say Rudy Giuliani and Sydney Powell as well as Jenna Ellis would be very appreciative of that evidence, otherwise it appears they are going to be disbarred for fraudulent court filings.

      • You mean ASIDE from the hundreds of sworn affidavits claiming fraud, and the fact that several key states changed election rules at the last minute, in violation of state and federal constitutions? Governors cannot unilaterally change election laws. Secretaries of State cannot unilaterally change elections laws. Nonetheless, that is EXACTLY what happened in 2020!

        • “hundreds of sworn affidavits claiming fraud“

          Anyone can swear they heard a rumor, that’s not evidence. And trumps attorneys had 62 opportunities to present solid evidence in local, state, federal circuit & appeals and United States Supreme Court and their filings were found without merit, and even fraudulent.

          “several key states changed election rules“

          The Republican legislature in Pennsylvania changed the law to allow more mail in voting and now are claiming their own law is unconstitutional, priceless!

          “A mail-in voting law is under attack by Pennsylvania GOP lawmakers who passed it
          Updated May 17, 20222:00 PM ET
          Heard on All Things Considered“

          “It once had the backing of almost every Republican lawmaker in Pennsylvania’s GOP-controlled legislature.

          But after expanding mail-in voting to all voters in the key swing state, Pennsylvania’s Act 77 is now under challenge by a group of GOP state representatives who are suing to throw out the 2019 law they helped pass.“

          Hilarious, the Republicans change the rules to allow more mail in ballots, but when their candidate loses suddenly it’s time to move the goal posts.

          Hypocrisy, thy name is Republican.

          https://www.npr.org/2022/05/16/1096943765/some-pennsylvania-lawmakers-who-helped-pass-mail-in-voting-law-now-want-it-throw

        • “Watch “2000 Mules” you simpleton/moron prog”

          The convicted felon adulterer produced movie?

          I just watched Donald Trump‘s United States Attorney General William Barr testify under oath that the 2000 mules movie was “unimpressive” and that the “premise was indefensible”.

          So come on, pony up, let’s see your real evidence. You claim 2000 mules, name one. Yes, just name one of your 2000 mules so we can verify your evidence.

          You people are supporting a seditious conspiracy, so what does that make you…

          “William Barr mocks ‘2000 Mules’ movie during Jan. 6 hearing, a film Sen. Mike Lee claimed had merit.
          Former Attorney General William Barr said the film ‘failed to deliver’ on claims of ballot trafficking, while Lee said the movie raised ‘significant questions’ of the 2020 election

          “By Bryan Schott
          | June 13, 2022, 5:02 p.m.
          | Updated: 5:08 p.m.

          During Monday’s House select committee hearing on the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol, former Trump administration Attorney General William Barr discredited a conspiracy-driven film that makes dubious claims about widespread fraud in the 2020 election. Barr’s rebuke of the “2000 Mules” comes only days after Sen. Mike Lee gave a tacit endorsement of the film, which other Utah Republicans have shown at campaign events.

          In the film “2000 Mules,” conservative pundit Dinesh D’Souza theorizes that non-profit groups paid volunteers — who are compared to drug “mules” — in five states to “harvest” hundreds or even thousands of ballots in 2020 and deposit them into ballot boxes. The film uses anonymized cell phone data to track when people came near those drop-off points, which allegedly backs up D’Souza’s claim.

          The film claims “ballot trafficking” was widespread enough to rig the 2020 election for Joe Biden.

          In taped testimony, Barr says he watched the film with an open mind, but it failed to deliver on those claims, even chuckling when he brought up the movie.

          “My opinion is that the election was not stolen by fraud, and I haven’t seen anything since the election that changes my mind on that, including the ‘2000 Mules’ movie,” the former attorney general said during his testimony.

          Barr called the analysis of the data in the film “singularly unimpressive.”
          “The premise, if you go by five boxes or whatever it was, that that’s a mule is just indefensible. The photographic evidence was lacking. It didn’t establish widespread harvesting,” Barr said.

          “If you take two million cell phones and figure out where they are physically in a big city like Atlanta or wherever, just by definition, you’re going to find many hundreds of them have passed by and spent time in the vicinity of these boxes. The premise that’s a ‘mule’ is just indefensible,” Barr added.“

          https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2022/06/13/william-barr-mocks-mules/

        • You can’t have it both ways.

          Either government is ineffective and incompetent, or it’s able to hide and keep quiet the thousands of people needed to shift a nationwide elections, where each county is in charge of it’s own election process.

          I’m going with #1.

          Trump is whiny @$$ cry-baby charlatan fraudster, and way too many Americans fell for his carney barker theatrics. MANY of Trumps policies were popular with American citizens. If he was just half way competent, he’d still be president. But he can’t stand for the spot light to be off of himself for one second. He thrives on the drama.

        • “Is “2000 Mules” fact or fiction?“

          I can tell you that the producer of the documentary is a Republican of the highest character with impeccable credentials:

          “September 23, 2014
          Dinesh D’Souza Sentenced in Manhattan Federal Court to Five Years of Probation for Campaign Finance Fraud

          Preet Bharara, the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, announced today that DINESH D’SOUZA was sentenced in Manhattan federal court to five years of probation, with eight months during the first year to be served in a community confinement center, after having pled guilty to violating the federal campaign election law by making illegal contributions to a United States Senate campaign in the names of others. D’SOUZA was sentenced today before U.S. District Judge Richard M. Berman.“

          “Conservative activist Dinesh D’Souza resigned as president of evangelical The King’s College in New York City on Thursday (Oct. 18) amid a scandal involving a relationship with a woman who is not his wife.
          D’Souza has scandalized the evangelical Christian world by pursuing the relationship openly with a woman he called his fiancé, while still married to his wife of several decades. D’Souza and his wife, Dixie, have been separated for two years and have filed for divorce.“

          https://religionnews.com/2012/10/18/amid-infidelity-scandal-dinesh-dsouza-resigns-from-kings-college/

          Truly, Donald Trump surrounds himself with only the “best people”!

      • I don’t see any correlation between the question, “Is 2000 Mules” fact or fiction and the response from Miner49er. However an attack on the character of Dinesh D’Souza is evident. I don’ know that Mr D’Souza’ past mistakes influenced the legitimacy of the documentary “2000 Mules”.

        • “Mr D’Souza’ past mistakes”

          So the fact he is a convicted felon because he lied on federal campaign reports has no impact on his credibility?

          And the fact that Donald Trump‘s handpicked Attorney General William Barr completely dismissed Desousa’s claims as “indefensible” means nothing?

          I understand you don’t give a shit about his adultery, Trump has admitted he committed adultery three times and pays porn stars $10,000 to fuck him while his third wife is at home with a new baby so character doesn’t really matter to you conservatives.

          But surely to goodness, out of 2000 mules you can name one, just one.
          Name one of the mules so we can investigate and determine if there’s any truth to the allegations, I await your speedy reply.

  2. IIRC four of the 10 Senators in question are retiring and the rest are not up for reelection this cycle.

    I doubt this moves the needle in our favor.

    • Flood them with calls and emails anyways.

      If you’re from a pro-2A state, call your local assemblymen to recommend state laws thaf would nullify fedgov misbehavior.

      Set them straight as best you can.

    • 11. I think it’s more effective to call YOUR senators and demand
      1: They move for Mitch McConnell be removed from his leadership position for violating promises he was elected to that position under
      2: They move to strip McConnell and the other ten turncoats of their committee positions for the same

      Make their actions have consequences.

    • Well, I will certainly remember Cornyn next time he runs. Not saying I’ll vote against him, but he will have some explaining to do. Specifically, since there would be no chance of a bill of any description passing without Republicans, what exactly did gunowners get for their signing on to this unconstitutional bill?

      I have to say, though, I do not believe any bill will actually pass both houses and be signed by His Royal Doofusness.

    • 10min until the progs shutdown imports from IMI. They HATE Israel and dem jew.

      If you’re not already stocked up you’re WRONG.

  3. An opportunity for another company to expand or even a new company to start up. 30% of a market is a large chunk. Somebody will fill that gap.

    • There’s a brand-new primer plant coming online, perhaps a new brass plant may get announced by some intrepid folks… ?

      • Cripes, I *hates* commenting on TTAG using an iPhone!

        Anyways…

        A strong decision by the SCotUS written by Thomas could jump-restart the carry (and general) gun market enough that someone might shit the cash to open a brass plant. There’s that new Texas plant that should be cranking out primers, in the long run, them doing this might be as effective as pissing in the wind.

        And, another administration can just erase that EO, anyways.

        Who knows? 🙁

        • You mean like the Fed judges totally allowed Trump to erase Obummer’s DACA EO via his own EO?

          Leftist politicians, congresscritters, and even judges don’t play by fair rules.

    • jwm,

      I hope you are right; I fear you are wrong. Especially given the up front capital costs of getting into the bulk ammo manufacturing business, the uncertainty around firearms in general, and the propensity of “big banking” to shaft legitimate businesses that aren’t “politically correct”, I’m not sure I’d bet on that pony.

      Given the recent shake-ups in the industry, I’m not sanguine about the price of .223/5.56 over the next three to four years. Even if Senile Joe gets the boot in 2024 (from my mouth to God’s ear!!!), it would take a while to get the market back to where it was, say, in 2018.

      • Folks kept telling me I had to have a 9mm. It was the worlds pistol round. It was and is. No argument. So I bought a 9mm. Then our first big ammo drought hit some years back and the first ammo that was sold out? 9mm. It was easier for me to get 9×18 for my Makarov.

        Now the worlds rifle is the 5.56. And what is the first thing to vanish when ammo becomes rare?

        I’m beginning to think that odd rounds is the way to go…….

        • Only difficulty is the odd rounds aren’t really produced as much during ammo droughts. It’s less likely to be bought out, but when it is it’s also less likely to be restocked.

        • “I’m beginning to think that odd rounds is the way to go…….”

          I discovered that the odd rounds were available early on when 9mm and 5.56 sold out. However, toward the end of the shortage, 9mm and 5.56 was everywhere, and the odd rounds were nowhere to be found. As a matter of fact, they’re still MIA.

          I haven’t seen the once common lighter weight 7.62×39 soft points in person in I don’t know how long. You can find the heavier ones, but not the light ones. The 6.8 SPC ammo selection never recovered. Everyone focused on cranking out 5.56.

        • .30 carbine is a good place to start. It probably qualifies as ‘odd’ nowadays. When I was a kid they were being bought mail order and were everywhere.

          I don’t know if they qualify as carbine rounds but as a kid we had some experience with .38-55 and .250 Savage. One of my buddies was a firm believer in the .257 Roberts. That was a shooter. I was always found of the 7×57 and the 6.5 Swede.

      • “…Especially given the up front capital costs of getting into the bulk ammo manufacturing business…”

        Our side has numerous pro-gun billionaires and multi-millionaires that could be convinced to fund such an endeavor, as a way of spitting in their faces.

        Think of it like this :

        The Leftist Scum ™ laughed at us when we complained about de-platforming by the social networks, telling us to go start our own.

        Then, what do you know? Elon Musk tendered a serious offer to buy Twitter, and all of a sudden, they’re (metaphorically) shitting bricks at the prospect of conservatives being on a platform with *heavy* US and global reach that they can’t touch.

        I think the idea has serious merit, all things considered.

        Remember when Obama ordered the armed services to crush gun range brass with a steam roller, destroying it’s value for the reloaders who bought it government surplus auctions?

        There was zero reason for them to do that, it was pure spite, and I say we repay their spite with strong dose of our own.

        I believe the idea is at least worth some serious consideration, seeing the near-future trajectory we are on… 🙁

        • “Obama ordered the armed services to crush gun range brass with a steam roller“

          It would be fascinating to read more about this, do you have a source or a link that tells more about this?

        • Geoff PR,

          A conservative funded and operated social media platform is a quaint idea–which failed in spectacular fashion. Look up Parler and how a concerted Leftist effort shut it down completely for a time–and how it never really recovered after that.

          The fact of the matter is that Leftists effectively control the Internet through legal and illegal means. If Leftists really despise an aspiring new social media platform, they are fully capable of shutting it down. Remember that Apple, Microsoft, Google, and Amazon (among many others) are Far-Left companies who have a virtual monopoly on hosting (server) services, DNS (Domain Name System) operations, application distribution (e.g. Apple’s App Store), and search engine availability. Good luck launching a platform if no one will host it, no one will support your website name in the Domain Name System, no one will distribute your application to use your platform, and no one will report your website in their search engine.

          And I have not even touched on illegal shenanigans such as impugning your platform, flooding your platform with bogus and extremely off-putting content, intentionally monkeying with core routers and DNS servers to impede access to your platform, and never-ending Distributed Denial of Service attacks on your platform.

          We are living in very dark times.

    • The ESG equity markets won’t fund oil production you thing they will fund ammunition plant? There are a bunch of abandoned DOD ammo/storage facilites available post BRAC though. If you don’t have to build new beehives would keep your cost entry down.

  4. The traitor cornyn has been getting tons of calls and is now getting “cold feet” about his Benedict Arnold imitation. I called the s o b’s office and told them that he violated both of the oaths that he took, one when he was in the military and the one he took when he was sworn in as a senator. That makes him a two time traitor to our country . I support protecting our schools and children but he and others have no authority to encroach on out bill of rights and that i will file civil rights charges against every s o b that votes for this abomination of a bill.

      • You ain’t kidding. That IGMAN ammo from one of the Balkans is definitely some hot ammo. Their NATO rounds are like a “ P” charge. I’m very impressed with them. But you watch and see if any Aussie ammo providers all of a sudden dries up. They’re gun-haters like the globalist WENCH P.M. in NZ and will definitely follow Biden’s lead when it comes to restricting us from guns.

  5. Perhaps my understanding is incorrect, but don’t we ordinary folks buy way more than the feds? Without civilian sales, will they really be able to keep the line open and operating?

    Either way, talk about a delayed move. I’ve been expecting this for decades.

    • “Without civilian sales, will they really be able to keep the line open and operating?”

      All the more reason to build a new ammo plant, just a short drive down the road from the Lake City ammo plant.

      Right *there* is your free instant trained labor force, compliments of the actions of Leftist Scum ™ who thought they were gonna screw us.

      Revenge can be a dish served warm or cold. Either way, it’s still revenge… 🙂

    • The ones to go after are the ones whispering in his ear.

      Communicate your displeasure to them… 🙂

    • If your Trump handcuffs are of the same quality as Trump University or Trump steaks or Trump airlines, you may be in for a problem…

    • Those who normally shoot the Lake City ammo will be looking elsewhere and every weapon that’s got 5.56 engraved on the barrel shoots .223 just fine.

      • Which means the price just went up on .223. Remember when the Puppet said he was working on inflation? He’s actively working on raising it.

  6. Possible breach of contract?
    It must be in the contract that over runs can be sold commercially or they wouldn’t have been doing it.
    The contract probably also says .gov can change said contract whenever they want.

    • Supposing the latter, Winchester could be on the hook to complete their contract, but when it expires there’s no point in operating a factory at a loss or barely breaking even. So I’d imagine they walk at the end of the contract and, at least if Brandon’s still calling the shots, nobody else will step in and the Army would have to buy it’s ammo at Bass Pro like everybody else. Even if a Republican gets in the White House by then nobody would sign a contract outlasting their term.

      • The Army is paying them $28 million over seven years to operate and update the plant. Not a lot of money, but not chicken feed either, considering that is the management fee, and does not include the component cost or labor costs for ammo produced. I infer, however, that since the Army owns the plant, Winchester would have to pay the Army for the unit costs of the overruns before selling them commercially.

      • I’d think that if this move does violate the existing contract and (as was pointed out here) the Government could demand a cancel/renegotiate then Winchester would have the option of just saying “no thanks, run it yourself or find some other sucker”.

        • “…the Government could demand a cancel/renegotiate then Winchester would have the option of just saying “no thanks…” ”

          Not likely to happen. Such could happen, but not likely. Govt really can’t afford such a disruption to a new acquisition of its latest move to different ammunition. Government contracting is not like private contracting.

          In private contracting (contracting with individuals), the seller generally has more economic power than most individuals. The seller can afford to aggressively treat customers, knowing that the lose of revenue might be negligible, and that there are hundreds of other people in line to contract with the seller.

          In government contracting, government faces a small supplier base for specialized product/services. The “balance of power” is somewhat equalized. In the case of Winchester, using your tax money, the feds can simply compensate Winchester for serious forecasts of loss profit due to government prohibition of selling surpluses to the commercial market, modify the contract, pay compensation with your money, and move along.

          Result? Winchester is happy, government is happy, a deep trough in availability of civilian favored calibers eventuates, along with a resorting of the rest of the supply chain.

          Government doesn’t want Winchester to abandon the contract; Winchester doesn’t want to forego government money. Individual firearm owners have to deal with the fall out; Winchester unconcerned, govt unconcerned.

          One might look at government contracting as two (or more) Mafia families working out territories over a conference table; neither will be seriously damaged by the eventual agreement.

        • Sam is correct. Just put this in “Build Back Better” Think as $100m payment to Winchester would ruffle prog filters. They want to blow BILLIONS under BBB. Pencil dust as the idiot former Iowa Demtard Senator Harkin put it.

    • Maybe government just says “we need all that” so there isn’t any overrun.

      Anyway this is the next level of Obama’s green tip ban. Well played Biden! Continues to show he want to go against law abiding gun owners. Of course, he says gun owners don’t need these war weapons so I guess it makes sense to him.

      • there ARE overruns else the order would not end sales of them. contracts are contracts, andif the deal said Winchester can sell off overruns/surplus NOT needed to fill military needs, they can. That probably runs the life of the contract. For gummit to end that part of it withoout compensationg Winchester for their now-denied profits, that’s breach of contract,even if it IS government contract.
        Of course they bear the cost ofcomponents, labour, packagin,g, all the costs of production and distribution. They’ll likley have to lay off 25 to 30% of their current workforce, as the labour costs will no longer return a prifit, or even self-fund.

        I seriously doubt Dopey Joey actually has the authoirty to just step in and breach a military contract. Or even to pressure underlings to do so. He IS CinC, but even generals do not have unlimited authoirty. This is coming from Dopey Joey’s handlers, no doubt. Same louts pressing to disarm us in other ways nd moves. Perhaps a court filing in some friendly district, say,Texas orFlorida, on the bsis that the civilan availblelity is now compromised.

        • “I seriously doubt Dopey Joey actually has the authoirty to just step in and breach a military contract. ”

          Most any contract has a provision for unilateral withdrawal. There may be money paid-out as a consequence, but no one can be forced to complete a contract which they are incapable of performing. Even unilateral termination does not always prevent the terminating company from bidding on future contracts.

          As for government contracts, the government (including the military) has all sorts of protections for early termination. Sometimes the contractor is paid a fee, or premium, for taking the risk, sometimes not.

          In the case at hand, the question would be whether the prime contractor has protections in their contracts with sub-contractors and customers. The vast majority of government contractors know how the game is played, and are unlikely to have zero early termination protections. So long as a contract is not intended for illegal purposes, the participants can put in, or leave out any provison they like; provisions the participants agree to and meet the standards of a valid contract: item/service, and “consideration” (so-called “meeting of the minds”).

          Biden, himself, cannot order contracts modified, or terminated via EO/EA. Only the contracting officer can do that (upon direction of a president, through channels, and an official modification to the contract). Biden, through public statements, can warn a contractor of pending termination/modification. A president’s public statement alone, has no legal standing.

          (How do I know this? The Colonel and I each spent ten or more years with government contracting offices.)

      • “Anyway this is the next level of Obama’s green tip ban. Well played Biden!“

        Actually, it was Republican president Ronald Reagan who signed into law the ban on armor piercing ammunition for civilians:

        “Passed Senate amended (03/06/1986)
        (Measure passed Senate, amended, in lieu of S. 104, roll call #28 (97-1))
        Amends the Federal criminal code to define “armor-piercing ammunition as projectiles constructed from specified material which may be used in handguns. Excludes from the definition: (1) shotgun shot required by Federal or State regulations for hunting; (2) frangible projectiles for target shooting; or (3) projectiles that the Secretary of the Treasury determines are primarily intended for sporting purposes or industrial use.

        Makes it unlawful for any person to manufacture or import armor-piercing ammunition. Allows for: (1) the manufacture or importation of armor-piercing ammunition for the use of the United States or any State or local government; (2) the manufacture for the sole purpose of exportation; and (3) the manufacture or importation for testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary. Allows for the sale and delivery of armor-piercing ammunition for these purposes.“

        https://www.congress.gov/bill/99th-congress/house-bill/3132

        • What’s your purpose in bringing this up? Congress passed a bad law and Saint Ronald signed it way back in the bad old days. And…what?

          What did you just achieve? Do we all have to agree with that law just because Reagan? Do we gasp in shock at the idea of a Republican stabbing us in the back? Do we all hate Reagan now and become Democrats? Help me understand.

        • the benefit is when there are over 200 comments. the little weenie think they’re clever (certainly not limited to this frustrated regurgitator) tldr posts allow a man to plow through much faster.
          sorry to say sam’s lengthy diatribes here about gov’t contracts qualify as well, but that’s an exception.

    • “The contract probably also says .gov can change said contract whenever they want.”

      The contract is easy to find, thanks the FOIA act.

      Read it, and see what’s there…

  7. I’d laugh my ass off if Winchester tells the Army to find someone else to run the Lake City plant and walks out. Or at least if 90% of the employees suddenly got sick for a couple weeks.

  8. Will the ten GOP Senators who agreed to the Cornyn/Murphy deal framework stay on board now? Possibly. Maybe even probably.

    Absolutely.

  9. I expect this to be in litigation for a long time if it happens. Also not sure how appropriations is going to take to this.

  10. Unfortunately, many of us saw this coming. It was too obvious a step to ignore. The right time to buy ammo is always now.

    • Our economy favors large companies and monopolies due to the over regulation. Isn’t it weird that there aren’t more companies making baby formula?

    • Maybe – but the simple fact is that if they are allowed to complete this action, they’ll feel emboldened and try for the next step, which is to revisit the M855 ban Obama tried to do with an executive order.

  11. He’s got record inflation happening on everything else why not ammo too?

    If anything he’s consistent.

    • He started that when he banned Russian ammo. That was a twofer for them. They were laughing their heads off when they came up with that one.

  12. Us and them. Line gets more pronounced everyday. If you complain that just means they’re right and you’re dangerous.

    Good times ahead. My states utility commission just approved a 100% increase to electricity citing higher fuel costs. Electricity is generated with oil and coal. Whodathunkit?!?

    When asked “how could they” they replied “expect further increases come winter.”

    Good times ahead. Gonna be rip-roarin’ fun.

    • I lived through Carter. This azzhole is much worse. Nothing changed for me. Hoarding ammo for the coming apocalypse. Lock n load…

      • Carter probably had a heart. Plus he was in charge of his faculties. Our country is being led by a senile puppet with a black hole where the heart is supposed to be.

    • They’re forcing solar, wind, and batteries on us so the people around 80 years from now will (supposedly) have half a degree of less warming. Get that? They’ve assessed that it would warm anyway. We have to get the entire world on board for that half a degree. The planet has survived huge swings in temperature in the past, but an extra degree 80 years from now will be the end of it! Imagine how much propaganda it took to get us to this point.

      • and in 1968 and 9 they were all knicker-be-knotted over the looing ice age, which would drop sea levels so far the ports of Los Angeles, Long Beach, and San Diego would be unusable due to insufficient water over the harbours to float the freighters. I laughed atthe whole charade, asI KNEW some of those clowns were probabl smoking ditchweed on the sly insteadof researcing their work. Ten years on, and the impending deep freeze switched to the blast furnace meme.

        • “and in 1968 and 9 they were all knicker-be-knotted over the looing ice age“

          Who is “they”?

          You have fallen victim to right wing disinformation:

          “1970s ice age predictions were predominantly media based. The majority of peer reviewed research at the time predicted warming due to increasing CO2.“

          Climate science is far more complex than a few simple soundbites or headlines:

          “The majority of climate scientists predicted warming from CO2 emissions, and data supporting this prediction increased throughout the 1970s. Many lines of evidence continued to build up, all indicating rising temperatures. By about 1980, evidence for warming was so overwhelming that ice age predictions had stopped altogether. This increase in understanding based on new evidence is a key part of the scientific process. Scientific thinking evolves as studies reveal new information. In the case of global warming vs. impending ice age, climatologist Stephen Schneider is an example of this key component of science. He was the second author on the aforementioned Rasool (1971) paper, which asserted that a quadrupling of aerosols would decrease global temperatures and, if this decrease was sustained, might lead into an ice age. However, upon revisiting this conclusion in 1974, when data and climate models had advanced, Schneider retracted the findings:

          “I personally published what was wrong (with) my own original 1971 cooling hypothesis a few years later when more data and better models came along and further analysis showed [anthropogenic global warming] as the much more likely…” (Schneider quoted in Santer & Erlich (2014))

          The prediction of cooling was based on the notion that aerosols from human emissions would quadruple. This increase simply did not happen, thanks in large part to actions like the Clean Air Act. Aerosol emissions actually decreased in the late 1970s, as previously mentioned. Thus, the key aspect of the cooling prediction did not come to pass, and the prediction was abandoned.“

          https://skepticalscience.com/ice-age-predictions-in-1970s-intermediate.htm

        • 1minuteman, thank you for your reply.

          “Your respondent, Miner49er, is a liberal POS“

          So do you have any actual content with which to support your claim?

          Or is your reply just empty speech?

    • “My states utility commission just approved a 100% increase to electricity“

      Wow, a 100% rate increase for an electric utility… And which state would that be?

  13. It doesn’t seem reasonable to fantasize that any big ammo manufacturer is going to damage their relationship with the Feds to benefit their civilian customers especially with likely coming war spending in the picture.

    • ^This.^

      About half of US “ammo” manufacture by dollars is 20mm or larger. A market expected to grow at 3% compounded annually for the foreseeable future.

  14. Just in time for everyone to ditch their $400 AR and $0.30/round 5.56 for an $8000 SIG Spear and $4.00/round .277 Fury! LGB

    • Hey, my $400 AR is now worth $650 at least. Just wait until the supply is squeezed and only the well-connected can procure their license to purchase that weapon of war. Give it a few more years and it will be worth thousands.

      • Let’s define “weapon of war”. We can start with teeth; progress to rocks, sharp sticks, sword, atlatl, bows, black powder guns, right up to the present day. So when the left demands that “weapons of war” be forbidden to civilians they are talking about much more than just AR’s.

        “In the dimness of the shadows
        Where we hairy heathens warred,
        I can taste in thought the lifeblood;
        We used teeth before the sword.” Patton

    • DOD owns the new production line. You actually think dopey ped is going to allow .277SIG civ sales to continue?

  15. Why do we bother to elect Senators and Congressmen if the office of the President can shut down oil production, cut sales of ammo, decimate the essentials like baby formula and whatever other crazy whim that someone (Obama) whispers into his ear?

    • I’m old enough to remember them impeaching Trump for just delaying funds allocated to Ukraine. (Isn’t it funny how all roads lead to Ukraine?) It was so inconsequential, that Ukraine didn’t even realize it was delayed! We need more details, but Congress sets the funding.

      • Miner49er,

        There were reports alleging that the Abbott baby formula plant distributed contaminated baby formula which prompted a federal government executive agency (probably the Food and Drug Administration) to order the formula plant to shut down. That shut-down order remained in force for four months which caused a severe baby formula shortage in the United States.

        Newsflash: it takes about FOUR DAYS, NOT FOUR MONTHS to clean a food-processing plant and resume contamination-free operations. The only rational conclusion is that the federal government shut down that baby formula plant for punitive/nefarious reasons.

        The simple fact of the matter is that the federal government Executive Branch controls all of the regulatory agencies which can and do shut down anything and everything that they want at will–or at the direction of the President if it comes to that. Note that it would literally take an act of Congress–including overriding the virtually guaranteed Presidential veto–to rescind a regulatory agency’s authority. I am not aware of a single instance where that has ever happened. And it will never happen as long as The Establishment controls the United States House and Senate.

        Thus, the very principle which Maddmaxx stated is the de facto situation.

        • “Newsflash: it takes about FOUR DAYS, NOT FOUR MONTHS to clean a food-processing plant and resume contamination-free operations“

          “FOUR DAYS”?

          Upon reflection, you may want to retract your opinion.

  16. Well, the American Dream is out there for someone wanting to make a capital investment in components and/or ammunition. Some of those w/ auto drives should step up their game.

  17. An increasing amount of 5.56 is being made in Russia and in Israel. Expect importation bans on ammo next.

    At which point we ought to just call the drug cartels and ask them how much for them to just drive a truckload over the border and drop it off?

    • Unless included in a current contract with an import license, the feds have banned importation of ammo from Russia. Most of the existing contracts will expire next year, if not cut off by Pukin before hand.

    • Russian ammo imports banned Apr2021. Try to keep up.

      Mountains of the crap was sitting in the pipeline/warehouses so can still find on store shelves. For the moment.

  18. Wait… So this only applies to green tip?
    Not the 77gr OTM or 55gr FMJ?
    If that’s the case I just stopped caring.
    Are people really buying lots of green tip?

    • It’s already happening. Many small businesses that remain after The Purge still haven’t recovered from Covid tyranny. It isn’t going to get bad. It’s going from bad to worse on a daily basis.

  19. OK, the federal government owns the production facility. Some how the owner of a federal production facility cannot determine who, what and how something manufactured at that facility cannot be subject to federal control?

    Play with the feds, and you play by the fed rules. Only dim Dimocrats would cut off a source of government income because it benefits non-government entities.

    Only dim Dimocrats would believe that withdrawing ammo from civilian sales would cripple the firearms industry. Dims generically do not understand business; the shortage will be made up by other companies. Dims are always surprised that when they make rules, somehow people find alternatives. These are the same people who demand higher MPG performance from automobiles, then complain that fuel taxes are declining.

  20. America is still a capitalist economy to the shigrin of all Democrats and 80 percent of the Republicans. Some entity will step in and fill the void if the SS109 is banned. Look around you. All of our firearms and ammunition competency is leaving occupied States and relocating in Free States.

    What you need to be concerned about is an end around ban on components by these Communists. Don’t think they haven’t looked into it. I spent over 25 years selling to ammunition manufacturers. Right now, there are decision makers considering how they can stand in the gap if this ban materializes.

    Big Picture: Repeal the 17th Amendment. Let the States dispatch and recall national Senators at their pleasure per the intents of our Founders. Doing so, will eliminate alot of the treachery we have endured for decades.

    • “Let the States dispatch and recall national Senators at their pleasure per the intents of our Founders. Doing so, will eliminate alot of the treachery we have endured for decades.”

      Depends.

      17th Amendment was ratified as a means to prevent governors from appointing cronies who would be beholding for the government for national legislation. One cannot possibly believe that having, or repealing, the 17th can actually prevent corruption of Senators. “Power corrupts; PowerPoint corrupts absolutely”.

      • The 16th and 17th amendments were the worst things that have ever happened to this nation. The constitution established a republic, and 130 years later the American people answered Ben Franklin’s “if you can keep it” with a resounding “we don’t want it.”

        The entire federal leviathan, and thus our current predicament, stems from those two shortsighted, ill-considered “progressive” amendments.

        Without the direct appointment of senators, states no longer had any direct influence over the federal government — and we no longer had a federated republic. Corruption and cronyism didn’t go away. Instead, they got massively bigger and remote, and became more difficult to detect and virtually impossible to correct.

        With income taxes going directly into central government coffers, states lost financial leverage over the national government and lost a large measure of control over their own budgets. Leviathan gorged itself and grew, and the limit to its size and reach hasn’t yet been found.

        • “Leviathan gorged itself and grew, and the limit to its size and reach hasn’t yet been found.”

          Can’t argue with that.

          The current situation is a result of having, within the Constitution, a means to modify the Constitution.

  21. So, we changing calibers then? Considering the US Military won’t be using 5.56 for too much longer, this move is not really surprising. It might be a step on the tail of the snake on the yellow flag, but that’s nothing new. The only thing I hope comes from all this is these ammo/gun makers flip the bird to doing deals with the fed. But they won’t. No money in doing that. Seems like an insider move by the elites at SIG to take over Winchesters spot and cut out the competition more than anything else.

      • “This has nothing to do with Sig and everything to do with government tyranny.”

        We are just now becoming wary of government contract operations? Government is not obligated to support massive military use of ammunition calibers favored by the private sector.

        Interesting how many people here are suspicious of government, but howl when a favored government support for private ownership of guns is eliminated….by government. Face it….we all like government intrusion into our lives when we benefit.

        • Ah, no. We are not “just” wary. I worked for a member of Congress in the previous century. I have seen up close and personal how F-d up the federal government is. And, no, we all don’t like government intrusion when it benefits us personally. Some of us have principles.

          For some idiotic reason, you do not seem to connect the dots here. I am not sure why the government needs to be in the ammo business for civilians in the first place. But here we are, at the mercy of stupid people making decisions for large populations. That always works out, huh? And when I say “always works out” I mean “never works out.”

        • Your ignorance of Government contract law is prodigious. I was a Government contract and procurement specialist as long as you rubbed elbows with some colonel. Before you ignorantly pontificate on here about Government contracts, perhaps you should learn how Government contracts really work. Your babbling is both confusing and misleading for those who really want to know how these type contracts really work.l

        • “We get comfortable with government largess, then whine like children when the freebies end“

          “To the privileged, equality feels like oppression”

    • “So, we changing calibers then?”

      We get comfortable with government largess, then whine like children when the freebies end. The military likely will always be the single major consumer of small arms ammunition. Civilians benefit because the manufacturers already have capability to produce, and it is to their advantage to extend the customer base.

      The question for ammo producers will be/is whether or not the civilian market for their production is sufficient to make the desired profit. .45/70 ammo would be quite plentiful, if there were a robust market for it. Also note that firearm manufacturers would need to accommodate a change in standard ammunition calibre, also. Noticing that there are an alleged 100million gun owners. Did all their guns become obsolete when caliber changes were made by the military?

      When the elephant rolls over, flies get squished. Adapt or die.

        • “flies are way fast, bra.”

          Being cryptic can be useful at times. Not sure this forum/blog is the place for it.

        • not ticks, flies. although if a heffalump rolled on a tick he would send him to his crypt.
          as long as i’m entertaining meself i’m in the right spot.

    • I’ve heard from several online sources the M5 first run will only be about 120,000 units. Only some units will use them. The rest will still use 5.56 M4 type weapons.

      My son thinks, based on his experience, the full power 80,000 psi 6.8×51 won’t be fun to shoot. Especially for those who have not handled anything more than 5.56 before. The lower power training ammo wouldn’t be as bad, but barrel life is going to be short.

      It looks like the US Army is finally getting the ideal gun for Afghanistan.

      • “won’t be fun to shoot“

        Correct, with double the muzzle energy of the 5.56, it will be back to the complaints about the M14 recoil.

        And that makes sense, the new cartridge is based on the 7.62 x 51 case, With a steel casehead allowing even higher pressures.

      • In other words the chick/soldierettes. The M5 is going to rifle companies. Keep the chicks where they belong, and they won’t ever be seeing/fondling an M5.

  22. I knew it was a bumb deal when Winchester got the Lake City contract. I think all emu companies have to kiss the govs ass to remain in operation though. Most all the propellant used in manufacture is imported. I doubt Johnny Bob’s Bullits would get the thumbs up from the government to sale emu to the citizens. It’s by the grace of .gov we have any emu at all.
    I love our President Joseph Robinett Biden
    We all love our President, those who do not are unamerican and need to be re-educated and if that is not possible disposed of.
    Lead the way to New America my glorious benevolent giving President, my allegiance is unto you.
    All Hail King Biden.

    • possum….

      Why should any government contractor be expected to open up sales/services to the public? Why should government be expected to use contractors to make product for civilian use?

      Government refusal to plan its needs around private consumption of something is not “tranny.” Tyranny would be when government “forces” Winchester to manufacture ammunition, without just compensation, simply because government can arrest and jail the company executives for failing to produce items for free. Tyranny would be if government passed a bill (or decree) that no ammunition can be manufactured, or imported into the country, for “civilian use”.

      • Our government has an obligation to make every single policy decision for the benefit of American citizens. What we’ve been witnessing is the exact opposite of that. As others have pointed out, it can’t all be due to incompetence which means the government is against the citizens.

        • “Our government has an obligation to make every single policy decision for the benefit of American citizens.”

          And that translate into an obligation to build ammunition production capable of feeding the civilian market?

          The benefit to “the people” is clear: sufficient amounts of ammunition to meet military and foreign policy needs. I would argue that even manufacturing ammunition surplus to military needs is wasteful government spending. Such a condition puts greater burden on the systems of ammo production, requiring earlier replacement than necessary for fulfilling military needs; providing surplus ammo production to the public is prudent use of taxpayer money. Reduction in costs of production actually is beneficial to “the people”.

          Under your theory of “obligation to make every single policy decision for the benefit of American citizens.” Sets up an absolute standard that cannot be met: government can make no policy decision that disadvantages any American citizen.

        • “cannot be met: government can make no policy decision that disadvantages any American citizen.”

          And why can’t that be met? As long as we have equality of opportunity, and the government stops their practice of picking winners and losers, then why can’t that happen?

          My statement about the government’s obligation was a general statement, and not necessarily related to this article. I’ve come to expect the worse from our government due to their recent terrible decisions about pretty much everything.

  23. “For some idiotic reason, you do not seem to connect the dots here.”

    Not so. Government control over a federally-owned, leased, or contracted production facility is not “tyranny”, of any sort. That was my whole point. Government instruction to federally-owned production facility ordering that surplus production of govern-order items not be sold commercially is not “tyranny” of any sort.

    Declaring that government is somehow obligated to allow ammunition suppliers to sell surplus production into the civilian market is just dumb. And yes, since people who generally distrust government are complaining about some benefit being removed by government is simply admission that people who distrust government are quite happy when they benefit from government intrusion (civilian ammo production) into their lives.

    Persons with “principles” would know from whence their ammunition comes, and refuse to buy surplus production from a government contract. Same with Russian and Chinese ammunition; “principled” persons would do everything possible to avoid being involved with commercial transactions that benefit Russia and China (no, buying from US subsidiaries of Russian and Chinese companies is not “different”).

    In the end, we are all hypocrites about our principles. It is the denying of it that is the real dishonesty.

    • Carry your own double standard into battle.

      I have never purchased steel cased ammo. I don’t buy Russian or Turkish. Never have owned an AK either. I wont even buy other brands like Sony or Nike.

      You will not find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.

      My primary loyalties are with American and Italian made. You do what you can in life but I see no reason at all to do certain things. Sometimes your left with no other choice. Buying American is not always an option. Certainly as I build computers, financially supporting Foxconn becomes compulsory. But that does not mean being happy about it.

      • “I have never purchased steel cased ammo. I don’t buy Russian or Turkish. Never have owned an AK either.“

        I completely agree, it’s ridiculous to support the arms industries of our foreign adversaries.

      • “Carry your own double standard into battle.”

        Indeed.

        In reality, we all are guilty of double standards, “I believe in my principles, but….”. Reality is, as you noted, that it is near impossible (maybe completely impossible) to avoid spending money to support the economies of sworn enemies. Being unhappy about it does not erase the double standard. Government policies that put citizens in the position of having no alternative but supporting enemy economies are difficult to overcome/erase.

    • …simply admission that people who distrust government are quite happy when they benefit from government intrusion…

      Or were wholly unaware of it and have become alarmed up discovery of uncomfortable facts, as is often the case.

      • “Or were wholly unaware of it and have become alarmed up discovery of uncomfortable facts, as is often the case.”

        Yes, there’s that.

  24. Seems that quite a few people just are not getting it.

    Biden is liquidating, reducing, removing, and destroying as much of America as he possibly can. There is NOTHING to stand in his way and THAT is the consequences of our elected leaders at the state and federal level snubbing every effort Trump made as the 2020 election played out.

    We can correctly refer to this as treasonous but too many people on both sides WILL allow it. This is ‘the swamp’.

    Contracts do NOT matter. Nor does any other item of American tradition. We have been watching destruction play out as so many people are doing things they do not have the authority to do. Yet they all get away with it. Do you really think Obama had the authority to force American companies to turn all their restrooms coed? Yet Target went along with it. One of the biggest reasons Biden got into office in the first place was that the election process was allowed to be transferred from legislatures to state judges. It never mattered that it was unconstitutional. The authority was NOT there to do that but they did it anyway and we just accepted it. This will get even crazier as we get closer the the mid terms.

    It’s the same thing with Ralph Northam. Lina Hildago does all kinds of things she is not authorized to do.

    Do you really believe that Winchester will do anything at all in resistance to this? What did Colt do?

    Meanwhile, where is all the .357 and .38spl? It’s been over two years since I’ve seen a single box of .357Mag on any shelf. For many, it’s that way with 38. These are not NATO like 5.56 and 9mm. Why is that?

    • Ralph Northam had to distract people from his racist past. He was willing to do anything after that came out. I wonder if he wouldn’t have been quite as radical if his past had stayed in the past. As usual, the Republicans were too “classy” to hammer that photo during election season.

    • ‘Meanwhile, where is all the .357 and .38spl? It’s been over two years since I’ve seen a single box of .357Mag on any shelf.’

      Scheels in the Colony (Plano, Texas) has tons of it. The prices are still high though.

    • “We can correctly refer to this as treasonous…”

      Precisely, who is the “enemy” here? Without an “enemy” there is no way to give “aid and comfort” to an enemy.

      There is no constitutional requirement that the government allow private industry to benefit from government contracts, beyond the government and companies holding government contracts.

      We do like us some government intervention into our lives when we benefit.

      Please note that the next president can order SecDef to use contracting authority to construct a new contract for ammo production, wherein ammo surplus to the needs of the military can be sold into the commercial. Heck, such a restoration wouldn’t necessarily even require a new contract, but a simple modification of a current one.

      What we are dealing with here is a contract issue, not a constitutional crisis (nor an existential threat to “democracy”.

      • Give it up Sam, the drama queens on here all want justification for the anger they’re experiencing so they’re not willing to listen to your reasoned comments.

        It’s clear they want taxpayers to subsidize ammo manufacturing so they can get a good deal on some green tip, their self interest is the extent of their patriotism.

        • Really, we’re subsidizing ammo for the government, not the other way around.

          Lake City has more capacity than the government needs for peacetime. If we ever need to go to full-scale war, the armed forces will need that capacity.

          By not idling lines and workers via selling ammo to the public, we enable that shock capacity.

          In short, we subsidize military ammo production capacity. And it would be democratishly foolish to end that.

      • We do like us some government intervention into our lives when we benefit.

        If government offered no to benefit to us why would be allow government to exist unmolested? We go to great lengths to weed out such parasitic behavior in society and generally within our species, why would be treat government differently? The answer is that we wouldn’t allow such a thing to exist unmolested. We would marshall enormous resources against it in an attempt to stamp it out.

        Where government offers no benefit, or reduces existing benefit, it is the right of the people in a Republic to take note of this issue and rectify it. That’s kinda the original point of the US.

        The real issue here, IMHO, is two-fold.

        First, there’s the ignorance of where things come from. All in all this is pretty small compared to the folks who think that food just appears at a grocery store but it is still a problem of a complex interconnected world and we should try to fix that as much as is rationally possible.

        Second, there’s the issue of contract law. Now, I don’t pretend to know what Winchester’s contract actually says. However, if they have a contract that stipulates that they may, at their discretion, sell excess ammo produced at Lake City to the public (which by the by, it seems the people have already paid for with tax money…) and Biden has told them that this is no longer the case then Biden has used government power to quash a contract, which is neither a power granted to the Executive nor a proper function of government. In fact, it’s the antithesis of the proper function of government.

        If the government has quashed part of a legal contract then contract law has been undermined and therefore the government is actively undermining the Rule of Law yet again. Such behavior destroys trust in both government and is generally corrosive to society, which leads us back to the first point.

        This is how you ended up with the lines in the Declaration of Independence that state “That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

        • “However, if they have a contract that stipulates that they may, at their discretion, sell excess ammo produced at Lake City to the public (which by the by, it seems the people have already paid for with tax money…) and Biden has told them that this is no longer the case then Biden has used government power to quash a contract…”

          Not at all.

          First, Biden is not a contracting officer with legal warrant to sign contracts obligating the government. Biden cannot unilaterally terminate, or modify a contract. Biden can order the appropriate agency to make contract changes, but no public statement by a president has legal standing, or acts as a “verbal” unilateral contract change.

          Second, no contract is scripture, cast in stone, immutable, unalterable. When two, or more, parties come together for the purpose of creating a contract, those persons are duly authorized, at any point in the future, to agree to modification of that contract. Those entities may also agree to terminate an existing contract for any reason the entities decide to agree to. So it is with government, and companies who contract with the government. All quite proper, and legal.

          In the Winchester contract, government has the power within the Executive Branch, to add or subtract contract terms and conditions through the use of contract modifications (amendments). Unless the contract states that under certain conditions (and assuming such condition exists) government may issue a unilateral contract change, a contract modification would require government and Winchester to negotiate the contract change/modification. Doing so violates no law, or provision of the Constitution, whether the modification requires adding deliveries from the contractor, or curtailing deliveries. Contract modifications are also a common activity among civilian contracts, where private companies engage each other.

        • “Biden” in this sense refers to his administration and those employed by it including, but not limited to, agencies controlled by or under the auspices of the Executive of the Federal government. So yes, it’s “Biden” doing it. Had this happened under the Trump administration it would have been “Trump” doing it. What is done in the name of the Executive is, for all practical intents and purposes, done by the Executive even if they are unaware of it. Something about buck stopping.

          As for immutable, I never said that. Contracts are modified or amended all the time. However, this generally requires both parties to agree to modifications or, in more extreme cases, Amendments. Unilateral-modification clauses do exist and Winchester might have allowed such a contract provision in the contract that they signed, but I doubt it because .gov would lose a lot of legal rights doing that and they have other options anyway. IIRC, government contracts often contain “Changes Clause”s (it’s different, codified by some late 1970’s law the name of which I forget).

          However, there’s a decent body of law on that topic and, again, IIRC, .gov is fairly limited in the scope of changes it can make unless it can show that there was an error made in the initial contract. In such a case .gov can either attempt to make the contractor happy or reopen bidding. The changes they can make wouldn’t be something like this, they’re limited to affecting the product the government is getting (materials used, production method etc), which in this case they’re, by definition, not getting the product and therefore can’t really argue that they need to make specific changes to the product or production method of the product that… they’re not getting.

          Again, I don’t think any of us know exactly what’s in this contract, so perhaps Winchester signed something they wish they didn’t, but unless such a contract gives .gov unilateral authority to rewrite the contract as it pleases (which is essentially no contract at all and not something .gov would have done) then the contract probably cannot be altered like this without Winchester agreeing to the details of the amendment and signing on the line stating as such. If it does contain a “Changes Clause” then there’s a serious question of if this is an applicable use of that clause.

          Which isn’t to say that .gov couldn’t browbeat Winchester into agreeing to modification/amendment with threat of future loss of business, but that would again come back to unethical behavior on the part of .gov that undermines the Rule of Law and confidence in government.

          Yes, government can write up a new contract. They may even have a termination clause in the current one. What they very likely can’t do is modify or amend an active contract in this manner without permission of the other party, for the other party to have acquiesced to such a thing would basically nullify the concept of pacta sunt servanda and therefore the entire purpose of the contract.

          None of which gets around the point that outside of people who actually pay attention (not most people) or lawyers (scumbags) most people who see such a thing will think government has put its thumb on the scale in writing the laws, regulations and the contract itself (inarguably the government has done this) and respect for Rule of Law will suffer, undermining the raison d’être of government at a time when government credibility is already circling the drain.

  25. They no what’s coming. Its the Civil War the left wants or should I say the Revolution.

    Why did the ATF attempt to count guns! According to them 700 in circulation.

    In history Communists only leave by force, the barrel of a gun.

    The numbers are against them.

    NOTE to the Communist Regime of Biden; the Russians couldn’t take Kiev what makes you think we will submit?

  26. Topic aside, the statement “John Cornyn and Chris Murphy pulled out all of the stops to hammer out a compromise deal in the Senate that got 10 Republicans to sign on” is inaccurate, regardless of what either side calls it. Absolutely nothing has been offered to firearm owners in return. If I propose taking from you and then we both agree it’s OK for me to take slightly less, that is not a “compromise” but rather a negotiated agreement. RKBA supporters never should allow the firearm prohibition lobby to control the language of the non-debate unchallenged.

  27. A different POV:

    What if this has nothing to do with the commercial market, but is the Biden admin prepping for direct US troops involvement/escalation in the Ukraine/Russian war?

    Historically war-time presidents see a big bump in their approval ratings. With high inflation, food prices, fuel prices going through the roof, likely recession on the horizon, would this admin actually be willing to risk WWIII just to get their numbers up, and prevent the on coming Red Tidal Wave in the mid-terms?

  28. Lake City is owned by the U.S. Government. Winchester is involved because they operate the plant on contract. Part of that contract is that Winchester is able to sell to the public the ammunition produced in excess of the government need (not just the military, although most of the ammo does go to the military).

    ‘needs’, that’s going to be the point here. What Biden is actually doing is basically declaring it all ‘military’ (or government) ‘need’ and this effectively shuts down the sale of the excess ammo to the civilian market. If ALL is ‘government need’ then it includes the ‘excess’ as ‘government need’ also thus eliminating the designation of ‘excess’ that Winchester uses to sell what the government does not order for use.

    The excess produced was never actually excess. The government orders a certain amount of ammo, but the plant has a standard set amount it produces due to government requirements and guarantee to Winchester and all that standard set amount may not all be ordered by the government in a given year (it never is), thus there is what is classified as ‘excess’ and Winchester is permitted to sale ‘excess’ to the public. But in reality it was always that produced by government requirement intended for the government and they simply did not use it thus the ‘excess’. All this is paid for by the American tax payer, by extension the American tax payer owns that ammo but the public bought that excess from Winchester thus essentially paid for it twice and the government took a cut of the profit Winchester made.

    Winchester took the contract because, in part, they were permitted to profit from sale of the excess in addition to being paid to run the plant. With this profit stream shut down, I expect that Winchester will either/or a combination ; 1 – Winchester will complain loudly about it and threaten to abandon the contract, 2 – Winchester will increase production in their own plants of .223/5.56 ammunition and sell that to the public.

    I also expect that other manufacturers will increase production to fill the market void left by this Biden action. But in reality, although this ‘excess’ ammo was about 30% of the ammo purchased by the civilian market it does not mean there will be less .223/5.56 ammunition. This figure is based upon that which was purchased, not that which is available in the market, in other words the Lake City ammo isn’t really 30% of the market supply but rather is 30% of that purchased in the whole of the market supply – so buy another brand manufacturer. Other manufacturers also make it and have been making it and its just people bought the Winchester ‘excess’ instead of the other ‘brands’.

    If we look at it closely, there was a shortage of .223/5.56 ammunition already due to the pandemic related buying and hoarding but manufacturers are coming back up to pre-pandemic production levels and the price of ammo although still higher than before is stabilizing and falling some (but how fall the prices will go down is unknown). But in the long run, the civilian market is not going to miss the ‘excess’ output from the Lake City plant.

    My brother and I used to participate in lot buys of ammo of all types, factory production excesses – anyone could if they were on the manufacturers certified buyers list, plus sometimes there were advertised lot sales to the general public. We picked it up for as little as a penny per round, hundreds to thousands of rounds lots. Sometime we would arrange for pick up and delivery to us, sometimes we would go pick it up our selves. Wev’e picked up many a lot at the Lake City plant as well as from other manufacturers facilities.

    But, this move by Biden, is probably more about desperation and trying to look like he is doing something. Biden and his democrat and his other radical left wing pals know that in the end, by the end of Biden’s hopefully only one-term as president, that his and their outright hostile personal agenda attack on the rights of law abiding Americans by attacking the Second Amendment Right will overall not reach the conclusion he and they had hoped for. And its pretty likely most if not all of any “success” they claim will be ruled unconstitutional at SCOTUS or negated by a Republican president and congress getting rid of all or most of it in the next Republican administration.

    • The Winchester ‘excess’ sales to the public was really an oddity in the market. The manufacturing was/is paid for by the Government (tax payer tax dollars). That the ‘excess’ could be sold was only because of the contract arrangement with Winchester. In reality, excluding the ‘Winchester excess’, the market overall produced more including Winchester in their own plants.

      • Booger has it right, I think. Winchester will sue as fedzilla can’t change the terms in the middle of the contract. But even if they could, the plan is stupid (like Biden) and won’t work.

        Either Winchester will slow down production to save costs or demand fedzilla take delivery of all they produce. If the former then all the raw materials that would have gone to Lake City will be available on the market. If the latter fedzilla will end up storing it till the next Republican administration sells it as surplus.

        Heads Biden looses, tails Biden looses. We will pay more in the short term and less in the medium to long term.

      • Oh, also to add; Part of the excess is ammo is ammo rejected because it has not been tested against military-spec or does not meet military-spec for something minor. Not that it doesn’t work, because it does. They designate all this excess, even the rejected, with a “x” in front of the designation, for example, ‘xm193’ where as ammo marked with just an ‘m’ in front, for example, ‘m193’ has been tested under and does meet military-spec.

        For all practical reasons and use, there is no difference between, for example, ‘xm193’ and ‘m193’ for the public market.

        generally and basically, a production run of ammo in a time frame is made ‘excess’ when the government order is filled by ammo that has been tested under and passed military-spec testing and requirements, and there is ammo left from the production run. This is because a certain amount of ammo is required to be produced but the government doesn’t order all of it. So after the government orders were filled they simply designated it excess and slapped it with the ‘x’ and it was sold off into the civilian market in its own packaging.

        • Just a note and clarification. In the above the ‘xm’ designation has changed over time, in some products from Lake City the ‘xm’ does not appear. If the ammo is made at Lake City and is excess it will have an XM or PD lot number designation. If its made on contract for other buyers it will have an SMQ lot number designation. If its made for the military or government use and meets mil-spec testing requirements it will just have the ‘M’. PD means bulk packaging (mixed head stamps – can be sold to the public, but usually only certified buyers, in large bulk packaging lots, my brother and I bought a lot of this – usually its cheaper or was around a penny per round sometimes 1/2 cent per round), SMQ means ammunition that was made on contract for other buyers (yes, the government produces ammo on contract for other buyers), and the XM designation is same head stamp for public sale.

    • Me too, but we don’t have many allies hidden in the administration. Mostly the leaks we get are one of them stabbing another in the back or trying to prove how well connected they are.

  29. most of the lake city ammo sold is either contract overrun or rejected product marked “x”… so it is fair game indeed… because they must fill the void created by the rejection during govt inspections or lost $$$ of the govt refusing to pay for the surplus product…they cant leave it in inventory for tax purpose…also epa & hazmat storage fee cost..tell the govt to urinate up 10 feet of rope instead..

  30. Contract? Bah, what contract? The construction firms that were laying pipe and erecting fencing had contracts also. A whisper in Placeholder Biden’s ear, and it all ended overnight. Penalties and lawsuits? Pffft, he can print all the money he needs for payoffs. It’s the principle of the thing, after all, that counts, come hell or high water. And, “hell or high water” are obviously part of the plan.

    • before you SPEAK check the facts… the only reason we end up with govt surplus is either contract overun, trade in or rejection during inspection process/ factory seconds… the ammo companies always make more than the contract states to conteract ammo rejected by the agency…if it is rejected it is simply repackaged and has an “x” in the classification example “x”m193 or xm855.. they must declass all govt ammo and put it in a non govt box.. just like all govt police trade in ammo or contact overun pistol and shotgun ammo from our govt or foriegn govts..most of the time it is a plain white box with no color except black..

  31. Ok serious question.
    How do they know it is the same run? How do they know what is considered excess?
    This new requirement seems unenforceable. In fact given that this plant supplies 30% of the ammunition used by such rifles in the US, how big is the contract? It might make sense for them to dump the contract and sell to the civilian and international market.

    • Winchester can’t “dump the contract and sell to civilians”, they don’t own the plant.

      That is a basic fact that most on here seem oblivious to.

    • “plant supplies 30% of the ammunition used by such rifles in the US”

      The plant doesn’t supply “30% of the ammunition used by such rifles in the US”.

      The plant supplied 30% of what was purchased because people chose to purchase it, the 30% is not 30% of the market supply.

      Although this ‘excess’ ammo was about 30% of the ammo purchased by the civilian market it does not mean there will be less .223/5.56 ammunition. This figure is based upon that which was purchased because people made the choice to purchase it, its not that which is available in the market. In other words the Lake City ammo isn’t really 30% of the market supply but rather is 30% of that purchased in the whole of the market supply – so buy another brand manufacturer product.

      The lake city ammo was an oddity drop in the bucket for the market supply. The Winchester ‘excess’ sales to the public was really an oddity in the market. The manufacturing was/is paid for by the Government (tax payer tax dollars). That the ‘excess’ could be sold was only because of the contract arrangement with Winchester. In reality, excluding the ‘Winchester excess’, the market overall produced more including Winchester in their own plants.

    • “Ok serious question.
      How do they know it is the same run? How do they know what is considered excess?”

      Lot numbers. All work on large government contracts must be auditable (DOD contracts can be subjected to financial audits up to three years after the contract ends; Defense Contract Audit Agency [DCAA]).

      Payment for labor, tools and materials must be accompanied by documentation (or documentation made available to back up billings) when submitting billing to the government. Government would expect existence of proof that Winchester is not intentionally building production for the civilian market, charging everything to the government.

      There is a government contract type (“commercial contract”) that uses unit pricing from a published catalog available to anyone who wishes to purchase “Off The Shelf” units or services. It has been awhile, and it is possible that production runs/lots are irrelevant to the transaction (but the supplier likely knows the details of lot numbers, sub-contract details, etc). An advantage is that such contracts are easier to create and manage. A disadvantage is that government has limitations on detailing specifications, unique requirements, and government oversight at production or distribution locations.

      • basically, anything that is not used to fill existing government orders is excess – in other words over runs. The over runs are ‘intentional’, they are required to produce so much in a time frame but the government doesn’t order all of it normally so there is always an ‘over run’ and whats left after the government orders are filled is designated excess. The over runs are intentional, its in case there is a sudden emergency surge in needed ammo demand by the government, for example, we went to war, so there is always ‘excess’ in the production to help take up the slack in an emergency need situation.

      • “basically, anything that is not used to fill existing government orders is excess – in other words over runs.”

        Agreed.

        Think the question does not revolve around why “overruns” exist, but what is to be done with “overruns”. If the contract does not dictate disposition of “overruns”, Winchester should request clarification through contract mod. Perhaps in this instance, government is on the verge of issuing a contract mod either adding clarification, or changing clarification.

        Bottom line is that Winchester, as a company, is not being entirely restricted from producing ammunition for the commercial market. Government is not mandated/obligated to purchase military ammunition is such a way that the commercial market is benefited.

  32. Remember when Obama wanted to ban the sale of the infamous green tip ammo? It never bothered me because I reload. And the ban failed anyway.

    Primers are tough to find but things are starting to open up. And the rest of the components are readily available

  33. Winchester just won the contract to run the Lake City plant in 2019 and took full management control of the Lake City plant in the Fall of 2020. It is a government owned and contractor managed plant that has had different contractors running it over the years since 1941. Remington operated the plant the longest from 1941 to 1985. Winchester also won the contract to produce the new Army 6.8 ammo also at the same Lake City plant. The SIG and Winchester combo seems to be winning a lot of military contracts lately. Biden’s next step will be to eliminate M193 55gr excess ammo from us, which will really hurt our abilities to run our firearms. They are taking the baby steps to increase the price of ammo and increase the demand so we can not afford to buy ammo again. Just a targeted attack on us.

  34. @Diksum
    “If the Government now prevents Winchester from exercising an element of the contract, they have breached the contract.”

    You are operating under a gross misconception of how government contracts work. Recommend a look at the Federal Acquisition Regulation (FAR) for better understanding:
    https://www.acquisition.gov/browse/index/far

    Received from the Government Printing Office, FAR is a book about three inches thick. In it are all the ways a contract can be modified (a form of re-negotiating a contract). Making changes (amendments) to a contract is a routine action between government and contractors.

    “Big” contracts, with “Big” contractors, often carry a clause wherein government can unilaterally terminate/cancel a contract “for the convenience of the government”. Such terminations may have processes identified where the government indemnifies the contractor, some terminations do not. Even with a unilateral termination, a contract modification is required, and terms of that modification can sometimes result in “negotiations” regarding if, as, and when government will mitigate unexpected costs to the contractor.

    In the non-government contracting arena, a significant number of contracts are established under the Uniform Commercial Code (similar to FAR). Many contracts are not established under the UCC. In all, contracts may be constructed in any manner (other than illegal) the parties agree to. Under the UCC, contracts may be established without written agreement, and if the parties make changes to how the contract is operated, without written modification, the change can sometimes be declared valid if there are no written objections to the change.

    “Breach of Contract” is not so common as people like to think. In the current case, a president has no power to unilaterally terminate a contract. A directive to terminate the contract may come from a president, but until the designated federal contracting officer writes a modification to the contract, the contract remains in tact.

    Indeed, in the ’80s, there was a case where the SecDef ordered a contractor to cease operations. The contractor did so, then sued government for failure to follow FAR (the case might be considered a “breach of contract”, but it was done purposely to give the contractor legal standing to sue for more compensation that would have been available under the terms of the contract.

    BTW, in “Breach of Contract” actions, it is not common that courts will order the party initiating the breach to continue the contract as written. Remedy for contract breaches are more commonly financial settlements. Sometimes, it develops that one party is devoid of financial resources to even compensate the plaintiff.

    As noted before, companies contracting with government tend to read “the fine print” in their contracts as a means to avoid being disadvantaged by government actions. Major government contractors, unlike us, are not innocent sheep being tricked into unknowingly putting their companies at naked risk.

    The fallout from the reported change in the Winchester ammo production contract will not materially harm Winchester; it is the public feeding off the largess of government who find themselves upset over the removal of an unwarranted government benefit. From the beginning, Winchester’s contract could have stipulated a different disposition of “surplus to government needs” ammunition, with none of it flowing to individuals.

    • “clause wherein government can unilaterally terminate/cancel a contract “for the convenience of the government”. Such terminations may have processes identified where the government indemnifies the contractor, some terminations do not. Even with a unilateral termination, a contract modification is required, ”

      You are absolutely correct! (never thought I’d say that).

      And that was the point I was trying to make before. They can cancel a contract but they can’t make anyone that doesn’t want to negotiate for a new one. Winchester would probably be thrilled if they made this a new term of the contract and Winchester could just say “we’re out! Find someone else!”

      • “You are absolutely correct! (never thought I’d say that). ”

        Nothing remarkable; simple “blind squirrel moment”.

        However, I must say, “I may sometimes be wrong, but I am always right.”

  35. @Paul
    “Government may have shot itself in the foot – or maybe even the thigh.”

    TBD. Depends on the damage imagined. In the end, government rarely finds itself without a contracting partner for some identified need. People seeking government contracts have even signed onto a Firm Fixed Price (FFP) research and development contract for a product with no counterpart, or complete identification of the risks. Government contractors also frequently agree to contracts for Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) where zero product/service is ultimately ordered.

    Government contracting is one of the most complex, convoluted, business activities that a private company can undertake.

  36. “Your ignorance of Government contract law is prodigious.”

    The Colonel was a government contracting officer for 20yrs, engaged in acquiring major weapon systems for the Air Force. I a government contract specialist for 10yrs. It would be instructive for me, if you would specifically lay out where I wrote anything that is not in FAR.

  37. How much of the 30% share that LC produces are M855/SS109 penetrator??? How much impact Will removing “green tip” from the market have.

  38. @uncommon_sense
    “Fedzilla has not been our friend for the last 50+ years although fedzilla largely put on a nice face and publicly pretended to be our friend.”

    No argument here.

    OTH, contract disputes between government and contractors has a long history, and government does not win every case, and contractors do not lose every case. One that I worked on (noted earlier), DOD orchestrated a flawed contract termination so that the contractor could recover more costs on an FFP contract, than was available under contract provisions; government paid in full.

    Point of all this is that a change in contract terms and conditions is not “tyranny”, period. Government not permitting Winchester to sell “surplus to needs” ammunition is not “tyranny”. Enacted legislation the forbids any and all production of ammunition for use by the general public would be an attempt at tyranny.

    Note: Just for fun, “Tyrant” was a title, an ancient Greek word for “Chief”, or maybe “Boss”. It was not a word to describe a despot. Then, of course, usage and meaning changed over the millennia.

  39. @Dude
    “I think Trump’s election sped up the inevitable removal of fedzilla’s mask. I’m not sure if that’s a good thing or a bad thing.”

    Playing smash mouth against Leftists is always a good thing. Even better if elected politicians of president’s party participate (which “they” didn’t)

  40. @EpsteinDidNOTKillHimself
    “What if this has nothing to do with the commercial market, but is the Biden admin prepping for direct US troops involvement/escalation in the Ukraine/Russian war?”

    In a non-bizzaro world, we could expect Winchester to receive a contract modification that directed Winchester provide their entire production to USG. The result would be zero “surplus” production. The information we have is that Winchester was denied the sale of “surplus” production, meaning government expected “surplus” ammo to be produced.

    Of course, it is possible the government thinking was that dealing only with “surplus” production, the public would not figure out that such a contract modification was part of planning to introduce US military into direct conflict in Ukraine.

  41. All you folks out there need to research on your own Winchester is not American owned It is owned by FN Herstol Of Belgium Winchester acquired the contract under the Trump administration if you dig into it a little bit you can find the truth Vista Outdoors is another one and they control most of the primer production in the U.S. the people that hold the reins on Vista outdoors is Black Rock research it yourself there is a lot more to this than you can imagine ??????

  42. Desperate and paranoid cowardly tyrants. I hope Winchester gives them the great America middle finger and leaves to go open their own elsewhere.

    • “I hope Winchester gives them the great America middle finger“

      “The great American middle finger”?

      “Winchester is not American owned It is owned by FN Herstol Of Belgium”

      “Winchester acquired the contract under the Trump administration”

      And the people of Belgium appreciate Donald Trump giving them control of the Lake City manufacturing facilities.

      • ROFLMAO … Yes indeed. Keeping the funds revolving around and within NATO countries is a brilliant idea. Seems you’re about as gun-ignorant as Trump is. You fail (FAIL … AS ALWAYS) to understand the SS109 round was invented by Fabrique Nationale in Herstal, Belgium for ALL the NATO countries so it’s quite natural to award Belgians with the ammo contract for the SS109 / M855 NATO round. When FN won the last contract for the M4 they were cooperative enough to open another FN factory and build them over here in the USA for US forces so I fail to see your point and complaint. And yes, Donald Trump has enough taste for business he would have both blessed and seen to it that this grand plan worked just about like everything else he’s done in business.

        Nice try here Sport but you failed again by running your big mouth, and MISERABLY … ROFLMAO

      • anyone can give the ‘great American middle finger’ (which really isn’t just American, rather its just really popular here in America)

        “Winchester is not American owned It is owned by FN Herstol Of Belgium”

        That’s not true.

        The firm was established in 1866 by Oliver Winchester and was located in New Haven, Connecticut. The firm went into receivership in 1931 and was bought by the Western Cartridge Company which later became the Olin Corporation.

        The Winchester brand name is still owned by the Olin Corporation today, which makes ammunition under that brand name. (Olin Winchester LLC, AKA Winchester)

        The Winchester name is also used under license from Olin Corporation for firearms produced by two subsidiaries of the Herstal Group – FN Herstal of Belgium and the Browning Arms Company of Ogden, Utah.

        Winchester is not owned by FN Herstol Of Belgium. It today is only a brand name, and that brand name is owned by Olin Corporation which is an American company.

        In October 2020 Winchester assumed operational control of the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant in Independence, Missouri, under contract. Its not the only Winchester plant …. Winchester plants > https://winchestermilitary.com/Facilities

        “And the people of Belgium appreciate Donald Trump giving them control of the Lake City manufacturing facilities.”

        That’s not true either… the people of Belgium have never had control of the Lake City manufacturing facilities.

        • Correction:

          “Winchester is not owned by FN Herstol Of Belgium. It today is only a brand name, and that brand name is owned by Olin Corporation which is an American company. ”

          that should have been…

          “Winchester is not owned by FN Herstol Of Belgium. It today is a brand name, and that brand name is owned by Olin Corporation, and a company entity of Olin Corporation which is an American company.”

  43. We will have to buy our ammo from Vlad then. I hear he is ramping up production. At least the Russian people will have jobs.

  44. This is utter bull. The REASON is not what this article states. Lake City IS the primary US Defense company that makes our militaries ammo. It is even covered under the national defense act as one of the companies that cannot be lost.

    THE REASON the decision to stop selling TEMPORARILY, is for TWO reasons. First, they have to refill OUR military stockpiles that were all shipped to Ukraine. And second, they also want to continue to send rounds to Ukraine while still getting our stock levels for the US Military back up again.

    While I can’t stand biden and the leftists out there, I also can’t stand liars and those that make bull up to incite others for no reason. AND THAT is exactly what this is. Lake City has PRIORITY first and foremost to keep the USA Armed Forces stockpiles up. And right now, they are very low because of the help sent to Ukraine.

    So stop with the BULL.

    • “First, they have to refill OUR military stockpiles that were all shipped to Ukraine. And second, they also want to continue to send rounds to Ukraine while still getting our stock levels for the US Military back up again.”

      This is where semantics, and actual source of information make for mischief.

      The article in question claims that “surplus to government need” ammunition is now prohibited from being sold into the commercial market. Without the actual notice to Winchester, we cannot seriously sort out what is going on.

      If government wants to restrict Lake City to military sales only, ending sales of ammo to the commercial market would be a natural result.

      If government wants to slyly dry up the ammunition sale to the public, that is quite another matter.

      Under no circumstance is government obligated to provide a source for future demand for ammo in the consumer market.

      Claiming a natural outcome is motivated by nefarious motives is poor journalism, at best. In the end, it is true that the military moving to a different calibre of ammunition may pose a future where some ammo commonly in the consumer market will become scarce. However, “scarce” may only mean “not cheap”. Look at all the ammunition calibres available for sale in the commercial market that do not have a large user base (“available” meaning “expensive”).

  45. To my understanding, US mil replace M855 with A1 in 2010. Has Lake City sold any M855A1 to civilian market? Supposedly mil has not purchased andy any M855 in the last 12yr? If so then 100% of M855 sold is from (intentional) surplus production.

    • Yea it’s all conspiracy bunk and my bet, all about hoarders now trying to use the latest anti gun sentiment to get people to panic buy again so hoarders can over price and sell to unsuspecting panic buyers.

  46. It was one of the defense contractors that had the contract at Lake City before Winchester acquired it .Right before it changed hands the fellow who was in charge retired and was replaced by a person that had close ties to theClintons it was right after that took place is when the contract was acquired by Winchester You know you have to ask the question why does a Government contractor who has had the contract for 10 years then suddenly you have a top level Management change and then the contract goes to Winchester who is owned by the Belgians just like the breakup and sale of Remington Vista Outdoors bought just the primer manufacturing and accessories division nothing else and the already owned CCI and Federal after acquiring The primer division of Remington it gave them the lions share of primer production in the U.S. could that be why there very are few primers out there for the shooting public being that Black Rock is the major share holder of Vista outdoors ???

  47. This is not a surprise since the Biden Administration has repeatedly shown their lack of understanding of even the most basic concepts of economics. Various companies around the world have stepped up to supply ammunition to folks in the U.S. so I am certain this will just provide more incentive to do so.

    As a matter of fact, if memory serves, Seller & Belliot (a Czech ammunition company in business since 1825) is supposed to be building or acquiring a production facility in the U.S. I have used their ammunition for some time now and I have no complaints.

    However, here is the new question this raises: What about ammunition sales through the CMP? And, more importantly, what about sales of surplus firearms through CMP or even the future of the CMP?

    I think the questions about the CMP need to be addressed to our folks in Congress with emphasis on continuing the program. I am concerned that the move on ammunition with regard to Lakeland is just the first shot in getting the U.S. out of supporting firearms training for our citizens!

  48. There goes the main incentive for bidding on the contract to run this plant. Most of the profit comes from civilian sales.

  49. @Dude
    “My statement about the government’s obligation was a general statement,…”

    Understood it that way. Think about it….are there different, legitimate views about what “benefits” means, which policies benefits individuals, groups, segments, political parties? Government cannot be expected to create policies that benefit all Americans, all the time; no one can.

    As noted, government policy to contract out ammunition production generally benefits the nation as a whole, but may not “benefit” everyone directly, or entirely. If Winchester wasn’t selling “surplus production” into the civilian market, do you imagine there would have been a public clamor to create contracts to do so?

    Where is the moral, or constitutional mandate that every government purchase must provide for some means of selling the production in the commercial market? What are the “common sense” limits? Why only those limits?

    I worked on a creating a government contract for security services at select government data centers. Which parts of a physical and systems security system was supposed to be set aside for civilian benefit? Were the multiple contractors obligated to sell excess materials on the commercial market? Would contractors be permitted to do so? Could the contract be written such that all “surplus” materials would be delivered to the government?

    In addition to the security of the data centers, the only benefit to the public should have been prudent use of materials and labor in arranging security; “best value, lowest price technically acceptable”.

    • “Were the multiple contractors obligated to sell excess materials on the commercial market?”

      I’m not saying they should. I don’t know all the ins and outs of the ammo plant agreement. What I’m concerned about is a history of straight up harmful policies coming from the government. They aren’t just trying to make every policy benefit Americans, they’re actively trying to harm this country and most of the citizens. I don’t think it’s possible to be so incompetent, that we’re just blundering from one crisis to the next.

      I’m not asking for them to attain some mythical, never do any harm, level of governing. I’m asking them to try.

      • “They aren’t just trying to make every policy benefit Americans…”

        Which “Americans”? from the voting numbers over the last two years, it seems that about half of Americans feel they are benefiting from government policies. Maybe that half considers “harming” the other half is good policy for America.

        English, especially American English, language is quite sloppy. It is important to speak precisely. Perhaps what you are trying to convey is the politicians are not creating policies that benefit Americans as you envision what Americans should be about/look like. I wouldn’t want to think that you mean only Americans that you like.

        If you are talking about Americans of the Revolution era, those Americans were not of the same mind, even then, and the nation of America founded in 1791 was in decline by the time Marbury v. Madison was decided. Congress had the authority and constitutional to overturn MvM through legislation removing the SC from a position to be the ultimate arbiter in what is/is not constitutional. Congress was content to kick the matter down the road.

        If I were to re-write your statement (and be more precise), I would write something like:
        “Government policies are not benefiting Americans who believe in the founding principles of small government, State sovereignty over the federal government, lower taxes, balanced budgets, individual liberty, and aversion to foreign entanglements.”

        • Yeah I guess the commie sheep have a different opinion about what’s best for us. They think everything’s going great right now because that’s what they’re told to think.

        • I just completed a vacation trip visiting friends with varying viewpoints, and essentially all had the attitude towards this question of “I don’t want to hear about it, I don’t want to think about it, just let it take care of itself.” Like the 1920s when a few hundred Communists took over Russia, eventually causing the deaths of tens of millions worldwide, over the next 100 years. Just don’t bother me. Surely it couldn’t happen again, right?

    • “If I were to even use my AR-15 against anyone I would use M995 anyway…”

      Why is the .22 AR-15 so popular, vs. the 7.62? Isn’t .30 cal better?

        • “AR-15 .22 is popular because AMMO is Cheap once again and pretty easy to get!”

          Yeah, forgot there is a version of the AR-15 that uses .22LR ammo. Was thinking of .223 vs. 7.62; .22 family bullet vs. .30 calibre bullet.

        • In that case, Sam, there is no “better than”, each is designed for a different purpose.

  50. We are witnessing a complete BREAKDOWN in America!

    The Democrats know they cannot abolish the Second Ammendment without 75 percent of the States Ratifying it! That just will NOT happen and the DEMS know this!
    So, they start by taking away our Weapons and now the Ammo, leaving us helpless to defend ourselves!

  51. There is a simple solution to this, but America needs to GROW A BIGGER PAIR and Vote the Dems out in November! It’s the only way, we will ever regain control of this Country!

    • “…America needs to GROW A BIGGER PAIR and Vote the Dems out in November! It’s the only way, we will ever regain control of this Country!”

      The population has been close to 50-50, left and right for quite awhile. What is the effective solution when left and right have mutually exclusive ideas of what is best for the nation? It isn’t like leftists acquired significant power over the culture just last week. Why did the split develop? What will be the catalyst for one side, or the other to decide that they have been “wrong” for so long? Why is one side, or the other, not a super majority?

      “For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong.”

      ― H. L. Mencken

  52. I haven’t spent more than 20 cents a round for green tip and have what amounts to a lifetime supply – even with a government overthrow or assault by an enemy. I’ve been a buyer for more than 40 years for 7 or 8 different rounds. Bottom line, the lack of sale to individuals won’t hurt me but it could be the basis for insurrrection by others later.

  53. Did I miss something? I thought the Military was transitioning to the M855A1 which has a different core and jacket. The M855 has a mild steel core. I also believe I read that the M193 round does pretty much the exact same thing against non-armored targets, except it fragments better. Did the M855A1 go away?

  54. man am I glad i bought that old Van to store brass in , In my shop I have brand new dies and press,…. and in case anyone should decide to check, the lighter 5.56×45 in 55 grain fmjbt will puncture a vest,…. look it up. I never thought I would see, fire or hold another “m-16” Rifle after the way the government let us down in the Early to mid-seventies,…. then I watched in horror as they did it to our Kids and Private Citizens,…. and the AR Platform, suddenly became Attractive Again, Long Live the Republic.

  55. So many people need reminding! One, understand the constitutions are “directive” instruments, what’s not a delegated privilege to government to exercise, is ABSOLUTELY DENIED… In the federal or state government is not privileged to address a certain subject matter, THE GOVERNMENT CAN NOT ACT UPON THE SAME. Our 2nd amendment is clear. And was made to stand for invasion from tyranny. They are breaking the oath they took!

  56. “Nobama” was behind this last unconstitutional effort to communize our gun rights, and other rights. That sorry BASTARD and Susan Rice both.

  57. @LarryinTX
    “Just don’t bother me. Surely it couldn’t happen again, right?”

    I generally agree with what you write, but not sure of this comment.

    My point was the claim that politicians are supposed to always make laws and policies that always benefit Americans. The statement was vague, so I noted that current policies and laws benefit nearly half the voters, thus “benefiting Americans”.

    Your notation about how communism took over Russia is unquestionably correct, but I am not having success connecting the dots. However…..we are not dealing with a few hundred, from a population of millions. Nearly half our voters are comfortable with the leftward charge of the nation. At this rate, America will find itself firmly communist, without armed revolution. One might conclude that the public does not really fear “it” happening here.

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