By John Stokes
If you want to see first-hand how America could conceivably slip back into the kind of political violence we saw in the 1970’s, then you should take a look at what’s currently unfolding in Virginia. It’s one of the best case studies in recent years of how social-media-fueled rumors, changing demographics, the growing urban/rural divide, and fears of political unrest on both sides can keep spiraling in the wrong direction despite efforts to de-escalate.
To be clear: The odds of the country’s current culture wars going hot are still extremely low. But thanks to a “public safety” move originally intended to tone down a long-simmering standoff between gun rights groups and a newly elected Democratic Virginia legislature, those odds got a solid boost.
On Wednesday, word got out that Virginia Governor Ralph Northam will announce plans to use his emergency powers to ban guns at a gun rights protest next week at the state capitol, in reaction to the increasingly dire rhetoric from pro-gun groups over a slate of new gun control laws proposed by the state’s new Democratic legislature.
EMERGENCY: Virginia Governor Northam to declare temporary emergency, ban all firearms from Capitol Square area ahead of @VCDL_ORG Lobby Day on Monday, 1/20.#Virgina #guncontrol #gunsense #politics #Northamhttps://t.co/r70lH6q1h7
— The Truth About Guns (@guntruth) January 15, 2020
Northam is expected to announce a temporary ban on all guns in the Capitol Square, where the Lobby Day protests will take place, citing the violence in Charlottesville as a rationale for the measure. But I’ve been following the protests closely on gun blogs and gun forums (I’ve covered the gun industry for years for both gun industry press and mainstream media), and I’m deeply concerned that Northam’s move will have the exact opposite effect. I think the odds of violence on Monday, or soon thereafter, just went way up.
If you’re not familiar with what’s happening in Virginia right now, here are two good backgrounders on the planned protests, and all the “civil war” rhetoric that has surrounded them:
- Virginia Democrats won an election. Gun owners are talking civil war
- Prospect of gun control in Virginia draws threats, promise of armed protest
Carrying long guns openly at the protest was already illegal, so many of those planning to attend (estimates range from tens of thousands to over one hundred thousand) have been planning to concealed carry, judging by the talk on the gun-related Facebook pages, reddits, and forums I follow.
But there are also many others (it’s difficult to know how many) who have announced plans to open carry in defiance of the law. Some of these are from militia groups, and a few are even from out-of-state. They’re planning to show up in full “battle rattle,” in some instances with their faces covered (a felony in Virginia), as an act of civil disobedience to the existing gun laws.
I’ve seen this set of images circulating in multiple venues, for instance:
These more hardcore activists that Northam is worried about will likely have two reactions to Northam’s latest move:
- Show up armed anyway and risk (or even provoke) a violent confrontation with the police
- Decide there’s no point in non-violent resistance, now, and begin preparing in earnest for imminent violent resistance
Some number of the activists who were planning to show up carrying concealed may also end up having one or both of the above reactions and join the ranks of the further radicalized.
The governor’s use of his emergency powers against the pro-gun protestors also powerfully reinforces a very dangerous strand of disinformation that has been circulating in the run-up to this event, and has been inflaming some activists even as prominent pro-gun personalities have worked to debunk these rumors and defuse the conflict.
The rumors that Northam will send in the National Guard to confiscate Virginians’ guns, or cut the power and network connectivity to Richmond so that he can take guns under cover of darkness and a communications blackout.
These dark fantasies around Northam’s alleged plans for draconian emergency measures — fantasies that have also surfaced in non-meme form as “news” reports on various websites — just got a massive boost from the Governor himself. Not great.
The Prepared will be a the gun industry’s main trade event next week — the 2020 SHOT Show in Las Vegas — so in addition to looking for the next batch of products to put through our review wringer, we’ll also be following the gun scene’s reaction whatever happens next week in Virginia. So watch this space for more.
Jon Stokes is an editor at The Prepared, contributing editor at TFB, and currently with Open Source Defense.
This post was originally published at theprepared.com and is reprinted here with permission.
Carry signs that say, ” WE KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE “. Shouldn’t there be time to get an injunction on coonmans’ edict.
It’s official. The online “boogaloo” talk has given Virginia’s government the power to suspend rights for days.
They have been monitoring the internet and have prepared for armed conflict. They have special strike teams setup to engage any armed person coming to Virginia with violence on their mind. The feds are likely to be helping them on behalf of the president.
VCDL and militias should STAND DOWN. You are walking into a trap with no way to win. Make them come to us, on our FRIENDLY GROUND, not theirs.
VCDL has told “patriots” not to bring their long guns and leave their combat gear at home because this isn’t the first day of a war. They have made it clear from day one this is a day for Virginians to lobby their representatives. It’s not for outsiders, white nationalists and prophecy seekers to start a boogaloo against the citizenry.
Even though VCDL tried to stop the militants from causing this situation in particular, so people could come without restriction, the “patriots” said very bad things about VCDL and are angry that the VCDL would give them intelligent advice to prevent this situation.
Now the whole area is on lock down and checkpoints are being setup. There will be screenings and strike squads waiting. You will be asked to leave if you attempt to bring a weapon into the area. If you refuse, necessary force will be used on you. Comply or die.
It’s going to be hard to assemble in mass when everything is locked down and you have to go through the law enforcement checkpoints. Keep in mind you can’t even bring defensive equipment into the area. It’s possible you will be ejected from the area if you wear any military gear.
No fangs, no claws. Make sure to cut off your balls. America, fuck yeah!
Not sure what you meant by the last line. Up until that point it sounded like we were in agreement.
The last line is simply a joke to show how toothless Americans have become. That’s not to say to go over to Virginia and commit terrorist attacks.
These modern day “patriots” like to pretend to be badass veterans who will defend America from all enemies when the time comes. They are very late to the game. They don’t even know how to play. They just talk. They can’t even show up to a voting booth nor call out their own party.
Thanks for the clarification. It sounded like a joke, but wasn’t sure. Maybe some common sense and true strategic thought will end up reining supreme.
This author is flat out wrong!
“Carrying long guns openly at the protest was already illegal”. Bull. It wasn’t illegal to carry pistols openly or concealed if you had a permit, and open carry of long rifles was perfectly legal until this decree from Blackface, which is being challenged in the courts as he claims the grounds are a “shelter”.
Get your facts right!
To me it seems like Chief and Stephen are both controlled opposition, designed to sow seeds of dissent here. Their goal appears to be to drive away participants from this pro gun rally by fear lingering.
I am not fear mongering. I am informing people what the government of Virginia has said and are doing. I am making sure people know what they are getting into and they make proper decisions. That they don’t make strategic errors.
Fear mongering is the “patriots” saying the U.N. is going to disarm Americans, the governor is going to turn off the power and internet, the National Guard id going door to door, Antifa is going to commit a terrorist attack, etc.
The only way you can show up to exercise your 1st is to leave behind your 2nd. That’s what happens when online “patriots” say they want to murder civilians because they lost an election and are not getting what they want.
Not to necessarily drive away, but to try to get people not to at least show up with their guns, and now handguns (if they are going on the Capitol grounds), and give the LEOs an excuse to start shooting. Protest, yes. Give CNN and the rest salivating on the idea we might start something, no.
Yes that’s correct Mr censor. The people using their 1st amendment speech civil rights have upset the government.
Welp the game of chicken continues.
I can’t blame them for wanting to carry because there’s been no looking into why the police were basically standing down in Charlottesville. I wouldn’t want to be disarmed at the risk of Antifa showing up either honestly.
From reports I’ve seen, Antifa and Black Lives Matter are going to be there. Also rumors that Antifa will be wearing “patriot” dress to disguise the fact that they are Antifa.
I thought antifa was just as PO’d about gov blackface trying to disarm them as well?
Not sure. Just heard they are there and preparing. Preparing for what I’m not sure. Based on their extreme Leftist actions in the past, I would expect the worst. Also, think of this. If they dress like Patriots and start violence, who will be blamed for it. Not Antifa, but the pro @a people there.
No, Black GUNS Matter will be there and have been invited by Gun Owners of America.
Big difference between Black LIVES Matter and Black GUNS matter.
BGM may indeed be there, but so is BLM.
Personally, I would suggest leaving your cell phone behind if you plan to attend the protest. The feds will likely be using Stingray machines to I.D. people. But that’s just me.
Good point. Hence the use of alternative comms such as 2-way radios.
If 100,000 show up with weapons then what?
I think the government blinks.
At some point you need to……..say when.
Too many cowards.
You’d be lucky to get 100.
Don’t even 100 show up. This is a trap. Stay on FRIENDLY GROUND, where we have the advantage.
Oy, burner phone. I leave my Google phone behind all the time when I don’t feel like being followed. Any device keeps a lifetime location history now. More than just Ez-tag booths scan Ez-tag stickers. If you have to drive, I would either get a rental for just added obfuscation or have a M8 drop you off a few blocks away.
Of course, we live in a surveillance state and any car can be tracked from one block to the next, right on back to its origin. Drones will probably be overhead so understand how to enter and exist through blocked line of sight.
RF shielding pouches aren’t that expensive.
Heavy duty aluminium foil works just as well. Only need 1 layer to stop the phones RF signal. Place phone in airplane mode with bluetooth and wifi off. Make a envelope with the foil, leave the top long on one side, place phone inside and fold top down and roll edges together. Cheap, fast and works just as well as store bought ones.
Neither the bags nor the foil attenuate phone signals enough to not be registered. You need a high quality, copper lined bag, placed inside a small, copper lined box that has a good and complete seal all the way around. That will be enough to stop all signals except maybe bluetooth. It will attenuate BT enough that you would need to be within one arms distance to find the network.
Actually all you need to do is make a faraday cage. Just take an ammo can and line it with cardboard and put your phone in it, then close it. I’ve personally done numerous experiments on this.
I guess it depends what you’re doing but for most people I suspect having a phone will be much more important. In any case there are going to be many, many phones there and while someone could probably identify whether someone is in the proximity, that’s about it. So unless you plan to take a shot at a politician I don’t see the probative value in them trying to figure out who each phone belongs to…
Watch this video and read the attached white paper on the various scenarios.
Bottom Line, no good can come of this. STAY AWAY and let this work out in the courts. If you must go, go without arms.
I agree 100%, you couldn’t pay me enough to participate in this circus. This is exactly what the other side wants, don’t allow yourself to become a “useful idiot”!
The other side will make it up anyway, regardless of what we do.
What if the Minutemen in Lexington and Concord were as cowardly?
We would still be subject to Great Britain.
Those who don’t break laws will lose all their rights. That much is obvious.
I was for this as well before I read Will Bracken’s (noted gun right’s activist and former SF) warning. It sounds like 2A rights people are walking into a trap, with no way to get a positive result out of this. I am recommending to read his article and don’t go. He gives several alternatives than setting yourself up and us on the 20th. Bottom line, do stuff on FRIENDLY GROUND, not the state capitol. If it comes to a fight, fight on FRIENDLY GROUND, not in their back yard where they will have hundreds and state troopers and numerous LE snipers on top of the buildings all around you. You are walking into mr. black face’s trap. I would hate to think we aren’t smarter than that sorry baby murdering SOB.
There’s less and less ‘friendly ground’ around, it seems.
There is no friendly ground.
duh, video here
The gist of the video – If you are there protesting, keep a close eye on the skyline. Many of the tall buildings surrounding the capital building are federally-owned. What an ideal location for snipers.
Video, video, video *everything* that happens, from as many angles as possible, and stream it off-site if possible…
So I watched the video and read the article, and it is conspiracy theory, sniffing too much paint, garbage.
Total insanity. Total speculation. The scenario where the leftists Gods send a comet to to strike the pro-2A protesters was left out of the “analysis” – which was a joke.
It’s almost like you don’t want pro-2A to make a showing. I’ll tell you what isn’t a conspiracy: No 2A support = no 2A rights.
Exactly! Everyone yelling “trap” is either a Leftist or a pawn of Leftists!
They simply want no one to show, and then they can say, “see, no one really cares and the gun nuts are a tiny minority. These laws are reasonable, and do not in any way infringe on a law abiding resident’s ability to exercise his 2nd amendment rights.”
Stay away? To what end? That’s what THEY want! I have been to the last 3 Lobby Days, including the emergency special session f-nutter called last year. There was no violence. No yelling. It was peaceful and civil all day. MDA was chanting in the distance, but their group was way too small to cause a confrontation. But even passing them in the halls of the Pocahontas building they were cordial, as were we. Northam and his goons are trying everything to reduce the size of this rally, including sewing discord between fellow 2ndA supporters. Don’t fall for it! Be there. Stand up for what you believe in. Stay safe and keep your head in on a swivel!
Disagree with that. As many as possible should show up.
Pro Tip: If you’re planning on having a gas mask, switch out the filters and just wear it all day. There’s nothing that sucks more than trying to put on a mask in a cloud of CS.
Pro Tip #2: Wear a helmet. It doesn’t matter much if it’s a bump helmet or full blown kevlar, but you bet your ass the commies are going to be looking to kill you and the fastest way to do that is to hit you in the head.
Gas mask equals facial coverage equals felony in Virginia.
Smooth move, bowels.
It would be hilarious if everyone wore black face, and it would cause difficulty for the facial recognition software.
Maybe we should start racking up the felonies en-mass, then stop recognizing the validity of the courts and their opinions, en-mass.
You seem to think I give a shit. What are they going to do about it?
You will give a shit Pwrserge and this will convince you that your ass is grassed
Vlad, while the video is kind of cool, you realize that’s a T 34/85, right?
I think the North Koreans are about the only people fielding that particular iron chariot these days, here in the states it will probably be a mix of Bradley’s and various mraps, Humvees, etc.
miner. Election is just around the corner. The uber rich dems would be well advised not to turn the jack boots loose on Americans.
Course, Trump gets a second term either way.
Yes I am aware of what they are and they are available at discount rates to fellow Socialist States like Virginia. They are excellent for crowd control. I have fond remembrances of the invasion Czechoslovakia in 1968. Comrade Northam will use tax money to purchase a lot of them soon.
Tell your Doc he needs to increase your Meds.
Vlad, the day the US federal government rolls the tanks through suburbia is the day they piss off all the blue-pilled FUDDs and kick a hornets nest.
vlad. You’re showing your inner nazi again.
These assclowns have no idea what infantry can do to tanks. Tanks are just an uglier steel trap in which to die. Also, you cant drive them into these parts. Shove your mistaken ideas right up the rear. Then walk on up here. Haha! You better eat your wheaties.
AD, that’s why you pack infantry behind tanks and advance with them. Just don’t stand anywhere near the main gun when its fired, the blast pressures are fatal.
So antifa won’t be able to legally wear their SS death’s head mask? Good. Expose the fascists to the camera.
I will not be holding my breath to see if the DEMOCRAT CONTROLLED POLICE FORCES in Virginia will start mass arrests of Masked Antifa thugs.
Since the police are controlled in those Democrat controlled western states. None of those thugs were arrested when they attack trump supporters. The anti-mask (anti-KKK) wearing laws are in most states. And have been on the books for a very long time now.
But the rural gun owners of Virginia are a very different matter. You Left wing atheists had better go to the secret closet you have and pray to that christian cross you have hidden away.
Miner49er you must be from the city. I don’t believe the gun owners of West Virginia will just turn in their guns because a Democrat told them to.
What do you think???
I already know the Libertarians, Liberals, and the Left, are on record saying you have no moral authority to use force to protect your private property. They say just let criminals take it.
Chris T wrote: “Libertarians, Liberals, and the Left, are on record saying you have no moral authority to use force to protect your private property.”
What Libertarians are you talking about? In my experience, most are not pacifist and do not oppose DEFENSIVE force to protect liberty and property. They generally oppose the initiation of force (aggression) against against persons or their property.
From the official Libertarian Party Statement of Principles:
The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights — life, liberty, and justly acquired property — against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by any other individual or group. We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense. Private property owners should be free to establish their own conditions regarding the presence of personal defense weapons on their own property. We oppose all laws at any level of government restricting, registering, or monitoring the ownership, manufacture, or transfer of firearms or ammunition. ”
to Fun Gunner
Show me the links where the Libertarians support shooting people who are Looting? Or illegal aliens who crossover on to your private property. The Libertarians did not support Joe Horn when he shot and killed two illegal alien criminals who broke into his neighbor’s home in texas. And then came after him.
Show me the Links where Libertarians support the VA sheriffs who say they will refuse to follow the law when told to confiscate the guns of law abiding citizens.
In the past Libertarians have publicly supported law enforcement when they supported pot reform laws.
Lord have mercy, a few thousand guys in blackface would be so excellent, the entire WORLD would be waiting to see what Coonman Northam would say about it, especially if a few hundred were black men! How did this turd get elected?
Bloomberg’s money. And idiots like minor69er, and my dumbass kid.
wearing blackface?…like that…maybe now you’re starting to learn how to play the game…
Half the time I think this guy is kidding, the other half the time I think he’s certifiable.
Oh, and I’m sure that would present an excellent PR move. Along with the lardasses in tanktops carrying rifles into chipotle (or whatever that was a few years ago) we’ll get rednecks wearing gas masks all day (with very poor pissing accuracy when they have to use the bathroom, I bet). Brilliant.
did the gov actually say he would have you killed for not giving up your gun?
Extremely irresponsible. Hell, Even Obama wasn’t stupid enough to say he was going kill people even though he did say he was getting pretty good about killing people via drone strikes, and neither were the Clintons.
I consider it apocryphal. Even the mainstream media couldn’t ignore a statement like that. I do think it captures Northam’s sentiment, though.
I disagree with you there. “The Mainstream Media” just describes four corporations which own every major news outlet, two pairs of which own large parts of each other jointly. It would come as absolutely no surprise to me if he said “I’m already assassinating gun owners one by one” and no TV news station was allowed to publish it. Why? All the money that backs the civilian disarmament lobby comes from or comes from the individual owners of those four (2.66) corps. It’s not just spin anymore, it’s full-on 1984 lies and suppression.
Fair point about the mainstream media.
Isn’t it 3 now that fox got bought out by Disney (Fox news is totally still independent and any subtle changes are pure coincidence)
No, he didn’t.
He also said at the state of the commonwealth that no national guard units would be deployed, and no internet or electricity would be cut off.
The image above is fake news that’s going to rile up people and make them do something stupid.
Would you please just hush up about all your pesky facts already!
You are spoiling the narrative, that’s going on your permanent record you know.
The Rothchilds are watching…
Another concern is possible false flag activity so the antis can say, “see, I told you so. We need more gun control!”
Did he utter those exact words (in public), no. But what do you think is going to happen when your door is kicked in at 3 o’clock in the morning and you refuse to quietly turn in your firearms?
That quote is in no way attributable to the Governor. It was pulled from a blog post by Hal Turner, a white supremacist with a history of spreading conspiracy theories who was sentenced to 33 months in prison in 2010.
I’m all for calling out Democrat’s when they say bullshit, but for TTAG to repost this is irresponsible and certainly not “the truth” in any sense of the words. As second amendment supporters we have the moral high ground which gets eroded when we start putting false words in our opponents mouths.
Dave, you are forgetting Swallowswell and his statements from freaking CONGRESS that those who resist gun confiscation would be subjected to nuclear weapons! Not just killed, NUKED!!
People would be crazy not to show up in full kit.
It’s the state’s move. Let’s see how it plays out.
no matter how they show up I like the idea of marching round and round that fenced enclosure….
If I didnt know better, I’d say the anti American left wants Virginia to be the birthplace of the second civil war. Why not? When you remember the people instigating this will never be in harm’s way. You all know who I’m referring to!
So the Gov says comply or he’ll have you killed,,,
I think it should be the other way around,
I am not in favor of bozos acting like bozos. But a little civil disobedience is a powerful tactic used by the other side. The XR crowd (Extinction Rebellion) is employing a tactic of “they can’t arrest us all”, under the guise that the more that get arrested, the closer it comes to breaking the system. There comes a point where there are too many cases to try, too many bodies for the jail cells, so the XR leader is encouraging folks to get arrested to break the system.
In Portland, Antifa has BECOME the system (well, by default, since the police let Antifa do whatever they want, including taking over streets and directing traffic).
Race activists frequently take to the streets to shut down freeways.
Every time they do these things, they’re given wall to wall news coverage. So maybe it’s time for a little (sane, intelligent) civil disobedience on the part of 2A supporters…
Yes, it does look like there are armed groups in Portland, Oregon, advocating violence against our fellow citizens:
“PORTLAND, OREGON IS bracing for a storm of far-right violence. In July, Joe Biggs, a former staffer at the far-right conspiracist site Infowars announced an “End Domestic Terrorism” rally in Portland this Saturday. Its aim: the local antifa movement.
Biggs, who’s encouraged date rape and punching transgender people, told followers on Twitter to bring guns, declared “DEATH TO ANTIFA!!!!!!”, displayed a spiked weapon saying that it “will be put to good use,” and posted memes about death squads murdering leftists before his account was suspended.
The “End Antifa” rally organizers include Enrique Tarrio, chair of the violence-prone Proud Boys, which is designated as a general hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center, and “Rufio Panman,” the alias of Ethan Nordean, a brawny street fighter whose knockout punch of an antifascist in Portland in June 2018 was used as a recruiting tool for the Proud Boys.
This week’s rally was called after right-wing media personality and provocateur Andy Ngo was attacked in Portland on June 29 while filming a Patriot Prayer rally heavily outnumbered by antifa. A video shows him being punched, kicked, and hit with coconut milkshakes and silly string by masked individuals.”
Yeah… I fail to see the problem. Every single member of ANTIFA needs to be rounded up and charged with treason.
Victory Komarade Northam
If the SPLC declared the proud boys a hate group, they must be doing something right.
I fear that any violence on the part of the pro 2A protesters will be fuel for the anti-gun people.
They will use non-violent protests against pro 2A… once they twist the facts and edit the films.
Everything that anyone pro-liberty does is fuel for leftists. They just twist it to the negative.
For example: If Trump cured cancer, the immediate headline would read “Trump puts thousands out of work”. It doesn’t matter anymore whether or not we do what they like. They’re not going to stop until there are no more RIGHTS.
Violence from anti-2A protesters doesn’t seem to ever gain 2A any ground, why do you assume the opposite will be different?
Great now the sane people will stay away and then we get tagged as nutjob gun lovers who show up
So, exactly what they want, then.
Good job, everyone.
I was under the impression that next week was a lobby day, not a protest, so long guns would have been allowed. The Anti-fa concern is a little over blown. Anti-fa is against the governor because of the blackface/kkk kostume pic, not to mention that they have the same notion most of us have that unarmed minorities are oppressed minorities. That’s probably all we have in common with Anti-fa. Given that, if cooler heads prevail (fingers crossed), maybe pro-2A groups and Anti-fa can lobby against these bills, together. Imagine the news coverage of that.
Yes, the great secret is that pro2A and Antifa share a distrust of government.
POTG should be willing to work with them by using the energy of the shared values. By finding common ground, we can begin the steps towards reunifying the people.
No human being has shared values with ANTIFA vermin. They need to be strung up in the public square. The enemy of my enemy is my enemy’s enemy, nothing more. At best, they just move down the target list a step or two.
HAIL VICTORY OVER THE REPUBLICAN REICHSTAG
My grandfather was there. Quit appropriating shit that doesn’t belong to you commie vermin.
Commies got their asses kicked in the Cold War, we’ll do it again.
That Stalin beat the Germans is laughable fiction. Without US (and UK) Lendlease everything West of the Volga would be speaking German today.
You never cease to shout your back woods ignorance to the world. The real facts are although lend lease helped Russia it was a drop in the bucket to what they produced themselves. Russia produced roughly 55,000 tanks and air planes and we sent them obsolete worthless p39 airplanes and old out dated tanks which amounted roughly to 5,000 units. The planes and tanks had few spare parts which meant often they sat useless for nickle and dime parts. The rolling stock we sent them did o not even fit their rails system.
In conclusion the Russians are correct when they say we are the ones who beat Hitler not the Americans and British. As a matter of fact the U.S. air war was a colossal failure against Germany as well as they were producing more weapons in 1945 than they did during the previous war years.
The Russian take over of the Caucus oil fields and Romanian oil fields was what really put the nail in the coffin of the Nazi war machine. U.S. air raids on Romania proved a failure.
I might add U.S. and British troops faced shell shocked and worn out troops in Europe while the Russians fought the cream of the Nazi Storm Troopers and beat them.
The Steel City John Brown Gun Club will be in attendance, hopefully bringing a few other groups.
An interview with one of their members on a lefty community defense podcast below, at 14:00
time to fight boys!!!
stay strong, keep your heads down and do not stop fighting until we have complete control..
I don’t see Virginia government doing anything to de-escalate. In fact quite the opposite: Virginia government is escalating at lightning pace.
And I see people who are legitimately and extremely concerned based on FACTS, not social-media fueled rumors, not some rural/urban divide, nor demographics (race).
Those FACTS are PUBLIC STATEMENTS of Virginia government democrats, bills that Virginia Democrats are proposing, the budget that Virginia Governor Blackface has requested, Virginia Democrats declaring that the Capitol building is now a “gun-free” zone, and the latest being that the Capitol grounds are now a “gun-free” zone.
No wonder we are in a tight spot: even people who might appear to be firearm ownership advocates cannot get simple facts straight.
KOMARADE NORTHAM HAS CRUSHED THE REPUBLICAN REICHSTAG
Komarades Hail Victory
I think the most effective way we could lobby would be for tens of thousands of clean cut nicely dressed people show up next Monday. People looking like ordinary neighbors, co-workers and everyday folks would mess up the media and the Northam forces. We need to look and act like the rational normal people that we are.
The model is persuasion, not belligerent bullying.
One should mirror the physical appearance, gestures, language and behaviors of the target they wish to persuade. Dressing well, and giving the appearance of a reasonable person of substance is the best tactic.
Unfortunately, much of today’s protest is driven by folks just seeking to outrage the regular folks, all to satisfies their ego and give their lives meeting.
Modest persuasion doesn’t work with commie vermin. The far more effective method would be for those Demokkkommie vermin to all develop terminal lead poisoning within 24 hours of each other. Leaving the GOP in control of the government.
We Socialists won against Hitlers Nazi’s and we have won against the Republican Nazi’s in Virginia. Hail Victory———–да здравствует победа
No, persuasion is exactly the model to use. Perhaps someday in the future there will be a need for stronger forms of protest but Monday is not that day. It is the first big attempt to speak to legislators. Many democrats ran on slim majorities or did not even run hard on gun control. You owe it to yourself to at least try to sit down face to face and talk with them before you escalate to civil disobedience and other types of protest. This is the the first card we have to play in what will be a long slog. Don’t be a fool and limit your options by jumping ahead further down the line in options. In my experience from previous lobby days the vast majority of legislators have no idea what the bills even say or do. They just get the blurb from the patron and say, “Oh that sounds nice” and have zero idea what the real world ramifications will be. In general they’re not monsters, just busy-bodies who feel like they have to do something. (Actually, thinking on it they’re not that different from people wanting to show up in plate carriers and other silly things to lobby day.)
Because that’s worked so well for us before right? Nope. There are very few true fence sitters left (those who remain are so goddamn stupid they can be convinced of anything and the left is a lot better at propaganda than we are) which means there’s very little to be gained by trying to play the hearts and minds game. I suppose you also think kids should just hand over their lunch money (metaphorically speaking) to the school bullies? Because that’s where we’re at. Being nice to people literally threatening to murder us just encourages them. Force, or the credible threat of force, is the only thing these vermin understand
God Bless the people of Virginia and I hope everyone in this country supports them. The one thing that has absolutely got to happen, is this SON OF A BITCH NORTHAM has got to go . There is no alternative but to remove him from office and any other Virginia Democrat that supports him. Start the ball rolling. He has to go. And when the people of Virginia remove him from office make him leave the state. He can go to New York or California. He will fit right in there. California will probably elect him Governor
“…this SON OF A BITCH NORTHAM has got to go .”
My short list:
Northam does not have the legal authority …
Not that this has ever topped a leftist.
Trump didn’t have legal authority to drop bombs but he did it multiple times. He even got a country to attack back, resulting in over a hundred innocent people dying in the process.
President Trump acted on the same legal authority that Obozo did when he dropped more than 2200 bombs in Iraq and Syria… Just sayin
Piss on bombs, Joemama directed American troops to *invade* a sovereign nation (Pakistan) in order to murder a foreign national (Osamabamamama) from yet another sovereign nation (Saudi Arabia), without any hint of a trial or even a request for clearance from Congress. Never the slightest murmur that I ever heard. But long declared terrorist prohibited by UN from leaving Iran casually jets to Iraq and gets dispatched by a wee bitty rocket, no larger than the thousands he has arranged to be fired at Americans, and the left loses its shit. You cannot make this crap up.
Bush, Obama and Trump are criminals.
I read Trump is dropping more bombs than Obama did. Obama dropped more bombs than Bush. That’s a lot of bombs.
I was referring to the acts of war on sovereign nations without congressional authorization and no credible imminent threat to America by those nations. He refused in those 4 different attacks to show evidence he says gave him the legal authority to commit acts of war. Because of his behavior a bunch of troops died in retaliation and over 170 civilians.
In the end, Trump didn’t keep his promise to defend Americans when Iran retaliates. Now Iran says they will seek to acquire a nuke because of Trump.
The killing of Osama bin Laden was as simple as a military raid targeting a military officer combatant.
This issue has been discussed at length and the legal consensus is the action was perfectly justifiable under the rules of war.
“To justify the use of force, the Obama administration relied on the Authorization to Use Military Force Act of Sept. 18, 2001, which allows the president to use “all necessary and appropriate force” against persons who authorized, planned or committed the 9/11 attacks, as well as international law derived from treaties and customary laws of war.”
On the other hand, President Trump’s assassination was without authorization and contrary to the international rules of war. Yes, the target was a bad guy, and the world is better off without him. But things go better when we follow the rules of war and diplomacy.
“worng” – as usual.
Remember all those little brown kids obama killed at that wedding
I was thinking about driving down from New York to spend the day as part of the protest, but this is getting insane! I understand civil disobedience and the rich history it has in American culture, although usually used by the Left. BUT!!!! Bringing guns to a protest where they’ve been prohibited, knowing that the extremes of the pro-gun movement will be in body armor itching for a fight is NOT the way to win this war!!
In fact, I can see just the opposite: If ONE SHOT IS FIRED, it’ll create the chaos that the anti-gun folks have been dreaming for. It will convince them (and much of the public) that the right to keep and bear arms is too dangerous, and efforts to repeal the 2A will ramp up. And if anyone is killed, particularly someone in law enforcement, that will be a PR nightmare! And don’t be surprised if SCOTUS isn’t paying attention as they are preparing a decision in the NY City case that, if favorable, could go far in advancing pro-gun rights.
Try as I will, I’m not seeing anything positive that’s going to come out of this and a whole lot of negatives. So I guess I’ll stay home rather than be a part of what could be one of the final nails in the coffin of 2A Rights!
posts like this is what convince me the second amendment is dead and the left knows it. here “gun rights supporters” are, admitting they are unwilling to fight for the right that is being actively taken away from them. We should be supporting those in VA, not telling them to “keep quiet, don’t make waves and we will beat this in court” completely ignoring that the courts have failed to uphold the second amendment in the last 150 years. No, I don’t count Heller as a win because the SCOTUS has failed to uphold their own ruling on it since they made it. Gun owners who plan on remaining so need to wake up, the left is no longer whispering about their plans they are openly discussing it. They are wolves and we are sheep and they are sitting there discussing what to have for dinner right in front of us as we do NOTHING. If we continue to do nothing and rely on our courts for protection you may as well turn in your guns now because you sure as hell wont resist the call to turn them in later. We are in this mess because for 70 years we have been claiming “from my cold dead hands” and the left has decided to call our bluff. So, what is it going to be? Walk away and show them we were only bluffing or push back no matter how far they take it and show them we really meant it, like it or not the ball is in our court and they are all waiting and watching to decide on their next move.
And so, what are YOU going to do, Long?
im 1,400 miles away, if things kick off there I’ll be making the drive to make my stand. I took an oath long ago that never expired.
What he is going to do, or not do, hasn’t a thing to do with the fact that he is exactly correct.
Thought so…just enough keyboard warrior.
You mean, you? Or do you intend to start shooting early Monday?
Yes the Far Right Jack Booted Storm Troopers always turn out to be their own worst enemy. This could not please the Stalinst’s more as its a dream come true and the News Media will have a field day comparing the Far Right with jack booted Nazi’s that are the hard core of the paramilitary lunatic fringe.
If the media wants to keep breathing, they will keep their propaganda to themselves. If one shot is fired, they all become legitimate military targets.
The Media is not worried guys like you are on the governments surveillance list. You will be the first to have a visit in the middle of the fog and night,
Sneaking up on a combat engineer’s house in the middle of the night is a horrible idea. There are much less painful ways to commit suicide.
You listen to some freaky-assed shit, strych…
Kinda makes me want to look into his basement. Or not, maybe not.
I am apparently not alone. Novocaine for the Soul charted at #1 on the Billboard Modern Rock Chart and at #39 for Billboard’s overall US Airplay chart in 1997.
The previous song you commented on, Two Hits and the Joint Turn Brown by Yonder Mountain String Band is actually a cover of a song that was originally released, and fairly popular, back in in 1977.
It occurred to me to pull the original so you can see what I’m talking about: Old school blueGRASS music.
Dillard-Hartford-Dillian, “Two Hits and the Joint Turn Brown” from the 1977 bluegrass album entitled Glitter Grass From the Nashwood Hollyville Strings
John Hartford was the man!
A nice guy, a bit acerbic but his heart was in the right place.
And a rational atheist as well.
It was never illegal to carry a long gun at Lobby Day. I have been to the last 3 Lobby Days and long guns were carried at all 3 in the capitol square! The only caveat being that state law (§18.2-287.4) prohibits the carry by a ***non-CHP holder of a loaded: semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that is equipped with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of centerfire ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or a shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds, in certain localities, Richmond included.
This entire 2A issue is far more complex than “shall not be infringed” so let’s take a look at what this really means:
The Founders were genuinely afraid of having a standing army; fearing it would be a threat to the stability of the new republic. So this is (sort of) where the idea of militias came into being. Their idea was that the militia would consist of every able bodied man between certain ages who would be called into action to resist a common threat. Thus, “the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed” because these common citizens would bring their own weapons to a battle, and since they feared a powerful govt, they wanted to make sure a tyrannical govt wouldn’t have the ability to take away those weapons. Importantly, the reality at that time was that all sides would have the same level of weaponry.
Now fast-forward to today where we have a massively funded military with almost unlimited technology and power, and how does that play out? The concept of the militia is still valid and Constitutional, but the idea that “We, the People” could defeat our military (or even our militarized police) is nothing more than a pipe dream.
SCOTUS has recognized this as they’ve transitioned the 2nd Amendment to apply to self defense in the home (and hopefully in the near future, to include self defense OUTSIDE the home unless we screw it up).
This is why permissible weapons, per Justice Kennedy, are limited to those in “common use.” And yeah, AR-15s ARE in common use so it would be unconstitutional for the govt to prohibit them. (Unless the Dems come into power and pack the court as they’ve threatened – then all bets are off!!)
The bottom line is that I don’t think any of us want our neighbors to be armed with Stinger Missles or weapons that could take down a commercial aircraft! All this talk of armed resistance against the military is bravado and pure nonsense.
I hope that makes sense (even if it doesn’t fit our pre-conceived notions).
Regular, everyday Americans are the largest armed force on the planet. Nothing else even comes close.
I need to object to the regular use of the term “standing army”, as though we were in some danger of such a thing. Folks, a standing army is one which is housed in the homes of the citizens where they are posted. Brits regularly ejected people from their homes in order to have comfortable headquarters, and used staff and supplies without compensation, and when they left often carried off the silver to boot. That is a standing army, and has no equivalent in the past 100+ years.
In Federalist #46 James Madison confirmed the fear that the federal government would become too powerful as this was their experience with Great Britain. He therefore recommended limiting the “Standing Military” to no more than 25,000 to 30,000 troops; suggesting that the “militia” at the state level would provide the necessary protections against foreign invaders as well as a tyrannical government.
He even used a formula to come to that 30,000: Either 1/100 of the total population or 1/25th of the number of men able to bear arms.
In other words there was, indeed, a “Standing Army” in addition to the Militias that were located in each state.
“…militia would consist of every able bodied man between certain ages…”
You’ll note that those are the people who could be required to show up. People outside the specified group could volunteer and join.
“…the idea that “We, the People” could defeat our military is nothing more than a pipe dream…
The idea that a bunch of rag-tag mujaheddin and Tali fighters with rusty old Soviet equipment could defeat our military is nothing more than a pipedream. Home by Christmas ’02, right? Summer ’03 at the absolute latest.
“All this talk of armed resistance against the military is bravado and pure nonsense.”
I’m no fan of the CW2/boogaloo/Revolution 2.0 talk and I’ve said that here many, many times but the idea that it’s “pure nonsense” is objectively incorrect. The simple fact of the matter is that most of the people who run their mouths/wag their fingers on this topic are idiot LARPfags. However, there are a good number of people in this country who don’t blather on and do have the capacity to cause real problems if shit goes “hot”.
19 years in and we can’t actually win in Afghanistan. The whack-a-mole continues. You really think that the same military is going to have an “easy go” of it when it’s torn apart by internal conflict, it’s bases are within easy reach of people who know it’s SOPs, has mass defections/AWOL issues and a ton of their hardware goes missing? I mean the Taliban and Haqqani network guys didn’t have NODs, many Americans do. More will have them if shit goes sideways because they’ll have it given to them by other folks or they’ll steal it. There goes one major advantage we’ve played on heavily in the GWOT, which hasn’t exactly been a cakewalk.
https://virginia113.com/ and https://facebook.com/virginia113
Floyd County is mustering: https://wset.com/news/local/floyd-county-organizes-militia-muster-call-over-potential-new-state-gun-laws
1) Yes, the standing military has weapons that are superior to civilians, but would they be used? They aren’t going to nuke, carpet bomb, send an artillery barrage against a city. There’s too many of their supporters and neutrals that might get hurt, and bad PR might flip other to the our side. Maybe they would use precision guided weapons against an isolated, rural building, but that’s a lot of expense for a handful of people that aren’t leaders of a revolt.
2) The military is made of “We the People.” I posit that they are more likely to be on our side than the general population. They will be reluctant to attack if their homes and families, and many would support a revolution. They might even bring some of the fancy weapons with them.
3) In colonial times, private parties owned cannons and armed sailing ships, which were the most powerful weapons of the time. We don’t have records of them murdering people, bombarding towns for fun, etc. There isn’t case law, but I would contend that any weapon that can be used against a discrete enemy is valid for private ownership. You can’t limit a nuke, bio, or chemical weapon only to a threat without hurting innocents, so I’m ok with banning them from private ownership. If you have 10s of billions to burn, dump it on a battleship and crew if you feel the desire. Musk, Bezos, and others have arsenals for ICBMs, but they haven’t used them offensively. Musk hasn’t dropped Falcon rockets on the HQs of Ford, GM, Fiat, Honda, Toyota, etc. People can own anti-aircraft missiles as NFA destructive devices, and some do own anti-aircraft guns. I’ve never heard of a civilian using one to take down an airliner. Drivetanks.con has tanks, artillery, antitank guns, machine guns, etc. They could take over many of the surrounding towns, but they don’t. If you have a few thousand dollars that you would like to convert to noise and smoke, they will let you drive and fire them.
May I suggest – wear EAR PROTECTION.
Northam is acting unconstitutionally,
so he can be amended per Section 2, as can the state police.
Section 2. People the source of power
That all power is vested in, and consequently derived from, the people, that magistrates are their trustees and servants, and at all times amenable to them.
This doesn’t even take into account Title 18, Sec 241 of Federal Code. Something that could be filed with a sheriff.
He can do what he is doing via the laws of Virginia. It’s because of the “boogaloo” talk.
Constitution is Supreme
We shall see. VCDL has filed for an injunction. Others may also being doing that, too.
Antifa storm troopers is the governor Klamsman’s police force. If bullying works this time, he’ll be using them in the future.
You can be sure that:
Anti-fa will be there
Agent provocateurs, anti-fa dressed like Patriots.
Undercover, civilian clothed police, FBI, atf agents.
Govt snipers. (Possibly)
Trigger happy, jackass redneck operators in full kit, muddying the message.
Sorry, but you couldn’t pay me to show up at that clown show.
….like standing in a gas filled room and everyone has a match in their hand.
That’s the whole idea – you will comply because you are a good boy and don’t want to look stupid or get hurt.
I live on the west coast for one, second I have a young family(2yo) and wife to support;
Mortgage and career.
I’ll leave it to the men and women who can go.
Y’all have my support.
I do what I can when I can, vote, petition, donate to pro2a causes.
I don’t go looking for trouble.
My strategy is defensive, I leave the rest to
Suddenly those who are going “have your support”? That is not what your last post said! Are you a ‘bot or a troll?
“The Press are the enemy of the people”
President Donald Trump
I suggest everyone use a camera to film and take pictures. The Press is not your friend in the gun community. They will lie about us. Upload your video to counter the soon to come lies. It’s what saved the Covington kids. No one has a expectation of privacy in a public space.
Film the reporters too.
Seems as if Virginia gun owners failed to pay attention to things that deserved significant attention in the last election.The make up of the state legislature, and the occupant of the governor’s office. Having blown the above mentioned, they are now sort of stuck with the result of their inattention.
There are ways to fix that, and some don’t even include violence.
An armed “full kit” rally with people who can’t spell “opportunity” and apparently some LARPers who don’t actually know how to wear a carrier?
Yeah, I’m gonna go with “no” on that.
I won’t be there but I’d advise people to follow the law and keep their cool on this one. You could turn this into a massive PR victory for us or snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
How could it be a PR victory? Even if nothing happens the media will still spin or lie and make us look like psychotic assholes.
Mind you that’s not a reason not to go, in fact it’s an excellent reason to make it a show of force because “giving them ammo” is only a concern if they’re afraid of blatantly lying, which they’re not. There’s no way to turn this into good PR so it needs to be a show of force and solidarity against the vermin who have publicly threatened to murder us
I’ve outlined this elsewhere today. We don’t need the media. Think outside the box instead of screaming at the walls of that box.
Livestream everything, post on social media. Use tools, feel human. Keeps them in check and gets the message out by going around the media just like Trump. That’s why the media hates Trump because he doesn’t need them and routinely goes around them.
Thousands peacefully protesting will get eyeballs whether CNN wants the event to get views or not. Fuck man, the video of the Christchurch shooting was BANNED and they tried to scrub it from the net. Millions still saw it and that’s some snuff flick shit.
Do this right and it’s all over the Reddit. Like it or not and for better or for worse Reddit is extremely powerful. It makes and/or breaks people literally every day. Want young people on your side, which you desperately need? This is how you do it.
Correct, the generation coming into power, Millennials neither watch “conventional” news nor care about it’s content. This is the “connected” generation who trusts social media more than anything else. They are bankrupting newspapers, television and even internet news media. So stream everything, make the most out of every social media channel available. Be wary of open mikes, of cameral angles. Make everything (in what Techies call it, not the Birkenstock wearing Californian granola definition) “organic.” Remember your audience has nothing in common with you.
One needs to be very careful about the image one wants to project and recognize who are the generation coming into power. A very large group of legitimate voters will become eligible between now and November [not counting dead Demoncraps voting multiple times] and keep in mind that most of them do not support any type of conservative ideals.
If the building was stormed, hundreds of people killed… and the governor removed. Would that be victory or defeat?
One and then the other. Ultimately probably not in our favor.
No law has actually been passed at this point and unless that happens before the protest there wouldn’t be an argument that it was overthrow of a tyrant/resistance to an unjust law but rather you’d be impeding the legislature from it’s duties via insurrection. Those duties theoretically could be that they’d have voted to reject the proposed measures and since you didn’t allow that to happen the storming of the building would be both illegal and unjust under and logical review of the situation.
At that point we’d have a big problem.
This is the end. Beautiful friend. This is the end. My only friend, the end.
All hail the lizard king!
So if the Governor of a State decides that the State Statue preventing prohibition or banning of firearms during a declared emergency doesn’t pertain to him, is that blatant out in the open TYRANNY?
Because Virginia law clearly states he can’t ban firearms:
Code of Virginia
Table of Contents » Title 44. Military and Emergency Laws » Chapter 3.2. Emergency Services and Disaster Law » § 44-146.15. Construction of chapter
§ 44-146.15. Construction of chapter.
Nothing in this chapter is to be construed to:
(1) Limit, modify, or abridge the authority of the Governor to exercise any powers vested in him under other laws of this Commonwealth independent of, or in conjunction with, any provisions of this chapter;
(2) Interfere with dissemination of news or comment on public affairs; but any communications facility or organization, including, but not limited to, radio and television stations, wire services, and newspapers, may be required to transmit or print public service messages furnishing information or instructions in connection with actual or pending disaster;
(3) Empower the Governor, any political subdivision, or any other governmental authority to in any way limit or prohibit the rights of the people to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by Article I, Section 13 of the Constitution of Virginia or the Second Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, including the otherwise lawful possession, carrying, transportation, sale, or transfer of firearms except to the extent necessary to ensure public safety in any place or facility designated or used by the Governor, any political subdivision of the Commonwealth, or any other governmental entity as an emergency shelter or for the purpose of sheltering persons;
Did you actually read the exceptions for banning firearms.
except to the extent necessary to ensure public safety in any place or facility designated or used by the Governor, any political subdivision of the Commonwealth, or any other governmental entity as an emergency shelter or for the purpose of sheltering persons;
Now that doesn’t mean it’s a good interpretation but it’s not so clear cut that you can avoid this being the kind of back and forth through lawyers.
Fair enough, patriots should stay out of the square where no guns are permitted. Would they prefer people just surround the entire city? That should make everyone feel safe.
Replying to my own comment: Actually we should help out the police at the check points, but stay outside of the area where it’s illegal. Police our own and ensure that we don’t have any agitators in the crowd. Thank people for showing up. It will be great optics that get the point across that we are law abiding, but also armed.
That is a really good idea.
Lots of big talk in this thread. Many keyboard warriors. Doubt any of them will actually shot up in VA and do anything. They are just trying to incite others to illegal acts.
Pardon me, your Freudian slip is showing.
“Doubt any of them will actually shot up in VA”
A person with so many anal cues in his name shouldn’t be talking about Freudian slips.
So you perceive ‘anal cues‘ in my handle?
Do you think miners in West Virginia are somehow related to ‘anal cues’?
I think Freud would call that ‘projection’.
Gov. Blackface and his clan as quoted by MSN from USA Today, “Northam has worked to dispel the idea that he intends to go ‘door-to-door’ with authorities to take away people’s guns. ‘We have no intention of calling out the National Guard. We’re not going to cut off people’s electricity. We’re not going to go door-to-door and confiscate individual’s weapons,’ Northam said Jan. 7 alongside Democratic lawmakers. ‘We are going to pass common-sense legislation that will keep guns out of dangerous hands and keep Virginia safer. It is just that simple.’
Seems like some one is not being consistent somewhere and more fake news, again.
The single choke point entrance will probably have a metal detector, or officers with wands checking entrants for weapons. Guaranteed.
Commies in the wire America.
Possible facial recognition used to catalogue individuals for Red Flag orders.
Ignore my wife and her drama. She comes here because her friend’s are worn out by her manic phases.
See you in Richmond. 2nd Amendment rights are not 2nd class rights rights….
The unnamed “TTAG Contributor” who wrote this article seems to be making the foolish assumption that Governor Northam wants to avoid violence at the Pro-Gun Rally.
That is exactly the opposite of the truth. Everything indicates that he and the rabid anti-gun left WANT violence because it will prove that they have been right all along.
Time for about 5000 LEGALLY armed United States Citizens to show up and overwhelm them just by virtue of shear numbers and voices, let the TRAITOROUS demoncrats make a move against United States Citizens exercising THEIR RIGHTS to free speech for all the world to see.
Power to the Prols!!
2A has been crushed in the peoples Republic of Virginian and Northam and the Stalinist’s have already declared victory.
ATTENTION READ THIS LATEST NEWS ON HEAVILY ARMED NEO NAZI’S BEING ARRESTED BEFORE VIRGINIA RALLY.
This is one heck of an insane black shoe polish face dude.
Virginia is dealing with a seriously insane governor.
Send in some doctors to diagnose this guy right away to have him removed
and get some medical attention.
He’s going to create one hell of a civil war we don’t need.
However, with all the gun-grabbers running around, there may not be another
choice to remain free.
The terrorist who were just arrested in Virginia are clearly liberals, you can tell from the charges against them.
“ Lemley and Bilbrough were charged with transporting and harboring aliens and conspiring to do so. Lemley was also charged with transporting a machine gun and disposing of a firearm and ammunition to an alien unlawfully present in the U.S. Both Lemley and Mathews were charged with transporting a firearm and ammunition with intent to commit a felony and Mathews was also charged with being an alien in possession of a firearm and ammunition.”
“Transporting and harboring aliens“, clearly these are socialist liberals who were in favor of open borders, right?