Starving SlideFire, Celebrating a Massacre and the Pink Pistols is Growing – TTAG Daily Digest

SlideFire Bump Fire Stock Lawsuit Bank

courtesy thetrace.org

Bank Withheld $1.6 Million From Top Bump Stock Maker After Las Vegas Shooting

The financial system’s attack on gun makers and equipment companies started earlier than we knew . . .

The inventor and manufacturer of the bump stock is suing the bank that once processed its online sales, claiming the financial institution is holding a sizable sum of its money “hostage” as a result of the Las Vegas massacre. Experts say the dispute could have implications for the way financial firms deal with clients from the firearms industry.

In a federal lawsuit filed in May, Slide Fire Solutions alleges that Utah-based Merrick Bank improperly withheld more than $1.6 million in a reserve fund following the mass shooting. Merrick Bank retained the money after the two companies dissolved their business relationship in December 2017.

In the suit, Slide Fire accuses Merrick Bank of attempting to “shield themselves from tangential, hypothetical, unviable, and currently non-existent liability in personal injury lawsuits.”

The bank argues that threats to Slide Fire’s business arising from the Las Vegas shooting justifies its decision to withhold the funds.

Clinton, Giffords, students from Parkland and Chicago attend 25th anniversary of SF mass shooting

Because there’s no better way to commemorate a massacre than with a lavish dinner celebrating Hillary Clinton . . .

The Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence marked the 25th Anniversary of San Francisco’s worst mass shooting, with an awards dinner Thursday night that remembered the victims and survivors of the tragedy.

Former U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton gave the keynote address and received a Courageous Leadership award from the Center. Students from Parkland and Chicago also were honored and gave speeches, talking about how gun violence had changed their lives. Former Congresswoman Gabby Gifford, herself a victim of gun violence, addressed the crowd and called for action.

More than 800 people gathered to remember lives lost to gun violence.

Pink Pistols Gay NRA Gun Rights LGBT

courtesy dailywire.com and Pink Pistols

‘Gay NRA’ Sees Surge In Membership. Report: Here’s Why.

Gun rights and personal defense are for everyone . . .

One of the turning points for many in the LGBT community, Abboud found, is the horrific mass shooting by a radical Islamist at the Pulse gay club in Orlando that resulted in 52 people dead. Pink Pistols’ San Diego chapter president Piper Smith told Abboud that her decision to embrace her Second Amendment right to arm herself was directly inspired by the massacre.

Charles Macklin Shooting Chicago CCW Fire Lieutenant

courtesy chicagotribune.com

‘When has it ever become legal to shoot someone because they’re pulling off in your car?’

Maybe it’s a good idea not to steal a car in the first place. But if he wasn’t a threat, that’s a reasonable question . . .

Janique Walker knows the cost of a split second.

Her younger brother, 17-year-old Charles Macklin, was killed while trying to steal a Jeep from a Chicago fire lieutenant on the West Side last August. The lieutenant had left the Jeep running, and Macklin jumped behind the wheel.

The lieutenant ran in front of the Jeep and shouted, “Get out,” according to a police report. When Macklin began pulling away, the lieutenant drew his gun and fired through the open driver’s side window, hitting the teen in the chest.

Macklin’s last words were, “Sorry, bro,” according to the police report. The teen died on the pavement. He did not have a gun on him.

courtesy townhall.com

NRA Announces Support for Suit Against New Jersey Ammunition Magazine Confiscation Scheme

The state of New Jersey wants to grab your standard capacity magazines . . .

The National Rifle Association announced on Wednesday that it will be supporting a lawsuit filed by a local gun-rights organization against New Jersey’s law requiring the destruction or surrender of certain ammunition magazines.

The NRA said it is backing the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs in their lawsuit against the state. The lawsuit, filed on Wednesday, claims the new law could affect as many as one million New Jersey gun owners and is an unconstitutional violation of the Second Amendment. The NRA described the law as an undue restriction on law-abiding New Jerseyans and ineffective at fighting crime.

“Magazine bans do not deter criminals or improve public safety,” Chris Cox, executive director of the NRA’s Institute for Legislative Action, said in a statement. “Instead, they irrationally burden the rights of law-abiding gun owners. The National Rifle Association is proud to assist the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs in this legal challenge.”

comments

  1. avatar pwrserge says:

    Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. The way I see it, that’s one less career criminal for the Chiraq legal system to let go with a slap on the wrist.

    1. avatar California Richard says:

      Yep….. these gun grabbers like to put a monetary cost on the “lives taken by gun violence”. I don’t see a contributing member of society lost here, who, according to the EPA, is worth $6.9 million. With his death a t young age, the overall value of everyone else’s life just went up a little bit.

      P.S.- – single shot to the chest huh?…. must have been a 6.5 Creedmore.

      1. avatar Bob in Calif says:

        enough with the creedmoor shit.

        1. avatar Bfitts says:

          Someone is jelly. Don’t be jelly bro.

        2. avatar John in AK says:

          Lighten up, there, Bob. Just because it won’t be long before you won’t be able to possess anything shootier than a flintlock musket and one round for it, is no reason to lose your sense of humor. It’s not OUR fault that you live in California. . .
          Besides, the advent of the 6.5mm CM, the One Cartridge To Rule Them All, is such a miraculous thing that already the sea levels are starting to fall, Antarctica is freezing up again, dogs and cats are living together in harmony, and good 5-cent cigars are readily available in the new mom-and-pop stores springing up all over America, building on the ashes where once stood Big Box Stores.
          And I no longer suffer from the Heartbreak of Psoriasis.

        3. avatar Tim says:

          6.5 Creedmoor is even bringing peace to the Korean Peninsula.

        4. avatar Joseph says:

          Yeah the creed more shit is getting old. You folks are about as funny as Kathy Griffin.

        5. avatar UPS Driver says:

          I agree Bob. Enough with the stupid Creedmore bull shit. It’s like telling the same joke over ….and over ….and over.

        6. avatar Creedmoor Vaquero says:

          Blasphemy!

      2. avatar AngryAZ says:

        At least he still has his soul since not a 45

    2. avatar Res says:

      The clip missed an important point.

      ” He fired his gun toward the teen to “stop the offender from running him over with his vehicle.”

      The clipping and article emotionalize the situation to make the thief look like the victim. What is wrong withe the chicago tribune? If the firefighter had been run over and killed do you think they would have spent as much ink?

      1. avatar Iillinois_Minion says:

        This incident happened in August of 2017. The Tribune has revisited the topic several times since then.

        Follow the links in the article and the Tribune also investigated how many incidents occurred involving CCW people.

      2. avatar FedUp says:

        The clipping and article emotionalize the situation to make the thief look like the victim. What is wrong withe the chicago tribune?

        What is wrong with all Progressives?
        They martyrize violent criminals so they can demonize crime victims, that’s what’s wrong with them.

        1. avatar ollie says:

          Progressives are merely casting a bad light on all American middle class working people and property owners – those folks who “Built” the USA.
          Progressives was a strict Two Class system, political elite in charge and ignorant sheep to lord over. No workers needed, money grows on trees.

        2. avatar neiowa says:

          Dem ignut folk be progtard VOTERS. Follow the money.

      3. avatar rt66paul says:

        He was just going to run him over a little bit.

    3. avatar LarryinTX says:

      To answer the question, though; In Texas and in some other states, it has been legal *forever* to shoot and kill anyone attempting to flee with your property valued at more than $500. Everyone should have such a law.

      1. avatar JohnS says:

        It is in fact legal in Illinois to use deadly force to prevent a felony:

        720 ILCS 5/7-3) (from Ch. 38, par. 7-3)
        Sec. 7-3. Use of force in defense of other property.
        (a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other’s trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with either real property (other than a dwelling) or personal property, lawfully in his possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his immediate family or household or of a person whose property he has a legal duty to protect. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

        and

        (720 ILCS 5/2-8) (from Ch. 38, par. 2-8)
        Sec. 2-8. “Forcible felony”. “Forcible felony” means treason, first degree murder, second degree murder, predatory criminal sexual assault of a child, aggravated criminal sexual assault, criminal sexual assault, robbery, burglary, residential burglary, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated kidnaping, kidnaping, aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
        (Source: P.A. 88-277; 89-428, eff. 12-13-95; 89-462, eff. 5-29-96.)

        and

        (720 ILCS 5/18-3)
        Sec. 18-3. Vehicular hijacking.
        (a) A person commits vehicular hijacking when he or she knowingly takes a motor vehicle from the person or the immediate presence of another by the use of force or by threatening the imminent use of force.
        (b) Sentence. Vehicular hijacking is a Class 1 felony.

        What is legal and what may be wise can be different.

        1. avatar Nigel the Expat says:

          I read that as ‘illegal’ at first and was having a serious WTF moment. 😉

    4. avatar Nigel the Expat says:

      “The teen died on the pavement. He did not have a gun on him.”

      Darwin was riding shotgun.

  2. avatar No one of consequence says:

    Well, maybe the teen shouldn’t have been shot, maybe it’s not a fair punishment for grand theft auto.

    But life isn’t fair, there aren’t any do-overs on the really important stuff, and actions can have consequences that aren’t all apparent when we’re contemplating said actions. Broadly speaking, the consequences for doing something wrong can be more severe when you do it around people who are armed, vs those that are disarmed. If you understand this, it’s a deterrent for wrongdoing. If you don’t, well…see Serge’s comment just above.

    1. avatar Matt in FL says:

      Broadly speaking, the consequences for doing something wrong can be more severe when you do it around people who are armed, vs those that are disarmed.

      You might even say, “an armed society is a polite society?”

    2. avatar Res says:

      In this instance it appears to be the conequence of potentially running someone over with a stolen car.

  3. avatar Former .308 Shooter says:

    Oh let the sun beat down upon my face
    Stars fill my dreams
    I am a traveler of both time and space
    To be where I have been

    To sit with elders of the gentle race
    This world has seldom seen
    They talk of days for which they sit and wait
    All will be revealed

    Talk and songs from tongues of lilting grace
    Sounds caress my ears
    But not a word I heard could I relay
    The story was quite clear

    All I see turns to brown
    As the sun burns the ground
    And my eyes fill with sand
    As I scan this wasted land

    Tryin’ to find
    Tryin’ to find
    Where I’ve been

    Oh pilot of the storm that leaves no trace
    Like thoughts inside a dream
    Heed the path that lead me to that place
    Yellow dessert screen

    My Shangi-La beneath the summer moon
    I will return again
    Like the dust that blows high in June
    When I’m moving through Creedmoor

    1. avatar New Creedmoor Army says:

      Oh, I wish I was in the land of Creedmoor! Power there is not forsaken!
      Look away, look away, look away in Creedmoor!
      Advance the flag of Creedmoor, hurray! Hurray!
      In Creedmoors land we’ll make our stand to live and die for creedmoor!
      Away, away, away down south in Creedmore!

      1. avatar SongMangler says:

        In the immortal words of CCR also known as Creedmore Clearwater Revival
        Accompanied by former hood Charles Leadchest Macklin

        Well, you wake up in the mornin’, you see the jeep running
        And the man is stand in front, he’s gotta piece in his hand
        Ain’t no food upon the table and no pork up in the pan
        But you better not complain, boy, you get in trouble with the man
        Let the creedmore rifle, blow a hole through me
        Let the creedmore rifle, blow a hole through me
        Let the creedmore rifle, blow an ever lovin hole right through me
        Yonder come Miss Walker, how in the world did you know?
        By the way she wears her jacket and the poodle cut upon her head
        Cheap piece of bling on her necklace, piece of paper in her hand
        She come to see the lawyer, she wants to get back at the man
        Let the……

        1. avatar MDB says:

          i thought CCR stood for Creedmore Creedmoor Re-Creedmore….

          If i’m wrong, they need to change their name.

        2. avatar tsbhoa.p.jr says:

          “and when you ask them, ‘how much should we give?’
          ooh, they only answer creed more, more!
          it ain’t me, it ain’t me, i ain’t no six five gun, lord.
          it ain’t me, it ain’t me, i’m three oh eight and done, done, done.”

    2. avatar Former .308 Shooter says:

      Of course, the live version will necessarily include the obligatory 8 minute long drum solo.

      1. avatar Bloving says:

        How’s this for a new user name, Gov?
        “If Only Ruger Made the Vaquero in 6.5 Creedmore”

        Too long?
        🤠

        1. avatar Former .308 Shooter says:

          I am SO using that tomorrow.

          Sadly that will be it for the official TTAG inaugural ‘Creedmoor Week’. Not that we can’t occasionally take a poke at the round my Hornady reloa ding manual describes as ‘Very possibly the most well balanced cartridge to ever grace the pages of the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloa ding…’ But Sunday it’s back to the plain old boring Gov. Already looking forward to Creedmoor Week 2019. Second week of June!

        2. avatar The Army of Northern Creedmooria says:

          I think “every girl crazy bout a creedmoor man,” is still the best out of all this.

        3. avatar Former .308 Shooter says:

          ZZ Top was pretty damn iconic.

      2. avatar barnbwt says:

        In the midnight hour she creed, moor, moor, moor
        With a rebel yell she creed, moor, moor, moor
        In the midnight hour, Creed, moor, moor, moor
        With a rebel yell, moor, moor, moor
        Moor, Creedmoor

    3. avatar Former .308 Shooter says:

      Now the king told the boogie men
      You have to let that Raga drop
      The oil down the desert way
      Has been shaken to the top

      The sheik he drove his Cadillac
      He went a cruising down the ville
      The muezzin was a standing
      On the radiator grill

      Jeremy don’t like it
      Shootin’ the Creedmoor
      Shoot the Creedmoor

      Jeremy don’t like it
      Shootin’ the Creedmoor
      Shoot the Creedmoor

      1. avatar Former .308 Shooter says:

        Can’t say I’m not a little disappointed in the lack of Clash love here.

  4. avatar GS650G says:

    Don’t steal cars and your chances of being shot during a theft of a car goes down dramatically.

  5. avatar former water walker says:

    Wow they “reported” the dead car thief was unarmed?!? I’d think a 2000 pound car qualifies as “armed”…I see this BS all the time on what passes as “news”. Sorry but I don’t give a rat’s anus about SlideFire’s problems.

    1. avatar No one of consequence says:

      If not for SlideFire in particular, how about on the general principle here?

    2. avatar pwrserge says:

      You don’t care that a legitimate company producing legal products was defrauded of over a million dollars because “guns”? Really?

      1. avatar Southern Cross says:

        The bank is setting a dangerous precedent. If the bank is not called to account over this they and other banks may decide this is a normal practice.

    3. avatar CarlosT says:

      I care about bank fraud and misappropriation of funds, especially if it becomes endemic as a tactic against the firearms industry.

      1. avatar Geoff PR says:

        You’re awfully kind referring to blatant theft as ‘misappropriation’, Carlos…

        1. avatar CarlosT says:

          I make a habit of restraining myself, but you make it point that even that has its limits.

      2. avatar Ed Schrade says:

        People, leave the damned banks and go to credit unions !

    4. avatar Big Bill says:

      “Sorry but I don’t give a rat’s anus about SlideFire’s problems.”

      Isn’t that simply a paraphrasing of, “I don’t own one, so I don’t care”?
      IOW, the FUDD’s creed.
      (No, not “Creedmore”!)

    5. avatar barnbwt says:

      Your mags & semiautos will be banned within a decade because of your ignorant, clueless Fuddery. Bumpstocks today, Binaries tomorrow, high cap mags soon after, and eventually anything that can be rapidly fired.

      All because you don’t approve of how fast your own guns can shoot.

  6. avatar Rick the Bear says:

    I wonder how a firefighter got a pistol permit. Hmmmm

    1. avatar pwrserge says:

      Easily. Illinois is actually a “shall issue” state.

      1. avatar Rick the Bear says:

        Oops. I’m still living in the past.

      2. avatar Scoutino says:

        Rules for an Illinois Concealed Carry License for Illinois residents

        -Must be at least 21 years old.

        -Must have a valid Firearm Owner’s Identification card.

        -Must have not been convicted or found guilty of a misdemeanor involving the threat of physical force or violence to any person within the past five years.

        -Must not have two or more violations related to driving while under the influence of alcohol, other drugs or intoxicating compounds within the past five years.

        -Must not be subject to a pending arrest warrant, prosecution or proceeding for an offense or action that could lead to disqualification to own or possess a firearm.

        -Must have not been in a residential or court-ordered treatment for alcoholism, alcohol detoxification, or drug treatment within the past five years.

        -No objections are filed by law enforcement.

        Checklist prior to applying for an Illinois Concealed Carry License for Illinois Residents

        -16 hours of Concealed Carry firearms training provided by an Illinois State Police-approved instructor.

        -Electronic copy of training certificate(s).

        -An Illinois Digital I.D. (can be obtained through link on ccl4illinois.com)

        -A valid driver’s license or state identification card.

        -A valid FOID card.

        -A head and shoulder electronic photograph taken within the last 30 days.

        -Proof of the last 10 years of residency.

        -Fingerprints.

        -$150.00 payable with a credit card or electronic check.

        Source: Illinois State Police website

        I would not call 16 hours of mandatory training and $150 fee to exercise natural, constitutionally protected human right “easy”, but that’s just me.

  7. avatar Geoff PR says:

    A late addition for the ‘Digest’ –

    Remember the woman who was busted for concealing a Kimber .380 in her ‘Hoochi-Coo’?

    It got her 2 years in the greybar hotel :

    “Woman Gets Two Years For Gun In Body Cavity
    Defendant’s “projected discharge date” is listed as September 2019″

    “JUNE 14–A woman who had a loaded handgun hidden in her vagina at the time of her arrest last year has been sentenced to two years in state prison on weapons and heroin possession charges, Illinois court records show.”

    http://thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/anika-witt-sentenced-902843

    1. avatar Just Sayin says:

      ^From “thesmokinggun…”

      That’s what she said.

      1. avatar Klaus Von Schmitto says:

        I hope FireClean was her choice for gun oil. It’s non-toxic!

        1. avatar Tom in Oregon says:

          Or frog lube.
          For that minty fresh smell…

  8. avatar Former .308 Shooter says:

    I wonder what the reaction would be if banks started treating abortion providers the same as they’ve been treating firearms/accessories companies.

    1. avatar Model 31 says:

      Liberals would dust off their copies of the Constitution with all the government restraint sections cut out and start blathering about Interstate Commerce or something.

  9. avatar Geoff PR says:

    “This sends a message that [working with gunmakers] is an expensive and nasty business for banks to be in,” Heidi Li Feldman, a tort law expert and legal theorist at Georgetown University Law School, told The Trace. “It’s a good example of a regulated market doing its thing.”

    That a bank can contemplate stealing money from a customer that the bank made money from in fees is nothing short of *chilling*.

    That bank needs to be made a very expensive example of for pulling that kind of stunt with a civil right…

    1. avatar Mark N. says:

      The bank did not exactly “steal” the money. The bank obviously had loaned SlideFire money, and they unilaterally decided to hold the funds in a reserve account as security for repayment of the loan, given the possibility that the company would soon be sued or go bankrupt. I suspect that the fine print of those massive loan documents allowed them to do so. Then again, banks are stupid, as shown by this case and Freedom Munitions; they are so concerned about getting their money repaid (plus lots of interest) that their actions precipitate the fate they were protecting against. Self fulfilling prophecy and all that.

  10. avatar Nanashi says:

    Why spend the money to grab a GWACS lower if you’re going to put non-freefloated upper on it? It’s not even mid-length.

    1. avatar anonymoose says:

      Have you compared the weight of a single-shielded CAR handguard to a free-float forend?

    2. avatar knightofbob says:

      It’s probably an older, Cav Arms produced receiver. They used to offer upper plastic that was color-matched to whatever lower you ordered.

  11. avatar TrueBornSonofLiberty says:

    I couldn’t possibly care less if the car thief was unarmed. IMO, a person should be able to defend their property with deadly force if necessary. Furthermore, any unauthorized entry into a person’s home should also excuse deadly force.

    1. avatar CZJay says:

      It’s ridiculous you have to let them walk away with all your shit as they laugh in your face because you can’t defend it without going to prison.

  12. avatar cisco dik says:

    Had cars been banned, this would’ve never happened.

    1. avatar ironicatbest says:

      Are you saying ban gunz or just want cor vetting?

  13. avatar CarlosT says:

    I think eventually there will be independent financial services that will arise from all of this. If banking and other industries become explicitly politicized, then there will be a demand for services for those not on the left. At that point, pressure tactics will be irrelevant, or even counterproductive.

    1. avatar Former .308 Shooter says:

      This is true. While some business seek to dominate entire markets, others look for a niche. Servicing at least a third of the country is one hell of a niche.

      1. avatar barnbwt says:

        It could have been the NRA to make more money than they could have ever imagined…but they’re morons who couldn’t manage a lemonade stand profitably.

  14. avatar anonymoose says:

    >stupid kid got shot trying to steal a car
    SHEEEEEIT, das rayciss mang.

    and nothing of value was lost.

  15. avatar Geoff "Mess with the Bull, get the Horns" PR says:

    “‘When has it ever become legal to shoot someone because they’re pulling off in your car?’”

    Am I the only one who when I read that, thought it meant the person was, er, ‘pleasuring’ themselves in the car when they got shot?

    If so, they had the rare experience of coming and going at the same time… 😉

    1. avatar Just Sayin says:

      ^LoL
      Hell yes!
      Guess that makes us old…

  16. avatar TheUnspoken says:

    Though being named pink pistols, I am glad the P7 wasn’t painted pink, and instead it is a pink rifle. Good job keeping it classy on the p7, looks like it is well used, maybe a police trade. Just glad it isn’t leopard print or something. I have seen pink and leopard mp5s, pretty horrifying… Sure, your gun, you can do as you please, but, if you want to play dress up, there are ARs and Glocks aplenty!

  17. avatar ironicatbest says:

    They took an otherwise ugly Gunn( Ak) and made it even uglier with that slide fire. I like my AK however it is kinda ugly. That Ruger falling block that jwt’s got, that’s what I call a beautiful firearm. Sleek lines, blued steel, wood stock yeah man. Browning B78 looks nice too,,, the p08 is about as pretty a pistol as I could ask for. ..Revolvers ,1851 navy. No matter what you do with plastic yah just can’t top those..That’s just my opinion.

    1. avatar Gralnok says:

      Nothing wrong with ugly, so long as it works.😉

    2. avatar Mark N. says:

      1851 Navy with ivory grips. Just sayin.’

  18. avatar Gun Owning American says:

    Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

  19. avatar Gralnok says:

    I’d shoot someone driving off in my car. However, I’m never going to leave it running. Also, not sure my car is an ideal getaway car or drug hauler, so no real reason to steal it.

    1. avatar Harley says:

      Joy riders don’t need a reason as long as it just goes. Sometimes you can get back relatively unharmed, sometimes just an empty hull. If it gets invloved in a police chase you may get it back totalled out in a crash. May actually kill a bystander or two in the chase and not get it back at all until case closed and perp is sentenced to jail because of it held as evidence.

      Insurance would likely not pay out either on liability or property loss if found you were negligent by leaviing the keys in it running or not. Some states will prosecute the owner for leaving the keys in the car, running or not, stolen or not.

  20. avatar CZJay says:

    I don’t like the notion that Americans can’t defend their property from unlawful taking. It shouldn’t matter he was 17. It shouldn’t matter it was a Jeep. It shouldn’t matter if the lieutenant has insurance. If someone is taking your property and they refuse to stop stealing it when confronted you should have every right to do what’s necessary to stop them. If they are willing to die for a piece of your property that’s their choice.

    What if I have a car that has been heavily modified with very expensive parts, will the insurance company cover all of it? What if the car is rare and/or old? What happens to your rates after you make a claim?

    I look at property as hours of someone’s life spent working. If you take someone’s $80,000 car it’s like taking years away from them, as if they were kidnapped by the thief. Insurance doesn’t cover everything. What’s not covered will require many more days of your life to replace. It’s like the thief is holding you hostage and requiring you to work just to get back where you were before they came along.

    I understand not shooting someone for a misdemeanor, but if it’s a felony it should be a non issue. If you punish people for exercising their right to protect their property the criminals will take advantage of the situation. In England, they don’t chase after robbers who run away on mopeds. Guess how many drive-by moped crimes there are now.

    1. avatar WCC says:

      This. Thank you. And you needn’t qualify this analysis as “the way you look at it.” This is simply the truth of the matter. When you steal property, you are negating hours out of a person’s finite supply on this earth. They can’t be replaced. He doesn’t get those hours back unless he gets the value back. It is, in essence, a partial murder. For instance, if you make $50 per hour and he takes your $500 TV, that’s ten hours of your life you can never get back. Specifically, it is ten hours you spent working for someone else rather than yourself, in expectation of negotiated compensation in the form of that TV. You went to his office and you worked your rear off, rather than being at home with your kids, making meals for them, teaching them to hunt and fish, whatever’s your pleasure, on the promise that you would be able to get this TV in return. Why you wanted the TV is no one else’s business in a free society. People who say “it’s just a TV” can give you their TVs, if they really think so. See how many do. It’s not about the TV, it’s about the choice, and the time. That was your choice, as to how to spend your time, and the thief now has taken that choice, and that time, away. Now, if you want to watch movies with your children, you have to leave them and go back to that office for another ten hours, because the previous ten have vanished from your history, as if they never happened. As if you were dead for that brief but all too real interval. And if people say, “It’s just ten hours,” they can give up ten hours of their spare time to you. Ten hours of time with their children—of visitation rights, perhaps—or one of their few precious deer hunting days this season, spent doing your job, at your place of work. See how many do. The cultural and legal proscriptions against using lethal force to stop such an act are wrong.

      The other thing that is wrong is the conflation with “punishment” or “justice” of an armed person’s response to a crime in progress. The stopping of a crime in progress and the pursuit and punishment of a criminal after he has successfully committed a crime are two separate things, and both are distinct from revenge.

      The justice system absolutely should be blind, and divorced from the victim. If a crime has occurred and the perpetrator has “gotten away,” has completed the criminal act and egress, it is a police force which should pursue him and a further separate attorney structure which should bring suit against him (so that the police who must engage violently and personally with a suspect are not also in a position to seek and influence his punishment). This allows for a deterrence of crime while preventing both revenge and vigilantism, which are anathema to a moral society and morally unhealthy for the individual.

      Intercession in the crime in progress has no kinship with these after-the-fact response actions. By definition, in a personal crime as it is happening, the perpetrator’s identity cannot be in doubt to the victim, and the victim’s response is not related to punishment but to escalation of a fight, with the intent of stopping the illegal violent act. Whatever the perpetrator’s goal, his crime is an act in violation of the liberty of the victim, and the victim has a natural right to fight back. If the victim has a right to fight, he has a right and moral duty to win, and to win with the maximum margin of safety for himself and all others who are not violating the liberty of their neighbors. The victim is not shooting to “punish” the perpetrator with death for the crime of stealing an hour of the victim’s life. He’s shooting in order to win decisively and safely a present fight over that hour. To prevent it being taken. He has the right to do so as long as he has the opportunity to do so–generally until the criminal has broken visual contact and there begins a logical possibility of doubt about the perpetrator’s identity. (The point at which we go from perpetrator to suspect.)

      If a person has a right to defend himself in a fight that was brought against him involuntarily, then no restriction on his ability to escalate against that perpetrator is reasonable. Any such restriction is to say, “You should have given the perpetrator more of a chance to succeed,” which is anathema to justice in a definitively involuntary scenario. Yes, a two hundred pound man should be able to shoot a one hundred pound woman if she walks up to him on the street, out of the blue, and starts punching him with her teenie, tiny fists, because parity is not at issue. Fairness is not at issue. And while the crime is in progress, preserving the life of the perpetrator is not at issue. What is at issue is the right of the victim to win the present fight as efficiently as possible, and at no point during the crime to empower the perpetrator of the crime.

      For this same reason, any restriction on a victim’s ability to fight back in a robbery is also unreasonable. Whether I take a part of your life by being bigger than you and grabbing your neck or by being faster than you and grabbing your purse, I am still bringing violence to you in an assault on your liberty, and you have a natural right to fight back. And if you have a natural right to fight, you have a natural right to win as efficiently and safely as possible. Any restriction on your ability to win is, again, anathema to your right to fight. For this reason, you absolutely do have a right to shoot a fleeing robber in the back, if he is fleeing with your property. Until he has broken contact such that his identity could be in doubt (such that were you to give chase, the best you could hope to do is catch up to someone who is “most likely” the perpetrator, and is therefore a suspect)—until that point, the fight for your life, or that part of it which he is taking, is still on, because you still have a chance to win it and prevent his success.

      Yes, once he has broken contact and there is room for a shadow of a doubt as to his identity, the window has closed and the justice system should pick up the process from there. Follow, if you like, and identify the suspect to the police, or even make a citizen’s arrest, but the fight is over, he won, and any act of violence against the person you at this point suspect of being the perpetrator is an attempt at justice after the fact and is in danger of becoming revenge or vigilantism.

      Yes, you should be held responsible for stray rounds in your shooting. The purpose of empowering you to shoot—or to cut with a sword or call in an air strike or to employ orbital lasers—is to empower you to win the present fight, the one which was brought to you, with maximum safety for yourself and those fellow citizens who like you have not willfully violated the rights of others. Your right to defend your liberty does not extend to the point of infringing on the liberty of law abiding neighbors.

      Yes, intercession on behalf of a second party (I.e., defense of another) should be covered under the same principles given above, but with the caveat that as a third party intercessor, the identity of the perpetrator is not necessarily beyond doubt to you, and as such your actions should be subject to review by your peers (properly versed in the principles above) against the “reasonable man” standard, as to whether or not you were justified in identifying a given person as the perpetrator in the event as it played out. If you watched the kid grab the lady’s purse and run, while she screamed helplessly, “Stop, thief!”, then your intercession is sound. If you came upon two men struggling over a TV and picked a side based on which had more tattoos, not so much. If one of them then pulls a gun on the other… even then you should not intercede, because you have no way to know if he is exercising his right to defend his life against the other, and if you draw down, you can only intercede by creating the effect you would at this point be trying to prevent, the taking of a life. Your proper course is to let it play out, and involve the justice system to weigh the survivors dispassionately.

      Yes, the police should take a back seat to the citizens while a crime is in progress. Like the third party citizen in the scenario above, they should not shoot unless and until they can positively identify, beyond any doubt, the perpetrator, and their actions should be subject to the same review by their peers—their citizen peers, not their professional peers—against the reasonable man standard. If they can bring to bear enough force to subdue all parties while preserving the lives thereof, then so be it, but simply shooting one man to save another, with no knowledge of which was the perpetrator, is wrongheaded. The job of the police is not to ensure safety (an impossibility) but to promote liberty by protecting the rights if the law-abiding. The job of the police certainly is not to rush in and mow down everyone engaging in a action they find distasteful.

      These principles, implemented, would lead to a far less violent and more just society than we now endure.

      1. avatar TrueBornSonofLiberty says:

        Your math is wrong. Between income and sales tax it’s more like 20 hours of work or a half a week of full time work. Other than that, you’re spot on.

        1. avatar WCC says:

          Ain’t that the truth. Defense of property against government theft is a whole other discussion.

  21. avatar Klaus Von Schmitto says:

    Not sorry, Bro!

  22. avatar Green Mtn. Boy says:

    The financial system’s attack on the Second Amendment,who made the financial system the arbiters of the Constitution.

  23. avatar Chris T in KY says:

    Only when gays with guns start voting for Liberty will they be trustworthy. Until then they are just a FUDD who has homosexual sex. If you want a Link explaining this then just ask.

    Anyone who fails to support SlideFire really doesn’t understand the second amendment. (very Sad)

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