“George Zimmerman’s defense attorneys on Thursday released photos and text messages from 17-year-old Trayvon Martin’s cellphone ahead of a hearing that will determine whether they can be used at Zimmerman’s murder trial,” foxnews.com reports. “The photos show Martin blowing smoke and extending his middle finger to the camera. The photos also show [Martin holding] a gun and what appears to be a potted marijuana plant. In the text messages, Martin tells a friend that his mother has told him he needs to move out of her house and move in with his father since he was caught skipping school.” More importantly, lawyer Mark O’Mara told Fox’s Megyn Kelly that the texts reveal that Martin was into street fighting. The deceased teen promised to go back and continue a previous battle. Zimmerman’s chances of acquittal just went up. The possibility of rioting, too. Make the jump for a just-released photo of Zimmerman’s head injuries . . .
Is that a Sigma? So sad.
It’s not just a Sigma which is terrible itself but its also poor trigger discipline and a terrible grip on a handgun.
Some people…
But then again Mr. Zimmerman used a Kel-Tec…
I thought it reported he was carrying a Bersa?
Kel-Tec PF9. One round fired from a distance of inches. When police arrived, the fired casing was still in the chamber; it didn’t cycle. Zimmerman’s statement said Martin let go of his head and reached for the gun when his shirt rode up and exposed it – they struggled for it and Martin’s hand was obstructing the slide when he fired. I’ve never heard what type of ammunition it was carrying.
Just how bad are Sigmas anyway?
Been wondering that too. I hear a lot of people bad-mouth them. I’ve never handled or fired a Sigma, so I have no opinion one way or the other.
I own one, as well as an m&p. The sigmas aren’t the best guns in the world, but they’re not as bad as people make then out to be either. The biggest complaint i gave on mine is the trigger…its very heavy, even after doing some work to lighten it. That being said, the trigger is also why i use it as a carry n when i carry a full size, much less chance if of adrenalie helping something stupid happen. But for fun at the range, I’d much rather have my m&p.
It’s a striker fired pistol with a long 12# trigger pull. Not bad, just different.
Sigmas were pretty lame. The newer “SD9 VE” (aka Sigma with a new label) has better machining and quality to it. It’s a no-frills, value-point gun; but it’s also extremely strong competition for “best-bang-for-your-buck” at its price point.
If you’re in the market for something in the $300-400 range, an SD9 VE is worth your time to look at.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/10/tyler-kee/gun-review-smith-wesson-sd9-ve/
Feel free to check out our review of the SD9 VE
I find that those who bad mouth them have never fired one much less own one. S&W made significant improvements with the VE models. The trigger takes some getting used to, but once that is overcome, it is a deadly accurate and reliable handgun. I’d be just as comfortable carrying a newer model Sigma as I would my M&P.
The photo with this post shows an old model Sigma though. It was meant to be a joke, but the Sigma trigger is still pretty sad. Other than that I admire the design.
I bad mouth them because I have fired them. Two of them in fact. A couple of my friends bought them at the same time, brand new at Academy a few years ago.
One jammed every single time. Turns out there was no extractor spring. The other jammed literally about 50% of the time, not sure why cause it didn’t matter what magazine or what ammo was fed through it, it would just always jam regardless of who shot it. My friends both got rid of their pistols and have since bought quality handguns (XD and a Glock).
So yes, given that the two Sigmas I dealt with had an overall 75% FTE rate I freely trash them. Doesn’t help that they have the stain of literally trying to copy Glock and failing miserably.
Sigmas are not bad firearms. The trigger is extremely heavy and gritty, which it was specifically designed to be. Sigmas are extremely reliable and simple to operate.
People complain about the sigma because it is such a blatant knock-off of glock. Glock did indeed sue SW for patent infringment, and pays glock about 20 dollars for every sigma sold.
To continue that comparison, from someone who currently has a G19 and used to have a sigma 9 for many years:
The Sigma was, in my experience, just as reliable as the glock. I never, through my CPL class, or advanced class, or through about 1500 additional rounds fired just for practice, ever, had a SINGLE failure, of any kind, at all, period with my sigma. I have had one stovepipe with my g19, but I don’t consider it less reliable. However, in my individual experience, they are on equal footing.
The sigma has better stock sights (3 dot).
The sigma has a more ergonomic grip for small to medium framed shooters. The gen 4 glock has made the gap smaller on this front, however.
The glock has a better trigger. and by better, i mean, oh my god, the trigger on this glock is night and day amazing compared to the sigma. However, the sigma is perfectly capable of being fired accurately, and with use, can force a shooter to focus on trigger control and make him a better shooter in the long run.
The glock absolutely smokes the sigma in availability of parts, holsters, and accessories. The glock has a superior rail, although still not universal.
For target shooting, the glock is the clear winner. For tactical operations, police forces, etc, the glock wins for simplicity of arms.
However, for your average joe defending his home, or even concealed carrying? I see no reason why the sigma is an inferior firearm to the glock, except in price: About half.
This is coming from someone who sold a sigma and bought a glock, too.
Gloomhound. I was very leery of the bad press sigma’s got until my son bought one. After several trips to the range and no malfunctions of any kind I bought one for myself. I’ve had mine for over a year and have yet to experience a jam.
It fits my hand better than a glock and it’s half the price. As for the trigger pull. I was raised on revolvers and still prefer a revolver. For those of us used to shooting double action revolvers the Sigma trigger feels very familiar.
My only experience was a couple years ago when a friend’s coworker brought his brand new, fresh out of the box Sigma to my friend’s range day. I think he fired it three times before it had some kind of internal failure that none of us could diagnose. The slide was locked in place, just out of battery, and had less than 1/8″ of movement in either direction from there. It would not rack, nor would it go forward fully into battery. With a live round in the pipe, our attempts at field repair were cursory at best. He stuck it back in the box for delivery to a gunsmith later. I have no idea what either the failure or final resolution were.
They are not bad, in fact they are very good guns with the exception of the trigger. The trigger is very hard to pull; until I “fixed” the trigger on mine I was consistently pulling 6 inches to the left at 14 yards. The fault was not mine. The policeman/combat veteran teaching could see me flinching.
Other than that, a good to excellent gun. Very reliable, clean or dirty. Ergonomic grips. I liked the 3 dot sights.
+1
However, I just wanted to say the gritty feel will probably work itself out.
My sister is a cop and when they changed guns the department let her buy her issued Sigma for $100. After a while I talked her into selling it to me for the same amount she bought it for. After the tens of thousands of rounds we have put through it, we haven’t had a single jam. Plus all of her coworkers gave me about 20 extra mags.
I have a SD9VE. It’s not a bad gun, but I sure wouldn’t be using it for competition shooting either. It’s high enough quality that I carry it for self defense, but inexpensive enough that I’m not too heartbroken about it getting a little dirty / scratched, etc… which is important since I open carry often while I am working around the yard and house.
I have an SD9VE. Love it. Use it in competitions. It is accurate as the guys running the fancy expensive overpriced bits of steel and plastic. In fact, I liked it so much I got more of them.
I would like to know why on these case lets say are dismissed, why isn’t the prosecution not liable for court costs of the defense? Everyone who’s every went to court for ANYTHING knows has expensive it is!
Nailed it.
That cannot be right. It was all over the news that TM was a 12 year old looking good kid. I saw his picture repeatedly.
yes, I bet, if President Barrack Hussein Obama were to have a son, he’d look a whole lot like Trayvon!
+1 beat me to it.
Obama: “If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon”
So does this mean his daughters are turning tricks too?
if the president had a son, i do bet he would act like Trevon.
It is a shame obama’s kid has fallen so low. Maybe his “father” taught him to blame others and make excuses instead of taking responsibility for his own actions.
Oh!
Oh, damn!
Congratulations on winning Teh Internetz today.
Damn!
(Totally stealing that line.)
You never know. Obama IS half white….
Come to think of it, so is Zimmerman.
Biggest crock of shit case ever.
f*cking A
If Obama had a hand holding a pistol with no trigger discipline….
Color me surprised.
Or not
Yeah, this is like attacking a victim at a rape trial. Standard defense sleaze tactic Whether or not Martin was a “thug,” Zimmerman targeted him and murdered him. He is not a cause celebre for gun owners or self defense activists: he is a homicidal bigot, and should only be supported by other homicidal bigots.
Zimmerman is one of the best examples of racial grievance politics going.
I thought it was officially known as “mau mauing the flakcatchers.” Sharpton and Jesse teach it every other Fall Semester at Rainbow Univ. Tom Wolfe writes about it brilliantly. I just watch the made-for-TV movie versions. And the TM version is actually more like huge mobs and a president on TV, yelling “the b##ch was looking at him wrong, she deserved it, she shouldn’t have shot him.”
rtempleton … and you know these things HOW, exactly?
Kettle, meet Pot.
You’re wrong. George Z. may be an idiot who should have never left his house, but a murderer he is not.
I do agree that the parties using this as grist for the political mill are both lying though.
I don’t see Repubs using George Zimmerman. And I haven’t seen them using George Zimmerman. Not once.
You guys can accuse of white racism all you’d like. I haven’t seen this. The only racism I’ve seen in this case is black vs everybody else.
You really should carry a sign so that if someone sees you getting your head pounded on the pavement they won’t waste their time saving your sorry azz!
Ah yes, the continuous refrain of racists across the nation – “Being attacked by a black teen who tried to murder you means you attacked him and are a racist”.
Oh thank you for actually *calling* people making presumptive judgements based on skin color “racists”.
(As opposed to the media definition where racist = “having the lighter skin tone”. See also: “white”-Hispanic.)
“Yeah, this is like attacking a victim at a rape trial.”
— I think you mean the bs manipulation attempt by the accuser’s lawyers that certain evidence cannot be introduced by the defense to prove their accused client is innocent because it would “re-victimize” the “victim” which re-configures Western law to assume the accused is guilty until proven innocent.
No one is guilty and no one a victim until the jury has reached a decision. You have been brainwashed by the bigots of the politically-correct Left and the male-hating radical feminists.
Not hard to see who’s the bigot here, rtempleton. By that I mean that usually, the one making the bigot charge is the true bigot. Just sayin.
I know I’ve said this before to other people, and maybe even to you, but I’m gonna say it again:
Wow! How did you get such impressive firsthand knowledge of the events last night? Have you contacted either the investigators (to make sure Zimmerman is convicted) or the defense team (to ensure he is found innocent)? If not, why not? I’m sure they would be very glad to have your input.
The prosecution doesn’t need my help. They have all of the records that show that Zimmerman saw a black teen in a hoodie, called the cops, who told him not to do anything, and then he got out of his car and confronted him.
There was no evidence Martin was doing anything wrong, he didn’t have a weapon on him, so a racist defense is appealing to other racists to try and portray Martin as a “thug.”
It should be a great example of why everyone should own a gun in “safe” neighborhoods: chances are, some juiced up conservative moron is going to try to attack you. If Martin had had a gun himself, he might have stood a chance.
Aaaaaand another person who hasn’t listened to the original, un-altered 911 recording released by the police department.
Keep up the conservative vs. progressive dichotomy thing. It’s working for you. May I ask what you are progressing towards?
Nobody here will defend Zimmerman’s actions that night. To people of the gun, he violated almost every rule when carrying a gun. That being said, Martin was no saint and it’s the job of the defense to paint that picture. All the defense needs to prove is that it was reasonable to believe that Martin attacked Zimmerman, and not the other way around. It all comes down to who escalated the confrontation (key word “escalated”). It wasn’t illegal for Zimmerman to get out of his car and track Martin. It wasn’t illegal for Martin to verbally confront Zimmerman for tracking him. However, once a threat of violence or physical violence occurred, that’s when it became illegal. You claim that Martin didn’t have a weapon on him, but you discount his fists. Once someone is punched, self-defense is invoked and, whether or not the attacker has a weapon, becomes irrelevant.
Trayvon Martin is as much on trial as George Zimmerman. This is a self defense case. A finding of not guilty convicts Martin of aggravated assault and attempted murder just as much as guilty verdict convicts Zimmerman. Excluding evidence of Martin’s violent and criminal behavior is an attempt to prevent the jury from making a rational decision.
I know you have your mind made up despite the evidence but it is up to jury of his peers to make the final determination not you.
“There was no evidence Martin was doing anything wrong…”
How did Zimmerman get those ouchies? Did Martin beat him up after taking a bullet through the heart?
There is no evidence that he is a bigot. If he is, he would be self loathing given his Hispanic mother and African American grand parent.
Not to mention the fact that when a AA girl was murdered a couple years back in his community, GZ was out pounding the streets and passing out flyers trying to get community support to bring the killer to justice, if reports by his family are to be believed. Supposedly he also spent time mentoring/tutoring youth, many non-whites among them, which leads me to believe the media’s attempt at painting him as ‘somone who saw a young black man in a hoodie and decided to kill him’ is even more malicious than it is misguided.
It’s more like blaming the victim (Zimmerman) at a rape trial for asking for it.
You know you already won the trial when they call you a racist…it means they have nothing of substance to defend their position with.
rtempleton is a libtard moron…..don’t listen to him. The little ghetto manchild got angry and attacked Zimmy as he was walking away. Only a shot into the primitive subhuman Skittle chomping gangsta beast saved Zimmy from getting his head crushed into the ground.
Are you always this farking retarded or is today a special occasion, Mr Troll?
Trayvon Martin sure seems like a dirt bag. The liberal media screwed up big time on this story because of their epic bias. I hope the media gets the justice they deserve, Zimmerman gets acquitted, and Obama gets embarrassed yet again.
I’ve withheld comments on many shootings because the facts weren’t in. There are many cases when something “looks bad,” and it is totally legitimate. The Martin / Zimmerman shooting is looking more justified by our “white Hispanic” victim every day. As someone charged with investigationing crime, it is definitely worthwhile to wait before the facts are in prior to rushing into an erroneous conclusion. I thought the initial release of Zimmerman shortly thereafter the shooting showed his innocence, and the subsequent facts have continued to support that opinion.
I’ll also go on record that I’ve not listened to the advice of 911 dispatchers, and I will shoot someone who is trying to bash my head against the sidewalk.
I would have double tapped!
Because Martin’s hand was on the slide as they were struggling for the gun, it didn’t cycle. The expended casing was still in the chamber when the police arrived.
Fun fact the media left out because it made for a less interesting “story”.
Just another reason I carry a revolver.
If a semi won’t cycle when someone’s hand is gripping it tight enough to keep the slide from moving, then a revolver cylinder won’t have room to turn in the same situation. Revolvers do have the advantage that they can’t be forced out of battery by pushing the muzzle against anything, but they too can be rendered useless by an attacker.
I like revolvers, though. I carry a GP100 every day.
@Hasdrubal: True, but much more force is required to keep a cylinder from turning, whereas if so much as a thumb touches against the slide as it moves back it can cause a malfunction in a semi.
In addition, the slide makes up a bigger (and much more easily accessible/grabbed) portion of a semi than a cylinder on a revolver.
I carry a 642 myself. I don’t think a GP100 would carry so nice in a pocket. 😉
I will shoot someone who is trying to bash my head against the sidewalk.
And you’ll get away with it because you’re a cop. The rest of us will go to prison for doing the same damn thing.
Well if you’re a good lawyer, I would hope that you could defend someone who had just had a legitimate DGU. Rebember, the police let Zimmerman out initially until the media “investigation” machine helped discombobulate things.
Do you think Zimmerman is being prosecuted because he wasn’t a cop, or because of media outrage that Martin was black? If a similar case happened with a white attacker and a black shooter, and neither was a cop, do you think that would make a difference?
I believe this is nothing more than racism. It’s just a form of racism that the other side approves. The case now has little to do with either the facts or the proper methods of self defense.
Do you think Zimmerman is being prosecuted because he wasn’t a cop, or because of media outrage that Martin was black? The latter.
If a similar case happened with a white attacker and a black shooter, and neither was a cop, do you think that would make a difference? Yes. The black shooter would have been executed by now.
I’d like repeat that, despite the selective edits by NBC et al, Zimmerman’s recorded response to the 911 dispatcher telling him not to pursue Martin any longer was “Okay” – and he did. He began going the other direction and talking about where he could meet an arriving officer. When then asked what his address was, he started to give it, then stopped and said he didn’t know where the suspicious individual was anymore and thus didn’t want to give it out loud.
He heeded the 911 dispatcher’s advice (whether he had to or not). He was subsequently ambushed by Martin, who could have just kept going when Zimmerman stopped following him.
(And before someone jumps in and tries to change the subject by saying that recording “proves Zimmerman was a racist because he uses a slur in it” – that’s the fake, altered version you can find on youtube. If you actually go to the police website and download the original recording, what he says is “punks”.)
“He heeded the 911 dispatcher’s advice (whether he had or not).”
Exactly. “Whether he had or not” is the issue at the center of this case. His word against…well, nobody’s. We just have to believe he’s telling the truth. Personally, I think there’s reason to doubt that.
Oooooh, subtle edit there. Not like anyone can just look up and see the “to” you removed from that sentence.
Oops, that wasn’t meant to be an edit. I misread the original comment. Mea culpa.
Although I still maintain that whether he actually heeded the dispatcher’s advice is something that only he knows.
I don’t see any evidence whatsoever that Zimmerman’s actions were racially motivated. None.
The entire dog and pony show is being driven by the threat of rioting, justice was kicked down the stairs long ago. This could be happening to any one of us, poor George Zimmerman’s number just came up first.
But in the real end of the story, I am betting that Zimmerman will walk away with a multimillion dollar settlement. Bad for him now, but the way the case is unfolding, he may never need to work again.
Settlement from whom? You are aware of qualified and absolute immunity right?
Even if they do riot, it’ll just be in their own neighborhood, so nothing of importance will be lost. They aren’t the brightest folks out there:
Which one of the marchers were you, matt?
My guess is he wasn’t there. He talks a good game, but he doesn’t strike me as someone who has the courage of his convictions.
When did Toledo become Chicago? The Nazi’s in Skokie happened before I was born. I would have joined the Westboro Baptists when they were in Skokie, but I didnt hear about it until after it was over 🙁
Yep, matt, you would be the Westboro Baptist kind of guy. And you live in Chicago. Good place to be if Zimmerman gets aquitted of all charges.
I respect Matt in a funny sort of way. He has the courage of his warped convictions. That said, My grandfather served under three Kaisers in the “Deutsches Herren” and I am always amused when a descendant of a Pole and Ukie wants to play Nazi.
Really? I’ve always seen him as the desperate-and-obvious sort of attention troll.
Herr Human:
I see you don’t do irony very well.
Oh I got the irony. I’m just being sardonic.
What will Obama do with all that False anger now? How will the media spin this after being so sure about this innocent boy?
They’ll start championing 2A. Martin was clearly just a good exercising his rights.
Street fighting? Meh.
Fighting is the use of physical force. Gunfighting is the use of deadly force. In most cases, deadly force cannot be used to stop physical force. There are exceptions when the victim of the physical force is old or infirm, or when there is a great disparity in size between a large attacker and a smaller victim. There is also an exception when the attacker is well-trained in martial arts, such as Asian styles, MMA or boxing, where the potential for lethality is much higher that would be in a typical fight.
Pictures of Martin smoking dope or fighting are important because he’s been portrayed as Saint Trayvon. It will be easier to portray Martin as the aggressor if he was, you know, aggressive. But that alone won’t free Zimmerman, although it certainly takes murder off the table.
The fact remains that Martin was unarmed. Yes, I know that people have been killed with one punch, but that doesn’t magically turn every punch into deadly force. And the fact that Zimmerman is alive and didn’t even need to go to a hospital shows that deadly force was never applied to him.
Zimmerman’s best chance for acquittal is to show that Martin tried to grab his gun. Now that would be a threat of the imminent use of deadly force. Absent such a showing, I don’t see how Zimmerman can stay out of prison.
I didn’t write the laws, so save your flames for someone who did.
So bashing someone’s head against a curb is not deadly force?
They like to leave that little detail out for some reason.
Seriously. It’s just a question of time. Ralph are you suggesting that GZ should have waited until he was losing consciousness to pull the trigger? How many head impacts against concrete are needed before it becomes deadly force? How do you know when the next one will knock you out cold and whatever follows that will kill you? He was lucky enough that the first one didn’t knock him out cold.
Sorry… but when somebody is on top of you beating you with fists, feet, and/or smashing your head into concrete and saying “you’re gonna die,” it IS deadly force. Absolutely. You’re totally familiar with the FBI murder stats showing that multiple times more people are killed in the U.S. every year with hands & feet than my rifles of any sort. It IS deadly force. This situation made that clearer than most.
Yeah, I would think bashing someone’s head against a curb would be a credible means of inflicting death or serious bodily harm. More generally, waiting to see what happens after all the evidence is in.
While Martin was unarmed, it may or may not change whether lethal force was justified. We know Martin was smashing Zimmerman’s head against the pavement and was on top of him at the time he was shot. This is likely to be found as the use of lethal force by Martin. Zimmerman would likely not know whether his injuries required medical attention; many people who are injured do not feel it immediately due to adrenaline. Furthermore, Martin was the aggressor in the fight and he lost the ability to claim self-defense (Zimmerman’s asking questions and looking for Martin is not initiating a fight). We also do not know what Martin was saying during the fight; he may have been singing “We are the Children” or swearing and screaming death threats. Witnesses may have confirmed such. The police let Zimmerman go; we will see if their reasoning is enough to acquit.
Deadly force was “being” applied to him & just not completed yet. I don’t think he needed to let that happen. Boxer Oscar Bonnavenna was beat to death by a Vegas guard exercising his right to self defense, at the beginning of the fight Oscar was ok at the end he was dead, much like the guy falling from the 20 floor saying “so far so good”, Randy
“And the fact that Zimmerman is alive and didn’t even need to go to a hospital shows that deadly force was never applied to him.”
Right. So if someone fires at me, and misses, and I ventilate the guy, I’m a murderer because I’m alive and didn’t even need to go to the hospital.
No, Jacob. Firing a gun at you IS deadly force, whether you are hit or not.
The whole notion that “physical violence” is not deadly is a movie myth. If you are pinned to the ground and someone is pounding your head against a curb repeatedly, you are fighting for your life. As a shooter, he has to prove that he feared for his life, and if his story is correct, it was a justifiable homicide. the case against Zimmerman will only work if Zimmerman lied about the events of that night.
Ralph, I like your humorous stuff more, I think you’re dead wrong on this one. While Martin might not have been trained in MMA or Muay Thai, any type of boxing experience, even on the street, would have made this guy a dangerous dude. That picture of his head busted open by someone who knew how to fight IMO seems like it would present a reasonable fear of serious injury or death. I don’t have all the facts, but I don’t see any jury of his peers convicting GZ of anything but a lack of situational awareness and a bit of general stupidity. Heck, this is Florida, they even let Casey Anthony walk.
Ralph is very two faced like that. His avatar fits him perfectly.
My avatar is comedy and tragedy. The Zimmerman case is a tragedy, as is your comment.
I know what your avatar is. You’re an actor.
You don’t have to be armed with a weapon to be deadly. Deadly force is allowed if you fear deadly harm. Yeah I suppose Zim could have let him pound his head on the concrete until he reached coma stage and then shot him. You would have to be a doctor to know when that would occur.
George made a call about how much damage Trayvon Martin was going to do and thus shot him for he feared for his life. That is legally defensible.
There is no legal requirement in Florida, or anywhere else I know of, that requires deadly force be “applied to” you before you can use deadly force to defend yourself.
The standard in Florida (and most everywhere else) is that you can use deadly force if you **reasonably** believe it is necessary to prevent your assailant from killing you or causing you great bodily harm. Being repeatedly punched in the face while on the ground seems to pretty clearly qualify, to me.
The Florida law reference is 776.012, “Use of Force in Defense of Person.”
THIS is the answer. Reasonable belief the force is necessary to “prevent death or great bodily harm.”
REASONABLE belief.
I’ve had plenty of fistfights. I never had the reasonable thought that I was in danger of death. And since I’m not dead, I’m guessing that I was right.
In how many of them were you pinned to the ground with your opponent bashing your head into the concrete?
Fighting is plenty deadly Chicago’s Mayor Daley’s nephew killed a guy of a similar size with a single sucker punch.
Deadly force doesn’t always kill. If you wait to find out it just might be too late.
I told you, I didn’t write the laws. In most cases, you can’t use deadly force to resist physical force. If you don’t like the law, change it, but don’t bust my [email protected] about it.
Zimmerman had cuts on his head. A couple of superficial cuts proves nothing. If you even nick your scalp, it bleeds like a MF. He didn’t even need to go to hospital for treatment. In fact, he declined treatment. He was fine. Kinda detracts from his argument that he was facing imminent death, doesn’t it?
Martin was unarmed. No knife, no stick, no stone, no nothing. The use of fists is not deadly force. If it was, everyone would have to right to shoot anyone who started a fight with them. That’s not the way it works.
Zimmerman was unemployed, and probably lacked health coverage. This may have affected his decisions regarding seeking medical treatment.
Ralph,
Read the Florida laws. I have and they are not what you are saying they are. Belief that one is in danger of “great bodily harm” is all it takes. Deadly force is then authorized.
What great bodily harm? He got beat in a fight with an unarmed man.
I’ve declined medical attention over the years for cracked ribs, multiple vehicle collisions (car vs. bicycle, car vs. motorcycle, car vs. just me without the bicycle or motorcycle), hypothermia, mild, moderate, and severe concussions, and a few other things I don’t want to get into here.
All that means is I was stupid, because some of them could have killed me. Some of them turned out to be worse than I thought later, though, because the adrenaline sort of made me think I was fine when I really wasn’t. Like I said, stupid.
Zimmerman may have turned down medical aid because he was stupid, or macho. Or maybe he just wasn’t all that hurt.
“multiple vehicle collisions (car vs. bicycle, car vs. motorcycle, car vs. just me without the bicycle or motorcycle)”
O.o – Dude, you need to find that magnet and have it removed.
If he had a stone in his hand and was hitting GZ on head that would be a weapon right? Slamming GZ’S head on the sidewalk (stone) is the same thing, a weapon!!!!!
Ralph, this is one of the most cogent comments about this case that I’ve yet seen on TTAG.
I certainly wouldn’t be upset of Zimmerman beat the rap, though I wouldn’t be surprised if he doesn’t.
Ralph, If the manchild was on top of Zimmy and smashing his skull into the ground, a single shot to the chest to remove the gangsta maniac seems VERY warranted.
If Obama had a son he would be like Trayvon…wow, a true statement from Obama.
I lived in San Francisco during the Rodney King riots. Someone threw a big empty bottle of Colt45 beer through our front window during one of the rioting nights and then took-off. One of my house-mates had a shotgun and I had an older Gerber MKII 8-inch dagger. Talk about feeling unarmed.
A couple months ago, I read that the owners of the home owner’s association where the shooting occurred settled out of court with Trayvon’s parents for $1,000,000. They got their investment back with far more profit than they deserved.
Aharon: At the time of the King riots, I was scheduled to fly into LAX, from the East Coast, to attend a networking conference. I tried to get out of it but my employer, a major California Thrift, insisted on my presense. They didn’t let me off the hook until I informed them that I would be bringing my .12 gauge S&W riot shotgun along for the trip. The conference was cancelled that evening and rescheduled for early autumn. When I finally arrived, there was still widespread damage including bullet holes in buildings between Westwood and the Airport.
Do you carry your .12 gauge along with your .9 mm?
.12 gauge would be giant: 3.39 caliber or 86mm. Quite the opposite end of the spectrum from .9mm.
Glad you didn’t have to go to LAX since it was worse there than most places. Good stand with your employer. It seems like they were ok with risking your life though grew timid when faced with the possibility they might be condemned in the media if their employee was reported shooting up the City of Vermin err I mean Angels.
My cousin’s third (or forth?) husband went to go pick her up at LAX armed with a lowly bat. I knew guys in the California National Guard who were mobilized after the fifth or sixth day of rioting. They said it was like a 3rd world country war zone.
I certainly hope insurance covered it, otherwise that is one hell of a special assessment for the home owners to pay.
It was the insurance company that made the payment. I wonder if the place was self-insured.
No idea.
Say it aint so, little baby trayvon who was gunned down as he was being pushed down the street in a carriage? This comes as quite a shock, well… not really. Get your AR’s here, get your AR’s here(in FL) your going to f’n need em, Randy
Remember what worked before.
A shot from an ethnic Korean neighborhood during the Rodney King riots: http://www.humanevents.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/58852252.jpg
Make contact with your neighbors and stand peacefully (but visibly) in guard of your homes and loved ones.
I would advise the law abiding residents of Sanford and surrounding areas, if they haven’t already, to tool up.
If only they could find ammo…
birdshot works in a pinch.
True. And you can find plenty of it.
Funny. The other day I was thinking of buying a shotgun because you can find plenty of ammo. I think you tipped me over the edge. I am going shopping.
Check out cut shotgun shells on youtube.
Poor-man’s frangable slugs but they tend to gunk up your barrel with the plastic. (works in a pinch)
Thru out the gun and ammo draught I have been able to find shotguns and shotgun shells for sale. Stick with 12 and 20 ga. and you have just about all bases covered.
Birdshot can be effective if used properly. Like if the rioter has a molotov cocktail in hand aim for the cocktail.
Birdshot is available in pretty much any gun store. On occasion they will also have slugs and 00 buck. You can also make wax slugs at home. http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2011/07/09/wax-shotgun-slugs/
I have made these and they work almost as good as rifled slugs at 1/5 the cost. I haven’t noticed any gunk in my barrel and I have shot hundreds of these. Warning: I believe if your barrel uses choke tubes they advise against using wax slugs.
Bob2, I just recently bought a Mossberg Maverick 88 on sale at big 5. Total out the door was 242 bucks. Cheap effective house gun with 7+1 in 12 ga. It’s hard to beat a package like this at this price.
The son Barry O never had….
The threat of rioting should not be a factor with respect to the disposition of this case. If Zimmerman is found innnocent then let law enfocement deal with those low-lifers who are looking for any and every excuse to riot.
How else are they going to get that nice flat screen they see in the window? Your indignation is much more justified as you carrying out your kulla tv, Randy
Shouldn’t be, but might be.
So, I take it that Trayvon Martin was not legally in posession of that firearm, since he wasn’t old enough to own it under Florida law. So – where did he get it?
Did he steal it himself? Did he purchase a stolen gun, and if so, who sold a stolen gun to a known minor?
Did he take it from his parents, and if so, where’s the usual liberal outrage that a gun was made available to an unsupervised minor?
Pretty important questions, but by and large, the media has forgotten about this case – especially now that it appears more than ever that Martin was far from the little angel that he was portrayed as by the media.
Doesn’t make for an entertaining “story” anymore. Reporters are never interested in the truth, they want a “story”.
Turns out the little [email protected] was nothing more than a little [email protected], BIG SHOCKER!
Trayvon was hunted down like a rabid dog! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmg1aY6_AJI
Oh, and he could have been B.O.’s son, forgot that one.
lmao, and you conservative gutter trash are calling *me* a bigot
Just because someone else is an asshole doesn’t make you less of one. That’s not how it works.
I like it Matt in FL
+ 1
You could log onto TTAK, The Truth About Kumbaya.
Bigot? No, just a douche. And pure comedy gold every single time you post here. Never stop.
Yes, and the places rioting may (will?) occur are the very places where legitimately-owned weapons are far and few between. Talk about irony.
Blowing smoke? TEENAGE SMOKING?! A potted marijuana plant… OH NO!
I love TTAG and what you guys usually write, but that still hardly qualifies as making Trayvon a hardcore “thug.” I’m sure all of us remember the kids who smoked in high school, who’d cross the street to light up a cigarette (or something else). Smoking weed doesn’t make you an aggressive maniac, or dangerous thug. Abuse of weed is pretty widespread among kids these days… even in the suburbs.
I’m more interested in the handgun pictures. Did Martin possess an illegal handgun? Was it stolen or given to him by his family?
That piece of evidence might not go as well as the defense wants. If Martin was the predator they’re painting him to be, why didn’t he rob Zimmerman with a gun instead of engaging in fisticuffs? No gun was found on Martin, and GZ still looks like a guy who shot an unarmed teenager, thug, punk or not.
Are you interested in the school records that show Martin was caught in the building after hours with a bunch of assorted jewelry he couldn’t provide an explanation for?
Okay. That’s great. Was he committing a crime when Zimmerman confronted him? If yes, Zimmerman MIGHT have a case. Even still, stand your ground doesn’t give you the right to get out of your car and confront someone.
First, how do you know Zimmerman confronted him? Were you there?
Second, following someone to keep them in sight so you can tell the cops where they are != confronting them.
Third, he’s not using a Stand Your Ground defense, dumbass. Self-defense, yes, but not Stand Your Ground. They are not the same thing.
Whee! Facts are fun.
Zimmerman never confronted Martin.
When Zimmerman was told not to continue observing Martin, he stopped and went the other way. Zimmerman’s police statement, tracing of movements in the neighborhood, and the actual 911 recording released by the police all support that.
Martin confronted Zimmerman, not the other way around. By your own argument, Martin could have kept going to his father’s house when he saw the older man go the other way. He never had the right to stalk and ambush Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground law or not.
But then, you’d have to actually spend effort to go and listen to the recorded evidence on your own; so expecting what really happened to penetrate your bubble of self-righteousness is asking a bit much, hunh?
Fail again, Mr Templton.
rtempleton, what is ‘confront’ you libtard clown? So the neighborhood watchman was a little tenacious in doing his job….big deal. So your for Barney Fife getting his head smashed in for asking questions?
Say, what you got against Hispanics anyway (I can play your dirty libtard games as well)?
Zimmerman confronted him? really? You sure about that genius?
I don’t see how past instances of theft would be relevant to this case, which revolves around the question of whether Zimmerman reasonably believed that deadly force was necessary to end an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. If your head is being beaten into the ground, I would say that you are reasonable to fear for your life.
A couple of superficial cuts and no concussion? C’mon, man. I’ve been hurt worse in some of the fights I won.
It goes to frame of mind, or past actions. It is also posed he assaulted a bus driver earlier that year. If a dog bit once, he is likely to bite again. If this guy was soliciting for drugs, displaying illegal firearms, assaulting bus drivers, involved in unsanctioned scapper fights, and burglarizing homes wouldn’t that taint his actions in further situations when confronted by an off duty block captain who found a stranger in the gated neighborhood acting strangely. There is also good evidence this guy just scored some blunts and maryjane to go with his codeine coctail he planned to get high at his dad’s GF’s house. It is not out of the question the kid wasn’t in the best decision ability after smoking one and jettisoning the other. Drugs don’t make the best decision partners.
Ralph, again….the guetto animal was on top of Zimmy and smashing his head on the ground.
Bang, game over. What is this nonsense regarding a fight?
One more bash and your out like a light….to never awaken.
Get on the ball, man.
The death penalty doesn’t apply to possession of jewelry. Just because Martin was a punk and maybe a thief doesn’t empower Zimmerman to shoot and kill him.
Ralph:
Are you just having fun playing lawyer today?
Nah. I’m retired. And when I wasn’t, I never played at it.
As of today, he is officially Ralph-the-two-fisted-lawyer here. A legal advocate who has taken cinder-blocks to the face and still won the fight with his right-cross examination. The courtroom-brawler who must keep both hands in his pockets during deposition lest he violate a witness’ protection from Double Jeopardy! =D
(Hell, I’d watch that show.)
Imhuman Being, I’m beginning to suspect that you’re not all there.
Ah c’mon, that was great material =D.
I don’t expect to see any rioting in my area no matter which way this trial goes, but if there is rioting in my area I’ll be ready. Korean shop owner style.
The level of racism and them-vs-us bigotry in the comments today is disheartening. “They’re gonna riot so they can come steal our flat-screen tee-vees!!!1!!1!”… really?
It doesn’t help that the headline and text were clearly intended to be as inflammatory as possible. Frankly, I was surprised to see this posted under RF’s byline and not Dan Z’s.
Yeah, it’s pretty awesome to see the low-level racism creep into people’s comments in threads like this. I don’t know if they think they’re being so subtle as to hide it, or if they just don’t care, but it does tell you who people really are, in the darkest corners of their minds.
As far as the byline is concerned, I’ve always found it to be the other way around.
+1
How is it racist to acknowledge the fact that this punk was a dirtbag and the world is undoubtedly a better place now that he’s six feet under? Likewise, stereotyping is a natural human thought process -not “deeply concealed racism.” We all know which socioeconomic group has a tendency to explode in riots and violence whenever the media whip them into a frenzy, and we know that this violence typically includes looting and thievery. It is not racist to call a spade a spade.
The observations you bring up may be arguable, but they’re not scoring on the real target. It’s not socioeconomic, it’s cultural. While it is true that poor black Americans (the “which socioeconomic group” you are so delicately referring to) are statistically more likely to commit violence or “explode in riots” – that is neither because they are poor nor because they are black. Your menace is an ideology, not a tax bracket and a color.
Whenever you tell *any* body of people: “Some ‘Other’ is responsible for your actions and you need take no responsibility for yourself”, and convince them to believe it, what you get is decay, business failure, and violence. Communities don’t live in dread of what, say, a poor Filipino or poor Lithuanian neighborhood might do. So poverty isn’t inextricably linked to it. I don’t have to put up a pedantic list of successful, good-neighborly black people as a counter example either; they get pilloried in the news by their political opponents often enough. So it’s additionally not something intrinsic to black-heredity. Conversely, I don’t think anyone will have to ponder very hard to come up with similarly violent, commensurately poor, self-selecting groups which are *not* black – but which do share the same “success and failure is from the Other” ideation.
The danger is the idea which says: “if I fail, that is not my fault; if I succeed, that is not of my making.” That belief *creates* poverty. You can send as much money as you want to such people and all you’re doing is pumping blood into a corpse. That crede *creates* violence. If you have no responsibility for your actions, and all your dissatisfactions are due to some ‘Other’, then committing violence against someone else is just permissible catharsis.
Why this is important (and why I’m so seriously belaboring a point here) is because the only way that gets better is if you correctly, accurately, target and attack the idea. Any other approach isn’t going to help. Culture, the root assumptions a society is founded upon, matters.
You need to counter-argue that pathological core belief when you find it – and shame anyone who actively promotes it.
/Soapbox
Really? I see a lot more people discussing the particulars of the case and what constitutes deadly force.
Let’s not get too confused. The ‘particulars’ of the case have nothing to do with Trayvon’s past behavior, whether that’s drug use, illegal gun possession, or “street fighting.” The only facts (about Martin) that matter in this case are the ones that were immediately available to Zimmerman that night. That is the law.
The particulars of this case are of a piece with a history of criminal behavior (illegal firearms possession, assault, theft, threats of violence against others – several of which caused the serial suspensions from school that put him in that neighborhood on the night in question).
The pertinent facts about Martin available to Zimmerman were that he was straddling him and repeatedly slamming his head into the concrete like an egg. (As witnessed by Zimmerman’s statement, released witness statements, the released police report indicating Zimmerman’s back had grass sticking to it when they arrived, and the wounds photographed above. Seriously, the police put all this out there to calm things down – why did no one read them??) Zimmerman just happened to interrupt Martin in the final moments of his graduation from “delinquent-poseur” to “murdering-thug”.
The real truth is that we will never know the real truth. People will see what they want to through their own lens.
The people who say this happened or that happened are FOS unless they were there and saw the events. White racists will blame it on Martin. Black racists will blame it on Zimmerman.
The only thing we know for sure is that Martin was unarmed. Whether you like it or not, that’s a big deal. If Martin had anything in his hands besides Skittles, Zimmerman would be walking free right now.
HB, I’m not sure whether you’re trying to reinforce my opinion or not. On the one hand you’re absolutely correct that (at least some of) the facts of the case are that “…he was straddling him and repeatedly slamming his head into the concrete like an egg.” However, the first paragraph of your comment, referring to Martin’s past, is irrelevant to any legal arguments.
Zimmerman didn’t know anything about Martin’s history, and therefore could not use that information to infer Martin’s intentions in the moment. Therefore, if his defense is self-defense, the only thing that matters in this case is what transpired on that particular evening, not what happened in Martin’s past.
MikeM, there have been many attempts to discount the physical evidence and witness statements of Martin’s assault by saying he was too good and innocent a kid to have done something like that (aka “The Skittles Defense”). Not only does that not hold water as a refutation, the opposite pattern of behavior holds true. See also: Cyrano’s comment a little above.
Ralph, the case will be decided based on evidence of the night in question. All of which, save for the redacted names of the witnesses who gave statements and the later-published autopsy report, were previously released by the police before Zimmermans re-arrest in the attempt to calm the situation down. The same evidence that caused the police to release Zimmerman in the first place. Barring the prosecution producing a magic rabbit, the world already knows what is going to be hashed over in the court room.
Now, I know you didn’t just call me a “white racist” for presenting the case as I have in this thread. But that’s much looser phrasing than is your usual. I chalk it up to frustration from your being a lone voice arguing that threat of bodily harm was not evident against a multitude, but you can aim better than that.
I know you didn’t just call me a “white racist”
No, I did not. You know my writing well enough to be sure that if my comment was addressed to you personally, you wouldn’t have to ask.
Sorry, but seeing how that’s been the traditional reaction of the black community in the US to anything they perceive as “negative” news, how is that racist? It was only about a decade ago that my city saw major rioting by blacks after a black guy with 14 different warrants for his arrest ended up getting shot while running from the police.
Tote, I’m a little confused here. You hate and mistrust the police. You hate and mistrust the authority of the Government. But when the black community acts on their hate and distrust of these authority figures you make critical remarks against the black community?
Correct me if I’m wrong here. But at various times on TTAG haven’t you come down on the side of rebellion, anarchy and civil war? Seems kind of counter to your previous statements to condemn the black community for lashing out at the authority.
You’ll feel different after they steal your laptop and you can’t read our comments anymore.
I’ve had property crimes committed against me make the national news in the last 12 months. Top that. 🙂
Because the libtards play the race card so monstrously……all must be destroyed.
Maybe, and stay with me for a second here, we could wait for the trial and see all the facts come out before we make judgements one way or the other?
I wonder if any one, any where would actually give a crap if Martin had been a white cracker, especially this rtempleton character. Seems no logic or reason exists for she/he still presumes no matter what the circumstances the lighter skinned bastard is at fault for daring to confront a darker skinned someone at all. In black culture, the darker your skin the higher your cultural superiority. So the bigotry is reversed, it’s not about racism at all. Black is black and that’s all there is. But, News flash, you start beating someone on concrete…if they got anything your gonna get hurt or killed.
I’m about 10 minutes from downtown Sanford. I took the class to get my CCW there. Should be fun watching all those MSM asshats backtracking on their initial condemnations of Zimmerman. Oh, wait, they won’t backtrack. They’ll just ignore the news.
There won’t be wide spread rioting in Florida when (not if) Zimmerman is acquitted. This isn’t LA or Chicago. I didn’t say “No” rioting, just nothing serious. Floridians are very well armed. We have more comcealed carry permits issued here than there are soldiers in the US Army…..just in FL. Sit and contemplate that momentarily. How many people in LA had a handgun during the riots? Almost no one. Also, this is the “Deep South” and attitudes are different. At the first sign of rioting in nice neighborhoods law abiding citizens would go on the offensive. It would be very ugly. Every pizza delivery guy has a pistol under their shirt. Our police are VERY no-nonsense. Crime has plummeted since the 1990’s because everyone is packing. I don’t write this to anger blacks……I write this to save them. Burn Illonois to cinders but try that here and you will suffer terribly.
Any riot that starts in this neighborhood will instantly come to a screaming halt. There is a shooting bench and backstop in almost every back yard.
What is wrong with you people? Trayvon may have been a POS kid, but he was just that a kid. Zimmerman became the aggressor when he set foot outside of his car. Anything that happened after does not matter. He is a guilty coward, he never would of gotten out of his car if he had not been carrying. If he gets off this will only serve to hinder our rights further.
Getting out of a car does not make you an aggressor. Following someone, especially at a great enough distance that you lose sight of them twice within five minutes, does not make you an aggressor.
And you don’t know what you’re talking about re: getting out of the car carrying or not. You can’t speak to his state of mind.
And you know everything about Trayvon? Following someone is harassing in my book. If someone is stalking you are you just going to let them follow you all the way to your house? Why because you have nothing to hide? Zimmerman was in over his head plain and simple. He had not sense nor situational awareness. Let him fry.
Idiot
GZ had no situational awareness?!? And TM did, by walking through a neighborhood not his own, late at night, dressed in a manner most would consider suspicious at that time of day, moving furtively and trespassing through yards? As what, his shortcut?!? Step back and think about that for a moment. It’s a wonder TM wasn’t confronted by one of the homeowners he was trespassing against that night. (The reasons why you would assert he was trespassing are not relevant to my facts above, and his state of mind was not one of fear, else TM would’ve called 911 or approach one of the homes for help.)
“He had not sense or situational awareness.”
…I don’t think that means what you think it means.
Zimmerman getting out of his car may make him stupid, but in no way does it make him the aggressor. Nobody is an aggressor unless they actually do something, you know, aggressive.
I got out of a car today, but I was really nice about it.
Prove it. In Obummer’s Amerikkka, a person is guilty until proven innocent unless you can pass for Obummer’s son.
If you roam around here in the middle of the night and no one recognizes you, you will be watched.
Napoleon. You sure wont be confused with Napoleon. The guetto manchild was hardly a kid. He had no right to try to smash the skull of the neighborhood watchman (Barney Fife) into the ground because he was being followed (maybe) a little closely.
Does not matter?
You will never have over a million dollars like I do, being as brainless as you are.
People will guns are cowards? More like smart. Sure set the Skittles chomping gangsta straight. Heh heh heh.
Miami is gonna look like a war zone after the riots that will certainly happen after the trial.
Let them riot, they’re looking for an excuse anyway.
Probably was the Dirtbag-in-Chief’s son, if only Obama hadn’t tossed his ass in the dumpster for someone else since he couldn’t handle the responsibility.
How many whacks on the concrete to crack GZ’s head? 1,2,3… The world may never know.
Let’s ask Mr Owl…
If Mr. Zimmerman had simply allowed Mr. Martin to kill him, then we’d have PROOF that it was a deadly threat.
This isn’t that hard, people.
On the day Bill Clinton was impeached they rained down a massive number of cruise missiles on Baghdad. On the day Zimmerman is found innocent and Martin declared the aggressor Obama will sink a North Korean destroyer.
Can’t resist….
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sxODBppps18
Oh my
Hey Pat, shouldn’t you get back to plotting to shoot a showing of a superhero movie or killing kids at a kindergarten u coward. Michelle Obama 2016 punk!