I saw this comment on the ammunition review of 300 AAC Blackout I posted a while back:
Muzzle energy is a clumsy indicator of killing ability. I’ve hunted with my Blackout a few times now and it just doesn’t kill as quickly as a 223. We’ve gone back to using 223 for its superior temporary wound cavities that high speed ballistic tips produce. The slower crush-trail left by 300Blackout is more akin to a handgun round. It’s a great little sub-sonic fun-gun though. For serious stuff, stick to the .223.
And frankly, I think the problem is with your ammo selection and not the caliber itself. Here’s why.
Subsonic 300 BLK ammo is roughly comparable to a 45 ACP round. No, seriously — go look it up. Both calibers fire a 200 grain slug at roundabout 1,000 feet per second. So its not surprising that subsonic 300 BLK would mimic a handgun instead of a rifle. Which is exactly why its not meant for hunting larger game.
I’ve seen more than one person make the mistake of thinking that because the ammo has a high weight (220 grains for subsonic compared to the normal 125 or 115 grains for supersonic) and open tip that its designed to do the most damage and bring down animals, and that’s just not true. Subsonic is heavier to give enough pressure to the gas system to cycle the action, the weight being secondary to the speed. And while they may appear to have an open or “hollow point” tip, in reality that’s a byproduct of the manufacturing process and not a design element.
For hunting, you want to go with one of the lighter and faster loads. PNW Arms (for example) has a specifically designed hunting load that have ballistic tips designed to expand upon impact and zips along right around the same velocity of Remington’s “Managed Recoil” .308 Winchester rounds that have been massively popular for deer hunting in Virginia and other places. In other words, their ammo has more or less the same properties of one of the most popular hunting loads.
Subsonic ammo is great for some hunting, particularly close range varmints like nutria. But when you’re hunting larger animals, use the faster stuff. It might not be as quiet, but it gets the job done better.
In short, if you’re thinking about hunting with 300 AAC Blackout remember to grab the faster stuff. That’s not to say that subsonic bullets can’t bring down animals — in fact, they have killed many — but the larger wound channel left by the supersonic rounds makes for a more ethical kill. Your targets will thank you.
Was that a disappointed sigh or a relieved sigh?
This sort of thing has been hashed out in gun circles so very long ago… it is only because people are trying to achieve big game hunting rifle ballistics out of a .223 cartridge case that this is even being discussed.
If people want to hunt with an AR-looking rifle, get a .308 AR, chamber the thing in .308, 7mm-08, .358 Winchester or… better yet, a .338 Federal. Now you’ve got a credible big-game rifle with (and this is the important point) a real selection of big-game bullets.
I wholeheartedly agree with your summation of trying to make the .223 a big game cartridge.
Although if a fella already has an AR-15 or doesn’t want/can’t afford the AR-10 platform the 6.5 Grendel and .30 AR wouldn’t be bad either.
In the last 3 years i have built several ar15s in 300 blackout. Ive used subs on rabbits and squirrels. Even a coyote has fallen to a sub. It is the type of ammo you use. I use 110gr barnes tac-tx for deer,antelope and elk within 200 yards. It is more then enough power, you just need to range your target and use the appropriate ammo for the job
Yup. Anyone expect any different outcome when someone uses the wrong tool for a job? Didn’t think so…
So, basically short barrel 300 blackout subsonic as a PDW is equal to a 45acp handgun. I think I’d opt for the 45acp. Supersonic I’ll just stick with 5.56. Thanks for the write-up I can cross this caliber off the list.
Excellent! Leaves more for the rest of us!
Except its a “.45” that make make consistently reliable minute-of-man hits out to 300m.
That also has larger magazines. Standardized weapon system (lack of better term). Its an AR15 through and through except the barrel. It can be house as small as a 6inch barrel ar pistol that can shoot super or subsonics, so supressed 45 acp out to 300 in a stable platform and also rock 125 SST for hunting most medium game. I would not go big game with it. Its down fall is expense.
Neck it down to 7mm. Worked for the 30-06 and .308.
Is the faster stuff a lot better or just marginally better?
I don’t care that the AR doesn’t look like a traditional hunting rifle but I really question that it’s the right tool for the job given that you can buy a cheap bolt action in much more powerful calibers than at least this stuff that we’re talking about.
I just deer hunt and haven’t felt the need for a semi-auto. What scenario makes you want one? Hog hunting? If so, are you dispatching many hogs at once?
Supersonic is close to .30-30 with a light bullet, or 7.62×39 (though it tends to push heavier 150+ gr bullets faster than .300 BLK). i.e. it’s plenty for deer and such.
.30-30 has an edge with heavier ~170gr bullets because of its case capacity.
I think the use case is someone who already has an AR-15 and wants to use it hunting as well instead of buying a completely new rifle. Especially if I already have the lower set up the way I like it.
As for hog hunting, I take it you’ve never seen the herds that roam around down here. I fired as fast as I could at a herd not long ago with a bolt action and only got off two rounds before the other 10 ran over the hill.
No, I know nothing about hog hunting. I have some interest because I well, like bacon.
But why multiple targets? Do you like bacon that much more than me that you want to drop multiple pigs? If not, then why can’t you drop your chosen oinker with one shot?
We’re not talking about hunting with hogs so much as we are genocide. They’re an invasive species that is causing a ton of damage and need to be eradicated.
The fact that they’re delicious just makes it that much easier.
Great name for a band.
September 23, 2012 at 22:03
No, I know nothing about hog hunting. I have some interest because I well, like bacon.
But why multiple targets? Do you like bacon that much more than me that you want to drop multiple pigs? If not, then why can’t you drop your chosen oinker with one shot?
Many hogs will actually charge you… and it isn’t fun. I have my Ridgeback by my side when I go… not out flushing hogs for this reason.
Why can’t you do this? Why can’t you do that?
Well, along those same lines…why can’t you do single shots out of a semi? I can pull the trigger once and have one bullet come out of an AR-15…so what’s the problem? I want to target shoot with a semi…so what’s the point in going out and buying a completely different gun for pig hunting when the AR works great and is something I can become super proficient while using for targets? I shoot one time…but why do I need to only have the ability to shoot one time? Isn’t it ok to be prepared for one charging you? What’s wrong with wanting a gun that’s more versatile than a bolt action and can carry all sorts of different capacities with a mag swap and even calibers with an upper swap rather than buying 4 or 5 bolt actions? And where did you get the impression that bolts are always cheaper? I built my fairly decent quality AR for $600…the only bolt I have that matches its accuracy and costs less than that is a Ruger American…and that gun, as a bolt action, is ironically less reliable than my semi-auto AR (you gotta give up something when get sub MOA accuracy for $300 like in the American). And on top of that, my AR is modular and can have barrel replacements to make it last practically forever, is lighter than a lot of bolts that I own. My AR is the best value per money spent of any gun I own by far, including my bolt actions. So why wouldn’t I own one? …and if I own one, why wouldn’t I hunt with it? You keep asking why I need it. Why would I need to not have it? It’s simply the best choice for the money for an all around gun fitting a gazillion uses by far. I’d have to have 4 or 5 guns to fill all the same “roles” that my AR fills, and half the time I’m doing something that would benefit from 2 or more of those “roles” at once, and would have to choose which gun to leave at home if I went the “4 or 5 guns” route…whereas with the AR I just strap it on and have it all covered. There is no better value in the gun world than AR pattern rifles. With one rifle and maybe 2 uppers for it I could probably have more roles properly covered than many people can cover with an entire safe of 10+ guns.
Feral hogs are a real problem for farmers and ranchers as well as rural land owners across the nation. All the lower 48 states are having serious problems with the out of control breeding habits of these animals and that is why there are no bag limits on them, and in most states no limited season on feral hog hunting. Hunters are encouraged to take multiple animals because of the exploding population. The day is coming when the hog population will make its presence known in suburban areas if it is not brought under control. The good thing is the meat from hog hunts can be donated to feed the poor and homeless in our country, so none of it is wasted.
True conservation of wildlife resources means managing wild populations, and every acre of land can only sustain a given level of animal population – including domesticated livestock. This depends on the available food and water on that acre, and the presence of natural predators. Since the westward expansion of the USA in the 1800’s, as people moved across the country we killed off the wolves and coyotes creating a situation that caused an imbalance in nature. When that happens, the species the predators hunted populations soared and that lack of control of numbers of animals creates problems that we should intervene in by way of hunting to restore the natural balance between predator and prey. We removed the predators, so we must become the predators to restore and maintain the balance or equilibrium of animals that can be sustained by the land they occupy. To fail this population management role promotes stunted growth and disease succeptibility as in the case of chronic wasting disease in deer populations where the deer are allowed to out breed the land’s ability to support their numbers.
So, what you may think is excessive or wasteful and needless killing is really doing our duty to correct a situation that people of 200 years ago created in their ignorance of the way nature works to keep the delicate balance of herds and resources at levels that keep the land and the animals strong and healthy.
Maybe the tried and true 30.06 is best here.
You could always just switch to a 6.8 SPC II load and get more velocity and energy than anything a 300 AAC could muster.
I’ve actually got an Ask Foghorn about that scheduled for tomorrow.
And it basically says the same thing — 6.8 SPC performs better than 300 BLK.
This ^^^ is relevant to my interests!
Why bother with wimpy 6.8 spc when there’s 308 winchester?
The “whimpy” 6.8 puts down large Texas boar without a problem. Not a 308, but fits a MUCH lighter AR15 lower.
What about hunting with a .510 Whisper? :p
People really need to understand the use of each caliber and corresponding rifle. The 300BLK serves a particular purpose: a .30caliber solution that works with your standard AR15 save the barrel. Ideal use is for suppressed work in a SBR platform.
Of course it can be used for hunting and other sporting purposes. It is not a 5.56, .308, 6.8, or 30-06. People keep comparing and putting down this excellent caliber without really understanding it. Use it properly and it will serve you well.
On a side note, someone mentioned going with the 45ACP over the 300BLK. You do know you have 30-60rds of 300BLK available vs maybe 9-13rds or so in a 45. Hmm… easy choice there.
Two words that destroy your side note…. TOMMY GUN!
Have you ever actually held or fired a Thompson? They are like 3 times heavier than an AR platform.
“And while they may appear to have an open or “hollow point” tip, in reality that’s a byproduct of the manufacturing process and not a design element.”
Don’t I recall the army or marines specifically designing a bullet like this to legally skirt the “thou shalt not use hollowpoints” rule?
Mk318 MOD 0 or Mk 262 Mod 0/1. And it’s true. It’s an open tip match (OTM) bullet design that has a copper base so the core has to be poured through the tip. The open tip also helps it defeat barriers with less deflection.
And both are pretty dang cool 5.56 rounds.
poured in to a jacket? I’ve never heard of such a thing. You sure they aren’t swaged?
Wow, yeah. For some reason my brain said squeezed (or swaged) and my fingers went with poured. You are correct, molten lead is not used.
They’ll be swaged.
You could do it yourself, actually. Noodle around for “Corbin Swaging Presses” or “Corbin Bullet Press.” They’ve been swaging open tip jackets over lead cores for a long, long time.
For folks who shoot a lot, it’s the next step after reloading on how to bring down your reloading costs.
That rule no longer exists, the Military can use Hollow points, the replacement for the M9 is a SIG320 well suited for that type ammo, 300BO as well as a number of other calibers are being tested as a potential replacement for the 5.56.
The 5.56 will not penetrate a mud wall while a 7.62X39 fired by an AK will. So naturally we need a larger bullet.
probably back to the 7.62X51 (308 Cal.) since it is a NATO standard .The Army would not be testing AMMO that can’t penetrate the walls of a dried mud hut.
I’m the one that mentioned to go with 45acp. I definetely see the use for the cartridge. Only as a PDW my thinking being close quarters and not needing either a SBR tax stamp or suppressor tax stamp. For longer range a heavy 75 grain 5.56 would be my choice. The cartridge fills a niche. I just can’t have it all and other cartriges suit my needs better.
You can shoot a 16″ barrel 300 AAC without having to worry about SBR issues. Even if you can’t legally shoot a silencer, or are on a ginormous waiting list, the 300 AAC is a really cool caliber. The subsonic rounds will still give you some decent noise reduction even without a silencer.
I had a long conversation with several AR aficionados this weekend about it. I already have a 5.56, 6.8, and .50. Now, I’m wanting a 300. It’s really a money saving measure because I can use still use my 5.56 Pmags. I give Nick a hard time about the caliber, but its partially because I’m really starting to want one.
Its a money saving measure to buy another gun- or at least another upper for another caliber, and then get to pay for that new caliber too. Yeah, definitely a money saving measure. ;-). /sarc
For me think I’ll stay with 7.62×39.
Only the barrel is different. Everything else is standard AR15 and will work with any other 5.56 you have. Even spent 5.56 brass can be converted for ammunition and the bullets are .308s.
It just struck me as funny, that term he used. Anyway I’m a confirmed ak fanatic. Ain’t my place if someone wants another gun.
I have to ask why someone would hunt “big” game with a 223. In Virginia, as well as most other states, it will get you an interview with a judge. 223 is for hogs, coyotes, weasels and rabid beavers and maybe small antelope. 223 is crappy round anyway. I use 243 hypervelocity rounds (3950 fps) for varmint. It has 50% more muzzle energy than 223.
Comparing a 300 blackout subsonic to a .45ACP is like comparing a 1lb rock to a 1lb spear. The BC or ballistic coefficient (abiltiy to overcome air resistance in flight) is completely different between these rounds. Sure at the muzzle these rounds are simmilar, but when was the last time you walked up to a deer and shot it Richard Kuklinski style (look it up)? 225gr 300 BLK OTM has a BC of .629 while a buffalo bore 230 gr HP has a BC of .143 (in this case higher # is more gooder). What does this mean? At 50 yards a 300blk bullet will have lost 15fps while a .45acp will have lost 64fps which is a little over 4x the velocity loss. At 100 yards a 300blk bullet will have lost 28fps while a .45acp will have lost 114 fps. While I agree that a subsonic 300blk round might not be ideal for large game, saying that it is comparable to a pistol round is just not true.
It’s not just velocity either. After a little over 100 yds, most 45’s have hit the ground.
Yep. That 220-ish grain .300 drops 10-12″ @ 300m. That .45 would only get there if the first 200m of the trip were made in your pocket.
But what good is BC if there are 2? consistent expanding loads? .45 is made to be subsonic. Loading a bullet developed for 308 or higher speeds into something that doesn’t break the SB is pointless. .45 drops, sure, but it also expands, and for cheaper.
I don’t understand why there this stigma with using subs for deer hunting. If you are using subs, your going to have to be in close- personally 100 yds or less. If you land a head shot, it’s game over, of course, but how is a 220 grain sub at 1050 fps any different than a broad head arrow? Break the ballistics down if you wanna, but shot placement is key. A sub will pierce a heart no problem as well as a skull. I’ve witnessed it first hand and I promise you it works well. Historically, I have only hunted tails with a .45-70 because I prefer quick, humane kills, without any bs, but a 300 blk sub will get the job done. Any other deer around will run about 30 yds and then continue to back to whatever they were doing, thus providing you with an opportunity to load your freezer in less time= more trophy time. Anyone who thinks subs are inadequate for deer is inexperienced or just a plain, bad shot- I promise you. 300wtf has been used for years in deer eradication programs in many states, there’s your proof. Just remember that with freedom comes responsibility- don’t take chances on long shots… just because you “can.”
I wanna find summa that .300wtf.
Look, the reality is this- a 300blk sub will effieciently drop a tail, no problem. I’ve witnessed it first hand and it’s still far better than my bow. I have always used a .45-70 bc I enjoy quick, humane kills, but the Blk provides a much nicer experience. It’s so quiet that any remaining deer will run about 30yds and then continue whatever they were doing. 300wtf has been used for years in State operated eradication programs- YouTube the videos. Head shots are great, heart shots are fine as well. I’m tired of reading comments from people with no field experience with this round. Yeah, you can 30-30, 338fed, etc, but if you OWN a BLK and a CAN, by all means try it. Just remember with freedom comes responsibility. Haters
The 300BLK is still in its infancy. I agree that a HPBT is not a good choice for a subsonic hunting round. It is not designed to expand at subsonic velocity, it is designed to maintain its shape for accuracy while withstanding the pressures needed to propel it out of a barrel at +25k FPS.
There are only a few .308, 180-220gr Hunting/Self-Defense rounds that have been developed to expand at subsonic velocity with the weight to cycle the AR platform. Lehigh Defense is leading the charge with their lead free Controlled Fracturing and Maximum Expansion hunting/SD rounds. They also have rounds that can be used for bolt guns with lighter weights allowing for higher velocities.
For deer hunting with the proper bullet- Is the 5.56 better than the 300BLK both being supersonic NO.2x weight, ~+2/3 velocity. Is the 5.56 better vs a subsonic 300BLK at under 125yds, NO. Over 125yds 300BLK not good due to rapid decent but this is more of a problem with the round being at the edge of its practical range.
The 62gr 5.56 has ~ penetration of 15-20″. 170gr CF huge wound cavity form 2-10″ penetration continued past 16″. The 200-220gr rounds show increased penetration because the higher weight retains its energy. Lighter faster bullets are recommended for home protection for exactly the opposite reason, the lighter bullet slows down faster when it impacts and doesn’t pass through as many walls.
With the correct bullet subsonic 300BLK is a perfectly viable hunting round for medium to small sized game.
I agree with evrything you said about the 300 Blackout (except the “+25k FPS”. I think you left out the decimal point! :-)) )
As a matter of fact if it weren’t for the cost/nonavailibilty of 300 Blackout cases/bullets (and also loaded ammunition) I would happily forgo my AR’s in 5.56, though in a SHTF situation I would be much more likely to run across 5.56..
I am hoping new powder devlopments will increase the supersonic speed of the Blackout by 500 or so fps. A guy can wish cant he?
I just really like the idea of one caliber being able to be used as lightweight medium-high velocity target, varmint, and medium game round, as well as heavy subsonic replacement for 45ACP in self defense, but with 2-4X the magazine capacity of a Glock or 1911, and still be effective and accurate well out past 100 yards.
I also like the idea that in a 10″ AR pistol configuration I can shoot the heavy subsonics, or switch to lighter supersonic rounds, and reach out to 200-400 yards, with only a 200fps velocity penalty when compared to a 16″ barrel.
Add to that that I only have to buy one kind of brass, and two types of powder. One set of reloading dies does it all. Two barrels, with 4-5 different rounds to choose from, that can be fired from both. Interesting.
It just seems to me this provides a tremendous amount of versatility from a common platform and caliber. For me, increased versatility = increased value.
Is 300 AAC BLK the new do-all and end-all to make other rounds obsolete? Heck no! Not even close. But with higher performance in .308 and other calibers, in certain more limited applications, comes higher cost and reduced versatility. Choose your poison.
There are those who will prioritize high performance, and those who will prioritize versatility at the expense of high performance. I just happen to value the overall versatility and cost effectiveness of the 300 AAC BLK for my particular needs. Your mileage may vary.
A 1,000 yard bolt gun would still be very appealing, except for the fact that I can’t even see half that far these days, as the advancing years have taken their toll. The 300 AAC BLK shoots farther than I can see, and is more than sufficient to deal well with anything I am likely to shoot at, without breaking the bank, my ears, or my aching shoulder.
Did I mention fun?
I will argue this round is perfectly capable of harvesting deer. I would limit the shot to the distance I could hit a deer brain 10 out of 10 times, and only head shoot. It’s not the gun that kills it is the hunter.
Wow they will let anyone write a review now. First off you have no idea how the subsonic 300AAC round is designed to work. You are expecting it to expand at subsonic velocities with bullets that are made for velocities above 2000fps. The way a heavy subsonic round kills is by tumbling. I have shot 18 deer and countless pigs with this round at subsonic velocities and never had one make it more than 50 yards max. I
have also shot 4 deer with the 220gr outlaw state bullets. These bullets will expand into a perfect mushroom even at 800fps. All deer shot with these dropped on impact with the bullet usually just under the off sides skin. I by no means am saying this is the right round for everyone. It does what it was designed for, and that is to fit in an AR platform and take out it’s targets with less noise than a 5.56 when shot suppressed and with more energy. I use this round for hunting close to suburban areas where noise complaints are a problem. If I had my choice I would go with a 308 or 260 but to get my job done, the 300 is round of choice for me.
15 white tails 14 recoveries all with sw mp 15 srt suppressor hornady 208 subs. 125 yds or less. They never heard what killedem.
Try not to overthink this. Remember also, you can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor.
I call B. S. on this article. I have a friend who took down a black bear at 250 yards with a 300 blackout subsonic round. I have two SBR’s in that calibre. One of my very favorites. I carry a Kimber Super Carry Pro chambered in .45ACP daily…
No doubt a 220 GR subsonic .308 FMJ or OTM bullet can and will probably kill whatever it hits, the question is more one of how critical is shot placement to achieving a fast and humane kill. No one wants to be on the receiving end of any .308 bullet, regardless. A non-expanding projectile, through the heart or brain will kill instantly. A shot through any other vital organ will kill, but more slowly. A shot missing vital organs but severing an artery will kill, but only by the animal bleeding out, which can happen quickly, or can take awhile. A shot that misses both a vital organ and major blood vessels will likely wound severely, by leaving a large puncture wound, and may or may not kill at all, or at least not soon enough, creating a suffering cripple.
So an expanding bullet makes shot placement less critical, because it creates a much greater shock wave, transferring more energy, which creates a much larger wound channel through soft tissue than a non-expanding bullet, which leaves a clean hole about the same size as the bullet, more like you would expect from a target arrow. Bullet tumbling and fragmentation on impact, as in the .223/5.56, can accomplish the task that expansion does, but is known to really tear things up and leads to unpredictable results. Not good if you are hunting for meat and trying to use as few shots as possible.
Lehigh makes some impressive copper projectiles designed specifically for use in subsonic 300 AAC Blackout rounds. They are designed to expand radically at subsonic velocities, and form four razor sharp petals that act like knives slicing through flesh, bone, organs, and blood vessels. So, if someone wants to make a fast, humane kill more likely, even with poor shot placement, and shooting subsonic, then a look at the Lehigh products might be advisable.
You probably already know most of this, but it is offered as well for the benefit of those who are newer and less experienced, and may not.
Shot placement is as important as caliber. If you can’t make the shot, it will not matter how fast the projectile is going.
I would say shot placement is MORE important than caliber. If you miss, what’s the difference what caliber it was? (‘cept nukes of course 🙂 and maybe gas and biologicals…)
What absolute bollocks… We’re not advocating here hunting deer at distances over 100m with this round Subsonic, but as always projectile choice,makeup and accuracy hand in hand with energy at POI will result in a good kill versus a slow or potentially non-lethal shot.
The 300AAC will work subsonic with acceptable MOA accuracy and out to 100m (Therefore usable in good close country bush areas) when suppressed and based on good marksmanship principles and game selection its game on! I have recently invested in the LeHigh 196 maximum expansion projectile for just this reason in my rifle with the wounding channel looking similar to that caused by a broadhead and massive shock to the game.
I’d far rather neck shoot a large Red Stag in the Roar with this than some little 5.56 round even (BTW I have both rifle calibres) with say a blitz or Game king as the projectile. 55gr (which is pretty Std fare for 223 or 5.56 except for 1 in 8 twist rifles ) it is just too piddley and unpredictable to take on a animal in that state charging in on you.
There must be something to this increasing the potential wound channel stuff (DUH!!!) as I understand Hornady too are also developing a similar round for subsonic needs.
So don’t get scared off, just be intelligent about your choices…
Useful comments. Not being sarc.: What’s a Roar? As in “…neck shoot a large Red Stag in the Roar…”
I have an extra Rock River lower, and a 10.5″ upper barrel and receiver by H&S Tactical on layaway. I plan to get the SIG arm brace kit to use as a subsonic pistol. Need to pick out a BCG and charging handle, thinking about a Low Mass Lightweight Nitride COMPLETE Bolt Carrier Group: any thoughts? So many finishes, so little scientific info, they’re each “the best.” If someone knows of a better AR platform than 300 BO Sub; for a Quiet, Lethal, Effective, Efficient, low recoil, round: announce it on the rooftops, and, here, of course.
Screw all of this. Hunt with a .50 Beowulf, and it really doesn’t matter what you are shooting. Supposedly the .50B is rated for bison.
and what are ya gonna do with the pile of goo afterwards? shooting something like a pig with a 50cal is like shooting a squirrel with a 17HMR, there is not much left and what is left is full of bone and other fragments.
For deer I use the Barnes Tac TTSX 110 gr made for the AAC. Shooting supersonic at around 2400. I’ve taken 2 bucks over 150yds and a doe at 100 here in Texas. Complete pass thru shots.haven’t had one run yet..
Its all about using the right tool for the job. I shot a couple dozen deer with 223. I quit when i recovered one a day later that had been double lung shot and still ran several hundred yards. For hogz 223 and head shots are deadly. I have only had one boar charge me, he was head shot with a 308, went down, we started walking over and here he comes, thank god my buddy grabbed my ar, he took 7 or 8 shots of the blackhills partitions, and i only think he stopped cause one severed his spine.
I have a Question for people that hunt hogs with a suppressed rig. Do you get more shots at a sounder of hogz if the ammo is subsonic vs supersonic? If so that raises a very etuical question if subs are less leathal than supers. Farmers want as many dead hogz as possible, i only kill what i eat, but would subs get you more shots at a herd before they scatter than supers? I kinda doubt it from my hog hunting experience they are super smart and they hall ass at the mere sign of trouble..
And for those doing head shots on deer i would say to ise caution and have a near perfect shot. Ive never had the dreaded shot the deers jaw off and it ran off and slowly starved, but i have shot one in the head with a 308, blew out both eyes, and the deer sat yp when i got close. The deer brain is real small, and even a decent hit to the head will not always instantly kill…all my 2 cents imo
Great article for a good discussion topic
Well if you are going to hunt off the AR15 platform and go for big game there is at least one round that probably gets in the ballpark and that would be the .50 Beowulf. But, its proprietary round and very expensive. Notable in the comparison is that it is actually double the case diameter of the 5.56mm while using a 7.62mm bolt face. As one article notes, its performance is in line with the 45-70 which put down millions of buffalo in its day.
I am a new user of the AR 15. It’s good to read all of the testament of all of you. I feel well in formed about the use of all the different ammo. I will be using a 300 blackout.
Here’s my personal experience:
Barnes makes the TAC-TSX bullet for the Blackout. I’ve shot 3 bucks over the past 3 years with this round (about 75, 100, and 130 yards away from a 9″ barrel) and it was just as effective as the 30-06 I’ve been using for years before I got my blackout rifle. It expands to .50 caliber and penetrates 18 inches according to Barnes, and I’ve found that to be true.
I’ve used subsonic FMJ hand-loads for my suppressor (950-1000fps) to shoot hogs and coyote at relatively short ranges ~75 yards with great success, however sometimes they run for 50 yards or so before dropping if I have a bad shot. I also plink with it and shoot varmint.
To me, the biggest advantage of the .300 blackout is that it can be a completely appropriate hunting rifle (in terms of power and accuracy) in a 9″ AR-15 platform. Sure I get some dirty looks from the old-timers, but I always bring home the buck. Rather than carry a full sized hunting rifle on a sling on my back, I can carry my lightweight blackout on a ready to shoulder tactical sling in front of me. Its sub-MOA accuracy and good for deer farther than I can shoot in the woods. Even with my suppressor attached (which eliminates the need for hearing protection) its still much lighter and faster to handle than a traditional hunting rifle. That said, even when I’m hunting in NY (where AR’s and suppressors are illegal) I still prefer my .300 blackout bolt gun (Remington 700 aac-sd) to my 1903 Springfield (30-06).
To each his own, but IMO if you are shooting Buck sized game and smaller up to 300 yards away, the .300 AAC Blackout in whatever platform you prefer is a perfect caliber.
the thing about subsonic is that it is a special niche round which there is a specific reason for it. it is not meant to be high power but to be quieter. as well as having less recoil the addition of a good suppressor (not the garbage suppressors you buy commercially that don’t silence a darn thing) you can have a weapon as quiet as a CO2 pellet gun in 30cal when using a bolt action. with a good designed suppressor and the addition of subsonic ammo you can actually hear the firing pin hit.. besides less wear and tear on the weapon this is the reason for going subsonic. must be subsonic or you get a supersonic crack that is as loud as a 22cal standard velocity..
now as to hunting with it. you can take deer with it without any problem if you place your shot correctly. you need to sever the motor center at the base of the spine to drop anything in its tracks with subsonic. i know the argument “ill mess up my trophy” im like you cannot eat antlers so why even bother. i got no use for people who kill for pleasure so don’t even get into that argument with me. if you going to kill an animal let it be for a dam good reason and not just for its head.
the other argument “the head is too small a target” a good rifle in the hands of a competent shooter should be capable of 1/2in-7/8in at 100m, even with sub sonic.. if you cannot hold this in a 5rnd group then i suggest you either practice, get a good rifle that can, or look at your ammo choice..a shot out barrel or a slow twist will not be accurate.. as a general rule the longer a bullet is the faster the twist must be, the slower a bullet the faster the twist must be.. a 1-12 twist would be limited to a 0.800in long round nose bullet if it is subsonic. as subsonic goes the round nose bullet is the most stable design as most of the mass is in a shorter package. i have personally shot 165gr cast round nose at velocities as slow as 750fps and put each round in the same hole with a 1-12 twist in .308.. a round nose is great, a SP style bullet or other pointed bullets are not effective subsonic designs.. in the trans-sonic range these will get unstable as hell and want to tumble.. the design is a major flaw. as the laws of physics goes a moving body the heavy end always wants to point forward, so when the spin is less the pointed bullets will want to swap ends. this is why round nose is an excellent choice for subsonic, there is no heavy end so it is less apt to tumble… also round nose will transfer more energy at subsonic than a pointed bullet will as there is greater nose contact and is less likely to just ice pick through..
but as with everything there is a trade off. with subsonic your range decreases drastically.. with a standard .308 in 155gr HPBT loaded to 2950fps you can pretty much zero at 250m and be off by only 2-3 inches from 100m to 300m, just aim for center of mass with a 1.5in up or down hold off and squeeze one off and your going to hit with no adjustments of the scope, makes it real fast for tactical situations and no guessing. but with subsonic 1000fps you must know your ranges exactly as the differences of only 25m range estimation error can be several inches out past 100m. with most scopes i would guess your range to be limited to around 200m-300m with 300m being a half circle trajectory, you will be lobbing it in. get ready to adjust often and to range often if you the kind who likes to track instead of ranging out an area and setting up a hide.. subsonic has its place, it is not intended for max penetration or range..
Comments reflect a lack of understanding about the value of sectional density in killing larger game. Yes the .223 will give shock the subsonic blkout cant give in any grain. The truth is that at any range a bullet always holds it’s weight and diameter for the purposes of killing it rains supreme. The truth about guns is a good resource for most things but this article lacks a true understanding of terminal ballistics and a wide range of experience with big game bullet impacts. Sectional density is king when it comes to dropping LARGE game and in the end animals over 180lbs need a bullet with a high sectional density, like those of the subsonic variety with regard to the .300 blackout vs. the .223.
The best cartridge for 308 & 3006 is the budget AMMO blue box 150gr 308 180gr 3006 on shot either gun game over simply the best bullet I’ve ever used & and it’s very affordable again Federal power shock blue box will get ur game on the ground
“Muzzle energy is a clumsy indicator of killing ability.”
He completely contradicted himself. The .223 actually makes A LOT more muzzle energy than the 300 BLK subsonic. The 300 Blk subsonic only makes about 550 fpe.
The subsonic 300 blk is not designed to maximize total muzzle energy, it’s meant to be subsonic AKA quiet while still delivering as much force as possible at subsonic velocity. And the higher BC of the bullet is a significant advantage over a 45 pistol cartridge. Also if hunting with a subsonic .300 you should use high-expansion rounds to make up for the lower velocity
With faster .300 Blk ammo, the goal was is not really to have more muzzle energy either. The .300 blk bullet has a lot more surface area which means a MUCH larger expansion and fragmentation than the .223 and thus greater wound cavity especially with HP and fragmenting bullets. But higher velocity .300 rounds will be much better at properly precipitating the expansion.
I have two boys, 11 and 14 and we hunt primarily .300 blackout subsonic expander from EBR Ammo. We use a Noveske .300 blackout with an AAC suppressor. We haven’t lost a deer or hog in three years. We’ve killed around 30 deer and a number of hogs. The .300 blackout with EBR Ammo is our families favorite gun and round to hunt with.
I will go on to say, there are a lot of .300 blackout rounds that are ball or match. If you are using these, you will not have good results. I personally believe the old adage, “you get what you pay for”. We hunt in Texas and I regularly tell people, the .300 blackout is more than enough for most of Texas. My son shot a 190lb. buck last year and we took a 250lb. hog and both of them ran 20-30 yards and dropped. I got video if you don’t believe.
I’ve been doing a lot of testing with the 300 blk in subsonic form. I needed something that didn’t disturb an area with gun shot noise. Whitetail depredation, qdm, and hogs over the last four years. I’ve tried all kinds of bullets, jacketed, lead, round nose, spitzer about 65 different bullets now and even made some hollow point designs. The blackout at subsonic velocity IS NOT SUITABLE for game. Sure you shot one deer or your uncle’s kids friend shot A hog. I’m into the hundreds of deer and hogs and it’s not reliable or even useful on game animals. Even if you get a bullet to expand it’s not moving fast enough to deliver any shock value. Spine shots are ok at best and probably the best option for this caliber outside of head shots. A blackout will penetrate end to end of a hog or a deer. But they will run a long way. I like the round and it’s platforms. My Ruger is a half inch gun with 220 subs all day. Buts it’s just too marginal in it’s killing power. For all those touting it as a 300 yd gun…try this on. A 220gr bullet at around 1000fps zeroed at 75yds is 2 in high at 50 and 2.5 low at 100. That’s 4.5 inch’s margin either way. That equates to a miss on a deer head if you’re off on range estimation by 25 yds. (My experience is the average hunter can’t accurately guess range in the field). This week I’m retiring the 300 blackout to the range fun gun and nothing more!
I’m wondering which caliber/ bullet/ load , 556 or 300 blk, subsonic or not is a better house defense gun. Can any of you experts tell me which combination would least likely penetrate my neighbors walls after it penetrates my walls on a made or missed shot on a perp?
P.s. my walls aren’t brick or concrete.
Lehigh Defense 194grn Maximum Expansion, 1 1/2″ hole in 120lb boar at 52 yards in Florida. The game down here is small, my dad shot a 8 point buck it was barely 120lb. It really depends on what your hunting and the distance. I have no problem shooting pretty much anything in Florida under 100 yards.