By Josh Wayner
I’ll preface this by stating that I am not in any way biased in respect to the use and application of traditional length rifle barrels or associated weapons, but my area of study has been mostly in making weapons more compact and useable for real-world scenarios. If anything, I suggest that readers try out my observations for themselves and draw their own conclusions. Since my last article, I’ve received a very large number of questions and stacks of hate mail regarding rifle barrel length from many individuals as well as members of our industry and community . . .
There seems to be a great deal of Freudian angst when barrel length and bullet performance are mentioned in the same sentence. As such, I was confronted by a vast array of conjectures and speculations that were, at best, unsupported and fairly biased. The truth of the matter is, there’s a great deal of difference in what a shorter barrel can yield and what the potential applications are. But maybe because I’m an optimist, I see advantages where others see impotence.
The vast majority of criticisms I received were in regard to the speed of bullets fired out of said short tubes. It appears that a large number of individuals are fixated on the concept of velocity and that bullets must be moving at Mach 11 and call the remaining rounds in the magazine ‘Goose’ and ‘Iceman’ to be taken seriously when in flight. My first and only advice to anyone who drools over ballistic tables is to invest in a subscription to a quality financial periodical, because at least those numbers can get you somewhere when you apply them, and while you’re at it, subscribe every member of congress, too. Velocity is like the vain, fair-haired vixen that your friends are always talking about. You always want to get more of her, but you don’t really know why other than just superficial attraction. The allure of a high velocity number on your ballistic card is just too attractive for most to resist.
Loads and Specifications
In my personal opinion, the .308 Winchester is by far the best candidate for chambering in your short barrel. Other calibers will of course work, but not all do as well as others. The biggest complaint I have against sub-.300 caliber chamberings in shorter barrels is the reduced mass and limited selection of quality heavy bullets that are available currently. This might be a generalization, but unless you have a wildcat chamber, there’s little that the .308 can’t do in a short barrel that some other caliber can best. And believe me, I’ve looked.
No other commonly available cartridge gives you the ability to push a 168gr .30cal bullet out of about 11 inches of rifling at 2380fps while not wasting powder or barrel life. There is a such thing as too short, and anyone looking to run a sub-12” .30 caliber should look seriously at 300 Blackout, as it’s more efficient in regard to powder used and velocity produced. Think a short barreled .300 Blackout is a close range brush popper? Travis Haley sure doesn’t think so, and neither do the targets he rang at 750m.
In point of fact, I don’t think that any rifle of any caliber really ever needs a barrel over 20”. I’m not alone in that sentiment, as many Magpul fans or long range students out there who own The Art of the Precision Rifle will know, cowboy patriot Todd Hodnett states that he will never own another .338 Lapua over 20” again. I can hear it now: “Heresy! Heresy! The big brand makers like Remington and Savage make .338s with 26” barrels plus brake and they must know better!” When those guys yell at you, just smile politely and sleep well knowing that the extra feet per second that they claim won’t save their ballistic souls.
I’ve found that short barreled rifles like my 13.5” .308 do their best with a medium weight bullet travelling at a moderate velocity propelled by a modest charge of medium burning powder. See a trend? The thing with shorter barrels is that you have to be mindful of what components you use to load them. And handload you must to get the best performance. Unless, that is, you count Lapua’s new 170gr FMJ load, which is supposed to be for .308s as short as 12” with a claimed 16” velocity of 2460fps using ‘low-flash’ powder, there isn’t a lot out there that really works well from the factory out there that gives good velocity and low flash signature.
The hands-down best powders for a short .308 are IMR4895 (not H4895, they are different actually), Hodgdon Benchmark, and Hodgdon Varget. Of those, good old IMR4895 provides the lowest flash signature and is the most temperature stable, which is really kind of laughable when you realize that the other two are billed as ‘Extreme’ and are supposed to be consistent across a wide range of temps. To top that off, the Hodgdon website has a graph claiming IMR4895 to be the worst performing powder of those listed. Somebody call Alex Jones, I smell a conspiracy!
Low pressure primers, specifically the CCI 200 Large Rifle variety, work very well for getting good loads without flattening the primers. Really, any number of quality 168gr-class bullets can be used that way, including Hornady, Sierra, Nosler, and Barnes. I personally like the Hornady BTHP, but the AMAX is good too. To push them, I use a charge of 42gr IMR4895 in Lapua brass loaded to 2.835”. This gets me an average 70 degree velocity of 2380fps at the muzzle from my 1:10 twist barrel.
Short Barrels and Bullet Flight
Here’s where people get confused and angry. What I’m about to say may offend some, but it’s the truth: velocity is abstract. I’ll give you a few minutes to think about what kind of things you’re going to write me in the comments section. When you get back, I’ll tell you why it doesn’t matter.
The truth is that every shot is different and entirely dependent on a host of external and internal variables. Virtually every gun rag out there lists five shot averages on their data tables, and for good reason. Velocity is an abstract concept and isn’t concrete. Even if everything is exactly the same down to the powder kernel, there is still some variance in velocity even if it can’t be easily measured. That’s life.
My own .308 Win load isn’t a perfect 2380 fps. That number is an average – I’ve had bullets move as fast as 2390 fps and as slow as 2368 fps in the same batch, and I’m a seasoned precision handloader. Because of that, we get slight variances in point of impact.
Let’s say I’m on the 540 yard line at South Kent Sportsman’s Club, my home range. Off of the elevation setting of five mils at that distance from my 100 yard zero on a 70 degree day, the individual round moving at 2390 will impact in the same place at 5 mils, but the individual bullet moving at 2368 will impact at 5.1 mils. That may not seem like much, but the group just opened up by 2” if you were holding precisely. Now, let’s say those first two shots were already 4” apart. Now you just dropped that last one in low, making your overall group at that range kinda lame.
It wasn’t your fault; velocity is just a vain lady. She gets worse, but the thing that you have to remember is that velocity is nothing more than an estimate that begets another estimate. By averaging 2380 fps, we’re assuming that those shots are typical of the rest of the lot. But that may not be true.
If there were two hotter loads in that bunch, they raise the average and thus create error in the predicted trajectory. See how that can be a problem? Now imagine that you’re sitting behind your .338 and shooting at a distance of 1900 yards and your muzzle velocity estimate is 2900 fps. It’s actually 2839 for this particular cartridge. Yeah, you just made a $7 noise. But don’t worry, it wasn’t your fault. Velocity happens.
Now let’s go out into the snow. It’s 10 degrees and that sucks, and so does your velocity now. My loads drop down to a nice 2300fps average at this temperature, and my 540 yard setting is now 6.3 mils. That’s 1.3 mils on average more drop just from temperature and air density alone from my 70 degree point of impact. So in the extreme temperature range from 100 to 0 degrees, I have about 1.5 mils of variance at 540 yards. The effects of temperature are constant, and velocity is constantly affected by the environment. Do you see now how velocity isn’t something that can be used as a marker of effectiveness or efficiency? It’s constantly changing; therefore, the terminal and external ballistics of the bullet in flight are changing, too.
So, let’s rewind for a minute and put all that velocity talk into context. In my last piece, I noted that there was only a 15% variance between the 26” barrel and the 13.5” both firing the same 168gr handload. 15% isn’t enough to matter to me in the long run. When you fire your long 26” barreled rifle at 2805fps average, that bullet has slowed down to 2380 by the time it hits 200 yards. If you were to fire your 16” barreled rifle at an average 2610fps, you will be hitting 2380fps at only 100 yards.
At a range of 540 yards, the 26” barrel yields 3.5 mils of drop from the same 100 yard zero on a 70 degree day. That’s 30% less drop. When you take the 16” barrel and fire at that range, you’re looking at 4.1 mils of drop, which is only about a 20% difference over the 13.5” length. Let’s drop the temperatures a bit and see what happens. At 10 degrees, our 26” barreled rifle is now impacting at an estimated 4.1 mils. The 16” is now hitting at an average of 4.9 mils. Compare that to the 13.5”, which is at 6.3 mils of estimated drop. In other words, there’s a 17% difference between 26” and 16” and a 24% difference between 16” and 13.5”. On the extreme end, there is a 36% difference between 26” and 13.5”, which really isn’t a big deal. Here’s how it looks in graph form. Notice anything interesting?
I thought you did. You can see that temperature alone can play havoc and make your 26” drop like your 16”, which is now dropping like your 13.5”. Abstract indeed. Temperature plays a huge role in how bullets fly, as does elevation and wind. So let’s close the distance a bit to a range most people can shoot at regularly without much environmental interference, like 300 yards.
So what? That still looks unimpressive? That’s like a million clicks of difference, Right? On a 70 degree day, there is only a 6.4” (2.1 MOA) difference in point of impact between the 13.5” and 26” barrels. On a 10 degree day, the difference is only 10.8” (3.6 MOA). That equates to very little real-world difference. If you happen to run a 16”, the differences are even less noticeable, those being 4.3” (1.4 MOA) at 70 degrees and 7.5” (2.5 MOA) at 10 degrees. None of this is really that big of a deal for real-world applications.
What? How is that not a big deal? Let me tell you: all bullets drop, that’s a fact of life. Modern high quality optics can account for it as simply as clicking the elevation turret or looking through the Horus reticule. Laser rangefinders can give you an accurate range estimate with which you can use to predict a flight path using a quality ballistic calculator. Some like the JBM Ballistics version are available free online and even can allow you to extrapolate a solution for any distance across any range of temperatures on a single data card. Range, click, bang. It’s that easy these days whether you are firing a 13.5” .308 at 1260 yards or a 30”.300 Win Mag at 368 yards.
“But Josh! What about wind?” Well, what about it? Just like talking to girls, reading the wind is tricky and can result in embarrassment if not done properly. I’m not going to detail wind or spin drift much, but I will say that you need to pay careful attention to both. A typical .308 will have as much as .2 mils of spin drift at 600 yards naturally in a no-wind environment. As far as wind is concerned, she is a cruel, cruel bitch that will break your heart as soon as make eyes at you. Reading the wind is a challenge for every shooter, as there isn’t a very reliable gauge to measure wind at every point along a given bullet’s path, just like there isn’t one to gauge a woman’s opinion of you during a conversation. Time, patience, and missed shots are part of the learning curve no matter what barrel length or velocity you shoot with when it comes to wind.
That is another reason I encourage proficiency at medium distances, as there’s significantly less wind influence at closer ranges. This might be a given, but it’s a good given in that there is very little significant difference in drift between a 300gr .338 Lapua at 2800fps (.4 mil drift) and a 168gr .308 at 2380fps (.8 mil drift) at 300 yards in a 10mph 90 degree left to right wind. Even though it is twice as much, it’s only a difference of 4.4” (1.4 MOA). The thing is the .308 gets there at less than 1/5 the cost, less than half the powder, and with a weapon shorter than the Lapua’s barrel when folded. If we’re talking semi-auto, the cost of the system alone can dictate choice, not to mention the availability of parts and weight penalties. That extra 1.4 MOA just got a bit pricy, in other words.
Applications of the Short Barreled Precision Rifle
So what does all this velocity and drop stuff matter, longer barrels are clearly superior on the graphs, right? Well, not really. Let’s take a look at typical engagement scenarios from three perspectives: police, military, and civilian. According to the American Sniper Association (ASA) literature I’ve got on hand, the average distance for a police sniper to fire at (not necessarily hit. Looking at you, NYPD…) his target was only 51 yards based on a 2005 report summing up over 200 sniper shots. That’s hardly far at all, but well within the realistic expectations of urban combat. At 50 yards, there is literally no disadvantage to having a short barrel. In the military, a shorter barrel isn’t something that’s new. The SCAR 17 with a 13” barrel is in use with the SEALs currently, and is no doubt the primary target of Lapua’s new 170gr offering. A shorter barreled weapon is also far easier to conceal and jump with, bonus if it has a folding stock as well.
The civilian market has had a hard time grasping the benefits of a shorter weapon. For one, Americans are literally obsessed with the whole 1000+ yard thing. I seriously doubt that most people who own a .338 Lapua east of the Mississippi has had a chance to fire it past 900 yards enough to become truly
proficient. Besides private land and a few public ranges, there isn’t a great deal of support for extreme ranges compared to normal 3-400 yard setups. The only 1000 yard range that I can access within a couple hours driving is the Marksmanship Training Center (MTU) in Lake City, Michigan, and even then I have to be a member to get in, so I try to get on private land instead, which isn’t the safest thing to do sometimes. The most complete list of ranges over 500 yards I could find consists of only around 270 ranges across the whole country, which seems like a lot until you realize that there are over 25,000 ranges in operation according to public records available from NIOSH. That means that roughly 1% of ranges will allow you to get the most out of your long barrel. Why own a gun you can never get the full potential out of? Owning a .338 Lapua and firing it only at a 200 yard covered range on a bench is like going 30mph in your Lamborghini to pick up groceries. You’re better than that unless you’re Bruce Wayne, in which case you already have a Gatling gun that can fire fingerprint bullets into bricks or some shit in addition to your 4th Amendment-violating sonar goggles.
I’m not going to get into the reasons why people buy the guns they do, but I will say that in America, if it can’t be done by a .308Win, it really shouldn’t be done at all. I’m not trolling here, I’m just pointing out the facts, and don’t play the bear card on me, either. If you feel comfortable carrying a hot loaded .357 or .44 mag up north, realize that a 168gr .308Win, even a 13.5” one, has more force at 1/3 mile than a hot 240gr .44 does point blank. And to think, Fred Bear would have been horrified to learn that the polar bear he shot with an arrow back in 1966 could have laughed off a .308 according to some of the experts I received mail from recently. In short, a short barrel isn’t a handicap for hunting. It’s just the contrary. Encore pistols have been using short barrels in rifle calibers for years, but slap a bolt action and a stock on, and it suddenly becomes a CQB mall ninja’s toy found only in the hands of a Die hard villian. How is that right, Hans?
My hunting rifle is one of my Scally Hill Systems Mk4Mod7 systems that uses a 13.5” barrel. When folded, it’s just 26.6” long and can maneuver through brush like it’s not even there. Even with the stock in position, it’s only 35.75” overall with a 13” length of pull. It’s smaller than most AR15s out there, uses AICS mags, and it’s still a .5 MOA gun after 4000+ rounds and counting out to 540 yards, and yes, that’s an average of .5 MOA. For hunting anything in America, that’s hard to beat when size and accuracy are concerned. Not to mention, it’s the ideal sized rifle for a guerrilla sniper or armed civilian marksman in a time of unrest.
For most realistic uses, a short barreled rifle isn’t a handicap. Considering that most hunting and shooting is done at around 100-300 yards given terrain, available practice areas, and shot ethics, there isn’t really a disadvantage to speak of. Yes, there is more wind drift and drop at extended distance, but a weapon needs to be fitted to its environment. If 540 yards is the maximum distance at which I practice regularly, it makes sense that I build a weapon that reaches its potential at that distance since I can regularly train with it at that range and not using an excessive amount of resources to get there. In my mind, carrying a 50” long .338 Ultra Magnum after deer knowing that the shot is going to be around 100-300 yards is akin to carrying a Custom Shop full size .500S&W Magnum as an EDC piece. Bigger bullets do not make up for poor marksmanship, nor does more velocity. Don’t sell yourself short by investing in a shoulder-bruising powder-hog that you can’t afford to practice with at any real distance in the hopes that you will be like Chris Kyle because Chris had a big gun and shot bad guys. Firstly, you
won’t ever be Chris Kyle and secondly, don’t get your hopes up about shooting bad guys. Go buy Modern Warfare 3 and learn to quickscope with the MSR. Trust me, it’s cheaper and you’ll only get bruised verbally by 12 year olds. Get something that you can fire comfortably, effectively, economically, and lethally at the maximum distance that you can fire at regularly. My bet is that you won’t need a 26” .338 Lapua or even a 20” .308 to do that. In other words, don’t try to make up for your shortcomings with more power. That will only magnify them.
Conclusions
So there you have it. Short barreled systems work and they fit what most people will need a rifle for. Can you go longer? Sure, you can. But the real question is why you would want to, knowing that you will probably never wring the full potential out of a short barrel to begin with at your typical range or hunting excursion. That being said, you’re the master of your own decisions, and fitting your weapon to your environment or preferences is ultimately your task. Personally, I’m a minimalist utilitarian in the true sense, and my practicality dictates that I keep going smaller and smaller until I reach the most compact, useful balance between size and power. Cars, guns, girls, all the same: the smaller, smarter, and more capable the better.
You are demanding the wrong action in my opinion.Why don’t you demand stiffer penalties for people using,possessing and distributing stolen firearms?That would be a good place to start,in my opinion.You have to make the consequences for those actions simply not worth the risk.I live near Detroit we had a story within the last couple of weeks where a 4 year old was shot by another young child by an illegal firearm possessed by a felon.Restricting my,or any other law abiding citizens,right to own and or carry would not stop this kind of thing from happening.End these so called “gun free” zones,it’s only common sense the only people following these rules are people like me.People like me,passed a background check through the State and Federal Govt,already register all of my firearms and carry on a daily basis for my safety as well as my family’s and quite possibly yours.I don’t think you or anyone else should have the right to tell me how I will protect myself or my children.I should not have the right to tell you how to protect yours,if you want to depend on the government and the police for your safety……….so be it.That may be all good and well for you,but not for me.I will instead rely on the fact that best person to defend me is me until the police arrive,usually too late.Someone please tell me why our money is better protected than our children.Why is the thought of having a trained armed professional or two on scene protecting our children so scary?I am so angry that no one is protecting my sons while they are at school but there is an armed guard protecting money at a local bank.Action? I demand action!We all want the same thing,a safer more civilized society,pro and anti gun folks alike.But we need to focus our energy in the right direction,its my belief that imposing more restrictions on people that are already following the law is the wrong direction.
Most people won’t bother to begin to read such a long paragraph.
Meh. I’ll rather just do one of those ‘bolt together’ AR receivers.
I’ll stick to DoubleTap’s 200-grain loads for my M&P .40, thanks.
I know those will strike a lot deeper and a lot harder than light-for-caliber 9MM.
Interesting timing for this, I’m looking really hard at an AAC 18″ replacement barrel for a R700.
Wow. This guy makes bold statements BUT uses actual data to back it up.
…you sure you’re right in the head? People don’t take kindly to that there empirical data…
I read through the entire thing and I agreed with every last bit, but by the end of it all I could think was “wow… The butthurt is strong in this one.”
Nonetheless very well done.
Ironically, the management company that runs Columbia Mall has long had a “no weapons” policy at that mall.
They don’t even allow their own professional security guards to carry firearms, or mace, or even a baton. I presume that had a mall guard been at the door as the killer walked in, he would have turned him a way with a sound “No guns” speech and all would have been well.
I am a law abiding citizen of the USA. I have been gainfully employed since my mid teens. I have been married for over 34 years to the same beautiful woman and together we have raised an intelligent, responsible daughter who is now forging her own path in this crazy world. I also own several guns… many guns if truth be told. Why? Because I am free to do so because of the wisdom of our nations founding fathers. Their precise nugget of wisdom which makes this possible is the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution. This message is intended for Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America.
Damn that pesky NFA.
CNC every round? For what that would cost and what money I carry, if robbed I think I’d rather turn over the money than pay for that round!
Have to give them credit for great video production.
I’m cool with the short barrel, just hate the tax stamp and the fingerprint card only available on the second Tuesday of the month from 11:15 to 11:30 AM.
Outstanding article. Thank you. I have a Rem 700 SPS .308 Tactical with the 20” bull barrel (1:12 twist) sitting on a XLR Chassis stock, along with a Leupold Mark 4 ER/T 6.5-20×50 TMR reticle, FFP scope. Here in San Diego, CA we have a ~1,000 yd range and I shoot Black Hills 175gr HPBT .308. The accuracy is amazing. 100 yd zero yields .25 MOA…average. All the best.
If the cops are going to use this then I might try it. As others have said & would hate to go to court & hear how I sawed a nice big hole through the darling, Randy
You don’t need a Ferrari Enzo to do something that you can very well do just as well (and just as fast) as a Ford Fiesta.
Message received.
buy the A-15 with 2 clips and get a date with sharon watts.
If you com across an A-10 for sale let me know….
Maybe they will next come out with a sensor that will tell you what kind of rounds are in the mag, such as Hollow point, round nose FMJ, etc. in case you forgot, with all that magazine changing in a fire fight!
My initial throughts: With regard to bullet weight, why would you want a round that encourages, and advertises, jacket separation?
Total Fake. They should be busted for this.
Clips?
Who says ‘upper receiver dust cover’? That’s like selling a new car and highlighting that is has a sun visor.
‘pistol grip’?
A DPMS AR is more like 750 right now, not 1000.
‘didn’t have a dust cover or forward assist’? Really? Hmmmmm
The people are pathologically obsessed deviants
http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/09/04/colion-noir-on-open-carry-dont-be-a-dick/
I agree with most of the article, but I’d add that you may need to pay more attention to bullet selection. Expanding bullets need a certain amount of velocity or they may effectively become full metal jackets. His .308 should be fine out to 300 yards or more, but at 540 yards maybe not. More significant is the use of M193 or M855 ammo in SBR ARs. At 2500+fps they tumble and disintegrate dumping all of their energy, but much below that they’ll zip right through carrying most of their energy on to other (non)targets. They will drop below that velocity at 175 yards or so out of a 16″ barrel, so if longer shots are possible you might want to find a different round. Overall though, I don’t think you need exceptionally powerful rounds unless you’re hunting dangerous game. Even elk or moose shouldn’t be too much of a challenge with a .308 SBR out to 300 yards and passed that making accurate shots becomes much more challenging.
I realize that I’m stereotyping, but when is the last time that you saw a PTA mom selling a black rifle?
I use to see these open carry folks as activist and my opinion was that it put 2nd Amendment people in a bad light. My feelings have evolved somewhat. About a year ago I was hog hunting in the Seminol Ranch wildlife management area about 20 miles east of Orlando. A section of the Florida Scenic Trail runs through the area. It’s public land and is used by sportsmen, hikers, birder watchers, and campers. I’m walking down the trail with a 30-06 rifle and camo clothing. On my hip a Springfield XD 9mm. I come around a corner and encounter a group of bird watchers from a club in Orlando. I move to the side of the trail so they can pass and pulled down my face mask so I could politely say hello. They passed one by one and I nodded and said “Hello, Hi, how’s it going,” etc. I noticed several staring at the pistol. About 6 hours later I’m at the hunter’s check station to turn in my daily quota permit and the ranger asked, “Did you run across some people bird watching on the south trail this morning?” I said yes and he laughed. He goes on to say they walked all the way up to the station to “report” me carrying a handgun in the open. Apparently the leader told them all that was illegal. No said a peep about the high powered rifle slung across my back but that pistol unnerved them. The ranger actually told me he assured the group I wasn’t breaking the law, (embarrassing the leader), and then told them it was recommended they learn the laws if they were walking around the wilds during hunting season. I laughed too but admit this just didn’t sit right with me. I wasn’t in some mall. There was a scoped rifle across my pack. And it was hunting season. My point is they were just hyper-sensitive city people who walked miles out of their way to try to get me in trouble.
Nick, I haven’t seen a springfield mil spec at 475$. They are usually $667 plus tax. If I were to find a new one for $475, I’d grab it quick.
Thanks for decoupling velocity from accuracy! My jurisdiction prohibits any SBRs, but my own experience supports your thesis. My own precision rifle has a 20″ barrel, and the most accurate rifle I’m ever likely to shoot also wore a 20″ barrel. As for the suppressor, well, I’m working on it.
Well trained, indeed.
I have seen ads this bad irl. Just saying.
Oh, and did you know you can download the gun from facebook? Because I sure didn’t. Where can I get hooked up with that deal. :p
president Obama has sidestepped all the checks and balances systems.bye getting people into those offices which he has the control over a total joke!
Ok, I’m just going to throw this out there. I am certain there are a core group of radical “must confiscate all guns” MDA members. However, what I see is a large number of women, Moms and Grandmas, who are good people being taken advantage of. They watch the media spend weeks covering each “mass shooting” and think how terrible. I would bet most of these women did not grow up around guns and are scared of those evil guns. I know my mother was. When I talked to her about the realities of gun violence, she was surprised at the REAL numbers. She never did like guns, but she also learned from our discussion.
I don’t think most of these women are evil, I think they are misinformed and naïve. We need to do a better job of teaching and informing people. Going onto these sites and posting hateful comments that are just plain rude only goes to further convince them that gun owners are uneducated and “bad”. Lets rise to the occasion, instead of spewing hate.
Outside the top ten major (blue-voting) metropolitan areas, there isn’t a LEO in existence that will enforce this. “From my cold dead hands.”
Obama, I voted for you…twice, But never thought I would regret it. Your vision of
Protecting the people of this country
Buy taking their 2nd amendment, and not
Letting is protect our loved ones and life
Is just so miss guided and twisted I cant even get close to what your thinking?
As you my think your wiser than us, your fooled by your ego. Just because im not the President, doesnt mean You know whats best for me..PERIOD!
I should beable to protect my lpved ones and my life with DEADLY FORCE if that is needed.
You Dont know whar MY life has been, and even if we sat down and talked, you have know way of understanding how important it is to me and others to protect our selfs from rhe evils we were exposed to, you dont understand the people your to SERVE!
Kevin hockxxxxxxx
805 766 xxxx
Im here to Help you!
Two of things listed (the assault weapons ban and universal background checks) are simply not doable as Executive Orders. They require new law. Any attempt to EO them would be shot down, and quickly by the Supreme Court. And the Liberal justices would not carry his water on this one: they know the implications of letting him get away with this if there is a future Republican President. Frankly speaking, it is not even clear to me that Universal Background checks would get through the Supreme Court as a law.
This dude is one sick puppy, anyone who has used a blow torched knows how powerful they can be, he was looking to inflict pain and suffering, period.
You can fix something that broken, that puppy probably needs to be put down.
The judge doesn’t need armed cops and bailiffs in his courthouse. He needs to get himself some pepper spray.
This (in italics below) has been added to the original post. I agree with most of the criticisms above, based on the account originally posted. But if the following is true, then this really is a travesty. The cop had no business drawing first. (Note though, it’s simply Pointon’s account and he could be a complete liar for all we know. I’d certainly have fought in court if this is what had happened to me.)
“ED: A reader has come across this account of the incident from mcall.com, which “paints a very different story from what the LEO’s official account. In this version, Pointon said around 3:30 p.m. on Nov. 15, 2012, he was walking out of the Home Depot on MacArthur Road when a car came screeching toward him in the parking lot and struck him in the legs as his wife and child sat in his car nearby.
“Pointon said as he lifted himself off the hood, the driver of the car began cursing at him and reached for a gun. So Pointon, licensed to carry a firearm, reached for his 9mm handgun and pointed it at the driver. Pointon says the driver then got out of his car, pointing his gun. Pointon says he then realized the man was an officer because he could see part of the word “police” on a vest the man was wearing underneath his unbuttoned shirt.”
How many grains/weight is .450 Rigby bullet?
I’m not pleading to a charge I know I haven’t earned. No way. They may convict me in court, but I’m not admitting guilt when I’m not.
Hey, spinners gotta spin. If the facts don’t support your conclusions, then make stuff up or erect sufficient straw men to obfuscate the issue.
Bullying is any action we don’t like now or can find a way to take offense to, forgot about that .
Why doesn’t this mayor get his panties in a bunch, about that police officer with a gun in the back?
What if he becomes unstable and starts shooting everybody in the room?
I wouldn’t be jumping up and down for joy just yet. As noted in the newspaper article, the feds can still bring a civil case against him.
Even this young girl shot better than you maggots!
One need not fear something – with or without reason – to make fun of it. This applies equally to air travel, firearms, French pastry and homosexuals.
That said: “A Mosin? Those things were turkeys when they were new!”
Or: “A revolver? How quaint!”
Oh, yea, and I do want. Very muchly.
Phrases like “apparent tragic accident” bother me to no end. There is no question the accident happened, and someone somewhere WILL dispute that it was “tragic”. But it was NOT an “apparent accident.” Surely no one could believe a little boy would kill his little brother with malice aforethought.
Sounds better than the common one-handed method of using your belt.
Why is it that safety education never occurs to these people as a solution?
Y’all better be DAMNED sure you use correct postage.
I have a early “JM” marked marlin 1895 45/70. It is a very nice gun. Recently I thought about getting another Marlin lever gun. I was in my local gunshop and looked at some new 1895’s. One would not cycle, it jammed up tight. The other had the front sight tilted approximately 5 degrees to the left. How did these leave the factory? I will not buy any NEW Marlin. Scary!
I wish you and your compadres well and VIVA Libertad ! Be prepared and ready. Keep your powder dry.
So, they’re buying back guns from the LEOs to reduce negligent discharges?:)
If they really want to reduce negligent discharges, the money would be better spent on training.
Thank you, Nick.
Superlative work.
This is why I’m a regular at TTAG and not a subscriber to Guns & Ammo.
John
“Never buy a new model firearm in the first year of production.”
I’ll let the early adopters find and iron out the gremlins before I’ll try one.
Pretty pistol, though.
The bride and I spent yesterday shopping in Wisconsin. No silly Gun Free Zone signs.
In one clothing store, the salesperson, a young women, held a shirt up against my mid-section in order to check the size. She obviously felt my gun. No issue. Nothing said, not even a wink or nod.
We then stopped at a Farm & Fleet. Again, no signs and no fuss when my jacket pulled back to reveal all.
Obviously I was carrying legally, but was impressed by the casual (appropriate) attitude by the folks we encountered.
Great article! You didn’t mention barrel stiffness, giggidy, but the advantage of a shorter barrel and accuracy are gaining prevelance. Long, flimsy barrels may give you that great one or two first shots, but a shorter, thicker barrel will give you consistent results throughout an entire range session/urban zombie elimination mission.
“Don’t sell yourself short by investing in a shoulder-bruising powder-hog that you can’t afford to practice with at any real distance in the hopes that you will be like Chris Kyle because Chris had a big gun and shot bad guys. Firstly, you won’t ever be Chris Kyle and secondly, don’t get your hopes up about shooting bad guys”
Hope’s not necessary, your local Marine Corps (or Army for that matter) recruiting center has an “Infantry Option” readily available for anyone wanting to be something more than a Firearm Tourist (mall ninja, armchair operative, etc.) who only enjoys debating hypotheticals and not truly “testing the equipment”.
Chris Kyle is just a Man remember, albeit one of the few who actually considers public service to be necessary, but nonetheless still very human.
More impressive Confirmed Kills from generation to generation, and many in between, are common and constant.
If someone here desires to shoot like this man, simply put yourself in the position to do so, and quit being “sports fans”.
Forgive the poor grammar and Etiquette.
Josh,
Great article. What starting point do you recommend when loading the 170 grain in 762×51 nato brass versus 308 win brass? I understand the nato casing has less internal volume, just not sure where to start with that. I would also like to confirm that the OAL/COAL of the nato brass is the same as win brass.
I am utilizing a 12.5 noveske leonidas barrel.
Thanks
Hey, sorry for not responding faster. NATO brass is indeed a bit thicker, so I load mine back about two grains to start for any given load and work up from there. The two cartridges can be loaded to the same OAL unless you want to load longer if it can work in your magazines. In a semiauto, you may want to stick with SAAMI OAL
To Skyler: when you find an M2 being used as a single shot sniper rifle, please contact me ASAP as I have never seen such in my entire military career. Now, if you are referring to the Barrett .50BMG, you still have no clue as to what you are talking about in reference to this article by trying to bring in the M2 or Barrett.
Oh and by the way…. Chris Kyle made the majority of his kills with a .300 win mag for those who want to hate. There is a lot to take from this article and apply to the real world. I guarantee most that post any hate here have never shot more than a couple hundred yards ever.
A friend of mine just recently hit a steel target with a Glock at 200 yds…. YouTube the video if you don’t believe me, it was also on his very first attempt.
Training, knowledge, patience and practice build skill to which you could kill a man at 750 yds with a 10/22 if you really needed to.
The big gun/big bullet thing is just for two types: ones who want one just because it is fun to have and can afford it and those who feel they must have it because of their inadequate skill and to make them look like badasses to those who don’t know better. Most who post hate here fall into the second category.
A .38spcl snub nose is perfect for personal defense as a concealed carry but you will still have those who insist on having to have a desert eagle .50AE
I know what works and what doesn’t, as I have been fortunate to have been one of the few to make the “elite” and do things 99.9% of people with a gun will never experience. Some of you are stuck in a fantasy world and think big guns and long distance shots are an all time thing…. Sorry, but they aren’t. You would be surprised to know most kills by snipers are really not at great distances. If they were, you wouldn’t have to spend so much time training to be invisible, quiet and accurate on your first shot.
Movies and video games have caused wrong thinking in today’s society.
I am sure many of you are going to blast what I have said with hate but I won’t respond to your “ignorance” due to the fact that if you start arguing with an idiot even tho you are right, pretty soon people are unable to tell which one of you is the idiot….
The only easy day was yesterday.
Rest in peace brother Chris, I hold you and memories with you in my heart. I know you are watching over me as I still continue the mission we set out to complete. I will again see you one day.
Unless Carlos Hathcock was lying, (I am 100% certain he was not), he mounted a Unertl scope to an M-2 and used it with some effect as a sniper rifle.
If a sniper/observer uses a rifle from concealment, to engage the enemy, Is that rifle, at that time, a “sniper rifle?”
I would argue, yes.
Unconventional? To be sure.
Lucky? I think not.
Tom, sir you are correct on that although I don’t consider putting a scope on a heavy MG and firing it single shot as a “rifle”. It however can be effective, I just wouldn’t want to be the one having to sneak that heavy bastard into and out of a hide, ha ha.
You know, that is where the whole idea came from for the system used in the movie shooter.
More than anything honestly it sums up to what you the shooter is comfortable with and can get the job done right. As long as men and guns exist there will always be debates about what is best, but there will never be one rifle and one cartridge with one barrel that is perfect.
Thanks for the input Tom and happy shooting my friend.
I’ll jump in on this way late but some of these posts are absurd! I’ll address a few. 1.barrel length has no effect on accuracy at all. A short barrel, long barrel…either can be accurate as the other. Short and fat has an edge though. Ask the bench rest crowd. 2. The only difference length makes is velocity, which translates to more power on target. 3. Trajectory is not all that abstract…it’s more a constant and pretty predictable in an accurate rifle and good loads. Wind is what always gets you. The faster a bullet the less time wind has to effect that bullet. Speed has some advantage…less windage and more kinetic energy. Given that…I did hog control on a big ranch here in texas. Every three days I was out on 55000 acres of heaven shooting hogs. I considered myself pretty experienced. 24 years military, a police instructor, trained marksman, rifle builder. I learned more about long range shooting/exterior ballistics/terminal ballistics in 4 years than all my training and combat experience combined. I went from a 24 inch rem to an 18 inch .308 and never looked back. I’ve killed hogs from my muzzle to over 1300 yards with a .308. It will do it BUT. After 600 yds with a 165gr pill it’s an iffy killer. I’ve got volumes of records from my days. Reloads, effects, size of target etc. After you loose velocity, expansion gets iffy. The idea when hunting is to kill. Sure you can hit it. Does the bullet/rifle combo have the oomph to do the job? Hunting bullets have a velocity window that they reliably expand in. Too close and it comes apart, too far and it wont expand. That velocity window corresponds to a range window. You also have a supersonic to subsonic timeframe where a bullet destabilizes in flight when it goes through that sonic window. Look at the history of the 155gr palma bullet. It was designed specifically to stay super sonic past the 1000 yard target butts in palma matches. But it will not kill at hog at 10 yards or at a thousand. Its not made for it. It has its purpose on paper. If you name a bullet ive probably tried it and can tell you what works on hogs. Hogs are a great measure of a bullet/rifle. They can be small or huge but theyre all tough. They equate to anything else in north america except the largest bears. I only say that because a bear can/may try to bite big chunks out of you. Paper targets arent possibly lethal. If i was hunting from a high inaccessable stand id shot at a grizz all day with a 308. But its different if im on two legs or in thick stuff. I want a big fat slow bullet. I’ve found that most people, as was nearly said, cannot shoot past 300 to save their butt. 223, 243, 22-250 any hot rod you want. Unless you shoot a lot under field conditions you don’t have the skill to go long. If you shoot once a month you’re not up to the task. Back during my hog days I was shooting nearly 500 rounds a month at live critters on one ranch or the other or varmint hunting. Not to mention my range time. Not many can afford the time and money to invest in that. A short barrel is handy and effective, and .308 is great for it. There’s better. Heck a tiny little 6.5 Grendel has a ballistic advantage at longer ranges. That said. USE A TOOL THAT’S SUITABLE TO THE JOB AT HAND. You dont strip wire with a hammer. A .308 is my daily tool. My tool box is a handy place. I have an item for most jobs. Long or short. But that toolbox is too big to tote on my back. At most I’d have two rifles then. A .308 and a .338 ultra mag in the truck. If I needed the long gun I was usually in a place I could trot back and get my big gun. The duo covered most jobs.
J.D. hog kills at 1300 yds is very impressive! Not sure whether you’re still following this thread but I’d be curious to know what bullets you found were working at those longer distances. I’m getting ready to work up some slower loads for hunting with a suppressor (which sort of duplicates longer range velocities). The objective is to reduce the muzzle blast a bit while staying above supersonic, yet still good terminal performance. (All this to keep the neighbors happy about the levels of noise – actually kind of an issue in a lot of great hunting ground these days)
I’ll start with the Barnes LRX bullet, which is billed to perform well at low speeds.
This write up has some good arguments. I found it funny he was dogging people who like longer barrels to get more velocity for long range shooting, which does help with wind and extreme long range. Because that extra 200-300 fps lost makes a big difference when your BTHP bullet passes the transonic range and destabilizes. But he does mention that medium weight bullets at moderate velocities performs the best in .308 sbr’s. If velocity isn’t important then, why do you need to use medium weight bullets at higher velocities? Why not just use 220 gr bthp with higher B.C. ‘s that are suppose to be best for long range work?
Good post, I got a lot of hate on Reddit for posting my 10 inch .308
For those interested, http://imgur.com/AWjcHGh
I’ve shot the 155 VLD at 2510 fps with 43.5 grains of N530 2.8 OAL – HOT load, work up to it.
The N530 at those pressures is very very temperamental, as such I’ve just tested a load using ADI 2206h, 45.5gr (compressed) with a 168 AMAX for 2380fps, still hot but very accurate.
Longest shooting so far is gongs at 800m, it’s right around when the bullet goes transsonic (762m) but the AMAX likes slowish speeds for good expansion.
The bonus? You can order a 34 inch ultra match barrel and make 3 🙂
That’s an awesome build. From one Redditor to another, keep up the good work.
I am looking at a 308 for deer hunting. I already have a TIkka but was looking t Savage11BTH308 HF THS. I like the Savage because it has a thunbhole stock & has accutrigger & Accu stock. The problem is it is 22″ barrel. I was thinking of either cut barrel down to 18″ or order 18″ barrel. Do have any suggestions? Keep i mind a wood thumbstock & 18″ barrel 308
What do you believe that the shortest practical barrel length for a 50 BMG rifle? I`ve always been a fan or short “handy” rifles and after reading an article put out by dillion precision and authored bt Barrett Tillman even more so. I still want to use 90-95+ % of the 50 BMG`s long range performance by using a angled scope mount as well as using nearly all of the scopes elevation travel in a lighter weight rifle system. Thanks in advance for any and all thoughts,opinions,or answers.
20″ on a .50BMG. Trust me, that’s what you want.
Nice article. I shoot short barrel in various Encores .223 and 7mm-08 (both pistol and rifle).
Curious why you rejected H4895 in favor of IMR. Slightly different burn rate, grain size, metering, velocity between them but pretty similar. Everything I read about them makes H4895 sound better. Do you honestly think the IMR has any advantage for short barrels?
I take that back, actually. Now that I’ve been testing it for a while, Varget and Benchmark are indeed superior to IMR4985. I may have been using a bad batch of Varget or a very good one of IMR4895, but there is a distinct edge in favor of the Extreme powder line. I’ll likely write a follow-up to this at a future date with the rest of my new data.
Thanks much for this article which started few questions. I am hunting in Europe, mostly wild boar and using for this 9,3×62 Mauser with 20 inch barrel. I am using loads with Lapua Oryx 232 gr and Vo about 780 M/sec which is abou 2600 fts/sec.
I am playing with an idea to shorten the barrel to 18, possible 16 inches which is I assume the limit for this caliber due it’s lenght.
What will be your thought about this comparing with 308 Win which is 10 milimetr shorter but also thinner.
Thanks
I have zero experience on that cartridge. I would love to offer advice, but I’d be making guesses at best. Maybe you should cut it and post your results for us here.
Guys,I have been looking to replace my 308 which I have had for 25 years (remington 788 16 inch barrel) I have read countless posts by persons with far more understanding of ballistics than me, however I have shot 300 plus red and sika deer using 130 gr bullets and will note that I have never lost a deer, probably shot 50 plus deer with 223 same thing, it’s all in the placement of the pill, personally anywhere at the base of the neck. The small amount of difference in drop between most common calibres out to 300 is academic IMHO and personally this is the range where 99 percent of deer are shot, me I will stick with my old 308 albeight customized to make it a bit lighter and get rid of the terrible original finish, I hope this helps some aspiring hunters.
Gents, I would like to offer a couple of comments, personally I have used a 308 with a 16 inch tube for 25 years, 300 plus deer using mostly 130 gr pills, never lost a deer, never shot a deer past 330 yards mostly 25 to 200 yd.
IMHO most of the diffence in drop between calibres out to 300 yd is academic, place the pill correctly and you kill the deer, I have shot sika to elk with these no problems only use a 2.5 weaver steel scope seems to me people are trying to get too technical and need to get back to the basics of hunting.
I haven’t seen the first comment on weighing the projectiles. Hornady is the worst, 178gr A-max in a box of 100 weighs 177.4-178.2, this is a great bullet design not a custom bullet by any means but it does help to weigh your bullets. Consistency equals accuracy.
Excellent write up, just when I had points of contention you answered them. You have a good clear take it for what it’s worth analysis approach.
That being said I agree for the most part with your reasoning. You can’t make a blanket statement that velocity doesn’t matter, and I don’t feel you did. The long range precision competition crowd beat their off topic point of view to death here, so I’ll leave that exception alone.
The main issue I have with your assertions is max point blank range(PBR). You are correct that we can use modern equipment to range, calculate, and adjust for distance to target. When at a range this is fine, living targets are different though. They seldom appreciate being shot at, and avoid it. They don’t stand at defined ranges and tend to disappear as fast as they appear. The 2 most difficult things about shooting are acquisition of and ranging a target quickly. All rounds eventually reach a range where they drop fast, at that distance a 25yd error can mean a complete miss.
These are difficult for pro’s, even more so for those of limited practice. This is why people try to stay within pbr. Pbr means your poa should make a good hit. This is not only determined by caliber, bullet, bc, and velocity, but also the target itself. A squirrel, elk and bipedal offender all have a different size vital area, and thus different pbr. The variables that are in a shooters control are bullet and velocity. Caliber and target almost need to be matched within reason(50 bmg on squirrel=no meat, .22lr on elephant=dead hunter) a round needs to perform the given task within pbr. Higher bc and velocity translate to farther pbr, and thus extending the usable range for anyone in a rushed scenario.
The modern bdc reticles are based on the Soviet svd’s pso scope. It was designed with bdc turrets 100-1000m and hold over chevrons for 1100m, 1200m, 1300m with 150gr 7.62x 54r. In practice though the Spetsnaz often used pbr of about 300m, and the chevrons for holdovers out to a more practical 600-800m. The reticle has a simple range estimator in it. I mention this because to use holdovers you still need the range, which takes practice to be instinctive.
Another concern is muzzle blast, my 308 CETME is atrocious with its 16″-18″ bbl(unsure). I couldn’t imagine the disorientation it would cause in a home defense situation from concussion and flash of that unburnt powder. A 300aac would be better. For hunting, that wouldn’t be an issue.
Where I deer hunt however, shots range from 0-400yds. If I trained in summer at 70℉ then go out in 0℉ (as was the case for the past 2 yrs), the difference you show for sbr vs 20″ would be extreme.
Why I still agree with you is, because I used to be an armchair ballistics expert. Until I actually got trigger time on various platforms. My Psl 54 is a joy to shoot from a rest, it is not identical but almost equivalent to the svd. At 10#’s with a 24″ bbl it is quite useless over 200yds while standing though. So handling and balance out weigh accuracy and ballistics in the real world where benches and sandbags are absent. There’s a limit to how short for each cartridge though, if the powder isn’t being burnt you may as well use a smaller cartridge of the same caliber.
My vote is for best of both…20″ bullpup.
Geez… How’d it take so long to find this article in a Google search? Can I say that I’m glad that I found it now? Lol anyways, great freakin article, Josh. Why aren’t you popping more articles like this out more often?
Thanks. I’ll see what I can do in the future.
I want to know about the 6.5 Creedmoor and 260 Rem in short barrels. Looking at the 6.5 Grendel in short barrel I believe the bigger cased 6.5’s may do pretty good too.
I am from the American NorthWest, currently living in Montana but nonetheless still enjoying shooting in Wyoming, where I grew up. I recently happened upon the ownership of a PROOF Research 16″ .308 carbon fiber barrel, and, acknowledging that 800 yard shots are not uncommon in the middle of the desert, wanted to know what this article means for me. What would be my accuracy at long ranges? What should I expect with this AR build?
I personally like a 20″ barrel for both my 7.62 and my 5.56 rifles. I have lost not one foot per second going from 24 to a 20 inch 308. Now in full disclosure I have to adjust my powder charge but the point is I didn’t loose a thing. I would like to ask you one question. what kind of impact engergy are you generating with a 13.5 inch barrel. I would specifically like to know at what distance does your round drop below 1000 foot pounds with a 13.5 inch barrel. The reason I ask is that would the outer limit that I would be willing to take a shot at a live animal.
“Cars, guns, girls, all the same: the smaller, smarter, and more capable the better.”
Yeah, how about no.
A Mustang GT is the sweet spot, V8 exhaust note goodness, decent MPG(for a V8), a technically usable back seat, affordable, adaptable, and so very pretty. THAT is the perfect car, gun and girl.
hate to mention it, but you are aware that that car isn’t a combination of a car, gun, and girl?
Dear All,
I don’t normally engage in chat forums and realise that I am a little behind the play, however, I have only just stumbled across this thread and would like to add my 2 cents worth in case anyone is still listening.
I did wonder how deep into the comments I’d have to go before some serious challenges were offered up against Josh’s interpretation of how and why things behave as they do, as well as challenges to his conclusions, and particularly his recommendations.
I’ll go out on a limb here and declare that I am a former defence department ballistician (Senior Research Scientist) with almost a quarter of a century of hands-on and theoretical instruction in the areas of interior, intermediate and exterior ballistics, hard and soft terminal effects, light weapons engineering, ammunition design and ballistic protective systems. I am also a very keen hand loader, target shooter and pig hunter in my spare time.
Whilst not claiming to know it all, I enjoyed Josh’s (at times, provocative) submission, but like a number of respondents, my experience, particularly with high performance, larger calibre, high case volume cartridges used to propel high mass, high BC projectiles for ultra long-range target engagement (well beyond 1,700m), with critical dispersion and threshold terminal effects, caused a number of flutters during that read.
Without submitting my own treatise, I understand exactly why Josh received some ‘incoming’ from the likes of Doug, Klem and some others, and whilst I would have been more subtle, the general thrust of what they have said is quite valid.
Having said that, it is good to see your passion and enthusiasm Josh, a good deal of what you have said is more than reasonable, and as a bonus, you have certainly got a well needed conversation going.
Best regards to all,
Alexander Krstic Ph.D.
Thanks for the good reply.
Yeah, those guys in the comments here didn’t really get what I was getting at. This was about 13″ .308 rifles, specifically mine, not big bore stuff in military service. I get that there’s a difference, but that is not what I was trying to prove. I’ve got way more data now that I’ve been going with this project and I may publish it here if I get around to writing it.
The problem with the commenters in this article is that they read it, but they didn’t grasp it. I just wanted to have a fun time writing this and wasn’t worried about stepping on people’s toes with my style. Can’t make every anonymous troll happy. This is the internet, after all.
Josh,
Are you still building rifles? I could not find the site and was looking for more information on your rifle.
Got on tonight because my email was blowing up with hate-spam from one of my other articles and I thought I’d take a trip down memory lane.
No, I’m not making guns anymore and am really kinda out of the business in general. You can still find me beating ass in the Vintage Match or other CMP games at Camp Perry, but that’s about it these days. Got 8000+ rounds out of my little 13.5″ rifle I decided to keep and named ‘Bells’. Got into hog hunting and 600 yd matches with it and have been really successful. Still shoots .1 moa all day!
To be honest with you about the rifle, it was outdated before it was even made. I arrived on the scene with a chassis system that used AR handguards a solid three years before the Ruger Precision Rifle, but it wasn’t up for mass production. Is my design and barrel nut more accurate? Hell yes. Is it as available as the RPR? Hell no. I built solid-ass guns and they shot great, but the market decided for me. I was in an awkward price bracket and just opted-out as the chassis guns became available and Desert Tech came out with a gun that was as small as mine but didn’t have to fold or sacrifice barrel length. They say on the internet that I sold the designs or went to work of the government, but that’s all bullshit. I just closed shop and finished college and got married to a woman so good that I’d swear off shooting the rest of my days if it meant seeing her for even one afternoon.
If you want a gun that will truly perform that is semi-custom, do exactly this and don’t waver. Trust me, I’m a professional (slow-clap)
Tikka T3 Tactical http://www.tikka.fi/rifles/tikka-t3/t3-tac
Plus this http://www.kineticresearchgroup.com/index.php/categories/whiskey-3-chassis
and like four of these http://www.alphaindmfg.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=50
and this http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-3-15×42-Tactical-Rifle-Scope-P62238.aspx in a set of these http://www.larue.com/larue-tactical-ultra-low-mount-rings-qd
and add some sort of sling and a Harris BRMS and such and you’ll be good.
I like building guns, but if I had to go about this whole stupid circus sideshow again complete with these laughable fetishists and armchair laureates, I wouldn’t. I hate gun people. Really, I do. Not because I don’t like any individuals in particular, but this industry has a way of making you tired and spin in circles and slam your head into a desk. I hate the culture surrounding the industry because it’s so damn dense and ignorant. (AKs are better than ARs…. and…GO!) But if I had to start over, that list is what I’d use to do it. There really isn’t anything better in the world besides a genuine SAKO TRG sidefolder. Say what you will, but Americans only think they can make guns. Trust the Scandinavians. They know their kit and it’s ten times better than anything available off the shelf from the states in the same price range. If there’s one thing I’ve learned about guns, it’s that those that have restrictions on their rights make better things because they are usually harder to get and meant to last longer. There’s more thinking that goes into them than what is available in America. We have too much of a good thing here to the point where it has made us cheap. Everyone wants a $500 rifle that shoots .000001 MOA at 20000 yards and they want ten of them because ‘Merica. So yeah, don’t waste your money on garbage. I’ll probably get chewed up again for posting this, but it’s true. All of it. I don’t build guns anymore because I wasn’t willing to get nickel-and-dimed by the shooting public and that’s that and it needed to be said.
Anyways, I’ve got more comments to make and other people to piss off, so Evan, keep shooting and don’t buy into the culture of excess. Buy once and buy well. If I can’t sell you a gun, I’ll tell you the truth about what to get. This is the Truth About Guns, after all.
Josh,
The powder and amount used in your loads for your SBR, would you still recommend for a 12.5 piston Ar-10 ? Specifically the 716 ? The only difference is I would be using 150gr bullets.
Thanks,
Josh
So to be honest I have no idea. I’d think you should be safe with the listed combo, but I’d back it off a grain of Varget and work back up.. I actually need to do another writeup on the powders for SBRs and such as my initial data was a bit off. I think I had a bad or inconsistent batch of Varget or mixed up something in the recording phase of the writeup. Varget is WAY better than IMR4895. Benchmark is also excellent, but it has a far greater pressure than Varget, which is a tad slower burning. I don’t like faster powders in short barrels because they aren’t as consistent as a medium burning one.
Try a few out and let us know what you find. I’d be curious to know for sure myself. Sorry that I couldn’t give you a straight answer, but I’m not going to pretend to know that when I don’t. Just be careful and don’t end up with some aluminum in your face.
Josh,
Just reading your article today – almost 2 years after you wrote it. Thank you so much for sharing your data and experience on short barrels. Completely consistent with my own findings and discussions with knowledgeable precision shooters I have spoken with here in Colorado.
Re: “I’m a 24 year old recent college grad, and despite my best efforts to know it all, I haven’t even scratched the surface yet.”
You know more than many of the commentators here think they know. You were more than polite with many of them.
You are a class act. Please keep contributing.
Jack
Jack,
Thanks for the kind words. Humility is lacking in this community for a variety of reasons, but I think it pays to be direct. People in the gun world can’t often express their innate emotional needs and are stuck defending the merits of inanimate objects to strangers and against the viewpoints of other sad souls. The thing I wish above all would be for people to get back into this hobby and pastime for the reasons they first fell in love with it. That’s where the passion is. It makes me sad to see good people consumed with frustration and even spite when confronted by adversity to a topic that they are sincere, but aimless, about.
I’ve been responding to comments on this site all night on these articles I wrote years ago and I’m surprised about the negativity and lack of understanding on the part of so many people. Not one person came forward with alternate data or even a solid reason as to why I am incorrect. I hate that I did a good thing and got scorned for it, but that’s life and the reason I’ve not written more. I feel it falls on deaf ears.
I’ll always be a nice and down-to-earth guy. I’ll tell the truth based on my experience and never lead another astray. I’ve lost friends in this business over trivial things, have been lied to, accused of cheating, asked to leave ranges, and all because I had a difference of opinion or beat a range favorite with an SBR at 600 yds. (True story). It is good to hear that you think I’m a class act, because I try my best to tell it like it is and that is often too much for people to handle. I’m like the Fox Mulder of ballistic theory haha.
Anyways, thanks for reading and I’ll try to get another article out in the future if I can.
Josh
Great write up I’ve always liked the short barrel more compact rifles because of their increased handeling capabilities, and if your research/testing on a short (20 inch) 338 Lapua is correct I wonder if a 16 inch and suppressor would work as well? Or one of the 16 or 18 inch 50 BMG AR-15 uppers would work ?
Your write up here makes sense… Luckily for me I live on a 356 acre ranch and can shoot at ranges that most can’t even contemplate.
Jaden
Guess who is chopping down his .308 22″ bolt gun to 16″! This guy 😉
Nice work Josh. However, you seem to have found yourself in the proverbial “when an irresistible force meets an immovable object” conundrum, as my late dad, rest his soul, was fond of saying. The shooting community is rather unforgiving of those who would knock their sacred cows. I am an experienced shooter, open to challenges to my preconceived ideas, no matter what they may be. That said, you presented an intelligent, well thought out, fact based argument. The funny thing is to see the viciousness with which the attacks are launched. I do not recall you once saying, “Okay everybody, based on my conclusions, you all must immediately go out and buy hacksaws and cut all your rifle barrels down to 13.5”.! I believe you were very clear that this works for you, but no one is obliged to take your path. I for one am intrigued, and would have bought one of your rifles if you were still building them. Since I already have a .308 bolt gun sitting around waiting for a change, I wonder if you would let me know how to build a rig similar to yours?
TSA agent pulls out hot college girl for scrutiny…….yeah, finger sign. Sure it could happen.
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