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NSSF: Retailers Should Consult an Attorney Before Selling Polymer80 Buy Build Shoot Kits

Polymer80 Buy Build Shoot Kit

Courtesy Polymer80

From the National Shooting Sports Foundation:

NSSF is aware that Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) executed a search warrant at Polymer80’s offices in Arizona and seized from Polymer80 one Buy, Build, Shootkit and some company records, apparently including customer lists for those kits.

According to several news reports, in the affidavit to obtain the search warrant – which was leaked to the media – the ATF took the position that the Polymer80 “Buy, Build Shoot” kit is a “firearm” because it is “readily convertible” to fire.

It does not appear that ATF considers standalone so-called “80% receivers” to be a “frame or receiver” regulated by the 1968 Gun Control Act. Retailers should consult with their attorney and/or contact ATF for guidance as to whether it may sell “Buy, Built and Shoot” kits and under what conditions. NSSF will continue to monitor this situation and report further as we learn more facts.

comments

  1. avatar Alternator says:

    An attorney who can read minds? F that. The kits are obviously NOT guns and stopping sales is unconstitutional. So you either cower in fear of bullies or you tell them to go screw themselves. Period.

    If they were available, I would buy one of the kits NOW.

      1. avatar No one of Consequence says:

        Looks to be out of stock now.

        1. avatar Alternator says:

          Hasn’t been one available for some time. I was hunting for one a week prior to all of this garbage and still couldn’t find one. Granted, I wanted a .45/10mm large frame.

    1. avatar Hannibal says:

      “So you either cower in fear of bullies or you tell them to go screw themselves…”

      Brave words from behind a keyboard. More difficult for a company with real people who, if they tell the ATF to ‘go screw themselves’ could face real federal prison.

      You can decide that you know what the Constitution means. But unless you can convince 5 justices or (at least!) 1 juror, it doesn’t matter. How much are you willing to bet on either of those? Have you walked through New York City streets with a slung “assault weapon” over your back? If not, why are you cowering in fear?

      1. avatar GS650G says:

        On the other hand when have they actually frog marched people out of companies off to jail? They prefer fines and sales bans. The ATF knows they can’t really prosecute these case, just confiscate, fine, and stop sales.
        How many people got convicted on these grounds? They already lost the case with an AR builder that probably calls their definition of an AR into question. They dropped it rather than lose their definition of a lower as a firearm.

        This is the beginning of a sales ban followed by harassment campaign. Prosecutions cost too much, take too long, and consume resources. They want money and the end of trade in the items.

        Recall Gibson Guitars fiasco. In the end they just wanted money and nothing else.

        This is what we foisted on ourselves when we created the administrative state. Enjoy it.

        1. avatar Alternator says:

          Don’t open the door. Don’t talk to them. Just tell them they’re trespassing. Tell them to come back with a warrant. When they come back, have fun watching them waste hours going through your entire property. Then sue them.

          Or, you can get down and lick their boots clean.

        2. avatar FedUp says:

          have fun watching them waste hours going through your entire property

          They can make a bigger mess in one hour than you can clean up in two days.
          And if they’re executing a warrant signed by a federal judge, good luck suing them even if they committed perjury on the warrant affidavit.

          The good news is, they might be too lazy to bother with the warrant and just go away if you choose that option. The bad news is, they can bring lots of unhappiness into your life if they really want to make the effort.

      2. avatar endDClies says:

        We have a lot of keyboard commandos out their. Apparently they are four star generals because they will never do what they say others should do. They will be right behind us, typing orders on a forum for all to follow.

        1. avatar Alternator says:

          Answer the door. Immediately hand over your “kit.” Get a nifty receipt.

          Don’t make them come back with a warrant. Don’t make them hunt for it. Just say how everybody but you is a pussy.

        2. avatar anonymous says:

          We have a lot of keyboard commandos out their.

          Sword cuts both ways. We seem to have a lot of people that are willing to simply do what they are told while calling other people keyboard commandos.

    2. avatar KJ says:

      Here’s what an attorney would say: “It’s a grey area, your safest bet is not to sell them. If you sell them, you’re setting yourself up for an expensive legal battle. How much would you make from these kits, anyway?”

      Ask me how I know. . .

      1. avatar Scott says:

        It seems an attorney would say your safest bet is to not do anything, ever. Except that, sometimes you can also be at legal risk when you don’t do what a reasonable person would have done. Either way, please apply copious amounts of warning labels to reduce your liability. And here is the bill for the work performed.

        1. avatar Mark N. says:

          Nonsense, attorneys understand that their clients can’t simply fail to act and need advice as to their options and the potential consequences of any particular course of action. Then it is up to the client to decide what course of action to pursue. If attorneys always counseled their clients that the safest course was to do nothing, and if the clients took that advice, nothing would ever happen. Which isn’t what happens.

        2. avatar KJ says:

          “If attorneys always counseled their clients that the safest course was to do nothing, and if the clients took that advice, nothing would ever happen. Which isn’t what happens.”

          You are quite correct! But I’ll let you in on a (not so) secret: The best clients are the ones who DON’T take our advice. Amirite, Ralph?

        3. avatar Ralph says:

          KJ, clients who don’t listen aren’t “the best” clients, but they are the most profitable. 🙂

      2. avatar Ralph says:

        KJ, I practiced law for 35 years before I retired, and what you wrote is precisely what I would have told my clients.

        1. avatar KJ says:

          Birds of a feather.

      3. avatar anonymous says:

        Here’s what an attorney would say: “It’s a grey area, your safest bet is not to sell them. If you sell them, you’re setting yourself up for an expensive legal battle. How much would you make from these kits, anyway?”

        Ask me how I know. . .

        Exactly. Totally this. The lawyers advice would be don’t sell them. Their next advice would be if you are going to sell them, when the ATF raid your shop, call me at this number.

  2. avatar MB (the real MB) says:

    Maybe the BATFE should concentrate on capturing people who steal guns, ammo, explosives and stop worrying about the average American who’s not a criminal until the BATFE decides they don’t like his legally purchased property. Or just disband the BATFE completely. Either one works for me.

    1. avatar Ol Sarge says:

      MB – if you search “80% guns used in crime” – you will come across articles of cities (large democrat cities) stating it is a rising problem. I believe D.C. just busted a gang (youth group with a parental leader) with multiple lower 80 pistols. Now if you read way down past the head lines, it was 3 or 4 and still a very low percentage of overall (single digit) confiscated weapons. Same in all those cities, 1 or 2% – But it is enough to make a headline and get ATF’s attention. Watch 80% lowers start making the talking points on all the MSM networks, it’s already hitting their papers.

    2. avatar anonymous says:

      The ATF is a garbage agency whose sole purpose is to prey upon the public with victimless crimes. Crimes of “offense” are what they are. They didn’t hurt anyone. They offended them. And now that Commie pinko Biden is getting ushered in to bring forth the utopia, the ATF will be weaponized into a harassment agency. It’s not about the law. It’s about how much money you have to lawyer up and fight it.

  3. avatar No one of Consequence says:

    There are other vendors who sell complete or near-complete kits: a P80 unfinished frame, frame parts kit, slide (either complete or unassembled + parts kit + barrel). Functionally equivalent to the P80 version, but sometimes with different or more choices for slide, barrel, etc.

    Presumably these folks, and their customers, are also in the crosshairs, so to speak.

  4. avatar GS650G says:

    In a few months nothing associated with building a gun will be available online. Then the gov will start going back through previous sales records for large purchases, sales in certain states, or just matching names on other lists.

    And to think people bitched about DJT on his gun policy.

  5. avatar TheUnspoken says:

    Strange, my other 100% complete firearms and even stripped lowers didn’t require me to drill out areas to make room for parts to be installed. They were assembled or ready to be assembled. An 80% lower or frame is not ready to be assembled.

    Regardless of what else came with the order or combined in your box, an 80% receiver or frame should still mean that 20% of the work remains to be done on it. If an 80% frame is not a firearm, it doesn’t matter what else is around it. It isn’t anything until you make it into something.

    But ok, sure, let’s ship it in two or three boxes, that makes it all good right?

    1. avatar Mark N. says:

      Yes, that seems to be the (il)logic of the ATF approach. Since it appears so senseless (to us), it seems that it is simply an intimidation campaign. Same with arm braces.

  6. avatar Missouri_Mule Esquire Emeritus says:

    Let’s get this straight. If I put a Polymer80 frame, jig and drill bit along with a Magpul magazine, a Swenson slide kit, a Wolf barrel and an Apex trigger in my cart at Brownells or Midway USA we are all felons!
    BULLSHIRT!

    1. avatar Missouri_Mule Esquire Emeritus says:

      Damn! I forgot the hand drill and flat file!

    2. avatar GS650G says:

      You might have to break it up into several shipments. To different addresses. Weeks apart.

  7. avatar wr Roberts says:

    you dont need a serialized frame on your own firearm.

    The problem is when you start selling the gun.

    People always want to stretch too far when they have a good thing going

  8. avatar Debbie W. says:

    Let’s See…If you are a dirtbag criminal you are not supposed to posses a firearm whether it’s 80% or 2%, etc. You can be arrested and jailed for having just the ammo.
    Now it takes some degree of intelligence to complete an 80% firearm. Usually the people who do this are machinsts, etc. who can talk the talk and walk the walk.
    Much to do about nothing when it is the receiver alone that is a firearm no matter how many parts are in the box with it. Being as 80% is not a firearm the parts in the box don’t matter…Obviously someone who should not be in charge of decision making has their panties in a wad.

    1. avatar MB (the real MB) says:

      @Ol Sarge A 80% receiver is not a firearm, so not illegal for a felon to posses, since is is just a piece of plastic or aluminum at that point. Now if he is foolish enough to start modification of it to become a firearm, even if he only completes 1% more, now he is in possession of an item legally considered a firearm.

      1. avatar Ol' Sarge says:

        @ MB – I’ll go out on a limb and say those 80% firearms the youth group was busted for in D.C. were completed. But it is possible they assaulted someone by throwing a hunk of Nylon/plastic at the officers.
        Thereby making it an “assault” weapon. 😉

  9. avatar Mudhunter says:

    This is why we should whittle away at the agencies known for capricious, arbitrary, constitutionally vague actions and those who add showboating should be the very first ones to go.

    I guess this is what you get from the “Constitution is a living document” mentality. Its like trying to stand on 3 feet of maggots. And every agency that has that mentality only exacerbates the problem.

    1. avatar Anton Solomyr says:

      To anyone who says the Constitution (which is a contract between the Government and The People) is a “living document”, have them tell their mortgage lender that their mortgage contract is a living document, and that they don’t interpret it to mean that they have to pay *everything* back, and that their interest rate isn’t really what is stated there on line 42-B.

      Let them see how far that goes.

      “How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!” – Samuel Adams

      Boy, he sure hit the nail on the head…

      1. avatar Ol'Sarge says:

        anyone else see the email claiming ATF has already raided customers of 80% Lower, demanding forfeiture of their kits? Or they would return with a warrant. Receipt left supposedly stated Polymer80 inc. investigation.

  10. avatar jakee308 says:

    Since I have 2 polymer lowers for ar-15, I was concerned about whether I would be hearing a knock on my door (if I was lucky) from some clown dressed all tactical and pushing me out of the way to seize these deadly instruments from my criminal hands.

    But I guess since it’s not a complete kit I’ll slide. For now.

    You all do realize that they have seized all records of sales for everything and now have a list of very potential firearms owners in the US. This is how, btw, that a preliminary list will be created before they start their seizing of assualt/Military firearms.

    What’s bothersome is that it will be done by supposed fellow citizens. But then we’ve just been shown that people who work for the FedGov and some states are actually a different type of citizen and one we need to watch out for.

    Their loyalty is to the state and their paycheck.

    Yeah it’s really about time for this country to stop pretending it’s free and a Republic and take on the mantel it’s worn for a number of decades. You pick the name most all of them fit. Except for the one we used to be.

    1. avatar KJ says:

      Supposed fellow citizens who have also taken an oath to uphold the constitution. There’s a difference.

  11. avatar Sk Skeeter says:

    Anyone who bought one of these on a credit or debit card and had it shipped to their home address is the list.

    In case you missed it : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE.

    Not talking to cops is a fundamental and enumerated right. Lying to the cops is a crime.

    Do not talk the police.

    Heard stories of the Alphabet Bois knocking on doors. Make em use their resources. The want a search, get a warrant. They want a conversation, get a subpoena. Don’t let them inside, tell them to get off your property as nicely as you can and no uncertain terms.

    Do not talk to the police.

    Lawyer up and have them direct any and all questions through your lawyer.

    Do not talk to the police.

    You do not have be a part of anybody’s investigation if you don’t want to and it is your right to say so.

    Do not talk to the police.

    No deals , no agreements unless your lawyer is present.

    Do not talk to the police.

    They might take you for a ride but everything has to be done in open court.

    Do not talk to the police.

    So shut up. Shut up some more and finally keep shutting up.

    Do not talk to the police.

  12. avatar Sk Skeeter says:

    Forgot to post. If you, or someone you know, have been contacted by the Government Goon Squad ; the Firearm Policy Coalition and Gun Owners Of America would like to talk to you. Seems like a class action lawsuit may be in the works.

    Of course think before you speak and assume everything you say may be recorded.

  13. avatar Will Drider says:

    Was Polymer80 given a Cease and Desist Letter or Order (they are different)? Any written guidance? They seized qty one (1) Buy-Build-Shoot Kit? Of course ATF seized sales date with purchasers personal information. Other Articles said ATF ordered and received about six “Kits” prior to the raid.

    This is looking like scare tactics to stop sales of something ATF doesn’t like and/or a cover issue to get the buyer data. Look at the fallout from the rad on Q regarding the honey badger! Issued a Cease and Desist then suspended it for 60 Days! WTF? They can’t even pick a direction to go!

  14. avatar Dan says:

    Consulting an attorney is pointless when the assclowns at BATFEces pull new and bizarre “regulations” and “interpretations” out of their ass whenever the hell they feel like it.

  15. avatar Lowell says:

    Let me save you some time – the attorney will tell you NOT to do it.

    One of these kits is NOT a firearm of any kind legally. Absolutely correct, and if the ATF says it is then it doesn’t matter. Not a jot. It doesn’t matter any more than if you can prove that you are exempt from the income tax but the IRS says that you owe – the attorney will tell you to go to offer and compromise and cut your losses. That is the level of power the ATF has until SCOTUS neuters it, or until Trump neuters it, or until the country melts down into civil war and 2A people shoot ATF agents for funnsies.

    So, if you feel like taking a chance on a felony conviction to attempt a SCOTUS challenge then go ahead and sell them. If you feel like getting into a gunfight that will turn you into a martyr, go ahead and sell them and keep your AR handy for the inevitable warrant being served. Otherwise, hand them over and live to sell more guns for the day when there really is no other choice, that day when if they arrest you you will be taken to a camp that you will not be leaving.

    Personally, I say let the ATF have them today, because I believe that ATF has been activated to ramp up pressure right now specifically, along with the new covid lockdowns, the obvious election fraud that is being taken as legitimate, all for the purpose of causing the country to melt down into a civil war. Right now we are in the middle of a color revolution. Biden being installed as Beijing’s puppet is their ideal, but the US melting down and balkanizing will serve them just as well. A civil war will weaken us enough for Beijing to pick us apart at their leisure, and they will do it under color of law as UN peacekeepers.

    You’ve heard of Q? You’ve heard TRUST THE PLAN? You’ve heard of THE STORM? T wind is howling and it’s just about made landfall.

  16. avatar Shire-man says:

    Is there some regulation or law that compels companies to store customer data or is it all for marketing purposes?

    These products are a privacy purchase. You’d think the companies would understand their customer better than to maintain their data. Especially in such a way that can’t be insta-nuked. If HRC can do it so can you.

  17. avatar RedFlaggedandBagged says:

    Rest easy, the NRA will stand to fight for the 80% lowers!

    Just like they stood for BUMPSTOCKS when Trump banned them!

    Send more $$ to the NRA so they can keep protecting the RKBA!

  18. avatar John Boch says:

    Time for a boating trip.

    Damn thing fell overboard!

  19. avatar Retro says:

    If the BATFE shows up at your door without a warrant, pleasantly tell them to go get a warrant while you go get your lawyer.

    Or maybe you put a serial number on it, like “1”, and sold it to a older African American named Barry (or maybe it was Eric) “something”, he was dressed nice and paid with cash.

    Or maybe you got frustrated with it and threw it in the recycle bin a few weeks ago.

    Or maybe, just maybe, it is now a firearm, and they have no authority to confiscate a firearm without a warrant from a judge.

  20. avatar Willis fath says:

    FUCK THE ATF! THEY SOULD HAVE BEEN DEFUNDED YEARS AGO! 80%ers are not finished firearms so there is no serial number to them because they are not finished when purchased! And its not against the law to own one!

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