hunting hunters
(AP Photo/Jon-Pierre Lasseigne)
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From the NSSF . . .

NSSF, The Firearm Industry Trade Association, denounced the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service’s (USFWS) Final Rule that offered hunters a “bait-and-switch” deal that banned the use of traditional ammunition for opening 18 national wildlife refuges for new hunting and fishing opportunities.

USFWS claimed it “remains concerned that lead ammunition and fishing tackle have negative impacts on both human health and wildlife.” It also warned hunters that the future use on additional USFWS lands were open to evaluation.

Despite promises from President Joe Biden that his administration would “follow the science,” the USFWS offered no objective scientific evidence establishing that the use of traditional lead core ammunition poses a risk to human health or wildlife populations to support its decision to phase in a ban.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention studied the issue of consumption of wild game harvested with traditional ammunition in 2008 and found no detrimental effects.

“The Biden administration is capitulating to pressure from radical environmentalists and antihunting groups. This ban will price out hunters from accessing public lands since the cost of alternative ammunition is significantly greater than that of traditional ammunition,” said Lawrence G. Keane, Senior Vice President and General Counsel. “The USFWS didn’t consider scientific data because none exists to justify this ban. This is a Faustian deal that attempts to placate outdoorsmen and women by offering more opportunities but limiting it to only those who will pay additional costs to participate in their recreational pastimes.”

The topic of advocacy posited as pseudo-science was warned by Jim Heffelfinger, a regional game specialist with the Arizona Game and Fish Department and adjunct professor at University of Arizona, Tucson. He published a column in MeatEater warning that alarms over traditional ammunition are “often oversimplified or exaggerated.”

NSSF submitted a comment letter to the USFWS proposed rule on the ban. The Service does not appear open to considering any of the industry’s relevant evidence or alternatives presented.

Alternative courses of action did include initiating an incentivized voluntary adaptation program modeled after the Arizona Game and Fish program that has yielded 88 percent compliance since 2007. Absent sound scientifically proven necessity, NSSF believes hunters should be able to choose the ammunition that best meets their needs, which could include alternative non-lead ammunition.

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  1. Well Barnes makes a nice 300 Blackout round with a full 110gr copper bullet that has been shown to be very effective lethal device. So it is going to limit the cast bullet crowd. Next.

  2. I don’t get what the big deal is. According to the democrats hunters all use 200 rounds of heat-seeking explosive ordinance anyway.

  3. There is a difference between such lead as in car batteries and shotgun pellets, etc. Lead in car battery plates breaks down whereas lead for projectiles does not. If the latter was a problem breaking down and turning to dust there would be no Civil War projectiles to be found. And lead occurs naturally in soil anyway. It’s nothing more than a few control freaks in an office getting their jollies off playing tyrant. Perhaps they should be much more concerned with beer cans and litter left behind by some not so tidy hunters.

    • “There is a difference between such lead as in car batteries and shotgun pellets, etc.”

      It’s the same lead. Elemental metallic lead. Gray-silver look to it. Battery lead is in thin sheets, but it behaves physically the same as round lead shotgun pellets.

      The moment you expose lead, it forms a lead-oxide ‘film’ on it, effectively passivizing it, sealing it inside. The big problem with lead shotgun pellets is bird digestive tracts. Bird ‘guts’ are highly acidic with a very low pH, because hydrochloric acid is what makes the pH so low. (That also explains why buzzards don’t get food poisoning from roadkill. The low pH effectively ‘sterilizes’ what they eat, breaking down botulism toxins). That dissolved lead in the bird’s gut poisons the bird, and whatever eats that bird, be it a bigger bird or a human.

      Hydrochloric acid in bird guts (the digestive ‘juices’) dissolves metallic lead into lead hydrochloride, which dissolves readily into water. That’s what happened in Flint Michigan. They decided to save money by using river water that was slightly acidic, and that dissolved the protective lead oxide layer in the city’s lead water pipes, and allowed water-soluble lead to leach into the water supply. (Lead is just fine in water water pipes, as long as you don’t expose the lead to acidic water).

      It’s also how little kids got poisoned by paint chips made with lead-based paint. The paint chips had a sweetish taste to them, and kids that naturally stick everything in their mouths swallowed some of it, and hydrochloric acid naturally in human stomachs dissolved the lead, poisoning the kids…

      • Thank you so much for posting the facts about organic chemistry regarding lead in our environment.

        Battery plates start as elemental lead, but during use are contaminated by the sulfur from the sulfuric acid electrolyte, creating various lead sulfide/sulfate salts which are readily absorb organically by various living creatures.

        • Nifty, MajorStupidity,

          Next time I see a hunter shooting birds with contaminated lead battery plates, I’ll keep that in mind.

          Just like I’ll keep in mind that the lauded “electric vehicles” you green fascists worship (i) cost more money (for equivalent functionality, they cost WAAYYYY more money) than IC counterparts, (ii) still have to be charged (our grid is ALREADY insufficient, and capacity is NOT growing), (iii) the electricity has to come from somewhere, and WHAT percentage is it, exactly, of America’s energy is produced from fossil fuels??? And what percentage of that is from traditional coal, the dirtiest power source of all fossil fuels?, (iv) EVs are powered by lithium batteries, and require other “exotic” metals. Do a little research on the environmental load inherent in mining such minerals., (v) and finally, where are all the charging stations for people to use, who’s going to build them, and how long does charging an EV take???

          Only “environmentalist” watermelons like you could tout “renewable” power. It is inherently unreliable, not scalable, and has its own, quite significant, environmental loads. Now, if you want to talk modern nuke (pebble bed, thorium salt, etc.) reactors, you might be approaching sanity, but strangely, your lot of green Leftist/fascists never want to talk about reality, and your nuke derangement syndrome is second in virulence ONLY to your Trump Derangement Syndrome.

          Nice chat, dips***, learn a little science and come back when you grow up.

        • I saw in an online article the USA would have to build about 100 more nuclear power plants to provide electricity for the mass uptake of electric vehicles.

          And then you would have to upgrade the distribution grid too.

        • Southern,

          OK, now you’re being unfair – you’re trying to use facts and logic to debate MajorStupidity’s secular “religion” of Globull Warmening.

          No, MajorStupidity thinks we’re going to power the world (and all these new, super-green, “electric vehicles” with sun and wind . . . and magic rainbow unicorn farts.

          Look at the studies estimating the acreage required to create solar farms sufficient to power any significant portion of our electric grid. They aren’t “environmentalists”, they are ignorant (or deliberately deceptive, or both) “green” fascists, using “Gaia” as their predicate to control even more of our lives.

          As I’ve been saying, MajorStupidity is become a caricature of a Leftist/fascist – he is Titania McGrath writ large, without the wit, and he is obviously NOT a parody; he really believes this s*** (or at least convincingly pretends to).

        • Well doesn’t that make the batteries in “green friendly electric cars” exactly opposite of the “eco friendly” claim about electric cars?

      • Do we have any reliable understanding of how often birds encounter lead shot just lying about and eat it?

        This seems like a very far-fetched scenario.

  4. It’s all BS. It’s just for control from leftist.
    Same childish people who pretend lithium is “green” while ignoring the pool of toxic liquid left from production and can’t define women and that men can birth babies in their womb and who also believe climate doesn’t change without man’s help while visiting the petrified forest and harvesting dinosaur bones in Montana.
    It has nothing to do with saving anything and has everything to do with making it harder, more expensive and teaching acceptance of control in the name of “good” deemed by the controller.

    • “It’s all BS. It’s just for control from leftist.“

      Matt, in order for us to understand the basis of your comment, would you be kind enough to share with us where are you earned your degree in organic chemistry, thanks!

      “Hydrochloric acid in bird guts (the digestive ‘juices’) dissolves metallic lead into lead hydrochloride, which dissolves readily into water.”

      • Whether or not the actual chemical processes are correct is not really the issue: There is no question that lead conamination is NOT a problem with general American wildlife.

        If lead particles is gut piles or unrecovered game, ingested by eagles (for example), was a real problem we’d not have more nesting pairs in the US today than probably at any time in American history. Nor would the number of vultures, crows, ravens, magpies, gulls, and other carrion-foraging birds be as high as they are today- they all scarf up the same meat.

        The attempt at banning lead is a clear attempt to add more regulation and red tape to increase the cost to hunt and shoot. As these roadblocks are thrown in front of the public, people just drop out rather than have to comply or try to figure out what is, and is not, legal for them.

        The primary push for all of this is actually coming from the UN and major country pushing it at present is Germany. Add the various lead bans to the proposed, German-lead microstamping serialization of both projectiles and metallic casings and we’ll soon have ammo costs that will seem prohibitive for many hobby shooters. Certainly it will mark the end of legal handloading as well.

        This is an issue that needs to be monitored and Americans must insist that the US not sign off on any of the various ammunition treaties that are being pushed, again, by the UN and primarily Germany.

        (Looks like I struck a nerve- moderating this info?? C’mon, Dan…)

        • Craig,

          Don’t confuse the poor boy with facts; he still doesn’t even understand the narrative he’s been lying about for years.

          ANY competent, ethical hunter (or hiker/backpacker, or fisherman) is ten times the conservationist that watermelon idiots like MajorStupidity, dacian the demented et. al., will ever be. Just like with their political narrative, their “alternative” is hideously worse than what our economy was already in the process of doing BETTER than they will ever do it.

          The Green Nude Eel is just Cloward-Piven in “environmental” drag.

        • here, a box of standard ammo for my hunting rifle can be $18 to $30 dollars, non-lead ammo for the same gun is $49.99 and up
          Non-lead .22 LR, Fuggeht About It
          Cannot even find a box at any price, and it is Illegal to mail order it here.
          All part of the plan

  5. So Biden was better than Trump on guns or anything else correct??? That is why so many of you voted for Biden. Ok??? President Trump was a great defender of the 2A.

    Oh ya, the bump stock. The “gun community” has never supported the ownership of machine guns in the general public. But the rich will always have them. And criminals as well. And what about the NFA??? Just wait and you will see “gun people” come out of the woodwork to spread fear and terror about the repeal of the NFA.

    Most in the “gun community” are very comfortable with only the police and military being allowed to possess, openly carry, and use machine guns.

    The last defense of the 2A is for the states to pass laws that refuse to enforce federal guns laws. And pass laws to fire and prosecute any state or local cop who helps the feds.

    • “President Trump was a great defender of the 2A“

      “Or, Mike, take the firearms first and then go to court because that’s another system. Because a lot of times by the time you go to court, it takes so long to go to court, to get the due process procedures. I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida, he had a lot of [firearms], they saw everything. To go to court would have taken a long time. So, you could do exactly what you said but take the guns first, go through due process second.”
      -President Donald J. Trump, February 28, 2018

      • “President Trump was a great defender of the 2A“

        Yep! 🙂

        Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Coney-Barret, were appointed by Trump, who all voted to extend 2A rights outside the home, and who ruled most gun laws were unconstitutional, as you will soon discover as they begin to fall in domino fashion, all across this great land.

        It sure sucks to be you, Leftist Scum ™… 🙂

    • “The “gun community” has never supported the ownership of machine guns in the general public”

      You can stop there. The gun community has never asked you to speak for us.

      • Bravo Eric. 👏

        The NFA needs to be repealed wholecloth.

        The ATF (NFA division) received tens of millions of dollars (almost two years ago) to develop the E-Form system. They received these funds with THEIR ASSURANCE (ATF) that by the end of 2022 E-Form4 applications would be processed in under 90 days. They (ATF) committed to providing sufficient support (personnel) to achieve that 90day turnaround goal.

        Currently the ATF/ website (THEIR OFFICIAL WEBSITE FOR SUCH DATA) shows a 100 day turnaround on E-Form4 applications. Unadulterated BS!

        The FFLs I’ve spoken with here in Texas have told me that that current approvals being received are from FEBRUARY! OVER SIX MONTHS!

        My Eform4 wait is nearly six months, and still waiting.

        I’ve already downloaded/completed/returned the authorization form to have my state representative look into this BS. Made sure to point out the fact that ‘A right delayed is a right denied’ in my complaint. Six month wait and $200 tax for hearing protection is BS.

        But the ATF is door knocking and asking citizens to give up FRTs and solvent traps.

      • And that’s where you’re wrong. The 2nd A makes no distinction as to what type of firearms we can/cannot own. It says …”shall not be infringed”.
        We have the right to own fully auto and others if that is what we want.
        It’s the politicians that have ruled we cannot own certain types of firearms. They have infringed on our 2nd A right. Perhaps you should read the 2nd A again?

    • Well, from a really good post, Chris, you immediately devolved into this.

      First, you have no basis to purport to speak for the “gun community”, and you sure as HELL don’t speak for me. You goddamn right, if the government arms its minions with machine guns, I want them, too. There is literally NO REASON that police should be better armed than the people they are supposed to “serve and protect” (*snort, chuckle, guffaw*). Our original militias at Lexington and Concord, were armed with the same OR BETTER firearms than the Brits or the Continental Army. Americans holding “letters of margue and reprisal” manned ships with cannons (which they also owned).

      You are entitled to whatever belief you want about the 2A and what it “allows”, and I am entitled to mine. But don’t EVER purport to speak on my behalf. I can speak for myself, thankyouverymuch.

  6. Haven’t y’all serf trash learned yer lesson yet? This is yet another of the administrations rules for thee, but not for me. Siddown and shuddup, and do what you’re told. It’s for the greater good.

  7. Bovines, Ungulates, and Ruminants are a major source of Methane gas, a known ozone depleting greenhouse gas. All such animals should be immediately evicted from lands under the control of the US FWS.
    Don’t even get me started on fish poop !!

    • Supposedly a reporter asked WC Fields why didn’t he drink water instead of so much booze.

      Fields answer? “I don’t drink water because fish f*ck in it.”

      • “I don’t drink water because fish f*ck in it.”

        *Snicker*… 🙂

  8. This is what you get when the feds own the land. There’s no discernible difference between federal lands and English crown lands, other than they’re in two different countries. In both cases, you get the crumbs from your overlord’s table, even though you paid for everything.

    What a scam.

    • You are incorrect, regarding United States federal lands which are actually owned by the taxpayers, President Obama in 2009 signed the CARD act that opened up millions of acres of these lands to the lawful carrying of concealed weapons, under applicable state laws.

      The prohibition of carrying firearms on national lands was instituted by President Reagan, it took Democratic president Barack Hussein Obama to open these lands up to the second amendment.

      Ain’t no carrying firearms on the crown lands, I guess they need a freedom loving leader like President Barack Hussein Obama…

      Thanks, Obama!

      • Oh, blow it out your @$$, you pathetic progagandist. If it’s OUR land, why don’t we get to use it as WE choose? The rules you are touting where made by WHOM, exactly, Leftist/fascist liar??? By us?? Oh, hell no. By our “elected representatives”?? Not even close. By a bunch of UNELECTED and UNACCOUNTABLE idiot bureaucrat “experts” (whose “expertise” is a laughable joke, other than their ability to expertly parrot the narrative)??

        DING, DING, DING!!!!! Winner, winner, chicken dinner!! So just f*** off with your feeble, lying pretense that the people who actually USE the “US Federal Lands” had f***-all to say about the rules imposed on that use.

        OH, and cite me the SPECIFIC Constitutional authorization for the Federal government to own ONE SINGLE ACRE (outside of DC) of land. I’d be curious.

        Seriously, child, your descent into irrelevant, lying inanity is quite sad.

      • Typical boiler plate propaganda from whiner49er.

        So things never change.

        Have you signed up for a few Brian Stelter/Harvard courses on advanced propaganda yet?
        Seem to be an awesome career choice for a progtards such as yourself. When all your ‘chin diarrhea’ gets disproven, you get to fail up.

  9. Got me about #600 of lead, molds for everything, molds for worm weights. USFWS can suck my ass. I’m what they hate most, I can make my own shit.

  10. And when you get caught hunting or fishing with it on federal land?
    Your going to shit when they take your gunms, fishing gear, and vehicle that brought you there along with a big citation.
    No they like guys like you, it’s what keeps the money rolling in.

    • Haven’t so far, course don’t spend too much time on federal land. Lower hatchie River refuge just down the road, but I prefer private property. Never have had my tackle or ammunition checked.

      • Me neither.
        The future I’m afraid is the system will use e every infringing law it can to disarm America. .
        Turkey Vultures eating lead? Duck season here ain’t got many “buzzards ” flying around that time of year so I’d rule that out.
        What else would a buzzard eat? A rotten deer, now I dont know how many bullets wood bee ate by a buzzard eating a deer that got shot with a bullet, probably not many.
        So okay, I’ll go with the buzzards ate a moose that got shot and run off and died with a bullet or two stuck i in it.
        The buzzards eat the moose and die.
        What I’d like to know is what critters going to eat a dead buzzard. I mean it’s not like they’re just laying around everywhere.
        Nobody likes coyotes, so if coyotes are eating lead dead and dieng that’s a good thing, I guess.?
        The only place I think lead should be banned is the duck puddles. A lot of lead flys into them.
        Lead fishing sinkers. That’s a tough one, they work better then brass but theres enough sinkersthat busted off in this river here to sink the Edmund Fitzgerald. As a matter of fact most of the 100 and 200lb fish we catch around here are only 2 foot long, full of lead, gotta use big tackle to gettem off the bottom then you bust off another sinker cause the big tackle gets hung up in the rocks.
        Nope it’s just another bullshit law to Infringe on the Second Amendment
        of The Constitution .
        A human can make all the dominoes fall no matter where they tip over the first one, they just gotta stack them right.

  11. I wouldn’t use the CDC as a reference as they crapped all over themselves and even recently admitted it.

    who knows when the are telling the truth or telling a bought and paid for lie.

    • Center for Disease Control.
      . Mental Illness is a disease.

      “”!!! OH ,And theres a tremendous crash going into turn 3. That’s going to put them into a Red Flag pit stop until they can get that mess sorted out.
      And Now a word from our sponsor Robinett Icecream

  12. Just amazed at the stupidity of this subject. They are concerned about a few lead bullets? Meanwhile about 80% of the cars on American roads have numerous lead wheel weights, many that get flung off on the roadway or ditch. These morons are worried about a few bullets?

  13. Where does lead come from anyway? Oh, they dig it OUT OF THE GROUND. Hunters are just putting it back.

  14. Lead Shot was banned in Colorado sometime in the early 70’s, but it was a State sponsored restriction, not like the Federal ban in 1991. At that time, CO Fish and Game went after everybody, not just the Duck and Goose hunters. I was a teen and can remember my Dad boxing everything up and we sent it to an uncle in another state. all through the 70’s and into the 80’s, steel shot was all we used for pheasant and grouse.

    We stopped bird hunting in the late 80’s when older family members sold off their farms. New owners were dead set against hunters/hunting.

  15. Control of everything people do and use, is control of the people. Take off the blinders and see what is really going on.

      • PS: Glad I have thousands of rounds of ammo, both shotgun and pistol and rifle that are good old lead core ammo. And I will use them or give them to others.

  16. Organic chemistry? What’s organic about it? Not the lead, nor the acid. And why does someone need a chemistry degree to see that this is largely b.s.? I think that’s called the “Appeal to authority,” where only a person with some credential or supposed expertise can have the answer.

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