New Jersey Second Amendment Society president Alexander P. Roubian writes [via Ammoland.com]
It is not every week that you get contacted by two pastors who want a concealed carry permit to protect themselves and their church. With a rise in violence targeting churches and religious groups do you blame them? Watch our video story on Chasing News below. When I was contacted by Pastor Kevin Bernat and Pastor Jeff Kovach two weeks ago, I honestly did not know what to think. They told me about their insane experiences in dealing with the New Jersey gun laws and how local authorities would make up rules which clearly violate NJ statutes. What is even crazier . . .
is how they were being told to call the police if anything ever happens. Imagine that a criminal goes into a church while service is being conducted, starts stabbing and killing people, and the pastor should just call the police. If that is not the definition of insanity, then I do not know what is. I for one know that when God cannot deliver us from evil, I am certain that my Springfield 45 will! You may recall the story of Michael Tumminelli, the DOD employee who has had multiple credible threats against his life and family. Watch the story here. What we are building here is evidence that no matter your background or circumstance, nobody will ever get a concealed carry permit in New Jersey.
New Jersey Second Amendment Society – Our mission is to promote the free exercise of Second Amendment rights within the community and Legislature of New Jersey, to educate the community regarding the enjoyable, safe, and responsible use of firearms, and to engender a sense of camaraderie and fellowship among the members and their families. Visit: www.nj2as.com
Separation of Church and State, dead. Shall not be infringed, dead.
This calls for immediate discussion…
This calls for immediate secession…
Secession is a one option. Revolution is a better one. I say it’s time to borrow a page from the French and break out the Guillotines.
Anybody who has ever voted in favor of any gun control bill after swearing to uphold the CotUS gets to the front of the line.
Anybody know where we can get a few truckloads of wicker baskets?
Pier 1 probably.
The French Revolution is probable the last “revolution” we want to replicate. It only stopped because the movement ran out of victims to kill. The resulting political power vacuum allowed, essentially, Napoleon to rise in power.
“The revolution devour its own children.” -Jacques Mallet du Pan
I have long made the argument that the American Revolution wasn’t really a conventional revolution per say, because the original goal wasn’t to create a new form of government. It was trying to protect the existing liberties the colonies long possessed before the English crown, due to commerce and war, wanted to clamp down for her own benefits.
Completely new motion?
Yes, completely new. Because all this talk is just a waste of time……
Some of us are old enough…..
And if Christie is elected President, our whole nation may end up like NJ. (regardless of what he says about his support for gun rights)
I was born in NJ and can’t stand it as much as anyone, and i have no love for Christie at all
but the gun control regime in place in that hell hole is not his fault at all.
And he’s doing NOTHING to change it.
what’s he gonna do? he’s not dictator of the state.
the state legislature there is so packed full of the biggest moonbat wackadoo democrats, the situation is hopeless unless the electorate changes drastically.
” biggest moonbat wackadoo democrats”
We’ve got a shipload of them here too.
I’m in love again, third time today!
I always did like purple.
Why does a pastor need a concealed carry permit inside his church? It is his business, isn’t it?
I’m wondering how the business license is written up, and is the pastor considered an employee, manager, or business owner, if he has an interest in the business.
I guess I never thought of a church being a business??
“Why does a pastor need a concealed carry permit inside his church? It is his business, isn’t it?”
Further, can the pastor designate members of his flock to carry the same way Dirk’s pastor authorized him and others?
I was thinking along the same lines. If it is his building or he is in a management /ll leadership role in the church shouldn’t be be able to do what he wants in his building? The church is private property and one doesn’t need a permit to carry on private property unless you do in NJ.
I don’t know what the law is in New Jersey, but in Delaware, the law that prohibits concealed carry without a permit does not provide any exception for home or work. It would not surprise me if it’s the same way in New Jersey.
(That said, I can open carry in most places in Delaware without a permit. Delaware’s law needs some fixing, but is not anywhere close to as bad as New Jersey.)
Check the NJ laws on CC. Some states have laws against CCW-holders carrying in churches, places with liquor licenses, or any old place with a sign, etc (my state repealed that, fortunately), so even if they did have licenses they might not be able to use them in their own church.
Just goes to show how little the police care about citizens. Examine their incentive structure because they are responding to it.
The police didn’t make the laws. The easily panicked sheep have encouraged politicians to do all this crap. We’re so densely populated, everyone expects the government to do everything for them including providing safety.
The police make laws whenever they choose to not exercise discretion and instead blindly follow immoral orders. I may be mistaken but I think the clerks at Auschwitz made similar claims to innocence?
Of course the police don’t make the law. Unless you consider police unions leaning on lawmakers to support or oppose laws to be part of the lawmaking process.
Psalm 23:4English Standard Version (ESV)
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,[a]
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
Rod and staff sound like defensive weapons to me. In fact, the shepherds of old would use these items to ward off any threats that may attack their flock.
Ironic self-defense is mentioned in both the Constitution and the Bible, and even if you choose to ignore the glaring Church/State issue, the constitutional infringement is doubly clear here.
I prefer the 1812 version of that psalm.
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil,
For I am riding sixty metric tons of f4ck you.
“Forget about it, Jake. It’s New Jersey.”
Didn’t ‘The Blues Brothers’ take place in Illinois?
Wrong reference. Older movie with Jack Nicholson.
And it took place in LA! And had Faye Dunaway! And a little guy who looks like he might have non-consensual sex with 13 year olds! And saltwater ponds! And Jack Huston! And Jack Nicholson slapping Faye Dunaway repeatedly! And $10 million dollars was a lot of money in the setting!
I prefer the Long Kiss Goodnight version:
I got myself out of Beirut, I think I can get out of New Jersey.
Don’t be so sure. Others have tried and failed. The whole population in fact.
my NJ story, before i moved:
Circa 2006, walk into the Cranford PD station to get the paperwork to apply for a FOID or whatever the hell they call it. Approach the clown working the desk and ask, his immediate response is “What do YOU need a gun for?”
the paperwork was ridiculous. it wanted references and needed to be notarized. needless to say i never bothered filling it out.
that state blows. and its beaches are overrated!
I’ve seen cesspools in Iraq with banks that were cleaner than New Jersey beaches.
The beaches are actually some of the best on the east coast, unfortunately they have people on them. I had a co-worker back when I lived there (born and raised in north NJ) who had applied for his permit to buy a gun. The police department kept losing his application. What should have taken no more than 90 days took almost a year and a half! Absolutely ridiculous, but the police hold a lot of power thanks to political patronage.
i used to think the NJ beaches were ok.
Then i went to Seabrook Island off the coast of Charleston. You could wade out a hundred yards and only be in waist deep water that was the perfect temperature.
In NJ, the beaches are so eroded you are over your head 10 feet off shore, the water is cold until september when its then swimming with jellyfish.
I had a less troubling experience, shortly after the Newark riots. Nobody in his right mind would ask “Why?”. Delay was minimal, even though there was a stack of “Permit to Purchase” applications. A lot depends on the circumstances, and the “disposition” of the issuing authority. The same guy who got those permits processed post-haste, told me that he threw out an application for a second pistol permit I left for him on his desk months later, because that was “his policy”. I recall I told him I could eliminate half my workload if I could do that on my job. I then corrected myself, and said that “policy” would eliminate all of my workload — I would be fired.
Jesus told the disciples they should buy swords, and there were two; He said it was enough. So by Jesus’ measure, one in six members of the flock being armed is about right. So this shouldn’t just be the pastors, it should be the elders, the deacons, the ushers, and enough others to get the proportion to one in six.
How to fight this? They need someone to fund a printing of a good history of the Deacons for Defense, the backbone of the ’60s Civil Rights movement, and get it distributed: donate it to churches, schools, and definitely to every single politician in the state.
And then one Sunday, every church in the state should have a “bring your arms to church” day. The Old Testament reading for the day should be from Nehemiah, where everyone working to build the city wall carried a weapon; the Psalm for the day should be 82, with verse 4 repeated as the refrain (“Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.”); the Gospel reading would be Luke 22:36-38, which I referenced above. I can’t think of any good passage from the Epistles to go along, but there are a number that could be used depending on the preacher’s approach to the subject — I’d go with the one where Paul says to consider others as more important than yourself, which is a good point in terms of placing yourself in a position to defend others. Someone creative could write a brief ritual for blessing the weapons for the purpose of protecting the innocent and weak.
For daring churches, they could write the use of arms for protecting the flock, and the innocent and weak, into their statements of belief, at which point any state interference with members of the church carrying weapons at church especially would run right up against the free exercise clause.
New Jersey – 9 million residents, sixteen hundred licenses to carry.
Pennsylvania – 12 and a half million residents, ONE MILLION FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND licenses to carry.
Arizona: Population 6.7M, 6.7M “licenses” to carry. 😉
Here in AL, I currently train 3 armed church security teams, with another to start in Novenber, and 2 more considering starting them. I teach the Bible and self defense for 2 hours on Friday, and go 7 hours on Saturday on the law of self defense and defense of others, trespass laws, and psycho-physiological effects of violence.
Law enforcement and the CIA have known since 1998 from radical Islamist websites that churches are prime targets. In addition, many folks with mental problems see the church as their last hope and stop before the asylum. If they don’t get what they want from the church, some will blame the church, and try to take violent revenge. Armed security is a must in this climate.
OK Joisey is officially way worse than Chiraq. I do think the CC thing is for walking outside. I know in Illinois(and Chicago) getting a CC or carrying on your business property is legal. Fight the power…
Since the feds won’t allow the states to deport the illegal aliens on their own, I propose that every time we catch one when the feds say to release them, we put them on one way flights to New Jersey. That way the rest of the states export the crime that comes with those folks and by sending them to New Jersey the attendant crime increase there will encourage them to fix the laws. Or not, in which case who cares.
You’re in NJ, lots of cops are at your beckon call. Ask your assailant to hold still. Remember, until cops arrive in NJ, time slows, physics breakdown, and bullets slow to a crawl.
NJ is a police state, right? Sweet dreams!
If Jesus made sure the disciples had swords prior to leaving the last supper for the garden of Gethsemane, Jesus is a fan of self-defense with lethal force.
Didn’t know they allowed pastors in New Jersey.
At this point, in states like New Jersey … I think pastors who have this problem should simply ignore the law and carry anyway.
Better to be able to protect yourself/congregation than see yourself/them killed because you were obeying the law.
This doesn’t surprise me because communist governments don’t believe in religion.