Kel-Tec has made some pretty significant changes to its folding 9mm pistol caliber carbine, the SUB-2000, now releasing a Gen 2 version. Despite the additional features and upgrades, it’s apparently easier to manufacture and production is doubling, so this truck gun favorite seems to be improving.
Also new and already beginning to ship out is the Kel-Tec CMR-30, the matching carbine to the PMR-30 pistol in 22WMR. I’m excited to get my hands on one of those as soon as possible, as I own a PMR-30 (review here) and six mags, an AAC Element 2 suppressor, and almost 1,000 rounds of .22 WMR so I’m ready to put it to the test! Gen2 SUB-2000 and CMR-30 video tours with Kris from Kel-Tec, plus some photos and highlights follow. . .
Kel-Tec SUB-2000 Gen2 Semi-Automatic Changes:
- Front sight accepts AR-15 front sight posts, is adjustable for windage and elevation, and removes to expose 1/2×28 barrel threads on 9mm versions and 9/16×24 on .40 S&W.
- New handguard with top and bottom rails plus Magpul M-LOK slots on the sides
- 40% larger ejection port
- The Gen2 Sub2k has a more ergonomic grip
- 3-position adjustable buttstock
- More sling attachment options
- When folded, it’s locked on the Picatinny rail rather than the front sight post
- Addition of version for M&P magazines
- Better safety detent
- Production volume up from 200-300 per week to 500-700 units
- Short top Picatinny rail for red dots; fiber optic sights available
- MSRP $450-$500
Kel-Tec SUB-2000 Gen2 Specs
Caliber: 9x19mm or .40 S&W, blowback operation
Weight Unloaded: 4.25 lbs.
Magazine Capacity: Varies by magazine; accepts extended versions of Glock mags
Overall Length: 30.5 inches
Length Collapsed: 29.25 inches
Length Folded: 16.25 inches
Barrel Length: 16.25 inches
Twist Rate: 1:10 or 1:16
Trigger Pull: 9.5 lbs.
Kel-Tec CMR-30 Notable Features:
- It weighs just 3.8 lbs. Felt incredibly light and maneuverable
- Same 30rd 22 Magnum polymer ammo mags as the Kel-Tec PMR-30, which employ a pretty novel design.
- Ambi, non-reciprocating charging handles.
- 1/2×28 threaded barrel, barrel length of 16 inches
- Comes with Magpul MBUS
- 4-position collapsible stock
- “Ever so fantastic”
I asked Kris if it was accurate enough to justify me slapping on that new 6-24×50 LUCID scope that I picked up and shooting it from a rest for groups at 50 or 100 yards. An enthusiastic “oh absolutely!” was the response, so I’ll definitely be doing that for the review with 3 or 4 brands of .22 WMR from Remington, Winchester, and others on the wishlist.
Kel-Tec CMR-30 Specs
Weight Unloaded: 3.8 lbs.
Magazine Capacity: 30
Overall Length: 29.9 inches
Length Collapsed: 22.5 inches
Length Folded: 16.25 inches
Barrel Length: 16 inches
Twist Rate: 1:14
Trigger Pull: 5 lbs.
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It’s about time; they revealed that .22 mag carbine roughly 4 or 5 years ago.
No msrp on the .22 mag?
That means 1500 on gunbroker.
I think the query was about the rifle, not the ammo.
I wonder if the CMR 30 will have all the (serious) problems that the pistol has ….. Including exploding barrels. From everything I have read online, these guns will never be reliable enough for any self defense scenario. Which is a shame since I think both pistol and carbine are uber-cool.
The Sub 2000 in 9 mm with Glock mags would be my choice, hands down.
Everyone I know with a PMR 30 loves it. I think (like most Kel Tec products) there were some bugs they had to work out the first 6 months of shipping.
Yeah they did do a barrel redesign that made the gun more reliable. Although I have never heard of explosions, there were certainly issues with some of them running well. I own a V1, though, and put like 400 rounds through it with a couple of FTEjects before e-mailing Kel-Tec when I found out there was a new, improved barrel. They had it in the mail to me the next day along with a few other parts. No charge. No questions asked other than what my serial number was. I didn’t have to return the old barrel. Was pretty happy about that. It has run flawlessly with the new barrel ever since. The pistol has been highly reliable for me and it’s a ton of fun to shoot. Good trigger, too.
That said, I wouldn’t use it for defensive purposes because I don’t trust rimfire ammo. The only times my PMR has stopped was with dud rounds. I think maybe 3 or 4 times I came across rounds with no primer in the rim. This is way, way less as a percentage than I find with .22 LR, but it still happens. So RE your comment that these guns will never be reliable enough for self defense, I’d say NO rimfire (at least .22 LR and .22 WMR… there are some with thicker rims that might be better) is thanks to the ammo, not the gun.
I’m glad I waited for a Sub2K so that now I can really wait for Sub2K 2.0.
And now I can also wait for the CMR30.
Actually, since I’ll probably never get my hands on either, I think I’ll just wait for the CMR30.
less consternation than waiting for both.
You may have to keep waiting… It is keltec, I have never seen a sub 2k or pmr in the wild and I go to a lot of gunships. They probably sell faster than they can even put them into a display case. I want a 6906 and had thought that the version 1 with smith mags would be good, both use 5906 mags, but now that M&P mags are coming……
Agreed on both the (non) availability and on the M&P mag version. I was very flexible on mag version (Glock, Sig, Beretta), but could never find one (well, I did see one at $350 over MSRP, no thanks). I’ve got a metric ton of mags for any of the above, and adding the M&P to the mix works fine for me as well.
no fan of gunbroker, but there are like 100 Gen 1 sub 2000 on there; for pretty decent prices right now (purge selling)
I have never seen one in the “real world” either. I purchased a Glock .40 version from a buddy of mine; paid $600 cash for the gun, seven 22 rd factory Glock mags, 2 10 rd factory Glock mags, 200rds of ball ammo, 50rds of HPs, and a bugout bag to put it all in. After doing a quick cost analysis, I deemed that I had a “spare” $600 to spend on something so cool and unique. The thing doesn’t even have 1,000 rounds through it yet, so I consider it a fair deal. Unfortunately, I still have a few hundred bucks to sink into it, making it even “cooler” and a bit more quiet. I can say that it is a blast to shoot, and those .40 cal rounds got some grease on ’em….I blew a few arms off the steel paddle targets at a local range. Loads of fun!
Your post reminds me of something I used to say about the day-to-day aftermath of the City of Houston’s annexation of a previously unincorporated part of Harris County: now the City doesn’t fill the potholes that the County used to not fill.
I wonder how much the Gen2 Sub2k’s will get scalped for…
Sometimes I hate the gun community.
Sheesh. Nobody says you have to buy it.
That’s not a fault of the “gun community”, it’s a basic feature of free market economics, regardless of the commodity being bought and sold. Scarcity increases price. If you want to hate anyone, hate Kel-Tec for not making enough guns to meet demand. If every gun shop had ten Sub2K’s in the back room, there’d be no market for the resellers to charge such prices.
There’s a difference between supply and demand driving up prices and dealers buying them $100 above MSRP from more honest shops and then listing them on GB for $400 above msrp. The first transaction should make it to end user without taking advantage of the situation. It’s like those a-holes who would line up at Walmart every Tuesday morning at 4:55AM to clear the .22lr and sell it instantly for a 3x profit.
The gun community is the first to turn on each other in the name of a quick buck. And that’s what I don’t like.
you are complaining about something that manifests itself in every market, from “gray market” Omega watches at Costco to sporting events and concert tickets. When there is a profit to be made from buying and reselling, it WILL happen. Stop complaining about it.
I think the economics term is “price allocation function of markets”, but somone who took economics more recently can correct me if that’s the wrong term.
“There’s a difference between supply and demand driving up prices and dealers buying them $100 above MSRP from more honest shops and then listing them on GB for $400 above msrp.”
Actually, they’re the same thing. The “gouging” you dislike is one mechanism by which supply-and-demand drives up prices. There are people who are buying Sub2K’s and PMR’s and other guns at 150% or 200% of MSRP. That’s the market signaling that either the supply or the MSRP is too low for the existing demand.
I agree 100% Stinkeye, but face it: there is a LARGE contingent of gun owners who feel as though the economic laws of supply and demand either don’t or shouldn’t apply to them. It’s classic entitlement mentality, which is ironic seeing as how most of these same people will complain about entitlement mentality in other contexts. They’re simply blind to their own entitlement mentality. Folks, you are never owed or entitled to a certain price on someone else’s property. If you don’t like their asking price, don’t buy. Free markets…how do they work again???
To me this sounds like a sweet survival combo. The PMR-30 weighs nothing (13 oz), the CMR-30 weighs nothing (3.8 lbs), the magazines are light as a feather (1.6 oz unloaded, 6 oz loaded to 30), the ammo is incredibly light, and the CMR collapses to a really small length. I only have 6 mags now, but if I buy a CMR I suppose that’ll likely come with 2 so that’s 8 total… loaded that’s 240 rounds in mags. Another 500 rounds only weighs 4.6 lbs and doesn’t take up much space, either.
I think the only downside is that the pistol won’t operate with a suppressor on it. Well and rimfire ammo isn’t super reliable. I’ve always had much better success with .22 WMR than with .22 LR for whatever reason, but have still run into a couple duds that appeared to have no primer in the rim. I’d have a hard time staking my life on any firearm in .22 WMR for this sole reason, regardless of how good the gun itself was. Of course, I’ve had as many dud primers with centerfire rounds as well, but they were all steel-cased Russian pistol rounds.
The CMR30 would make a good survival rifle a la a bush gun, a small, light rifle chambered in a small, light round that can be used to kill small animals for food should the need arise. As a self defense gun? I dont think so, not for me. But to each their own.
I think the caliber is sufficient. Especially with the capacity and how quickly and accurately it can be fired. But again, I don’t trust rimfire primer reliability enough. I’d consider these for the zombie apocalypse though. I mean, in that scenario it has to be head shots anyway, right? CMR from the rooftop, baby. A couple thousand rounds weighs under 20 lbs, with the accuracy and energy to reach out a couple hundred yards (.22 WMR has more energy at 100 yards than .22 LR at the muzzle). The PMR on the hip, CMR on a sling combo has to be the ideal zombie setup*. The PMR even has a mount for an optic so run a small reflex sight on that and a scope on the CMR and you’ve got it covered. 30 rounds in each plus like 10 loaded mags on your person and you’ll keep that zombie hoard at bay 😉
BTW Kris in the videos there said he’s been hog hunting with his CMR for a couple months now. Head shots = instantly deceased porkers.
*possibly it’s the Five-seveN and PS90, depending on one’s budget and how much ammo is owned. That ammo would be a lot harder to find in the wild, I’d guess, than .22 WMR though (although obviously at this moment .22 mag is pretty scarce still, it hasn’t been historically).
22WMR out of a 16″ Barrel likely trumps the 5.7, so yeah, sounds like a winner to me!
Like any model change, maybe old used sub2k’s will flood the market. Maybe we will see gen1 going for $250
At an March IL auction, a sub2k went for $225, declared as NIB.
I might actually consider buying a Kel-Tec for once.
Same, except you’ll never find one. The cool rifles / carbines that they make and everyone wants, they produce about 20 per year. The crappy pistols that no one wants, they churn out thousands per week. I’ll never understand the thought process of the people running that company….
Yeah, that does seem to be the Kel-Tec way.
That, and “our engineer really wishes he was designing a waffle iron”.
Quick quiz: Kel-Tec branded waffle irons: is there a market?
Sure, if you don’t mind waiting two years and getting your waffles on BreakfastBroker.
If only they would make a 9mm carbine with the looks of the CMR30…the sub-2000 is really freaking fugly.
I agree the CMR-30 is better looking, and if they could come up with a way to make the Sub2k look something like the CMR-30 AND still fold in half, that would be awesome.
I would settle for an entirely separate model for 9mm that looks identical to the CMR30. All of the 9mm carbines out in the US currently dont look appealing to my eyes. The CMR30 looks really slick, but Id prefer to have it in one of the calibers I already own.
I don’t disagree.
That CMR30 looks really nice, especially that collapsing stock. Might make a nice replacement for my 10/22 TD bug out bag gun. Wonder if Keltec will make enough for them to actually show up in stores and online?
Sub-2000 is all about form following function. It’s as ugly as it needs to be so light and compact.
Now if only the new Sub-2k took CZ magazines…
The Sig version also happens to take CZ mags. The downside is I’m not aware of a reliable 30+ round CZ or Sig P226 mag.
The ProMag 30-rounder actually works pretty darn well IF you put a factory CZ or a MecGar follower in it (or I’m sure the CZ Custom follower would be great). The mag body and spring seem to be just fine, but the ProMag follower is junk. I do like the blue MG ones with the “anti friction coating” on them, and have had a ProMag stick running totally fine since the day I swapped the follower out for that one (and it refused to function prior to that).
There’s also a factory CZ 26-round magazine for the standard (not Tactical Sports) 75 frames: http://czcustom.com/CZ-75-CZ-85-9mm-26-Rounds.aspx
CZ produces factory 26 rounders for the 75 series, I believe they are for open competitions. They work extremely well
Thanks, I had never seen those 26 rounders.
I don’t know about the new ones, but the old ones did that – it’s the version that was labeled as S&W 59 compatible. I have one and run it side by side with my CZ-75 and mags exchange perfectly (both original CZ 18-rounders that came with my SP-01, and aftermarker Mec-Gar 16-, 17- and 19- rounders)
Is the CMR30 (with a limited magazine capacity instead) kommiefornia legal? Not sure if its considered a pistol or a rifle?
It is absolutely a rifle, and because it’s a rimfire caliber it’s exempt from most or all of the “assault weapons” legislation. You’ll still have to stick to 10-round mags, and may want to double check any CA minimum overall length laws, but I think you’re GTG on it.
It’s unfortunately a short barrel rifle in CA. Need to permanently block the rifle to a minimum length of 26″, vice the 22.5″ that it is natively. Also need to get 10 rd magazines. Other than that, though, it’s good to go
To expand on it just a little, both California’s own short barreled rifle laws and the Federal NFA law say 26″ minimum overall length. But Fed law counts with the stock fully extended* and CA law counts with the stock fully collapsed or folded. No exemption for rimfire calibers here.
*in most cases; the exception being a stock that’s “easily removed” like on a quick release…
The most important change they could make in the Sub 2k, imho, would be to stop it from spitting hot grit into left-handers’ faces. I wonder if the altered ejection port will help that.
Oooh that’s a tough one. Blowback actions aren’t ideal if you want to prevent unburned powder and gasses and whatnot from leaving through the ejection port. You may need to jerry rig yourself some sort of brass deflector deal, shoot with a face shield on, or, better yet, just shoot the rifle upside down 😉
I tried shooting it upside down, but the blood kept rushing to my head. 😉
I like my Sub2k, but would happily upgrade to the new one. If I could.
I wonder how the new Magpul G17 mags will run in the S2K. I also wonder if Magpul will make long stick Mags…
I want one. V 2.0 looks to be better than 1.0.
Between the Mech Tech and the Gen2 Sub2k, which would you pair with a Glock 9mm?
They’re pretty darn different, honestly. The MT has some advantages like it isn’t a firearm so it can ship right to your door, and it’s readily available. It’s also metal and pretty stout and reliable and very solidly built. And very accurate. You can do more customization with the AR stock adapter and all of the rail options. The SUB2K has advantages as well, of course, in that it’s lighter, it folds in half, it is a complete firearm so you could use your G19 and the SUB2K at the same time (whereas on the MT you put your Glock frame onto it so your pistol is out of commission at that time… although you could buy just a Glock assembled frame on gunbroker for like $170), it now has a factory-threaded barrel, etc. I think it’s handier for a pack rifle but it does feel more like a survival gun whereas the MT feels solid like a true rifle. The Sub2k is plenty accurate though for sure.
So… they’re different.
Thanks for the reply. If the Gen2 is built as poorly as the Gen1 was reported to be, I think it’s a no brainer. But if the build quality is up to snuff and the price is kept low, the Sub2k would make the perfect trunk gun. Either one is better than a $1000 9mm AR, that’s for sure.
Not sure how this “beats” a $1000 9mm ar?
$1k will get you a quality glock-mag 9mm ar from the likes of oly, lone wolf or qc10. Theyre all durable, accurate & upgradeable. And they’re not vaporware. A $500 “list price” means $800 unless you’re willing to kiss balls at your lgs to get one of the two sub 2k’s they get a year. And, in the end, you’ll have an $800 barbie gun instead of a real, proven ar9.
You can get a gen-1 Sub-2000 right now for under $500 online. It’ll take Glock mags, too, and you’ll have an option of 9mm or .40. It’ll weigh at least one pound less than your AR, most likely more two pounds less (4 lbs unloaded). And it’ll fold in half – down to 16″ – for compact storage, and can be unfolded and ready to be used in under two seconds; try that with an AR.
Finally they are adding M&P magazines!! That has been the main reason I have not been willing to buy a Sub-2000.
If only someone would finally start making 22 and 29 round magazines for M&P40 handguns like the 22 and 29 round magazines for Glocks!
Me too! I’ve been begging for it!
Right price, right gun, right caliber, right magazine.
I was about to modify the mag catch on the model 59 version to work with the m&p mags, but is will be much more durable!
I’m wondering why they didn’t change the charging handle’s locking position to the left. I have a sub 2k, and trying to lock the bolt open is just a bit awkward. I think it would be better if you could pull the bolt back and then pull to the left to lock it open, rather than pulling and then pushing it right.
Meh. Give me the RDB.
I played with both versions at the KT booth at SHOT, and it’s definitely super cool but it’ll have to become widely available for me to think it’s a good deal. MSRP is one hundred bucks less than you can find a Tavor for at a good sale price (close to $1,700). Now I know (and I harass people for this all the time) that comparing the MSRP from one company to the low street price from another is totally bogus, but with the historical scarcity of some of the KT products it can be hard to find them as low as MSRP and often the market is actually demanding a premium above and beyond MSRP. If I’m looking at a very similar price between a Tavor and an RDB it would be a tough sell to make me go RDB. That really isn’t a knock on the RDB, as it seemed quite nice, but the Tavor has a really solid rep for a good reason and it’s an amazing firearm.
So does the gen 2 sub2k come in the .40 glock version? Otherwise I’m gonna stick to my gen 1. Also… does the gen2 come standard with the picatinny rails?
I watched the video, my questions were answered, I am now selling a gen 1 sub2k lol gotta get the gen 2.
Keltec sure makes some amazing and innovative products, but you can only look at them on the internet. In all my years I’ve never seen a single one of their products at a range or shop. It’s hard for me to get hyped anymore knowing I’ll never ever see one of these guns.
You can buy virtually any Kel-Tec gun on GunBroker, and that has been the case for anything that they’ve actually released to date. The only question is how much you’re willing to pay, but that’s an issue different from availability.
I bought a sub2000 for 350 bucks new in 2012. I sold it 2 months before Newtown. I haven’t seen one in the wild since then. I would buy the new one especially in 40. Great ballistics out of a 16inch barrel. 22mag is pretty hot too…
I’ve been vacillating between a vintage 10-22 .22 mag and an excel arms .22 mag.
I think I just changed my mind.
Darn you Jeremy!
Hahaha what’s wrong with that? There’s also the CZ 512 Tactical in .22 mag (and likely other configs of the 512) and there is or used to be a Remington 597 chambered for it also. And others, I’m sure…
200-300 units a week? I want whatever they’re smoking if they think those are honest numbers. My guess would be 2-3 dozen a week, MAYBE 200 a month.
KelTec step up your game and produce enough of the SUB 2000s!
got me a gen 2 for 500 plus tax. Woo hoo!
Glad I held off on the gen 1s. Suspect the gen2s will be ~$400 by 2016 if we don’t have another Newtown before then. I’ll be a buyer, come the new year.
Just bought a sub2k 9mm glock mag pattern brand spanking new for $395 here in Indiana at one two gun shops I frequent (Meeks guns). I got the last 9mm but they had four of the 40 s&w left in glock mag pattern…they were all $395…went to high school with owner and his prices are always fair…it is a sweet rig! 33 round glock mags and blast away!
Well guys, I have 4 pmr30’s (had 6 sold one to a buddy and trade one for a glock 23c, 250 rounds of ammo,a lazerlyte sight mount, holster and 100 bucks cash. 3 have been fired), a gen 1 sub2000 glock 9mm (had 2 sold one) an excel arms 22 mag, and just bought the gen 2 sub2000 glock 40 for 439.oo. Love the kel-tec guns. The excel arms is very picky on ammo, loves armscor ammo the best. My kel-tec is one of my carry guns.people on forums always ask why carry a 22 mag…number one, it’s light and you forget it’s there, 2..And number 1, 30 rounds people. If the first one doesn’t get you, there’s 29 more coming at you. Number 3..it will go thru a class 2 vest and into ballistic gel. Did I mention 30 rounds. With an extra 2 clips on me, that’s 90 rounds all around 3 lbs total. Bad guy better bring a Snickers, he’s gonna be there awhile eating lead appetizers. I really need the cmr too. I have six ruger 10/22’s, every configuration they’ve made so far and a Henry golden boy lever action 22 mag (28yrs old never been fired). Needless to say, I love rimfire guns. I have many others including a calico m100 (spaceballs the movie) pistol (also the 9mm pistol and carbine versions). So oddball guns are my passion and kel-tec makes great ones. Believe me, you won’t be disappointed in any of them. Kel-tec 380 p3at is my pocket gun over my ruger lcp380 due to having 2 extra 10 rounds mags for it (or was till I just bought my sig p938 9mm). So what is my point? Get some kel-tecs, you’ll love them. No matter the price, you won’t regret getting one. And I have cz’s, glock’s, s&w, ruger, excel arms, high point, calico, Springfield arms, rock island, para, and many other brands, I can’t recall, in both pistol and rifle/ar styles. Most have never been fired. But they’re all mechanical and any of them can have flaws and problems. Send them back and get them fixed, simple as that. Kel-tec stand behind their products.
Well guys, I have 4 pmr30’s (had 6 sold one to a buddy and trade one for a glock 23c, 250 rounds of ammo,a lazerlyte sight mount, holster and 100 bucks cash. (3 have never been fired), a gen 1 sub2000 glock 9mm (had 2 sold one) an excel arms 22 mag, and just bought the gen 2 sub2000 glock 40 for 439.oo. Love the kel-tec guns. The excel arms is very picky on ammo, loves armscor ammo the best. My kel-tec is one of my carry guns.people on forums always ask why carry a 22 mag…number one, it’s light and you forget it’s there, 2..And number 1, 30 rounds people. If the first one doesn’t get you, there’s 29 more coming at you. Number 3..it will go thru a class 2 vest and into ballistic gel. Did I mention 30 rounds. With an extra 2 clips on me, that’s 90 rounds all around 3 lbs total. Bad guy better bring a Snickers, he’s gonna be there awhile eating lead appetizers. I really need the cmr too. I have six ruger 10/22’s, every configuration they’ve made so far and a Henry golden boy lever action 22 mag (28yrs old never been fired) a lever action 22lr made in 1897 and my dad’s first 22 lever action single shot (crackshot) he paid 50 cents for. Needless to say, I love rimfire guns. I have many others including a calico m100 (spaceballs the movie) pistol (also the 9mm pistol and carbine versions). So oddball guns are my passion and kel-tec makes great ones. Believe me, you won’t be disappointed in any of them. Kel-tec 380 p3at is my pocket gun over my ruger lcp380 due to having 2 extra 10 rounds mags for it (or was till I just bought my sig p938 9mm). So what is my point? Get some kel-tecs, you’ll love them. No matter the price, you won’t regret getting one. And I have cz’s, glock’s, s&w, ruger, excel arms, high point, calico, Springfield arms, rock island, para, dpms, seiga and many other brands, I can’t recall, in both pistol and rifle/ar styles. Most have never been fired. But they’re all mechanical and any of them can have flaws and problems. Send them back and get them fixed, simple as that. Kel-tec stand behind their products.
I just purchased a sub 2000 just 3 hours ago. I also walked away from a Cmr 30, all those 12 gauge keltecs, a 1st Gen Su-16 ( which is why I came there anyway, but I needed the su-16c version) the other store had a PMR30 , so I guess maybe I hit a Good fishing spot or things have ramped up at Cocoa, Fla.!
I paid $400 for my .40 Glock 1st gen sub2000. Had it about 2 years and absolutely love it. Wanted to thread the barrel and replace the sights. Started looking around and found a new gen2 for $375 on arms list! Great sights and comes with a threaded barrel. Couldn’t be happier.