LAPD Releases Video of Shooting That Killed a Bystander in a Woman’s Dressing Room

1. But but but bike lock! Those brave po-lice were facing a dreaded bike lock. And a 14 year girl is dead…

   • It was also reported by a witness that he had a gun. Another tradgedy brought on by a criminal.

     • Video and evidence in video did not display any firearm and only the bicycle lock. Also officer in video simply turned the corner of the shelf and shot the guy twice without issuing any commands. Bad shoot in my opinion.

       • This cop couldn’t wait to get the Patrol Rifle into play. He could hardley contain himself rushing down the aisle and was told several times to “slow down”. I saw a Sgt there who should have been doing more leading and giving orders instead of following the other officers. Lack of leadership for one. Cop sees suspect and just shoots him. No verbal commands. No firearm seen on the perp. Rifle had a optic site. In a short distance, how does one shoot into the floor.
         What I see is a breakdown in a few areas, such as training, shooting skills, leadership and most of all, deploying a high power rifle in a department store with customers still in the store. The police also had impact rounds they could have used and pepper spray if they corraled the guy and got close to him. In fact a couple cops could have just over powered they guy and took him to the floor by tackling him if they had bothered to get close to him. The whole police action was pathetic from my point of view, and i served as a Firearms and Use of Force Instructor for just short of 2 decades.
         I get the cop did not and could not have known the mother and child were in that room behind the wall but if they had followed their training and Use of Force Continuum, this may very well turned out different. If the Sgt had done his job, he may have been able to prevent this double killing by the police. He should be suspended and reduced to patrolman.

   • Don’t be a liberal. You can kill someone with one of those locks. They’re not light like the crappy ones that come with every handgun these days.

     • Yes, of course you can kill someone with a bike lock. But, we’re told that police are brave people. With a half dozen cops on scene, and more arriving, they had options, like surrounding the suspect, and rushing him. No gun was in evidence, only a blunt instrument. Surround him, order him to drop the lock, when he refuses, you rush him from behind, and take him down. Six or more cops can’t do that? No actually brave cops around? FFS, they are shameful.

       • Agree.

       • Perp got what he deserved IMHO. That poor lady he beat half to death with the bike lock probably agrees too.

       • Well, Paul, I hope the LAPD will take your tactical advice to heart and incorporate it in their next training cycle.

         By the way, just how many armed take downs have you participated in? I am sure the LAPD will want to talk to some of the officers involved in the many armed take downs you have participated in.

         Have any of the experts commenting on the LAPD’s tactics in this case seen the video of the three LAPD cops trying to talk down a perp holding an innocent woman hostage with knife to her throat? They spent considerable time trying to approach him and talk to him. After he killed the woman by staging her in the throat they shot him dead.

         So this time they didn’t do any of the psychobabble that didn’t work the last time a crazy guy had a woman as a victim. They shot him before he had a chance to whack her with the bicycle lock a couple more times.

         Sheesh. We should make armchair quarterbacks like Paul do a ride-along for a week or two with units, especially at night in some of the hairier districts of LA.

       • Well…old lefty…Paul’s not wrong…they should have 50 state Constituitional carry and if the video shows it was a good shoot any good samaritan should have immunity from prosecution and arrest from cops after the fact…less cops would be needed for mall executioner detail…cops could deal with the bigger fish- corrupt court players and politicians…I’m retired and in fairly decent shape…not like in my mid thirties or anything and if I had Constitutional Carry in commiefornia with immunity I could’ve shot this garbage just as well as any lapd trained cop…as I’m sure any decently trained good samaritan could’ve and better chance of not killing any 14 year old girls…it’s not okay for cops to be judge, jury and executioner…

     • While I am glad they got the guy it is not a matter of whether it was a bicycle lock or not. I did not see a firearm nor was it wise to shoot someone in a store at close range where people may be hiding with a rifle. I also did not hear any warnings immediately before the officer shot. So if there was no gun involved there were plenty of officers around to subdue this guy with a variety of less than lethal means, tasers, batons, pepper spray etc. I am not defending the perpetrator but i think there are serious questions to be answered here and the video does not apparently tell the entire story since it was editied.

       • a deadly weapon is a deadly weapon. Whether it shoots bullets or not.
         Think about this…if it were you getting the ish beat out of you with the bike lock…would You have pulled your pistol and shot him to defend yourself ?

       • Country boy there was no reply on your comment so I am replying to my own for you. There is a difference in the rules of engagement for civilians and police. If I were attacked like that and was carrying I would have shot the person because he directly attacked ME!
         A police officer cannot just come on the scene and shoot someone who has harmed others unless he does not surrender his weapon or aims it or shoots it at the officer. I did not see a firearm? Did you? The man was 20 to 30 feet away and there were multiple officers in his vicinity. There were non lethal ways to disable him and that failing they could have restrained him physically. This is precisely how law enforcement gets themselves in trouble by not following procedure. Of course that will be determined but from the video which was edited there is room for a number of questions here. That is all I am saying.

     • Cant sum it up any better than this:

       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL2rsxaWztQ

       Ignored the orders to slow down, and a lack of training. That’s it. Plain and simple. I hope the mother of that child sues for a fucking billion dollars and gets it.

   • The piece of metal he used to beat a woman unconscious?

   • Oh good God people! Seriously?
     The perp was hell bent on killing or seriously injuring people swinging a bike lock at strangers. He’s demented via organic mental issues or drug induced dementia. It doesn’t matter. His behavior is murderous.
     Bottom line….LEO’s show up w/information ( correct or not) trying to prevent what they very well might perceived as trying to prevent a mall massacre ( there have been a few of those, right)? That’s why so many LEO’s were dispatched to this scene.
     One of the rules of firearm safety is: Always know what is beyond the target.
     To the officer that engaged the perp….he knew what was beyond the target…IT WAS A WALL. And it was not apparent there were people on the other side of that wall.
     Most likely had that wall not been there and he had seen people he would not have shot.
     This is a horrible tragedy, no doubt, all of it instigated by a crazed person inflicting damage on random strangers.
     What would you have done as an armed private citizen or as LEO in the exact same scenario? Would you have done a walk around to surveil the area as a bloodied and crippled person was trying to crawl away from the attacker?
     This LEO was trying to stop the threat as quickly as possible. The penetration of 9 vs. 40 vs 5.56 is a moot point in this case. The officer had no idea there were people hiding in a dressing room. He probably didn’t know it was a dressing room in the background. This is a life or death situation for the bloodied and beat person crawling away from the attacker.
     It is indeed very unfortunate and heartbreaking for the innocent bystander and family.
     Keep in mind this was instigated by a crazed murderous individual… NOT the police.
     The police are paid to try and keep peace ( hence: Peace Officer) and to mitigate criminal activity as best they can ( risking their lives every day….how many of you keyboard Commandos do that on a day by day basis)?
     This was a clear and justified shooting of this insane acting perp….unfortunately an innocent bystander was killed in this altercation at no fault of the officer involved.
     He was trying to stop the threat as quickly as possible and had no idea there were people hiding in the dressing room.

2. My only complaint here is I see no reason to be using a rifle at such close ranges indoors. If a handgun was used there’s a good chance the girl would not be dead.

   • you can’t really say that a handgun round would have given a “good chance” of no injury at those ranges. The dressing room wall is only several feet behind where the guy was shot, the walls are sheet rock most likely like most built in dressing rooms are in stores. There is no standard “magic bullet” “police” issued round that will not penetrate this material at those ranges.

     Until 2002, the standard LAPD pistol was the Beretta 92F. When William Bratton was appointed chief, he allowed officers to also carry the Glock and new officers are issued the Glock 22 in .40 S&W and today that is what most of the officers still carry. The Glock 22 in .40 S&W is my main EDC, I’ve tried it against sheet rock at 30 feet which is about the same distance here (+/- a little maybe) and it penetrates fine.

     The LAPD selected a new duty weapon in august this year, the FN 509 MRD-LE in 9mm.

     • One exception is that you did not shoot it through a man that size who probably well exceeded the FBI specified 12 inches of penetration. NYC police were armed with HP ammunition in 1998 and are armed with AR15’s or modified M4’s. Either of those weapons can generate more velocity and
       and significantly more energy than a handgun of the same or equal caliber.
       Generally speaking the bigger the caliber and heavier the bullet the slower the bullet in a handgun. While in a rifle the same may not necessarily be true particularly for rifles that are not using handgun bullets. So there are other questions to be answered here and your explanation of shooting through sheet rock at 30 ft. is rather weak. The bullet should have mushroomed on contact and could have possible fragmented inside the body and disintegrated on the floor if shot from a handgun. And while the same could have happened with the rifle evidently it did not.

       • Ahh, another expert on police tactics. Tell us dp, at what departments do you teach? Are you a nationally known consultant on police tactics in an armed, crazy guy beat down situation? I’ll ask you the same question I asked another armchair expert. Please tell us how many armed take downs have you participated in and in what cities?

         In all your take downs have you noticed that shoulder weapons are generally more accurate than sidearms?

         Have you noticed in many of shootings you have participated in that frequently bullets do the unexpected. Some even penetrate completely through the shootee. Have you read the rather detailed report done as a study for the DoD on the penetration of various rounds that showed that a 9 mm pistol round actually penetrated better than the 7.62 x 39 and the .223? What? You are not familiar with that study? Well, pray tell, how many tests have you done with various pistol rounds viz a viz various rifle rounds and at what distances and against what types of targets? Inquiring minds what to examine your expertise background. Or are you the classic definition of expert, a guy from out of town with a Cross pen?

       • To old lefty: and your credentials are what or are you just one of those armchair experts you are talking about. I watched two videos on that very topic and in both cases the ar15 with soft and steaI tips out performed 9mm by 6-8 boards to 3 boards.
         I don’t recall the video saying what the consistency of the wall was do you? Now lets look at the ballistics Muzzle velocity for a 223/556 round can range roughly from the low 2900 fps to a high around 3700 fps with bullet weights of 40 grains to 62 grains and ft-lbs of energy from around 1130 to 1330. A 9mm muzzle velocity between around 1145 to 2000 (includes +P excludes many sub sonic rounds) bullet wt. included here from 50 to 124gr with ft-lbs of energy from roughly 335 to 450. Not sure how you can get a 9mm with almost 3 times less the max energy level to penetrate further than an AR15 round? The videos I watched showed roughly 2 to 2.5 times the penetration on two inch wood boards spaced 2 inches apart. I have also seen gel tests comparing 556 against 7.62 and the 7.62 penetrated further.
         So now let me ask you to provide your credentials that makes you an expert and also would appreciate you citing your source so we can check that your claims are true. You have some set challenging other people whom you do not know and setting yourself up as some expert to talk down to the rest of us. Put up or shut up and then I will tell you exactly what my credentials are and I assure you they are far in excess of your own.

     • I never said no injury. I said she probably wouldn’t be dead. I’m very particular about my words.

   • 5.56 vs 9mm penetration in various mediums is a fascinating study and is a tossup on which is more likely to have unintended casualties. Can only speak for military issue stuff but we found that M193 tended to go through less barrier material most of the time compared to fmj 9mm. I am sure hollow points in both calibers make this a far more complicated guess but ultimately no way of knowing.

     • Just watched two videos with fmj and soft point ammo and Ar15 223/556 smoked 9mm, 40, and 45 caliber handguns. They penetrated 3 boards and AR penetrated 6-8. So not sure what exactly you folks were shooting through but that is a significant difference in penetration with both kinds of rounds.

       • I think you missed the context of the discussion. The assertion was that a police hand gun round would not have penetrated the dressing room walls and thus would not have resulted in harm to an innocent but that really can’t be said at these distances.

         My Glock 22 .40 S&W (my main EDC) penetrates 1/2 inch sheet rock just fine at 30 feet (which is the distance involved here +/- a few feet maybe). The dressing room walls are sheet rock, 1/2 inch sheet rock is common for internal walls. The police issue for LAPD is (currently still) the Glock 22 .40 S&W. An LAPD Glock 22 .40 S&W round had a chance of penetrating the dressing room wall, so the difference between the 5.56 round and a .40 cal round for penetration at this distance is negligible in terms of harm as both would have had the same chance of inflicting the same outcome.

       • .40 and Nanashi beat me to the explanation and covered it well. Seek out videos where ballistic gel or similar human body substitutes are shot first before passthrough penetration of drywall/wood/other barrier material is measured. Your videos would cover why missing is bad so not at all worthless info.

   • Vhrus, I don’t know what load the officer was using in his AR, but the average defense load in a handgun (we’re talking 9mm and up) has more penetration than a .223 55 grain softpoint. I’ve won money on it. Regardless of range a shoulder fired weapon is more effective. If the question is gunfight, a rifle is the answer. My question is; if this guy had a bicycle lock why weren’t the other customers whipping his ass?

     • I had the same question – why was everyone so docile? I’ll have to look at video again, but I believe that only women were left, at the point where he begins whacking on people. One, two, three men could have, should have rushed him, but I don’t think any men were left on that floor at that time.

       • The left traded real men for government a long time ago. I’d think twice about getting involved knowing the potential post ramifications of being governed in a leftist ****hole.

       • I’ll bet if a few of those victims were armed with a hand gun he would have been stopped, probably in a position that would have had a chance of not putting a round through the dressing room wall.

     • Not sure who you bet but I just watched two videos and with both soft and hard tips the 223/556 smoked everything from 9mm to 45 acp. Best the handguns could do was 3 boards while the AR did 6 to 8.

       • I meant positional. All the assaults happened in a position where if the victim had a hand gun and used it they most likely would not have been pointing in the direction of the dressing rooms.

   • I had the same thought. Handguns would have been vastly preferable for the situation, and yet most of the officers had rifles. The officer on point should have been armed with beanbags or a handgun.

     Also, the officers yell to each other that he is BY the fitting rooms. Seems like a violation of firearms rule #1 to approach with the fitting rooms directly behind the suspect. That said, I understand he was following the blood trail as quickly as possible as the repeated urges for him to slow down are audible on the recording.

   • Everyone is pretty hung up on the rifle thing. Rifles are by design more precise. Also 55 grain spire or hollow point ammo tends to penetrate dry wall and barriers less than 147 grain 9mm. The rifle is a fine choice for a place like a department store due to the chance of long distances for engagement and the possibility of people in the store who are not involved.

     As for why did they shoot immediately? Because priority of life dictates that the criminal is at the bottom rung and the innocent woman he just got done beating the brakes off of is at the top. Sooner he’s dead or neutralized, the sooner med can come rushing in and stabilize her.

     I dont like that a child died, but this is very much a fluke. An expensive and tragic fluke.

     • I just watched two videos and ar15 223/556 smoked 9mm, 40cal and 45cal shooting through wood blocks 2 inches thick with both soft and fmj and the best handguns could do was 3 boards and ar15 6 to 8. So I am not sure where you got your information but I would assume wood is stronger than drywall?

       • You keep bringing up this video. Post it please. FBI has already done numerous ballistic tests that all reach the same conclusion: 5.56 penetrates less than standard 9mm.

   • Seems like they used a rifle caliber weapon in a pistol caliber situation. Now I haven’t see the video but I also question why there was no attempt at using a taser. Or at least try to communicate with the subject. At least they can say they tried non-lethal force before going to lethal force. I can understand not using pepper spray as the distance you need to be from the subject to deploy the spray is about the same distance the suspect could swing that chain and hit someone. And the nonsense about rushing him with a bunch of officers? STUPID. Cops don’t get paid enough to risk their life foolishly. One or more officers would have been injured before they could have overpowered him. This is a tragedy no doubt. The use of a high powered rifle round in a close combat situation is something that need to be reviewed in my opinion

3. “civil rights attorney” Ben Crump – is the biggest ambulance chasing POS since Jessee Jackson was in his prime. Despicable turd.

   • neiowa, you’re right about that! My former agency hired his brother to work in our jail. He left for Tallahassee PD. Where he was arrested for demanding sexual favors from a woman on a traffic stop. I don’t remember how that turned out. Anyway, I don’t believe Benjamin Crump has a moral fiber in his body.

     • He is a racist , race baiting, pos. I can’t believe that he still has a law license. Actually yes I do, and I’ve seen the shit he does. All for the air time and $$$

4. Knowing your target and what’s beyond it is nice but reality brings with it limitations.
   Finding a reported “man with a gun” up against a wall with his bleeding victim on the ground seems like a pretty reasonable shoot to me.

   Do we need to include bullet proof barriers in construction codes now?
   Seems like holding society to behavioral standards and removing those who refuse to abide by those standards would be cheaper. We’ll start with the low bar of not beating other people. Wolves are kicked out of packs for less.

   • Each and every one of those cops are responsible for verifying the situation. Some random, anonymous bozo calling in, saying there is a gun, doesn’t make the idiot a shooter. Body cam footage definitely shows that no one attempted to verify anything, they caught sight of their suspect and opened fire. Zero attempt to deescalate the situation.

     Negligence by cops should be punishable just as negligence by anyone else.

     • “Each and every one of those cops are responsible for verifying the situation.”

       They did verify, with the information they had at the time, from their POV.

       The shoot was good, as far as the cops are concerned. Really crappy luck for the girl and her family. And Crump has a nice payday in front of him for very little work… 🙁

   • Did you see a gun, I did not?

   • As a Marine Corps Veteran and Police officer I see this shooting as gross negligence and definitely not a clean shoot, anyone that knows ANYTHING about 5.56/.223 ammunition knows that it is a high velocity bullet and will easily go through a body at close quarters unless it hits bone and even if it hits bone and fragments it is still able to bounce around and come out with such force to injure others. With that being said even if this shot hit his subject clean there is still a good chance that due to his proximity to the subject and the bullets velocity that it would continue on through and find its way to another target behind the subject before coming to a halt, which means it’s extremely easy/highly probable for it to penitrate a thin department store drywall built for a dressing room even with his bullet hitting and passing through his target. So just imagine this same ammunition that is capable of doing that completely missing his subject entirely and having a free for all right into the concrete then through a thin dressing room drywall. This is just blatant reckless stupidity by this uneducated officer who is allowed to be issued and use such a weapon at his discretion when he (and more than likely most of the police force) have no reason to pick up and handle said weapon without clearly knowing when and how to use a rifle with high velocity ammunition in close quarters when there are vulnerable bystanders in proximity of your target. With so many other officers there who were not carrying a weapon using high velocity ammunition this should have been a complete last resort but instead we have another trigger happy füćkïnģ moron who was rushing to the subject while being told to SLOW DOWN just to use his weapon. He has absolutely no reason he should be issued such a weapon when he obviously lacks the education/weapons safety of the capabilities of said ammunition with this rifle. Fücķ the thin blue line, I’ll cross it any day and speak up when it comes to stupid śhït like this that never needs to happen and is easily avoidable. My heart goes out to Valentina’s family and especially her mother who had to be there and hold her daughter in her arms while she bled out and passed away due to this doüchebäg Barney.

5. Any bets on whether this screw ball was out on bail? Parole?

   This is why anyone with a clue and any choice in the matter avoids LA and all the other Blue wastelands the large cities have become.

6. More dead 14 year olds, this time in Texas:

   “Police said a 14-year-old suspect is now in custody for the murders of three other teenagers at a Garland convenience store. Police are still looking for a man they want to question about the shootings.

   GARLAND, Texas – Garland police have arrested a 14-year-old for shooting four teenagers, killing three of them, at a gas station.“

   • Miner, we have two incidents. One has a 14 year old victim. It is tragic, but the planet I live on is dangerous. The other has a 14 year old suspect. Who should have been shot by LE had they had the opportunity. Other than the two being 14; what’s your point?

     • Or shot by an armed citizen. Either, or.

     • Was the round deflecting off the floor after it hit the suspect or was it a bad shot that hit the floor and then the victim? If it was the latter then why bother with the rifle if you can’t make the shot. Let someone do a pistol shot.

7. What I see in the videos isn’t good. Dude has a bike lock. Six or more cops are there, on top of him. NONE of them offers to physically restrain the suspect. They could have swarmed the suspect, and incapacitated him. Instead, the guy with the AR forces his way to the front, and fires the moment he sees a suspect answering the description he has been given. I heard no orders to surrender, to drop the lock, or anything. Suspect comes into sight, BANG BANG BANG BANG. I could forgive the cops if they kicked the crap out of him, before, during, or after he was handcuffed. It’s the eagerness to shoot something, someone, anyone that gets me here. Cops portray themselves as brave – the brave thing to do here, would have been to get close up and restrain the suspect.

   • Agreed…I wonder if he was one of the cops that shot up a mother and daughter delivering newspapers several years back…100 rounds shot and none disciplined…

     • …..some animals are more equal than others…

       (Note George Orwell’s Animal Farm was first published in 1945 and the Soviet Union is long gone…but the truths still hold.)

   • Exactly. Where was the pepper balls or beanbag rounds. Have the officers with the shotties have less than lethal and maybe one guy with a pepper ball gun and you can cover all the options(less than lethal to lethal even with the shotguns you could have beanbags rounds and lethal rounds in the side saddle). Then if that doesn’t work then go to the lethal option. But not the rifle guy.

     Im sure for “officer safety” it was easier to just blast so they can go home safe…does little to comfort that poor girls family though.

   • Exactly, Paul. One of the four rules of gun safety is “Know your target, and what’s behind it,” and the trigger-happy cop had already been told that there was a DRESSING ROOM in front of him when he decided to be judge, jury, and executioner of the first male he saw, without even asking the guy to raise his hands or drop the bike lock.

     The cop armed with the rifle who pushed other cops out of the way to get to the front had already made the decision to shoot the first person he saw who wasn’t lying on the ground. He decided to be judge, jury, and executioner. It’s not the job of police to be judge, jury, and executioner, like they’re the star of the movie Judge Dredd. The instant the cop saw a man fitting the description, he shot several times. He didn’t order the guy to raise his hands, didn’t order the guy to drop his bicycle lock, didn’t identify himself as a cop, didn’t even stop to verify whether the man he was shooting at was the perpetrator or some innocent shopper. I emphasize “shooting at”, not shooting, because he missed his target and a bullet hit the floor and ricocheted, he missed even with a rifle at close range equipped with an optic, he missed killed a fourteen-year-old girl. But his main mistake wasn’t missing an easy shot, his mistake was deciding that instead of trying to arrest a suspect, he was going to be judge, jury, and executioner, shoot first and ask later whether he was shooting at (again, I emphasize “shooting at”) the right person!

     Luckily, one of the two people the cop shot turned out to be the perpetrator, but that was just dumb luck. The rule-breaking cop could just as easily have shot an innocent male shopper AND also killed a 14-year-old girl, because he never stopped to find out whether the person he was shooting at was the suspect, or whether the person was armed, never gave the guy to drop his bicycle lock. And this trigger-happy Judge Dredd cop has already been told that there was a DRESSING ROOM immediately behind the guy he was shooting at (again, “shooting at” but missing at least once, even with an optic-equipped rifle at close range).

8. First, where was store security? Second, why officer with .223 caliber rifle take point when there were officers with shotguns? This is proof that a .223 can and does over-penetrate. In a closed environment with possible civilians around, poor choice of point weapon.

   • At that range, a bean bag round or rubber bullet out of a shotgun would probably have worked fine. It might have even been lethal.

9. Officer M16 commando is responsible for that girl’s death. Let me take point with the rifle. What an asshole. Real quick to push fellow officers who were there before him out of the way. He took charge and decided what to do, he is responsible.

   • Agreed. This guy brought back memories to execution of the pellet pistol kid in Vegas. Orders the crying kid to crawl to him on his knees and when his pants drag down he executed the kid for pulling up his pants despite already having him pirouette to show no gun in back. Cop had same commando fantasy attitude.

10. Why didn’t the police use their tasers? Or at least try them first, before shooting? There were multiple police officers, so if the first taser attempt did not work, a second could be tried, etc..

11. “The investigation is just beginning and it could take up to a year or more to complete….”

    Ok.

    • They look less incompetent when they just set the bar really low.

12. How many shots were fired? I could not determine it from the video and have not seen it mentioned elsewhere. I once asked a police firearms trainer why, if three or four officers show up at a scene with only one suspect and start firing, why all the police officers present empty their magazines? Did not much of an answer. That is certainly not how the military operates. Yes, I know they are supposed to “stop the threat”, but now that most carry semi autos with 12 to 15 or more rounds, that is a lot of lead flying around. And we all know police officers are “highly trained” and excellent marksmen. Back in the old days of revolvers, officers were much more discerning in their shooting habits. I’m old and know two retired officers who killed suspects shooting at them. Both did it with on shot. I’ve also seen the multiple videos of Brazilian police officers, armed with semi autos, taking out multiple suspects in a fight with one shot each. (Food for thought: what would have happened if this particular case involved a legal, concealed carry customer who’s stray bullet killed the child in the dressing room? We all know the answer.)

    • True… 40 years ago agencies in Texas stressed accuracy over everything. Not sure what happened to that mindset.

    • One shot threat stops with hand gun are rare even with “accuracy” being a prime focus. Four or five rounds per target is more the norm before the threat stops aggression or is no longer able to be aggressive.

      I had to put seven rounds in each of two threats before they were stopped. My situation was a little different and I had to fire a lot of suppressive fire to keep the threat from reaching their victim and let me get into a position to definitively stop them. But even with the 15 round mags I had on me, I was down to three rounds left before they finally went down. One died, the other lived and paralyzed for life in prison. I had put seven rounds in each one before they went down. They should have listened when my wife yelled at them “You son’s a bitc#s, he’s going to kill you!” when she saw me coming and was fighting to get away from them, she broke free from them but was trapped between them in the parking area. After it was over, the one still alive, she was still kicking and stomping him and cussing at him when the police rolled up.

    • ” I once asked a police firearms trainer why, if three or four officers show up at a scene with only one suspect and start firing, why all the police officers present empty their magazines?”

      Accuracy is a secondary consideration. Cops are trained to put as much lead and copper in the air as possible. That’s just one of the reasons I stay away from cops.

    • “why all the police officers present empty their magazines? Did not much of an answer.”
      They didn’t. However, in cases where that happens, it is because police generally are only legally sound to use deadly force if they reasonably fear imminent deadly* force. If you, one of three responding officers, fear deadly force, it only makes sense for you to shoot. The very same logic applies to both other responding officers to a developing situation. SWAT teams may have a ‘designated shooter’ who is supposed to engage the primary target but that’s not the reality of most police shootings where there is no time to figure out a game plan.

      “That is certainly not how the military operates.”
      – Unless you’re in some tier 1 unit that trains all the time AND responds to a situation like this, I do not believe you.

      “And we all know police officers are “highly trained” and excellent marksmen…”
      – I know you are being sarcastic but I’ll take that opportunity to point out that the issue of police training and marksmanship is NOT being addressed. When there is a shooting like this the ‘usual suspects’ like that hack lawyer Crumpet or whatever come out and demand a payout and, sometimes, ‘training’ reforms. What KIND of training, though? Diversity training. ‘De-escalation’ training. Never shooting training. And meanwhile, as you severely limit the amount of money and cops available through budget cuts and a sharp drop in demand for the job, good luck getting better cops.

      “Back in the old days of revolvers, officers were much more discerning in their shooting habits.”
      – Yeah. It was considered a pretty important aspect of being a cop. It was also a lot easier to fail a candidate back then. Hell, LAPD used to have a height minimum of like 5’10.That said, “back in the day” cops (statistically) shot a hell of a lot more people than they do now.

13. Ya , blame the cops,
    Don’t worry about the thug, he’s just trying to live his life his way, according to the squad,
    Poor dead girl is just another casualty in the life of a Californian,
    But according to a lot of the comments here , it’s the cops fault, F – OFF, 🖕🏿
    Cops want to go home after their jobs done, not get caught up in , let’s blame the cops again game.

    • Every round fired by someone is their responsibility. So yes it is the cops fault. For one using a rifle in close range on a suspect when at least two officers in the formation had shotguns and one a pistol. But the rifle guy takes the shot. Doesn’t make any sense. Patrol rifles have their place but when you have that many officers some strategy would have gone a long way.

      If the rifle guy was alone and the first one on the scene and he took the shot and it killed the girl I wouldnt be as inclined to be so strict on him but when there are other options to take the guy down its negligence to go to the rifle.

      • 9mm Pistol is actually “better” at penetrating barriers than 5.56 rifle. Shotgun depends on the load. Real issue is the cop didn’t at all confirm the guy he shot was actually the person they were looking for, and only by chance did he get the right guy. He did not know his target, and did not know what is beyond it.

        • So if a vehicle needs to be stopped I’m too throw down the 5 56×45 rifle and shootz it with my 9mm pistol?
          One sheet of sheetrock wont stop either one. Exspeicily if the 5.56×45 is fmj.
          Recruit to Captain.
          ” What about my bullet proof vest?”
          Your fine as long as you get hit with a 5.56 but your fckd if he pulls out his 9mm.

        • Exactly, Nanashi. I couldn’t have said it better myself, so I’ll just second your words, “Real issue is the cop didn’t at all confirm the guy he shot was actually the person they were looking for, and only by chance did he get the right guy. He did not know his target, and did not know what is beyond it.”

          That’s one of the four rules of gun safety, which he violated, and the video shows he’d already been warned that there was a DRESSING ROOM in front of him before he started to shoot blindly and wildly, missing at least once even though he had an optic-equipped rifle at close range. Luckily only one innocent person died (the 14-year-old girl in the dressing room), but it could just as easily have been two, since he simply fired at the first man he saw without verifying who he was aiming at or shooting at.

          He decided to be judge, jury, and executioner, and he also decided to shoot the first man he saw without stopping to find out if the man was a suspect or just another shopper. And the man he shot wasn’t currently threatening anyone, so there was no reason to shoot when he could have simply taken the man into custody.

    • Maybe if a cops first priority is going home at the end of the day, they need to find a different job.

      The job is to serve and protect. Not collect paycheck and do whatever it takes to go home at the end of the day.

14. Honestly police need more training and more options for situations. They should have magazines with some sort of color code or something with different rounds for different situations. A 223 FMJ is what killed the girl. If they had other ammo options like frangible or maybe something heavier and slower like 300 blk subsonic maybe that girl would still be alive. Not to mention actually trying to subdue the guy before blasting him. I feel like a beanbag to the head/chest of the guy would have subdued him better than a through and through 223 FMJ or whatever ammo they were using.

    I think it boils down to more training and less going to lethal options right away. With that many cops two of the cops with beanbag rounds (and maybe a side saddle with other ammo options) would have been the better choice.

    • Bingo….I agree 100% !!! Especially with multiple officers present. Some could be armed with lethal options and others with non-lethal ones. The former could serve as back up to the former, as the former try to de-escalate the situation.
      Actually, I don’t feel too bad that this perpetrator died…he deserved to and it saved us tax payers a bundle. But this situation also shows the danger of “loose bullets” flying around. Sure, they could not see the ladies in the dressing room, but they were there. Also regarding training: at such close range, how did the officer miss his target? (Yes, I know, stress, etc, etc, but still ???)

    • Willing to bet the 300 blk subsonic would penetrate a good bit farther than most 5.56 options that do not involve a penetrator. 9mm very well could have done the same if it was a miss/bounce off the floor. In the end it will take a while to see what actually happened and most lethal munitions can clear a human body and have the ability to kill someone behind sheetrock if they hit the right(wrong) areas.

      • “Willing to bet the 300 blk subsonic would penetrate a good bit farther than most 5.56 options that do not involve a penetrator.”

        Or a 9mm LE round. Most likely just 2 sheets of gypsum board between the shooter and the little girl… 🙁

        • From my reading there are some subsonic 300blk that don’t overpenetrate as much and expand in the target like a 9mm hollow point. The lehigh 194gr and Hornady 190gr are two examples I have read about.

          Which is what i was alluding to a special round from a rifle that doesn’t overpenetrate several walls before it stops.

        • Which unfortunately may not have made a difference regardless of caliber. We would use 5.56 to “reduce” the risk of over penetration after bad guy gets hit for reasons Nanashi covers below. Risk is still there and misses/unknown backdrops still can happen. As to super expansion high end loadings yes they exist but medium sized city police swat teams never got access to them even when requested/ordered (supply and authorization issues but obviously will vary by department and when ordered) and doesn’t happen for the army in general for William.

    • Heavier ammo actually retrains more lethality through barriers than lighter ammo. You lose lots of speed (and stability for cartridges like 5.56) on contact, but little mass. Look up any ammo penetration test: 9mm, even from a pistol, penetrates further and retains lethality better than 5.56

15. The real key to preventing this would’ve been 5 people in the store with pepperspray and 6 with CCW guns. A guy with a bike lock attacking woman shouldn’t be a reason for a mass shooting called into the police, but for a public beating. Or closed casket, if the attacker continues to make bad life choices.
    From what we see on the video the officers only mistake was missing. If there is a bleeding victim on the floor you mustn’t negotiate or use less lethal on an armed suspect one step behind her. I wouldn’t judge any CCW holder for shooting the attacker right then and there either. But you are accountable for every round fired. And killing innocent 14yo girls is not very appreciated.

16. What I just saw was the removal of a zombie walking. Going down an escalator with his bike confused him to the point of outrage. What I did NOT see was white nationalism.

    This isn’t a video of anything other than a nut case needlessly lashing out at the world around him. Why take off the pants? Possibly out of frustration for being the wrong size? That’s what it looked like to me.

    This is why people need to armed. This is the reason to carry a gun. Did you notice how long it took for the cops to get to him? It was his bike lock (that he walked away from). Premeditated? No. It’s because it was there.

    oh yea…there’s my lock.

    He used it because that’s what he had. Could have just as easily been the bike itself or anything else, like a gun. No thought. Not even instinct. Just mindless violence.

    Will Pelosi ever be questioned about it? No one there cares enough to hold any elected leader accountable for this city self-destructing. Those that might be left that do should leave and leave any liberalism they might have behind.

17. Clearly an an unarmed man being met with a hail of high velocity rifle bullets inside a store filled with people is the height of stupidity and gross disrespect for civilian lives not to mention a man who was suffering a mental crisis. Surely this Moron Cop had a pistol, and a Taser or should have had them. Even an old fashioned Billy club would have knocked the guy out cold.

    Untrained irresponsible cops who in most cases cannot be prosecuted because of “qualified immunity” gun down on average 1,000 people a year in Capitalvania where life is considered cheap and expendable. In 2012 U.S. Cops killed 1,200 people while in Germany with professionally trained cops who are held responsible for their actions killed only 12 people and in China with 4 1/2 times the population of Capitalvania the Chinese Cops only shot and killed 4 people. If this does not tell you something needs to be done then you support a jack booted state who does not value human life, but what else is new in Capitalvania the most lawless, savage. industrial country on earth, truly the shit hole of the Industrialized world. When the racist Herr Drumpf pointed his finger at African countries and called them “shit hole countries” he had 3 fingers pointed right back at his own country.

    I might add that the vetting system for cops in Capitalvania is a joke as any sadist, bully, or nut case can get a job as a cop in Capitalvania and the profession draws these pyscho cases like shit draws flies.

    Here is a classic case of an unarmed man, instead of being taken into custody, receives a hail of high velocity bullets which also mowed down an innocent civilian whose life Capitalvania considers cheap and expendable as civilian collateral damage can never be too high.

    • When it comes to cheap and expendable idiots pencil necked cartoon heads jump to the head of my list. I mean, really, who would miss them?

      • The truth hurts especially when guys like you are forced to look in the mirror. You are the type of person who never should have been permitted to become a cop. You have proved that by many of your jack booted comments. It would have made Adolf proud of you.

    • Yah know Dacian, I was agreeing with you up until you went on your Captialvania rant.
      Sure it sux, but it sux less then a some of those countries your always referring to, well in my opinion anyway.

18. If this had been New York City, two street cops would have beat the shit out of this guy, then locked him up. Wouldn’t have made the 6 o’clock news. Period.

    • Or fired 14 rounds by two cops from eight feet away hitting a suspect 6 times along with several bystanders from direct and ricochet off the ground. The suspect was reaching into a duffle bag for a gun. NYPD Empire State Building.

    • Actually, if this was NYC those “two street cops” of yours would have fired every round they had and not hit him a single time. From 3 feet away.

      • 25-30 feet but otherwise yeah that did happen a handful of times downstate.

19. Anyone care to guess what recreational drugs the shitbag had inbided prior to attacking the shoppers?

20. Some of the comments here are just… Schizophrenic.

    At the same time people are demanding accountability for the police, they are simultaneously failing to recognize the fact that their earlier demands are what led to things like this happening.

    Back in the day, i.e. the 1970s, homeboy there would have gotten that beatdown. Then, people decided that was inhumane and “police brutality”, so the cops quit going “hands on”, ‘cos that was what got them in trouble. Then, too, there was the demand for itty bitty chicklet cops, ‘cos “sexual equality”, and we had to make the rules on lethal force uniform, so that when those itty bitty chicklets broke out their gats and fired everything up, the departments could justify them doing that.

    Y’all got exactly what you asked for. Why are you complaining?

    I’m the last damn person to defend a lot of what the police do, but… Jesus H. Jackson, you guys better make up your minds what the hell you want. I guaran-damn-tee you that if they’d busted out the PR-24s and beaten this guy to a pulp (which is what likely would have happened back around 1975…), y’all would be on here posting videos about what a horrible example of police brutality this was.

    Just like the politicians, we eventually get the policing we deserve. Those cops there? They’re reacting the way that they are because of the cues you’ve given them, collectively, in the environment you set up around policing. If everyone just stopped what the hell they were doing and complied with the police when the police showed up, you’d see a lot less “police abuse”, but when the criminally inclined decide to informally conduct behavioral conditioning on the police force by providing totally unpredictable and erratic responses ranging from immediate compliance to attempting to murder the cops the minute they show, well… Y’all are gonna get this kind of crap. You tolerate someone going hands-on with the police? You tolerate someone killing a cop and getting bail or released from prison early? Then, having asked the police to do the shittiest job imaginable, you expect them not to develop “acquired them-and-us syndrome”? Are you ‘effing nuts?

    Things like this stem from the signals society has sent to the police and the criminal. You “decriminalize” anti-social behavior, guess what happens when the cops show up to try and stop that sort of behavior from those who have now gotten the signal that “acting out” is socially acceptable?

    This ain’t all on the cops, folks: You’ve got collective responsibility, too–Y’all didn’t go out an lynch that prick Gascon when he’s done what he has done as a DA, well… Guess what? Y’all elected his ass, and tolerated his “initiatives”, so you own this.

    • This is true.

    • In regards to your misogynistic comments perhaps we need more female cops and less male dick heads trying to wave their penis in everyone’s faces.

      • I personally believe that uniform patrol officers should only be female. This would give the public the level of protection that they deserve.

      • Ah, yes… It’s misogyny to point out that the majority of women are smaller than men, and, on average, are utterly unable to win a purely physical fight with them–Which results in…?

        Oh, yeah–Lethal force getting used whenever there’s a fight involving a female police officer, which has implications that you “Oh, we need more female officers…” geniuses don’t comprehend.

        You have women and manlet males on the force? You can’t have two standards for use of lethal force: If there’s a situation that calls for a female officer to shoot, rather than go to “hands on”, then that same policy has to be applied to male officers who might be able to subdue a subject with the “hands on” approach.

        Uniformity of response means that when you have women and small men on the force, then you have to have an automatically higher percentage of encounters where lethal force gets deployed. Period.

        You want women and men of small stature on the force, for “equality”? Guess what, dumbass: “Equality” means that more people are going to die, because those physically inadequate-in-a-fight individuals are going to have to shoot them instead of restraining them physically.

        Morons like you have no business making decisions, and it concerns me that people like you have the vote. You do not comprehend cause-and-effect, because if you did, we’d still be restricting police patrol jobs to men over six feet tall and 180 pounds. We’d also still be teaching and using the non-lethal physical restraint techniques that used to be used, and which resulted in fewer lethal encounters.

        But, hey… Gotta get those little girls their job opportunities, who cares how many other people have to die?

        It ain’t misogyny; it’s cold, hard physical reality. America listened to the moron class, and decided that physical strength and size wasn’t something they were going to worry about when it came to selecting police officers, and then we had to start killing more people, instead of what we used to do when the average cop was bigger and stronger than the average person they’d be dealing with. Result? More people getting killed. People tried pointing this out to the idiot class, but nobody wanted to listen to the old beat cops who knew how things really worked at 2am the morning after payday down at the mill.

        It’d be nice to live in a world where physical strength and size didn’t matter in a one-on-one hand-to-hand encounter, but we don’t live there. Waif fu ain’t a thing, and that crap you see in the movies where some little 90 chicklet takes on one or two grown men and wins through speed and sass? That doesn’t actually happen. Real world, unless she whips out the Colonel Colt equalizer, she’s getting her ass beaten in.

        Which is why when you start making beat cops out of women, you also start creating a lot of dead people, because that’s one of the actual effects of that policy.

        Which has to spread across the entire force, because if you shoot Skel “A” for something because Chicklet Cop “B” shows up to deal with him, then you’d better also be shooting Skel “C” when Anyotherofficer “D” arrives on the scene.

        It’s an unavoidable consequence of your desire for female equality when there isn’t actually any–Sexual dimorphism is a thing. Boys are generally bigger and stronger than girls, period. This is a reality. We don’t live in a movie where little girls beat up big men, nor do we live in a comic book where women are able to shrug off hits from those men that break bones in real life.

        Denial of this fact is why we’ve distorted these questions, and you idiot types that scream “misogyny” whenever someone points these things out? You’re the reason for a lot of the problems we have with the police/civil relations today. You can’t cope with reality, so you scream and shout about “women’s equality” while demanding that the natural result of that demand being applied here? It’s natural consequence, which works out to more police shootings of civilians somehow be “fixed”.

        Sure, we can do that, but that means your idealistic and unrealistic bullshit has to go, and we need to go back to recruiting large-size men exclusively for patrol police work. You can’t have both things at the same time, but that’s not something that delusionals seem capable of working out for themselves.

        Of course, with you lot? Reality itself is hateful, and if we just wish hard enough, everything about the physical world will change to suit our infantile desires.

        But, see, here’s the thing: You’re getting exactly what you asked for. You were just too ‘effing stupid to realize what you were asking for when you did it. The significantly higher rate of police shootings these days is a direct consequence of your idealistic bullshit, but you’re too dense to comprehend that fact.

        Shit, that Minnesota police officer that just got found guilty for shooting the idiot struggling with her? He’s dead because instead of physically pulling his scrawny ass out of that car and stopping him without killing him, she had to go to her Taser, which she misidentified. Actual cause of that dumbasses death wasn’t what she did, it was the final event in a sequence that started with the idea that the physically inadequate should be police officers in the first damn place. The morons who decided she should be a patrol officer are the ones who should have been in the dock right next to her.

        Note carefully: None of my objections with chicklets or manlets being on the police force have anything at all to do with sex or gender roles. I’d have zero problems with having most of the full-size Samoan women I know being cops, because most of them are, quite frankly, going to be able to physically manhandle 90% of the people they encounter.

        All of you assholes wanting “less lethal force” being applied had better work out the whole cause-and-effect thing, here. You want less lethal force being applied? Then you need to have cops who don’t automatically have to resort to it, when idiots decide to get physically stupid with them. You’d also better be OK with what happens when they do decide to get physical, and not get all butt-hurt because dumbass got his ass beaten for hitting a cop in the first damn place.

        In a saner reality, more people would be able to work all this out for themselves, but we very obviously don’t live there.

        • That ain’t no sht, wemon and little guys should not be street cops.
          The Badge and Uniform only go so far, size matters. A small cop with Bruce Lee skills will be tested and more then likely have to use them.
          Plus, I’d rather be beaten up by a big guy then beaten up by a little guy because the little guy has to do more beating.
          It takes a big man to whip me,,,but it dont take him long.

        • quote————–It ain’t misogyny; it’s cold, hard physical reality. America listened to the moron class, and decided that physical strength and size wasn’t something they were going to worry about when it came to selecting police officers, and then we had to start killing more people, instead of what we used to do when the average cop was bigger and stronger than the average person they’d be dealing with————–quote

          Pure bullshit. The average police killing involves Male cops not Female Cops. And properly trained women and small men when skilled in martial arts training or using Tasers can indeed subdue larger people who resist them.

          I once watched a female martial arts instructor fight a huge male instructor and the female won. Again proving your rampant misogyny is as real as it is disgusting.

        • I love it when morons self-identify the fact that they cannot read, or comprehend when they do read.

          Let me explain, again, some facts of life. One is that use-of-force rules have to be uniform across a force. You can’t train big male cops to go hands-on, require it, and then have another set of rules entirely for smaller women and men wearing the same uniform. That’s something that will get you sued into oblivion, because it’s “unfair and unequal”.

          The other fscking problem here is that you think that because one woman can take on one man in something you’ve witnessed, that then implies that all women can take on all men, physically, at all times. Which, looking at the stats on male-on-female violence, ain’t actually a thing.

          You fail to comprehend that what we’re talking about here is the general case, not the specific. Edge-case females who can beat up the average male are not walking into police departments or the military looking for jobs. They’ve got better things to do with their edge-case physical attributes, things which pay a lot better. But, because you want to apply that one 95th percentile achievement across all women, you want to open up those traditionally male jobs which rely upon physicality to every woman, even those that cannot demonstrate that 95th percentile ability to beat up the average male when engaging in fisticuffs.

          Who is the woman-hater, here? Is it I, who acknowledge the differences between the sexes, or is it you, who wants to see women get the crap beaten out of them, or to have to deal with the aftereffects of killing other human beings who you also, simultaneously, don’t want them to be using lethal force on?

          Frankly, there’s something profoundly wrong with people like you. You’re either too stupid, or too ideologically engaged to allow any form of reality to intrude, and your insistence that reality conform to your fantasies is both infantile and utterly deluded.

          The reality here is that women are physically smaller, weaker, and not built for physical combat, which is something that is unfortunately a job requirement in patrol officers. If you’re going to make women cops, then you need to accept that shit like what happened to Daunte Wright is a natural consequence of that fact, and then adjust the law to match. Which, because you can’t have two separate sets of rules, further implies that every cop is going to have to follow those rules, meaning that you’ve just brilliantly thrown away every fscking tool in the box besides the use of lethal force.

          So, don’t complain when the Daunte Wrights and Valentina Orellana-Peraltas of the world get killed in the course of business in the world that you’ve created. This is a natural outgrowth of all the things you say you want–You’re just too fscking stupid to recognize that fact.

          Never ceases to amaze me when someone who can’t recognize reality immediately assumes “hatred” when someone points out the delusions in their thinking. No attempt to, say, argue from any real factual basis like actuarial tables showing body size, muscle mass, and so forth, actual data that refutes the infantile belief that the average woman can take on and win against the average man in a physical fight (which is pretty much demonstrated in the crime stats, anyway…), which is because that isn’t a fact supported by the data. All you’re left with is “misogyny” as an argument, something that isn’t a fact at all.

          End of the day, Ronda Rousey ain’t wandering into the local PD to volunteer her services. Nor is she enquiring at the local Army or Marine recruiting office–She’s a very unusual, atypical woman of impressive physical attainment, and your stupid ass thinks that she’s the average. Meanwhile, the actual females who’re being encouraged to take these jobs? They’re mostly average women. Who get their asses beaten by average men, every day of the week. You don’t want the cops killing every dumbass that tries to get physical with them? Then, you need to recognize reality, and start mandating size, weight, and strength standards such that they’re not going into that encounter predestined to have to pull out a gun to ensure they win. That means no chicklets and no manlets need apply. Sad fact of life, but there ya are: Fact. Not fantasy.

          Which, of course, you’ll continue to shriek at and deny, ‘cos that’s what your ilk do, when presented with things you don’t want to “believe”. Well, Mr. Stompy Foot? Here’s a clue: The universe ain’t going to comply with your desires just “because”. Sexual dimorphism in our species makes this set of facts essentially immutable, at this time–And, until we can do the genetic engineering to change that, it’s not changing any time soon.

          I don’t doubt but that you’d be one of the ones signing up for that stupid shit when it is available, never mind what the actual women involved with might want for themselves.

          And, I’m the “misogynist”. I’d laugh if the mentality demonstrated here wasn’t so sadly endemic to our current social system, which is well on its way towards dissolution because of idiocies like this.

        • Kirk you are not wrong but that was a lot of words to say someone lacks the ability to understand nuance or process intermediate (maybe) level math.

21. At least one of the police officers who responded really screwed up.

    First of all, someone calls in a “man with a gun”. How do the responding police know if that is accurate? They arrive at the store and people are standing outside saying that some crazy dude wearing shorts is inside. And while hearing these comments from the people standing outside, there are no audible gunshots. Okay. Definitely cause for serious concern and reason to immediately enter the store and search. Definitely NOT confirmation that someone is shooting people inside.

    Once upstairs, rifle cop charges ahead of everyone, sees a bloody woman, rounds the corner, and sees a dude in shorts without any visible firearms in hand. And rifle cop’s response: immediately shoot three times at that dude in shorts.

    Knowing what we know after the fact, that may seem fairly reasonable. If we realize what rifle cop knew at that time, that was not reasonable. First of all odds were 50/50 whether dude in shorts was a bystander or the attacker. (Simply being within 20 feet of a victim does not mean that you are an attacker.) To immediately open fire on him with a rifle was wrong. Second, as others on this comment thread have stated, cops should have challenged dude in shorts verbally first, then with less-lethal, and only after failing those challenges resorted to lethal force.

    Important caveat: my previous comment is incredibly important since police did not actually see the attacker with their own eyes. Unless they actually saw dude-in-shorts bludgeoning someone–which they most certainly did not–they should not immediately deploy lethal force.

22. So much went wrong.

    I acknowledge that the initial report indicated a firearm and a victim was bleeding on the scene. However, the suspect did not have a gun. When arriving, how would the police officers identify him as the suspect and not another victim who was chasing the actual perpetrator?

    There was no need to fire in this situation based on the video provided. The suspect did not have a gun. There were multiple officers on scene to assist in physically apprehending the suspect.

    I don’t think using the AR or shotguns rather than pistols would have resulted in a different outcome. Arguably, most shooters are more accurate with a long weapon. Had the officer engaged with his pistol, he may have fired more rounds and possibly missed with more bullets. At that distance, there was not enough material to slow a 9mm.

    • “There was no need to fire in this situation based on the video provided.”

      Yes, there was. Look at all the smeared blood on the floors as they made their way to the scene, and the sounds of a woman screaming. They were needed RIGHT THEN to stop the attack, and they did.

      It sucks for the girl and her family, but they will collect a multi-million dollar check from the police department…

      • Geoff,

        He was 20-30 feet away and moving laterally. He did not have a firearm. If there are other videos that give more context, I’ll be happy to revise my statement. However, with what is available in this video, there is no reason to shoot.

        Had he charged the victim or other officers (keeping in mind that the initial report claimed he had a gun), then by all means shoot.

23. The legacy of Darryl Parks is untouched. There must have been 7 cops walking around, including two carrying long guns. WTF?
    Hope the dumdum gets 20 years for accidentally killing that girl.

24. Way back, decades ago, when we lived in a sane and civilized country, the cops would have seen the guy didn’t have a gun, and they would have pulled out their truncheons and beat the miscreant to a pulp.

    What happened? The pu$$ification of America happened. People didn’t want the cops beating up criminals anymore. Women and beta-males became cops. The brass replaced .357 revolvers with 9mm handguns and magazines of 12-15 rounds, or M4 carbines with 30 rounds. Training emphasized number of shots over accuracy.

    The biggest change?? The cops began to see the general populace as dangerous, even the enemy.

    Do your children a favor and get the hell out of large cities. While some Sheriffs departments have succumbed to the above mentioned foibles, the more rural deputies see themselves as part of the community. They are not as quick to the trigger, because they know their communities better.

25. LA needs more Sgt Joe Friday.

    • Yeah, but wrong:
      Skin color
      Gender
      Sexual preference
      Faith
      Set of morals

    • Watch the 1968 Dragnet episode, where Friday is on the pro gun control side of a debate, and tell me you still like him.

26. and it only took 24 minutes for those police to arrive. Always remember ,the police will always be there to save you, so you don’t need to carry a gun. Well,,,, they’ll be there sooner or later. But don’t worry.

27. I think shooting someone in a store with a M16/M4 rifle at close range is a mistake. A handgun would have been more suitable. I am not certain the perpetrator had any other weapon other than the bicycle lock and there didn’t seem to be any warnings issued immediately prior to the shooting? If this were a civilian self defense issue it is likely they would be indicted because they are responsible for where the bullet goes and using a high powered rifle at short distance is liable as it did to go through the perpetrator and hit someone or something else. Perhaps the LPD should concentrate more on training than vaccine mandates and crt training.

    • No, penetration tests have repeatedly shown that 9mm, even out of a handgun, goes through walls better than 5.56, which loses stability and velocity upon hitting anything.

      • The only round that will not penetrate 4 double sided sheetrock walls 10 feet apart is birdshot. Is your child’s flesh tougher than sheetrock? Look up the Box o Truth website.

      • To Nanashi

        I think making a blanket statement like that is very misleading. There are many factors to take into consideration such as what was the distance involved , , was the bullet a hollow point or soft point or fmj , what was the weight of the bullet and the velocity?

        Recently 60 Minutes did a special on the penetration in ballistic gelatin of the 9mm handgun v/s the 5.56 rifle and seeing is believing. The penetration and horrendous wound cavity the 5.56 made compared to the diminutive wound cavity the 9mm made proved to me that I would rather get shot with a 9mm any day than a 5.56mm.

        One must remember too that most cheaply constructed changing rooms would be penetrated even by a low velocity pellet gun so penetration was not the factor here rather it was the high velocity of the bullet and the damage it did. A high velocity expanding 5.56 round often explodes like a bomb and even in fmj form often tumbles wildly doing horrendous damage as seen in the 60 Minutes program.

        Another question comes to mind, the 5.56 could have been a fjm and most cops carry expanding bullets in 9mm which again would produce less penetration in the 9mm and more in the 5.56 fmj

        All this is rather a moot point when the Cop should never have shot an unarmed man who at the time was walking away from him.

        • Thinking back on shooting various targets I remember noticing that a 5.56 rifle with a faster twist rate caused much more target reaction. Wood pickets burst with the over stabilized bullets much more than when same ammo was fired from a rifle with a lower twist rate hence less spin. A better demonstration of this was with 6.5×55 FMJ that would turn in a water filled balloon and spray up violently. Long thin fast spinning bullets seem to tilt and transfer energy sooner. All this to say I think with 5.56 the incident angle, barrel twist rate, and bullet geometry make a large difference in penetration. Plain military 9 x 19 FMJ has crazy penetration in some materials like dry wood. To my shock I saw these pass through ancient dry decommissioned phone poles.

28. SO MUCH FOR TAZER AND MASE GEL , TRAGEDY , 14 YEAR OLD HAD PAY THE PRICE .
    PRAYERS NEEDED FOR ALL .

29. A 14 year old died because nobody had the balls to say fck yur bike lock and go to work on the guy.
    Divided we fall, united we stand.

    • Yup

    • One person, cop or not, that has even minimal fighting skills could have taken him down. No shots fired. Cops are to quick to shoot nowdays. Everyone is. Everybody’s afraid of a good old-fashioned fist fight.

30. los angeles:
    500 square miles
    4 million people
    10 thousand police officers
    *only 38 police involved shootings*
    *only 13 killed*
    *in an entire year*
    anybody who is upset about those numbers
    doesnt have their head on straight

31. No fucking commands. Just shoot.

    • Kind of like the murder of Ashli Babbitt, except she wasn’t hurting anyone, and the cop ran away after he shot her. Do they teach cops to run away after they shoot people? Is that standard procedure? They had the gall to call him a hero. All of the usual cop hating leftists loved him for it. Analyze that one. There’s a reason for all things.

      • I’m not sure what you’re saying? My point is that he drew down on the guy and gave no commands to cease or desist. The officer just fired.
        He’s definitely a scumbag and the world is better, but cops shouldn’t just smoke people that are a solid 15m away and present no imminent danger. Definitely not a righteous shoot, regardless of what the guy had previously done.

        • “but cops shouldn’t just smoke people that are a solid 15m away and present no imminent danger.”

          Exactly. I’m agreeing with you. What I’m saying is that the “hero” that shot Ashli was a cowardly murderer that should be in prison. I don’t recall him giving her commands either. I didn’t see or hear it on the video. I don’t recall any witnesses attesting to it. Another difference between Ashli and this example: she was an unarmed, petite female.

      • Dud Brain

        Babbit was not murdered. She clearly heard the commands being shouted at her and tried to come into the building. The Cop had no way of knowing if she was armed or not. And no, the Cop did not run away he even willingly gave an interview later after the incident. And the people storming the building had been shouting they were going to hang Pence and kill Congress people. If anything its amazing the Cops did not kill a lot of them as no self respecting American would have condemned them for it when they were trying to overthrow the duly elected government and establish a one party dictatorship under Herr Drumpf..

        You have consistently praised these people and supported them. That makes you one of them in spirit at least.

        • I’ll try breaking up the replies to get around the robo moderation.

          1 of 3:
          “She clearly heard the commands being shouted at her”

          Which commands did he give to her? Where’s the evidence of that? Be specific. There were a lot of witnesses there.

          “The Cop had no way of knowing if she was armed or not.”

          So you, who is often the first to criticize police for shooting when there is no need, believe the federal police should shoot to kill because someone MIGHT be armed?

        • 2 of 3:
          “And no, the Cop did not run away he even willingly gave an interview later after the incident.”

          Was the press in the hallway after he shot Ashli?? He ran away after he shot her. He didn’t try to arrest her. He never even bothered to see if she needed medical attention. He ran away because he is a coward. He ran because he didn’t know what else to do. Was that standard procedure? There was a media blackout on his name. He was protected. Why aren’t other cops protected while they conduct an investigation? No one mentioned his name until much later when he finally gave an interview.

        • 3 of 3:
          “And the people storming the building had been shouting they were going to hang Pence and kill Congress people.”

          Are the police authorized to immediately take out anyone that says that? List the people that said that dacian. Do we know that Ashli said that? Did this particular cop hear Ashli say that?

          “You have consistently praised these people and supported them.”

          Is that so? What did I say, exactly? Quote me. Notice how I quote you or respond to something specific that you said? As usual, you just make stuff up to fit your narrative.

        • To Dud Brain
          quote——————Was the press in the hallway after he shot Ashli?? He ran away after he shot her. He didn’t try to arrest her. He never even bothered to see if she needed medical attention————quote

          When you make statements like this how do you think anyone would take you seriously???? No, the cop did not try to help her because he was facing an angry mob on the other side of the doorway. And there were police already on the other side of the door way. The Black Cop who did the shooting was supposed to keep people out of the building not abandon it to some nut case that tried to breach the wall. And despite your rants, at no time did the cop run away from guarding the other side of the wall until the wall was breached giving him and the other cops no choice but to either retreat or open fire and kill more people. Try again, normal people are shaking their heads at your wild responses trying to save face. It did not work.

        • quote————-Is that so? What did I say, exactly? Quote me. Notice how I quote you or respond to something specific that you said? As usual, you just make stuff up to fit your narrative.———–quote

          Try reading your own posts some time , you never miss a chance to denigrate or rant against minorities or refugees. Its a common theme in just about every post you make when we are discussing the subject of minorities. When have you ever said anything positive about minorities or refugees. Answer: I cannot think of even one time.

        • to Dud Brain
          quote————Are the police authorized to immediately take out anyone that says that? List the people that said that dacian. Do we know that Ashli said that? Did this particular cop hear Ashli say that?—–quote

          Your replies are not even credible at all. The answer is yes the Police damn well are authorized to take out people storming the Capitol Building even if they were all deaf mutes but they were indeed screaming they were going to kill people. Try watching the news coverage of the angry crowd some time.

          When this was going on I did not have my computer on or my TV but my phone was ringing off the hook with normal people telling me the Capitol was under attack with people trying to kill the Congressmen and saying they were going to do it complete with a scaffold outside. Now do you think the cops did not see or hear all of this. Get real and stop acting like a fool. You have lost all credibility.

        • to Dud Brain

          quote———-Which commands did he give to her? Where’s the evidence of that? Be specific. There were a lot of witnesses there.———–quote

          I see I am not dealing with a sane person.

          The video’s of the incident is there for all to see and hear.

          Try watching it some time. Below are two Camera angles proving the Cop was more than justified for shooting. I don’t know about you but I can hear the Black Cop clearly yelling at Babette way before he shot her.

          A black witness also warned Babbett that there was a gun and to stop. Of course you will be counted on to deny even the visual evidence. It does not fit your warped view of what happened.

          https://www.nbcnews.com/video/capitol-shooting-that-led-to-ashli-babbitt-s-death-captured-on-video-99180613572

          https://abcnews.go.com/WNN/videth-ashli-babbitt-75130133

        • So you’re admitting that at no point did he attempt to either arrest her or see that she received medical attention. Is that standard procedure? How often do police shoot someone and run away? Isn’t that showing a complete disregard for life? People were entering the building at other points. Why weren’t they shot? If he was going to run away anyway, then why would he shoot a person first? He wasn’t running from a mob. That stairwell was full of police. They weren’t running. It’s indefensible.

          “Its a common theme in just about every post you make”

          Okay, great. Then it should be easy to quote me. Put up or shut up liar.

          “The answer is yes the Police damn well are authorized”

          Then why was only Ashli shot? Why weren’t the other officers taking out people when they heard them say that? Show me evidence that Ashli said that. You don’t have it, do you? List the people that said that, and explain to me why they’re still alive.

          “I don’t know about you but I can hear the Black Cop clearly yelling at Babette way before he shot her.”

          Your second link doesn’t work. No, I don’t hear him. He has a mask over his face. I can’t tell that he said anything. I hear a bunch of people yelling. What commands did the cop give Ashli before he shot her? Notice the armed police (some with rifles) all around Ashli. Why didn’t they shoot her first? The obvious answer is because they didn’t view her as a threat.

        • Tell me exactly what he said to Ashli, and the precise point in the video when he said it. I’ll go back and review it to see if we’re on the same page.

        • Dud Brain

          Your panicked responses make you look even more ridiculous than you did before. You are not all there upstairs.

          And by the way if you could not get the link to work on one of my links you know damn well all you would have had to do is google Ashley’s name and watch that video and at least a dozen other similar ones.

          Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive. Your problem is you actually believe your far right rants.

          The video’s did not and could not lie but you do every time.

        • In other words, you can’t answer a single question. I’ve already seen all of the videos, dacian. I’ve been following this story. I never saw a video where I could hear that cop giving commands to Ashli. You’re the one telling this story, so I asked you for proof. You failed to provide it because it doesn’t exist.

          Where’s the video that shows Ashli saying she wants to hang Pence and kill members of Congress? Where are the witnesses that will attest to seeing and hearing her say that? If the officer heard her say that, then why isn’t it shown in the video? Because it never happened. That was part of your justification for killing her. You’re trying to justify the federal police killing an unarmed protester because you don’t like her political leanings.

32. Given that they were told he had a gun and found bloodied victims on the floor, this probably looked like a situation that called for immediate deadly force. Perception is reality when time is short.

    There is no such thing as ‘know what is behind your target’ in a scenario like this.

    I’m sure there are a hundred ways to armchair quarterback this situation. I’m not even suggesting that’s inappropriate as long as one recognizes that it’s a lot harder to make perfect decisions in the moment. However, I would suggest that we also take a look at the system that let this maniac walk the streets until he became an imminent threat to life (beating some lady in the head with a lock counts) and prompted this extremely dangerous situation.

    Even if you think the cops screwed up here, as you allow these situations to develop by releasing psychos into the public, the chance of having a cop screw up increases. Wouldn’t it be better to make better decisions when you have the time… like at a sentencing hearing?

    • Well said.

    • Hannibal,

      I hear you.

      What bothers me is that rifle-cop had no way of knowing for sure if bicycle-lock-man was another store patron or the actual attacker. The only indication that bicycle-lock-man could be the attacker was the fact that he was within about 25 feet of a bloody victim: that most certainly does NOT guarantee that he was the victim’s attacker. And remember, bicycle-lock-man had no visible bludgeon, knife, nor firearm in hand. Last but not least, no police officers had verbally challenged bicycle-lock-man, much less attempted to physically subdue him.

      In my opinion those facts do not support rifle-cop’s decision to shoot, regardless of how fast the situation was playing out.

      • Yup

    • Hannibal,

      Expanding on my previous comment, there seems to be a mentality, which may be isolated to California, where police “shoot first and ask questions later”.

      Do you remember when Dorner went on a killing spree and police were on high-alert looking for him in a blue Ford Ranger pickup truck (or something like that)? Then two women in a white Toyota pickup truck were about to deliver newspapers near a potential target on Dorner’s hit list when two cops (who were guarding that potential target) shot that pickup truck over 100 times without even attempting to verify who was inside? It was the wrong make, model, and color of pickup truck with two women rather than a man and the cops just lit it up. Then they did something similar to another pickup truck with the wrong person.

      And how about the bank robbery in Stockton, California something like 15 years ago? Bank robbers had one or two hostages in a car and led police on a high-speed chase for several miles. At some point police established an ambush location ahead of the bank robbers and shot their car something like 400 times, killing the hostage/s inside the car along with the bank robbers. Police had made absolutely no attempt to rescue the hostage/s or avoid shooting the hostage/s who had something like 80 bullet wounds.

      Then we have the instance of the private investigator in California who was parked in his car observing a property that he was hired to investigate when a deputy stopped to investigate/question the investigator. The investigator was reasonably respectful/cooperative in his car and explained what he was doing. For absolutely no reason whatsoever the deputy in short order drew his handgun and pointed it at the investigator whose hands were clearly visible and who never made anything remotely resembling a “furtive movement”. Even after backup arrived and a supervisor was on scene the deputy still wanted to keep drawn on the investigator. It took the supervisor quite a lot of conversation to get that deputy to finally holster his handgun.

      Of course we have the recent event where responding police shot and killed a bystander at a store.

      To be completely honest, I don’t hear about that sort of thing in other states. It very well could be a California thing.

      • You want an explanation?

        Look at the environment we’ve created for the cops, as a society. The reason they do what they do is because of the cues we’ve set for them. It’s basic human behavior–Is there anything cueing restraint in the environment? Is the sort of thing you say you want to see being rewarded? Or, is it being punished by the actuality of what happens in a police encounter?

        You want to blame cops, hold them accountable. Natural reaction.

        However, take a look at what is in the environment, what is experienced by those cops on a daily basis–Plus, what they see happening to other cops when those cops have to deal with being in these situations.

        Right now, the risk/reward incentive system encourages the cops we actually have to do the things they do. Why? Why do we have these “cowboy cops” on the actual job, and not the saints we say we want doing these things?

        Reality? We don’t actually want these things we so primly say we do, because what happens when a cop shows restraint in a firefight…? Oh, yeah… He dies. What happens when they go balls-out and dump magazines? Nada, ‘cos nobody holds them accountable inside or outside the disciplinary system.

        You say you want them to demonstrate restraint. What are you actually cueing up with your environmental signals? Out in the environment? The one that conditions human behavior?

        It ain’t accountability, and it ain’t restraint. Neither of those things are rewarded–Indeed, they’re actively discouraged.

        We had a local sheriff’s deputy dump two or so magazines into the middle of a small town near me a few years ago. The guy who he was shooting at? Didn’t hit him once. High-speed car chase ensued, ending in a wreck and apprehension of the “suspect”. Who, some two years later, was acquitted of any wrong-doing whatsoever. He’s even suing the county.

        That deputy still has a job, and has even been promoted. I and every other cop I know think he should have been fired and had his firearms rights pulled–This is a tourist town, and it’s a goddamn miracle there weren’t hordes of tourists on the streets when he had his one-sided “firefight”. The aftermath the next morning, when they were processing the scene? Little yellow flags everywhere on the surrounding buildings.

        I repeat, and reiterate: This assclown is still a deputy. Nobody cares enough to make an issue of it with the Sheriff.

        You want to know why they do what they do? Look at the environment. You get the behavior you reward, and we’re not rewarding positive police behavior in any way, shape, or form. Public has a responsibility for this, just as much as the police departments do. You don’t watch the watchers, don’t be real surprised when they turn on you.

33. IMO evacuation should have started from the mall. I feel if a call goes in that there is an active shooter, evacuation should begin.
    Again in my opinion, ideally police would be trained and equipped with less lethal such as bean bag guns. If no weapons with reach are on scene, less lethal can be deployed such as bean bag. I am told these will stop a man at one hit depending on point of impact and will occasionally kill but have very little wall penetration.
    The Air Marshalls were given pistol ammo made from either frangible lead or lead dust in Kevlar bags. These kill well but have low penetration, well suited for inside an aircraft or a mall .
    A better informed person can correct me here.

34. Damn he went in guns blazing with the 20” m16. Officer Rambo shoots first asks questions later, eh

35. Gas gas gas?

    No gas?

    ACAB.

36. IN the UK if he had been shot by police that Officer would have had a murder charge and for killing that girl a manslaughter one as well.
    What the criminal would have got was TASERED and peppered and in cuffs in seconds.
    The Police should now have their shirts sued off their backs for millions for careless discharge, It syas inn the article that thepollice have shot 35 suspects in the past year that as many as in any three on the largest countries in Europe including terrorist incidents, What does that say about the deterrent effect of ‘firearms for all’ and the death penalty??

    • What it says is that the subjects in europe are much easier to herd and fleece than the citizens of the US.

      • To Jethro W.M.

        Spoken like a true ignorant racist. The high School drop out that knows everything about anything and what he does not know is not worth knowing. LMAO.

        • Racist accusation – check
          Insults related to education level – check
          Refutation of his core point – n/a

          Your argument is invalid

    • 2016 Nice France truck attack 86 dead 458 injured.

    • The UK is a repellent nanny-state that makes it’s citizens into mewling, helpless wards of the state. Suggesting the USA should be more like the UK will make one few friends among Americans. I hear Parliament is considering limiting the size of kitchen knives. What’s next, outlawing pencil sharpeners? The UK—indeed, vast tracts of the Commonwealth—comprise the world’s largest slave colony.

37. Interesting. The less lethal options were there just steps away from the officer with the rifle. I wonder if the guy with the “tube” was the one saying “slow down.”

38. Sheet rock provides astounding fire protection but very poor armor plating.
    In Israel people are trained to go to the floor and find cover if an alert is called. It may be that ”active shooter” is better reacted to by going low and seeking cover than evacuation. But here it seems they called police and didn’t advise the shoppers of anything.

39. The problem isn’t cops or what gun they used or what non-lethal options they could/should have considered. The problem is this pig, overtly violent criminal loose on the streets because of asinine, liberal arrest, bail, and prosecutorial policies. This scumbag should have been rotting in prison or, better yet, done away with after the first dozen crimes he committed. Criminals have no fear of justice or retribution because liberals have perverted justice and outlawed righteous retribution. Arm ALL law abiding citizens, and arrest, convict, and execute ALL violent criminals. THAT’s how to save society.

40. What saddens me about the U.K. is that sentences handed down to firearms offenders (say a person caught with a handgun) are far more severe than the sentences for committing horrific crimes.
    I interpret this as ideology over humanity.

41. For those looking for videos mentioned about 9mm and 223/556 comparisons through wood blocks.

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=videos+9+mm+hp+vs+ar15+soft+point+penetration+ability&docid=607993826862701445&mid=3DA1F1652ECA9BA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BeOlRl8ZLI

42. Second video regarding comparison of 9mm and 223/556 penetration

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BeOlRl8ZLI

43. This video shows comparison of 556 pistol vs 9mm handgun and 556 pistol penetrates slightly more with only a 11.5 inch barrel through drywall not a full 16 or 20 inch barrel.

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=9mm+vs+556+video+through+drywall&view=detail&mid=786F4E0B647C6C13CFF2786F4E0B647C6C13CFF2&FORM=VIRE

    • Not to get too involved with loading (cant watch videos just now) but there is a counterintuitive issue with the 11.5 inch 5.56 pistol having less velocity for jacket/core separation after impact. With that said never saw pistol length AR’s involved in this testing so a interesting new data point to review later. Thank you this may be useful for evaluating whether SBR + various loadings may be improvements/risks for barrier penetration.

44. What a great video! It appeared to me that the 5.56 canted then disintegrated but despite that demonstrated tremendous penetration on drywall.
    Long ago I saw frangible bullet hits on aluminum hull APC in the Army causing paint damage whereas even out at 200 yards the guys did weld repair on the deep divots caused by ball 7.62. So I wondered how military style frangible do on drywall and looked it up and nope, gross excess penetration. But, I found a 9 mm Czech 62 grain extremely high velocity that claims to have only small penetration as it dumps all energy instantly (I am thinking like a varmint bullet), and Glaser Safety Slugs which claim “modest” dry wall penetration. These use a fragile jacket filled with birdshot and a polymer tip. This LAPD tragedy might get home defense people thinking about ammo choice. Under stress, few people will place their rounds well. It’s a horrible thought that a home defense situation might result in a kill two blocks down.

Comments are closed.