The day after Otis McDonald went on to his reward, chicagotribune.com has a report on a defensive gun use by a resident with a concealed cary permit. “The man was walking from his garage to the front of his home when two males in hoodies appeared in a gangway between his home and the neighbor’s home, [Chicago Police Department News Affairs Officer Michael] Sullivan said. One of the two men pulled a handgun from his waistband and pointed at the man who took out his own gun and managed to fire several times at the males, Sullivan said . . .
The males fled the area without being struck and the shooting did not result in any property damage, police said.
After the shooting, police responded and determined that the man was shooting in self-defense. The man had a valid firearm owner’s identification card, a valid concealed carry permit and police were able to determine that he had completed a required concealed carry class and was properly trained, Sullivan said.
The man is not facing charges as police search for the two males, described as a tall male and a short male. Those two face charges.
Imagine that! No charges for defending himself against a lethal threat by exercising his natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms. And in case we couldn’t figure it out, we now know the two bad guys will face charges! You know, if and when they’re apprehended.
Anyway, there you go; a message to Chicago criminals: some Windy City residents will now stand their ground. You have been warned. [h/t lowhouse5]
Obviously the man should have simply thrown up his hands and handed over whatever the thieves wanted. How irresponsible to defend himself.
; )
The NY Times calls this “passive cooperation”. In the real world, we call it “surrendering”.
It is always a temptation to an armed and agile nation
To call upon a neighbour and to say: —
“We invaded you last night–we are quite prepared to fight,
Unless you pay us cash to go away.”
And that is called asking for Dane-geld,
And the people who ask it explain
That you’ve only to pay ’em the Dane-geld
And then you’ll get rid of the Dane!
It is always a temptation for a rich and lazy nation,
To puff and look important and to say: —
“Though we know we should defeat you, we have not the time to meet you.
We will therefore pay you cash to go away.”
And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we’ve proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane.
It is wrong to put temptation in the path of any nation,
For fear they should succumb and go astray;
So when you are requested to pay up or be molested,
You will find it better policy to say: —
“We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
No matter how trifling the cost;
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
And the nation that pays it is lost!”
– Rudyard Kipling
Completely missed two guys shooting a volley of rounds? Perhaps he needs more training. If you’re going to DGU in a situation like that, do society a favor and take out the scumbag perps. 😉
Freedom and guns are new concepts in IL. I give him an A for effort.
Frankly, it’s probably a good thing (from a “guns in Chicago standpoint”) that he didn’t hit either of the assailants. Despite the rulings, I’m sure that CC is a long way from being socially acceptable in the windy city, and the backlash (“They were good kids!”) from the people would probably have been significant.
You’d think after 16 hours of training …
My thoughts, exactly. Fortunately, there were no innocents around to receive his poorly aimed shots.
(Sarc on) Just goes to prove how important it is that CCW holders should be adequately trained. (Sarc off)
Strike down one more argument from the Antis.
Illinois CCL training is long on gun safety, long on legal issues, and short on range time. Most of the range time is spent waiting in line for your turn to qualify.
Regardless, the fact that he was able to draw and fire in that situation without coming out on the short end amazes me.
15.5 hours of classroom, 0.5 hours of range time.
I appreciate your sentiment regarding taking them out for the good of the whole, but…you do realize that hit rates in real gunfights are about 20%, right? Even for ‘seriously’ trained folks?
My hat is off to him for returning fire and winning in the strictest sense of the word…in Chicago, no less.
If they haven’t found the perps, how are they so certain he missed?
Maybe he wasnt shooting to kill, not everyone with a gun is homicidal every time they draw down on someone
Yeah, I think that’s a pretty good bet. Nobody got killed, and he’s okay with that. Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.
The gang bangers need more range time, they are very unsuccessful at killing each other.
Was this on the TV News ?
Too bad Otis can’t be reached for comment…..
Follow the brown stains on the pavement. Unless they ditch their shorts in a dumpster you’ll find them.
Fantastic! It has been a rough day and I needed a good laugh.
We need to outlaw hoodies. They are dangerous.
You will get my hood it when you rip it from my cold balding head.
Ha!! nicely done.
Stick with watch caps, they don’t interfere with your peripheral vision.
And watch caps don’t protect your neck from wind, cold and rain. Better go with both! Which I’ve actually done, a number of times.
“…when two males in hoodies appeared in a gangway…”
Gangway = Chicago?
a small area between houses. generally down south we call them alleys or “side yard”
Not the same thing as a breezeway? (a sort of covered tunnel between two otherwise attached buildings)
NFA called it. See comments 9 and 12 in the linked post.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1580034/posts
Yep, a gangway is what we call them here. It’s the small space between houses usually no more the 3′-4′ wide. The newer building codes call for more space between houses/buildings, but the older housing stock is packed pretty tightly together.
I had been in my share of them when I lived there, and I for sure wouldn’t want to encounter a couple of thugs in one. Some of them are scary enough as it is.
In the South, it’s generally called a breezeway, which I think sounds much nice. Love breezes. Gangs, not nearly as much.
It’s so nice to hear that all that work potentially saved a life and potentially saved a child from losing their father. Do it for the children!!!
I’m surprised it took this long to have one.
Shots were fired this time. I promise there’ve been more dgu’s that simply weren’t reported because simply having the gun stopped the hostile’s actions.
This is true. This is true.
I’d agree that’s a virtual certainty. If I were a Chicago resident and had a no shots fired DGU, I’d probably keep quiet about it, too. No sense bringing the law down on yourself if there’s nothing to be gained.
Yeah, it takes nine months!
It took about 4 weeks since permits started being issued.
Wow. Tough audience.
How many DGUs were spiked by the media?
Never having shot at anyone, I’m a bit curious as to how someone “properly trained” can “fire several times at the males” at what I assume to be a legitimate self defense distance, without hitting them at all.
Even though I no longer shoot nearly as often as I used to, and should; completely missing two human sized targets, despite firing several rounds at them, just strikes me as a bit less than entirely competent firearms use.
While never being in a gunfight, I have gotten robbed at gunpoint, hence don’t really buy the whole “everything goes out the window in a life and death situation” spiel. While certainly feeling the effects of adrenaline, I had no problem recognizing the perp’s gun, and making note of the make, model and license plate number of his (more like the guy he stole if from’s) car.
Hence, I kind of expect people at least have the basic competence required to hit the people they pull guns on. But I guess they don’t call our “The Age of Incompetence” for nothing. At least the dude had a gun. And used it to solve the problem at hand. Which is the most important part.
Far more shots fired in these moments miss than hit. Training of the individual doesn’t seem to have much effect one way or the other. I’ve come to the conclusion that most people, regardless of just cause, simply don;t want to kill another person.
Exactly what I was thinking. Anyway, maybe missing was for the best. It might have gotten ugly is he had shot one or both of them in the back.
Now these two Sons of Obama will have a chance to see the error of their ways. 😀
Let’s wait a moment, here. While I would never claim to be the best on the planet, I think I would find it hard to miss two adult men who are bordered by two brick walls 42″ apart. Have we heard of ricochets? You would have to shoot high or WAY low in order to miss? A bit low is another ricochet.
Seems to me, if the situation is described correctly, most of the shots would hit ahead of the fleeing perps, and thus richochet down the gangway. They would not ricochet backwards towards the perps.
If the ricochets had hit behind the fleeing perps, he would have been a horrible shot indeed. Am I missing something?
The best bet is that he didn’t want to have to shoot them. And I’m fine with that. Self-defense is about defending oneself successfully, not about vengeance.
He probably shot a few times probably still bringing the gun up as I’m sure he was rushing. It scared them off and it had to be loud in the tiny space he was standing. That and I’m guessing he didn’t want to shoot them in the back.
In these cases, “properly trained” only means that he met the minimum bureaucratic standards unconstitutionally imposed by the Illinois concealed carry laws.
It is amusing to note, however, that even though he drew against an already drawn weapon, a tactical no-no, the perps were so surprised by his response that they did not even get a shot off themselves before getting in the wind. Assuming they actually had a real and/or functional firearm in the first place.
Someone recently published some stats on the status of handguns that criminals use for robbery. I think it was over 40% of such guns are incapable of firing because they are either broken, unloaded, or have the wrong ammunition in them.
Or are not actual guns.
The other side of that statistic is that if a bad guy points what looks to be a gun at you, there’s a better-than-even chance it’s operational.
Personally, I don’t like those odds for assuming it’s an empty threat.
I’ll just assume this was a happy case of “Surprise, Speed and Violence of Action.” I suppose that Chicago thugs are still adjusting to their new reality. Maybe they can talk to some of their Detroit buddies for advice…or not, because a good number of them are, um, a tad indisposed.
As most of us here at TTAG know, fine motor control is lost in an adrenalin dump of this nature, and shooting at targets that are attacking/threatening you in a dynamic environment is a wee tad bit different than shooting the prescribed 30 rounds to qualify for concealed carry in Illinois. That said, perhaps some of this came into play: David Grossman documented that many humans consciously or subconsciously miss when an opportunity to exact lethal force against someone (although the military is learning how to counteract this in more recent decades) presents itself. For a great read, check out http://www.amazon.com/On-Killing-Psychological-Learning-Society/dp/0316040932
Or maybe he just did some sucky shooting after all!
Hit rates in real gunfights hover around 20%, even for those that are well trained.
It’s not “ideal circumstances” in the real world.
Good for him. I live in Cook County,Illinois.From what I understand you DON’T need a concealed carry licenseto carry on your own property. Stepping OFF your property line is a different matter. Nope…didn’t hear about this on the local TV news. Normalizing DGU is a giant step in the right direction.
Way to Go!!!!! Thugs be warned! Chicago is no longer a gun free crime perfect city.
Awesome news. First of many, I hope.
..Er, not that I want people to be assaulted by thugs, but that..oh, hell, you know what I mean.
It sure would have been nice had someone (bad guys) shown up at a hospital suffering a gunshot wound.
That always brightens my day.
On a side note, that sure takes the fun and power out of being a scum bag to pull your gat and the intended victim shoots at you! Really now!!
Many citizens need extensive training on a shooting course, extensive training to overcome the rush of adrenalin in the situation to hit a target. I have seen this situation play out since I was a child. Criminals are shocked that a citizen is prepared with a gun to withstand their display of aggression and force and the law abiding citizen is so shocked to face the situation and has not prepared for that particular situation enough to be very familiar with it and just react and shoot accurately.
It is not good enough to purchase a handgun and get a CCP or take a day or two handgun safety course. You need to take a proficiency course which gives you extensive practice with the gun under duress hitting targets that may be moving and a surprise. That is what my family practices on a monthly basis at a shooting obstacle course.
I am sure glad this CCP holder did not suffer injury or death and that he did what he did. He now needs to take his training farther.
Depending on whose statistics you choose to believe, somewhere between 100,000 (unlikely) and 2 million (maybe a bit high) successful Defensive Gun Uses occur in America annually. I’d be willing to bet a large sum of cash that the vast majority of those people had little or no training in the tactical use of their weapon. In some jurisdictions, such as Washington state and a few others, no training is required at all to receive your (unconstitutional) concealed carry permission slip.
This is not to say that training is not a good thing, it is, and the more the better, within reason, but an awful lot of people do not have the time, money, physical stamina or interest to pursue advanced training. And yet little old ladies still manage to outgun Bad Guys every day.
Perhaps we need to keep in mind that unlike the master criminals we tend to see depicted in Hollywood productions, the criminals don’t have any training either. Other than repetition of their criminal acts they have little or no practice in Offensive Gun Use and as a result they are quite often unable to cope with any situation where their presentation/brandishing of a gun does not result in immediate slavish compliance from their victims.
That’s right, and William Aprill has commented that sometimes a “little” training is actually WORSE than none at all due to the so-called Brown Belt effect (as it’s called in Martial Arts).
There are MANY successful DGU’s for “non-operators.”
First Rule: Have a Gun.
You also need to consider where the thug got the gun. He may have stolen it 15 minutes ago and decided to “try it out” by showing it during a robbery, with no idea how to make it go “bang”. It should be a consideration for any of us when we choose a defensive handgun. Personally, I carry an LCP, which requires only pulling the trigger, a revolver or a Sig would be the same, for example. If someone takes it from me, that person will be able to use it against me (or anyone else) essentially immediately. Other possibilities, like a 1911, have a variety of carry possibilities, most all of which (that are sane) require some other action before a trigger pull will make them fire. I could advocate for either, but encourage you to decide for yourself, just recognize the pros and cons of each.
There was a police study done that showed most criminals with guns have more range time than police. Thats pretty sad.
I believe Otis is the angel over this guy now.
BTW the local Chicago police are trumpeting how many FEWER shootings and murders have occurred over the winter…just in time for 15 people SHOT last night. Brothers don’t get out as much during the WORST winter ever. The spin never goes away.
At the point the description of the suspects is only “one tall male and one short male” why even bother?
This PC disparate impact bulltaint is off the charts.
+100 for “bulltaint”. 🙂
“Oh, and they both looked like they were bla—-, I mean they looked like criminals.”
I know some tall males, and some short ones…I wonder if they’re the attackers?
I’m just glad I’m an average height male, so I don’t need to worry about the cops trying to pin it on me.
Chicago papers are notorious for pussy footing around when it comes to describing suspects. Mentioning race is a no-no in their style books.
Right in Obama’s “homeland”. I wonder if our community organizer in chief ever organized anything besides crime.
Aaaand, this will never be officially recorded because the perps haven’t been ventilated. Regardless, good to hear about it here.
So full of win. Guns are useless when someone had already pulled one on you. Except, not
“Tall male” and “short male.” Anything else?
And the man may have been State-certified to carry a firearm, but it’d be nice if he could hit his targets.
So, you’ve successfully “ventilated” a bad guy in a gunfight when he already had drawn on you?
FBI studies have shown real gunfight hit rates in the 20% range, even for those that are highly trained.
How about we stop with the ridiculous notion that shooting to defend one’s life is somehow equivalent to shooting on a static range with no induced stress, and merely celebrate the fact that this guy SUCCESSFULLY defended his life – IN FREAKING CHICAGO – and he’s not even getting charged?
Geez.
“police search for the two males, described as a tall male and a short male”
Politically-correct-description reporting at its best.
I don’t know. Likely dark out there, faces obscured, adrenaline rush and well-documented recall problems during sudden situations. Maybe the victim just couldn’t give a solid enough description?
Knowing Chicago media, I’d say odds on that Aaron is correct.
Given that this was in the Austin neighborhood, there’s a very good likelihood that both the BG’s and the guy who defended himself are black.
Normal situation, which I would find extremely believable, would be the intended victim could give a really fine description of the gun they held, after which he was too busy drawing and firing to notice much.
It occurred in Austin. Anyone from Chicago knows the race of everyone involved. Good guy and bad guys. It’s places like Austin where concealed carry will help the most and why the $150 fee and 16 hours of training pisses me off so much.
Be of good cheer. I live in Austin, too (TX), and that pretty well describes our CHL as well, from 1994. After 20 years, nobody could justify it anymore, so renewals every 5 years with requalifications, retraining etc, just got pitched, renew online for 1/3 the price. I suspect that in the future the restrictions will continue to decrease until we get back to a constitutionally legitimate set of laws.
There was so little fanfare or noise about our most recent relaxation that I had not heard it coming at all, did not, in fact, even know when it had happened until it was time for me to undergo the requal harassment and I discovered there wasn’t one any more, since last Oct. Even the most rabid antis have a hard time getting footing after 20 years of proof that they are just WRONG!
Then, of course, Cook Co. may keep collecting the big bucks, they are famous for that. And just elected the chief counsel to the Crook-inChief as mayor, they deserve what they get!
Nice, detailed description of the suspects. That will surely aid the community in apprehending the suspects in a timely manner.
Good that ccw holder saved his life. Hopefully this will be a trend in Chicago. I think everytime when a DGU happens in Illinois, we should call it a OD (Otis Defense). In honor of Otis Mcdonald.
Hear, Hear!
Chicago PD announced that they are interrogating 1.2 million short and tall males that match the description.
Fortunately not keeping any of them from a job.
It happened at 2:40 am… in other words, dark. In a dark alley.
You’re not going to see a thing under a hood, hence the non-descriptive physical descriptions.
I’m going to call these “Otis inspired incidents” from now on. And on the day after Mr. McDonald’s death, I would appreciate if we could all put a lid on the racist innuendo.
Indeed.
Unfortunately, a large majority of the crowd here thrives on racist innuendo. I used to like to read the comments here, but I read them, and TTAG in general, much less these days.
In fairness, it’s not a large majority. It’s a small minority. And such deeply-ingrained mindsets don’t change overnight, but I hope every CC Licensee in Illinois will remember that we would not have concealed carry (or handguns at all in Chicago) if not for an elderly black Democrat who stood up and made a big sacrifice.
And that comes from a middle-aged white Republican, if anyone cares.
It seems a bit naive, to me, to not know that you run into some sort of racism anywhere you choose to hang out.
For an eye-opener, try a visit to Compton. Spanish Harlem ( whatever still exists of it). Little Italy. Albuquerque. See if they roll out the red carpet for yo’ honky ass.
The “No charges” part still annoys the hell out of me.
Because obviously, “charges” should be automatically expected.
Sometimes I really hate this town.
I share your frustration, but “no charges filed” is a standard part of any DGU news story, no matter where it happens. Until recently there was no way to fire a gun in Chicago without being guilty of something. It takes time to change a culture.
If you call that a “culture”.
This is fantastic news. We may just have to create a new metric, but it’s also likely one the few times we’ll see a story about this as we head into summer, unless someone gets killed as a result.
Also, keep in mind when you read stories like this from here, that News Affairs is the PR arm of the CPD and reports up to McBeerNuts. The rank and file are pretty pro-gun whereas the leadership are appointed hacks who are decidedly anti-gun.
Illustrating Chicago Crime, Murder and Mayhem at http://www.heyjackass.com.
“Hacks”? You’re being charitable.
Then again, this is a family-friendly website. . .
ATTENTION! ATTENTION! Be on the lookout for “two males…. a tall male and a short male.” If you spot either one, immediately call the police. ///s
> two males, described as a tall male and a short male
WTH kind of description is that? That pretty much covers all men in Chicago, doesn’t it?
He shouldn’t have fired a round!! Instead he should have thrown all of his required permits at them!! No way they would have survived that barrage of incoming!!
More Range Time, but welcome to the wonderful world of CCW, brother Chicagonians.Gee funny how the BOZO lawmakers and police chiefs of that state are AGAIN, proven WRONG! hmmmm go figure, TTAG people must have a crystal ball. Who could ever imagine a CCW carrier defending himself against HOODS[hoodies which is where the term comes from and HELLO HOLLYWOOD Travon Martin supporters who like to wear hoodies]
“More Range Time”
Guh. Please, please stop with this crap. The real world is not as nice and pretty as some think it is.
Real gunfights are messy, sloppy chaotic things. Can’t we just pat the dude on the back without the sideways insult…an insult that has no basis in reality?
I’d guess he was ducking since they had him covered first. Probably shooting in their “general direction” to get them away from him. Kinda like Monty Python’s “General Direction” quote if you remember.
For everyone criticizing his lack of hits I have just one thing to remind you of: George Zimmerman. Get it now?
The Zim was in bad breath range and actually in physical contact with the poor innocent child who was bashing his skull in. In that case it would have been harder to miss than to hit.
Implying that he missed on purpose to spare himself George’s fate. Smart man.
The Ill CCW class is heavy on the legal consequences of discharging the firearm. Guns are bad and dangerous, just ask Rahm and McCarthy. If there weren’t guns, nothing bad would happen.
You do realize they don’t actually believe that, right? What’s a synonym for “ruse”?
For people confused about gangways or want to see the neighborhood, here is a google streetview of the block where this took place.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/5400+W+Van+Buren+St/@41.874783,-87.759649,3a,90y,1h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sESJaD0gZjFIjC6y7hfBlDQ!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x880e336bafb68f7b:0xff8fdb1c0801d265!6m1!1e1?hl=en
Yeah, not a breezeway. Those are covered, because the houses are attached from there on up.
It’s a gangway and let me tell you, if you are a 100# woman heading home after dark (ish) and your two kids are upstairs waiting for you, the gangway is really f’ing scary. Seriously.
Well nowadays you’d probably weigh a hundred and two, maybe a hundred and three pounds.
Probably feel a lot safer, too.
Maybe 104, with a spare mag or two. And a light.
I’d say it was the best possible outcome. No gun confiscation, no charges, no legal bills, no civil lawsuits and no cleanup. His duty is to defend his life, not snuff the local thugs. Leave that to the boys in blue (or is it black?).
I simply relish the “I told you so!” moments when they arrive.
I am sure McCarthy is throwing down a coupla tonight.
Anita Alvarez is throwing down the whole bottle and instructing McCarthy to make an arrest next time.
Maybe the defender missed all his shots because he’s a former NYC cop. Didja ever think of that? Nooooo.
The cost of poker just went up!
Contrary to popular belief, many Chicagoans are pro-gun and conservative. We’re not as liberal as people make us out to be. It’s the laws here that make it seem that way.
It’s the people you elected that make it seem that way.
If they’re such a fragging “majority”, who voted those politicians into office?
See what I did there? Obviously, you statement lacks authenticity.
If he were a ‘White Hispanic’ the media would be all over it .
If only I could convince the government I’m “White Hispanic”. It’s almost certainly true, as some of my ancestors were likely Celts who lived in Spain (Burgos).
Lotsof arm chair quarterbacks here about shooters lack of hitting targets. I would like to see how many of you can hit your target in high stress environments such as that. Not many people are CQB trained or been in battle. He is lucky he is alive, and the thugs are lucky they are alive.
Dontchaknow, the “shot placement” crowd here can do anything, especially the wizened, battle-grizzled Paul T McCain.
😀 However, I really believe the guy didn’t want to have to shoot the would-be perps.
Wait. If they intended to commit a robbery, doesn’t that make they actual perps? I’m asking a question, not making a statement.
Exactly! with the exception of a few soldiers and maybe a handful of LEO’S, very few CCW holders will ever fire their weapon at a threat. Easy to talk crap and say how your Glock can give 1 inch groups at 30 feet and how you have muscle memory dowm to that of a Navy Seal. In reality, you walk through a dark parking lot or between two buildings one night and an amp’d up crackhead decides that your wallet and iPhone are worth more to him than your life is to you. At least this guy got a shot off amd survived a situation. It isnt about hitting or killing, it is about defending your life! He did that and the rest of you that think you would do better better stick to your video games because you are too full of yourselves….those of us that applaud another guy defending himself to the fullest of his ability should learn from even his experience.
The guy probably had a snub nosed pistol. In order to hit something with those you have to be lined up perfectly to hit anything. Not to mention I’m sure the guy didn’t have time to grip the pistol properly and damn sure didn’t have time to sight in on his targets.
There is enough losers and low life’s In Chicago looking to steal that he wont be missing for long.
“…and police were able to determine that he had completed a required concealed carry class and was properly trained.”
Um, if he has a valid concealed carry license, doesn’t that automatically mean he completed the required concealed carry class?
Why did Chicago Police Department News Affairs Officer Michael Sullivan feel it necessary to report this stellar piece of detective work on the part of Chicago’s Finest™?
The fact that he had it is proof that there “must be something wrong, somewhere”.