Expertise: IRS Agents Fire Their Guns By Accident More Often Than They Do Intentionally

By
Dan Zimmerman
-
65
◀Previous Post
Next Post▶

[P]oor firearms training for IRS agents has led to more accidental firings than intentional firings, according to a separate inspector general’s report from 2012. 

“Having the availability of deadly force puts hiring so many new agents into perspective,” Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform, told The Daily Signal.

The inspector general for tax administration “found they fired their guns more times by accident than on purpose,” Norquist said. “I’m not sure if that’s good or bad.”

The poor training was not a new problem, since the 2012 report from the inspector general found similar issues with firearms training. 

“If there is insufficient oversight, special agents in possession of firearms who are not properly trained and qualified could endanger other special agents and the public,” the report says. 

The 2012 report not only found that IRS agents fired their weapons by accident more times than intentionally, but that the agency concealed details about the accidental discharges. 

“There were a total of eight firearm discharges classified as intentional use of force incidents and 11 discharges classified as accidental during FYs 2009 through 2011,” the report says.

And, the inspector general’s report continues, “we found that four accidental discharges were not properly reported.”  

It says that “the accidental discharges may have resulted in property damage or personal injury.” 

The public report, however, redacts four references to unreported accidental discharges of firearms. 

— Fred Lucas in 4 Facts About IRS Gun Arsenal

◀Previous Post
Next Post▶

RELATED ARTICLESMORE FROM AUTHOR

65 COMMENTS

  1. Shclicters books becoming more real everyday.
    Fed agencies will be the go-to employment for any degenerate looking to pop a cap into racism and privilege.

    • Some of the recruiting videos tell me that’s exactly who they want to hire. Combine that with the soft purge of people refusing the government mandated experimental vax. Something’s going on.

      • “Something’s going on.” Its called totalitarianism. Taking full control of the masses which is typical in communist regimes. EPA armored up years ago also.

  2. *The inspector general for tax administration “found they fired their guns more times by accident than on purpose,” Norquist said. “I’m not sure if that’s good or bad.”*

    It’s bad.

    *There were a total of eight firearm discharges classified as intentional use of force incidents …”

    Sure would be interesting to read up about the particulars of those incidents.

    • Perhaps the 87,000 brown shirts can collect some drug tax in Chicago…good luck surviving that.

      I recall OJ tried to collect like an IRS agent but he went to prison.

      Until the Rat Party is out America is on its knees funding the frauds behind the climate change hoax who funnel funds back to Rat Party election coffers. They blow smoke up America’s butt and America pays for it or the IRS will get you.

    • I think he’d be better suited for the Kapitol Keystone Kops.

      He has the correct political views and has practical experience in executing unarmed females.

      Now if he’d just leave a loaded pistol in a bathroom.

  4. It’s what happens when public servants are given firearms but no actual proper training (hey, ammunition is expensive!).

    • this is what happens when public servants are given firearms, period.

      accidental firearms discharges by ordinary armed citizens (not law enforcement) is less than .0003% annually over average 8 million such armed citizens (including those who carry lawfully without permit in constitutional carry states). For public servant civilian law enforcement its around .01% over an average of 500,000 annually, and for federal law enforcement its 2.6% over all federal law enforcement annually.

  5. “Civilian National Security Force.” He further promised it would be “just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded as the US Military.”,,, Someone forgot the just as ‘well trained’ part.

  7. Armed tax collectors.
    Will they also shoot your dog?
    Dangerous motives.

    Citizens well-armed
    Interpreted as a threat
    Citizens demise.

  8. On my property, shouldn’t I be able to insist tax agents disarm before entering? Or does their federal agent status over-ride my private property rights?

    • No… if they do not have a warrant you can demand and require they disarm while on your personal private property. You can also demand and require they have no types of recording devices if they do not have a warrant. If they do not have a warrant you can also demand and require they leave at any time you choose.

      • Overall law enforcement, federal or state or County or local, without a warrant (or in hot pursuit or have probable cause with exigent circumstances) are no more privileged to enter the private property of another than the general public. And just as a private property owner can do to the general public who wish to enter their private property a private property owner can impose restrictions on fedral law enforcement also.

        • Some people are legally allowed to trespass. It depends on the state. The reason is, some people have to trespass in order to do their job. I don’t know how it works with law enforcement.

        • An example:
          Section 472.029 of the Florida Statutes allows the Professional Surveyor and Mapper and his/her employees the right to trespass when necessary for a Surveyor and Mapper to perform his/her duties.

        • Thats easement and right of way type stuff… law enforcement has no such general permissions unless with warrant, in hot pursuit, called to the property by the owner, or ‘probable cause’ (which includes emergency or actual public safety threat).

        • That’s not just for easement and right of way type stuff. That includes any part of your privately owned, easement free, fenced in, no trespassing sign posted yard necessary to complete the job. States could make similar statutes for tax collectors to check up on assets and such. Blue states would be all for this.

          The surveying statute includes necessary tools for the job. Government agent tools could include firearms.

        • If you request warrantless law enforcement to get off your property and they do not comply, call your county sheriff. If he is a constitutional sheriff, he will handle the situation. May soon need to keep the sheriff’s telephone number on speed dial.

        • @Dude

          “That includes any part of your privately owned, easement free, fenced in, no trespassing sign posted yard necessary to complete the job.”

          That’s what I meant by “easement and right of way type stuff” – those provisions are included or inherent in the laws for such, for example, its is state ‘right of way’ for a state surveyor to enter your private property to conduct necessary survey for boundaries but its not state ‘right of way’ for a state surveyor to enter private property to conduct a survey for a state project next door to your property and they need permission. The fact that they just do it sometimes does not mean they do not need permission and are not subject to the property owners rules.

          “The surveying statute includes necessary tools for the job. Government agent tools could include firearms.”

          not true. Although a surveying statute includes necessary tools for the job, it is not true that law enforcement is also covered under the same thing.

          Law enforcement is different, they have an obligation to not enter property without legal law enforcement related justification in context with performing law enforcement duties under laws and constitutionally and those would be as I already stated. So absent those, law enforcement has no ‘right’ to just enter private property as they desire and they are not permitted to assume they have a legal standing to do so and a private property owner can set the rules to deny them entry or the conditions under which they may enter or remain. Its a little different if its private property open to the public as a normal routine thing, for example, a grocery store or an ‘attraction’ or ‘recreation’ type of thing – then law enforcement can enter freely with their firearms but the property owner can still ask them to not be armed on the property.

          being not armed does not deny law enforcement the capability to still be law enforcement, for example, that thing where the ATF showed up at that guys house wanting to see his firearms they still could have done that without being armed (even though what they did was illegal anyway – they assumed authority they did not have in law and was never granted them by congress) – whereas denying a surveyor their equipment does deny them the capability to be a surveyor.

        • Right-of-way is used to describe the right to travel along a specific route, like a road, driveway or a trail. It doesn’t describe walking along an undefined path on private property. That would be called right of access. What I’m describing is right of access. I mentioned that there would need to be specific state statutes that would allow IRS agents to access your property and carry their “tools of the trade.” If that is possible, then that could be the future in blue states. That’s the trajectory we’re in. We’ve seen states try to pass crazier laws. Red states wouldn’t stand for that for a second.

        • This is another reason to make sure we convert the purple states and strengthen the red states. We can use state power to fight the federal bureaucracy overreach.

        • @Dude

          “Right-of-way” vs ‘right of access’

          While by dictionary definition you are correct in wording, but right-of-way also applies to that access to a property for purposes of traversing the property for a reason used by the ‘state’ that may not be defined in law. Right of access on the other hand is the implicit right in law granted in law for any reasons the ‘state’ exercises which are valid and legal.

          There is no such right of access or right-of-way for law enforcement unless they are justified under those reasons I stated previously and then if they did have those reasons it would be right of access. We are talking about entering the private property absent those reasons by law enforcement so it would be right of way without a valid reason.

          The second law enforcement enters your property absent those reasons they are technically ‘conducting a search without a warrant’. To enter a private property without a search warrant, law enforcement must be justified (to clarify) :

          * in close (hot) pursuit of someone they believe has committed, or attempted to commit, a serious crime.

          * to sort out a disturbance, or if they hear cries for help or of distress, or to enforce an arrest or search warrant, or if invited in freely by the occupant.

          * for non-federal law enforcement, under various state statutes which give the police powers of entry into a number of different kinds of premises on the property.

          Federal law enforcement always needs permission unless under those above except that they can not use state law to support a federal reasoning to enter. The private property owner can demand and require they not be armed or on the property absent those reasons.

          Absent those reasons…If you allow them to enter with your permission or allow them to remain without telling them to leave you have automatically waived your protections under the fourth amendment. This is why they start talking right away (e.g. the ATF in the recent video), they want to keep you occupied and not thinking about telling them to leave so they can stay on the property longer in hopes of seeing/hearing something that gives them an ‘articulate’ reason to search without a warrant (a probable cause type of thing) and they are going to say that you did not tell them to leave and thus waived your fourth amendment right.

          note: a judge can issue a court order to enforce police entry for purposes of red-flag laws enforcement/enactment – the entry without a court order for red flag purposes is at very best dubious unless the justification is clear and exigent (e.g. person in the actual act of harming them self or others) – guessing or ‘someone said’ or ‘saying it could happen’ are not justifications constitutionally.

        • I can tell you from personal experience listening to the lies coming from the witness stand that law enforcement lies about probable cause frequently and the judges accept the most outlandish tales imaginable. I had an astounding conversation with a l.e.o. whom I considered to be upright and law abiding. He dumbfounded me with his defense of lying on the stand to establish probable cause. He would have been the last one that I would have guessed lied about probable cause, but he thought it was perfectly all right. Apparently the word “perjury” was not in his vocabulary. The last time I checked perjury was still a felony. In this county some poor fool got convicted of lying about some eagle feathers and it was a felony offense. Luckily the case was so lame he didn’t get prison time but just local time and a fine. As an aside, the eagle feathers had been around for a very long time. Nobody knew how long. The eagle was probably killed before it was illegal (no, that is not a pun) so it wasn’t like a recent killing that would upset the ecology or turn the earth into an oven or some such.

        • Old Lefty, I have news for you. You are the liar. Most law enforcement officers tell the truth on the stand. the problem is criminals can’t handle the truth.

    • Umm . . . you need a .40 and willingness to “use deadly force” to answer the phone???

      Yeah, that makes sense . . . to dacian the demented dips*** and MajorStupidity.

      The Dims clearly (i) see the disaster they are facing, come November, and (ii) desire to build up as much of the fascist State as they can, and inflict as much pain as they can on the plebes.

      Stock up on ammunition.

  10. Looking at the types of people they are training leads to some very sobering thoughts. Most of these folks are going to die quickly in any violent confrontation with irate taxpayers. They are not the types of people who should be in that type of law enforcement program carrying a firearm. This current administration is so completely incompetent that it defies any rationale or logical basis for understanding except that they are hell bent on turning this Country into a socialist one and have totally neglected to understand their own culture and history. They are going to fail and they are going to be soundly defeated. They are the ones who will wind up in jail.

    • With all due respect dprato:

      What makes you think these new “Agents” are going to have pocket protector’s and calculators” ???

      People these Dim’s are EVIL ! What would be simpler than have 87K Army of Killer’s? That’s what they want, another Federal army ! Look @ all the sheep walking around w/ MASKS still!
      “WHY”???? It was a hoax! Masks in their own cars, by themselves! Walking in a park! or even stoopider JOGGING ! “The IRS said yesterday (they didn’t really but follow along will ya?) A study by “whoever” (doesn’t matter) say’s Gun owner’s are KNOWN Tax Evader’s ! There has been an ‘up-tick” in Tax Fraud w/ FFL dealers and Ranges ! The SHEEPLE will Bahhhhhhhhhhh,” it Must be true MSM wouldn’t Lie about that! “” Kill all Trumper’s and Gun Owners!” …. Some “Extremist’s may not be thinkin’ Extreme Enough (bye the bye, I said that, no cut’npaste for me “Darcy”)

    • There’s little opportunity for grift in a simplified flat-tax system.

      I prefer the Fair Tax, myself. It’s just as likely to be implemented.

      • I don’t think the Fair Tax would ever pass. Think snowball in hell chance. It’s too high when combined with local and state sales tax, and once you reach a certain threshold of income, it doesn’t matter. In other words, it also favors the extremely wealthy.

        A solution would be a combination of the two systems. Have a lower national sales tax. That ensures every single person contributes. Also have a progressive, zero deduction (forever) income tax beginning with $500,000 of income. That would free up both small business productivity and require a much smaller bureaucracy to oversee it. It would be a win-win for everyone except the politicians and their mega donors, which is why it will never happen.

        This is why it’s important to work on a primary purge and complete remake of the Republican party. There’s too much infrastructure in place to create a viable third party in our lifetime. There’s no need to reinvent the wheel when we can just improve it. There are real patriots out there who are interested in doing the right thing for this country.

        • Then the wealthy that would have to pay actual taxes will just raise the prices in their stores and we wind up paying their taxes again.

  12. No where in any of this (unless I missed it) does it say anything at all about NRA certified instructors conducting the training. I think THAT is a key point to be made that means more than most of what’s being said here.

    The NRA does still have a very important job to do. Our government turning it into the model of evil and the damage this organization does to itself is shown quite clearly in the very issue this article raises.

  13. “The inspector general for tax administration “found they fired their guns more times by accident than on purpose,” Norquist said. “I’m not sure if that’s good or bad.”

    That would be bad duh mass.

      • Actually, depending upon where the bullet landed, it might be considered good if it took out a fellow agent, not permanently, just enough so that the agent could retire on a lifetime pension and not need to be a hired gun stooge for the IRS.

  14. U.S. Law enforcement unfortunately are one of the most untrained forces in the industrialized world. In a study on more than one hostage situation law enforcement ended up shooting the hostage’s after storming the building. Although the Far Right always seem to beat up on the French their tactical teams saved hostages in situations that no one thought was possible. I might add the British SAS gets extremely high marks in hostage rescue situations as well. I give zero marks for U.S. cops.

    And in the mention of the British SAS where few people own handguns their professional training prove that even with people who never grew up with handguns it is possible to train them properly and professionally with them. In other words in the U.S. where gun ownership is common there is no excuse for cops shooting people accidentally.

    The Special Air Service (SAS), a special forces regiment of the British Army, initiated “Operation Nimrod” to rescue the remaining hostages, abseiling from the roof and forcing entry through the windows (Iranian Embassy siege)

    German Police get 3 years of intensive training before being able to enter law enforcement while in Capitalvania, where life is considered cheap and expendable, some cops get as few as 4 weeks training and they seem to think they can solve all problems with a gun and execute people for a burned out tail light bulb. In the latest Akron, Ohio tragedy the cops shot an unarmed man 60 times. Because of this outrage as well as the George Floyd murder there has now been formed an International European commission to look into human rights violations by U.S. Cops who are considered no more civilized than cops in some 3rd world countries.

    Its absolutely outrageous that you have more of a chance of surviving being arrested in China ,where cops only killed 4 people in 2012, as opposed to Capitalvania where they average 1,000 slaughters a year. In Germany that year cops only killed 12 people. In Capitalvania that year 1,200 people were gunned down by cops.

    THE WEAPONS USED.

    The preponderance of accidents with firearms are exacerbated by the type of weapons given to the average untrained U.S. Cop. Massad Ayoob revealed that when cops had their various striker fired guns without manual safeties taken away from them and were given heavy double action only automatics that were designed for police like the various Sig and Beretta double action only guns that accidents with firearms and accidentally shootings went down dramatically.

    I might add the worst possible gun to give a cop is the striker fired pistol that has no manual safety as a light single action pull results in them shooting people accidentally. The examples are many and tragic. Cops and citizens handle guns and react very differently in a crisis situation than they do on the shooting ranges.

    Back in the 60’s I remember reading an article in Outdoor Life magazine that was titled “Early Blur”. It dealt with hunting accidents and how hunters in the excitement of a hunt often saw game that was not wild game but were human beings but their minds made them think they saw an animal to shoot. One very tragic accident that comes to mind was a former city woman who moved with her husband to the country. During deer season she went out to hang wet cloths on the cloths line and was wearing white mittens. A hunter caught a flash of white (her gloves) and shot her dead.

    Why mention the above??? Because “Early Blur” relates to Cops seeing guns where no guns exist and then shooting people when they are under stress and undertrained. Many innocent people were shot when holding nothing more than a cell phone and one man was on his phone in his own backyard when gunned down by untrained cops.

    In todays Capitalvania you are far more likely to die by gun fire from an untrained cop than by a street criminal or maniac. In Capitalvania money is paramount so cops are not given adequate training and people are considered expendable.

    • dacian the demented dips***,

      There MIGHT be a kernel of actual rational thought buried in that rant. Translate it into actual English, and I could say for sure.

      What is amusing is that you, an absolute, total ignoranus in all matters relating to firearms, would presume to comment on the knowledge and training of others. It is to laugh.

      Go back to your circle jerk, dimwit.

    • “Dacian! OH My GOD!!!!!” So much Stoopid so little Time! Just quick off the top of my head I have a Question! Was the woman hanging up laundry wearing her Hi-Viz Vest ? Huh? “What was she thinkin’ ? Everybody knows Deer LOVE to do laundry! They like that ‘foresty’ smell !
      “Cops and citizens handle guns and react very differently in a crisis situation than they do on the shooting ranges” . Um, super phucking duh! YA THINK? Darce, Have you ever fired a gun before? Now, BB’s @ State fair’s don’t count “D”. In the middle of the S***! I stared @ a Bullitt hole in the windscreen for far too long ! Amazed I wasn’t hit! (I was), yeah, I would say people (even trained soldier’s) Will have the possible Bidepends unloading the first few times you experience Combat. In the world of “cut and paste” what’s the worst you experienced buddy? a ‘stuck’ key? an annoying Ad ‘Pop up’ from Wikipedia to donate keep interrupting your Trolling???
      “Its absolutely outrageous that you have more of a chance of surviving being arrested in China ,where cops only killed 4 people in 2012, as opposed to Capitalvania where they average 1,000 slaughters a year”.

      Seriously? China? Dink Cops killed (4) people in 2012…. How about .4 seconds?????
      Have people experimented on you without your permission???
      Unexplained Lapses in Reality?
      Thought you had more ‘med’s’ than whatz in the bottle in the morning ?
      Do you look in your ‘buzz lightyear wallet’ to remember who you really are sometimes ?
      Does the Kool-aid taste ‘different’ this morning?
      Now, some could see me as ‘picking on the disabled’ or Harassing the mentally Ill….?

      But ‘whoever you are’ I truly find you distasteful. You are Unamerican. ( and that’s really not good) You are no stinkin’ Brit either ! You are a parasite, a leetch, Livin’ for the moment when TTAG dinks into your Inbox. Cops aren’t perfect, Gunner’s aren’t either. But we POTG (I jus’ love that!) are trying to DO SOMETHING HERE ! Prepare ourselves for another ‘Stiky Wicket’…REAL soon! What do YOU bring to the table son? That’s right. 0.
      There may be a time when ‘Friends’ are all you’re gonna have…..are you prepared?

      Jus’ sayin’

    • Dacian is a case study of a pathological liar.

      “Pathological liars may be even bolder. They ”continue to lie when they know you know they’re lying,” Ekman says….”

      Can Compulsive or Pathological Liars Change?

      “In Ekman’s experience, most liars who are compulsive or pathological don’t want to change enough to enter treatment. Usually they only do so when directed by court order, after they’ve gotten into trouble, he says. Or they do so after their lies have resulted in dire consequences such as bankruptcy, divorce, or loss of a career.”

      https://www.everydayhealth.com/emotional-health/truth-behind-pathological-compulsive-liars/

      Do you think that a “red flag” law could be used to justify intervention in such case of an obviously mentally-disturbed individual? I say we give it a shot. (SWIDT?)

      • Would an individual that was rich and connected and lied on the form 4473 about not using drugs ( and was filmed using a crack pipe ) be in legal trouble ?

  15. Taxtation is Theft.

    Make not only the nfa history make the irs and fed history and make btc + gold, silver and osmium the legal tender !

  18. Accidental discharges are firearm malfunctions. These are rare. Negligent discharges are user malfunctions. These are common. Calling them “accidental” is an attempt to minimize the result of bad training and poor practices. There are no “good” negligent discharges. Norquist is clearly clueless per firearms and firearms safety.

    • @Tredlight

      Accidental firearms discharges are not necessarily firearms malfunctions.

      An accidental discharge of a firearm, also known as an unintentional discharge of a firearm, is defined as discharging the firearm at a time not intended by the firearm user.

      If a user intentionally aims a firearm to possibly fire if needed but then fires not intending to at the time because it was not needed, that is an accidental discharge. That is the context of the article, that these people are not trained well enough to understand the use of deadly force and would employ their firearm and because of lack of suitable training in firearms handing would have their fingers on the trigger when they should not, thus ‘accidental discharges’ happen. By fact of them handling the firearm out of its holster in supposed performance of duties, with the typical training that they point the firearm when its out of the holster means an intent to use the firearm at some point if needed, that is not negligent and is intentional then it remains as to when they fire and if it was necessary and intentional at that moment or simply, for example, lack of training and/or experience or even nervous reaction.

      A negligent discharge occurs when a firearm discharges (fires) at a moment when the user didn’t intend it to. This could be either accidental in carelessness (e.g. finger on trigger while drawing or holstering, picking the firearm up with finger on trigger) or malfunction (extremely rare to the point of almost does not exist).

  19. THat was ten years ago and I hope things have improved somewhat.
    Most of those students look as if they’ed need help tieing their own shoelaces. I cannot see any of them putting the fears of hell into the eveildoer can you?
    I mean some of themm are drawing weapons directly behind each other. Really? ANd what is the guy oiin the wheelchair doing. ? THere’s nothing remotely funny about arms traing but most of them seem to find it highly amusing?

    • Albert the Fake-Limey, Fake-Military Wanking Poofter of a Subject,

      Perhaps they were anticipating your entry into the room to teach them and “set them straight” . . . and didn’t want to be rude by laughing uproariously. Wanker, you couldn’t find your arse with both hands, a map, and a flashlight.

      Sod off, swampy.

    • Arms training can be funny, it just depends on your BAC and whatever happens to be downrange.

  20. Yawn. Old news/propaganda. Those pics are from 2017 and they show accounting students–not IRS agents–during a seminar about what it’s like to be in law enforcement. Not saying actual LE is much better but to suggest these are actual agents is just a straight lie.

  23. Twitter labeled this as out of context because they say it’s a recruiting video. But guess what – that’s what the caption says.

    So the out-of-context scare label is in fact misinformation. The caption does not claim it’s a training program as the false Reuters fact check claims. The caption accurately describes it as a recruiting exercise AS TWITTER ACKNOWLEDGES IN ITS BOGUG FACT CHECK:

    https://twitter.com/i/events/1560526307481358336

    “A spokesperson from Stockton University, a public university in New Jersey, confirmed images shared online “were taken by the university at separate educational workshops in 2017 and 2022” for students interested in learning about alternative careers in finance and accounting”

  24. Watching that video, all I could think of to compare it to, was the SWAT Team scene in the movie the “Blues Brothers.” “Hut, Hut, Hut, Hut…..”
    There are very, very few true accidental discharges. 99.9% are Negligent Discharges.

Comments are closed.