ghost gun 80% arms
(JWT for TTAG)

As expected, the Department of Justice has published its proposed new rules for 80% lowers and frames, what politicians have derisively dubbed “ghost guns” in order to demonize home-built firearms. The proposed rules, released in a typical Friday afternoon Washington, D.C. news dump, would in effect kill most of the 80% lower business, requiring serialization of the parts and NICS background checks for those who buy them.

Polymer80 80% pistol ghost gun
Courtesy Polymer80

As earlier leaks of the proposal revealed, the rule would significantly broaden the definition of a firearm. Under the new rules, any part that can be “readily completed” into a receiver will now be treated as a receiver and regulated as a functional firearm, complete with serialization and background check requirement.

According to the ATF’s summary, a . . .

…[W]hen a partially complete frame or receiver parts kit has reached a stage in manufacture where it may readily be completed, assembled, converted, or restored to a functional state, it is a “frame or receiver” that must be marked.

Weapon parts kits with partially complete frames or receivers and containing the necessary parts such that they may readily be completed, assembled, converted, or restored to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive are “firearms” for which each frame or receiver of the weapon would need to be marked.

What makes a part or kit at the “readily completed” stage? That’s a good question and one that the ATF won’t be anxious to answer. Keeping that unclear leaves the agency able to make up the standard as it goes and enforce the new standards in its typically vague and opaque way.

Courtesy ATF.gov.

In a Rose Garden speech on gun control last month, President BidenHarris announced that he wanted “ghost guns” regulated under the Gun Control Act of 1968. The ATF’s proposed new rules would do exactly that.

AR-15 80% lower
This will now have to be serialized and you’ll have to fill out a 4473 to buy one. (Dan Z. for TTAG)

While we’re still sifting through the details of what the ATF is proposing, it appears their new definition of a receiver will also address the prosecutorial problems they’ve had resulting from the fact that neither an AR upper or lower (or many pistol frames, for that matter) strictly fit the legal definition of a firearm.

From the ATF’s summary . . .

Under the proposed rule, a “frame or receiver” is any externally visible housing or holding structure for one or more fire control components. A “fire control component” is one necessary for the firearm to initiate, complete, or continue the firing sequence, including, but not limited to, any of the following: hammer, bolt, bolt carrier, breechblock, cylinder, trigger mechanism, firing pin, striker, or slide rails.

Any firearm part falling within the new definition that is identified with a serial number must be presumed, absent an official determination by ATF or other reliable evidence to the contrary, to be a frame or receiver.

Here’s the DOJ’s press release . . .

The Department of Justice today issued a notice of proposed rulemaking that would update the definitions of “firearm” and related parts for the first time since 1968. The proposed rule would modernize the definition of “frame or receiver” and help close a regulatory loophole associated with the un-serialized privately made firearms that are increasingly being recovered at crime scenes across the country. These unmarked firearms, known as “ghost guns,” are often assembled from kits that are sold without background checks, making them easily acquired by criminals who otherwise would not be permitted to possess a firearm.

“We are committed to taking commonsense steps to address the epidemic of gun violence that takes the lives of too many people in our communities,” said Attorney General Merrick B. Garland. “Criminals and others barred from owning a gun should not be able to exploit a loophole to evade background checks and to escape detection by law enforcement. This proposed rule would help keep guns out of the wrong hands and make it easier for law enforcement to trace guns used to commit violent crimes, while protecting the rights of law-abiding Americans. Although this rulemaking will solve only one aspect of the problem, we have an obligation to do our part to keep our families and our neighborhoods safe from gun violence.”

As the proposed rule explains, from 2016 to 2020, more than 23,000 un-serialized firearms were reported to have been recovered by law enforcement from potential crime scenes — including in connection with 325 homicides or attempted homicides. The proposed rule, once implemented, would help address the proliferation of these un-serialized firearms in three ways:

      • To help keep guns from being sold to convicted felons and other prohibited purchasers, the rule would make clear that retailers must run background checks before selling kits that contain the parts necessary for someone to readily make a gun at home.
      • To help law enforcement trace guns used in a crime, the rule would require that manufacturers include a serial number on the firearm “frame or receiver” in easy-to-build firearm kits.
      • To help reduce the number of “ghost guns” on our streets, the rule would set out requirements for federally licensed firearms dealers to have a serial number added to 3D printed guns or other un-serialized firearms they take into inventory.

Once the proposed rule is published in the Federal Register, the public will have 90 days to submit comments. The Notice of Proposed Rulemaking can be viewed here.

To learn more about the rulemaking process, please see the attached.

In response, Lawrence G. Keane, Senior Vice President and General Counsel for the National Shooting Sports Foundation had this to say about that . . .

We will carefully look at the proposed rule and will gather input from our members. The details will matter. We are fully aware of the impact that this proposed rule could have on the firearm industry and gun owners in general. We are interested to know if the proposed rule is consistent with what we saw in the leaked draft documents or if it has changed and what those changes might be. NSSF will file comments concerning the rule.

As the DOJ’s release states, the public will now have 90 days to comment on the new regulations, after which time they will totally disregard all of that input and implement the new rules anyway.

 

 

 

221 COMMENTS

    • Not just the ATF; the unaccountable Administrative State has got to go.

      It’s nothing more than “He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.”

    • The tyrant in question is Biden/Harris. Lesser tyrants have been hired to carry out his/her policy. Dogs have fleas. And big fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite ’em. And so ad infinitum.

    • When tyranny becomes law rebellion becomes duty.
      We will not comply.
      The prisons will be full, of Democraps.

      • Missouri Mule……… Agree 100 %, we will not comply. When citizens do not comply with capricious edicts by their oppressors, then they no longer matter or have control or standing. THEY WORK FOR US ! We need to let King George know that he and his minions can go to hell, do not pass goal, and do not collect $200 .

    • Nobody mentioned (that I noticed) precisely where these “rules” are coming from, other than GCA ’68. Well, GCA ’68 was implemented over 50 years ago if you’re math challenged, new “interpretations” are a bit late. If you wish to commit to such stupidity, pass a damn LAW! I won’t be paying any attention to bullshit just made up by ATF. I would advise folks who put together these kits to hammer a serial number on them, nobody will have any ability to check whether that number is recorded anywhere except on the gun so who cares?

      • I referenced that. GCA 68 was a congressional bit of legislation signed into law. The ATF just can’t change that. now it’s scary ..?? I’ll be polishing my barrel shroud and shoulder folder thingy.

        • They wont know. Here’s the thing; if you are ever found with one while doing something legal like transporting it, or going to the range, you will be charged. Hell, an ex can turn you in if you tick them off. They (the unserialized weapons) become a liability for the good guys, and the bad guys won’t care about adding a silly number on their gun. This wont stop any crime, but it will create a lot of new criminals out of the good guys (by design).

        • Ghost, anyone who produced an un-serialized arm of any type prior to this statute taking effect, has immunity from being prosecuted and losing his arm. Article I, Section 9 of the U.S. Constitution clearly dictates to government that: “No… ex-post-facto Law shall be passed.” Since they were legal before the law was enacted, they can’t criminalize you for having one prior to, or after that. This is clearly ex-post-facto law and will be challenged in court as such. But here’s the kicker – since lowers of this type are not serialized, any built after the statute takes effect, can be claimed to have been built prior to that. They have no proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that it wasn’t. Another fact is that Article 1, Section 1, dictates clearly that: “All legislative Powers herein… shall be vested in Congress…”. This means that any rules, regs, etc. that are made solely by a bureaucracy or a letter agency, is colorable, are not lawfully binding and deserve only a middle-finger salute. The same it true of executive orders that constitute law. EOs of that type are unconstitutional.

  1. Like I said in another reply, in Michigan, one was always required to register any 80% firearm, once completed. Nothing new here! Sucks for everyone else too, now!

        • Rainy day, just in case, the ability to have what you need without them knowing.

          I’ll take them being in the dark about what I have 100 out of 100 times.

        • “Rainy day, just in case, the ability to have what you need without them knowing.”

          What he said…

        • Well yes, but who buys one without plans to build it?

          I originally bought an 80% lower just to see if I could get it right, Then I bought a shitload to have on hand should another actually fail… Then I bought a bunch of trigger assemblies (just in case), various pins and springs a few “extra” pistol grips and damn before you know it I have enough stuff to build 50/60 complete lowers… I’m not a “Nostradamus” by any means but I’m a firm believer that history repeats…

        • @MADDMAX,

          Same here. I have multiple frames, parts, etc.

          ‘Cuz you never know what the wolf at the door is going to try next.

        • I have an 80% that I use as part of a telescope that I have no intention of completing

      • Incorrect, as a legal matter. Unless you are a “manufacturer” (and an individual hobbyist is NOT, unless they then go on to ‘make a business’ out of selling the product’ – technically, the federal law allows you to build a “ghost gun” (HATE that phrase!!!), but you are required to ‘serialize’ it before transfer – but that requirement is both unenforceable and unconstitutional).

        So, if I personally build a gun at home for my own use, I have no obligation whatsoever to serialize it (California purportedly requires it, but Commiefornia can osculate my anal sphincter). If Gropey Joe purports to impose such a requirement by EO or administrative rulemaking, that doesn’t make it “legal” or constitutional – and I predict it will be widely ignored).

        • and I predict it will be widely ignored).

          Yuppp… Step aside Nostradamus, you have been replaced…

    • A) there were ways around it
      B) there is no legal way to register a home built pistol in MI. The RI-060 (and i think the ri010, but it has been decades since i needed one) asks for the information of the buyer and the seller. In the case of building your own, you are neither the buyer NOR the seller. Putting yourself down as either is willfully submitting false information on a government document, which is a bigger crime than just plain not registering ($250 find for civil infraction). Sure, the police will tell you to do it anyway because they really want guns registered, but having a records clerk give you wrong information does not absolve you of the crime. Call and ask them about it, emphasizing the angle of submitting false information and see what they say.

      • Well, if Washington is going to ban assault rifles then that makes AR15’s safe and legal to buy, sell, and own since AR15 rifles are not assault rifles.

        • AR15 rifles are not assault rifles.

          Maybe by ANY common sense standards the AR15 in obviously NOT an assault rifle, however we are talking about the government (ALL of the government) and they come up with their own definitions of what makes a gun an “assault rifle” so if YOUR rifle has two or more of the “identified parts” such as a pistol grip, flash hider, threaded barrel, barrel shroud with the thing hanging down, adjustable stock, detachable magazine, any number of “secret parts” or is just a scary black gun it just might be a (govt. defined) assault rifle…

        • That’s not very comforting, considering that there is only ONE DISTINCTION between a semi-automatic AR-15 and a fully-automatic AR-15 (yes, there are such things, they are what ‘M-16s’ were before getting that nomenclature from the USAF). and that is the ability of selective fire. Other than that, the guns are the same, and there’s just no getting around that by playing semantic games.
          ANY AR design can become fully automatic with a reasonably small amount of machining, punching one extra hole through the lower receiver, and installing a full-auto bolt carrier, firing pin, different hammer, trigger, disconnector, selector lever, a pin, a little sheet-metal flapper, and a tiny spring. All but the hole for the pin, and the machining for the flapper and coil spring are ‘plug and play.’ If one doesn’t want to go the trouble, a bent piece of cheap steel, or a cut-up wire coat-hanger, can do the job.
          The battle for the semantic high ground has been lost; We are NOT going to convince anyone on the Outside that ARs are not ‘assault weapons’ or ‘assault rifles,’ because that ship sailed long ago and isn’t coming back.

    • Well, cea, in TX there is no registry, and forming one in DC from 4473s is a federal felony, so doesn’t suck much here.

    • Just register everything. Take the chip. Don’t eat animals. Drive electric. Allow yourself to be tracked and profiled. Government and corporations would never do anything that would harm us.

    • JUST BEND OVER BE HAPPIE, YOU GET TO HAVE LOTION AND SPIT. BITE THA PILLOW AND SMILE.

    • What is WRONG with you?! Drugs? Alcohol? Dementia? Non-English speaker? Too much spoodge in your keyboard?

      • No, ‘bob,’ 3 people don’t understand why every one of NTexas’ posts are in all caps, disjointed, nearly unintelligible, and mostly inarticulate. 3 people can’t figure out if he’s Libertarian, Liberal Progressive, a serious SuperFudd, or just tetched. 3 people really would like to understand his point of view, so that they could maybe respond to him coherently.

        Oh, ‘bob,’ this isn’t sarcasm. Just so you understand.

    • Really? Don’tcha think you might to see what happens in 2022 and 2024 before you start a civil war? People got what they voted for.

      • By then it will be too late. The “we’ll get’em next time!” crap only gets us buried deeper and deeper beneath the sh!theap of history. Likewise, the “I can’t stand up for my rights because I’ve settled down and have a family!” crap is bogus because the Feds will torture and enslave your family forever if honest Americans don’t stand up for themselves.

        • “the Feds will torture and enslave your family forever”

          You mean like the American South did to Black folk for 200 years?

        • “You mean like the American South did…”

          Overgeneralize much? It’s people like you that perpetuate prejudice against the South.

        • You mean like the American South did to Black folk for 200 years?

          No, he probably meant, like the American Southern Democrats did to Blacks for 200 years and the American Northern Democrat Carpetbaggers and KKK did to Southern Blacks during “reconstruction” and the American Northern Wealthy Democrats did to Blacks and children in their factories… Or like the American Democrats voting against voting rights for Blacks and Women AND the Civil Rights Act of 1964…

        • Yeah, Minor IQ, those Southern DEMOCRATS were straight out rat bastards, weren’t they???

          Interesting how much more sophisticated people like you have gotten, hiding your white sheets and hoods – but you still haven’t given up either your racism OR your authoritarianism. That’s OK, we saw through your BS years ago. The Democrat Party – home of racists, authoritarians, anti-Semites, misogynists and sexual deviants for 200 years! What a proud legacy!!!!

      • I don’t start wars, civil or otherwise, large or small. But I have ended a couple.

        As for the future (I presume you are addressing elections), that will be whatever it will be – largely irrelevant to the general population. If you haven’t noticed, legislation and associated regulations and enforcement thereof, has been relegated to the same status as pronouncements from Hollywood movie and tv personalities.

        • “it’s a problem“

          Nope, not a problem, infinitesimal given the millions of votes.

          Usually, it’s just a mistake or misunderstanding, except in cases like this where the Trump voter intentionally cast his dead mother’s ballot for Donald Trump.

        • “…not a problem, infinitesimal given the millions of votes…”

          And you know this because of the results from the independent audits and fraud protections we employ, especially last year? /s Or are you just regurgitating the Democrat talking points as usual?

          “Usually, it’s just a mistake or misunderstanding, except in cases like this where the Trump voter…”

          Oh yeah, I almost forgot. In your world only Republicans do bad things.

        • “And you know this because of the results from the independent audits and fraud protections we employ, especially last year?“

          Yep, even Donald Trump’s very own attorney general of the United States of America, William Barr said that the election was fair and impartial.

          If you have evidence to the contrary you really should present it in a court of law. Maybe you can do a better job than Rudy Giuliani, Lin Woods, Sidney Powell, et al.

        • “Yep, even Donald Trump’s very own attorney general of the United States of America, William Barr said that the election was fair and impartial.”

          And you hang onto every word Barr says just like you hang onto every word in the Bible when it suits your needs. You’re the most disingenuous person I’ve ever interacted with. You didn’t answer my initial question because you can’t.

          Please link to the independent audits of the states that Barr looked at.

      • Everything they get away with now just sets up the next guy a little better… Stop Obama 2.0 or 3.0 WILL finish us…

        • Inflation, debt, ignoring immigration law and allowing 100,000 illegals per month (what’s the population of your town?) to abuse the system during a pandemic no less, shutting down industries, destroying jobs, paying people not to work, and they’re barely three months in. They’re literally just getting started. And FOOLS were complaining about Trump. USA’s adversaries are laughing at us.

      • SHTF reality. 2022 and 2024 dont matter. The dems cheated in 2016, yet they still lost. So, they decided to “refine” cheating. They proved how to do it in 2020. Cheating is now a science that the democrats have perfected. 2022 and 2024 need to be previewed by a real SHTF civil war. Without the SHTF moment, 2022 and 2024 will be a repeat of 2020, from now into eternity! Without SHTF, all, repeat, ALL is lost for the great experiment of the United States of America! Without SHTF, we WILL be China by 2030.

  2. Now both my lower and upper receiver will be considered a firearm, each requiring a serialized number and transfer through my FFL?

    • I’d argue you can go crazier than that. As the bolt carrier is visible externally through the ejection port when the latter is open, and holds the bolt, the bolt carrier itself arguably fits the definition of a firearm in itself, and must be serialized. The same would be true of the bolt on most bolt-action rifles, which are externally visible and house the firing pin.

      • This is really simple.

        If you have a gun part that can be readily attached to another gun part to make a subassembly, and you can readily obtain other gun parts that either form subassemblies or can be readily attached to another part to make a subassembly you already possess or have assembled to make a subassembly, and if those subassemblies if assembled can form a ‘firearm,’ then that gun part is also a ‘firearm,’ or a ‘constructive firearm.’

        So, if you have an AR grip, say, and the crush washer for a flash hider, you’ve pretty much got yourself a ‘firearm’ there, Sport, because all you need to commit mass murder are the unimportant bits in between.

        /sarc.

        • Not exactly. If you have a ‘constructive firearm,’ comprised of said AR grip and a crush washer, that’s one thing; Add ‘ammo’ to it, and you have an ‘arsenal.’ Or maybe it’s a ‘hoard.’ Or ‘cache.’

    • Treat them the same way auto makers do serial numbers – One (basic) number follows the engine, transmission, and chassis.

      Like how a ‘numbers matching’ old car is worth more than one that isn’t…

    • This was my fear as well, but it looks like upper receivers are okay as-is. Digging into the “proposed” pdf, they have a section with examples of how the new interpretations would apply. On PDF Page 86 is the AR-15 style, which seems to indicate that the ATF views the lower receiver to be the actual receiver/frame. While I think that is at odds with the actual wording of their definitions, that appears to be how they are interpreting their interpretation of the of the law with regards to AR-15s, which is the same as they’ve always viewed it (be it right or wrong).

      So I think we’re safe on uppers. I don’t know how their interpretations will help them legally in what is or is not a firearm though. The actual law isn’t changing, and their interpretation isn’t really changing. They’re just more formally stating what they consider when considering what is a firearm. That feels to have the same legal weight as the current situation.

      • “We’re safe on uppers”
        until the ATF decides to read the rules differently and redefine words, just as they have in the past.

      • You know they have already declared tat the safety harbor .50 bolt action uppers that fit on AR lowers are separate firearms, right? Each one is serialized and gets shipped to an FFL.
        If you put a suppressor on one, you’d be shooting 3 firearms at once with each pull of the trigger under the new definition…

        It would be clown shoe stupid to think they won’t try to do it with regular uppers when they get the chance.

        • Eventually, any combination which fires a projectile will be illegal, allowing government’s favorite trick, selective prosecution.

  3. I thought the GCA of 1968 determined what was a firearm? How does the ATF get to change what is already law?

      • Chevron does not apply to laws with criminal penalties. Per the recent sixth circuit ruling on bump stocks:
        “[The] Chevron deference categorically does not apply to the judicial interpretation of statutes that criminalize conduct,” the court explained. “Because the definition of machine gun…applies to a machine-gun ban carrying criminal culpability and penalties, we cannot grant Chevron deference to the ATF’s interpretation.”

        • Ok, can you cite cases for the other circuits or the Supremes? Otherwise it only applies in the 6th.

        • Otherwise it only applies in the 6th.

          If another Circuit decides otherwise you have a conflict and you’ll probably have SCOTUS, by necessity, sort that out.

          One way or another, you’ll find out for the whole country.

          There’s always room for lawyerin’. It may not do any good but they charge by the hour so what do they care?

    • This^^^

      I believe the definition of a firearm is in a legitimate law passed by the legislative branch. An unelected bureaucracy redefining what the legislative branch defines seems more than a little out of line.

      • “I believe the definition of a firearm is in a legitimate law passed by the legislative branch.”

        No law regarding weapons of any kind is legitimate.

        • Be nice! A law defining firearms is perfectly legitimate, it tells the government precisely what shall not be infringed.

        • Y’all want hear something “deep” and true? The key word here is “Arms”, to which the government, by order of the supreme law, “shall not be infringed” (the order of the Framers, to the government, present and future, clearly expressed in the compact). Any attempt, by a public servant (agent of “the government”, ie, legislative, executive or judiciary officers, all sworn to the contrary) to “infringe” upon said ‘people’s right’, is warring upon a provision of the Constitution, which is treason (re: Cooper v Aaron, 358 US 1 [1958]). Furthermore, it is fraud to alter the terms of any compact or contract to the detriment of said document’s beneficiary(s), the American people in this instance. Fraud voids any compact/contract and anyone that attempts to alter it without the agreement of each and every party to it has committed a fraud. There have been many infringements (frauds) of the Second Amendment – and EVERY other provision of said Compact by the general government, and of the states governments, who are bound by it by Article VI, and of articles of their own state constitutions. Therefore, Americans now live in a Constitutional Republic with no lawful government because the “principals” of the compact have been willfully breached, thereby voiding said compacts. Can we do anything about these felonies which has been perpetrated upon us by those we have elected to do our public business? If we don’t soon, don’t expect to have ANY rights because we’ll be living in the communist sh*thole of these traitors making! We’d better get busy soon, if anyone can come up with a workable solution to extricate ourselves from the lawlessness being perpetrated upon us! NUFF F’N SAID!

      • “FIREARM: fire-arm \ ‘fi(-e)r-arm (noun) – any material, part, component or subassembly that can, sometimes with the aid of more parts, a skilled machinist, and a complete set of sophisticated machining tools, or a 3D printer, or common hand tools, via the wildest stretch of imagination possible and possibly defying all logic, be used as a weapon to discharge a shot, or some other object, by gunpowder, smokeless propellent, match heads, compressed air or gas, or plasma, or magnetism, or electrical energy, or a spring, or coiled fibre, or a string, or a rubber band.”

        –US Government Dictionary of Legal Terms, 2021 Edition.

    • all their flyers now seem to contain…”in the opinion of the attorney general…etc..etc”….and we all know who that is….and who he represents…

  4. Connected to 325 homicides in 5 years? I’d hardly call that epidemic in a country of 320 million…

    • That’s what I was thinking. Also the number recovered from “potential crime scenes”. Whatever that means.

      • Every “ghost gun” is the location of a potential crime scene, and we’re all going to be gun-violenced to death unless politicians and bureaucrats Do Something ™! That’s what it means.

      • “potential crime scenes”

        If you have a “Ghost Gun” in your home that is a “POTENTIAL CRIME SCENE”… My house will be a potential “Crime Novel”… Molon Labe…

    • and “Connected to” means it was in the possession of, not necessarily used by, the attacker, the victim, or a related third party.

      • Exactly. So, we are concerned about enforcing our dominion over items which we don’t know even exist? Are we going to tear every structure in America down to the studs, to discover every possible violation of a stupid and unenforceable, and MEANINGLESS, law, or, preferably, fire every legislator of any stripe or persuasion who has voted in favor of a completely nonsensical and unenforceable law? And perhaps hang them, if they cannot repay the costs?

    • I wondered how far down I would have to read before I had to type in that question. Glad you asked it. What about grandfathering existing guns. And what if people have uncompleted existing frames? And then one should ask about the older black powder rifle kits that were not numbered. Sure sounds like infringement. I also agree with Joe John, 325 crimes in five years doesn’t sound like an epidemic. Much like ARs, once they ban these and nothing really changes, what will be the next stepping stone? The number of 23,000 seems high to me. That must include guns with numbers ground off, not just 80% parts. And reading the receiver change, sound like both the upper and lower would need numbers now, but so would the slide and frame of a semi-auto pistol.

      • Exactly. ‘Unserialized’ is suspiciously vague. Why didn’t they just say, “23,000 80% lowers”?

        • I think the vast majority of “un-serialized” firearms were previously serialized firearms that had the serials ground off.

        • Maybe. However, previously-serialized guns that have had the serial numbers obliterated are wildly different animals than guns that just never had serial numbers, and if there was any honesty among government critters, they’d be listed separately.

          Possession of a firearm without a serial number, if it never had one, is not a crime under Federal law; Possession of one that has its serial number obliterated, ‘altered,’ or substantially defaced IS. I suspect that they’d be crowing loudly if they’d recovered so many guns of that nature.

          The implication of this ‘un-serialized’ claim is that vast hordes of criminals, White Supremacists, Conservatives, and inner-city yutes have given up on stealing or street-purchasing (or even -Gasp!-legally buying) factory-made guns and are instead wasting hours of their time better spent on crime and Being Supremacists building kits. This spare time, of course, is especially difficult for inner-city yutes to obtain, as it has to come from the time that they normally dedicate to tithing, walking old ladies across streets, and building Habitats for Humanity when they are not becoming rap stars and completing their post-GED doctorates.

          The others, not so much.

        • I don’t think we are talking about anything which has been “discovered”, more likely conjured from thin air. Can they list for us the make and model of each such firearm? I suspect some can, as they will simply make that up as well. “Well, 11,542 of them were AR-15s, 1,622 were AR-10s, …” and on and on. How about SHOW them to me, all in a pile, or you are a liar.

      • There could have been several un-serialized guns at the same crime scene so might be 100 crime scenes with 3.25 guns at each one, ergo, 325 crime scenes..

      • All I see in the proposed regulation deals with sales.

        Nothing discusses existing unserialized firearms except for those coming into FFLs from gun owners.

    • They’re giving current Personally Made Firearms (PMF) 60 days to have a licensed gunsmith or FFL put on a serial number (7 days for new ones). Pre-68 guns that weren’t serialized still don’t have to be. I see a big issue with the serial number needing to be engraved on a metal plate, but plastic frames might not have one and this can’t comply. Again, they’ve taken legal firearms and made them illegal without compensation.

      • Read the regulation, it applies only to PMF’s that are held by an licensee either in their personal inventory or in their business inventory. There is nothing in the regulation proposing that INDIVIDUALS must do this. And the ATF simply can’t regulate that, because the provisions of the law don’t allow them to do anything like that. They have a TON of leeway on how they treat FFLs, but they don’t the general public.

        Basically their NPRM says that 80% are going to get treated like firearms from here on out. Now any prohibited persons who have one and get caught (that aren’t complete) are going to get treated like they have a gun now, not just prohibited persons who have a completed one, and thus a firearm under today’s laws and regulations.

        Of course DOJ might still have a hard time with a prosecution, but at the same time, the law does says a firearm is anything that can be readily converted and frankly, it is going to be hard to mount a defense that you’ve got all of the parts, but half an hour with a dremel isn’t readily convertible so what you have isn’t a gun. If you just had an 80% receiver, you could probably win the argument based on the text of GCA1968. ATF can say they’ll reinterpret it anyway they want to, but it won’t hold the force of law as that isn’t what GCA1968 says.

        But they WILL be able to hold FFL’s to that new interpretation, as their license is contingent on following ATF regulations. Now maybe they won’t win a prosecution again an FFL that decides to keep producing 80% and selling them, but if they also have an FFL, they are for sure going to lose that. Also good luck with the prosecution if DOJ does decide to nail you to a door. Maybe you’ll win, after some really expensive litigation. That’s generally not the business environment the vast majority of businesses want to operate under.

        So, in all likelihood you’ll see all 80% moving forward being serialized and transferred through your FFL.

        Interesting that the ATF is changing the serialization requirement by adding the city and state, as well as part of the FFL# to the serial number. I wonder if they have a particularly good reason for that, or if it is because they know it won’t fit on most existing “PMF” engraving plates? I’d checked a Poly80 AR lower and the engraving plate already won’t fit my full legal name, city, state and caliber like my state as well as a unique serial number was proposing to go on PMFs. Poly80 940s V1 compact and V2 full size could fit it, barely.

        Now since I’ve only looked at the summary, not the full NPRM I can’t tell you how boned FFL-03s are with PMFs. They are often not treated as a “licensee”, but I can see the ATF saying “too bad, so sad” on the PMF bit. Hopefully not.

        On “split receiver” firearms. Yes the ATF could change their mind again. But based on this NPRM they are being clear, existing guns are grandfathered in on what is serialized. New guns the ATF will issue a determination letter on what part of the firearm needs to be serialized after the manufacturer submits a sample to be evaluated. Yes there is the lovely example of the 50BMG uppers. ATF’s argument there is that traditionally bolt action rifles it is the part that the barrel attaches to that is considered the receiver, thus the bolt action 50BMG AR upper receiver was the firearm, full stop. They view it as attaching an AR fire control group to a bolt action rifle.

        Of another note, this was for IMPORT. The ATF and government in general has a ton more leeway there.

        Of course it is the wet dream of the ATF to serialize every part and every part must go through an FFL with a 3 year waiting period and a $2000 tax stamp on each part. Sure, sure.

        But when it comes down to it, ATF just wants to make sure SOME part of a gun can be considered a gun and must go through a background check so that someone cannot just slap together a gun at home. I have an issue with that, but I see where they are going with it. So no, I don’t think the ATF is going to start try to issue a rash of determination letters saying all AR uppers need to be treated as firearms. They want to try to have something defensible that an AR lower is actually the firearm and also that they’ll decide what part is a firearm moving forward (see sig chassis pistols).

        • the lord’s prayer on the head of a pin.
          they’ll want it micro- engraved.
          only readable via loupe.
          or qr code.

        • Here’s a couple things I think “they” forgot about that might come back to bite ’em in the back-side in courts of law:

          1) Article I, Section 1 clearly dictates to all government entities that: ‘All legislative Powers… shall be vested in Congress…’. This means the BATFE and the DOJ are forbidden from making laws. And if it’s done through executive fiat (orders), that is also in violation of Section 1. These are treasonous acts for “warring on the Constitution” (Cooper v Aaron, 358 US 1).
          2) There’s also that pesky little mandate of Article I, Section 9, that forbids Congress from enacting “ex-post-facto Law”. Therefore, if it was lawful for Americans to possess un-seriated “arms” previous to the enactment of this new fiat and unconstitutional regulation, the BATFE and DOJ can do NOTHING about the ones produced prior to the unlawful enactment of said fiat regulation. Since the ones produced prior are exempt from this reg., any smart gun-builder that produces one after the law goes into effect, can just say it was produced before the reg. went into effect. There’s no registered serial # to prove that it wasn’t and the feds have no way of proving otherwise, especially if said 80% lower was acquired secretly.
          3) 80% lowers will become real popular items on the black market. Russian companies sell them cheap online today, and they aren’t gonna be put off by any BS American laws that can’t enforced against them. I’m sure that many other foreign companies will join in producing them and selling them online. This whole fiasco is gonna be like the Prohibition era all over again, but this time with partially machined chunks of aluminum or polymer. And there’s not much the alphabet agencies can do about it.

    • Go put a mark on each one before this crap goes effective
      We already know that they consider anything marked where to mill is more than 80% and is complete. Just go put a sharpie “X” on one of the spots that needs to get filed off or mark where a hole will get drilled. Now it’s complete, according to the ATFs own interpretations.

  5. So basically they are going to drag their feet on defining “readily completed” before they are ultimately forced by a court to provide a definition several years down the road? Meanwhile, the plaintiffs who ultimately “win” their case have been out of business years ago.

    • “…before they are ultimately forced by a court to provide a definition several years down the road?”

      They will enact it, a judge will issue an injunction, and it drags out over years…

      • Just like the courts did with bump stocks… oh, wait, it took 4 years to even get an injunction… let alone a ruling on the merits of the case…

      • Many people are saying the the Trump University School of Law was severally underfunded, believe me!

      • Or normal, logical, nonpartisans can complain about both. Cry me a river over Orange Man Bad. You got what you wanted. He’s out, and here you are still complaining about him.

        • lol. I’m not a partisan and I still see people wanting to get him elected and calling it 4d chess. It’s insane. Next we are going to get another socialist because people don’t want freedom. There was no outrage. I can’t count the amount of times people said “It’s just a bumpstock who cares” If it’s not Rand Paul or Thomas Massie type running. I will vote for a write in or third party again. Like a true freedom loving person should.

        • You know what else? the people who called it 4d chess are terrible human beings. Entire businesses were destroyed by that. They don’t give a shit who gets hurt.

        • It was wrong for sure. It wasn’t a deal breaker for me because of the extreme threat from Puppet Joe & Company, but I said it was wrong from the beginning. A functioning court system would toss the rule change, and let the legislature make the laws.

        • Yeah I voted for him the first time. He grew the tyranny so I didn’t the second time. I know you opposed it but voting for it again is not going to shrink the tyranny. Now we are having executive fiat gun control again just like the bump stocks. He gave gun grabbers more power. Until someone who as at least even slightly rights oriented is nominated I can’t vote for a Repub president. They have some decent people locally.(no good local ones where I live. Just democrats with a traditional culture christian bent) Almost none federally. Like 2 or 3. If Republicans can win after violating the constitution like that I don’t even see the point anymore of any of it.

  6. I’d REALLY like to know what they got the statistic that more than 23,000 unserialized guns had been recovered from potential crime scenes. First of all, what the heck is a potential crime scene? Taken literally, it would be a scene where a crime could take place, but actually didn’t. Most local law enforcement agencies do not even track the number of unserialized guns. Even the few that do, the yearly roundup is usually in the single digits, if not zero. This data even flies in the face of the DoJ’s own data from their 2016 “Source and Use of Firearms Involved in Crimes”. Note from this study only 1.3% of prisoners interviewed obtained their gun from a retail source. Even when the San Diego press tried to do its part to hype “ghost guns”, the comment was made “some of the ghost guns she’s seen are poorly made, making them more prone to misfiring and much more dangerous than a legitimate firearm”. Yeah, it’s not a piece of cake to make a reliable, functional firearm from parts – let alone machine them properly from the 80% state. And, BTW, it is also illegal for someone who is prohibited from owning or possessing firearms to finish out an 80% lower. Does law enforcement just not get that criminals DO NOT obey the law! The problem is the people with criminal intent and actions, not the instrument itself.

    • LEOs know that. They just want to make the potential criminal pool larger so they can keep their jobs.

    • Don’t worry, California plans to reduce the sentences and penalties for gun crimes. see it works out. Make it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to defend themselves and go soft on crime.

    • Red flag enforcements – Hence “potential”. These weapons were never used in a crime and were obtained/confiscated unconstitutionally.

  7. Bit by bit this will continue as long as the racist and genocidal history of Gun Control is hush hush and kept off the table either by history illiterates or by self serving congressional gutless wonders. Are you hearing me mitch mcconnell et al?

  8. Just think, Dad used to have a gunm sent via mail from Sears. No background checks, no permissions slips. But now , lordy, lordy.
    And guess what “powers that be”, your never going to stop crime no matter how many laws and infringements you pass.
    This is about stopping crime isn’t it?, Nah didnt think so.

    • Not saying I’m old, but… I remember when you could buy used military Enfield .303s at Roses with no paperwork. what ever happened to the good old days?

      • I’ve bought gunms out of Western Auto and gunms from gunm stores with no paperwork, but never through the mail.

        • Lee Harvey Oswald got his mail order from Klein’s Sporting Goods.
          The Feds did nothing.

        • I still have the .22 my Dad at the Western Auto when he was there to get a carburetor for the station wagon. My Granddaughter gets it next.

        • Robert T,
          And then GCA arbitrarily set the cutoff date 7 years after the invention of LHO’s Carcano, so you can still mail-order one today!

        • No. It’s not ‘date of invention,’ it’s ‘date of manufacture.’

          A Modelo 1891 Carcano BUILT before January 1, 1899 is an ‘antique,’ and can be bought unrestricted (by Federal law) by mail. One built on or after that date is a ‘curio and relic,’ and can also be bought by mail, but only under a Federal Type 03 C&R license.

        • John in AK,
          I understand the “date of manufacture” distinction completely. If that were not so, one could mail-order Win 92 / 94, or even early Maxim, replicas as easily as flintlocks or cap’n’ball 1858s (Bliss!).

          Still, do you not see the irony? Stunned by the Kennedy assassination, Congress identified a contributing “loophole” (“Any cuckoo, felon, or child can buy an 1891 Carcano through the mail. We have to DOOO Something!”), radically transformed the law to create ass pain for tens of millions of peaceful gun owners – and yet that law does NOT (even 53 years later!) make it legally impossible (or even difficult) to buy an 1891 Carcano through the mail.

        • Your point is accepted, with a small correction: No fully-automatic firearm, or a ‘modern’-cartridge-firing rifle or shotgun with a below-legal-minimum OAL or barrel length (unless specifically exempted as a C&R, as are some short-barreled lever-action rifles), are exempt from the provisions of the NFA. You can freely own a small-bore antique Gatling, or a Nordenfelt, those being manually-operated guns, but not a Maxim.

          However, you should be reminded not to give ‘Them’ any ideas. Apparently, they do not know about those ‘antiques’ that fire modern ammunition that were built between 1886 and 1899, and we don’t want to draw their ire.

      • John in AK,
        I half-concede😉. Subpara. 5845(a) says “other than a machinegun or destructive device” in carving out the “antique” exemption, without reference to any of the short-barreled stuff. I’ll get back to that momentarily.

        It’s hard to argue because so much of this is not law, but their interpretations. One one hand the plain text of Subpara. (g), “Antique firearm”, only exempts non-rimfire / centerfire, or rimfire / centerfire “no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available” – but we both know this is not the case in practice. I doubt they “do not know”, because dealers routinely, publicly sell pre-98s chambered for common cartridges.

        Once you get into the Handbook and website, the layout confuses matters further. It again never says that a pre-1898 factory SBR is an SBR, but does show a drawing saying that an SBR made from a cartridge firing antique is an SBR (which could be justified per the text). OTOH, it shows that a pistol made from a cartridge firing antique is an SBR, which contradicts the plain text of the law (it is neither shoulderable, nor “made from a rifle” since the cartridge-firing antique was not legally a rifle).

      • When I was a kid, in N. California of all places, there were M-16s, and BARs (the real thing) for sale at the Army/Navy store. Also, Western Auto had Thompsons. Needless to say this was prior to the FFA of ’68. Shoulda asked Dad to buy me a few. GEEZ I’m old!

  9. First off, Congress makes laws to be signed by president, Letter agencies don’t make laws. Second, a 80% receiver is not “readily completed” unless you have skills using many hand tools, or a Bridgeport milling machine. The simple tools required can easily cost as much as a completed firearm and up to tens of thousands of dollars for more advanced tools. Most criminals are too stupid and too lazy to invest multiple hours with hand tools or tens of thousands for high end equipment This is a non-issue, and just more gun confiscation in disguise, to remove access to guns by law abiding citizens

  10. the public will now have 90 days to comment on the new regulations,

    I have a comment… Hey, ATF/DOJ GFY… I guess I’ll have to break into my stash and build me some scary ass “GHOST” guns… OOOOOHHHHHH…. OBTW as long as the state of FL says I can build “UNREGISTERED” firearms for my own personal use then I will continue to do so… I have a box full of 80% ARs and a few handguns as well…

    • You can make all the gunms you want, just make sure they use matches for propellant and rocks for bullets.

      ” Look their worried about the gunms, and we’re shutting down the ammo. Keep’em mushroomed with the gunms.”

      • While this doesnt affect me it’s still another nail in the cruxifiction of gun owners. Like bump stocks deb. lt ALL matters!

      • Look their worried about the gunms, and we’re shutting down the ammo

        I’m not worried about the guns, I have more than I’ll ever use and I’m not worried about ammo I have WAY more than I’ll ever need… I’m one of those terrible “hoarders” that bought thousands of rounds at “REAL” prices after the last “shortage”… So I guess I’ll just kick back and wait to see if anyone comes knocking at MY door… Hint, send unmarried orphans with no children, or NOT, I don’t care, but ANTIFA would be ONE preference… (especially the badasses harassing motorists in Portland with guns)

        • LOL, I just had to look. In my stash , 220gr30-06,$10 72, some FMJ Ball M-2 $6.25, man those days are over.

  11. Notice the wording about “each frame or receiver”, and the definition of receiver so broad multiple components of most guns would qualify (upper and lower receiver on an AR15, receiver and bolt on a bolt action rifle, grip and slide on a handgun, etc.)

    The intent here is to get away from the idea that each gun would have a single bottleneck component subject to background checks, tracking, regulatory hurdles, expenses, etc. and apply those things to several, and eventually ALL, components of a gun.

    • Well, we’ve got at least 90 days to do whatever we wanna do. So limber up that plastic and buy stuff.

      • Use the 90 days to flood them with comments…

        • Why? They wont even read them. Their liberal, progressive, socialist, gun grabbing minds were made up long before they published the intent. 90 days. They are just acting like they really, really want to hear a conservative opinion. They dont. BUY, BUY, BUY, and F em.

    • That is the intent.

      If one has a ‘receiver’ that nobody in Government knows about, and therefore cannot control, and can then buy a barrel and internal parts that also are not known to Government, and thus also cannot be controlled, making it into a firearm that nobody in Government knows about, and thus cannot control, one can then foment hate, discontent, mayhem, insurrection, and White Supremacy without let or hindrance, because things.

  12. Not really surprised by this.
    Time to buy as many 80% lowers you can now.
    Get the mill later.

    • Get the mill later.

      Don’t wait too long, that will be next… Any machinery (mill, drill press, table, vice, hand drill, drill bits, Dremels, files, lathes, sandpaper, work shop and/or any other device that can be used in any way to build an unregistered firearm WILL require registration AND a license/permit to operate AFTER you sign the papers swearing that you will NOT use any regulated device to manufacture, complete or repair any illegal/unregistered firearms… After the required 6 year waiting period your permits will be issued (one per device) at the nominal fee of $500 each… Then they will start on the reloaders… Welcome to East Germany circa 1950…

  13. I’m curious to see what would happen if some enterprising individual packaged and sold two pipes a cap and a nail as a kit. Because apparently the ATFs idiocy is fueld in large part by petty popularity.

    Would hardware stores everywhere need FFL’s?

    • Social Distancing comes to mind. There is a bureau of oxymorons tucked away somewhere in a Washington office building

  14. I wonder if that ATF even realizes that after they pass this BS gun law, that next year…… they’ll recover more than 23,000+ *stolen serialized firearms* that will be reported to have been recovered by law enforcement from potential crime scenes — including in connection with 325+ homicides or attempted homicides. And that they’ll have taken away yet another constitutional right from law abiding citizens, that actually will no NOTHING to stop criminals who already do not obey gun laws.

    Naaa, I seriously doubt. Not a chance.

    • Well probably most of those gunms had the serial numbers ground off or it could mean the numbers weren’t on the gun registry list. I doubt 23,000 were made from 80% lowers

  15. Stasi Pigshits in the ATF taking their orders from Beijing Bootlicker Biden and that little Democrat Party Billionaire Donors Class like “Good Soldiers” just “Following Orders”.

    This new rule proposal does the folliwing:
    1). Requires Serial Numbers on all firearm parts.
    2). Completes the Microstamping Agenda.
    3). Will drive up attorney fees for all of the Gun Industry (Put them all out of business).
    4). Creates a National Gun Registry in violation of FOPA.

    • F-Troop always wants to be the lackeys of the Democrats, and hope to displace the FBI as the preeminent domestic law enforcement agency.

  16. It is important that we all make reasoned comments on the rulemaking. The ATF/DOJ is required to address/respond to all valid comments in their rulemaking (they have to articulate their logic for not listening to reasonable feedback if they implement the rule anyways – which they most likely will). This sets up a situation where the courts can then invalidate the rule as being arbitrary and capricious because the agency did not follow proper rulemaking procedure under the APA by not adequately addressing the comments before implementing the rule.

    Don’t rant and rave in the comments, because the agency can ignore those, but they must respond to/address reasonable criticisms to justify their final policy decisions… if they don’t, it sets them up to being overturned.

    • What reasoned comments? They seem to have come down with the Hillary virus.
      Now the rant rave comments, yeah, we’ve still got those, and are fixing to do something about those people.

      • You have to make reasoned comments attacking the validity of the ATF’s regulation as being arbitrary, undefined, against precedent, whatever. The ATF is required to address those types of comments. Comments/arguments not made in good faith (example: “F THE ATF, REPEAL NFA, GOT DOGS TO KILL?” etc.) don’t have to be considered or responded to under the APA.

        If tons of people make reasonable arguments for why the ATF shouldn’t do X, and the ATF does X anyways, then the court will evaluate the ATF under the APA to see if the legitimately addressed the valid concerns raised… if they didn’t, then the court can throw out the rulemaking as being invalid under the APA because the ATF didn’t follow proper procedure… OR the ATF’s reasoning in refusing to adjust the rulemaking based on the comments could be ruled as arbitrary and capricious by the courts.

        • ATF’s reasoning in refusing to adjust the rulemaking based on the comments could be ruled as arbitrary and capricious by the courts

          “Common good” is the only reason they need…

        • “the ATF’s reasoning in refusing to adjust the rulemaking based on the comments could be ruled as arbitrary and capricious by the courts.“

          Exactly! Stop whining and bitching, stop threatening to kill your political opponents, and make reasoned and thoughtful comments opposing the proposed rules change.

          That’s how our country works.

        • We get it, Minor IQ,

          In “Progressive World”, the ATF is under no obligation to be legal, reasonable, or act in a Constitutional manner, but WE have to be reasoned, calm, and deferntial in opposing their efforts at authoritarianism. Or, we can do what we will end up doing ANYWAY, after they adopt this POS, and ignore the hell out of it. Or at least I would, if I hadn’t already lost all my 80% lowers in that tragic canoeing accident.

          I am not morally obligated to afford teh Gummint more respect and deference than they afford me. In case you haven’t absorbed the “vibe”, we’re all getting quite tired of being rogered by authoritarian @$$holes like Gropey Joe Biden – oh, and his sycophant supporters, like, oh, I dunno . . . Minor IQ, enuf, Serpent Vision and the nameless brainless troll??? GFY.

          Molon labe also applies to 80% lowers. I envision lots of body bags resulting from any ACTUAL effort to enforce this. But you and your fascist friends don’t care, so long as you think it will only impact conservatives/libertarians, amirite??

  17. Their press release says their new rules “would update the definitions of “firearm” and related parts for the first time since 1968.”

    Didn’t they just hand a victory to the other side in the inevitable lawsuit? The definition of a firearm is in statute, an executive branch agency may interpret law that isn’t black and white, but it can’t “update” the law.

    They literally just lost their first bump stock redefinition case in Texas for that reason.

    • The agency that administers a statute (in this case the ATF) has broad discretion to define what terms mean under that statute as long as the follow valid procedures under the APA.

      • That’s true of cases after the proposed rule has been accepted and published. In the meantime, they’re torpedoed all prior and outstanding cases by saying AR-15 style lowers don’t meet the current definition and cited the cases that say so.

    • The Proposed Rule has not been published to Regulations.Gov yet. You won’t be able to comment on it until it is.

      • Explain to me in no uncertain terms how a tabletop mill, which has no internet or cellular connection, keeps records of what it cuts? Aluminum stock isn’t a controlled item, neither is brass which can be substituted; likewise aluminum cans can be smelted into a suitable ingot.

        You may be able to keep records with a 3D printer from major US/Chinese controlled manufactures, but given they can be made in literal third world junkyards, I’m certain we the people can brew up an open source solution.

        Even if you require an internet connection to every new-manufacture 3D printer and give it a database file hashes to look for, the software and phone home connection will be cracked and rendered moot fairly quick. Likewise the file hashes change completely if one bit of information changes. Trying to find out what parts are based on tolerances is an exercise in futility because they can be split up any number of ways and new guns can be engineered; the files of which are not in any database of known files.

        If nothing else, you can literally cast a resin AR15 lower, or if you want something stronger, make a mold and cast aluminum lowers. I’m looking at a Devil Forge right now simply due to the price of copper and that scrappers don’t want to pay me a fair price for it.

        • Explain to me in no uncertain terms how a tabletop mill, which has no internet or cellular connection

          First of all you don’t need the fukin internet to keep records… All they need to do is REQUIRE all machine shops to be registered/permitted, then REQUIRE those shops to keep records and attach heavy fines for noncompliance… Make it costly enough and you WILL get compliance… Private owned equipment? Offer rewards for snitches (worked in Cuba), make it a Federal offense with MADATORY jail time for unregistered ownership… Are you so dependent on the internet that you can’t think beyond that as any other possibility? 3D printers can also be regulated by registration requirements for printers, parts and the material required to manufacture stuff… Put heavy enough penalties on noncompliance and again you WILL get compliance… There are endless ways for the Govt to fuck you, they did it to the POTUS, a SCOTUS nominee, a retired General… How do you think you would fare if they came down on you…

        • Dependent on the internet? Hardly. Internet connectivity is simply the best method to forcing compliance; anything less than hash lists, software and hardware registration at the point of purchase, and collecting print data for analytics is an exercise in futility.

          Requiring key files to be downloaded from the manufacturer’s server prior to allowing the printer to run would be a cornerstone of controlling it; even games picked up on this but they are still inevitably cracked. There is very little that can be prevented purely from the software side of things and if nothing else, someone will reverse engineer one and make a guide to solder inputs to the PCBs, flash, remove / replace chips, etc.

          What you suggest is an unenforceable “law” which will be inherently disregarded. Littering, poaching, and even trespassing all come with heavy fines an yet they are violated anyway. I suppose you could make it a felony with mandatory minimums but that will only be enforced along political boundaries; the controlled cities will find compliance while everyone else continues to live free.

          No one will want to be on the receiving end of the backlash when grandpa goes to prison for that dusty old Southbend in his barn.

          Snitching may be a thing in the city, but out here in the sticks, we hear no evil, see no evil, and speak no evil. No way am I turning in the few gunsmiths I’ve been acquainted too, nor anyone else. It’s a small world, an in-crowd, and we need each others services.

          You seem to think that corporate manufacturing is the only source for parts and materials. The people who print or mill their own weapons are also industrious, self-educating, and more than capable of making their own parts from scratch. Someone even got creative enough to make their own rifling with a bucket of water and old car battery; the same method allows for progressive rifling twist ratio.

          People who DIY don’t ask permission and if DIY is criminalized, it will move underground like every other persecuted market before it. Yes, there are endless ways for the government to screw people but what you suggest is open the door to yet another game of cat and mouse. Making spools of plastic, print heads, and other parts “controlled” will not stop market forces, rather they will be imported from Mexico and China and further fuel criminal enterprise; although this is a stretch because you can build your own filament maker on the cheap now if you don’t want to buy one.

  18. These guys were not happy to go after only ghost guns. As the rule reads that AR uppers will also be classified as receivers. This closes the ability to purchase one and have it mailed to you. This is the beginning of the end for American gun owners. The ATF is redefining guns by executive fiat. This is supposed to be unlawful but will not be after SCOTUS is packed.

  19. I’d buy a few if not for the record keeping of sellers.

    Only because of the “Ban It!” thing. I’ve little interest in spending more time and money machining the gun part at home than I’d spend on factory made. Normally, if it’s a banned book or movie, something like that, I spend the money to read it see it on fundamental principle.

    What comes next of course is a massive panic buying spree that will drive the price of 80% lowers well beyond my meager budget.

  20. What the hell is a “potential crime scene”?
    Well, all it takes is a crime to happen there potentially, someday, maybe.
    F the retards and the retards that voted for them.

    BTW, we almost had that bag of douchewater on the SCOTUS. He’s probably more dangerous to America now.

  21. what hasn’t been said in plain English, is that the new rule requires that AR uppers be serialized as they are now fitting the new definition of a firearm. No more ordering an upper on line and having it sent to your house.

  22. I am advancing my gun clock from five minutes to midnight to three minutes to midnight. What will you do when freedom and the Bill of Rights fall when we hit midnight. Make your decision soon if you haven’t already; the left is gunning for the Bill of Rights having already destroyed parts of it.

  23. Ya know, I read A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed. over nd over again, and I just couldn’t find a single fucking thing about 80% lowers, or serial numbers, or about the ATF or justice dpt. making gun laws.
    But it does say, “Shall NOT be infringed.”
    Now who’s breaking the law?

    • Yes CC, they’re all (every “gun law”) colorable and a violation of constitutional mandate. But due to the timidity of the American people for decades now, and our go-along to get-along attitude attitude regarding those we have elected to represent us, we’ve created a monster that thinks it’s above us. And they are above up only because we allow them to be. The Second Amendment was created for just this type of situation – to expel a tyrannical government. But until We The People “grow some” and put an end to their usurpation(s), we’ll just have to live with it.

    • You might want to check the militia clause:

      “Clause 16. The Congress shall have Power * * * To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia”

      I agree, Congress does need to do a better job of disciplining the militia, especially the unorganized militia.

      • You skipped over the “arming” part, which would require providing M4s to every member of the militia – including the unorganized militia.
        I’m all for that interpretation.

        • While M4s for everybody does sound attractive, there is a distinction between organized and organized militia in Fed Code.

          Congress does indeed arm the organized militia, the National Guard.

          But the Constitution gives Congress the authority to discipline both under the militia clause of the United States Constitution.

  24. First off, how will these new regs apply to “Ghost Guns” that have already been built? Any new reg. that affects them or their owners is obviously “ex-post-facto law”, something that is forbidden for government to enact (re: Article I, Section 8). Second, who is making these regs.? If it’s a bureaucracy such as the BATFE, or the DOJ, said regs are then colorable (fiat) and are thereby unconstitutional (re: Article 1, Section 1) – only congress can lawfully propose laws. Third, since “ghost Guns” are not serialized, the date of their manufacture into a firearm cannot be lawfully determined – this takes us back to my first point.

  25. “from 2016 to 2020, more than 23,000 un-serialized firearms ”

    Note the verbage here: Four/Five years and they STILL had to inflate the numbers with obliterated serial numbers.

  26. Thank you to the never trump gun owners. The f*cked up Libertarians and f*cked up RINO’s. Both groups are just full of sh!t.

    • You may be blaming the wrong people. The distinct possibility exists that what we have been told was a ‘free and fair’ election was not any such thing; If that is true, then the f*cked up Libertarians and RINOs could be completely innocent, as they may very well have voted responsibly instead of against their own interest, and the actual responsibility LIES elsewhere.

  27. sounds a lot like they’re factoring in guns seized that have had the serial # removed…anything to push the narrative….

  28. I hereby declare my property AND my person to be a sanctuary for all undocumented firearms and unfinished undocumented potential firearms and the parts and accessories necessary to make those unfinished undocumented potential firearms into a completed undocumented firearms… I will gladly give sanctuary to any and all undocumented firearms and any unfinished undocumented potential firearms and the parts and accessories necessary to make those unfinished undocumented potential firearms into a completed undocumented firearm for a nominal fee and know that your undocumented firearms and any unfinished undocumented potential firearms and the parts and accessories necessary to make those unfinished undocumented potential firearms into a completed undocumented firearm will receive to utmost respect, care and maintenance required to keep them in proper working order…

  29. Once the proposed rule is published in the Federal Register, the public will have 90 days to submit comments and the government to ignore.

  30. What is the point in commenting about any of this?

    Websites like this already have tens of thousands (perhaps millions) of comments.

    How does a comment change anything? People leave comments all over the place. That doesn’t make them a law maker with any authority at all. This is my comment and it will not change any law, regulation, or rule. It would not be any different if left on an ATF website or sent in an email to a governor or even the president.

    Such ideas are nothing short of complete ridiculousness. Particularly when we are dealing with people hell bent on repealing the 2nd Amendment.

  31. Biden and his cronies have an agenda. They know any of these new laws will have no effect on crime. It’s about control. Why would the government get involved in your healthcare? it’s not because they care about you, it’s about controlling you and your money.

    The ATF will do what they want, do you really think your rational comments will have any affect on their plans. Wake up! In the ARMY we had a phrase for this type of procedure, “BOHICA”, If you don’t know what that means, look it up, it will make total sense.

  32. How to comply with an AR15? Upper and lower are now firearms? OK. Can I put one firearm (upper) on another firearm (lower) having two different serial numbers? Do I have to record the caliber (cartridge) on the upper and lower? What if I decide to rebarrel the upper? What about my Glock xx? Slide and lower get serial numbers? Same questions then apply should I decide to change caliber?

  33. How do we get guys to not just comment on TTAG but also write a comment on the ATF? That’s the real goal here.

    • not just comment on TTAG but also write a comment on the ATF?

      TTAG most likely will NOT trace my IP and send some “Ghost Hunters” to my house in search of those evasive little critters… Risk/reward… Too much risk for something that is going to happen anyway… You know, “for the common good”…

  34. Can someone tell me how a serial number somehow makes guns safer ? It doesnt. Bidens communists want serial numbers to trace registered firearms. Its the only reason. So when the time comes the KGB can demand you surrender gun serial number 1-fukatf.

    Mass resistance will muck up the works. And featureless forgings will become the norm, Defense Distributed will sell more units and competitors will sell copycat machines.

    Eventually milling machines designed specifically for machining receivers will be regulated as will barrels. Every gun part will be controlled like medicines.

    The communists are not going to stop until every gun in civilian hands is confiscated. Which means smart Americans will comply by expending their ammunition in direction of the communists first.

  35. “Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

    -William Pitt the Younger

    Just keep this in mind when they get bold enough to kick down your door in the middle of the night, shoot your dog, terrorize your kids and have a bull duke feel up your wife while the hold you at gun point.

    Fuck em. Fuck em all.

  36. 80% kits are for luddite Fudds.

    The real cool kats are 3d printing their receivers in mom’s basement.

  37. Only two companies that I know of forge their own lower receivers or machine them from a billet. Colt and one other I can’t recall. Every other AR type firearm company buys 80% forgings from a dozen or so forging companies. Those companies do the rough machining, the magwell and some the drilling and the threading of the buffer tube mounting hole. This change would put them out of business. They would have to get a FF07 to forge 80% receivers and serialize them.
    Only Congress can change the 1934 National Firearms Act which defines the items that the ATF wants to redefine. They already were told NO to calling a bump stock a machine gun by a Federal Appeals Court.
    The same thing will happen again if they go forward with this, lawsuit after lawsuit.

  38. Well… yeah, an AR15 is not a Military issue assault rifle, but they are darn scary looking! But don’t hold your breath on only the AR’s being the target…. Mini 14’s and 30’s will fall in the same category, along with a pile of others. Democratic Socialists are playing this game for the long haul and they will never quit. And with our borders being run over by eventual Democratic voters and millions of brainwashed 22 year-olds graduating from our Socialist Universities….. there is only one inevitable outcome in the future. Just depends upon how aggressive the Democratic Socialists will be…. Aggressive and it will be CW2 in the near future. If they continue the slow play, then our kids and grandkids will be in the mix.

  39. DOJ rulings are not real laws. Make Congress change the GCA or propose a new law to implement these changes. Elected legislators can be held accountable (to some extent). Faceless bureaucrats cannot.

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