This is not an exaggeration. Our federal regulators have a site that is designed to handle NFA transactions electronically, and it’s failing miserably and nobody seems to know why it’s barely operational. As of this writing, logging in is simply not possible, and filing ATF Form 3 or Form 4 or checking existing drafts just isn’t happening. This is incredibly frustrating to me and others in the industry and the how and why it’s ruining my business, but let’s preface this article with the fact that we’ve discussed problems with the ATF’s eForms back in August . . .
I’m well aware that being in the NFA business isn’t for the faint of heart. Your retailer should know how to do a Form 4 – and if they don’t, you’re looking at delays in getting your stamp back if they can’t get it right the first time, or give you an idea of what needs to be sent to ATF so they can approve it on the first pass. Thankfully, the internet is becoming our friend in telling people how to get their NFA gear, right? In one merchant of death’s opinion, not so much. Specifically, here’s why ATF’s electronic submission system is driving me insane.
Recently, browsing reddit’s gun forum, a question was asked about NFA purchasing. Someone rather unambiguously answered that that the dealer you use should process your forms electronically, because it will save you months of waiting time. I think this is misguided for a few reasons.
1. Yes, electronic forms are theoretically faster. Here’s why. When you’re at a grocery store with 10 cash registers, eight of which are open and there’s a long line at each, and the store opens up another lane, everyone flocks to that new lane. Pretty soon, that one is just as long as the other eight. You haven’t gained anything if you’re on the back-end of the line but if you’re close enough to take advantage of the new opening, you can theoretically shorten your wait time. The people who benefited from the new eForm system are those who volunteered to be guinea pigs and hit me up for NFA merchandise just after the system came online.
In August when the first batch of electronic forms went in and in October when the first batch of electronic forms came back, nobody believed me when I said that I had gotten Form 4’s back in 60 days. So what did they do after I showed them the proof? They threw money at me and asked me to do everything electronically from then on.
ATF’s system went from taking and approving zero forms, to approving some forms. And now that the internet thinks that you can save months of wait time, they’re telling dealers to do e-forms or not get the sale. This raises a theory of mine: with the sheer volume of people demanding electronic forms (I have no hard data to corroborate this, just industry experience and my gut) I think that the electronic submissions are outpacing the paper submissions since the folks that do electronic submissions tend to do a lot more NFA business than smaller outfits that do it on paper. My guess is that we’ll reach a tipping point and at the rate we’re going, in 3-4 months or so, a paper form will come back before an electronic form due to the sheer quantity of electronic submissions.
Again, this is just a theory… only time will tell to see if this plays out.
2. Another theory of mine is that the ATF’s system is being slogged down by volume. The system that I played with in August didn’t work very well. It didn’t do any better from September to December – it was intolerably slow, but you could occasionally get work done.
Some dealers tell me they have no trouble, where others have encountered plenty of problems as I have. Gut instinct tells me that when ATF’s site takes an eternity building my NFA inventory from their database it’s because I have 300 items in inventory and smaller dealers have three. That’s why I’m having problems and they’re not. I haven’t been able to test this objectively, but colleagues of mine that work for larger firms are NOT using the electronic system as it is too unreliable for their business to depend on. And the ATF has issued a press release indicating they are, in fact, having performance issues.
3. ATF’s electronic system is ruining my business because people simply don’t understand the back-end process and are results-oriented. They hear on the internet that you must go to a dealer that files e-forms and you must not accept a substitute, lest you have to wait longer for your NFA merchandise. I file this under “Things Amazon has done to ruin society.” People simply don’t know how to wait for anything anymore. Patience is a virtue, and it’s simply lost on too many people.
I lost four sales last week because when I was asked to do electronic forms, I offered the following option:
- I can try to do the forms electronically. ATF’s website isn’t working very well. If I can’t get it to work, we’ll go with paper.
- If you want me to try it electronically, I’m going to charge you more money. My price is discounted for me to spend a minimal amount of time on this.
What happened? They looked at me as if I was crazy and took their business elsewhere.
Apparently I’m the only one who realizes that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. I spent the last three days of January trying to get a pair of Form 3’s submitted and a single Form 4. I kept submitting it repeatedly and ATF’s website simply did not handle the submission properly. The most valuable commodity I have isn’t plant, property, equipment or capital… it’s time.
When I can do a paper form in four minutes flat, proofread, with serial numbers double checked and mailed to ATF the same day I’m paid, I have no problem working cheap and slinging an SBR at $50 over cost. What are you supposed to charge when your time commitment to getting the transfer sent in will vary from 15 minutes (approximately the amount of time it takes to do a single e-form 4 with a 4MB upload of trust documents and tax payment to the US treasury) to 3.5 hours during which the ATF’s website crashes mid-submission every time or the connection to their server gets lost? And even after you’ve spent 3.5 hours trying to submit the form, you potentially still haven’t finished the job.
People don’t seem to realize that with a paper form, the ATF’s contracted bank cashes the check and handles the paperwork that’s sent to the NFA branch where it is examined and subsequently reviewed for and processed into the NFRTR. This is in stark contrast to an electronic form, where the burden of data entry, payment to the government, document submission, etc. are all shifted to the dealer. More work with the same markup = less profit.
When I say I can do paper forms for a low markup or electronic forms for a high markup to cover the amount of time I have to sink into it, they look at me as if I’m insane. One other dealer went so far as to say that I was gouging customers, because when I said the price of the item was X, I should include as much time as necessary to get the job done and not filing the customer’s forms electronically was a breach of their trust. My response to that is that in life, as in sports, the boos always come from the cheap seats. Protip: Never trust a gun dealer that has a massive amount of free time on their hands.
Until ATF can get their act together, I will continue to lose sales, I will continue to lose profits and I will continue to lose sanity/productivity dealing with customers who feel my time is best spent fighting with ATF’s website so they can theoretically get their gear sooner.
Circumstances like these are what make running a business difficult. I can tolerate the government’s regulatory process. But the fact that a system that was engineered to be more productive is turning into being counterproductive is what really grinds my gears. And customers are taking their business elsewhere because I can’t meet their seemingly simple demands.
UPDATE: A few hours after this post was published, the ATF sent this email blast regarding eForm performance problems.
Well, let’s just say for a moment that the sentiment is correct. Let’s say that the millions of gun-owners in this country really are just a day away from unleashing all their firepower on other people. If so, to paraphrase Morgan Freeman “….and your plan is to piss off these people?”
Hmmm… Guess you’ll be wanting my chainsaw too?
Why not simply stop processing electronically?
Sounds like free enterprise in action. Its a beautiful thing. The customer wants eForms, that creates an opportunity for vendors who will give them what they want. I have both paper and electronic forms waiting for approvals. I am fairly certain my electronic ones will be coming home next, while my paper ones I am not expecting for a good while. For my next purchase, I will likely request an eForm again. It sucks that the government can’t run a website properly, but if a few hours of frustration saves months of waiting, I will appreciate the vendor that will put up with that for me.
True… but either the statement is meaningless or the only solution is the disarmament of everyone, everywhere. Police and military included in that. So… good luck?
The gov could solve their problem easily by removing SBRs, SBSs, and silencers from the NFA. The conditions that led to the NFA, while stupid, don’t even exist anymore. I wish someone would have fixed this prior to the Dem senate and president.
Umm, I’m pretty sure the govt doesn’t see it as a problem.
For them it’s a feature, not a bug.
The real question is — Why does dude have his VFG so far back?
Gees, at that point you might as well just go with a magwell grip…
Specifically on the “Amazon ruining patience” perspective, I’ve seen that a lot. But, like so many things these days, apparently I’m bass-ackwards. I tend to not order from Amazon/other online retailers (unless it’s something really obscure/hard to find) because going to a physical store is faster.
Why would I wait for even one day shipping when I can walk in a store, actually TOUCH something, and walk out with what I want right then?
10%, 20%, or more in savings.
Not a small concern, for some folks.
Yeah, I s’pose there’s that.
Still, actually being able to lay hands on an item before I buy it is worth the trade in most cases, for me. And for some reason I never made the logical leap to “check it out in a store, then go home and order it cheaper.”
As an Amazon Prime member, I can tell you that I default to Amazon. Not having to deal with finding what I’m looking for in a store, standing in line or dealing with salespeople (good or bad) is plenty of incentive. Not to mention having the item at my door in two days. And avoiding sales tax.
Boo-hoo. Cry me a river. This article coming from a guy who only a few months ago bragged how he takes advantage of people worried they are going to lose their gun rights? I am sorry, I have zero sympathy for this author. What goes around, comes around.
Don’t forget this little gem:
“Listen, I’m not saying I want to see Sandy Hook II but another 20 or 30 dead kids would really dress out my balance sheet.”
https://twitter.com/FirearmConcierg/status/410868580905783296
Why does TTAG even associate with this guy??
Because he offers a point of view into the industry that we’re not getting anywhere else.
He is still an asshole.
A correct asshole, but an asshole.
I’m sure if TTAG actually tried to find a dealer with more intelligence, considerably better writing skills, some actual useful insight into the industry that goes beyond “why I’m awesome, why customers suck and who can I screw today” and rates below a 10 on the douche meter would be a pretty easy endeavor.
Is FC a plant of MAIG? He makes Gun owners out to be blood thirsty. I am repulsed by his words and offended by his insinuations. He should not be a TTAG contributor.
“Our federal regulators have a site that is designed to handle NFA transactions electronically, and it’s failing miserably and nobody seems to know why it’s barely operational. As of this writing, logging in is simply not possible, and filing ATF Form 3 or Form 4 or checking existing drafts just isn’t happening.”
It’s the BATFE’s version of Obamacare…
It’s hard to win against a cult. They have pledged to give their lives rather than defend themselves or their kids. We just need to let them & hope its not their kids that gets killed. Its hard to imagine that a persons only protection would be a sail phone & the hope that the cops would be there on time. Certainly there is no IQ requirement to be a US citizen, Randy
After working in Loss Prevention for 6yrs, I’ll tell you now, NOBODY is above the law, you steal from me, and I’ll prosecute you to the fullest extent that the law allows…
…and that’s just another reason I’m glad my submission went in on paper. 🙂
I would pay a little extra for expedited e-Form service, and that is especially true right now because I’m aware of the difficulties that the service is exhibiting and thus the extra time and effort required of FFLs that FC is complaining about. If I was buying a silencer and they told me that paper forms were free but eForm filing would cost an extra $20, I’d pay it without a thought.
That said, the average customer isn’t going to understand that, because until they walked in they were probably not aware of the eForm system difficulties, and so it would behoove you to explain those difficulties to them in a non-confrontational way. It won’t take any longer than saying it nastily. Someone upthread offered a good solution. Set your prices based on what you think the eForm is worth, and then offer them a discount for paper forms, because it’s both slower and requires less work. That’s much less objectionable than offering one price and then jacking it up based on your irritation level.
Things Amazon is doing to ruin society? You have to be kidding me. Amazon has simply taken the role of market leader. The things they do which used to be deal winners, unexpected, are now deal makers or requirements. Amazon has made society better because they have created economic efficiencies leading to an overall higher quality of life. The market has spoken and loves these efficiencies; meanwhile the author seems to be simply grouchy about the free market. Patience is only a virtue when dealing in non-financial transactions as money has a time value.
Instead of complaining about his customers or his competition, the author should be looking at his business. If he cannot offer faster processing times or electronic filing, what other items can he offer to entice customers? Perhaps offering to not have customers pay 100% up front for NFA items until the stamp is approved? My favorite local SOT only requires 50% up front then 50% when the stamp is approved. The same SOT doesn’t charge for transfers from 3rd parties if you also buy something NFA from him at the same time. These features have earned this SOT 100% of my local NFA business. He’s competing for the market’s money, like any business should.
Seems to me that most people who EDC Use them every single day,Myself included… Not EDC In case of last ditch scenarios… Ill stick with my benchmade barrage
GO figure… here’s a message I received from ATF just this morning regarding eForms:
Good morning registered eForms users:
For the past two weeks you have been experiencing various performance related issues while attempting to use eForm. These issues have included slow response times, inability to finalize and submit forms, pay.gov screen not displaying, inability to select product types for some submissions, inability to view PDF’s, the system abruptly returning the user back to the home screen, and some of you have not been able to log in at all. While any of you have been able to successfully submit your eForms, others have not been able to get them out of your “Draft” folders.
First, we want to offer our sincere apology for what you are currently experiencing while using eForms. The quality of eForms’ current performance is not indicative of the quality of performance that ATF strives to provide its customers. We share your current frustrations and we want you to know that we are doing everything that we can to address these issues. We continue to meet every day with “experts” in the field, and we are confident that we will soon find a solution.
We believe that eForms is a worthwhile investment for us, as well as for you, the firearms industry. And we think that you feel the same. The statistics below are reflective of this week’s work (our eForms week is calculated from one Wednesday to the next for reporting purposes):
New eforms user registrations: 405
Form 1 submissions: 208
Form 3 submissions: 930
Form 4 submissions: 898
So, in spite of the performance issues, eForms is doing what it was designed to do. It may be slower and it may be temperamental at times, but we believe it to still be a worthwhile investment.
We are committed to provide, you, our customers, the best service that we can and to this end we will continue our efforts to resolve the issues with our eForms system. While we are trying to resolve these issues it may be necessary for us to perform system restarts throughout the day where we may bring eforms down for an hour or so. We request your patience with us and your understanding that this process is unavoidable until we can correctly identify and resolve the issues.
We will provide you with periodic updates on our efforts to ensure you of our commitment and to keep you informed. We thank you for your patience and your continued use of eForms until these issues are resolved.
Please feel free to contact me at anytime if you have any questions or comments at [email protected] or you can use the “Ask the Experts” function within eForms.
Sincerely,
Lenora (Lee) Alston-Williams
Industry Liasion Analyst – IT
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, & Explosives
Office of Enforcement Programs and Services
Firearms and Explosives Services Division
99 New York Avenue, N.E. (6.E-333)
Washington, DC 20226
Yep. Article timed perfectly
That’s for the follow up ‘Blaze’. I wanted to see where this went.
Is that rust on the 9mm mark on the lower right one????
Why is it you never see negative comments on the gun you just bought until the day after?
Spydero Harpy or Matriarch 2 has always worked for me. Sometimes the Spyderco civilian. Yeah, I love Spyderco.
Wouldn’t this be a state by state decision (by and large) since the attitudes and situations are highly variable?
My opinion is a very firm yes. And no.
I think the organized groups like the NRA, NYSRPA, et. al. should stop holding rallies and focus on litigation and lobbying. For one, that’s where they are most effective and most (not all) of their members aren’t able to navigate the legal morass. It also robs the anti-constitutionalists (still need to work on that, doesn’t roll off the keyboard like “gun grabber”) of the opportunity to demonize the rally because of the group(s) backing it.
While the organizations should stop rallying, the MEMBERS should not. The flip side of the same reason that I mentioned above: there isn’t a “gun group” associated with the rally. The rallies then become nothing but a true grass roots assembly of freedom loving citizens. They become harder to marginalize with the standard “Because. NRA.”
If I may paraphrase Sir Winston. “We shall fight the in courts, we shall fight them in public rallies and speeches, we shall fight them at the ballot box, and in the halls of education and in the ambushes and avenues of the public and private media. We shall NEVER surrender!”
The most important area is our lawmakers let them know no more gun controls at all and that we are watching the votes and will keep in mind come election time , and keep fighting all fronts , letters to news papers do get printed , so do it , and make lots noise on the internet also….and take a friend shooting !
We should not stop until the MDA coffie clubs stop “rallying”. They get outnumbered by the press 3 to 1 and are mentioned on the national news. They cant ignore 500 people on the capital steps with guns.
With that said, i would like to see the rallies focus their message and drop references to God, abortion, IRS, Bhenghazhai (however you spell that city) and everything else that we may be agreeved by but are not on point regarding the gun issue itself. We should be laser focused on our message and we should be inclusive.
Regarding the inclusivity, we should reach out to people who are not conservative. Individuals in our movement may not like their lifestyle but Gays are gun rights activists’ natural allies. They are members of a group that is constantly attacked and beaten. They need to have the means to fight back. At the moment, they have their own small groups and are at the fringes because elements in their culture point to the conservatives and say that they are the same people who attack them in the streets; be that true or not. If we rallied with them, the left could no longer point at us and claim “redneck”, “homophobe”, “nut”… We could be seen as “mainstream” at some point.
Can you see yourself standing sholder to shoulder with the GLBT crowd to preserve your (and their) rights? If not, do you truely believe in your cause or are you, as I have been accused, just a person who “likes guns”?
That is why since 1994 I was done “compromising” and engaging in so-called “reasonable” legislation or laws. It is “shall not infringe” and any group that doesn’t understand that doesn’t not deserve my money or support. Ergo…the NRA, or any other group that is willing to compromise with the anti gun folks, Dems or RINOs.
Hey guys — we’re unique! All two million of us!
And counting.
FC- I understand charging a premium for eFiling because it takes more of your valuable time that could be used making other sales. However, you could consider hiring someone to help you with the eFiling if you really are losing a lot of business.
Rallies are valuable for putting a real face on the movement to counter the caricatures put forth by the gungrabbers. That same friendly face also reassures with flesh and blood warmth fellow 2A supporters who, it’s easy to feel, might otherwise consider themselves akin to Gary Cooper in “High Noon”: outnumbered in a big way.
The better question isn’t whether we should continue to rally, but rather whether we should just rally. I’d actually like to see annual Gun Pride Parades in cities across the nation. Remember, man is a political animal, who thrives in community. Social networking is great for organizing, but ultimately it is to community what Internet pornography is to sex: not without value, but still a distant second substitute for the real thing.
well-deserved, and keep going, no upper limit 🙂
Good work TTAG, if we get through this relatively unscathed we can be gratefull to the hardworking staff, Randy
Thanks!
Awesome.
The only thing I have to say is thank you for not calling it a Glock brand Glock. Excellent penmanship good sir.
On our last trip to SF we walked from our hotel to our friends house. We had to walk through the Folsom Street Fair with all of its leather, whips, chains, piercings, S&M, nakedness, public drugs and sex. When we got to our friends’ house, the conversation among all of the forty-something parents with kids was excitement that the city fathers had just decided to ban McDonalds from selling Happy Meals. That to me is SF and liberalism in a nutshell – freedom means open air gay S&M, but we have to save the precious children from the evils of the happy meal.
Place is effed up.
Mmmm, Caymus.
Moscow and Peking (Beijing if you are of the chicom bent) also matter but I don’t give a damn about fixing them either. Will all work out when hard times arrive and they starting eating each other. California 2.0 perhaps will last longer.
Garands are just damn sexy rifles. Congratulations!!!!!
Having a Kawolsky “Get off my lawn” moment….
Oakland is to SF as Newark is to NY. In other words, most visitors would never leave SF to visit Oakland.
(I work in Emeryville, which is sandwiched between Berkeley and Oakland).
(EDITED: I can’t tell if you wrote the article and the data are from the linked source or not. 😉 )
That’s an informative article, Dan, and I was enjoying reading it until I read, “expansion of concealed carry rights.” Ugh.
If we had to have a license to exercise our right of free speech or practice of the religion of our choice, I would hope that people wouldn’t accept that as the exercise of a right. (I’m referencing the simple exercising of a right and not the commission of a crime while exercising it.)
Improper use of right in place of privilege is deleterious to the maintenance and restoration of that right. People new to the concept of unalienable rights may not fully appreciate those rights if we elevate mere privilege to the status of right in our manners of speech. Those already informed might get in the habit of settling for a privilege in place of a right. And, future generation may look back at writings in an attempt to define the RKBA “back then”; perhaps even for court briefs and arguments (isn’t this done in the present day?).
What about internal bleeding. The G2 is able to cut or perfore many veins and arteries. It´s not necessary to hit a vital organ to kill somebody if you cause enough internal bleeding. And the G2 is capable of doing so. I think this is a very important point to take in account.