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You have the right to use deadly force when faced with an imminent, credible threat of death or grievous bodily harm. This applies even in anti-gun, anti-self-defense jurisdictions with Soros-funded prosecutors (i.e. Houston, Los Angles, Chicago, Dallas, New York, St. Louis, Austin, Philadelphia, Albuqurque, San Antonio….).

Sadly, armed self-defenders often make dumb mistakes in the heat of the moment that get them in trouble. Obviously a prudent person will know and understand the laws in their own state. No matter where you live, though, here are some of the most common ways good guys can and do run afoul of the law — or even end up dead — in use of force incidents.

1.  Don’t chase/pursue/shoot at fleeing bad guys

Once the immediate threat to you and other innocents ceases and the bad guy(s) retreats, stop. Your justification for using deadly force has just ended. Don’t make the mistake of the guy in Florida who continued to shoot at fleeing bad guys, killing one. He’ll spend decades in prison for his trouble.

Furthermore, chasing bad guys may lead to a new confrontation in another location. That new location will have a whole new set of witnesses and the pursuing “victim” from the first scene will look a lot like the aggressor at the new location. That will increase the risk of one of those new witnesses having their own gun and possibly employing force to defend who they see as a retreating victim.

The lesson here is simple: Let fleeing bad guys go. Period.

2.  Be aware of imminence

Bad guy incapacitated? Stop shooting! Don’t be the pharmacist in Oklahoma who shot an armed robber who was squirming on the floor from already being hit (video below).

Unfortunately, Mr. Pharmacist took the time to reload his revolver and then shoot him one last time. With that final shot, our good guy turned into a murderer in the eyes of the law.

The same goes for the homeowner in Minnesota. He shot two wounded burglars “with a good, clean finishing shot” to put them out of their misery after the initial volley of shots left them writhing on the ground.

3.  Beware the ‘My home is my castle’ fallacy

Just because someone is on your property doesn’t give you the right to brandish your gun or make threats with it. In fact, confronting trespassers can escalate a situation quickly.  Remember the best way to win a gun battle . . .

Don’t get into one.

In your home, you have a more latitude to use deadly force against an uninvited “guest.”  However, just because you have an intruder doesn’t automatically mean you can punch their ticket.

Ability, opportunity, and jeopardy must all be present in the mind of a reasonable person. You must be able to articulate that you or a family member faced an imminent risk of death of great bodily injury.

And just because you can use deadly force doesn’t mean it’s the best course of action. There are a lot of negative consequences and fallout from pulling the trigger. Don’t believe it? Just ask George Zimmerman.  Or Kyle Rittenhouse.

Can you detain a burglar? Sure, but telling them to leave would be the smarter move. If they’ve got your TV, tell them to take the remote too and be on their way. There’s far too much downside to using deadly force on someone who isn’t threatening you and doesn’t truly need shooting.

4.  Avoid defending property

In fact, a good rule of thumb is this: don’t do it. Yes, Illinois, Texas, and some other states allow for the use of deadly force to prevent a burglary or forcible felony.

Illinois law, for instance, allows the use of deadly force against someone breaking into your car or shed. While your local prosecutor may decline to prosecute if you shoot, the feds can charge you for violating the person’s civil rights.

In this day and age, it’s more likely than ever that you will be prosecuted when using deadly force against an unarmed bad guy. And juries aren’t filled with a dozen regular TTAG readers. There will be people there who have grave reservations about using deadly force, even in a “clear” case of self-defense. Others simply might not like guns. Then there are potential racial angles.

Imagine testifying that you shot some kid who was trying to steal your old, well-used Craftsman lawn mower or your 40-year-old Weed Eater. Good luck with that.

Better to call the police, wait inside your home and let the cops take care of it. That’s why you have insurance.

That goes double (maybe squared) for your neighbor’s house. Did you notice prowlers around your neighbor’s home while they’re on vacation? Instead of grabbing your 12-gauge, grab the phone and call the police.

An attorney friend of mine related an additional tidbit that’s worth considering: “No state’s attorney is going to risk re-election for you.” That goes double if you shoot one of his constituents. A DA may move forward with a prosecution just to save face with the voters.

Bad guys exist. Many with true evil in their hearts. Denying the existence of evil has no survival value. Evil people won’t hesitate to hurt you for their own enjoyment or to take something of yours they want.

5. Keep the proper mindset

Avoid trouble. Stay out of stupid situations with stupid people at stupid times. Use your situational awareness, avoidance and de-escalation skills. At the same time if evil is forced upon you, never give up in a fight.

6.  Have an attorney present before you answer questions from the police.

Even if you feel your actions were completely within the law and should be clear to any reasonable observier, DO NOT talk with the police until you’ve had a chance to speak with an attorney.  Know what (few things) to say to responding cops.

As an attorney once said, you have the right to remain silent, but very few people have the ability. You carry a gun so you’re harder to kill. Know how to interact with responding police after a defensive gun use so that you’re harder to convict.

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  1. here’s a 7th way: posting “I’m gonna shoot any bad guy I run across!” or other such to social media.

    if you’ve ever posted anything like that, you’d better do all in your power to avoid shooting or you’re gonna lose everything.

    • “ Better to call the police, wait inside your home and let the cops take care of it. That’s why you have insurance.”


      I don’t insure my gun collection or my parents life’s savings. If someone is trying to take either, they are going to die. End of story.

      I’m sorry readers, the saying “No ‘stuff’ is worth killing someone over” isn’t exactly true. If they are stealing my old lawn mower from outside, okay, fine. If they are stealing things worth literally decades of someone’s savings, nope, they are going to die. Jury or not. Actually. I would gladly kill someone, illegally, so that my life’s savings could go to my kids. No problem with that. At all. A lot of people would, And criminals should know it too.

      • i agree with the sediment of your outback.
        but a sliver suit that removes all of your slavings doesn’t leave much for the funyuns.

        • Good luck finding the savings. Good luck with that civil suit. You seem to think I would play along with such a matter. You are mistaken. They would have to put me in prison for not paying the civil suit. And that’s the idea.

      • Insurance has deductibles and no one ever insured themselves to prosperity. In fact if affordable insurance is offered, they you likely don’t need it. Insurance companies don’t cover likely to occur claims.

        • You’re nieve if you believe banks are safe. There’s nothing safe about a safety deposit box especially today with the dollar teetering on collapse.

    • I’d go a step further. If you’ve ever had a social media presence, you better hope you aren’t in the crosshairs of an activist prosecutor. What you may have said, or not have said, will be largely irrelevant. It is likely if you even hold the slightest conservative thought, you’ll have at least 5 dozen posts that could send you to prison when the lawyers are done twisting.

      • You comment is now in the public domain and recoverable if needs be and you have labelled youself as a POTENTIAL and WILLING MURDERER and if you think by calling youself ANONYMOUS make you ANONYMOUS you live in Cloud Cuckoo land. No mere possessions are worth a life and if they really do represent a lifes savings then they really should be insured FIRES and ACCIDENT cannot be bloody SHOT

        • I’m joking of course.

          But realistically, a knife is a better throw down. With a gun, you have to worry about DNA inside the gun. Is the cartridges in the throw down the same as in your defense gun? If so, forensics will find it. Are they the same as a batch of cartridges inside your home? If so, forensics will find it. Is there matching lint, and hair inside the gun to clothes’ and people living inside your home? If so, forensics will find it. Did you claim the perp fired at you? If so, there better be powder residue on the perp then. Then the obvious things, is the throw down registered to you, or anyone you know? Did the guy you buy it from, did he see your face? LOL.

          Whereas a knife you can buy in a sealed package, that no one is going to remember, or require paperwork for. Then you can put on your disposable nitrile gloves and pull some lint from the perp’s pocket and stuff it inside the folding blade area of your knife throw down that you have never touched which you kept inside a sealed plastic bag. Rub the perp’s hands all over the knife and get their fingerprints everywhere (and DNA) while not getting yours on there.

  2. In California, there is a presumption that an individual breaking into your home without your permission is intending great bodily injury or death to occupants of the residence. (If you shoot a resident of the house, all bets are off.) Add to that that the State must establish that you DID NOT act in self defense by proof beyond a reasonable doubt. So all in all, the law is on your side if you shoot an intruder in your home, even if that intruder is determined to have been unarmed. On the other hand, it may cost you a lot of money defending yourself before the local DA decides to dismiss any filed criminal action.

    • If you can avoid firing the shot, avoid it. Period. Once the shooting starts there is no way to know how things will play out. But it will not be good.

      Like you I live in CA. No way I’m letting the legal system decide my fate except in the direst of emergencies.

      • Fortunately, I live in a very red county and am a “senior citizen” with a severely disabled wife. Plus I am an attorney with a very clean record. Most of the burglars up here are methheads, junkies, or homeless, or some combination thereof. Anyone breaking in is getting shot if necessary, and there won’t be too many questions about my doing so.

        • Until someone provides a screen capture of your post here to the nearby (and not nearly as red) city TV station and posts it to twitter where it goes viral showing that the old white guy had planned all along to shoot the first poor disadvantaged person-of-color child he got a chance to kill.

      • I don’t know about you, but I’m definitely staying away from Los Angles. Trigonometry was too far in my past to deal with at this point in my life. Geometry maybe, but I’ll pass on the sines, cosines, etc.

  3. “If they’ve got your TV, tell them to take the remote too and be on their way.”

    Um, no. The most important thing is for everyone involved (including the criminal) to live through the encounter, but I’ll be darned if I’ll permit an intruder to enter my home and take what he wants without consequences. If I have to ruin the TV by smashing it with a baseball bat out of his hands, fine. If I can’t have it, neither can he, and I’ll be yelling and swinging all the while to put the fear of God into him and make him reconsider entering the Haz house ever again.

    But there’s no way I’ll just sit there and watch him/them take stuff. Too much of that nonsense going on here in CA already.

    • Exactly.

      Give him the remote too? Ridiculous statement. I’ll give him a baseball bat to the back of the head. If my lawyer in any case says I f’d up, I’ll just say to him I’m joking, and then make it as if it “never happened.”

      Tired of all this crap.

    • The most important thing is for everyone involved (including the criminal) to live through the encounter
      I know that avoiding excess trouble is the theme here, but this is absolutely not true. The most important thing is that your right to live peaceably with your legally acquired things is respected. One of the most important things is not that the criminal survive the encounter. Again, I get the “don’t do things that will make it harder for you” but that attitude is why our society is a bad off as it is and criminals are encouraged across so much of our land.

  4. The Four Stupids: stay away from stupid people doing stupid things at stupid times in stupid places. This includes social media, late night sessions in hookah bars, selling your xbox in the parking lot of a convenience store, etc., etc., etc.

    And, as always, don’t talk to the cops …

  5. “Avoid defending property”

    true. for now. but people survive by means of their property. there is coming a time when property will be so stolen and looted and robbed that shooting looters, thieves, and shoplifters will be necessary for survival.

    just not yet.

  6. Like I told my neighbor after she had an incident; you can’t shoot the unarmed, naked, drunk guy that just kicked in your front door at 2 AM because he thought it was his house. Just get the cops (it’s a lot less hassle).

    On the other hand, if a gang of thugs busts down your front door and come charging in, fire at will until the threat ceases.

    • A naked, unarmed man may be naked and unarmed, but if he’s drunk or under the influence and has smashed his way into your home, he’s already shown himself to be a danger to your safety. As many LEOs know, a person under the influence can be tremendously difficult to persuade, dissuade, or even take down, and that must be taken into account.

      If a naked drunk guy kicks in my front door at zero dark thirty and is perceiving that it’s his house and I’m the intruder, I’m going to keep my gat at the low ready regardless. There is no way I’ll allow a naked drunk guy to advance any further toward Mrs Haz in our own home.

    • Oh really and how do you know he walked into the wrong house. You get drunk and do something that stupid you are responsible not the home owner.

    • In my state, it depends. Is he trying to break down your door? (Yes you can blast him, certainly if he has broken down the door). Has he already broken in and is wandering your home potentially looking for victims? (Yes you can blast him).

  7. Lol @ tell them to not forget the remote. So pathetic. My life is worth more than a home intruders life, and my property is also worth more than an intruders life.

    Dont like it? Too bad, dont come in my house and you’ll get to stay alive.

    • My state’s a lot more permissive, if they’re inside of the property line, don’t respond appropriately to a verbal command to withdraw, and facing you. All good. Castle Doctrine extends to the curb, and your vehicle. A SYG state to boot.

      Wasn’t long ago one of our Sheriff’s warned looters about expecting to get shot in the commission of, so you can deduce the inference in law about property theft. I’ll be keeping my clapped out mower, thank you.

      • “if they’re inside of the property line”

        Some people are legally allowed to trespass while performing their job. Sometimes non-threats don’t respond appropriately. (Recall the story on here about the appliance guy.) Additionally, I see no need to shoot someone just because they’re on your property unless they’re a deadly threat. If they refuse to leave, then let the police deal with it. Remember when that dude killed the dad there to pick up his son? What if he had just called the police?

        If they illegally entered or tried to enter your home, then that’s a different story. They’re assumed to be a threat when they do that. Check your local laws.

        • @Dude

          “Some people are legally allowed to trespass while performing their job.”

          ahhh the trespass thing… always a question. It needs to be qualified and the law needs to be considered. It varies some state to state but basically and generally:

          For example, the gas company can access ‘through’ private property to maintain a gas line on an easement IF access ‘through’ to the private property is the only way to get to the gas line on an easement. For example, if there is an access road to the gas line easement they can’t trample through your yard without your permission. But that does not mean they can loiter or be anywhere they want on the private property, their need route must be as direct as possible and their work must remain on the easement.

          Another example; Numerous courts across the country have ruled that if law enforcement enters private property – that absent exigent circumstances involving life threatening situations or warrant or in ‘hot pursuit’ or being invited there that law enforcement is technically performing an illegal search upon entry to that private property. But there is also a caveat to this, for example, the ‘knock-n-talk’ tactic used by law enforcement (for example, ATF) is at the very best ‘legally dubious’ but is generally permitted. The SCOTUS ruled in Florida v. Jardines, 569 U.S. 1 (2013) that there is an “implicit license” that “typically permits [a] visitor to approach [a] home by the front path, knock promptly, wait briefly to be received, and then (absent invitation to linger longer) leave.” This implied invitation applies to law enforcement officers just as it does to other citizens. “Thus, a police officer not armed with a warrant may approach a home and knock, precisely because that is no more than any private citizen might do.” (if you do not answer the door they are not permitted to linger or remain or start checking windows or other doors)

          I point this out because, in general, someone may enter your property with a specific purpose and it not actually be trespassing.

          the point is, there can be lots of weird things legally with trespassing and its best to call the police and let them handle it. However, if the trespasser does pose an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death then self defense is a real thing – but just being on the property does not mean its a defense situation that justifies use of force.

        • Just to clarify my post above in respect to law enforcement be it civilian or federal (you too ATF)…

          Although the SCOTUS decision i mentioned above generally allows law enforcement a right to enter private property in the context of ‘knock n talk’…law enforcement, absent a warrant or hot pursuit or invitation or exigent circumstances (Which by the way also includes an exigent articulatable probable cause that a crime is being comitted) i also mentioned, has no actual law enforcement authority to be there and is basically limited to civilian status under the SCOTUS decision I outlined. So law enforcement u der this condition can be ordered off the property by the property owner just like any civilian can be ordered off the property and even prohibited from carrying their fire arms or even any recording devices (e.g. cell phones, cameras, etc… just like civilians can be limited on private property), under the ‘knock-n-talk’ type of the scrinario which is basically what the ATF has been using for their justification to show up without warrant.

          Still, its best to call police and let them handle the ATF.

        • accessed slightly over 14k yards, basements and attics per month for 9yrs. over one million meters, although largely the same ones over and again. people are funny when it comes to their poppity. plenty threats, some altercations.
          the canines virtually all objected, a ~tiny~ percentage of them were not persuadable; y’all think yer plott hounds are badass, most of the housewives thought so too. but they’re 100% predictable.
          y’all folks is not.

  8. Move the crime scene. Remove fingers, head, clothes, and tats before throwing in the River. Never speak of it. Not living with a bunch of neighbors up my ass, no ring camera to worry about.

    • If the perp is a felon, his/her DNA is in the system, and nothing you’ve described will erase it. To say nothing of the fact that the police will look askance at any claim of self defense when you’ve gone to such (bloody) trouble to cover up the incident. Seems to me something similar happened recently. Four buddies went for a bike ride intending to commit some unspecified crime. When they didn’t come home, people started looking for them. When their dismembered bodies were found in a shallow river, the police got VERY SUSPICIOUS and are now looking for a “person of interest” who has suddenly disappeared. you don’t want to be that guy.

      • This incident happened in Oklahoma. The person of interest was arrested in Florida for driving a stolen car which he stole on the day the incident happened. Oklahoma is working on extradition at this time. Interesting point is that the men’s family reported them missing. it’s best to remember that even criminals have family & Friends that will miss them if they disappear. The commentary who think they can kill someone & dispose of the body without any consequences are simply deluding themselves.

        • strych9,

          I laughed out loud at your comment for several seconds. I never took you for having such an excellent dry sense of humor. I tip my hat to you fine sir!

        • the ph value of human stomach acid varies betwixt 1.5 and 3.5 normally.
          and i’ve not yet had my brekbrek.

  9. “No state’s attorney is going to risk re-election for you.” That goes double if you shoot one of his constituents”.

    Remember violent criminals are core “constituents” of the socialist-democrat party, don’t think so? See Portland, LA, St. Louis, Chiraq, NYC, Baltimore, and Washington DC.

  10. The paranoids have often ended up accidentally shooting innocent people in their own family.

    The examples are many but one of the most tragic was when a paranoid cop shot a person in his house and was too damn dumb to turn on a light or shine a flashlight on the suspect. It turned out it he had shot and killed his own son who had come home early from college. The dumb ass was using a tritium set of night sights. Any idiot would know that these sights only work when it is so dark that you cannot identify your target as the cop found out only too well. This story came from the now defunct newspaper “Gun Week” which I subscribed to for decades. It’s now online only and not near the gun news magazine it used to be.

    In another case a man shot an killed a high school kid that had broken into his home but the kid was WHITE and was a STAR FOOTBALL PLAYER. It took thousands paid to a defense attorney to avoid going to jail for murder because everyone in the town knew this kid.

    In another case a man was driving home from work in a RED small car. It turned out that previously another RED small car had deliberately run over a homowners lawn and mowed down his mailbox. The enraged home owner when seeing the second red car pull up to the stop sign in front of his yard ran out and opened the car door and started chocking the driver who promptly shot him with a .45 auto and killed him. The widow sued the driver for loss of companionship and the driver lost in court and had a mountain of money to pay out over the rest of his life.

    In another case IN MY OWN HOME TOWN a man had his mailbox smashed with baseball bat by a car load of drunken kids. It turned out that one of the delinquent kids had went into a gun show and stole a .357 magnum revolver and had it on him that night. The enraged home owner chased the kids in his car and cornered them on a one way street. When the home owner got out of the car and pulled open the car door the kid shot him and crippled him for life. He became confined to a wheelchair all over the loss of a $20 mailbox.

    The other outrage from the above incident is that the town the gun show was in banned gun shows forever and the promoter of the gun show was sued for millions as well.

    Yes thinking that gunning down people is always the answer to a problem or loss of a few bucks of property because you are so stingy and tight you squeeze every penny that passes through your hands until it screams for mercy and that you can kill anyone that pisses you off is not born out in today’s real world.

      • I did see a similar story to one of those. A man heard someone entering the house in the middle of the night. He checked it out and fired his gun at a shadowy figure. He “knew” his wife and daughter were in bed asleep. Nope. His young daughter had sneaked out earlier and was coming back.

    • Dacian, is there a specific reason you excluded focused only on the few hundred mistakes, horrendous though they be, and ignored the thousands of instances people used guns to save lives, both by killing a POS and by merely impressing on them they could?

    • So, even a crazy person who runs up to your car and is choking you shouldn’t be shot. You just let them choke you to death???

    • There is a hint of wisdom in the concept that dacian shared: there are rare circumstances where a “home invader” is not actually a home invader at all. That being the case, a home occupant should be certain that the person in their firearm’s sights really is a home invader before pulling the trigger.

      I have three first-hand experiences of such rare circumstances–which do not seem so rare now that I think about it.

      First experience, I was a child and went with a friend and the friend’s father to a small “observatory” with a modest telescope open to the public. It was night and we had never been there. My friend’s father misinterpreted the signage and we literally walked in to someone’s home by mistake–a totally honest mistake with zero threat to the homeowners. Fortunately the homeowners for whatever reason were not alarmed and we promptly vacated–very sorry and very embarrassed.

      Second experience, I asked a friend if I could borrow something. My friend told me that no one was home, the door was typically unlocked, and directed me to go inside to get the item. So I did. And, as I always do, I announced myself loudly–feeling really stupid speaking loudly into an empty home. Surprise! An adult family member was home unexpectedly and had no idea that anyone would be walking through the door before lunch time. Thankfully, the family member knew me and knew that I was not a threat.

      Third experience, a neighbor was leaving town for a few days and asked my child to feed her cat while she was out of town. I drove my child over to her home. My child used the key to unlock the door and go inside to feed the cat. And, at my instruction, my child announced entry into the empty home–feeling dumb about doing that. Surprise! The neighbor was home because we came over on the wrong day. (My child was confused on the dates.)

      Now, in all three instances, we did not break down a door. We were, however, potential “home invaders” as far as the home occupants were concerned. Thankfully my friend, child, and I are all here today because the home occupants did not immediately shoot us. Honest mistakes–which are zero threat to home occupants–do happen. Plan accordingly.

    • Meh. Dacian would rather an AIDS infected rapist shoot his load in his chute, than Dacian defend himself against it. So I’d take anything Dacian says with a grain of salt.

    • Of course you make it about being “stingy” and “tight” instead of about rights to life and property. Your virtue are not mine, thank goodness.

  11. I agree with most of this but the idea of allowing a crook to come into your home and steal your TV and then hand him the remote is absolutely ridiculous. Anyone coming into your home uninvited for any reason can’t be there for a valid reason. Calling the police and a warning should be sufficient. Today you are dealing with a lot of very crazy unpredictable people so you never know exactly what they plan to do and waiting too long could be fatal. It is better to always keep your doors locked and have some method of observing who is outside before you open the door. In this way if you don’t open the door and they have to break in, you have all the excuse you need to use lethal force after a quick warning and calling the police if you even have the time. I would rather be on trial for the shooting of an intruder than have them on trial for killing me.

  12. I’m a fan of TTAG, but still, wow. This is the best article I’ve ever read here, especially with the posted videos from the commenters.
    New words to live by: Stay out of stupid situations with stupid people at stupid times.

  13. “No state’s attorney is going to risk re-election for you.”

    Just remember that violent criminals are core constituents of the socciallist-demnocrat party. Don’t think so? See Portland, LA, Seattle, Denver, Detroit, Chicago, St. Louis, New Orleans, New York, Virginia Beach, and Washington DC.

    • Yes, we’ve seen these lies before.

      The fact is, Seattle, with a comparable population, has a lower violent crime rate than Jacksonville with a Republican mayor, in a red state.

      The red states pretty much have much higher murder rates than blue states, a good example in Mississippi which has a violent crime rate higher than blue California or blue New York.

      • The problem with is its not true. Its a bastion of democrat ‘adjusted’ stats and slanted i formation and anti-gun funding with ties to the Nazi party.

        • The thirdway slanted data >

          for example, they use the word ‘state’ as if its an entire ‘state’. So for example in Mississippi (since you mentioned this) the actual murder rate was 0.06 per 1,000 residents (your third way uses data that includes suspected homicide for Mississippi, this falsely inflates the numbers) where as in New York during the same period the actual murder rate was 0.15 per 1,000 residents (but the thirdway data sources omits suspected homicide for New York stats in the underlying data which falsely deflates the numbers). In other words the underlying data and numbers they use is ‘slanted’ in favor of blue states. Then in New York the murder rates are mostly around the larger cities, the same as in Mississippi, but the difference is the murder rate locations in New York is connected to all large cities in New York where as in Mississippi its mostly in the western part of the state which also happens to be the part of the state, and primarily blue, where democrat voters are/were concentrated in the state in the same time period of 2020.

          Its the same for the other blue states in your thirdway link, their murder rates are falsely deflated to make them appear to have had less murder rates than the red states.

          In other words, you are seeing data that is not representative of reality and has been slanted to paint a false picture in favor of the democrat blue states.

        • NO Booger Brain. Every time you post something you twist it to fit your radical far right agenda. What Minor49’r said was correct. I have seen other studies that also proved that Red States do indeed have higher homicide rates than strict blue states that have less guns on the street.


          According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention statistics, Oklahoma had 342 homicides in 2020. It’s a rate of 9 deaths per 100,000. In California, the homicide rate is 6.1 and in New York the rate is 4.7. So, yes, Oklahoma has a worse rate than blue states.

          The Atlantic’s Ron Brownstein cited an exhaustive study by seven academic researchers showed that “homicides over recent years increased less rapidly in cities with progressive prosecutors than in those with more traditional district attorneys. It also found no meaningful differences between cities with progressive or traditional DAs in the trends for larceny and robbery.”

          Mother Jones cited data showing a 30 percent increase in homicides under Donald Trump in major cities in 2020. Killings slowed

          Murder rates were an average of 40 percent higher in 2020 in 25 states where Donald Trump won in 2020, compared to states where Biden won. The highest murder rates are in states like Mississippi, Kentucky, Alabama, South Carolina and Arkansas. They’re all run by Republicans and have been run by Republicans for decades.

        • “anti-gun funding with ties to the Nazi party”

          Really? You have got to provide some source to back up that assertion.

          I understand you may have problems with the source, but do you have an actual disagreement with the content? And if you do disagree, do you have a specific issue you believe is false?

        • @dacian

          Evidently your reading comprehension problems got in the way. Learn what context means and drop the confirmation bias.

    • Yessir. A backhoe running at 1 am after the neighbors called the cops to report the sound of gunfire will not draw any attention.

        • jwn, I’ve known several people from West Virginia who moved to San Francisco like you did, to enjoy the freedom San Francisco offers to folks to just be themselves.

          I’m glad you found the freedom you needed…

        • He’s trying to gay slander me. I did not move to San Francisco. I moved to the bay area. For economic opportunities I did not have in WV. I found them here. Doing quite well for myself and the 7 kids and dozen or so grandkids that I have.

          Surprises me, not, that a long standing liberal troll like miner would hint around at gayness. I thought gays were off limits and to be admired.

          WV is not freer than CA. Try living in a small community that is almost totally democrat controlled. Everybody knows your business. I have no doubt that if I contacted some family in WV I would know who miner was within a week. Hell, he might even be family.

          S9. Having my human and civil rights curtailed simply by my zip code is not a problem of my own making. No where in the constitution does it say I have to live here or there or my rights are void.

  14. here, there is an automatic presumption in state law that a person(s) breaking into your home is intending great bodily harm or death to occupants. No warnings are required here for defense of either home or self. Here, you can start shooting as soon as they show intent to enter (for example, they break out a window and are trying to climb in) and don’t need to wait until they are inside as long as you can show they intended to enter. They don’t need to make the threat of great bodily harm or death realized or act on it for you to be able to shoot them. So for example, if they break in to take the TV you don’t need to tell them to take the remote too and you can shoot them.

    That being said, do people actually shoot first in the area I live or even in the rest of the state? Most don’t actually shoot the bad guy, they may sometimes fire a shot into the ground or even into a wall to get the point across and sometimes they may yell a warning and the bad guy flees.

    Its not like, for example, dacian and his anti-gun buddies makes it out to be with a bunch of blood thirsty gun owners blasting away at anything – its actually rare for a person to actually shoot an intruder or in self defense, less then 5% of the time. Most times its a warning or a brandishing that causes the bad guy to flee. The media and anti-gun would have you believe all gun owners just start blasting away and its simply not true.

    Am I going to shoot someone who breaks in? I have, and I will not hesitate if its needed.

  15. why is the state of mind always considered FOR THE CRIMINAL ;IN THE CRIMINALS

    BUT the law abiding citizen is not afforded the same?

    B/C we have allowed the pro criminal to have taken over


    but to simple fold over and to continue to ALLOW the pro Criminal mindset to take charge

    is our fault and the NRA’s fault for not using alllll that power and money to get the mindset changed

  16. In the 1st story, the shooting victims were bad guys for playing loud music and arguing with the trigger-happy paranoiac?

  17. the vast majority of stranger to stranger homicides are never solved. gang bangers understand this which is why they indulge in gang banging. sometimes shoot, shoved (or don’t shovel) and shut up is the best legal strategy.

    having a body discovered in your yard or even inside your house is problematic. consider hooking them up behind your vehicle and taking them for a drag. keep dragging until there is nothing left on the end of the rope, then dump the rope.

  18. This article made sense years ago when we had rule of law.

    The rule of law doesn’t exist in much of America now however. I’m not gonna sit around twiddling about the finer points of legal philosophy when I get attacked. Second guessing, hesitating, bending over for the bad guy, yeah I’m not getting killed or letting my family be raped, sorry not sorry. I’m going to defend myself and my family.

    With this new era of criminals being straight up allowed to commit violent crime and be released, what’s the point in innocent people sweating over the finer points of the law?

    Personally I think we’re about to enter an age of vigilante justice. And I also think it’s justified. And no I don’t give a flying Fuck who reads this or what some hypothetical prosecutor might have to say about my opinion. First amendment applies to everyone, not just leftists. I will not be cowed into keeping my opinions to myself when criminals and leftists are allowed to straight up threaten terrorism and assassination and get away with it. So, fuck you if you disagree. I don’t care. I’ll do what’s necessary to defend me and mine.

    • That’s not really vigilante justice so much as it’s bellum omnium contra omnes. Which, likely, you’re going to get no matter what, opinions be damned.

      The only real question is when we quit the subtle shit with this “cold” civil war and get along to the exciting parts. The torture, murder and atrocity writ large, since that’s how this sorta thing goes with our species.

      Some will argue that a “cold civil war” isn’t a thing. I’d point them to Webster’s definition 2b, “a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end”.

      That’s where we are now no matter how you want to cut things. There seems to be no appetite on either side for deescalating the situation but a Hell of a lot of interest in stoking the fire. That can only end one way. Poorly and to the benefit of exactly no one living here.

      And so, you might ask who would win such a thing once the ram touched the wall. Well, purely contained as an internal US conflict the Left loses quite badly and very quickly. The idea that a Leftist government could actually win this is a bad joke foisted on us by propagandists, those with a history deficiency, the innumerate and morons in general.

      However, those big Blue states control quite a few rather nice port facilities so foreign aid is a real possibility assuming the rest of the world isn’t totally fucked… but maybe we end up like Russia in 1917, a world war and a civil war and no real interference with our internal issues.

      Otherwise our true adversaries, internationally, would profit most from finding a way to arm and equip both sides to make sure the demise of the US is assured as we slug it out for better than 65% population reduction.

      Fun times, the fall of Empire. At least the historians will have a lot of awesome video of it.

  19. Just as an addendum to #6 – 911 calls are recorded, and are admissible as evidence. It’s not the time to try to explain the how and why of the incident. Let your attorney deal with that.

  20. Yes better to call the cops and let them take care of it.
    Then when the perpetrator is down on the ground the cops can empty their gunms, reload, empty them again then send in the K9 to chew on his leg so the cops can shoot him some more because the perpetrator moved.
    Ain’t fair.
    If someone takes a shot at me I should be able to end that guys life no matter how far I have to chase him or no matter how many times I have to reload.
    Because if the guy that shot at me ain’t dead he might try to kill me again.

    • englewood.
      i slide thru each and everyday, along with austin and garfield park. born in the upstairs bathtub of a graystone great grammar built in ’02 in humboldt; my area also. see lawndale.
      ain’t nothin’ nice goin’ on ‘roun’ here.
      but you can’t beat the vittles.

  21. As to an attorney- now is the time to select one and have their number in your phone, (or your carry insurance number to contact immediately if they’re providing the lawyer) so you’re ready. I find most of the bad things I prepare for don’t happen, while the ones I don’t keep coming up.

  22. John, I can’t find a word in this article that I disagree with. One of my main goals in life is to never shoot anybody. But it will always be the very last option when all else fails.

    BTW Billy Badass’, John’s comments are based on real events, not emotions.


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