I was wondering why the tale of a rifle-toting man shot in an Ohio Walmart didn’t trigger the Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America anti-gun group’s hysteria alert system. After all, MDA’s only success has been their unsuccessful attempts to get chain stores and restaurants to ban legally carried firearms from their premises. When the story first hit the net, John Crawford’s death at the hands of a brace of Ohio cops seemed to make MDA’s point that guns should be banned from Walmart – forgetting the fact that a crazy man with a gun in a store argues for allowing gun owners to exercise their gun rights within a Walmart. Well, it turns out . . .
A man shot dead by police in a U.S. supermarket may have been killed after picking up a toy gun, his relatives have claimed.
John Crawford was gunned down at a Walmart store in Beavercreek amid reports that he was waving a rifle at customers, including children.
But relatives of the 22-year-old have contacted civil rights organisations after claiming he was holding a toy gun in the toy section of the shop when the incident unfolded.
LeeCee Johnson, who has claimed to be the mother of Mr Crawford’s two children, said she was speaking to him on the telephone when police descended on the scene . . .
Tasha Thomas who has said she was Mr Crawford’s current girlfriend said he was not armed when he walked into the store and that she was in another aisle when the incident happened.
The Daily Mail’s summation of the story’s new arc puts a whole new spin on Mr, Crawford’s ballistic bad end. It also tells us something very important about anti-gun true believers – some of whom have promised to call 911 whenever they see someone practicing open carry. Malicious intel can kill:
The drama unfolded on Tuesday night after a witness at the scene told a 911 dispatcher that a man with a rifle was near the pet supplies section and appeared to be loading a firearm.
‘There is a gentleman walking around with a gun in the store. … He’s, like, pointing it at people,’ the witness said . . .
Authorities say a customer also died after suffering a medical problem during the evacuation of the store Tuesday. Police identified her as Angela Williams, 37, of Fairborn.
An update from abcnews.go.com adds a little more depth to the ‘toy gun’ claim.
A man who was fatally shot by police in a Wal-Mart store in a Dayton suburb after officers say he waved a weapon at customers was carrying an air rifle, Ohio’s attorney general said Thursday.
Attorney General Mike DeWine released a brief statement after the state’s crime bureau said it had taken over the investigation of the shooting at the request of Beavercreek police. Police had said John Crawford, 22, waved a rifle at customers Tuesday night and was fatally shot when he wouldn’t drop the weapon. DeWine said the man had a “variable pump air rifle” made by Crosman Corp.
And then there’s the racial question. Was Crawford guilty of PWGWB (Playing With Guns While Black)?
After the shooting, Chief Dennis Evers, Beavercreek police Department, said: ‘Officers confronted the subject inside the store area near the pet supplies holding a rifle. The officers gave verbal command to the subject to drop the weapon.
‘The subject later identified as John Crawford was shot after failing to comply with the officer’s commands.’
It seems that what we have here is a failure to communicate, by the “witness,” the 911 dispatcher, Mr. Crawford (perhaps) and the cops in question. You can pretty much guess what happens next: lawsuit, wrist-slap, taxpayer-funded payout and a call to ban toy guns from Walmart. One way or another, the bottom line is that Mr. Crawford was killed by anti-gun culture. You have been warned. Again. Still. [h/t MS]
Black man with kids. Can’t call him a child so 2 strikes against him (Black and Older) – Shannon hates the brothers, hence no outctry
yes, this is all about race and thus no outcry. Had it been little white kids or a white man with kids then the outcry would be on the 6 o’clock news. There is no outcry when it comes to non white kids getting killed everyday in Chicago or Atlanta when it is gang related. Yeah, Shannon wont wave the bloody flag on this one.
They only count in the stats.
It matters to me.
Are you with MDA?
gung ho cops, Anyone with gun knowledge can tell an air gun from a real gun. The cops over reacted!!!!!!
The cops dont have near the training they need. I can put a bullit in your arm holding the gun as easily as putting one in your heart. This reminds me of thsanta ana police who shot a retarded man 9 times on Harbor blvd because he was hitting cars with a piece of pipe. And yes they killed him.The police now believe they are God and you must obey immediatly or they will shoot you.
You’re an idiot and you are lying. You have no gun knowledge what-so-ever.
Had it been a white man with the pellet gun, the 911 call would had never been made. The premise that the anti-gun culture created an air of gun danger is absurd, lunatic with guns did that. This was a case of racial profiling by the citizen caller.
There is outcry…but no one is listening on my facebook page. The two guys I suspected least seem to have this idea that the initial media story is all there is to it. They say ‘he got what he deserved’ and ‘play stupid games win stupid prizes’.
What they dont seem to realize is that Crawford was not playing stupid games. He wasnt pointing the gun at anyone, never did. He was still in the toy section where he found the gun. No one else panicked, only that one guy who tried to panic others. Crawford was murdered and I sincerily hope that Ritchie gets sued in civil court and prosecuted in state court.
There was a small protest planned today at the Beavercreek Police station. I emailed the Facebook link yesterday to TTAG.
I agree. This was definitely about race. Yes he should have not been playing with the gun! For all those who are FOR his murder. Let’s face it he a black man was in a Wal-Mart located in a predominantly white city playing with a gun that’s for purchase. A white witness saw this man an panic, if that white witness would have simply minded their business, I’m pretty sure the victim would have put the gun down, walked over to his girlfriend, joked with her about the gun. They would have purchased whatever they had an left the store. Once again yes he should of had common sense but that does not mean he deserved to die.
false. the reason you heard about this story is because he is black. had the victim been white it would have never made the news. racism got him killed and racism made him famous. on both sides.
White Americans’ Support for Prison-Industrial Complex Grows With Knowledge That It’s Harder on Blacks
Hang on – all the air rifles I’ve ever seen at Wal-Mart are in some kind of packaging. I wonder why it was not packed up?
Boxes get damaged and parts get stolen or broken. I got an air rifle there with a nice discount because it had no box and no scope.
The title- though accurate- made me think someone somehow managed to shoot themselves with an air gun sold in Wal Mart/As for the Daily Mail, the only thing they hate more than guns is cops, so they’ll work hard to make both at fault if possible.
I wonder if this gentleman has a criminal record. If so I bet his family will say he was just turning his life around. That’s a dangerous thing to be doing. Everyone who gets shot by the police was just turning their lives around, from what the families say.
Ah, here we go:
“Crawford’s criminal record includes a weapons violation, and dates to 2011 when he was picked up and sentenced for disorderly conduct…In August 2013, Crawford was arrested for carrying a concealed weapon, and receiving stolen property. In October 2013, he was arrested for domestic violence and possession of drug paraphernalia; the domestic violence charge was dropped. He was arrested in 2012 for drug possession, and twice for that same offense in 2013.”
If Obama had a son . . .
None of which anybody knew about when he was shot. Prior record does factor into some events, but I fail to see what his criminal past has to do with getting shot while holding an air rifle in a store that sells air rifles.
If I’m walking around anywhere in public and a cop with a drawn gun says STOP, then I’m going to stop. Right or wrong, I’m going to stop and sort it out later.
If I’m walking around in public with a very realistic looking plastic replica gun (and possibly pointing it at people) and a cop says stop and I don’t, I would expect I could get shot.
I don’t get the outrage here. Stupid person doing stupid things.
Well one time I was on the side of my apartment building drilling in a dryer vent cover with a large black drill…when a cop car pulls up on me so fast I was in shock for a second.
Two cops stand behind their doors pointing their guns at me, I think they said freeze or don’t move…to tell the truth the shock I was in makes it hard to remember the words they used.
Anyway… my first instinct was to raise my hands..I started to lift my hands from my sides with the drill while loudly saying “It’s a drill”.
At that moment they yelled something and for a second I thought they where going to shoot me.
Luckily instead of jumping or jerking I totally froze, maybe if I jumped or jerked when they yelled.. they would of fired. Who knows.
They realized that thing in my hand was a drill and put their guns away and said they where sorry.
So it’s hard to know how a person will react in a situation like that…we don’t know for sure Crawford refused to obey..maybe he was in shock and things happened so fast.
Look at the Fouad Kaady story…If you listen to the interviews of the cops who killed him… it sounds like the time of their arrival to the time they murdered him was minutes.. but in reality the whole crazy situation happened within 28 seconds.
If you failed to contact the Chief of Cops to inform him of the incident and that he had morons (with names) working for him, you are part of the problem.
That is what I was wondering also, how would the cops have known his identity before they got there? His record seems totally immaterial.
The record matters because it shows he’s prone to acting like an idiot. Seeing his record, I’m more likely to believe what the witnesses say.
It’s obviously not proof but it does tip the scales a bit.
Food for thought… John Crawford was shot at a Walmart in Beavercreek, OH. A smaller city with a population a little over double of an average small town in the US.
I imagine the cops probably did have a good handle on all the local troublemakers. The part of town he was in wasn’t the best. The cops probably didn’t know his detailed past, but they probably did recognize him. Stolen property and weapons charges in the past, I imagine he was part of a gang. Probably dressed as a thug.
Responding police have to take in all information and have almost no time to consider it before making decisions. Had it been someone in the subjective opinion of the first responding officer that the guy just looked like he was looking through the scope of his new hunting rifle we was going to take out this weekend for deer season, nothing would have happened except maybe a stern talking to. But this guy was a known thug, with a history of carrying unlicensed guns. Act like a gang member, dress like a gang member, known as a gang member pointing a gun around in Walmart IS going to get you shot by the local PD.
So YES it does make a difference if he has a long criminal past.
I’ve lived in Beavercreek for 40+ years and your speculations are all completely wrong. He was not a Beavercreek citizen and was shopping in an area of town many of the one million people in the Dayton region shop in. The police did not know him. And your stereotype assumptions about Crawford display a high degree of ignorance.
Now hold on. His criminal record doesn’t automatically make him in the wrong. I know having a record, especially one as escalating as Crawford’s, makes him suspect in the eyes of many, but this incident should be examined on its own merits.
Let’s actually break that record down and look at it:
‘carrying a concealed weapon’ – gee, something most of us do everyday and argue that it should be unrestricted and commonplace. NEXT!
‘Receiving stolen property’ – this one is a little more insidious but it could be as simple as a friend of his sold him a TV that turned out to be hot. In either case it is neither violent nor particularly damaging to his nature.
‘Domestic Violence’ – Big one, but it was dropped so it makes me think it was simply a case of mad woman syndrome.
‘Drug possession’ – Gee, a victimless crime that many of us believe should be legal for consenting adults? NEXT!
Oh wait, thats it. So you have a black guy with a mild problem with authority who smokes a joint occasionally. Not exactly a criminal mastermind.
Let me break down your breakdown, in which you seem to be trying to give this guy more than just the benefit of the doubt.
– Concealed weapon: Not much information about this one, but I will say that Ohio is not New Jersey and it’s not at all impossible to be a law-abiding conceal carrier.
– Receiving Stolen Property: Yeah I’m sure he just happened to bring that hot TV into the police station to check and make sure it wasn’t stolen when they booked him. Or, much much more likely, he was involved in theft and got pinched for something because they couldn’t get him for everything. At the least this shows poor judgement.
– Domestic Violence getting dropped is not indicative of ‘mad woman’ syndrome, a mad woman will testify and there will be a result, either guilty or not guilty. A dropped DV charge means the little lady’s bruises faded from where he beat her and she decided she could never send her guy to prison, so she declines to testify. Happens all. the. time.
– Drug possession: okay, still a crime that this guy gets arrested for 3 times!
– Disorderly Conduct: Depends on severity, but again, shows poor impulse control
Any one of these could happen to lots of people who will never be shot, but how many of you can’t count how many times you’ve been arrested without going onto a second hand? There’s no such thing as luck, but there are shit-magnets out there. I’m sure plenty of people have smoked pot, or carried a weapon outside the bounds of the law, but they never get caught because they don’t act like morons. This guy has been getting in trouble time after time after time (excuses and hand-waving aside) and that’s the kind of person that no one should be surprised ends up finally doing something that gets him shot.
As I said before, a criminal history doesn’t indicate whether a particular use of force was justified. But if I were a betting man, I wouldn’t disregard…
I have probably bought more than 25 TVs in my life, yet I have never taken even one to the police station to check if it was stolen. So shoot me.
I dissent in part, based on my experiences with my own clients – It’s about attitude, and how one carries oneself when confronted by authority. If you’ve been around career criminals long enough (though I don’t know the level of experience of the responding officers), they’re easily identified.
Being a career criminal does create an attitude of antipathy for police. The fact that he wouldn’t comply with officers’ commands is an inherent issue, having been arrested, tried, convicted and sentenced on multiple occasions. This usually gives rise to more resistance to authority, once a person like this (generally speaking), is in open society.
My “resisting” cases with first-timers are usually the result of intoxication. In subsequent arrests, it’s a matter of reluctance to submit to any authority, whether it’s police, or conditions of parole/probation. The latter is an administrative issue, the former will get you hurt, or worse…
The problem I see is keystone cops, hyped on adrenalin, yelling contradictory orders so fast a Marine boot would be taken off guard. At least the drill instructors know how to be professional.
For the cops in that situation, or anybody, tunnel vision sets in, along with a loss of time tracking. What seems like minutes are tenths of a second.
Except, that the merits of any given case can include important blocks of missing, inconclusive or contradictory evidence and testimony. Gaps in facts must filled and values of available evidence must be weighted. Part of the comes from the credibility of those involved, including the deceased.
Despite all the pro-druggie apologizing and race card race baiting, what we have here is a screwed up waste of life who, surprise!, wound up ending his life under violent circumstances. I say roll the tape and let’s see what happened, and collect all the other evidence and let’s assess it.
At the end of it all, though, two irrefutable facts will remain: thousands of people purchase toy guns, BB guns, pellet guns, paintball guns and real guns at retail stores every day, and don’t get shot by police. The only one who did get shot, just happened also to be a drug thug with a long rap sheet. Curious, that.
Couple months ago, a local drug thug went to Dicks and purchased a pellet gun.managed to shoot him self in the foot. Filed a false police report, got a few months of educational rehab.
As I said before, a criminal history doesn’t indicate whether a particular use of force was justified. But if I were a betting man, I wouldn’t disregard…
You just blew your own argument out of the water, officer. Inconveniently enough for some, due process requires evidence rather than “safe bets.”
You don’t gamble on anyone’s life or liberty, ever.
This is ridiculous. As an air-soft retailer, I know what the crossman series of airsoft rifles are. As a retired State policeman, I also know that the Crossman guns have a bright orange tip on the end of them. This is because this is what identifies them as a toy and not a real gun. Clearly, in this case, if it was a Wal-Mart crossman, then the police over-reacted and shot to death an innocent man. It matters not what his criminal background was. Let me offer my condolences to his family. It is tragic, and should never have happened… Period.
What you say is true about Airsoft. But this was NOT an Airsoft. It was a BB/pellet gun facsimile of the real thing.
You’re right, Raul. I’ve seen them, they are a good reproduction of the real thing. No orange tip on the pellet guns. I think the manufacturers should consider the danger of placing a reproduction of a “assault” weapon in the hands of kids. This was not the first time someone was killed while carrying a toy or pellet gun.
Have to agree with Pulatso, unless them cops have some fancy facial recognition Bounty Hunter style shit to pick out targets, I imagine it was just a man with a gun call.
When I bought my air rifle at Walmart, I was not allowed to handle it until leaving the store. He had to have opened a box, taken out the rifle and startied aiming it around the store. Most of the air rifles are secure so he probably cut the cable too. Bad behaviour gets you in bad trouble. Sad that it ended his life but WTFWHD?!
The Wal-marts in Texas just leave the air guns out in the open. Yes, they have boxes, but they’re just cardboard, most of them aren’t even taped shut, and there is no cable system locking them in place. Yes, he opened the box and handled the rifle, just like anybody who has ever wanted to inspect a potential purchase before buying.
Yea a lot of the air rifles at my local wally world are just in boxes or plastic clampack, nothin too difficult. When I bought a shotgun at Walmart (1st and only gun purchase there me thinks), I wasnt even allowed to touch it until we were outside the store and he basically told me to have a good day or put it in my trunk if I was going back inside to shop.
@Mike In GA, Ive honestly never really thought about how they might be stored in different states etc But yea I imagine taking it out of the box + playing around with it could really raise some eyebrows… VERY curious to see the information that comes out of this in the coming days.
I remember now. I bought the Ruger Airhawk 1200fps with the wood stock (no compass). It wasn’t locked down but it had a criss cross cable around the box with the electronic security device on it. I think it had to do with the price rather than being a gun. I took it to the cashier but she had to get a manager to come remove the device and then escort me out of the building.
Air rifles in Wally World here are just on the shelf. Pick it up, stick it in your cart and go to the main check out.
The actual rifles and shotguns are in a locked case. Never bought one, but since many folks open carry everywhere around here, (doesn’t raise any eyebrows) I’m assuming you just pay and walk out with it.
I’ll have to ask next time I go.
I believe it has to be boxed up, firearms that is. I bought a Yildiz over and under 12g from Academy and the only one they had was the display. Instead of breaking it down and putting it in the box, they had a teen age girl carry it out of the store for me. She was obviously nervous around guns and felt uneasy carrying the gun through the store. I told her to open the gun so it would look safe. She said she did not know how to do that so I said I would do it. She handed me the shotgun and I swung the lever over and folded the gun open then handed it back to her. She said thanks and we continued out of the store. Now isn’t that silly?
Same thing with ammo. In a few Walmarts I’ve shopped in customers aren’t allowed to carry ammo to a front check out register, and no sales are made directly from or in the sporting goods department. I always felt like a fool with the 18 year-old pimple-faced boy carrying my ammo up front for me. Not sure to feel threatening or inadequate while I make that walk.
Never had an ammo walk at Walmart. Just pay in sporting goods and take it with me for the rest of my shopping.
As far as their walking out guns, here in Southern Illinois, that walk usually get the purchaser looks of envy. 🙂
Hey, Raul. The ammo escort has only happened to me 3 times. I don’t want to offend anyone on here, but each time it’s been in a Walmart located in a seedy thug infested area of a certain large southern city that will soon be the next Detroit. Each time I’ve received an apology from the sporting goods clerk, along with an explanation that ammo often never reaches the register when not brought up front by a clerk. I don’t complain.
Ah, that would explain it. Did they aiffer you an escort to your car, as well? It’s the least they could do after putting a target on you.
No parking lot escort by Walmart, but by a friend named Beretta, yes.
Ah… Shopping with your 3rd best friend. After your wife and dog, of course. 🙂
@Michael in GA: At least the young lady recognized her own training limitations and acted with extra caution. She didn’t know how to clear the chamber but recognized that mishandling a firearm can have grave repercussions. An alternative could’ve been that she acted ignorantly and negligently.
I agree, such store policies are somewhat over the top at times.
All the Walmarts I have ever been to (five different ones in my area), no matter how affluent the neighborhood, has the ammo either in a locked case or behind a counter in sporting goods. Every single one has a cash register in sporting goods where you pay. The only time I have done the “ammo walk” was if the register was not working in sporting goods.
In all other Walmarts I’ve been able to continue shopping after my ammo purchases were paid for in the sporting goods department. However, my shopping experiences were totally different at the Walmart Super Center located on Martin Luther King Jr Dr in Atlanta Georgia. The surrounding streets, and even the Walmart parking lot looks like a third world country, with trash, malt liquor bottles, and used syringes strewn everywhere. I was working near that area and took advantage of the then still available .308 cal. in that particular store during the shortage. They were usually sold out of “the Nines”. Go figure. LOL
@ John in Ohio
It wasn’t a lack of training…it was no training at all. She was totally phobic about even seeing a shotgun. I think this might have been the first time she even held a gun. I hope our conversation as we walked through the store alleviated much of her fear of guns for the future.
The title also led me to believe somebody was shot with an air rifle. Not the story I was expecting.
On to the bone I want to pick…
I wonder if this gentleman has a criminal record.
How is it relevant to the situation at hand? Dunno about the local laws, but one has to assume that his fairly recent charges included a felony for which he was likely still in contact with a PO, which in most areas means possession of even a toy/pneumatic gun is a nono. That said, the article gives no indication that his identity and criminal history was verified prior to the shooting.
Instead, we have a “panicked” 911 call in which the caller used words like “gentleman” followed with “he’s, like…” Doesn’t exactly sound frantic to me, and yes, I understand that interpretation of vocal inflection is very rarely relayed by dispatch. Was he compliant when officers arrived? Did he point the “weapon” at officers when they arrived? What about other customers? The only available answers to these questions come from the thin blue line that smoked the guy, so the source has to be taken into account.
I can’t and won’t side with either the cops or the dead guy here, but bad shoots DO happen and we need to examine the evidence and have a discussion about it. Excusing a shoot out of hand because the guy isn’t/wasn’t an angel is careless, even if you have a dog in this fight.
P.S. The article states it was a Crosman air rifle. That leads me to believe it was a Crosman variable pump air rifle that Wal Mart sells. Making it likely a Crosman Pumpmaster 760, which last I checked was the only Crosman variable Wal Mart sells (at least locally.) While this ISN’T a toy by any means, is’t a f*cking Pumpmaster, the air rifle many of us grew up with and is NOT easy to mistake for a real rifle unless you’re a complete f*cking degenerate or have zero experience with rifles/air rifles on the whole.
Would be tragically ironic if it just so happened to be the pink stock 760…
Walmart also sells the M4-177. http://www.crosman.com/airguns/rifles/pump/M4-177
The thing is though, all of them come in boxes. Why was it out of the box?
I noticed somebody mentioned that it was an MK-177 in a post down below. I looked it up and Wal Mart does indeed sell it, haven’t seen it in my local store but that happens. I have, however, only seen it mentioned that the Crosman MK-177 was what he was carrying in a blog post about it, not a news article (like those are more reliable…)
It does potentially remove the Crosman 760 thing from the equation, but the fact remains we have conflicting stories about a shooting and the people doing the investigating did the shooting and we DON’T have any reason to assign/deny guilt one way or the other. One couple made the 911 call and stated the rest of the store was unconcerned, we have police on scene who shot someone who by the 911 caller’s OWN ADMISSION was shot as he turned in response to their command to “drop the gun,” we have a pair of 911 callers who were so terrified for their lives the followed the guy through the store to warn other people he was carrying a gun. The 911 call sounds more like some folks wanting to cause trouble for the “guy with the gun” than anything.
The fact of the matter is until the surveillance video is released (if it is ever is,) we only have statements from invested parties from which we can base an opinion. Let’s not assume guilt or innocence on the part of either the cops or the deceased until we have something better to go on.
Some of you just make me shake my head. His criminal history is relevant here and now because it should give you guys a clue that maybe, just maybe, this was yet another in a series of poor life choices for this gentleman who has a habit of poor impulse control and getting in trouble with the law more than I get in trouble with my mother in law.
Whether the shooting was justified or not depends on his actions at the time, of course. But the narrative being spun by his family- and seemingly bought by a few here- is of an angel who was just playing with a toy gun. If you can’t smell the BS from your computer screens, I don’t know what to tell you.
The other side of the story is that being spun by the cops who actually shot the guy. I stated that off-the-bat I wasn’t siding with either party, you on the other hand are immediately siding with the cops.
You have as much evidence as I do and you actually ARE picking sides. That thin blue line isn’t so thin, huh? So shake your head somewhere else; the circumstances are relevant, not the guy’s past convictions of non-violent crime.
“His criminal history is relevant here”
What they are saying is that his criminal history was NOT relevant to his getting shot.
And you should know that, because I’m assuming you have studied Graham vs Connor and the important practical guidance about police use of deadly force that case gives us.
If you are trying to use his record as justification for deadly force, that is truly scary.
On the other hand, as I suspect is the case, you saying that his criminal record is consistent with the kind of poor decision making that SUGGEST (but does not prove) he escalated this situation through further poor decisions, then of course I would agree.
Man, you and I need to get together for beers at some point…
I do shoot IDPA at Dunn occasionally (but not tomorrow). You ever get over that way?
Here’s the range:
I live about 45 minutes away from there, busy getting ready for the wedding so not shooting tomorrow either. 🙁
As soon as Walmart runs the Audio/video of this murder they will be out of business quicker than flash of lightening!
The criminal record does indicate a history of poor choices, and/or lack of judgment. In addition to violating the 4 rules of gun handling, particularly “don’t point it at anything you aren’t willing to shoot”, he violated one of the rules of dealing with police: When they tell you to drop the gun – drop the gun. Don’t point it at them, expecting them to understand that it is “only a pellet gun”.
And further, “it’s only a pellet gun” is likely to fail the Objective Reasonableness standard.
It’s not good enough for us to judge the cops’ (or others, actually) actions based on what we know after the fact. We are only supposed to judge their actions based on what a reasonable person would have known (and done) at the time.
This is a very important nuance, because it is highly relevant for us in self defense cases as well.
If Walmart showed the video and audio of this atrocity they would be out of business today!
With such a record he would, one would expect, know how to react to cops coming at him; having lived through his past arrests. We won’t ever know the real story but I bet that a trigger was pulled by someone with too much adrenaline pumping through them for their own good.
That is certainly not a big criminal record. There might be some things in his juvenile record but that, of course, hasn’t been released. His record that has been posted so far is small. Also, arrests =/= convictions. I have some arrests on my record as well. It happens sometimes.
That’s no rap sheet. Now this…
…is a rap sheet.
I’m the first to criticize when the police do things that are tactically stupid, violate civil liberties, or involve excessive force, but this seems legit. He had a weapon and was noncompliant. If he made the mistake of pointing it, then that’s all it would take to justify lethal force.
To the person who dug up Crawford ‘ s record…good for you. There is Always justification for killing a black male when the have a record. They don’t need to live. In order for your life to be worth something, you must have a clear record as a black male. Even if you were not endangering any one’s life at the time of the homocide. You have a revord! So bang, bang, you’re dead.
Is this sarcasm or are you being serious?
Are u related to Hannibal lector/ the cannibal? Why were u stalking this man and keeping up with his criminal record? I’m sure u know that the reason black men are being killed is for their body parts. Now chew on that for a while!
Cheyenne, I guess we are all stalkers if reading news reports on other than main stream liberal web sites is what you call stalking. I believe being uninformed, unaware, in denial, and complacent by not researching details on these happenings is worse than being called a stalker of the news. What is that talk about black men being killed for body parts?
So in what way does his criminal record play into this incident? Did the slithering tongue of the overactive imagination of a idiot couple have the air gun carriers rap sheet to read it off to 911 at the time of this or their so called frantic call ……silence obviously a No.. ..did they even know his name? …..second No……or did the obviously mentally disturb couple who
created and stirred the pot for this massacre had access to the state CIC and
ran a check on a unknown BLACK MAN
that had to be robbing the store because
he was Black what better excuse to evoke
panic BlACK and CARRYING a weapon is
enough motive for any cop to shoot first and ask questions later. It could have been
any kind of black man in that store a black doctor black lawyer another ununiformed
black cop that had no rap sheet doing the exact same thing this guy was doing with
the same outcome because what you
people fail to realize is our RAP SHEET is
our Color we all carry this same rap sheet like a scarlet letter no matter what our background is our color convicts us!
Will book mark this story for the next time a smart-aleck gun-controller starts a conversation about causing panic and mayhem if they see something resembling a gun.
What good would that do? Their logic is that all guns are bad, even air guns. Ergo, if you have a gun, cops should shoot you. QED.
A scary number of them would go so far as to say, “You disagree with me so cops should shoot you.”
Are black males the only people walking around with guns, or is that just my imagination? Cause they’re the only ones Mistakenly or otherwise shot by the police and others who claim ‘fear’. People are starting to see a pattern, and it’s not pretty.
I’m pretty sure cops shoot the same percentage of white urban ghetto drug dealing gang bangers as black ones. To the decimal point.
ie, if you want to be treated the same as some other ethnic group, you need to start by following the same rules as followed by that other ethnic group.
actually white eople get shot by police all the time too it just doesnt make the news because there no one to make a policital buck off it.
If Charlton Hesston had a son, he’d look like John Crawford.
Need to see the surveillance video.
Yup, this was a Wal-Mart after all. There should be plenty of footage.
The late Charleton Heston (note the spelling) has a son. His name is Fraser. He does not in any way resemble this man.
If you are going to troll, don’t troll stupidly. Do some research, read a book, get out of your parents’ basement. It’ll do you a world of good.
Quite a shame. Was reading a news article about this story, the ex-girlfriend says as she was talking to him on the phone he suddenly said “It’s not real…” followed immediately by gunshots.
Can you find and link this article? That is the sort of thing we should read as it’s relevant to the story and the only information provided here is the statement from the PD.
LeeCee Johnson, who said she is the mother of Crawford’s children, said she was on a cell phone call with Crawford when he was shot by officers. She said Crawford went to the area to visit family members.
“We was just talking. He said he was at the video games playing videos and he went over there by the toy section where the toy guns were. And the next thing I know, he said ‘It’s not real,’ and the police start shooting and they said ‘Get on the ground,’ but he was already on the ground because they had shot him,” she said, adding: “And I could hear him just crying and screaming. I feel like they shot him down like he was not even human.”
@John and Jake
Excellent, thanks guys.
“Drop the (BANG!) gun!” BANG! BANG! Well, at least he was warned.
Exactly. One of the many unintended consequences of MSM scaremongering is that it works on the police too. Undoubtedly, in a climate of such media generated fear, any police will be more prone to assume the worst, and quicker to shoot – perhaps too quick (and that saying a lot for an already twitchy bunch).
Turn a real-looking gun towards anyone carrying and you’re likely to get dropped. If that’s what really happened, I’ve got no problem with the police response.
HOLDING a gun alone does not typically meet the standard of ability, opportunity and jeopardy. I suggest you educate yourself on this before commenting again.
Nowhere in the above poster’s comment nor in the story I read did it say he POINTED (or, to use your phrasing, “turned it on”) the cops.
All we have is supposedly a 9-11 caller claimed he was pointing it at people. That merits investigation, but not killing.
If he was shot for not DROPPING the gun, but never pointed it, the civil case will be might interesting.
But, your comment demonstrates a clear lack of understanding both the law and how these kinds of cases are investigated and adjudicated. To put it mildly, there is a LOT of information missing here … too much to draw conclusions either way.
Hence the word “if”…
If unicorns farted rainbows, I guess the world would be a more colorful place.
“If” is often a waste of time and hot air.
You know, if (dang, there’s that word again) English is your second language, you should just tell everyone so people don’t mistake your lack of comprehension for the inability to follow a train of thought.
So being as that this happened at Walmart, I imagine we will see some footage, however hopefully the quality will be better than the video of the CHL holder who shot one of the crazy husband wife “revolution” team.
Sad story either way, I would imagine its fairly obvious with the current national climate that anything remotely looking like a gun,whether it is bb, airsoft or real, is going to cause some of the “gun muggles” to flip shit.
Link to the video? I’ve not seen anything other than that provided by the police.
I think a jumpy officer yelling drop the weapon while firing simultaneously is more plausible than anybody refusing to drop an air rifle with a real gun pointed at them. Would be nice to see the security video, but videos that show officers screwing up always seem to get lost somewhere.
We need to know if the “witness” had any affiliations but this whole thing stinks. Most kids can distinguish an air rifle at a glance even one that looks like an AR/AK and is being “waved” around.. Sounds like “Shoot first and don’t ask any questions.” The store video will tell the story.
“…The store video will tell the story.”
Police Department: We are going to need that video please. This is an active investigation.
Walmart: Here you go.
Police Department: Are there copies?
Police Department: **drops DVD of footage into evidence bag labeled shoelaces from decedents shoes**
Ya know, just the other day in Arizona there was an open carrier out in Norterra, and some lady from New York or some other Liberal fear-factory freaked out over it. Everybody just stared at her like she was crazy. She even called 9/11 and I’m guessing they gave her an earful because she left awfully embarrassed real quicklike.
I am genuinely sorry I missed that show. That sounds hilarious.
Obviously she wasn’t afraid for her safety if she stayed in the place calling 911…
Nor was the “eyewitness” leading up to this shooting.
Yeah; I wonder about that for me. I’ve OC’d for almost seven years here in Albuquerque and not one cop has harassed me over doing so. And plenty of cops have seen me OC’ing, especially when I use the WIFI at Dunkin Donuts(That was to good to pass up).
So I’m sure someone has called 911 saying that there’s a man with a gun that is obviously not a cop: I wonder what the 911 operator says to this person.
” Hello, 911, what is your emergency?
“OMG! I’m here vacationing from the east coast. There’s a man that isn’t a cop with a gun!
“Really? What is the man doing?
“He’s sitting down surfing the web, eating a donut and drinking coffee! ( The sound of panting and gasping as the person blurts out the info)
“Is the man threatening anyone, does he have the gun out pointed at anyone?”
“Well. OC’ing is legal here in NM, if the person doesn’t have the gun out threatening anyone, then he is not breaking the law”
“But; he has a gun! Do something!”
“Well; I would suggest the you calm down, go change your undergarments and leave the area; maybe next time vacation in California or New York City.”
The last paragraph is somewhat fanciful, but I can dream can’t I?
i want to see the video
Given the total of stories here, I agree. It should be really clear if the guy has a pellet gun in one hand and his cell phone in the other, talking to his GF when he is shot. And if that’s the case, the cop should burn. The way to determine the truth is whether the video goes missing or not.
yep, you’re right, we’ll probably find out the security cameras are operated by the Lois Lerner “OOPS, the file is lost” Security Company.
Crossman air rifles look like real guns, and can be lethal. Cops tell you to drop something, air rifle or not, you do it. If this guy was ordered to drop it and didn’t comply, I see nothing wrong with this shooting.
Problem is we don’t know if that is what happened. There are currently conflicting accounts of what really went down. I personally will reserve judgement until the video is released; I’ve know lots of guys who are thick enough to get an attitude with a police officer pointing a gun at them, but I’ve also met LEO’s who have a might makes right outlook on law enforcement.
Have to agree–up to a point. IF that’s the way it happened, and IF it wasn’t an obvious BB gun/toy/other non-rifle. In other words, there seem to be some “ifs” here.
That’s why I said if. I’m not as quick to jump on the anti-police bandwagon as a lot of these people and I’d rather wait until the full story is out to jump to conclusions.
Air rifles in Walmart are in boxes or encased in plastic. So what was it doing out? Or did he bring one into the store?
He probably opened the box or someone else opened it and he found it laying around and started playing with it.
I walked down the air-soft isle a few weeks ago at Walmart, and a lot of them were out of their boxes siting on the shelves. Of course all of them had bright orange tips as well, so I wounder how the “eye witness” and police could have missed that it was a toy.
You mean the “Marine veteran” eyewitness couldn’t tell the difference between a real rifle and a toy rifle?
My thoughts as well. This whole story has more holes than swiss cheese – and we’ll never know. During that hour the camera for that aisle suddenly malfunctioned. Oops.
a crossman pump up is a little plastic thing that looks like a toy. they are alying all over in flimsy boxes at the walarts I hve seen. they are nt in the case with the firearms. the website says it weighs 2lbs and 13 oz .
hre s a link to a video showing it.
The 760 was my first thought as well.
As stated elsewhere in the comments, and in one blog article linked by John in OH the air rifle in question is purported to be the Crosman MK-177 which IS sold on WalMart’s website so we can assume it is available in some stores.
You would be surprised the amount of people in this area, I live nearby Beavercreek, that are praising this loss of life. Then there’s the rhetoric of: “if it was real, it could have been bad”. It really disturbs me to live near so many people that want to shoot first and ask questions later.
The Walmart security video might help clarify some details. I wonder if they will release it.
From the local news report:
“DeWine said John Crawford, 22, was shot while carrying in the store a MK-177 (.177 caliber) BB/Pellet Rifle, manufactured by Crosman. It is known as a “variable pump air rifle.””
Know what an MK-177 looks like?
It’s a fricking FN-SCAR!
And it shoots real metal projectiles.
Based on the 911 caller’s interview, Crawford was pointing it at customers (incl children) and threatening them.
From what we’ve heard so far, this sounds like a justifiable police shooting, and a Darwin award candidate.
That is way different than an air-soft most people are talking about (including myself). Now I understand how someone could mistake it for a real firearm.
Ding ding ding.
Even if it just looked like a ‘regular’ air rifle, I’ll tell you right now I’m not volunteering to get shot by a .177 pellet. I use them for varmit control, and they’re plenty powerful enough to be dangerous.
Well, that is new. Haven’t seen those locally yet. I have only seen the ones that look a little like an AR. Looks like they also have a new one that looks like a krinkov and is semi-automatic.
Good shoot. If you have a weapon and are pointing it at people and don’t drop it when ordered…not seeing the problem here.
Want to see the video to be sure, but could def. be a good shoot. Or guy wasn’t actually pointing it at anybody & cops shot w/o giving him a chance to drop it. I’m sure there’s video.
Agreed that the video would be handy. Just based on the information presented I’m saying it’s good. Tape will tell the tale.
Don’t know that the cops saw him pointing it at anybody, including themselves. Can’t much disagree with the rest, if it was a weapon or a reasonable facsimile thereof and he refused to drop it or put it down.
I would imagine if he would have been handling that weapon in a safe manner he would not have been shot, and yes an air-rifle is a weapon capable of killing a human.
Sounds like a potential case of suicide by cop. Hope we find out more info.
‘There is a gentleman walking around with a gun in the store. … He’s, like, pointing it at people,’ the witness said . . .
911 operators should be trained to know that anyone incorrectly inserting “like” into a sentence is a dipshit and should be *like, um, totally ignored or something?*
I like totally agree
I know, right? Just sayin’.
Based on the logic or lack there of the women that called in the threat of a Man waving a gun should have been shot also since she was wielding a dangerous weapon, her Cell phone.
It was a guy who called. A guy who supposedly is a former Marine. Also, it was about the calmest 911 call I’ve ever heard.
Throughout the several articles I’ve read so far, I’m missing the actual 911 call. Do you have a link?
Geez, do I need to be looking over my shoulder the next time I ask them to get an AR-15 out of the gun cabinet at my local Walmart so I can look at it? It sounds ridiculous but, it’s not that much of a stretch. I’d really think long and hard about it if I was black and in the market for anything scary looking. Surely there is more to this.
You probably shouldn’t walk all over the store with it, waving it around & pointing it at people. Also, if a cop yells at you to drop it, don’t point it at him.
Did he in fact point it at the cops? Is that what they are saying? Anything (yet) to corroborate that?
That is a BIG piece of the puzzle.
Man, I wish the video would get released. I’m trying not be cynical about it, but my suspicion is that if the video shows “good shoot,” we’ll see the vid pretty soon. If not, will we see it at all?
He probably didn’t understand that it wasn’t and airsoft gun. My guess is he thought it was a toy, and he was playing with it. The airsoft guns are kept in the same place as the BB/Pellet guns in most stores.
a very tragic turn of events. The cell phone hero didn’t do anyone any favors.
even if Justified or not(did they give him a hance to dro it? ) , the cops involved have to feel terrible about this.
And of course, if that’s what he did…..he got what he paid for. If you’re in a public place and waving anything even remotely gun like these days you’re asking for it. Shouldn’t be that way but, it is.
On another note, I see a potential battle of the PC titans shaping up, with the PC anti-gun wing supporting the cops and the “civil-rights” community organizer wing supporting the deceased. Wonder how THAT will play out.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Or stupid hurts, take your pick.
No mention of the bystander the police killed?
the bystander died of a medical emergency while fleeing. she was not shot.
Perhaps she was fleeing because one or more of the officers ordered her to flee, thereby inducing panic without adequate facts. Or, perhaps not. IMHO, there’s not enough information available to us to tell yet.
Either way she’s dead and I see no other reason for her to run away. What surprises me is that the cops hit their target. Amazing!
But was the cop pointing his (real) gun at people? That might scare a poor person to death, especially when he started shooting. How many shots were fired?
less than a mile from my house. i visit there frequently. there are no airsoft/BB guns laying out in the open there. he would have had to unbox it.
i would tend to err on the side of the “former marine” 911 caller who followed the guy at a distance narrating what he saw to the dispatcher. if his story can be believed (and the cops did in fact give him the opportunity to drop the gun) then i call it a good shoot, however tragic the result. maybe suicide-by-cop? i’ve already discussed with other local gun guys how i might have handled it. hard to say. hopefully i would have recognized it was a bb gun. maybe not. scary to think about actually.
in the end, the guy was an adult. he can’t claim “i didn’t think it would be a big deal” or “i didn’t think they’d shoot me.” sadly these are the times we live in.
“and the cops did in fact give him the opportunity to drop the gun”
THIS is the part that gives me great pause in a lot of these comments.
HOLDING a gun is not, by itself, a justification for deadly force.
Ability, opportunity AND jeopardy are still in play.
I remember ‘stand-offs’ with armed citizens, even someone actually SHOOTING where we did not use deadly force because they were not shooting at anyone or even pointing the weapon at anyone.
With multiple marksman holding crosshairs on the subject and at least one entry team ready to go in, AND other cops in the street…no one shot the bad guy because “jeopardy” was missing.
I think a lot of folks on ‘both sides’ of this are jumping to conclusions with missing facts…that’s a dangerous path to walk.
Until there is evidence that he met the legal and moral standards for deadly force, I refuse to entertain the notion of “good shoot.” That’s not the same as me calling it “bad shoot.” It’s just me saying…
WE DON’T KNOW at this point in time what happened and if it was justified or not.
SHOPPING WHILE BLACK…SWB. And his criminal history has nothing to do with being shot over a flimsy air gun. If he was a goofy white 22year old would the rush to judgement be there? Whadda’ you think Dirk?
Why would Dirk have a more informed opinion on this than any of the rest of us? Because he’s black?
Let’s stick to what we’ve got and not jump to conclusions about the guy getting smoked because he wasn’t white any sooner than we should assume he got smoked for “pointing” a gun at a cop. There is zero evidence either way.
Don’t fall into that trap, dude. In the exceedingly unlikely chance this guy’s death was racially motivated, we’ll not only cross that bridge but I’ll be screaming louder than most about it. In the meantime the suggestion does a disservice to all of us.
Golly I sure don’t want to do a disservice to you. Maybe Dirk could offer up the experience of being pre-judged because he is black. Or I could ask my beautiful black wife of 25 years. Or my 2 large caramel colored sons who look fairly black. I recant NOTHING of what I stated DUUUUUDE…
Did you teach your children to be victims? Your automatic assumption of victimization is a little strange given that you married a black woman and had children. If it was no concern of yours, why you you assume or teach anyone else to be concerned about it without evidence in/of the affirmative?
While it is nowhere NEAR the same situation, I grew up in a place where being white was the minority and I paid for it physically. I blame ignorance for what happened then and don’t assume prejudicial treatment for anything now.
I don’t give a shit about the color of your kids or your wife, I’m saying don’t douche the cops for being racist when the only thing that could POSSIBLY support that theory is the fact that there is a dead black man. You have a photo of the cop that pulled the trigger? What the f*ck is wrong with you that you assume that because I said don’t throw the flag out until needed means I would excuse bad behavior? Again, if this was a racially motivated shoot, I might scream louder than you…
I have been stopped SWB. I have been stopped by po-po while DWB. Shit happens. I am also not a criminal and usually police figure it out after 20 seconds that they stopped the wrong guy. I don’t know enough about this case yet.
Is anybody else getting real tired of no attribution from posters? I’ve kinda gotten used to recognizing posters and following comments, and above is what, 7-8 with no name?
In all fairness, it doesn’t really look like a flimsy air gun…
From the pictures I’ve seen the MK-177 looks significantly more like a “real” rifle than the Pumpmaster 760. Hopefully we get to see the video, all the “evidence” we have at this point is a series of statements from invested parties.
The eye witnesses stated he waved the gun around and acted like he was going to shot them. He did the same to cops, and refused to put the gun down. There is video of it and the witnesses talking about what they saw. He was shot after he refused to put the gun down on the third or fourth
You have a link to that video?
“He was shot after he refused to put the gun down on the third or fourth”
HOLDING a gun, or refusing to put one down, is NOT justification for deadly force.
The key piece we are ALL missing (and if you have it, please share it) is “was there a specific action” that provided jeopardy to the cops AT THAT TIME?
Combined with waving the gun around and having pointed it at people, you are mistaken to think it cannot be justification for deadly force. Maybe not justified in YOUR mind, but certainly in the mind of courts.
Go get a friend and a couple of paintball guns. Have him hold the gun, not aiming at you. See how long it takes him to go from “holding” the gun to shooting you. See if you can land two on his center mass in the time between ‘holding’ and ‘shooting’.
You’ll figure out why when the police tell you to drop the gun, you better do it.
We should keep in mind that it was a pellet gun. Any and all police officers should be familiar with the obvious differences between BB, pellet, or paint ball guns and powder-charged weapons. I often have kids come on my land while shooting squirrels and birds with Crossman pellet guns. I confront them and ask them to leave my property because of the liability issues involved if they get hurt while on my land. I’ve been flagged by these kids more than once, even had one fellow throw his pellet gun up to his shoulder and aim in my general direction when I spoke to him from behind a tree. Had I shot him, I’d be in prison today. We still don’t know the details of this shooting, we need to contact the police department there and demand the Walmart security video be made public.
Ok, this headline and story lay out two stories. An air rifle and a toy gun are two very different things.
The headline, nothing… Every article I read on this fails to make the distinction between one and the other. It’s maddening.
There are both a AR and FN SCAR variants of the MK-177. They’re not toys and are not kept in the toy section. They are air rifles and quite effective for vermin control – they’ll take done raccoon. Further, there is nothing to indicate they are air guns rather than the full powered firearm. There is no orange tip like on an air soft gun.
I’ve been considering getting the AR version myself so I can both practice in the basement cheaply and keep the squirrels out of my tomatoes and apple tree.
I feel for his family, but like I teach even my Cub Scouts, air guns are real guns and you follow the same rules as a firearm. He failed 3 of those 4 rules – presuming it wasn’t loaded. Add in that you explain to the cops it’s a “toy” after you put it down and step away – not before. Especially when you know their guns ARE real.
This is starting to look more like a Darwin Award than a bad shoot.
A local Walmart has the sporting goods section next to the toy section. The air rifles are in the first aisle so there is a matter of a few feet between toy guns and air rifles. Airsoft guns are right next to the air guns and BB guns. They are all in the same aisle. There’s no clear delineation between toys and the air/airsoft/BB guns at the particular Walmart to which I am referring. I have no idea as to the layout in that particular Walmart in Beavercreek.
This is my local Walmart. Those sections are separated by a couple of hundred feet. The airsoft/BB section is grouped in with the actual firearms in the sporting goods area of the store. Paint, home improvement and automotive are all in between sporting goods and toys. No chance for confusion.
Thanks for the information. Are the air rifles at that location secured at or are they just in packaging on the shelf? I have seen a few out of the box and floating around the toy section at a local Walmart before.
“No chance for confusion.”
You underestimate the ability to confuse a human being.
@ john in ohio
they are in boxes on a shelf. not locked up or anything, but not unpackaged, either.
@Chris: Thanks again. When I made the initial post, I remembered someone posted that they lived near that Walmart and was hoping that you would post with first hand information. As to out of the box… I meant that people sometimes take them out and either lay them on the shelf or leave them in other aisles. It doesn’t happen often but I have seen that before in Ohio Walmarts. (Of course, not only with air rifles but most any other unsecured product.)
From the way you testify here I assume you have seen the video, as how else do you know exactly what he did or did not do? Please post the link so the rest of us can see it.
I don’t need the video to opine on the guns, I’m familiar with both, having handled and fired them. Both are very good guns. In fact I’m thinking of getting the M4-177 for my son’s birthday. They are both accurate replicas and if you are not close enough to see the Crosman logo embossed, recognize the Crosman bolt or see the forarm down for pumping, there is nothing to give a clue they are not firearms. BTW, the reports have settled on the MK-177, the FN version. That it was this gun is the one thing nobody is questioning.
I, too, would like to see the video. Whether this is a bad shoot or a Darwin Award – as I put it earlier – really resets on that, in my opinion.
This might turn out to be a situation brought on, in part, by inadequate firearm training while growing up. Perhaps he didn’t know anything substantial about firearm rules. The inherent dangers of a muzzle sweep or even pointing anything even resembling a real firearm at someone else might not have even occurred to him. I encourage all parents to learn at least basic firearm rules and drill those rules into their child’s understanding early in life.
If you point a rifle at me or my family and I might just drop you before checking if it is an air rifle or not.
I OC in Wal-Mart all the time. If I saw someone with a realistic looking rifle pointing it at people acting threatening; I would probably draw my own weapon and tell the person to put down the rifle and to get on the ground until the cops showed up.
If the person then pointed the rifle at me; before this story; I would have shot the person. Now; unless I had heard a shot prior to the confrontation, I would duck down out of sight behind cover and wait to find out if this was a real gun or an air rifle/toy gun.
If you are not a cop, you might just go to prison for it, too!
Why is the person who called 911 who created this mess not charged with murder, his or her call resulted in the murder of a innocent man?
Because it’s still being investigated. We can talk crap about whether or not an investigation can be objective when the “thin blue line” is doing the investigating but that’s another article in and of itself. Guilt can’t be laid at the feet of ANY party at this point and if it ever is, it needs to be done in a court of law.
The video will be the critical piece to this puzzle, however. Don’t hold your breath for it.
Even if it is eventually ruled a murder, which is unlikely, his call did not cause it, his call was to request law enforcement, not a contract hit. Law enforcement is supposed to act rationally, that is what the caller had a right to expect.
The “he was only shot because he’s black” story doesn’t add up to me. Let’s say he was only checking out an air rifle to buy. Why would anyone call 911 unless he was acting unusual and/or pointing it at someone? I wouldn’t think twice before I held and aimed the gun to check its feel but it would be aimed at the ceiling away from any person in the area. That’s a no brainer. Then I don’t believe he would carry the gun to another department because you would have to buy one that’s in a box! You going to carry a display model? I’m not absolutely convinced that the police acted appropriately but I don’t buy his family’s story either.
And his family, as far as I can determine, were not there, making their immediate story not just a little suspicious.
Of course, a store like Wal-Mart has cameras everywhere (to prevent theft). It should be easy enough to get close to the real story of what happened here by looking at the footage. Was the man walking around the store “pointing the gun at people” or not? Was the witness embellishing the story or not? How did the man respond to the police warnings to put the gun down (if indeed they did warn him). The tale of the (video) tape will help with some of these answers.
I just viewed the video interview of the guy who called 911. He seemed quite credible. He reported a man with a gun that looked like an AR15 — which Crossman makes. The witness says that the man was pointing the gun at people and that the cops did order the man to drop it. He also stated that the cops did not shoot until the man turned toward them with the gun in his hands.
If all these statements are true — if — then this unfortunate incident was a good shoot.
Was he talking on his cell phone at the time? If you haven’t noticed, many people today tune everything out when talking on their phones; driving, walking, responding to impolite people shouting from behind them … I want the video. The cell phone his GF claims he had pressed to his ear would make a HUGE difference to me. And should have to a cop, especially one shouting at him from behind, and how else could he have “turned toward the cop” with the gun/phone in his hand? And how many shots were fired?
The local Indiana WalMart resembles nothing more than a filthy flea market. It takes forever if you want to buy ammo. The airsoft are strewn about and the “real guns” like the one in the article are generally out in the open. Nobody’s minding the store. Good shoot? Beats me but I know homie didn’t need to die.
I took a look at a look at all pellet rifles and bb guns in wal mart, you know, they did not have one, that I could not recognize as a pellet or bb gun. Had these officers actually looked, they should have also
I’ve been around guns for over 50 years. If somebody pointed the Crossman AR at me, I would shoot. Go to the Crossman web site and look for yourself.
There are other rifles beside ARs. An air gun is a gun…not a toy. What if a guy was pointing a pink .22 Crickett? Looks like a toy right?
From what I have seen so far, this guy was being irresponsible and it cost him his life. Right or wrong is yet to be fully understood but definately unfortunate for everyone, cops, Mr. Crawford, the woman who died and the survivors.
I’ll let you in on a dirty little secret: most cops ARE NOT gun people. The gun is just part of the job and they’re not better trained or better shots than the vast majority of the people you run into at the range.
That isn’t their fault, at all. It’s a systemic problem with the “law enforcement” mindset of the last two decades. The assumption that the average cop knows f*ckall about firearms aside from his/her carry piece (and even that is questionably in a lot of cases) is false. I could share stories, and I’d guess a few of the officers here on TTAG could as well. Police officers are people, the same as you and I. The mindset that they are superheroes is dangerous.
Cops and everyone should treat BB guns with the same respect as rim fire or center fire rifles before this happens again: http://www.wave3.com/story/12140277/11-year-old-dies-after-being-shot-with-bb-rifle
This happened because there were no dogs available for the cops to shoot. Yeah, I know, bad humor. There are closed circuit security cameras pointed at every isle within all Walmarts. The tape should be made available to the public, or at the least, to the jury that should sit at trial over these cops.
All this “comply or I will shoot” is making me paranoid. I am deaf from childhood illness, 53 now. If the 5-O is behind me or if its dark and in front of me (I hafta read lips!) and command me to comply or I (we?) will shoot! I am SOL.
I’ve had similar concerns for my oldest son. He’s been practically deaf in one ear since childhood. If he were approached on that side, he wouldn’t hear the instruction.
I’d make a wager that no clear video is available. I cannot imagine why this boy would aim the gun at anyone. Always a sad loss of a young life. Not saying it didn’t happen.
I hope there is clear video of this incident, and the police are exonerated or, whoever fired needs to goes to prison.
I know this store and shop there regularly. I also have met several Beavercreek Police Officers. They all were very nice and professional. The area the store is in is a good area by Wright Patt AFB and Wright State University. So it is somewhat racially mixed with a younger crowd of servicemen and students. I find the area safe and the people friendly. That said I am surprised this occurred there the way it did. Those officers had to have had a good reason to fire.
There is no good reason for shooting someone holding a pellet gun. If the officers were frightened for their own welfare then they should have done as we are required to do in most states, retreat. I conceal carry and have had times in where I was concerned over others brandishing a weapon, not a pellet gun, but loaded hand guns, however, I have not shot anyone. I see way too many gung-ho, “I’m gonna shoot your ass” cops at the firing range. They get so psyched up while target practicing and wearing a full kit that would be overdoing it even in Iraq,, and I believe they feel limited in their aggression because they can’t shoot someone. Every armed person, whether citizen or cop, needs some serious anger management training. Many cops need to reconsider their line of work if they are so afraid for their personal safety that they shoot anyone who does not immediately “comply” to their whims/commands. I know some good cops, and I also know some arrogant cops who are just thugs with badges. Cops need to be careful, there are some men out here who will not forgive them for shooting a family member who is armed with only a pellet gun. Everyone is touchable.
“There is no good reason for shooting someone holding a pellet gun.”
You need to get shot a couple of times with a .177 and maybe you’ll stop being so ignorant.
If you want to call me or anyone else ignorant on here, you should be ready to explain why you are ignorant enough to resort to using derogatory and degrading terms toward us. I’m very familiar with .77 and .22 caliber pellet guns. I’ve owned and shot them since I was a kid, many times. We used to have pellet gun wars and I know what it feels like to be hit by a .177 pellet, yes, they can be lethal if the pellet enters through you eyes or ears, and at the least, you will bleed pretty badly, but we survived by wearing motorcycle helmets and leather jackets. I currently own a Mendoza RM 1000 5.5 mm pellet gun, I and my workers use it to shoot rats in my banana and papaya orchards my wife and I own on the shores of Lake Chapala, Mexico. I’m a good old country boy raised up in the woods and swamps of Louisiana, but this good old boy is not ignorant enough to publicly call others ignorant.
I grew up in Beavercreek and I am in disbelief. That said, there is plenty of racism in the community.
Did they shoot him all the way from the produce aisle?
or just a case of the “BANG . . . Freeze!”
. . . crickets
Back in the Day, Overt racism was the rule. Now covert racism is rampant. How? Simply by differential treatment of citizens by law enforcement simply by the way someone looks. An let’s be real MDA is a false flag op funded by the power brokers who want to divide our citizens along D or R, Black and White lines.
I think I may have been in this Wal-Mart. I am glad I did not play with any of the toy or air guns in the aisles. It is fairly close to WPAFB. Actually, it is in a nice area.
It could be a good shoot, it could be a bad shoot. From what I’ve read so far, it looks like a series of asinine decisions by the Wal-Mart shopper, but have also been an over reaction bu the police. As long as a good investigation is performed, I’m fine with that.
I’m pretty familiar with the Crosman line of air guns. If someone points an air rifle that may be a firearm at me, I’m probably going to shoot – on duty or off.
Exactly. The gun was either a MK-177 or M4-177, depending on what I’ve read. One is a very accurate copy if an FN one is an accurate AR platform gun. If you weren’t familiar with the gun already, you won’t tell them apart from the originals.
Every report I’ve seen has him muzzle sweeping people, too. If this guy was dropped by someone carrying concealed, everyone would be calling for a Darwin Award for this guy.
Forget the man’s run-in’s with the criminal justice system for a moment. This incident is a direct result of the anti-gun hysteria whipped up by Liberals. The 911 caller did just as Mike Malloy, a prominent Libturd radio personality, suggested “on-air” during one of anti-gun diatribes, they called 911 and exaggerated the incident to provoke a violent confrontation which has resulted in two deaths. Gun owners beware: Yesterday it was a BB-gun in Walmart, tomorrow it’ll be law-abiding Open and CCW carriers who’ll be targeted for death by police at the behest of firearm illiterate, hysterical members of society.
The real problem here seems to be cops. By here I mean everywhere. Too many boot-lickers making excuses for them. It’s never one bad apple. If it were, why aren’t the good apples arresting the bad ones?
How were the cops supposed to know it was an air rifle. I don’t think the anti-gun culture killed him, he got himself killed by waving a gun around and pointing it at people.
Plus to make this a race issue is retarded.
This has got to be one of the most misleading article titles ever used in the never-ending series of cop-bashing articles on TTAG.
A new record! Congratulations.
not sure if this related news article has been already posted or not… http://www.whio.com/news/news/local/beavercreek-walmart-shooting-case-it-happened/ngxw7/
IMHO, that’s good journalism; long on facts and short on bias/emotion/conclusion. It covers a lot, including the empty box in sporting goods. Good link!
I found this to be a very interesting comment on the story, http://www.whio.com/news/news/local/beavercreek-walmart-shooting-case-it-happened/ngxw7/#/comment/p1/c2393361/
I wonder how much of that is true and can be substantiated.
Thanks, John. The witness accounts in that article are very revealing. I’ll be keeping an eye out for the Walmart surveillance video… that is if we ever get to see it.
Not mentioned here is that a caller reported shots fired. Is the narrative changing? Did an anti-gun activist make a false call that resulted in the deaths of two people? Time may tell.
Just speculating here… It wouldn’t be the first time that multiple LEOS made conflicting and confusing demands. “Drop the gun,” Freeze,” “Don’t move, “Get on the ground,” “Hands up.” Complying with one command, or none, will get you shot by an LEO shouting a conflicting demand.
I thought I read on another site he was shopping with his kids. Was he shot while standing with his kids? Was he maybe ‘playing’ with his kids, not pointing the gun at other people’s kids?
Alan, you just brought up a very important point that I had never considered. Two or more cops, yelling two or commands, and both or all of them expecting you to OBEY only them. Scary scenario, but quite possible.
If you listen to the 911 call as well as the interview the “Marine” gave to the local news station it is clear as day the man lied to incite the kind of response the police made.
The man who called it in, Ronald Richie, forgot what his service rifle looks like (claimed the pellet gun was an AR-15), he stated that John Crawford was loading a magazine fed rifle (despite that rifle’s “magazine” being an integrally molded piece of plastic that looked like a magazine), said he was waving it around and pointing it at people in an Ohio Wal-Mart while shopping with his two tiny children and bring on the phone with the babies mother.
Furthermore a female in the area yelled that they had been shot causing several Wal-Mart employees to run for cover. Turns out Mr. Richie was in Wal-Mart with his wife.
This whole incident is nothing more than a gun grabber following the MDA/CSGV script on how to harass open carriers.
Which article has the 911 call audio in it? I haven’t been able to find it but my slow netbook doesn’t like to play some of the media files so I can’t check each one. I probably have missed it. If I have a specific article link then I can check those limited media files.
Just another DA (Dumb Ass)! Watch yourselves out there and always protect your back side!
(DeWine is the Attorney General for the State of Ohio.)
An attorney for the family of a man fatally shot by police at a Wal-Mart store said Tuesday that surveillance video of the shooting shows it was unjustified, and the state’s top lawman said a special grand jury will begin considering whether charges are appropriate against the officers.
DeWine said that on Sept. 3 a special grand jury will begin considering whether charges against Beavercreek officers would be appropriate.
He said his investigators would work as quickly as possible to within two weeks turn over to the grand jury evidence including more than 200 photos of the shooting scene, interviews of more than 75 witnesses, 911 recordings and video footage from as many as 203 cameras inside the Wal-Mart.
In the news video at that link, Ohio’s Attorney General said, “I think this is the only day since I’ve been Attorney General, umm, I wish I wasn’t Attorney General.” IMHO, it was genuine emotion and he appeared choked up.
How can all the black people yell racism but if it was a black cop they would not do a thing look at how many white me have got killed by a black guy but every one look over that all I have to say is black will never stop using the racism
Here is the store security video of that shooting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9FtNOV6Qhk
From the description of the incident, that is exactly what I imagined happened. They gave him zero chance to digest the order to drop the gun before opening fire. He thought he was being murdered because he crawls around the shelf but sees the other man (I don’t think he realized it was police) and after being shot twice still gets on his feet to run away. The asshole that called 911 said he ran toward the police but he was actually running from the cop dressed in dark clothing and he was cornered by the one in shorts and white shirt.
Walmart is liable for having an open gun lying on the shelf.
The caller is liable for “swatting”.
The police are liable and criminal for shooting and killing a man that was simply standing still holding a rifle.
For the most part, I agree (except the Walmart liability statement). The Grand Jury failed to indict the officers. There are protests planned and more brewing here in Ohio. Some individuals from Ferguson were at the courthouse while the jury was in session. It was reported that they were here to advise and comfort those protesting the Beavercreek shooting.