A string of recent comments on some of TTAG’s articles have made it clear there is a lot of misunderstanding out there with regard to how handgun calibers stop threats. Admittedly, it’s a subject steeped in a lot of myths and bad information that was backed by a serious lack of science for many decades. The comments include describing .380 as not much more damaging than a bee sting. Another claimed that because a typical .45 ACP round weighs 230 grains, you have to fire two 9mm rounds weighing 115 grains to stop the same threat.
With that in mind, let’s talk about how handguns actually stop threats. The first thing we have to acknowledge is that stopping power is a myth. A big one, especially in the world of handguns. It’s one of those terms that was never quantifiable and is used to often tout larger calibers as being better and smaller calibers as lacking. Yet no scientific method for measuring or evaluating ‘stopping’ power exists with regard to why a .45 ACP round is better and ending a threat than a 9mm round.
The Minimum Caliber Debate
This leads us to the argument about what the ‘minimum’ defensive caliber is or should be. That often portrays one round as being the minimally acceptable option for defensive use and anything bigger is, by definition, better.
Sometimes that minimum is 9mm. OIther times it’s .380 ACP (sometimes known as “9mm short”). In reality, I think the minimum caliber argument is silly. There are calibers I wouldn’t carry, like .25 ACP, which is admittedly small, but I wouldn’t carry .44 Magnum either. There’s a lot that goes into that other than size.
The .25 ACP round is fairly anemic and doesn’t penetrate very well. The .44 Magnum packs a ton of recoil and muzzle blast, making it tough to get a good follow-up shot quickly on target. Not to mention the size of the gun and concealment concerns. That said, I would carry .22LR with the right ammo and in the right gun. I carry a .32 ACP daily and with the right ammo it can stop a threat just as quickly as a .45 ACP.
The One Thing That Matters Most With Handgun Ballistics
It’s all about penetration. Handguns only have one wounding mechanism, and it’s the wounds caused by what the bullet impacts. There are no secondary wounding effects from standard handguns. Handguns can’t generate a shock that causes other wounds. There is no significant energy dump either. (Yes, ‘handgun’ is a big category, but we are talking typical handguns here, not AR pistols.)
A pistol projectile should be able to penetrate at least 12 inches of 10% ballistic gel that’s properly calibrated. Humans aren’t jelly, but the FBI, who established that standard, found that if a round can penetrate that deep in proper ballistic gel, it can reach the vital organs that, when struck, can stop a threat. Calibers like .380 ACP, .32 ACP, and .22LR can all do that with proper projectile selection.
Stopping a Threat
In self-defense, there are only three ways to stop a threat.
Psychological Stop – The bad guy decides the fight is over. The round doesn’t have to strike something to kill the attacker, but simply being hit changes its mind. You may not even have to pull the trigger. A psych stop can happen as soon as you pull the gun.
Blood Loss – The slow way to stop a threat is to hit something that causes lots of bleeding in your attacker. The body works best when it has all of its blood, and the more of that someone loses, the more likely they are to lose consciousness and eventually assume ambient temperature.
Vital Strike – This is when you hit something vital like the brain, the heart, or maybe the lungs a few times. That is the quickest way to stop a threat.
A .45 to the brain is no different than a .22LR to the brain. (Also, contrary to lots of online lore, a .22LR round doesn’t “bounce around” causing additional wounding effects any more than any other round does.) The same goes for heart, lungs, etc. The size of the projectile doesn’t matter as much as the projectile’s ability to get there. If the projectile can get there, it doesn’t matter much how big it is. What matters more is the shooter’s ability to place rounds where they will be most effective.
Why Don’t We All Just Carry .32 ACP Then?
Because it’s expensive. It can have rim lock issues, too. The real question is, why is 9mm the round gun owners and the industry have seemed to settle on? Obviously, it works well as a cartridge. It’s also incredibly common and is also the NATO standard. The 9mm round has always been affordable, easy to find, and allows for relatively high capacities in handguns. In hollow point options, it’s quite impressive and very capable.
For the duty world, 9mm does pretty well getting through soft cover and thin barriers. Glass, car doors, light wood, heavy clothing, etc., aren’t typically worries for the average concealed carrier, but for cops and soldiers, it matters. The main reason why we use 9mm over other rounds is because it’s a great jack-of-all-trades.
What advantage do rounds like the .40 S&W, .357 SIG, and 10mm offer over 9mm or other calibers like the .380 ACP? They definitely handle barriers better. They tend to penetrate deeper, but when does that extra penetration matter? If 9mm can reach vitals, why would a round need to go deeper?
In the 1986 Miami Shootout, which was the catalyst for the FBI’s adoption of 10mm, a 9mm round stopped an inch from the heart of one of the criminals. Defensive 9mm ammunition in the mid-80s wasn’t nearly as capable as it is now, and the round initially went through the bad guy’s arm, which gave it more meat to contend with. The .40 S&W, .357 SIG, and 10mm’s deeper penetration can be beneficial in those odd-angled shooting scenarios.
The key word is ‘can’ and not ‘will.’ It’s never guaranteed and too many variables exist to say it will always work.
What About Expansion?
If you have a round that can penetrate deeply enough into an attacker, then the next step is to choose the right defensive projectile. For the vast majority of rounds, a jacketed hollow point bullet is the way to go. A JHP gives us expansion and expansion is nice.
A bigger hole is a bigger hole. If all handguns can do is damage tissue as they travel through it, then the larger expanded projectile is better than one that expands less or not at all.
Does expansion make enough of a difference to stop a threat if the shot isn’t placed in an area that matters? No, not really but it might make a threat bleed out faster.
Another real benefit of JHP ammunition is the fact it doesn’t tend to over-penetrate and zip through a target. Bullets that go through an attacker and out the other side can easily harm another person who isn’t an attacker. With that said, there are certain hollow point projectiles that are gimmicks. With all of that in mind, yourn job is to choose the right hollow point.
Hollow point ammunition can be detrimental in some calibers and cartridges in specific guns. My beloved .32 ACP sucks with JHPs. JHPs in .32 ACP expand too early, and that causes the round to slow down too fast, preventing adequate penetration. It might work better from a longer barrel, but longer-barreled .32 ACPs aren’t very common. The same goes for .22LR in pocket pistols. You want an FMJ to reach adequate penetration.
Bigger Bullets and Bigger Threats
Keep in mind we’re talking entirely about human-based threats here. If you have to fend off bears, well, I’d then carry a .44 Magnum or a 10mm with some hard cast lead rounds.
Bears tend to be bigger, thicker, and more difficult to penetrate than anything the FBI contemplated when it created that gel block testing standard.
To recap, for defensive use, size doesn’t matter as much as penetration and shot placement. There is no (or not much) such thing as stopping power, hydrostatic shock, or energy dumps with handgun rounds.
No, you don’t have to shoot someone twice with a 9mm because the bullet weighs half as much as one in .45 ACP. A .380 ACP to a vital organ can stop a threat just as successfully as a 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP, etc. Expansion is nice, but size never tops shot placement or penetration.
If it can penetrate adequately and you can shoot it straight, then carry it with confidence.
First…a gun of any caliber is better than no gun at all
Next…whatever caliber you choose…practice,practice,practice…shots on target with any caliber are better than misses with a larger caliber
Next…like real estate…location,location,location… shot placement is very important
Carry something you can shoot well and accurately if/when you need to.
Load with modern defense ammo, of course.
Finally…more practice, practice, practice!
I think the best advice I have been given about what caliber to use for defense is this:
Carry a gun with the biggest caliber you can accurately put on target,
A 22LR to the chest is more effective than a 45 in the door frame.
Wow, I am without words…
MADD, that is a FIRST!
I’m not. The first word that came to mind is BLOVIATING. and windbaggery
Guy does love him some FBI. “but the FBI, who established” – I assume this is the FBI of 38Spl popguns, then 9mm, then 10mm “Miami shootout” (quickly then .40 as the girlcops couldn’t handle 10mm). I think now is the Gluck 9mm. Enough in that alone to demonstrate the entire organization is incompetent (or corrupt).
9mm NATO -being the eurowussie mil standard. Adopted in euroland just because. In the US/FBI because the girlcops could (mostly) handle it. And the (circa 1985) “booolets are gettin better and better doncha know”.
Who you calling a girl?
She’s good!
It is interesting to me how this subject comes up, lays dormant for a while and, then, comes up again when the discussion is always the same. My thoughts:
Big bullets make big holes, smaller bullets make smaller holes.
Expanding bullets of a given size make bigger holes than non-expanding bullets of the same size.
Some rounds have more recoil than others, not necessarily only dependent upon size, pressure matters too. (As does mass, of the bullet and the firearm.)
Fast bullets can tear up things in different ways than slow bullets.
Carry the biggest, most powerful round you can effectively tote around and put those rounds on target because placement matters, a lot.
Over penetration is a thing, consider it.
Firearm capacity is a thing, consider it.
Accuracy is a thing, consider it.
Familiarity with your firearm is a thing, consider it.
Training, and skill, are things, consider them.
Ok, go dormant for a while again.
Well thought out, obviously used a lot of critical thinking, no name calling or derision towards situational choices at individual level. You do realize that this was a online caliber war article right? Joking aside only missed out on cost availability and ease of self manufacture of components as factors to consider.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if3e7ApfuOk
Q.E.D.
I take it the OP is not a fan of Underwood Extreme Defender/Xtreme Hunter ammo. These are my go-to’s after exhaustive research for a few different reasons.
How many times has anybody shot through person A and hit person B? Except on the battlefield.
I can only think of one case. A man tried to kill himself while his preacher and wife tried to talk him down. Man shot himself in the chest and the bullet went through and hit the wife. But that is the only case I know of.
Didn’t Alec Baldwin hit two people with one bullet?
Gadzooks. You are correct. That is two events.
In general, I don’t usually try to involve Alec Baldwin in making a valid point but, in this case, it seemed salient.
(At least he is serving as an example of what *not* to do.)
+1 for the use of “gadzooks”.
+1 from me as well for use of “gadzooks”!
Highly unlikely that .45 Colt was loaded with expanding ammunition. Most likely a slow moving 250gr. lead round nose slug. Slow + heavy = deep penetration.
Similar to the Kennedy bullet.
Kennedy Connolly. Granted, that was a rifle but still…
I remember when that happened. But I’d forgotten about Connolly.
AB and jwm -yes that was a rifle bullet but don’t ‘forget’ it was a ‘magic’ one according to the warren fiasco er um totally factual ‘investigation’.
Research NYPD. They used 9mm FMJ for many years. My understanding is they finally went to JHP after many officers and bystander kept getting hit by bullets passing thru the bad guys being shot.
I spent most of my youth seeking penetration.
Penetration is good, over-penetration can cause unintended harm. Know your target …
Under penetration may piss someone off.
I’ve said here before, bigger, deeper holes
Another thought. I carry Speer Gold Dot in my defensive handguns. It’s bonded core bullet. When I was invited to test it with a couple of factory reps it averaged about 14″ of penetration with near 100 percent weight retention. It also expanded appropriately 60 percent. That’s hard to beat. That was across the board for all service calibers.
Lol, gold dots for handloads “out of stock no back order”
X, I stopped handloading years ago. Around the time premium bullets became available in factory loads. Some enjoy tweaking their loads. Not me. Life is too short. Besides, I never carried handloads in my defensive handguns or rifles. Even though I never had a misfire with my home rolled ammo.
“Even though I never had a misfire with my home rolled ammo.”
Nor have I. Not component-related, anyway.
I buy plinker and reload the brass for cheap “premium”. XTP over Gold Dots, tho. Just due to the availability issues.
Don’t know why l enjoy it, but usually do.
You’ve heard the one about the old reloader that is proud of the fact that he still has all 10 fingers, but loses count a couple of times when he tries to prove it?
In the book “The Inglis Diamond” it states that in 1945 the U.S. Military finally got around to testing the .45 acp and were shocked when they saw it bounce off a military helmet at a scant 35 yards while the 9×19 penetrated the helmet at an astonishing 125 yards and might have been able to do it even further away but no one that day could hit the helmet beyond 125 yards.
The German Military chose the .32 acp over the .380 because the .32 acp would penetrate a military helmet and the 380 bounced off.
Pistolero Magazine in the 1980’s went to Mexico to get around animal cruelty laws and shot barn hard pigs at point blank range and found zero killing power difference between the .38 special, .357 mag., 9×19 and .45 acp. Pistolero said the pigs jumped higher and squealed louder when hit with the 9×19 compared to the .45 acp.
In 1900 Agnes Herbert perhaps the greatest of women hunters who hunted on 3 continents and shot more big game than 1000 hunters do today said her 6.5 Mannlicher killed dangerous big game just as dead as her .450 double rifle.
WDM Bell shot over 1,000 elephants with the 6.5 mannlicher and 7×57 rifles and he did not get stomped into the ground because of using these rifles because they worked and worked well.
The great Satan President Reagan and two of his entourage were all blown off their feet with the lowly .22 rimfire.
Locally a man was jumped when he came out of a local bar and blew alway 3 thugs with one shot apeace using the .25 acp.
Bill Judd and his son were attacked by a bull elephant and shot it 6 times with the .577 Nitro express to kill it. Bill was stomped into the ground before the big bull expired.
The .45 acp does not knock people down, or spin them around or make them disappear in a red puff of mist.
And Elmer Keith (as usual) was a damned liar when he said that the .270 Winchester bounced off a mountain goat.
Jan Libourel the retired gun writer during his research stated he found zero Military records indicating that during the Philippine Insurrection that the .45 acp worked any better than the .38 colt or .45 long colt.
Col. Thompson during his famous Chicago Stock Yard slaughter of 1,200 lb steers found that the .30 Luger and 9×19 killed the steers just as dead as the .44 and .45 cal revolvers he used in the tests even when he restored to blatant cheating and tried expanding bullets in the .44 and .45 calibers. Thompson then concealed these results when he lied to the Ordinance board that a .45 cal auto pistol cartridge would be the ultimate military man stopper. These facts were revealed in an outstanding article called “Shooting Holes in the Stopping Power Theory” which appeared in the Gun Digest annual a number of years ago.
And “yours truly” shot a big whitetail deer that before dressing topped 180 lbs. I used the 9×19 with the 125 grain Remington bullet with 4 grains of bullseye powder that “was not a bonded bullet” and the deer died with only one shot.
dacian, the DUNDERHEAD So what is you point?
I sincerely doubt you downed a deer with a 9mm. I don’t think you know which end of the gun the bullet exists. You don’t even know the firing sequence of a cartridge.
to Walter the Beverly Hillbilly. Even a 3rd grader has enough reading comprehension to understand the points I was making.
Once again a (fill in the blank) confuses/conflates lethality and stopping power in a conversation about stopping power.
And defames Col. Thompson in the process.
What was that tiny noise. Did a mouse fart?
And “yours truly” shot a big whitetail deer that before dressing topped 180 lbs. I used the 9×19 with the 125 grain Remington bullet with 4 grains of bullseye powder
Bullshit…
Considering he lives in Ohio either he’s lying, most likely, it is dacian after all. Or he’s admitting to breaking the law. 9mm ain’t kosher for deer in Ohio.
But it’s dacian. So the safe assumption is he’s lying.
To Madman
Next you will be telling us the Socialist Russians never used guns to beat the German Far Right Nazi’s. We Socialists surprise , surprise are armed to the teeth. LMAO
Russians yes, you personally doubtful on several issues but do go review some 80-90’s guns and ammo magazines for story inspiration.
dacian, the DUNDERHEAD, I doubt you could hit the broadside of a red barn if you were standing next to it with a 12 ga shotgun.
Aside from that you still can’t tell us the firing sequece of a cartridge. Doubtful of you could figure out which end of the gun the bullet comes out.
Assuming you are addressing me… What the fuck does the Russians fighting the Nazis have to do with your bullshit story about taking a deer with one shot from a fucking 9mm… I was born, just not last week… Fucking moron to think anyone would buy that line of bullshit unless the deer was tied up and you were standing right next it…
dacian, the DUNDERHEAD, I doubt you could hit the broadside of a red barn
Dumbassian couldn’t hit the barn from the inside…
I’m trying to find the link, but I read a news story about a guy from Albuquerque who was shot with a .44 magnum and it literally blew his arm off. It was a close shot, to be sure, within three feet, but his arm was dangling by tendons. I will post the link if I find it.
Yes, .44 magnum can be carried, if you’re 6’3″ and weigh 220 pounds. Carried quite easily, actually, in a pancake holster or a shoulder rig. Follow-up shots?? Sure. For the same reasons, and continual grip exercise. Is it too much?? That, dear friends, is in the eye of the beholder, but I find it quite comforting.
As for stopping power, it may be a myth, but a 9mm won’t blow a guy’s arm off. So I’d rather have access to the power of the .44 magnum.
9mm for the win, it’s the official “lung blower-outer”, at least that’s what I was told by some old dude who owns a double barrel shotgun.
But, but, but – wasn’t it Brandon who said the 9mm can blow the lungs clean out? https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-says-9mm-bullet-blows-lung-out-body-1711551 Maybe he meant 90mm?
9mm doesn’t blow the lungs out … 9mm just blows.
Must be the dreaded .9mm!
I will stick with 9mm most of the time, at least for now. I have no need to disassemble the bad guy to his component parts and the 9 should do.
That said, a .22 conversion unit in the stainless .45 on my hip the one time I had a defensive gun use would have done the job since they saw my gun and lost interest after I took off my jacket making it plain I was well armed. No rounds fired, I didn’t even touch my pistol.
“That said, a .22 conversion unit in the stainless .45 on my hip the one time I had a defensive gun use would have done the job since they saw my gun and lost interest after I took off my jacket making it plain I was well armed.”
Word.
I have drawn twice in my life. Both times, the person advancing rapidly towards me saw me in the act of drawing, immediately stopped, and got the hell out of there, *fast*.
It was the ideal outcome, both times…
Exactly why I carry the G29, one to the chest and one to the head (just for grins, not really necessary) WILL “penetrate” and fuck up a bad guys day… Thank you girlyman Eff Bee Eye…
Good for you. I’m not within a foot of your height and 50lbs of mass. I’ll stick with,and regularly practice with what works for me. Merry Christmas.
An entire article on defensive handgun calibers and not even a mention of the.357 magnum, the one defensive handgun caliber to rule them all. 🙄
When you care enough to send the very best …
👍
Ruger LCR in .357 for me, with the Ruger red laser on it.
I hope beyond hope I never need to use it.
It was a Taurus 6-shot .357 in my second defensive gun use, a Gluck 23 in.40 S&W for my first…
Also, in the unlikely case I was involved in a defensive shooting, I’d like to leave an exit wound on a squared away frontal shot. Exit wounds bleed a lot and if the bullet has enough penetration to exit then it will have enough penetration to reach the vitals from an odd angle.
So true. And what’s the main difference with 380, 38, 357? Speed. Speed kills! It’s why 44 mag is better than 44 special. It’s why 223 is better than 22mag, and any object you hit proves that faster “hard” or expanded bullets cause a bigger shock wave than slower ones.
Velocity good/essential for HP to expand properly. Beyond that and handgun can quickly get to “how many angels” discussion.
“ALL handguns are the tool intended to allow you time to get to your long gun.” The truest words every spoken by somebody.
Clint Smith regularly says “Your handgun is what you use to fight your way back to your rifle that you should not have set down”.
True words. Get your rifle out of the closet. Now.
allow you time to get to your long gun.”
Long gun is not very practical on a motorcycle and when you find yourself alone on a dark country highway with some fucking hater trying to run you off the road you better have more than a pissy sub-compact 9mm or a .380…10mm CAN kill a car AND the dumbass driving it… Why I keep a mag full of 220 grain hard cast lead at the ready…
“Moderated”? Of course it is…
The forerunner of the NIST, the U.S. Army, and a police association in the early 70s performed extensive tests on cadavers, dead animals, and gel blocks. They largely determined that the defining metric associated with “incapacitation” was the peak power of energy dissipation (ft–lbs per second, or watts). Generally, this equates to larger bullets, faster bullets, and bullets that expand more, or any combination of two or three.
But I don’t think we can let any of that “sciency stuff” get in the way of people having opinions on this subject and being bold about expressing their opinions. Self esteem matters, so… go ahead and begin your posts with “Don’t worry ma’am; I’m from the Internet.”
That’s an old myth. What stops bad guys is shots to the vitals. shots to the vitals don’t care about the size of the bullet.
You don’t have any idea what you’re talking other than you have an opinion and excess self esteem. Also, you forgot to begin your post with “I’m from the Internet so I know everything.”
I was a federally licensed ammunition manufacturer back then and read the report (likely before you were born). The investigation was part of the U.S. Army’s program that lead to issuing a new specification for a handgun and which eventually lead to the adoption of the Beretta 92.
Good for you, but you understand that our ability to capture information evolves. Testing calibers on cadavers doesn’t represent a living human, and we’ve seen through decades of information that a bigger bullet doesn’t matter as long as it can reach the necessary vitals to shut a bad guy off.
Greg Ellifritz captured tons of data relating to firearm stops and in his own research and work the average number of 45 ACP rounds it took to incapacitate a person was 2.08. The average for 40 S&W was 2.38. 9mm equaled out to 2.45.
The average for 38 SPC was 1.87 rounds .380 ACP? 1.76. The average for .32? 1.52. What about 22? 1.38
where the shot goes matters way more than the size of the bullet
Umm…Travis has written for TTAG many times. 1st time here huh Greg ?!?
No.
Relevance of frequency? Joey Obiden yaps on the TV daily and is dumber each time.
“shots to the vitals don’t care about the size of the bullet”
But they must. After all, the bigger the wound channel the more likely it is to hit the vitals. A wound channel that just barely misses the descending aorta does little damage. A wound channel that just barely hits the descending aorta does a lot of damage. The same goes for the central nervous system, perhaps even more so. And since bullets don’t make holes, they make tunnels, the surface area of those tunnels are what is important. That’s why a .22 over 12″ is nowhere near the surface area of a .45 over 12″.
To Taylor
Now you are implying that the difference of a scant 1/10 of an inch between the 9mm (.35) and the .45 is going to make an earth shattering difference. Reality dictates that the skill of the shooter which on average is much greater due to the 9mm’s lower recoil makes the greater difference in being able to pulverize the heart or other organs. Not to mention that the shooter is way less likely to end up with an empty gun in his hand if there are multiple attackers if he is smart enough to use a high capacity 9mm.
dacian, the DUNDERHEAD, Whether your uneducated posterior beleives it or not, shot placement can the difference between a “flesh wound and a fatal.
Reality DOES NOT dictate the “skill of a shooter”, practice, practice and more pratice dictates the skill of a shooter. Any round (.22 to .45) can do “pulverizing damage” or a body’s organ, but dependent on shot placement, velocity of the round, and bullet mass.
For your further edification, 99.9999% of the time when there are “multiple attackers”, the sight of the handgun or the first shot sends the perps running like dacian the DUNDERHEAD.
Now you are implying that the difference of a scant 1/10 of an inch between the 9mm (.35) and the .45 is going to make an earth shattering difference
Okay big boy, we’ll both put on level III armor YOU shoot 1st, one round 9mm anywhere covered by body armor, I’ll shoot my “little” (one silly mm bigger) 10mm at you and yes I’ll survive your shot, but you will NOT survive mine… And yes, dumbassian there IS an earth (life?) shattering difference between 9mm and .45…
Reality dictates that the skill of the shooter which on average is much greater due to the 9mm’s lower recoil.
Since when did size of the round equate to shooter SKILL? More DUMBASSIAN bullshit…
It appears as if middle school math has escaped some folks. As I said, bullets don’t make holes, they make tunnels.
It’s the entire area of the wound channel that makes a difference. Calculate the difference in the area of a 12″ wound channel (not to mention the volume displaced!) and you’ll find there’s a much bigger difference than .10″ between .355″ and .451″.
Look … you can say people need to practice with and carry the caliber they can handle. That’s all fine. People should be armed for self defense. But don’t sit there and tell me a smaller slower caliber is just as effective as a larger faster caliber. It just isn’t true. No amount of gel testing or shot placement is going to make it true.
I’ve seen a number of videos of people being shot several times with a 9mm and running away. I’ll stick with the info from Evan Marshall’s book on stopping power. This is from real world shootings. The 9mm may be good but author failed to mention one of the bad guys from the Miami shootout was hit 12 times with 9mm JHP and was still shooting FBI and LEO.
bill
You may have read about the Miami shootout but understood none of it. So here it is.
During WWI the Germans found out that the 115 grain 9mm bullet did not give them the penetration they needed so all the German Lugers were recalled after the war and rebuilt with tougher springs so they could handle the new 125 grain service round.
Now you would think the FBI would have been educated enough to be aware of history’s mistakes but they were not. The 115 grain bullet they used had to plow through the bad guys arm and then go through his toro and it stopped just short of his heart. The 125 grain bullet would have easily done the job and since then the FBI switched over to a heavier 9mm bullet.
dacian, the DUNDERHEAD, Like a good little nut case, you seem to think that 10 more grains would have made much of a difference? The FBI has had so many different allusions about firearms that I, like most, have lost count. If you think that bullet mass is so important, why not the 168 gr .40cal S&W? Believe it or not, inspite of some pansies, the .40 cal does not recoil much more than the 9mm.
But then you don’t know the real skinny on firearms. your specialty is to “cut and paste”.
Have you figured out yet the firing sequence of a cartridge yet ?
Great article. I have two things to add.
In the 90’s Evan Marshall wrote a book based on his study of one shot stops in real world shootings. That was when we finally started getting solid data on caliber, load, and how many shots it took from enough actual shootings. Memory is a bit fuzzy, but from .380 to either .45 ACP or .44 Magnum everything was within a standard deviation except for one outlier. .357 Magnum Federal Hydra-Shok was that outlier and I forget how big it’s lead was. Enough to claim victory, but not enough for me to switch to it. I did have a .357, but getting a good follow up shot took longer than I wanted it to.
In, I think, the mid 2000’s with better data and more research, someone I can’t remember determined that the other calibers were affected by a data artefact. With .357 recoil was such that by the time a person got back on target their OODA loop had completed, they realized that the target was going down, and they stopped shooting. This resulted in an accurate 1 shot stop in the data. With the other calibers a person could get 2-4 shots on target before their OODA loop completed resulting in targets that would have been one shot stops had the person stopped shooting after one shot. But since the shooter shot the shootee 2-4 times it was not counted correctly in the data. This raised the effective percentage of one shot stops of the other calibers and brought them all into one standard deviation of the .357.
John Correia says “You can’t miss fast enough to win.” As others have said, shot placement is king. Practice, practice, practice.
The other thing was bears. You might to read Dean Weingarten’s series of articles on actual bear defense with handguns, published at Ammoland. The TLDR is that handguns of all calibers, from .22 to 10mm and .44 have a 97% chance of stopping a bear attack.
Oh, a third thing. Hip and spine shots are also effective stoppers. Spine is usually not targetable intentionally, but you can definitely shoot someone in the hip and that will put them on the ground, though they may still be able to act.
Pelvis – I think you mean pelvis.
The Crimson Pirate,
Excellent comment.
I will offer one correction on calibers and stopping bear attacks. While every caliber (more or less) has managed to stop a bear attack or kill a bear, the larger calibers are much more reliable at stopping a bear quickly–especially if start talking about grizzly bears or worse brown bears (of the Kodiak variety).
From what I remember of the research, 9mm Luger is the absolute minimum for stopping black bears–and even then it would tend to be lacking at the larger end of the scale for black bears. You have a much greater probability of promptly stopping a black bear (especially larger specimens) with .357 Magnum, 10mm Auto, .41 Magnum, and .44 Magnum–all loaded with heavy-for-caliber hardcast bullets ideally. Of course even larger calibers with heavy-for-caliber bullets will work even better.
And if we bring grizzly and brown bears into the discussion, conventional wisdom says that .44 Magnum is the minimum–with even larger calibers being preferred.
Having said all that, while my dedicated “woods defense” handgun is a .44 Magnum revolver with 6-inch barrel, on my last outing I simply toted my every-day-carry full-size semi-auto handgun chambered in .40 S&W loaded with 180 grain bonded-jacketed hollowpoints (in its standard 15-round magazine with a second 15-round magazine on my belt) for black bear defense. My thinking was: what my semi-auto handgun lacks in terms of bullet size and velocity compared to my .44 Magnum, it makes up for in rapid-fire capability. And at close range, a fusillade of several .40 caliber, 180 grain bullets impacting at about 900+ feet-per-second is nothing to sneeze at.
more truth. I’ve never felt under gunned carrying my PPK/s because I can “shoot the eye out of a bird flying” with it as they said in the movie.
With this post I’m trying to unsubscribe to this venue, where hubris exceeds knowledge by a factor of 100.
Don’t let the door hit you. You get what you pay for. YMMV, etc.
There’s not a lot of unsubscribing that has to be done. Just don’t come here if you don’t like the intellectual stimulation. TTAGS doesn’t nag you to grace their pages.
Who are you?
.32 Auto isn’t all that much more expensive than 9mm Makarov.
I have to agree with the author for the most part. So many folks think that they can shoot a micro-compact 9mm with anywhere near the accuracy and speed of something like a .32 auto in a similar-size and weight weapon. If they can then they need to be on a professional shooting team. Most of us don’t shoot that well but we could handle the recoil OK although it would be punishing and unpleasant. A newer shooter, especially a woman or someone with a smaller stature is not going to handle it well or be able to shoot it well or accurately and it would take years of experience to get to a point where it would even be merely unpleasant.
Whereas a tiny mouse gun like the Kel Tec p32 is pretty easy to get used to comparatively. It would be pleasant to shoot and train often with. Like I said before.32 auto isn’t all that expensive when bought in bulk. A new shooter would be more likely to actually train with it than with a micro in 9mm or even .380
100 percent agree. The .32 ACP is superior for pocket pistols compared to 380 ACP
Travis, what models of . 32 pistols do you like/carry?
the KelTec P32 and Beretta Tomcat. I like the P32 a bit more. Those are my carry choices, but I own a variety of historical 32s from Savage, Colt, and FN.
I totally agree a new shooter must be introduced to guns with one that’s easy to shoot. A pleasant to shoot firearm.
Guns that are unpleasant to shoot don’t get trained with.
I think the only reason why the industry is pushing 9 mm. It’s because that’s what the government uses. So mass production simply makes it easier for the ammunition industry to produce 9 mm than any other caliber.
My 32H&R Charter Arms revolver and keltec p32 are both very pleasant to shoot.
Lots of new shooters in the last few years too. It doesn’t do any of them much good to read the hogwash some writers spew out here and other e-rags about how 9mm is the minimum for self-defense or maybe .380 at the very least.
I do like my KelTec P-32 but let’s not overlook the Beretta 81 in .32 ACP as well as the CZ 70. The Underwood Ultimate Defender and Ultimate Penetrator rounds in .32 ACP are pretty intimidating.
I am interested in the CZ-50 and CZ-70 and really wish I had taken advantage of the surplus deals when they were being imported in numbers a few years back. Some places still have them but not at the same low prices -still cheaper and much easier to find than an older Walther PPK in .32 by a fair stretch.
very surprised to see so many .32 aficionados. i didn’t realize people carried them, i’ve only seen them collected. sp101 in .327 i get, but i’d never gone below 9×18. cz82? i forget.
@tsb
It’s the new narrative.
“No such thing as stopping power” ==> “buy 32”.
Lol.
“No such thing as stopping power” ==> “buy 32”.
My 10mm G29 would disagree with that statement…
“Yet no scientific method for measuring or evaluating ‘stopping’ power exists with regardt to why a .45 ACP round is better and ending a threat than a 9mm round.”
Regards.
“Another real benefit of JHP ammunition is the fact it don’t tend to over-penetrate and zip through a target.”
It doesn’t tend.
I suppose it was the 20 years I worked in the printing industry. Typos and poor grammar jumps off the page when I see it.
“Typos and poor grammer jumps off the page when I see it.”
…jump off the page when I see them.
(-:
Savage
It’s diction, not grammar.
And furthermore, to decimate something is to reduce it by 1/10, not to destroy it. Ok, yes, that one was totally gratuitous.
DARGAFF?
Gun researcher John Lott has said 90% of self-defense gun use, doesn’t involve pulling the trigger at all.
So the caliber doesn’t matter. As the founder of Gunsite colonel Jeff Cooper said. “The first thing to have in a gun fight is to have a gun.”
The most reliable gun you can have is a revolver. And yes they don’t have 15 rounds in them. A revolver in the correct caliber. 22LR or 32 smith and Wesson. Is easier to shoot than nearly any 9mm semi-auto.
I remember when civilians were told. You had to have a 45 ACP because that’s what the military used.
Now civilians are told you have to have a 9 mm. Because once again, that’s what the military uses. And people were also told. They had to have a 38 caliber revolver, because that’s also what the military used to use.
A few years ago in Louisville Kentucky, a man sitting on a restaurant patio and enjoying his meal, was confronted by a mob of BML supporters, several were carrying long guns.
He pulled out and pointed at the mob. His single action, North American Arms five shot mini revolver. That was plenty of fire power to stop that mob dead in their tracks. And he didn’t have to shoot anyone.
Fuks a BML?
blk male lesbo.
Savage!
I’ve replied thusly twice in this thread and I hardly every say it. I am thinking of changing my Username to BML
Wasn’t the guy also arrested for terroristic threat or brandishing a firearm or some such dumb shit…
“Yet no scientific method for measuring or evaluating ‘stopping’ power exists with regardt to why a .45 ACP round is better and ending a threat than a 9mm[…]”
Tell it to the Moros.
There is a myth – the myth is that stopping power is a myth. Another myth – that it can’t be measured. Myth #3 – it cant be defined.
It is just physics. Neutrinos penetrate, rabies is lethal, sledge hammers stop things.
If one wants to argue that stopping power is negligible in handguns that can be concealed on a hot day on Houston there can be a reasonable debate. Otherwise, the folks who refuse to distinguish between lethality and blunt force are blowing smoke..
To quote a now passed guy who could prove in court that he was not bragging – “l have shot a lot of people with a lot of different calibers, and I am here to tell you, – if you have to shoot a man holding a gun who is trying to kill you, you want the biggest damn thing you can get..”
Some years ago, a person shot 7 sleeping people with a 25 acp. In the forehead. All of them survived, albeit some with permanent brain damage. Do you think that outcome could happen with a Russian execution caliber?
This stuff is not unexplored territory. Just *one* of Stalin’s thugs shot over 10000 people, one at a time. Commie calibers were designed for summary executions – the 45 acp was designed for stopping people.
.30-40 Krag had failures to stop Moros. Is the .45 acp more powerful than the Krag?
Lol, a trick question! Shocker!
When armadillos first appeared in my neighborhood, their population exploded to the point where seeing 8 or 10 in an afternoon was common. At 10 feet, with GI hardball, a heart lung shot would usually result in an _immediate_ runoff – jump straight up in the air, and run WAY off. At 15 or 20 yards, the same load would roll them. Then after a minute, they would wake up and run off. You do the math.
In an apparently irrelevant aside, I can report that if you use a 270, pieces might land on your hood. Big pieces.
Practical ballistics is complicated.
The armadillo population has stabilized, so I no longer bother them. Although the holes they dig can be annoying as hell.
I would say the “failure” was in the shooter and NOT the 30-40 round… The 30-40 was adequate to take down a record Big Horn it would certainly be capable of taking down a Philippine Muzzy…
And no the .45 is not more powerful than the 30-40, but my .45 sent more than a few “gooks” to that great rice paddy in the sky…
Double of nuthin’ is still nuthin’ -all pistol cartridges lack power compared to high-powered rifles. Poking holes is about all they can do. Some poke larger holes but a hole is a hole that might bleed out and lower blood pressure enough to eventually incapacitate. Shot placement is all-important. Where you put that hole and how many you can lit there in a given limited time is WAY more important than how big it is. Hit critical organs and they bleed quickly. Miss those and it doesn’t matter all that much how big the hole is. You’ve gotta hit with accuracy. Smaller easier to control cartridges allow the shooter to shoot faster and more accurately than larger ones.
Double of nuthin’ is still nuthin’ -all pistol cartridges lack power compared to high-powered rifles.
2022: 7963 homicides by handgun… 963 by rifles and “other firearms”… another 5704 by “unspecified firearms”…
Stalin’s thug used a Colt .25 ACP.
Unkle Adolph used a .32 ACP Walther to end it all when he got sick of hiding in his bunker. One-shot stop.
And a cocktail of drugs…
Time to repost a classic: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
So what science are we using? I remember the FBI working with the Relative Incapacitation Index in the 70s.
Hollow points at high speed were at the top in serious caliber.
It is my understanding (I could be mistaken) that the FBI was using Silvertips in the Miami shootout. If that is so, doesn’t the Silvertip meet the current FBI penetration standard through clothing.
My opinion is that the FBI wanted to displace attention to some poor tactics (not slamming the agents here) and questioned their caliber. The choose the 10 and then downloaded it so agent could quality – which gave us the 40. I believe they switched back to help agents qualify. And costs.
Most police forces switched to the 9mm in 80s cited high capacity and the fact most officers could shoot the autos better. It wasn’t because the 357 magnum didn’t perform.
The fellow over at Lucky Gunner noted when testing the 357 Sig that it “didn’t perform any better” than 9mm since they both meet the penetration minimum and didn’t over penetrate. Watching the blocks it is easy to see a larger stretch cavity and lifting the entire block with the 357 sig ammo (best rounds).
If I was aiming for at least 12 inches of penetration – I want it to get there with the most violence and damage it can muster. If you only want penetration, then 38 wad cutters would seem a great choice. Then you might say “they over penetrate”. This should matter for stopping a fight – unless keeping all the energy released inside the body does make a difference – which would again lean toward heavier calibers.
Don’t get me wrong – I carry a 380 every day and a heavier caliber on some days.
But the FBI created a set of parameters that has become the target for ammo manufacturers. This is because it is hard to quantify what will stop a human target.
I favor hollow points most calibers that will meet the FBI standard. I still carry hollow pints in my 38 snub even though they are not as likely to open as in a 4 inch gun. I am absolutely sure a regular 38 SWC will not expand – so if a 38 FBI load will expand I want all that energy staying inside the target.
YMMV
you are totally right about the FBI and their poor tactics. everyone mentions the 10mm but it’s worth noting the FBI also changed their training and equipped every car with two long guns.
When I read the part that said…”I carry a .32 ACP daily and with the right ammo it can stop a threat just as quickly as a .45 ACP”…I had to stop reading, because I was laughing so hard.
If nothing else this proves that just because someone writes for an internet gun site…does not necessarily mean they actually know what they are talking about.
do you think that a 32 ACP to the heart somehow doesn’t kill a threat as well as a .45 ACP to the heart?
Travis, demonstrably yes. The more cardiac tissue is destroyed the less it will be able to pump blood to the brain and other vital organs.
The difference in having your assailant incapacitated in 5 seconds versus 3.5 seconds is literally your life and death.
JWTaylor is exactly correct here.
Travis, “killing” is irrelevant. A 22 short to the heart will kill a man just as dead as a .50 BMG to the heart. But the .50 BMG will do it a hell of a lot quicker! And that time difference is crucial to the outcome of a violent encounter.
There is only one very tiny place in the body where the bullet really is irrelevant, and that’s the brain stem. Damage the brain stem and the person stops existing immediately.
But that’s it. Everywhere else, a bigger bullet will do more damage to more tissue than a smaller bullet will. A big bullet to the heart causes it to deflate rapidly; a small bullet to the heart may cause it to leak slowly. As JWTaylor said, a big bullet may hit an organ or vein or artery that a little bullet just misses, and that’s literally the difference between life and death (see, for reference, the 9mm that just stopped short of the heart in the FBI’s Miami shootout).
I think you’re confusing hitting an organ with destroying that organ. That’s just not the case. Damaging an organ (like the brain) is likely a valuable hit in a fight, but is not a guaranteed fightstopper. For example, look at Gabby Giffords, she was shot in the brain with a 9mm FMJ. She had damage to her brain, yes, but she’s not dead, she’s alive and mostly well.
To repeat, the only organ (if you can call it that) that shuts you down by being damaged, is the brain stem. Anything else – the heart, lungs, kidneys, liver, or pretty much any other vital organ — the AMOUNT of damage done is paramount to determining whether the person can continue willfully functioning. And bigger, heavier, expanded bullets do more damage than small bullets do, every time.
Any hit from a 10mm is better than any hit from a 9mm to the exact same spot. And a hit by a 9mm is better than any hit from a .32 at the exact same spot. And a hit by a .32 is better than a hit from a .22 at the exact same spot.
.357 = 10mm =.45 Super > .40 > 9mm > .38 Special > .380 > .32 > 22.
Where it gets confusing is when we get to different placement. A 10mm to the buttocks may result in a nasty wound, but a .22 to the heart WILL lead to involuntary incapacitation. That doesn’t make a .22 better than a 10mm; a 10mm to that same spot on the heart will lead to much faster involuntary incapacitation.
You’re right, there’s no such thing as “stopping power” in a handgun cartridge. But there is such a thing as a more damaging bullet, and a more damaging bullet placed properly will always end a fight quicker than a less damaging bullet would.
I wouldn’t go any lower than 9mm/.38Special for any concealed carry.
40, 44, 45, 357Mag/Sig, and 10mm all make for great self defense rounds. But many people can’t handle the recoil of some of those. Not everyone can handle the grip of certain things. I suggest carrying the highest caliber you shoot well. From .380acp on down…use those for plinking and training. But you are welcome to choose as you wish.
I’ll stick with my .40 S&W cal.
“size doesn’t matter as much as penetration and shot placement.”
Assuming that I can choose between a 9mm that is statistically almost guaranteed to penetrate 9 inches, or a 10mm with the same statistics – then obviously, the bigger hole is more desirable. I can’t argue that size matters more than penetration, but I’ll definitely argue that all other things being equal, bigger holes are better.
Personally, I’m partial to the .45ACP, fired from a 1911 government model. Good penetration with the right round, and they tend to leave pretty big holes.
A good copy and paste from a 1990s Marshall and Sanow story.
I cannot imagine anyone carrying a pistol of less than 9mm by choice.
Statistics are used by rascals to impress fools—Jeff Cooper
(since we are rehashing 1990s arguments)
So called stopping power studies are not valid IF in fact the shooting are anything but a product of the authors imagination. Mostly a hoax like the old goat shooting hoax
Gelatin testing is the only reliable way to compare loads
115+115=230 .45acp wins
No?
Okay, two shots from a 25 =50
I’ve got this math thing f>gured out
👋+👋is ten
lol you are kidding but some think that. They do not understand arithmetic and geometric progression.
OMG! When Col. Thompson tested a number of handgun cartridges because the 38 S&W (not S&W 38 Special) army load proved to be ineffective against Moros, the U,S, Army was still thinking about having to shoot horses. That study led to the 45 ACP cartridge, and soon after the classic COLT 1911. The FBI shoot-out ended when a 38 Special bullet penetrated deep enough to hit a vital organ. In Cuba, the good Doctor Chi personally killed hundreds with his 32 ACP, by shooting them in the back of the head. SO – What does this mean? Bullet placement is the key factor in any defensive use of a handgun. While a 45 has sufficient power to easily penetrate the human body, (and a 357 mag maybe better), if a handgun is too hard/difficult to shoot accurately, then it shouldn’t be your first choice for self-defense. With age, when a 357 or 45 becomes too much gun to handle, a 380 or even a 32 makes for a better option than to not carry any gun.
In Cuba, the good Doctor Chi personally killed hundreds with his 32 ACP, by shooting them in the back of the head.
A projectile impacting the brain stem pretty much severs all contact between vital organs and the device (brain) that controls their function even a .22 (or an icepick) can accomplish that…
Cops switched to 9mm in the 80s because the FBI was going through, how to say it, considerable demographic change in hiring. For various reasons, most of the new hires couldn’t handle the recoil of a .357 magnum, or even bear the weight of a steel revolver. That is also the reason the FBI switched back to 9mm; new hires couldn’t handle the recoil of the 10mm or 40 S&W, and complained about it. The choice of the 9mm round is a personnel and bean-counting issue, and has nothing to do with ballistic effectiveness. They may say it does, and concoct all sorts of studies to back up what they say, but this is a government agency here. You trust what they tell you?? Don’t. They’re lying.
The 9mm round is a decidedly mediocre man-stopper.
“But muh modern powders and bullets!” Yeah, well all cartridges benefit from advancements in ballistics technology.
“But muh shot placement!!” Yeah, well, shoot a guy in the wrist with a 9mm and he’s wounded. Shoot a guy in the wrist with a .44 magnum, or even a .357 magnum, and he’s lost his hand. I’d say quite a bit more of a chance for a psychological stop in such a case. How many videos have I seen on the Internet of a cop plugging round after round of “modern 9mm with the best powders and bullets” center mass of some psycho perp and the guy just keeps on ticking? Dozens.
“But muh gel tests!!” Great for comparing relative performance of different rounds, but useless for predicting absolute effect on a target, with a skeleton, and behind cover. It would be better to use Paul Herrel’s meat target.
“But muh capacity!” Citizens almost never need to reload in a shooting. The same could be said of cops. I listened to an interview of a Chicago cop on the job for 25 years. Of the dozen or so shootings he was involved in, he reloaded in only one, and that is because the perp had barricaded himself in a building and the cops were trying to take him out. He also said he carries the largest, fastest caliber he can get away with, and it isn’t the 9mm.
And if the 9mm, or .45ACP, is so capable, why do the 9mm and .45 ACP weenies want to push it faster with +p and +p+?? To be more effective, perhaps??
Logic dictates, all other things being equal, larger hollow nose projectiles moving faster will penetrate deeper and cause more damage. The more damage caused, the higher the chance of a “stop.” You don’t hunt elk with a 147 grain 9mm round fired from a microcompact, for obvious reasons.
“The 9mm round is a decidedly mediocre man-stopper.”
One might take into consideration the tens of thousands dead as a result of contact with a 9mm round, especially in Europe.
“the tens of thousands dead as a result of contact with a 9mm“
Yes, the ever popular appeal to popularity fallacy.
MINOR49er, By “contact as a result of contact with a 9mm” what do you mean? Does that include touching the ammo still in the box? JBOL@
Oh incidentally, here is something on voter fraud in Arizona: https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/elections/least-5600-federal-only-ballots-cast-az-2020-general-election-without-us
Sure makes 2020’s results in Arizona at best questionable?
This statement only makes sense of there is data that shows the effects of a larger, faster caliber in the same situation.
“This statement only makes sense of there is data that shows the effects of a larger, faster caliber in the same situation.”
Actually, the statement needs no comparison with other calibers, because the other calibers were not (except rifles and machineguns, etc) are not the subject; lethality, usefulness of 9mm is the entirety of the matter.
The impressive number of people extinguished by 9mm bullets speaks for its effectiveness. The number of persons sent on their way by larger caliber handgun bullets is far less impressive.
meat tests are not a good medium. They might be meat but they don’t simulate human flesh as well as people think
Yeah … meat targets simulate human flesh about the same as gel tests.
Poorly.
gel isn’t supposed to simulate human flesh. It provides a repeatable medium for testing.
Gel tests are the “global warming” of the ballistics world. Complete and utter bulls* uttered by grifters that sounds good, but crumbles under the least bit of scrutiny.
“Gel tests are the “global warming” of the ballistics world.”
Gel tests demonstrate how different objects operate/perform under a controlled set of circumstances; nothing more. Because they are repeatable, gel tests can be informative, useful.
There is no gold standard test for how different bullets perform in live human samples; can’t be.
Sam I Am is exactly correct here.
Science depends on repeatability and limitation of variables. Proper ballistic gel (organic gel, made from ground-up pig flesh) is a very specific medium, prepared in a very specific way, and kept at very specific temperatures, and tested to very specific measurements for calibration, to provide a repeatable test medium.
“fake” ballistic gel, like people making jello or using polymer waxes or other artificial substances, are not ballistic gel. Tests done using those other mediums will never be as informative, reliable, and relatable as tests done using the one universally agreed upon reliable test medium.
And meat tests are, mostly, absurd. It’s just a free-for-all out there, people using grocery store items to simulate a human, or putting blocks of wood in gel to simulate bones, etc. It all quickly becomes a meaningless waste of time because there is simply no way to reliably compare all these homemade solutions against any other test.
Travis is correct, meat tests are extremely unhelpful, if the meat has been dead for more than a few minutes. Decomposition, draining of fluids, refrigeration, all result in an end product that bears little relationship to highly saturated living tissue. “meat tests” and “ballistic gel dummies” are all ways of people trying to create something that cannot be recreated: a living human body. The only way to get real data on what any particular bullet does to a human body is to examine actual shooting victims during their surgeries. And there’s just about zero chance of being able to relate those observations to generalized conclusions because every body is different, and every shot placement is different, and you’re not likely to have any idea what the actual bullet is that you’re observing!
That leaves us with two things: ballistic gel tests, and reports of officer-involved shootings about how various calibers or particular ammo performed. That’s the best we can do.
That leaves us with two things: ballistic gel tests, and reports of officer-involved shootings about how various calibers or particular ammo performed. That’s the best we can do.
There is always the plethora of videos of cops (and civilians) emptying their 9mm handguns into a bad guy and the bad guy still advancing…
“There is always the plethora of videos of cops (and civilians) emptying their 9mm handguns into a bad guy and the bad guy still advancing…”
Yes, there is that. The fact is that all handguns are lousy stoppers. It’s not just 9mm though. One example off the top of my head is officer Gramins, who – well, let me quote:
“At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition – six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations.”
This is from the famous story of the cop who now carries 145 rounds.
Sometimes people comply very quickly when they’re shot with anything, including the .22 LR. And sometimes, they will absolutely not stop until their body is so damaged that it is impossible for them to continue. In officer Gramins’ case, it took three shots of .45 JHP to the head (besides the other 11 shots he’d already absorbed!)
“In this free-for-all, the assailant had, in fact, been struck 14 times. Any one of six of these wounds – in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney – could have produced fatal consequences, “in time,” Gramins emphasizes.”
But he kept coming, and kept firing, until Gramins caught him peeking under the car he was using for cover, and three quick shots all impacted his head, including the showstopper, a .45 JHP to the brain.
Note: that shot to the brain stopped him. BUT IT DID NOT KILL HIM. He was still responsive when the EMS arrived, and survived the ride to the hospital, and expired as the ER staff was working on him.
The whole gunfight lasted 56 seconds. When a gang disciple who vowed to kill a cop is emptying a full 9mm and then a full .380 at you, that’s a pretty long time, and seconds definitely count.
Now, take from that example what you will. Officer Gramins’ response was to ditch his .45 and go for something with more capacity, a 9mm, with enough mags that he has 145 rounds on hand. My response was to sideline my .45’s and go for something with more capacity and even more yeet, 10mm, with a small 9mm as backup.
My response was to sideline my .45’s and go for something with more capacity and even more yeet, 10mm, with a small 9mm as backup.
Been carrying a 10mm G29 for over 20 years… Keep a 4 1/2″ barrel AR in 9mm in the tour pack with three extra 32 round mags (4 total) in case the wife runs of .38 special.. My backup is four mags of 185 grain hollow point 10mm @ 17 rounds each (plus one 225 grain hard cast lead for that really stubborn bad guy)… If that can’t get the job done then fuck it, just take me, I’m ready anyway…
The whole gunfight lasted 56 seconds. When a gang disciple who vowed to kill a cop is emptying a full 9mm and then a full .380 at you, that’s a pretty long time, and seconds definitely count.
As a Marine Vietnam Vet with numerous “live fire” encounters over 39 months I am very aware of the length of a “second” in a firefight…
Retired long time ER nurse here. In my experience bullets DO bounce around! SOMETIMES. When and why are highly variable, though. First hand experience, a .22LR to the head, entered the skull with fatal outcome. Head X-rays showed multiple bright spots, likely lead fragments where lead was deposited on the inner skull bone. The remains of the lead hollow point were not seen. A .38 round from close to the side of the skull above and forward of the ear, didn’t penetrate the skull but instead tunneled forward between soft tissue and the skull, crossed across the forehead and exited the soft tissue on the opposite side from the entrance wound. A bullet, caliber forgotten, struck a lower front rib, apparently tunneled downwards and after extensive searching was found as a palpable lump just above the knee (Honest, X-ray confirmed) towards the inside of the leg on the same side of the body. There were likely others but after decades of work, these 3 stand out in my memory, seen first hand. In each case it seemed bone had redirected the projectiles’ energy.
@uncommon_sense
“+1 from me as well for use of “gadzooks”!”
uncommon_sense December 10, 2023 At 21:20
https://www.rd.com/list/idiom-origins/
https://www.etymonline.com/word/gadzooks
A lot of bad “logic” in the above article. If caliber size really doesn’t matter: then why the big push for hollow point “expansion” in 99% of marketed defensive handgun ammo? Even the “most recent” FBI 9mm swap justification referenced new bullet technology (MagicBeans) producing 9mm expansion to near 40S&W!
A larger caliber/diameter hole/channel will always “impact a larger area than a smaller one. I’d rather nick a heart, aorta, lung or artery than just pass by them.
Sure, shot placement is always #1 but would the Readers be that good under real world conditions and stress? So if chances are fading fast from that last perfect Range Drill, I don’t think tryig to sell smaller calibers is prudent.
Pick the largest caliber that you can effectively utilize, that gives you X diameter with FMJ. Now you can use the FBI load or other magic beans AND IF thy fail to expandas they all can: you’ve still got a larger projectile to begin with.
Let’s not forget winter is here and so are multiple extra layers of clothing, one more reason to leave the 22/25/32s in the safe.
Expansion is covered in the article.
You can’t have it both ways. If weak, small diameter calibers are “good enough” then why must they rely on the crutch of their (limted) expansion? The 22/25/32s may have a place in deep cover or BUG roles but not the front defense line unless that’s the most gun/recoil a person can be proficient with.
To each, his/her own choice. As above, unless you are limited: why in the world would a person deliberately handicap themselves when preparing for a life or death situation.
Once again so much bullshit Surely the lmain point of a hand gun as any kind of deterrent is that YOU DO HOT HAVE TO USE IT IY you are p[onyim ng a hangun at a bad guy or gal I very much douibt bthat they are going to waste any bloody time considering calbres atec, They are either going to SHOOT YOU FIRST or they are going to ,bugger off. Or if they suspect that you are armed will just shoot you anyway. Those Bad people have just the same survival instincts To compare SELF DEFENCe with Law Neforcement in any way is pretty damn naive to say the least because as far as I know any Officer engaged in LAW ENFORCEment nwhere the use of firearms may be nessessary will ALWAYS have a FIREARM/HANDGUN locked-loaded and in-hand , Which illy ustrates the act point I’m trying to make ; The fat is that if that OFFICER has reason to believe that they are under a
life threatening situation they WILL shoot just like those bad people trying to nick you wallet or your home contents.
When will the gullible AMERICAN PUBLIC wake uo to rthe fact that 90% od the utter bollocks talked about FIREARMS OWNERSHIP in the USA is nothing more or less than one GIGANTIC Marketting exercise and that most of tghe LEGISLATURE of the USA is in the pockets of the FIREARMS INDUSTRY who put PROFIT before L FIREARM baseedd ife and Limb.
If firearms ownership was a try ue deterrent to crime in the USA why does the DEATH rate due to cun crime contoinue to rise, why does the incidence of MASS C Shootings continue to rise/ Why so SCHOLL <SHOOTINGS continue to rise tomthe point wher it becomes nessessary to have permanent ARMED Guards in nScj mhools and thatrther are serious moves to ARM SCHOLLTEACHERS to mthe point wher, if things carry on as they are ALL TEACHERS qwill have to have hugh brade Comebtency Firearms Certification and the indications are that such a ove would acty uallybrecierve massive support
It's not even as if the Firearms Inductey cannot be legaally called to accout because a manutacturer has already been hit with ma $US70 million Damages fine
“Once again so much bullshit”
It’s unusual to see a writer speak the truth about the screed that follows, in the very first words of his post.
Prince Albert: I honestly pray that YOU are not a prime example of the British education system. I have NEVER seen such a jumbled up, fucked up, string of illiterate verbiage (look it up)… Good thing for you (not so much for us) that breathing is an involuntary reflex (look it up)…
Unfortunately he is. The whole island is populated by similar nincompoops. .All their ancestors who had a shred of individualism and could think for themselves emigrated generations ago. What was left was the weak and the timid to breed their sad descendants we see living there today.
The answers to your questions are found in the processes of liberalism moving through progressivism on it’s way to communism.
The problem isn’t that people have guns. It’s in the creation of criminals with no accountability. You can label it with whatever you like. But the Obama dream of fundamentally transforming this country simply cannot happen without making everyone crazy. Trump was absolutely correct when he stated that this country would never be socialist. If that were to actually happen here it would mean that it would no longer be America. The land would remain but the nation of the USA would cease to exist. Your not likely to understand any of this though. That is sad but quite true. Otherwise you wouldn’t be questioning this in the first place. It’s all been explained to you before more than once.
Follow the left over a cliff with ignorance.
Hey guys, Albert is back. Still worried about our 2nd Amendment but seems to not care about his own problems with spelling. ROFLMAOBT!
Spelling, grammar, structure, punctuation… Who knows, (p[onyim ng) might be how they spell “I’m a moron” in Britain…
+ 1 to the screed
Cracked 100 comments. TTAG is gonna make bank again on this topic, just in time for Christmas bonuses.
Holy crap am I ever sick of this B.S. topic. Just leave it alone already!
“Holy crap am I ever sick of this B.S. topic. Just leave it alone already!”
No!. My ammo choice is the only correct one, and you need to know it and adjust your thinking. And comply.
I wasn’t gonna comment at all but ‘gadzooks’ along with a couple of other comments reminded me of ‘balderdash’ (albert) and ‘malarkey’ (minor) -’nuff said about a LOT of the other (at best) anecdotal comments. Again ’nuff said on the original topic.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/bella-twin-the-little-woman-and-the-really-big-bear/
Inuit woman kills Grizzly bear with 22lr
I rotate my EDC. I have a S&W Model 19 Performance Center with 2.5″ barrel, a S&W 629 snub nose .44 magnum, a Glock 19 and a S&W 5.7. I also carry a Ruger EC9 (I think that’s the model, I’m not a fan of Ruger but this was the smallest 9mm with the highest capacity I could source locally as a backup) The old adage, two is one and one is none comes to mind and is the reason I carry a backup. But the S&W 5.7 holds 23 rounds with low recoil and easy follow ups……the only detriment being it is a larger gun to conceal. Truth be told, other than weight, the 44 magnum is the easiest to conceal of the main guns I carry. Yes, it is easier than a glock 19.
Sorry Travis, but you have the facts wrong.
Even the Army Ballistician points out that the FBI tests in gel show what a bullet does in gel.
A temporary wound channel has nothing to do with stopping a person…….you need a permanent wound channel.
In addition, contrary to your statement, some bullets do provide a shock as they travel at high speeds. The transfer of energy is defined by mass and bullet weight. You can read the exact calculation at: https://saami.org/glossary/kinetic-energy-formula/
Speed kills and destroys tissue.
You want a permanent wound channel and that’s why Liberty Ammo is designed for high speed and it hits harder than others.
More than happy to send you a box…..
I take much exception to this author’s statements. One of the first is the .22LR to the brain is the same as a .45 to the brain. That is BS. The .45 will penetrate the cranial cavity easier then the .22LR if we are talking about combat distances. As I mentioned in a reply, the author failed to mention one of the bad guys in the Miami Shootout had taken 12 9mm rounds, with one round being a fatal wound, and was still shooting FBI agents and LEO. I agree with a number of responders here, carry the largest caliber gun you can shoot comfortably and accurately. I’ll leave with this one story. Shot placement is critical, but a guy I use to work with could shoot the bulleye out a 25 yards day in and day out. As a cop one day he got into a shoot out. 25 rounds fired. No one hit. When the feces impacts the wind generatirng device, shot placement becomes very difficult
I have commented several times that the distance you can place 5 shots into a 5″ diameter target in 5 seconds shrinks from yards to feet, maybe even inches, under stress. This was the result of listening to my father and several of his fellow LEOs years ago. Worse case was an officer shooting at a robber at ~30 feet. Officer fired all 5 rounds in his S&W “J” frame 38 and then realized he was empty. Thankfully the robber dropped his shotgun. P.S. – robber wasn’t hit once even though this was in an empty parking lot. Agree that the largest caliber handgun one can properly handle is the best option, but main issue is that most people can’t shoot a fellow human being. Once I shot a 50AE pistol at 25 yards and cut the “X” in the bull’s eye at the 5 o’clock position. Still, that one shot was enough to make me think a 9mm/380 would be a better handgun for me personally.
Can we maybe distillate this article’s conclusions into three terms: 1) shot placement, 2) penetration and 3) internal damage? Just askin’.