The Polymer80 Raid: Has the ATF Just Shot Themselves in the Foot?

Polymer80 Buy Build Shoot Kit

Courtesy Polymer80

As TTAG reported earlier today, Polymer80 has been raided by the ATF. The claim seems to be that the company was manufacturing and selling what are legally considered firearms in the form of their Buy Build Shoot Kits.

By noting that the ATF appears to be focusing on complete kits — with all the parts needed to assemble a firearm after drilling and finishing the frame — the ATF seems to have moved from a definition of “firearm” as a frame or receiver that is more than than 80% complete, to something that contains more than 80% of a complete firearm. Judging from media reports, having all the necessary parts in one box pushes it over the 80% threshold, at least in the ATF’s current opinion.

I look forward to reading the warrant affidavit.

If this is the new definition, I see some problems for our friends at the ATF. Consider what comprises a typical pistol:

  • frame
  • trigger group
  • barrel
  • slide
  • recoil spring

If, as the Polymer80 raid seems to indicate, all of those parts now add up to 100% of a firearm, what is the percentage allocated to each component? Can manufacturers soon wave this apparent new definition in the ATF’s collective face and sell completed frames/receivers by themselves as non-firearms? After all, without a slide, barrel or recoil spring, surely that’s less than 80% complete.

Right?

The ATF may have just shot itself in the foot, so to speak. At the very least, they have given us that much more ammunition to demonstrate in court that their definitions are vague, inconsistent, arbitrary and capricious, far beyond the point of mere unconstitutionality.

Keep your eye on this one.

 

comments

  1. avatar MICHAEL A CROGNALE says:

    I am keeping an eye on this one as I know friends who have built several of these frames into complete weapons. My concern is that the ATF seized records. Whose names appear there? Addresses? Can we who have the products expect a “friendly” knock one day? The ATF is doing the bidding of their masters. This is going to get a hell of a lot worse in the coming months.

    1. avatar No_Ones_Home says:

      The ATF is already visiting owners. Over at TFB, their current top post/story is exactly about that.

      Though as stated above here, it’s currently about the “Buy Build Shoot Kits” and owners of those. Whether the ATF moves onto other “80% parts” beyond that remains to be seen…

      1. avatar WING CHUN says:

        SOME OF US WILL FIGHT TO THE DEATH AND KILL AS MANY OF THESE NAZIS AS POSSIBLE WHO ARE COMBAT VETERANS. THIS IS AN ACT OF WAR AND THIS STARTED IN 1993 AND PREPPERS HAVE BEEN WARNING EVERYONE THAT THE FBI/BATF etc. are DOMESTIC GOVERNMENT FUNDED TERRORISTS. THEY ARE NOT IN THE US CONSTITUTION. The founding fathers would have KILLED all of them. In fact they would not even exist under the founding fathers starting with WASHINGTON, ADAMS and JEFFERSON. The biggest threat to AMERICANS who are not fascist like democrats and rinos are the government police thugs such as the FBI, BATF etc.

    2. avatar DK says:

      “The ATF is doing the bidding of their masters.”

      You’re probably right. That’s how big government works. So who are their masters? Doesn’t the ATF report to the DOJ? Who reports to the AG, appointed by our orange, pp grabbing savior of the 2A?

      I’m sure he’ll come riding in on a noble steed soon. Right after he’s done handing out pardons to his buddies (which is more important than our needs) he’ll probably start passing out bump fire stocks, pass the hearing protection act, pass a universal carry law and fix this. /S

      1. avatar Dude says:

        Thank God for Biden, amirite?

        1. avatar DK says:

          No. I’m not stoked about Biden. It’s just hilarious and tragic that this anti 2A stuff happens under Trump’s presidency, but some of these folks are willing to blame Biden, who has absolutely no control… Yet.

          I hope we can admit Trump was a bad idea and get a better Republican option in 4 years so 2A rights can have a chance.

        2. avatar strych9 says:

          At this point it’s unlikely you see another R in the White House for quite a while.

          Even under the best of circumstances and even if you don’t believe that they’re right; A whole heap of people think the election was a fraud and that voting no longer matters. Such people are unlikely to vote again in the near future and without the the GOP can’t win a Presidential election.

          Heck, at this point it’s an open question as to if a bunch of them stay home in the GA Senate races.

        3. avatar strych9 says:

          *without them

        4. avatar Dude says:

          I’m not convinced Ted Cruz was charismatic enough to get people to the polls in 2016. The rest of the republican choices either had zero chance of even making it to the election or they were RINOs. Kasich? Graham? Rubio? Christie? You trust those guys? I voted for Paul in the primaries BTW.

          We usually don’t get a candidate chosen by the people. In the past, it’s always been someone shoved upon us by The Party. Remember, all of the establishment money was on ¡Jeb! in the beginning. The people on the left wanted Bernie. There was legitimate excitement for Bernie. The establishment (which includes the media and tech) chose Hillary and Joe.

        5. avatar Green Mtn. Boy says:

          Two different sides of the same corrupt coin.

        6. avatar rt66paul says:

          Trump is a lame duck president – unless the Supreme Court can invalidate the election because of widespread cheating. The people in the DOJ that were there since Clinton, even George W., and Obama have been waiting for this and want to get a start and assure their jobs under Biden.
          All the agencies do not want someone who is not a true party member. The Dems hate him for doing what they should, support the working class. The Republicans hate him for ruining their importing business and trying to get a manufacturing base back in the US(they won’t make as much money).
          The US is almost ready to exploit. Another generation of joblessness will cement it and the country will be forced to sell off its national resources to China. If we can’t survive as a country, maybe it is time to split up into autonomous states with a much looser union(the way we started after splitting from England)

        7. avatar Anymouse says:

          Trump never was a gun guy — he was ambivalent at best. BATFE was a swamp he could have drained, but he ignored it and let it fester under its previous appointees. His rightfully rejected nominee for director was a police union hack who proposed “assault weapons” bans and testified that Sotomayor was a 2A supporter.

        8. avatar MADDMAXX says:

          You will forget all about this “minor” bullshit when Biden starts rolling out his already written and ready to go Executive Orders banning sales of ARs/AKs, supposed “high capacity mags and trying to force registration under NFA regs (or sell your stuff to the government) and bans sales of parts and ammo on-line… This crap will blow away just like last months pistol/SBR thing did…

      2. avatar Debbie W. says:

        The ATF’s master right now is Donald Trump. Its plain what is going on. Trump was never a gun guy. He lied to us and used us and took our money to get elected. Now hes mad at us for not giving him another four years. This is all Trump lashing out at POTG for failing him personally.

        1. avatar MICHAEL A CROGNALE says:

          Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. The DNC and the communists are in control of the agenda and have been for decades. While it is true that President Trump has not met all of our expectations regarding the 2nd, his accomplishments far outweigh our momentary displeasure with him. The plain truth is that he had far less control over the government than we had hoped for. I seriously doubt that he is aware, even peripherally, of ATF actions in this case. He is too busy fighting for his political life and saving the Republic.

        2. avatar Mark-in-Indy says:

          I doubt that. He received more votes than any past elected president and still came up short. I imagine most Republicans did their part. Democrats did their part also, plus some. It’s that “plus some” that is worrisome.

        3. avatar Debbie W. says:

          Michael you and others were duped by a cross dressing pervert who does not have the balls to show his face and debate me.

          Regarding this topic my commit is at page bottom. 12:05.

        4. avatar Geoff "Trolls, the other white meat" PR says:

          Not the real Deborah…

          EDIT – 12:19 is real Deborah, 11:47 was fake…

        5. avatar Anymouse says:

          Trump has nothing to do with this. His neglect of ATF left it in the hands of the previous lefty bureaucrats. Now that he’s on the way out, they’re pushing their agenda to please the new guy.

        6. avatar TheOtherGeorge says:

          @DK

          If you live to be 100 and if this so called “Democracy” (which it is not, it is supposed to be a Constitutional Republic) still is in existence then, in all those years you will never see another Republican President, not will you see another White man as President, nor likely, will you see another Christian as President. All the above because in just a few short years after President Kamala (sorry, Biden just isn’t gonna be around much longer) takes the helm, the flood gates will open in a big way and “immigrants” (you know the type) will pour in as never before. All beholden to the Democrat party for the goods they will get, endlessly, taken from YOUR wallet. Taken from your SSI, from your bank account (indirectly of course) and from your posterity. Taking the good jobs that should have gone to your children. And on, and on.

        7. avatar DK says:

          George,

          If anyone is on the fence about which way to vote and they stumble across racist false prophecies such as yours, who could blame them for not wanting to vote Republican? If this grim, illogical future of yours comes to fruition, it’ll be the fault of hateful people like you.

        8. avatar Southern Cross says:

          The ATF doesn’t care about who is president now. They only care about who will be president after inauguration day. And they want be in the new president’s good graces with regard to policy and budget allocation.

        9. avatar Ad Astra says:

          Oh no dk got his feelz hurt. Poor baby.

    3. avatar Green Mtn. Boy says:

      Exactly ! It was cover for a ATF phishing expedition, to collect company records to a end that is un Constitutional.

      1. avatar TheOtherGeorge says:

        DK

        ” racist false prophecies”

        Ah, “racist” the standard knee jerk reaction of those who have had their feelings hurt and cannot respond with a more logical argument. Usually the type of person that also uses overworked media standbys such as “Nazi”, and “Fascist” and soon , when the curtain falls and our communist government steps out from behind the shadows, “Capitalist” will be a new epithet as well. You will probably enjoy that one, DK.

        1. avatar DK says:

          George,

          Oh, I get it now. This video cleared it up. There will never be Christmas again either, right?

          https://youtu.be/h_jrebvmPlk

          Ad Astra,

          No my feeling aren’t hurt. I’m relieved. You kids can all keep whining and pointing fingers that recess wasn’t fair, but the people have spoken. We’d rather risk 4 more years of the ATF knocking on our door than live in the Trump nightmare any longer.

          Oh wait, Trump never kept us safe from the ATF anyway. Now I remember. He’s still in power. Will he take action for us or just continue to serve his own agenda? We all know the answer.

          Put your money where your mouth is, bois. Stay strapped or get clapped!

        2. avatar MADDMAXX says:

          Unfortunately the so called “nightmare” you “THINK” has been visited upon you for the past four years was actually “Sweet Dreams” compared to the “HELL ON EARTH” scorched earth scenario that awaits us all on Jan 20 2021… First we’ll get all lubed up by the Biden Executive Orders and THEN when he “FAKES” his illness and steps down over “philosophical” differences with Kammaltoe SHE will shove her 14 inch dildo right up our ass with AOCs Clmate “green new deal” bullshit, Bernies “”free college for all” outright gun confiscation of ALL semi-automatic firearms and “fuck you America” Fauchi shuts down the country indefinitely while Kerry sells us out to Iran, the Bidens load their bank accounts with payoffs from China and the Trump family is dragged through the courts in every Blue state in the country on one bullshit charge after another… Those toilet paper/paper towel shortages won’t seem nearly as important when YOU are digging through dumpsters for a piece of stale moldy bread… I’ll be on my mountain WITH all my guns AND my survival resources/skills waiting out the storm while the Kommies feed on one another “Bon Appetit Mon Frere” you deserve everything you get.

    4. avatar NGA Reader says:

      I would guess that the first thing the ATF would do is run the customer list against a prohibited persons list and visit them.
      Knocking on the door of legal buyers would take a lot of manpower for little results.

      1. avatar MICHAEL A CROGNALE says:

        Under the Harris administration they will work 24/7 to carry out their orders. Manpower will not be in the equation.

        1. avatar MADDMAXX says:

          And if there is any doubt that the minions will follow their masters orders just watch some of the videos of citizens being dragged off to jail for failing to comply with unconstitutional directives to close churches, bars and restaurants and socially distance, wear a mask or just stay at home… while local prosecutors are turning killers, rapists and thieves loose on society… Now you will be dealing with a group of people with the power and finances to not only blatantly steal a national election, but manage to squash EVERY legal challenge all the way up to the Supreme Court… This can only end one of two ways…..

      2. avatar Andrew lias says:

        If this is deemed an invalid seizure that is a bushel basket full of fruit of a poisoned tree.

        1. avatar MICHAEL A CROGNALE says:

          The key word here is “if”. The communists can re-define it any way they wish. The old legal poison tree defense will be rendered moot.

    5. avatar Gordon in MO says:

      That is one reason to never buy online or anyplace with a credit card. Cash only.

      1. avatar Wing Chun says:

        Why are you guys afraid of the fascist Nazi BATF/FBI ? You should always prepare to fight to the death and kill as many of them as possible. Better dead killing many of them or be dead being a law abiding fool like POLYMER80 and many dumb law abiding gun owners knowing REGISTRATION and GUN LAWS like the EXISTENCE of ANY police ( Imperial British invented) is UNCONSTITUTIONAL and an ACT OF WAR. Those of us who are victims of them KNOW we are dealing with terrorists that is government funded that is why some of us would rather die with a bang taking some of them out then be a NEWS subject of a fool ending up as a slave in federal prison or dead. I praise all those who fought and died killing these nazi pigs no matter how they are labeled by the evil media, government and their fascist police like the BATF.

        1. avatar MADDMAXX says:

          that is why some of us would rather die with a bang taking some of them out then be a NEWS subject of a fool ending up as a slave in federal prison or dead.

          Easy to say, not so easy to engage… How many Chinese cops and soldiers were killed during the recent riots in Hong Kong? How many students/dissidents are making Nikes in Chinese prison camps? How many were killed or got disappeared? Hmmmmmmm…. If you’ve never killed you won’t know how you will react til the time comes… I have and I know and I don’t see a prison in my future…. “Death before dishonor” it’s more than just a phrase…

  2. avatar Mike says:

    What this is the beginning of raids on firearms owners. ATF followed the raid on the manufacturer with going after individuals who purchased the kits ( they obtained those names and addresses in the raid). They then confiscated those kits from those purchasers. This was trial run for going after AR-15 like rifles, multi-round pistols, and any other firearm that the swamp ATF will decided to confiscate. The time of communist gun collecting has started.

    1. avatar jwtaylor says:

      How I wish that were true. #sendbachelors

    2. avatar Montana Actual says:

      I have multiple.

      Come and take it. No surrender sheet from me.

    3. avatar Kroglikepie says:

      Don’t threaten me with a good time.

  3. avatar Dale Menard says:

    The writer assumes that in the federal government a law cannot be interpreted in two opposite ways. And that there should be only one interpretation that us peons must obey.

  4. No matter what happens in the near future with the fraudulent https://images.app.goo.gl/UrYDj9gDN2TZtxWo6 administration, we all have to come together and unite, and let those thugs know that we are 80 million strong, and that together “We Will Not Comply!”

    1. avatar frank speak says:

      their goal right now is to make what you’re doing…[or possessing]…illegal….enforcement is likely to come later…and then, perhaps…selectively….it’s a long term plan but the endgame has never been more obvious..

  5. avatar Steve Eisenberg says:

    Do truth or facts matter? Is reality itself even relevant? Less-and-less, I think, these days.

    1. avatar Joe "Fire the prosecutor and you get One Billion Dollars" Biden says:

      Truth over Facts!!!

      1. avatar warfab says:

        My truth, or your truth?

        😉

  6. avatar AlanInFL says:

    Need to remove the law enforcement part of AFTE and turn it back to a tax collection agency.

    1. avatar Fire and Brimstone says:

      Need to dismantle it entirely.

    2. avatar Dude says:

      We already have a tax collection agency. The ATF seems like a redundant, pointless agency.

      1. avatar Gadsden Flag says:

        Dude, you do know that the ATF is part of the Treasury Department. Besides, any time you pay the government money it’s a tax. So when I buy my hunting/fishing license they are collecting a tax. Same with DHSMV, property taxes, etc. All paid through county tax collector’s office. Not that I’m defending the ATF. If you ever read the comic strip B.C. there was an episode of Wiley’s Dictionary, “Dumbfounded, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms.”

        1. avatar Umm . . . says:

          Was. From their website, “ATF is a law enforcement agency in the United States’ Department of Justice . . .”

        2. avatar Dude says:

          From the ATF: “Investigative priorities focus on armed violent offenders and career criminals, narcotics traffickers, narco-terrorists, violent gangs, and domestic and international arms traffickers.”

          Why can’t the FBI do that and the IRS collect the taxes? It seems pointless to me. Government is way too big.

      2. avatar frank speak says:

        they are a pointless, redundant agency…but the left finds them useful…so they continue to survive…if you see an increase in funding and an expansion of this agency it will not bode well for us…

        1. avatar MADDMAXX says:

          they are a pointless, redundant agency

          Sounds like a perfect fit for gun-grabber Francine “Hell yes I’m gonna take your ARs and AKs” Obozo O’Rourke aka Hit and Run Beathoph…..

  7. avatar F_You_Joe_Biden says:

    This is the start of raids on individual citizens.

    1. avatar frank speak says:

      you’ll probably get a threatening letter first…that’s usually how its done…..

      1. avatar MADDMAXX says:

        That’s cool, a little heads up, some lead time for last minute prep is always a good thing…

  8. avatar Shire-man says:

    Eh. Nothing means anything.
    Trusting the law at this point is like trusting the scorpion on your back.

    As an aside I’ve been having a lot of fun today telling people how great it is the government is going to test a rushed vaccine on the elderly and brown people before risking it on us. Got some good reactions from people who just yesterday were so happy that PoC and “high-risk” populations would get it first.

    See, nothing means anything and yet everything means anything.

    1. avatar Dude says:

      After vaccinating the first few people not involved in the clinical trials, they just figured out that you should avoid it if you have a severe food allergy.

      1. avatar strych9 says:

        Kinda goes to Shire-man’s point.

        Look at the vaccine arguments these days and it’s mostly between people who are corrwctly apprehensive about the vaccine but for the wrong reasons and people calling them Kooks while understanding exactly zero about the potential risks themselves.

        In such a situation do valid arguments matter when 99% of people on both sides don’t understand them? Probably not. I mean, mention The Central Dogma of Molecular Biology and Lefties attack you as a religious nut because they’re so poorly educated that they don’t know something from the opening weeks of Bio 101. OTOH, Righties often deny facts in a way that they don’t recognize means that 99% of what they take for granted would have to be an illusion.

        It’s a mess.

        1. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

          While you, on the other hand, are likely fine since your earlier infection has you positive for antibodies.

          (Not that you’re complaining…)

        2. avatar strych9 says:

          You actually touch a very interesting larger point here Geoff, one that goes to the heart of some matters which Sam and I discussed a few months ago.

          The interplay between empirical knowledge and assumption and when to go with either one seems to be something lost on a great number of people these days (which in my opinion has its root in the elevation of technocratic government to essentially a religion in the minds of many).

          In many cases there’s nothing wrong with saying “I don’t know, we should test that and find out”. In fact, this is more often the case in the sciences than not since the list of things we don’t know is far longer than the list of things we do (and that’s just known-unknowns if you want to channel your inner Rumsfeld).

          However, that can have really odd results when you interface the desire for empirical scientific knowledge and public policy. Studies indicate that antibody resistance to CoV-2 last for at least six months. However, winding the clock back we had the question of if a previous infection gave the recovered person any resistance to re-infection for any period of time.

          Now that’s an interesting question from a pure empirical knowledge standpoint because we’d need to study it to find out. But from a personal and public policy point of view it’s getting close to weapon’s grade retardation because intrinsic in the question, which was heavily pushed by the media btw, was the concept that perhaps it was time to throw out everything we already know about immunology, virology and the coronaviridae family of viruses, not to mention what we know works for public health in terms of what ramps up and ramps down people’s immune systems, how common many infections are, what needs and doesn’t need treatment etc etc etc.

          This brings up the question of why the media and government officials in their *cough* benevolent love for us *cough* would do such a thing. I mean, “following the science” is now limited to some specialized portions of one specific discipline within one branch of science? Why? Neil DeGrass Tyson must be fucking crushed, eh?

          But that little debate, because it was political in its nature, had far more widely ranging implications across economics, social stability topics, food, logistics, politics culture and other topics worldwide and the issue, IMHO, was that the asking of the question in the first place was designed from the ground up to be a distraction from any and all other issues directly or tangentially related to the way the answer might affect public policy. Which is to say that the debate, in and of itself, was a defense of the public policy preference that was held by the media and certain other groups at that point in time. Nothing else was allowed to be discussed because… “wE dOn’T KnOw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” the answer to something that, in reality, we have a pretty damned good idea about unless all the rules of the universe magically changed for CoV-2.

          And where did that get us? Well, for starters, it cost tens of millions of Americans their jobs and cost the country trillions in lost productivity and yet more in QE stimulus. On top of that it fucked world-wide logistics to the point that the WHO now worries that 277 million may shortly starve to death world-wide which is an interesting thing in that the Left hates the idea that Trump took us out of the WHO and they demand that we “follow the science” and listen to the WHO… except when it contradicts their own opinions on what’s to be done domestically, and by extension, world-wide because every country must “follow the science” in lockstep which means we all need to do the same thing… By and large such people want continued lockdowns, even harder lockdowns in some cases. Yet when the WHO tells them the ever-growing consequences of those lockdowns they ignore them. When the WHO expresses the opinion that the lockdowns are ultimately counterproductive for the world, likewise that information is disregarded.

          It’s an interesting form of selective and willful myopia… and it’s related deeply to things I’ve discussed here before in rather great detail. It’s also related to the elevation of government to essentially an religion which opens up a whole set of rather interesting issues insofar is that religion has generally been something that stands on its own, apart from the testable world but in this case government is not. That has led to a proclivity among the government-loving cultists to elevate “science” in a manner that makes absolutely zero sense.

          To justify to unlimited scope of government and adherence to it’s dictates one must, like religion, come up with an unlimited knowledge pool upon which to draw. Lacking that within the context of this corporeal reality, science was picked. But the limits of science are obvious to those who study it. And so we end up with a house of cards, a limited knowledge pool being elevated to unlimited status so that it can be used as a justification for the actions of a supposedly omnipotent and omniscient government.

        3. avatar Ed Schrade says:

          What about the vehicle in the vaccine, Poly Ethylene Glycol.

        4. avatar Southern Cross says:

          Anti-vaxxers have the choice NOT to take the vaccine.

          But I do not want their choice to be made my choice.

        5. avatar strych9 says:

          “Anti-vaxxers have the choice NOT to take the vaccine.”

          Nor should they be forced to take this particular set of vaccines. Especially not over something with a 99.86% survival rate.

          In fact, this is the first time in the context of vaccines I’d strongly suggest that people don’t take these, or at least not until we know what they’ll actually do which is somewhere around 2027. This isn’t a traditional vaccine for which we have decades of data and this is built on a new and basically untested technology.

          They’re a fantastic tech that I full support. I do not support deployment of that tech on a wide scale at this point in time.

          But each individual person should be free to decide this on their own.

      2. avatar Miner49er says:

        S9, I kind of like the central dogma of molecular biology, there is zero mention of Gawd or any other sky daddy.

        It’s, you know, science.

        1. avatar Ad Astra says:

          And as usual you miss the entire point of Strych9’s post.

    2. avatar Speaking of the vaccines says:

      “Fact check: Coronavirus vaccine could come this year, Trump says. Experts say he needs a ‘miracle’ to be right.”

      https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/fact-check-coronavirus-vaccine-could-come-year-trump-says-experts-n1207411

      Has NBC News run the story yet declaring that Trump was correct, and that it was a miracle? I can’t seem to find it.

  9. avatar former water walker says:

    Meh…the federales are emboldened from the “apparent” victory of slow Joe & the Kamaltoe. And Donnie never “helped”. Keep yer powder dry. I am in no way invested in building a gat.

  10. avatar StLPro2A says:

    This is all heading in one direction…….and, it ain’t gonna be pretty. Tree of Liberty thirsts mightily.

  11. avatar Darkman says:

    Need to stop bitching, pissing and moaning.

  12. avatar Debbie W. says:

    A Serial Numbered Receiver is considered a firearm whether it is assembled or not. All other parts, components are irrelevant. So make up your mind ATF you cannot have it both ways. Or better yet try to focus on perverts and other scumbags.

    Until people recognize the fact that Gun Control is Rooted in Racism and Genocide and fully reject it on that basis they continue to give Gun Control standing with their lame tit for tat arguments. Perhaps imagining being a helpless slave forced to pick cotton from dusk to dawn or a Jew taken from their family and put on a train to a concentration camp may be a motivation to do more than just blow smoke..

    1. avatar warfab says:

      Technically, not all serialized receivers meet the definition of a firearm. So things get muddy in a hurry.

    2. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

      “Until people recognize the fact that Gun Control is Rooted in Racism and Genocide…”

      That’s the real Deborah… 😉

  13. avatar Ralph says:

    “When I use a word,” the ATF said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” we said , “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said the ATF, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

    An 80% lower will mean anything the ATF wants it to mean at the time, even if it conflicts with what what the ATF said before or says after.

    AS John Roberts may have said, “there’s no point in having power if you can’t abuse it.”

  14. avatar Nanashi says:

    Don’t count on it. SCotUS, Trump judges included, just reaffirmed the Korematsu decision that Constitution can be set aside for “sudden danger”.

    1. avatar Adub says:

      Well, when they decide to round us up, that’ll be the signal.

    2. avatar Ralph says:

      What case was that? In Trump v. Hawaii, SCOTUS said that Korematsu was wrongly decided.

      1. avatar MICHAEL A CROGNALE says:

        From A Legal journal, “ Was Korematsu Overturned? Hawaii v. Trump
        In 2017, President Donald Trump used Executive Order 13769, putting in place a ban on foreign nationals’ entry to the country using a facially neutral policy that predominantly impacts Muslim-majority nations. The court case Hawaii v. Trump reached the Supreme Court in June, 2018. The case was likened to Korematsu by lawyers for the litigants including Neal Katyal and by Justice Sonia Sotomayor, on the basis of a “total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the U.S. because the policy now masquerades behind a facade of national-security concerns.”

        In the midst of his decision with regard to Hawaii vs Trump—upholding the travel ban—Chief Justice John Roberts offered a powerful rebuke to Korematsu, “The dissent’s reference to Korematsu… affords this Court the opportunity to make express what is already obvious: Korematsu was gravely wrong the day it was decided, has been overruled in the court of history, and—to be clear—’has no place in law under the Constitution.'”

        Despite the discussion in both assenting and dissenting arguments over Hawaii vs. Trump, the Korematu decision has not been officially overturned.

        1. avatar MICHAEL A CROGNALE says:

          I forgot to add, the critical difference here is that the Japanese of that time were still under the geas of instant obedience to the Emperor. The elders were psychologically unable to resist. Free born Americans are under no such compulsions. Although the gen x and millenials may be. Time will tell.

  15. avatar warfab says:

    The question of how the parts are factored into the equation of what equals 80% of a firearm is an interesting question. Might this ATF decision converge with the issue of semi-auto pistol frames and AR lower receivers not meeting the definition of a firearm? Both legal situations could very well lead to more parts being serialized (if we ignore the fact that the ATF can’t write laws).

  16. avatar FB says:

    Its not Biden everyone should worry about. You need to be incredibly concerned about the Harris Administration. I can guarantee Biden will not last the first year with his current health issus.
    Harris will become the first female tyrannical president.

    1. avatar MICHAEL A CROGNALE says:

      He will not last a month. I have said that from the moment she was chosen as his running mate. He had no say in the matter. He’s probably not even aware more than peripherally who his cabinet choices and staffers are. He will have a health problem and will, oh so reluctantly, step aside saying something like, “I know that the US will be in good hands with president Harris.”

      1. avatar Andrew Lias says:

        More like Hunter and his China Club getting caught with their hands in xi’s cookie jar. Already in motion.

      2. avatar frank speak says:

        she’s not very popular…[or likable]…and provides the best chance for the repubs to regain the White House….

        1. avatar MICHAEL A CROGNALE says:

          I posted elsewhere that if the communists succeed in stealing GA, an increasingly obvious outcome since they have already requested over a million absentee ballots, that there will never be another free and fair election. The chicago style election machinery is firmly entrenched. None of us on this page will ever see another republican president or majority senate or house.

      3. avatar Miner49er says:

        “He will not last a month. I have said that from the moment she was chosen as his running mate.”

        I disagree, shall we make a friendly wager?

        1. avatar MICHAEL A CROGNALE says:

          Sure, if I am wrong,I will freely admit it. If you are wrong you agree to stop mocking Christians and God. Deal?

        2. avatar MADDMAXX says:

          Sure, if I am wrong,I will freely admit it. If you are wrong you agree to stop mocking Christians and God. Deal?

          It’s a bad bet… Biden must serve at least two years and one day or Kammaltoe can only run once for reelection… Joe makes a year plus before he STEPS DOWN but the deep throat queen will be in charge way early on…. AND yes, I would take THAT bet… loser walks away from TTAG never to be heard from again under ANY name…. TAKERS?

        3. avatar MICHAEL A CROGNALE says:

          My “wager” was with Miner49er. He’s the one who disparages Christians with his constant mocking of “Sky Daddy”. I note, sadly, that he (or she, or it, not sure) has so far not responded. I honestly didn’t expect a reply but had hoped. As for your point about the whore serving etc. I wasn’t aware of that provision. Thanks.

        4. avatar MADDMAXX says:

          Yeah I know who you were wagering with but I quit acknowledging that person some time ago… As far as Kammaltoe I think THEY see her as a placeholder for AOC who will not be able to run on a presidential ticket til 2025.. So she steps up as Kammaltoes VP in 28 and takes over in 30, serves as POTUS til 32 and then can run in 32 and 36…. think long game and ultimate goal (the overthrow of our Constitutional Republic) They’ve been chipping away since the 1930s and finally managed to knock out a big chunk… They know how, they will refine those methods… I have voted for the last time, why bother, just lock and load and wait for the knock on the door..

      4. avatar MADDMAXX says:

        He’s probably not even aware more than peripherally who his cabinet choices and staffers are….

        WRONG…… Did you not SEE his announcement of the appointment of his “GOOD FRIEND” Xavier Broccolini errrr Besserrah errrrrr (after the prompt from his ear piece) Xavier Becerra … As Secretary of Health AND “Education”? Services? Creepy Uncle the “Big Guy” Joe Knows exactly who is going where and this country could not be in better hands…. OBTW just did the math, at $200.00 a pop for each “banned” rifle and magazine over 10 rounds I’ll owe about $50,000.00 in taxes… IF they could ADD another 5 or 10 cents a round for my all my ammo that would add another couple grand, pretty cool for CURRENTLY legal shit that I ALREADY OWN… Just send me a bill fellas and the check is in the mail… (just be VERY careful opening the envelope….

  17. avatar Sk Skeeter says:

    Hope the folks at Polymer 80 can keep their mouth shut.

    https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE

    Lawyer up and don’t compromise with the Alphabet bois.

  18. avatar Gordon in MO says:

    Quote from article: “The ATF may have just shot itself in the foot, so to speak. At the very least, they have given us that much more ammunition to demonstrate in court that their definitions are vague, inconsistent, arbitrary and capricious, far beyond the point of mere unconstitutionality.”

    You are trying to apply logic when logic does not apply anymore.
    The left owns the court system and they ignore the constitution. They will destroy it when they take full control, probably in January.

    Be Prepared !!!

    1. avatar Montana Actual says:

      2021 was a little sooner than I planned on dying, but hey it’s been a good run. If I take 20 commies with me it’ll be an even better run

  19. avatar Donkey Ears Obama says:

    ATF, FBI, CIA, and DOJ = ASS-holes

  20. avatar Will Drider says:

    The idiots at AFT have a consistent failure to comprehend what “Manufacturing” physically consists of. Recall a ATF Decision that stated shouldering a pistol with an installed pistol brace was manufacturing a NFA SBR. They backed of slightly and now its only manufacturing a NFA SBR if you fire from that position more than occasionally. ATF has not clarified how many times are requires to “manufacture”.

    Folks should remember the ATF Vs Thompson Center “Kit” Case they Lost. But, but, but there a SBR in every Kit. Nope, SCOTUS: Laws are ambiguous and capricious, Rule of Lenity in favor of defendant therefore aplied.

    Give every Juror a P80 Buy-Build-Shoot Kit and access to tools. Tell them to make it go bang! They can decide if its redialy assembled or not.

    1. avatar Ted P says:

      It is worse than that, In the affidavit , they admit that they directed a Ci, who is a convicted felon to purchase 2 kits, lie to polymer80 to purchase them, transport them to a field office AND COMPLETE ONE KIT IN THEIR PRESENCE, WITH HIS OWN TOOLS ! That is not legal for them to do ! They committed a felony by witnessing a convicted felon, at their direction, to complete a firearm. Once this was “complete”, even for 10 seconds, the felon was in possession of a firearm “frame” under their supervision.

  21. This is Biden’s pre-emptive strike so he can claim that he’s going after Ghost Guns. The comical part is that these idiots can’t even define what the hell a Ghost Gun is. Is it a gun that can’t be detected by a metal detector? Or is it a gun without an serial that supposedly can’t be tracked? The fact that a Poly80 can require significant gun smithing to work is irrelevant. These assholes want to get guns out of the hands of American Citizens hands as soon as possible regardless. Think about all the crooked shit taking place today, these dirty politicians as craping their pants at the thought of an armed and pissed population. The sooner they get the guns out of our hands the faster they can take all our freedoms away. These people are looking for compliant slaves to bleed with their endless taxes.

  22. avatar Ben Bow says:

    same thing they have been doing with MGs for years. Try having a Sten kit, a tube and a template. None of it cut, welded or usable. They have charged and convicted people for that. Whats the difference?

  23. avatar Geoff says:

    What Stupidity! The main component, the frame, is STILL INCOMPLETE!

  24. avatar Rob says:

    Atf affidavit is now available online. WSJ article. It seems polymer 80 submitted a request for review and was not approved but was asked for more info. Polymer 80 didn’t resubmit but instead started selling them. I get that from paragraph 42 to 45 of the application for the warrant. Polymer80.com has determination letters o. Their website for the earlier models but not the v2. Will be interesting to see how and why polymer80 failed to resubmit and obtain approval.

  25. avatar Ted P says:

    I have reviewed the affidavit for the warrant and think that ATFe might be in a little hot water on this one. One of the agents used an undercover name and location to purchase 2 kits and have them shipped to himself. This is fine. HOWEVER, then the agent directed a “Ci” to purchase 2 additional kits. The “Ci” in question, IS A CONVICTED FELON. The agents early on in the affidavit stated that they had to agree to the terms of sale. Part of that is that you affirm that you are not prohibited from owning firearms and that you will abide by ALL laws that may govern these kits. Then, it gets worse, the agents have the “Ci” take the kits to ATF field office and have the CONVICTED FELON COMPLETE THE FIREARM WITH HIS OWN TOOLS IN THEIR PRESENCE. An ATF agent IS NOT LEGALLY ALLOWED TO DIRECT A CONVICTED FELON TO COMPLETE AND POSSESS A FIREARM . The agent in question should be arrested and charged ! The only issue that polymer80 might have is that they shipped “high capacity” magazines to the agent by mistake prior to a judge striking down the California magazine restriction. Either way, i think that ATF is on shaky ground here.

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