BREAKING: ATF Raids Polymer80, Cracking Down on ‘Ghost Gun’ Build Kits

Polymer80 Buy Build Shoot kit

Courtesy Polymer80

Our friends at the ATF simply can’t wait for a Biden inauguration in January. They’ve been licking their regulatory chops, getting ready for crackdowns they’ve been planning on pistol braces and home build kits — alleged ghost guns — for months, anticipating a Trump defeat.

Now that it seems they’ll be getting the change of administrations they’ve been silently cheering on, they’re wasting no time. Yesterday ATF agents executed a raid on Nevada-based Polymer80, one of the largest makers of 80% lowers and pistol frames.

From the Wall Street Journal:

The raid target, Nevada-based Polymer80, is suspected of illegally manufacturing and distributing firearms, failing to pay taxes, shipping guns across state lines and failing to conduct background investigations, according to an application for a search warrant unsealed Thursday after the raid took place.

The probe focuses on Polymer80’s “Buy Build Shoot Kit,” which includes the parts to build a “ghost” handgun. The kit, which Polymer80 sells online, meets the definition of a firearm, ATF investigators determined according to the warrant application. That means it would have to be stamped with a serial number and couldn’t be sold to consumers who haven’t first passed a background check.

It appears that the ATF may have once again changed their definition of a firearm and now considers Polymer80’s Buy Build Shoot kit the equivalent of a firearm, requiring serialization and a transfer through an FFL.

The ATF previously gave Polymer80 permission to sell unfinished receivers. But the Buy Build Shoot Kits, which are advertised as having “all the necessary components to build a complete…pistol” weren’t submitted to the agency for approval, according to the application for the search warrant. These kits can be “assembled into fully functional firearms in a matter of minutes,” the warrant application says.

Uh huh. If there’s nothing in the box that’s legally a “firearm,” why submit it for approval? If the frame still qualifies under the ATF’s definition of an 80% firearm — with no serial number or transfer required — it’s not clear how selling the frame as part of a kit, along with the other parts necessary to complete a build, would change the legal status of the kit as a whole.

Then again, legal niceties have never been the ATF’s strong suit. They’ve shown themselves to be more than willing to change their definitions and rules on the fly, manufacturers and buyers be damned.

We’ve asked Polymer80 for a comment on yesterdays festivities, but have not heard back yet. This likely won’t be the last of these actions by the ATF as we get closer to regime change in D.C.

UPDATE Polymer80 has given TTAG the following statement:

Over the past few years, and at the present time, Polymer80 has had numerous contacts from federal, state, and local law enforcement officials across the country. In each such instance, when properly and lawfully so approached, Polymer80 has expended best efforts to fully cooperate with law enforcement. When and as appropriate, the company will continue to do so.

This practice is consistent with Polymer80’s hard-earned reputation as an industry leader and responsible corporate citizen. Indeed, the company takes its legal obligations seriously, just as it does its treasured and fruitful relationships with its customers and independent dealers.

In short, Polymer80 is committed to discharging all of its responsibilities and duties as to them, as well as vigorously protecting its rights under the law. We will continue to monitor all developments as they arise.


  1. avatar Dennis Sumner says:

    Anyone doubt what’s coming? Gonna be Ruby Ridge on a grand scale!

    1. avatar garyjou81 says:

      ….Especially with a Democrat AG!!!

    2. avatar I Haz A Question says:

      Sure glad I already bought/finished all my P80s. I had a feeling something like this was a future possibility. I still have one more unfinished “blank” frame in the safe for a future endeavor.

      I’m wondering if now’s the time to finally invest in the purchase of a quality 3D printer…

      1. avatar F. Warren Zevon says:

        Did you pay with a credit card?

        1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

          One, yes. The others were purchased in person from a small company in cash. In fact, all of my AR blanks and nearly all the P80s were purchased anonymously in person or via a friend who purchased and forwarded to me.

          Let’s remember, though, that the focus of this particular ATF raid was on the full P80 “Glock In A Box” kits, not the overall company itself and all previously approved blank frames. Let’s see how this issue progresses…

        2. avatar Alan says:

          You can bet they took the complete customer list. you can thank these companies for not purging these list knowing this would always be a possibility.

      2. avatar Chris says:

        Well now they know what you have 🙂

      3. avatar JC says:

        Did you have any of it shipped to your home address? Unfortunately, They will confiscate all of this companies records.

    3. avatar A says:

      It’s my understanding it’s the “complete” shoot kit at question here. The kits that come with barrels and slide and lower parts kit etc. The plain jane body only kits seem to be fine for right now. As is my understanding.

      1. avatar Specialist38 says:

        Which cannot be assembled into a functioning firearm until the purchaser does the work needed to assemble said parts.

      2. avatar Montana Actual says:

        Doesn’t matter. Two legal parts.

        1. avatar Michael says:

          I don’t think so. The frame must be finished to Operate the whole system no requirement to be a licensed FFL gunsmith manufacturer. The 1986 FFPA protects private as well as Commercial Companies. the bump fire trigger system by Franklin and the Surefire bump stock as well as the 80% lower kits was approved under Obama and this will end up overturned

          Trump will be inaugurated on 01/020/2020! besides Congress makes the law changes under the constitution, not rouge bureaucracies unelected and judges unelected, and D}:={emon-RAT RINORAT politicians who claim (lie) to be patriotic!

          This was an American Ingenuity slap in Obama’s face who lied for 8 years about not coming for us and our Bible-believing gun clinging Americans who with the Hilda Beast Clintons want the UNNWO Agenda 21 Chicom takeover of America by Disarming us first!

        2. avatar Umm . . . says:

          You seem to be agreeing with / expounding upon Montana Actual’s point. Why the “I don’t think so”?

    4. avatar Chained says:

      Should have happened years ago.

    5. avatar Law Abiding Citizen says:

      It sure will be, Marxists will use Agencies like the ATF to go after law abiding citizens trying to defend their 2nd. Admendment rights. We are on the verge of a 2nd. Civil War

      1. avatar Sam I Am says:

        “We are on the verge of a 2nd. Civil War”

        Technically, it would be the third.

        1. avatar SKP5885 says:

          Would you please expand on this comment for those of us who are not history buffs. Thank you!

        2. avatar Sam I Am says:

          “Would you please expand on this comment for those of us who are not history buffs. Thank you!”

          The “American Revolution” (“Revolutionary War”) pitted colonists against both the Regular Army, and Loyalists (colonists opposed to independence, loyal to the King). Citizens warring against other citizens constitutes a civil war. The war of secession (often called “the Civil War”), is considered by many scholars to be “the second American Revolution”. Another war between citizens, and between citizens and the government could be labeled “the third American Revolution”, i.e. civil war – citizens against citizens, citizens against government.

  2. avatar Asdf says:

    The ATF harassing companies doing legal business? Where have I heard that one before?

    1. avatar California Richard says:

      Sounds like the same ATF agent that went on the news and said airsoft toys could be easilly converted in to machine guns.:

    2. avatar Marcus says:

      Do you mean when they raided Ares Armor a couple of years back?

    3. avatar TheUnspoken says:

      Quick SB tactical, hide your tooling and fill your MFG plant and warehouse with home alone style defenses, before it is too late!

    4. avatar Rob says:

      They are desperate to sieg heil the new administration and avoid purges

      1. avatar Southern Cross says:

        Unless F-Troop prove themselves to their new masters they will have no reason to exist.

  3. avatar Shire-man says:

    Part X is legal.
    Parts Y are legal.
    Kit containing X+Y is illegal.
    Makes perfect sense.

      1. avatar guy says:

        Numbers are binary which may lead people to think of gender and are therefore hate speech.

      2. avatar Green Mtn. Boy says:

        Only a alphabet agency like the one involved could torcher the simple math and come up with 5

      3. avatar C says:

        I just checked the math………2+2 = chair.

    1. avatar John Miller says:

      and you would be wrong. Part X is legal in the fact that it is UNFINISHED! and therefore does not meet the qualifications to be considered a firearm. And before you start running your mouth the receiver has to be able to be assembled as it is into a firearm. Which in this case it clearly cannot be

  4. avatar Rick James says:

    Besides an unconstitutional raid, can someone explain what the difference is between 80%s or if a criminal simply were to grind off the SN from a tracking stand point?

    1. avatar The Crimson Pirate says:

      You have to do milling and drilling on an 80% to make it capable of receiving the rest of the parts.

      A criminal filing off a serial number has a complete gun already and as such it is subject to all of the federal, state, and local guns laws.

      An 80% is a vaguely firearm shaped hunk of metal or plastic that still needs 20% ot manufacturing process. It does not need a serial number and is not subject to gun laws, unless yu want to make all raw materials subject to such requirements.

      1. avatar Rando says:

        It is important to note that once it is machined it is subject to state/federal firearms laws. The federal laws just don’t require serial numbers for homemade firearms.

        So if you are a prohibited person, it is still illegal to possess a firearm (homemade or not).

      2. avatar Pb_fan59 says:

        Ok, let’s do the math on this one. Team SlowJoe ‘n’ Hoe figure they got 80% of the vote, and the ATF goes Rambo on an 80% manufacturer…. See any problems next month when they can show they got 100% of the vote… you know, with the magic of math, liberally applied?

      3. avatar DKW says:

        But what does that actually mean? Is it based on manhours expended vs what is remaining? number of steps left to complete vs what is completed? I think 80% is very ambiguous as to its meaning.

        1. avatar The Crimson Pirate says:

          That is up to the ATF. They have approved a number of 80% receivers and you may note that virtually all 80% receivers of whatever type on the market have the same things done and the same things not done to comply with existing ATF opinion.

        2. avatar Shire-man says:

          “80% receiver,” “80% finished,” “80% complete” and “unfinished receiver” are all terms referring to an item that some may believe has not yet reached a stage of manufacture that meets the definition of “firearm frame” or “receiver” according to the Gun Control Act (GCA). These are not statutory terms and ATF does not use or endorse them.

          Notice the last sentence.
          “We’re the ATF and we’ll fuck you up whenever we feel like it.”

        3. avatar Ing says:

          The catch-22 here is that ATF doesn’t abide by the actual statutory language either — they completely ignored it to redefine bump stocks as machine guns. Either way, everybody except the government agencies and their “progressive” cronies gets screwed.

    2. avatar The Crimson Pirate says:

      Let me take another stab at this as I don’t think my first response was as clear as it could have been.

      Guns are not tracked. They have a serial number and can be traced, sort of, which is a different thing than tracking.

      Things that are not guns are not required to have a serial number or be traceable. Guns made at home by an individual for their own use and not for sale are not required to have a serial number or be traceable.

      So an 80% receiver that I am completing at home for my own use is not a gun until I make it into one, according to ATF, and needs no serial number or trace-ability as I am not making it with the intention of selling it.

      A criminal filing off a serial number has a gun that was made by a licensed manufacturer for the purpose of sale and as such it has been serial numbered and is traceable. Destroying or altering that number is felony.

      1. avatar Ryno says:

        I haven’t been able to pay attention to a single thing you’ve posted. I keep getting distracted by the red camo 1911 in your avatar. Awesome piece.

    3. avatar Binder says:

      I can order 100 kits from polymer 80. Thinking FFL might become a little suspicious (unless he distributes for High point)

  5. avatar The Crimson Pirate says:

    In case I haven’t said it yet today FUCK THE ATF!

    I am not giving up or registering any of my legally aquired property.

    1. avatar Montana Actual says:

      I’m also not asking a state’s permission to carry

      1. avatar The Crimson Pirate says:

        I reasked for permission early in 2020. So it will be 2025 before I can say “Fuck Pennsylvania!” on that.

        1. avatar masonjarr85 says:

          Fuck pennsylvania in deed.. all of my ARs and Piztoloas are built off an 80% platform bc…FUCK PA

    2. avatar Arandom Dude says:

      At least they didn’t shoot the owner’s dog. For real though, the ATF should be defunded.

  6. avatar Montana Actual says:

    Let’s raid the ATF.

    Not even joking…

    Would they consider that a “kidnapping” plot?

    1. avatar Ed Schrade says:

      You would have thought that the truck load of fertilizer a few years back would have convinced them that the natives can become unhappy.

      1. avatar Miner49er says:

        Oh yeah, good one!

        Murdered babies in a daycare is just so hilarious! And patriotic!

        Pathetic losers.

        1. avatar Weapon of War says:

          Its ok if they are in a womb though? Fkn liberal twat. Go kill yourself.

        2. avatar Montana Actual says:

          I don’t think anyone was laughing, asshole. Nice try to twist this to fit your agenda though… As usual

  7. avatar Phantom30 says:

    Had the privilege of having six 80% receivers addressed to me sitting on the shipping dock ready for UPS pickup when ATF raided them last time. You get an ATF letter in the mail asking if you wanted to claim reimbursement for products confiscated. 80% Polymer reimbursed me directly. But your are still tagged. Also used to build FALs. They came with full automatic parts in the kits. FAL lower receivers came with spiked substitute parts installed. Not a problem unless you had a built FAL on the property. Then you were in violation of their law if you received them. The solution was to have the kits shipped to a friends house so you could separate the parts before you took the legal ones home.
    The real solution is to flush the system of corrupt officials what would create such policies and laws. As Geo Washington would say APPEAL TO HEAVEN, it still works.

  8. avatar Mudhunter says:

    We need a multi trillion dollar lawsuit against each individual at ATF for oppression under color of authority, major infringements on the 2nd, violation of oath, etc. Sue each agent into bankruptcy for their illegal activity.

    We need senators and congressmen to do similarly as we all have standing regarding an agency that is trying to regulate a right, and is null and void in the first place.

    1. avatar rt66paul says:

      Wake up! Very few elected representatives have our backs. Clinton threw away the working man’s party away by catering to the unemployable and transient workforce(really their masters). The Republican Party is their to put the working man in his place(at best, lower middle class), they may be the only winning game in town, but they will toss the 2nd out the window when it doesn’t buy them enough votes.
      Many Republicans would rather see a Communist Party lackey in power than to have Trump for another term. There is too much money to be made(for a while) as the CCPs loot our country and replace our manufacturing. Everything in China is subsidized. Those factories have been approved by the communist government, that is NOT capitalism. The importing of these products hurts any capitalist government. China can and does use their numbers against the free world, that has always been the plan.
      Both of our major parties sold out a long time ago.

  9. avatar Mad Max says:

    Chevron and Auer have to go.

    With them in place, the Administrative State can commit every offense against liberty that the Declaration of Independence accuses the King of Great Britian of.

    1. avatar Andrew Lias says:

      This COULD be a case where Chevron gets declawed some. I certainly hope it gets declawed. I see this one going to the Supreme Court quite frankly. It’s perhaps the most insane stance the ATF has taken in some time and that’s saying a lot.

  10. avatar Automatic Jack says:

    I don’t see how Joe Biden’s election has anything to do with this raid. President Trump has allowed ATF to do as it likes regarding bump stocks and pistol braces. Don’t look to him for help or support on 80% lowers.

    1. avatar Rusty - Always Carry - Chains says:

      If he truly supported the 2nd he would have caned the top four or five ATF managers in October and appointed a new acting head. ATF is like a badly behaved child, discipline and attention are frequently necessary.

    2. avatar HowlingGobshyte says:

      Fudds will do anything to simp for Trump, even if it comes to denying his piss poor 2A record.

    3. avatar Montana Actual says:

      “they’re not coming for me, they’re coming for you”

      So he does nothing, and will “concede”.

  11. avatar AlanInFL says:

    I can’t for ATFE to explain why they raided raw forging production plants. There goes the manufacturing base of America.

    The Chinese will probably make a killing on selling raw metal blanks to us because Slow Joe is getting a huge kick back.

  12. avatar LKB says:

    Shows the ATF’s true colors certainly. When the GOP takes the House back in 2022 they need to put a choke chain on it through budgetary items, and if we ever have another 2017 (only this time hopefully without a Paul Ryan throwing sand in the gears), euthanize this rogue agency entirely.

    Having said that . . . WTF was Polymer 80 thinking? They were already dancing right up to the line of what was legal, and marketing complete packages like it was doing was gratuitously poking the bear. Had they set their operations up to be a bit less “in your face” (e.g., just sell 80% blanks and jigs; leave it to others to sell the other fiddly bits) it would have it a lot harder for ATF to move against them. Now, they have given ATF the best possible test case that may torpedo 80% receivers entirely, and may well impact the online sales of complete uppers, etc.

    If they wanted to make a point legally, far better to have filed their own test case against the ATF (for example, for a declaratory judgment to 80% receivers are not firearms) in a friendly jurisdiction (e.g., Fort Worth division of NDTex., with appeal going to the Fifth Circuit). But now they are going to have to deal with it in a forum of ATF’s choosing, and fighting a defensive battle against Uncle Whisker is likely going to bankrupt the company.

    Not a particularly astute business plan, IMO.

    1. avatar Mike V says:

      Fuck that.

      Tired of being free also being “gratuitously poking the bear.”

    2. avatar uncommon_sense says:


      The fact that it is so difficult to predict what ATF will do — and thus business is so precarious — is precisely why fedzilla should dissolve the ATF (either legislatively or through the courts). The ATF’s track record seems to demonstrate the very definition of “arbitrary and capricious”.

      1. avatar LKB says:

        I do not disagree . . . the ATF has a long track record of taking one position, and then changing its mind and screwing those who acted in reliance on the ATF’s original position. (The sad saga of the Atkins Accelerator comes to mind.) That needs to change, either by legislatively castrating the ATF or by the courts getting rid of Auer/Chevron deference.

        However, until that happens, knowing the ATF’s proclivity to do crap like this, was it a smart move to offer “complete kits”? Legally, Polymer 88 ought to prevail, but by pushing things to the edges of the legal envelope in this fashion they have invited an expensive fight that they well might lose, especially given that the ATF now gets to choose the forum. I thus say it was not a wise business decision that is likely to wind up being counterproductive.

        Just because something may well be legal doesn’t mean it’s a smart move to do it. E.g., it’s legal for me to walk down dark streets in gangbanger territory in the middle of the night talking on my cell phone. Is is smart to do so? Of course not. Similarly, it’s perfectly legal for me to walk down Congress Avenue in Austin with a fully-papered suppressed SBR slung over my shoulder. Is it be a good idea to routinely do so, just because I can? Nope.

        1. avatar Office of the Election Fraud says:

          LKB ” When the GOP takes the House back in 2022 ”


          Yes because Republicans will have fixed the voting process by then.

          Democratic representation is done in the U.S. The Dems learn from their mistakes, and their cheating will included all ballot races by 2022. It was Republican legislators in Pennsylvania and Republican Office holders in Georgia that helped rig the election against their own voters.

          Republicans “We will just wait for the NEXT election, we are sure our votes will then count. Then we will stop this tyranny…tomorrow.”

          Not to mention citizenship for the 20 plus million illegals. The borders are once again being flooded with migrants looking to cash in on the amnesty.

          Conservatives fought to little. Conservatives found to late.

    3. avatar Frostbeard says:

      Then let’s have them raid all the places that sell lower parts kits for ar15’s as those are used to complete pistols and rifles.

      Yes, definitely need to then raid Home Depot for selling drills and other tools that could be used to manufacture weapons.

      Please, let’s stop conceding away our God-given rights to the whims of oppressive government agents.

    4. avatar Mudhunter says:

      Free citizens engaged in constitutionally protected business are not responsible for a rabid dog’s attack.

      Polymer 80 is just convenient for the jack boots at an extra constitutional agency that should be beheaded once and for all before they kill more innocent, peaceable citizens.

      1. avatar LKB says:

        Polymer80 isn’t “responsible” for the rabid dog’s attack, but they should have known that the dog was rabid with a history of attacking, especially if poked.

        Until you can get rid of the rabid dog (or at least make sure it is securely chained), it is a wiser course of action to keep a safe distance, rather than poke it.

    5. avatar Anymouse says:

      Poly80 has/had 3 product lines: complete guns (serialized/FFL transferred), kits with 80% frames, and 80% frames. I don’t think BATFE is going to be successful if the kits are using castings the ATF already ruled at 80%. Maybe they’re running into the same issues as SB- got approval for some items and assumed the rules applied to similar items. Regardless, their strategic plan my be successful if lack of product and legal fees kill Poly80 despite being legally dubious.

      1. avatar Joe says:

        They were after the customer list. They’ll be going house to house eventually.

    6. avatar Umm . . . says:

      Sorta like “WTF was she thinking? Being pretty and saying ‘no’, sure, but wearing pretty clothes too?!”

    7. avatar Andrew Lias says:

      The idea that selling parts with an 80% receiver someone is going to buy parts for and build into a pistol magically makes it not 80% is absolutely absurd. This is moving the target so you can put someone in jail or shut their business down.

  13. avatar enuf says:

    Sounds like Trump is getting even with gun people for not spending enough money on him. But then he never was a pro-gun guy, he only used us while he saw personal value in doing so.

    1. avatar jwm says:

      Says the guy that voted for the traitor biden.

      1. avatar tdiinva says:

        Maybe Enuf is one of Ms.Fang Fang conquests and he thought she would get him some Beijing Business.

    2. avatar Simple Mind says:

      Everything bad is because of Trump!

      1. avatar Ralph says:

        Well, Trump shot Kennedy from the Grassy Knoll in Area 51, didn’t he?

        1. avatar Miner49er says:

          No, Trump said Ted Cruz‘s father was responsible for killing Kennedy.

          You guys have got to get your conspiracy theories straight, they might be slightly more believable if they were somewhat more internally consistent.

      2. avatar HowlingGobshyte says:

        This is happening under Trumps watch. The ATF is under control of the executive branch via the DOJ. Trump is head of the executive branch. So yeah, this is Trumps fault.

        1. avatar HowlingGobshyte Part Deux says:

          A Special Counsel was appointed by the Deputy Attorney General to investigate the supposed collusion between Russia and the Trump Campaign under Trumps watch. The Deputy Attorney General is under control of the executive branch via the DOJ. Trump is head of the executive branch. So yeah, that was Trump’s fault. *sarcasm*

        2. avatar Jeffrey Crunk says:

          To say something happened on Trumps watch is ridiculous. Congress has done as it pleased, there goes the legislative branch. The court’s have done as they pleased, there goes the judicial branch. And Trump has never been in control over his own white house, due to all of the moles both in the wh itself, and all of the alphabet agencies like the fbi, cia, atf, etc. So there goes the executive branch. The word corruption doesn’t even begin to describe what has been happening in this country. You will see soon enough because they, and other’s will be unleashed in mass on the American public. I would hope that the businesses that have been supplying the 80% parts would purge all of their record’s, and that would allow some of those that have been supplied these parts, to be able to use them however it becomes necessary.

        3. avatar HowlingGobshyte says:

          So your argument is that Trump is absolutely incompetent then. Got it.

  14. avatar thomas says:

    Think the ATF was going for “intent” as they were sold with all the parts and intended to be made into a functioning gun. The kit even says “Buy Build Shoot Kit,”that is why some other 80% lower kit companies have moved away from offering the lower and drillbits in one kit.

    1. avatar Mike V says:

      And the intent to build your own gun is illegal?

      Constrained by logic seems to be our faulty process that they run rings around.

  15. avatar Debbie W. says:

    If there are not other such raids going on then perhaps there are other factors involved. If not and the reason is for a photo op or 1/4 inch worth if barrel length then the ATF assumes the roll of criminals and the citizenry upholds the law. It’s not just Black Americans who have a bone to pick with certain knuckleheads who give law enforcement a bad name.

  16. avatar Mudhunter says:

    Shall not be infringed means WHAT THE GOVERNMENT MAY NOT DO.

    Stomping all over a right is beyond minor infractions. Congress needs to make their budget zero, and give all employees a bad recommendation for future employment.

    Anyone working for this agency knows they are in violation of the constitution. If they don’t, that’s on them. When you swear to uphold and protect the constitution, you better know the history behind said constitution and what it means.

  17. avatar Mr. Tactical says:

    This is a prime example of our legal system being weaponized against us. It doesn’t need to be illegal to be effective. All they have to do is drag it out in court and bankrupt them. The government after all has unlimited access to our money which can be used against us.

    1. avatar Montana Actual says:

      This. Regardless of what happens 5 years from now when the court finally makes a decision, that company will already be destroyed.

  18. avatar Darkman says:

    Until to cost for Politicians and Government Bureaucrats reaches a point they can no longer bear. The Infringement on Our Rights will continue. What that cost may be and how it is dealt is a decision each citizen must determine. Whether they be Patriot or Subject. Keep Your Powder Dry.

  19. avatar FedUp says:

    In a just world, a United States Attorney would be scurrying to issue arrest warrants for a bunch of BATFE employees right about now.

    1. avatar FedUp says:

      Alternative theory:

      The Biden Transition has already met with BATFE, and BATFE is acting under an Executive Order that hasn’t been issued yet, which will declare 80% to be firearms and retroactively justify this week’s BATFE activities.

      1. avatar HowlingGobshyte says:

        Alternate alternate theory: Trump is still head of the DOJ and could just as easily dismiss the case via EO and direct the dept to drop the case, but won’t, because he’s not actually pro 2A and o ly uses gun owners as a tool for political maneuvering, just like the NRA.

        1. avatar Miner49er says:


        2. avatar Mike V says:

          Obviously wrong if Miner concurs.

          Trump was never one of us for us…just another set of pros and cons and the ever present danger of the other guy winning situation. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn’t.

          There will be no public sympathy for 80s, like bumpstocks. We are on our own.

  20. avatar Elmer Fudd says:

    My marijuana bootlegging tenants’ marijuana bootlegging grandson was misrepresented by their scum sucking whore of a defense attorney as a “gun expert” in a criminal trial. My marijuana bootlegging tenant had fired two rounds from a 12 gauge shotgun at my son in retaliation for efforts to evict them for using my property for a massive, unlicensed marijuana grow that was illegal under Oregon law as well as Federal law. Observations by the victims strongly suggest that he was firing slugs. This gun experts’ claim to expertise was that he had been in the USMC (discharged because of traumatic brain injury that resulted in disability), had worked as a clerk at a gun shop (until he was fired after massive numbers of guns and gun parts were stolen), and “builds guns” (using parts stolen from his former employer) and selling the guns he built (without an FFL, background checks or record keeping, to known felons who were prohibited from buying or owning a firearm). This marijuana bootlegging “gun expert” testified that my marijuana bootlegging tenant could not have been firing slugs from his allegedly antique “Remington 870 shotgun” (first Remington shotgun was the 1873, conflated with the Remington 870 that he routinely keeps by the front door) because it allegedly had a choke (first commercially available shotgun with a choke was manufactured by W W Greener in 1876 IIRC). Attempting to fire a slug through a shotgun with a choke would allegedly cause the barrel to explode just like happens to Elmer Fudd when Buggs Bunny sticks a carrot in the muzzle of his shotgun. (Any Elmer Fudd can explain to the new generation of TactiCoolFools that both the Breneke Slug and the Foster Slug were specifically designed to be fired through a choked barrel. That is what the ribs are for. They can easily deform to enable the slug to swag down from the nominal . 729″ bore diameter of a 12 gauge to the . 690″ diameter of the slug body.)

    While this TactiCoolFool testified under oath that he was committing multiple Federal felonies, he wasn’t arrested and prosecuted. Perhaps the BATF should be prosecuting this ass hole rather than manufacturers of parts kits?

  21. avatar WARFAB says:

    New for 2021: Polymer70 pistol and rifle kits.

    1. avatar Montana Actual says:

      Polymer 85.

  22. avatar Duane says:

    Are we being spoofed only one news source no other stories out there can’t find any legal documents.

    Inquiring minds want to know.

    1. I’ve been in contact with Polymer80 this morning. The raid happened and they issued the statement I’ve added to the end of the post, above.

      1. avatar Mike V says:

        Worthless lawyer speak statement.

      2. avatar Schwerpunkt says:


        In the “Gunsmith Information” document (5020300:CLO), from the Department of the Treasury, Alcohol & Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau, on page 3, under “ATTACHMENT OF TAX” (regarding the Federal Firearms and Ammunition Excise Tax, or FAET) the last two bullet points state:

        “- It should be noted that FAET applies to the sales of (bold)complete firearms(end bold). A frame or receiver for a firearm is not a complete firearm and is not subject to FAET.

        – However, a manufacturer who sells a firearm in knockdown condition, which is complete as to all component parts, will be liable for FAET. Liability for FAET will be incurred whether the component parts are sold in one transaction or a series of separately invoiced transactions.”

        Completely ignoring the 80% and manufacturing angles, the slippery slope for me is “failing to pay taxes” on the warrant. If the raid had been conducted by Department of the Treasury…MAYBE (SOLELY based on the previous quoted text). But what’s next? The ATF enforcing ITAR registration and fees for 01 FFL applicants performing gunsmithing activities? Jurisdiction, anyone?

  23. avatar Arc - The Annoying One says:

    This is why we have election fraud, because the prize of controlling the federal beast is so great. If the federal government and it’s agencies had no power, and must ask the consent of the people for personnel, funding, and legal authority, every time they wish to do something, authority that is always sunset, there would be no fraud. Trying to own the federal government would be more trouble than it’s worth.

    Every party has weaponized the federal government and it’s endless agencies, feeding it more and more power every election cycle and now we have this; unconstitutional agencies raiding the people who are conducting lawful business. The beast serves it’s own interests now.

  24. avatar Sam I Am says:

    The punishment is the ride. Govt agencies can do anything they want….anything, without consequence*. Object? “Sue me !”

    The ride is the punishment. Death of a thousand cuts.

    *Once in a blue moon, a low level “agent” (employee) of government might be held accountable, but no government agency has ever been abolished as a result of malfeasance.

  25. avatar SNEAKY WHITE 13 says:

    I see the bridge in Concord…..

  26. avatar J. Smith says:

    Oh well, slo joe and hoe are coming to town, Im gonna start selling all my weapons of war while prices are good, i want to make sure i comply ahead of time so i can snitch out all my neighbors and friends later.

    Sarc….i guarantee a majority of gun owners out there right now are saying this or similar to themselves. If your worried that you bought a p80 with a credit card, you have already lost and have been cucked by probably too much mask wearing. If law enforcement is illegitimate and enforces with force unconstitutional or illegal color of law garbage, they are criminals. 18 USC, Section 242. A few 1,000 military tribunals will clear this right up.

    Maybe ya’ll want to pick up a copy of “Saving The Constitution”, or “The Liberty Series by Dr. Proctor, of the Provis Institute and learn the actual constitution to defend yourself.

    Dr. Proctor speaks on the Hagmann Report every week, you can listen in case of illiteracy or brain damage due to too much CO2 from your wearing a mask all day like a good little boys and girls.

    Take all the gates eugenics vaccines also.

    Wonder how all these deep state scum exist, and going along with the chicom take over? the OPM hack, china has all the info they need on everyone with any clearance, and apparently they’re using it. As well as Epstein and crew, who didn’t kill himself, BTW.

    Happy 2021! Im sure it will get better, keep hanging on to hope, and living in fear, you’re much easier to control that way.

  27. avatar Redstateredneck says:

    Interesting… ATF could have solved this issue with a letter or a phone call. Yet instead they raid a law abiding business. Intent was pure intimation, enough said.

    1. avatar Mike V says:

      That was my thought, why a raid? Seems like the kind of thing a pair of civilized types could resolve with conversation.

      Of course, there’d be no excuse to shoot the dog on the way to the back office that way so, maybe not.

      1. avatar Sam I Am says:

        “That was my thought, why a raid?”

        Two reasons: general intimidation by government; illustration that guns, gun manufacturers, gun sellers, gun owners are potentially dangerous terrorists who will shoot back, requiring armed attack to subdue.

        1. avatar Mike V says:

          Aren’t we lucky.

          Second class right I guess.

        2. avatar Sam I Am says:

          “Second class right I guess.”

          Second class citizen, you are.

    2. avatar joe says:

      They wanted customer lists. A letter or phone call would have given time to delete them.

  28. avatar Mike says:

    I feel an unfortunate boating accident coming on.

    1. avatar Mike V says:

      I dunno, if ya have to “lose” them…maybe it’s too late.

  29. avatar busybeef says:

    Why on earth would you buy a P80 kit for hundreds of dollars when you can 3d print a Glock, Hi-Power, PPK, Tek-9, AR or AK lower for literal cents.

    1. avatar uncommon_sense says:


      And that magical 3-D plastic printer doesn’t cost several hundred dollars?

      More importantly, will a 3-D plastic printed firearm receiver be anywhere near as strong — and hence as safe and durable — as a firearm receiver milled from a solid block of polymer?

      1. avatar 61north says:

        The printers can be bought for just under $200. It’s true that the 3D printed parts are not as durable as the factory parts, but they have repeatedly been shown to last for several thousand rounds. And if they wear out or break, you just print another one. You can even mill and rifle your own barrels using electro – chemical machining which produces barrels about as accurate as factory barrels. Folks are also 3D printing bullet molds, fire control groups, and working on recipes for powder. Still work to be done on casings and primers, though. Go to for the details.

  30. avatar Ralph says:

    ATF should crack down on George Soros because of his “Build Your Own Politician” kits. I’m not sure about this, but I think that Kim Gardner has an 80% lower.

  31. avatar Nick johnson says:

    In case you didn’t know… the ATF can and will do whatever it wants to and to say anything it wants to also changing any so called law it made illegally in the fist place … The ATF story from the beginning as a whole is very concerning!
    And we allow it all …

  32. avatar Tom dongfellow says:

    The mental gymnastics you have to go through to blame this on biden is absolutely amazing. And the comments are just as dumb as I hoped for. Brilliantly stupid writing there sport….

    1. avatar Mike V says:

      He didn’t.

      He blamed the ATF.

      He speculated that the ATF was glad for a change of administrations, presumably because they won’t have to worry about losing their jobs by doing things the article lays out.

      And Biden supports the banning of home built guns.

      Your analysis fails entirely, take the mask off when you’re alone in mommies basement.

  33. avatar some guy says:

    Wait Trump didn’t stop this? Hmmm….

  34. avatar Serpent_Vision says:

    Perhaps the ATF’s view is that, sold as a kit, the firearm is more than 80% complete, since no work is required on the components other than the 80%-machined receiver/frame?

    1. avatar Mike V says:

      The proximity of the parts matters?

      An AR lower receiver is a firearm regardless if it’s populated or unpopulated, or near or far from the parts that could populate it.

      A unfinished chunk of aluminum or plastic not defined as a firearm can not be a firearm just because there’s a bag of parts next to it.

      Besides, why does intent matter at all, people are allowed to intentionally home build their guns. Obviously the materials have to come from somewhere.

      1. avatar SR boyd says:

        I always read the comments to any story like this to confirm just how the collective imagination is running. Seizing kits that are essentially putting crude but deadly weapons ‘out there” are always the lowest hanging fruit. The ATF is just another bunch of bureaucrats that want to excercise power and control, and the more you say no, the harder they will push. The comments that it will be another Ruby Ridge or Civil War are stupid, and nothing positive can be gained from calling out the ATF for appeasing the gun controllers or taking steps to limit illegal handguns from being created without recognition bases we all agree are foolish. Diligence world both ways. It’s always better to keep stupidity from being the one take away From an otherwise reasonable discussion, and little good can come from comments that are neither funny nor intelligent, even if they are true. Fanning the flames might get you burned, but little else, so why bother? As long as their power to restrict freedoms under the 2nd Amendment exists, they should be given grudging respect, but little else. Abiding by the law will change from time to time, but it is always your obligation to respect and follow the law, even if you think it’s wrong. I wish everyone a great Christmas and the very best and happy 2021!

    2. avatar Mudhunter says:

      Actually the slide is not assembled either. There is not any thing that isn’t broken down to its smallest component other than the trigger assembly. The rest of the gun isn’t just slapped together, there is fitting and checking. Its more than a 30 minute process. Just like any hobby it takes a lot of time, study and knowledge.

  35. avatar Robert R says:

    i don’t have any P80’s but i do have several 1911 all were 80% except one and it was issued in WW2 and never registered so they can just get bit –i have several weapons that have never been registered and i never will and if they come on my property I will shoot them since my property in texas is labeled alredy that deadly force will be used against trespassers.

  36. avatar Mark Smith says:

    So ATF says a bunch on non-firearm parts can be classified as a firearm. PROTEST: why doesn’t everyone put together a bunch of parts and send to the ATF for a letter asking if it is a firearm or not. Maybe after a few dozen, hundred, or thousands of “parts kits” letter requests they might decide to back off.

    1. avatar Chained says:

      That’s the only way they will back off is if we ALL contest their actions and rulings. We have been way too soft on all these alphabet agencies violating our rights.

  37. avatar Daniel Starnes says:

    I have read the Second Amendment several times. It States that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall NOT be infringed. Nothing is is referring to the ATF&E . I don’t think they were even thought of at the writing of the Second. . It don’t mention hunting or recreation shooting.
    I understand it to mean we the people are allowed to own the military arms of out time.
    The only problem with that is the un-American politicians that want to control us from the womb to the tomb.
    this is NOT the American way.

  38. avatar Chained says:

    Did the ATF not declare just a year or so ago after an arrest of a man in Commiefornia was falsely accused of manufacturing firearms but was actually instructing people how to mill an 80% lower that an 80% lower is not a firearm and needs much work to make it functional? Now all the sudden they got a bug up their asses about them being firearms? If Biden and Harris are behind it, they have no authority as they are not even in office yet. Where the hell is Trump and Barr? Where is the law declaring unfinished lowers as firearms? Last I checked only congress makes law not the BATFE. The ATF needs disbanded.

    1. It’s actually better than that. They said if you complete an 80% lower you haven’t manufactured a gun because an AR lower receiver doesn’t meet the definition of a receiver so it can’t be a gun. Under the US Code of Federal Regulations, a firearm receiver is defined as: “That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel.” In an AR, the bolt is in the upper receiver.

      There is no definition for which part of the AR-15 is the gun. Their definition of a receiver is spread across both the upper and lower receivers. With the vast number of unserialized upper receivers out there, changing the definition isn’t likely.

      There are two cases in Federal courts, 2016 and 2019, both of which ruled that a completed AR lower is not a firearm. The feds dropped those cases because they’re afraid all their laws will collapse if the word gets out.

      I’m not familiar with the Polymer80 pistols, but I think a lawyer could argue a striker fired pistol doesn’t have a hammer or a bolt so those 80% guns aren’t really guns when they’re completed, either.

  39. avatar Yando hillman says:

    If you disarm the free folk, you disarm the resistance. Look at the faces of the left. No smiles unless they get what they cheat for. The atf doesn’t have anything to do with making or changing constitution law. They are like big tech media. They will destroy all you have. The swamp includes the atf. Their loophole? Red flag laws. There’s 80 million of us. Way more the the atf. Stand up and speak loudly.

  40. avatar Alan says:

    Pardon my for asking, but I wonder as to when if ever members of The Congress will tire of the ATF and it’s ongoing shanagans. Additionally, regarding the multi million entirely law abiding gun owners, citizens of this country, when will they wake up, smell the coffee, and start climbing on their elected reps., Members of Congress and U.S. Senators, urging them to check the ongoing antics of this run away mob, our very own ATF, aka BATFE. By the way when if ever might The Feds actually take on the armed criminals that trouble society, prosecuting them to the full extent of the law, as that old saying goes. No “deals”, no plea bargains.

  41. avatar Red in CO says:

    Impossible. I’ve been hearing for years that 99% of cops are good people who will 100% stand up for the rights of the citizenry against the government. So many people have told me
    that that they can’t possibly all be lying right?


  42. avatar Hannibal says:

    “Our friends at the ATF simply can’t wait for a Biden inauguration in January…”

    It’s always amusing how partisan logic “works”.

    It’s Trump’s executive branch. The very same one that went after bump-stocks on his orders using the exact same BS methods (definitions) years ago.

    Remember the line “the buck stops here” that Truman had on his desk? Why does the buck NEVER stop with Trump?

    1. avatar Sam I Am says:

      “Why does the buck NEVER stop with Trump?”

      Trump never claimed to be a 2A zealot. Trump never claimed a desire to renew the useless, purposeless, failed AWB. Trump never attempted to support legislation to come and get our guns (see: Beto promise). Trump never endorsed media claims that gun owners were a danger to the republic. Trump never moved to have the Second Amendment declared a second class right. And so much more.

      However, I do agree that Trump allowed himself to be controlled in areas where he should have struck hard, and situations where he should have hauled appointees into the oval, and demanded they follow his lead, or leave. That failure is Trump’s alone.

  43. avatar SK Skeeter says:

    The middle finger to the tyrants at the ATF. There is no up to the line. Something is either legal or it is not. They are law enforcement not feeling enforcement. I hope this goes to the Supreme post haste and they get stomped in the nuts.

    F them and the horse they rode in on.

    Individual lawsuits for each agent on the raid and any support staff or supervisor who help plan or manage it.

    They are full the f**k of s**t. Eat a d**k with two slices of bread Alphabet bois.

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