The ATF Austin Office out on the range today with special guests from our local U.S. Attorneys’ Offices. pic.twitter.com/568GrEEHLG
— ATF Houston (@ATFHou) July 19, 2023
A field division of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) received criticism over a photo posted to Twitter showing a potentially unsafe gun fail.
The photo, which appeared in a tweet posted by the ATF‘s Houston division was roasted by several users on Twitter, who pointed out that it was an unsafe gun practice to point a gun towards someone’s crotch as they are loading the magazine.
The three most important rules when handling a firearm are to keep the gun pointed in a safe direction, keep your finger off the trigger unless you are ready to shoot, and keep the gun unloaded until you are ready to use it, according to National Rifle Association.
“You idiots are in charge of policing our firearms???” Abby Libby, a podcast host, questioned in a tweet. …
“Whenever I go shooting, I too load my magazines while standing down range & with my OPEN BOLT machine guns pointed straight at me,” Aidan Johnston, the director of Federal Affairs for Gun Owners of America, said in a post on Twitter.
— Elizabeth Weibel in ‘You Idiots Are in Charge of Policing Our Firearms?’: ATF Roasted for Potentially Deadly Gun Safety Fail
Was at a range and the RSO checked the gun while it was pointed at his coworker’s junk. While lecturing me about safety.
At most ranges however you’d be read the riot act about where the dangerous end was pointing or not pointing.
برای استفاده از نرم افزار دبیرخانه رایگانفقط کافیه به سایت یار سر بزنی
They never claimed to know anything about firearms………just how to keep em away from us!!
Atf huh? He’s just practicing for the next Waco🙄😕
he wants to change both his religion and gender very soon.
This exactly!
This isn’t the exception. It’s the norm.
The left loves to tell us how we need ‘training’ before we carry a gun in public. These guys get training and are still keystone cops not much better than the NFAC. There might be gun guys sprinkled around a little but most of them are just paid gofers carrying guns taking orders. That IS why SWATTING is a thing.
Public Servants with guns. What could go wrong?
Y’all got yer panties in a wad over this?
Every gun show I’ve ever been to has literally hundreds of weapons laying on tables while thousands of people walk by those muzzles.
It seems the gun dealers and patrons at the gun show are as irresponsible as these ATF agents, more so because of the scale/frequency of their safety violations.
Or is it the fact that the dealers/patrons at the gun show get a pass while we hold their political opponents to a higher standard?
https://money.cnn.com/2015/10/26/news/gun-show/index.html
I’m not worried about being muzzled by a gun as it sits on a table or in a glass case. That would be stupid. Guns are not going to fire themselves. For you to suggest they do is equally stupid.
The problem is when someone is handling it.
Every gun show around here has a “safe direction” established before the show, usually the back of the venue. Then every muzzle in the place is pointed that way on the tables, and if you want to look down sights you only point up. So no, you moron, gun shows are not more unsafe than this guy with a gun that we peasants can’t own.
No that is not the case, at least not in the Texas shows. Just not practical with so many sizes and numbers.
They use zip ties to keep the gun safe and no open ammo boxes.
You can make safe decisions for these sorts of things if you use some common sense.
No need to name call ST, doesn’t look good.
“Every gun show around here has a “safe direction” established before the show, usually the back of the venue“
Interesting, how does that work with multiple rows of tables? Hilarious.
The fact is, if you lay a firearm across a table, with people on either side be it attendees or dealers, someone’s crotch is being muzzled continuously.
But I’ve never heard any outrage from you folks about that, again, why the different standard for ATF agents versus gun show dealers/attendees?
The atf agent was handling live ammo on a hot range, duh. Are you really that stupid miner or you just had to rush in and troll the site?
“Interesting, how does that work with multiple rows of tables… The fact is, if you lay a firearm across a table, with people on either side be it attendees or dealers, someone’s crotch is being muzzled continuously.”
If all the tables run length-wise North-South then the guns are laid North-South with the muzzle to the north. If you want to be a hardass about it, you have them all face the same direction, North for instance, and you set up the tables so that on the North side there is no aisle for people to walk.
No one’s getting their crotch muzzled unless they basically actively try to make this so. Arms, maybe, if they reach across the table while a gun is being picked up. Safety can be further enhanced with zip ties (or locks) run through the action of the firearms in question to ensure the action stays open or at least cannot fully close and seat if someone sticks a round in the gun. This is a common practice at gun shows.
I’ll go out on a limb and guess that you didn’t do well in high school geometry when fancy terms like “parallel” and “perpendicular” were bandied about and I’ll further guess that you’ll lie about how well you handled that class if questioned on the topic.
The problem is you never get in front of a loaded or unloaded gun or rifle EVER
“Or is it the fact that the dealers/patrons at the gun show get a pass while we hold their political opponents to a higher standard?”
Liar69er, lying again. You have to go back to 2015 for a slanted CNN diatribe against gun shows: “The thing is, Pennsylvania law doesn’t require unlicensed dealers to ask buyers of rifles or shotguns for identification. So some show purchases in Pennsylvania can be made without the seller knowing whether the buyer is from out of state.”
That’s a lie. Current PA gun sale law:
(c) Duty of other persons.–Any person who is not a licensed importer, manufacturer or
dealer and who desires to sell or transfer a firearm to another unlicensed person shall do so
only upon the place of business of a licensed importer, manufacturer, dealer or county sheriff’s office, the latter of whom shall follow the procedure set forth in this section as if he were the seller of the firearm.” — https://av.pasenategop.com/brochures/gunlaws.pdf
Lying liar, Liar69er, why are you lying again?
“You have to go back to 2015 for a slanted CNN diatribe against gun shows“
No need for your extensive rant, the reason I included the link is because if you scroll down you’ll see a picture of multiple rifles laying on the table with muzzles directed at the attendees.
“I’m not worried about being muzzled by a gun as it sits on a table“
So then what is the problem with the two ATF agents in the photo? Both are loading magazines, neither has a gun in their hands pointed at anyone.
If the problem is the MP 40 on the table, then one would have to find fault every time a firearm is laid on the table where folks can wander by in front of the muzzle, just as gun shows do.
I’m sure some gun shows require a zip tie in the trigger guard through the ejection port, etc. but that certainly isn’t the rule.
Again, why the different standard for the ATF agent versus Gunshow dealers/attendees?
“…the reason I included the link is because if you scroll down you’ll see a picture of multiple rifles laying on the table with muzzles directed at the attendees.”
And you had to go back to 2015 to find it, Liar69er.
Just like you had to go back to 2017 to find an incident where someone was injured at a gun show.
Range = live ammo being loaded/handled. Gun show table = not.
So, MajorLiar, show us your evidence that the ATF idiots in question had disabled those guns. Oh, you don’t HAVE any evidence that they did??? Quelle surprise!!!1
You are consistent, MajorClown, in that your stupidity is omnipresent in every comment you make. It would be interesting, if you are actually capable, to see a SENTIENT MajorLiar comment for a change.
Do better. Oh, I forgot; you are incapable.
Did you happen to notice the zip ties on the firearms in question? Did you also notice that the ATF photo was a live fire range?
You and little d sure go to a lot of gun shows.
You guys must be like 85.
Or, Occam’s Razor suggests that they are just idiot liars, typing on their mommies’ computers from the basement where they live because they are unemployed.
Doesn’t deserve a response.
“Every gun show I’ve ever been to has literally hundreds of weapons laying on tables while thousands of people walk by those muzzles.”
In all these hundred of weapon you claimed to have seen at gun shows:
1. How many of them were in loaded use or could be loaded with live ammo before they were laid on, or while on, gun show tables for display?
2. How many were allowed to be loaded with live ammo while placed on those gun show tables?
3. How many were available to be freely picked up and loaded with live ammo laying on the same table?
4. How many were laying on tables in gun shows in live fire areas with active firing in progress where they could be intermingled with loaded firearms?
I’m pretty sure, once again, you don’t understand what ‘context’ means.
laying out firearms in a live fire area with ammo laying around and multiple people being able to intermingle the firearms with no real assurances that any of them are actually cold (not ammo in them) like that in the ATF twitter post – you never saw that at a gun show so quite trying to liken the two to show a false equivalency.
As to your last paragraph: that Baldwin moron is a shining example of this type of negligence and/or ignorance. The long-established safe handling “rules” got a bit Rusty, so to speak.
I’ve been working gun shows for 40-some years and only once has there ever been a “bang”. That was a blank in some sort of obsolete military signaling device and it got the dealer ejected from the promoter’s shows for 2 years.
“RALEIGH, N.C. — Officials said the Dixie Gun and Knife Show will continue Sunday without private gun sales after three people, including a retired sheriff’s deputy, were injured Saturday when a gun brought in by a patron who planned to sell it accidentally discharged.”
“DENVER — A shooting at the Denver Mart’s Tanner Gun Show sent one man to the hospital and left another in handcuffs.
Investigators said a vendor was setting up their space, a gun accidentally discharged and the bullet hit another employee. The employee who was shot is expected to be OK.”
“RALEIGH, N.C. — Officials said the Dixie Gun and Knife Show will continue Sunday …”
Jan 19, 2013
“DENVER — A shooting at the Denver Mart’s Tanner Gun …”
July 16, 2017
“There have been plenty of people shot at gun shows, some through carelessness and some through crime.”
If four is “plenty,” then you’re all set.
It’s interesting that you have to go back so far to find a couple of isolated incidents to illustrate your lie that incidents like these happen all the time.
“1. How many of them were in loaded use or could be loaded with live ammo before they were laid on, or while on, gun show tables for display?“
Unbelievable, you’re cracking me up!
Once you’ve been around firearms a little more, you’ll come to learn one of the most important rules of gun safety:
‘Treat every firearm as if it’s loaded.’
“2. How many were allowed to be loaded with live ammo while placed on those gun show tables?“
See above
“3. How many were available to be freely picked up and loaded with live ammo laying on the same table?”
Every single one of them, all you need is a couple loaded magazines in your pocket, it would be the matter of one to two seconds to insert a magazine, chamber a round and express your dissatisfaction immediately.
Zip tie you say… Snip, snip.
There have been plenty of people shot at gun shows, some through carelessness and some through crime.
“DENVER — A shooting at the Denver Mart’s Tanner Gun Show sent one man to the hospital and left another in handcuffs.
Investigators said a vendor was setting up their space, a gun accidentally discharged and the bullet hit another employee. The employee who was shot is expected to be OK.
Witnesses said the accidental shooting happened around noon Saturday“
I was actually at the Raleigh show when that happened working it they’ve since changed their policies it didn’t accidentally discharge. The trigger was pulled by the guy as he was taking it out of the bag. He was bringing it over to sell on behalf of one of his buddies and like an idiot, didn’t bother to check to see if it was loaded or not.
“Witnesses said the accidental shooting happened around noon Saturday“
January 13, 2013. Why don’t you date-stamp your citations?
“A man identified as Gary Lynn Wilson, 36, of Wilmington, brought the 12-gauge shotgun to the show at the North Carolina State Fairgrounds and was attempting to remove it from its case when the weapon went off shortly after 1 p.m., police said.
“Linwood Hester, 50, of Durham, was struck in the left hand by birdshot, according to Joel Keith, police chief with the state Department of Agriculture. The birdshot also struck a woman identified as Janet Hoover, 54, of Benson, and Jake Alderman, a retired sheriff’s deputy from Wake Forest who was working at the event.”
@Miner49er
You said …
“Every gun show I’ve ever been to has literally hundreds of weapons laying on tables while thousands of people walk by those muzzles.” … trying to create a false equivalence with ATF blatant safety issue.
and now you want to point out a single accident of some one carrying a gun into a gun show and it not being on display yet to continue to try to push a false comparison to protect the image of your beloved ATF.
seriously, stop being such a joke and learn what ‘context’ means and stop reading with confirmation bias.
“every single one”, is disengenous in presentation and flat out false.
once again, learn what ‘context’ means and stop being confirmation biased.
minor49iq…Gun Shows have rules where firearms are cleared and have zip ties, locks, etc. Off course when picking any fire up anywhere you first verify it cleared or look incompetent not doing so and look more incompetent if you allow the business end to point in the direction of others while inspecting the firearm, etc. And of course you do not stand in front of an operable firearm at any time to perform a task, etc. Ever.
The range protocol where I go is unloaded, bolts open and everyone steps away from the bench while someone goes down range to change targets, etc. When that individual returns and is behind the bench then and only then do others proceed. As range master in a rural private setting I see to it and everyone else does too that everyone goes home in the same condition they arrived come hell and high water.
Frankly the atf needs to be defunded if all they are good for is going after citizens owning firearms while dangerous criminals are out doing the crimes and Not the time.
MajorLiar,
If you didn’t have anything stupid to say, would you still say something stupid?
At every gun show I’ve been to (and I suspect I may have been to a few more than your lying self), display guns are always presented with the bolt/chamber open (so you can visually verify an empty chamber as you walk toward it, if you are possessed of this thing called ‘situational awareness’), but many of them have rules requiring display guns to be rendered unshootable (usually, removing the firing pin). My favorite local gun store (before I moved out of KKKalifornia) used to require anyone entering the store with a gun (like, for example, to obtain some gunsmithing services) to expose the gun visibly disabled (i.e., if it was a bolt action, with the bolt visibly separated from the gun). ‘Sweeping’ the guy behind the counter got your thrown out, IMMEDIATELY.
I am fully capable of evaluating my safety in a gun show, a range, or wherever. A valuable skill; you should learn it. On the other hand, I am not, unlike you, an ignoranus, so I have that capability. Sucks to be you, dunnit???
Not everyone is as stupid and uneducated as your miserable self, or your circle jerk buddy, dacian the demented. Some of have embraced our sentiience. Others, like you and dacian the demented, have aggressively fought against any sign of sapience in your world. “Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, boy.”
But you do you, MajorLiar. And we will treat your ‘comments’ with exactly as much respect as they deserve. You’re welcome, @$$clown.
Since you are a BRITISH SUBJECT, “YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN TO A GUNSHOW” in your life..
Stop the BS’ing!!!
Why, when holding a dog and pony show with “special guests from our local U.S. Attorneys’ Offices”, would you need to be wearing full gear like you would when shooting someone’s dog or breaking down the door of the home of a kitchen table FFL?
Because it looks so tacticool.
If I was forced to be around that bunch of incompetent @$$clowns, I’d wear body armor, too.
So what’s the problem?
The BATFE agents is standing with the muzzle of a full auto machinegun pointed at his crotch. Fortunately; any injury from an accidental discharge would be inconsequential because BATFE agents have no testicles much less a penis.
And that ladies and gentlemen is all she wrote. Love it.
Considering that it was an AFT agent – I don’t think it would be a great loss if they couldn’t reproduce.
Haha Elmer Fudd. At the place where I work, twice the gov’t twits left their loaded firearms in the washroom stall after doing their business. One didn’t know or was sweating for a whole day before we clued him in. Naturally, the upper ups hushed it up. They prolly got a “Don’t do that again” from the boss, in Three Stooges Joe Besser style. Truly they are heroes. Haha.
The thing that gets me is those weapons were most likely confiscated from a WW2 veteran or veterans. We have an original MP-40 and an original M1928 Thompson. Thats about $60,000.00, yes sixty thousand dollars, for both, only if you’re a doctor or lawyer. That’s a low end price on both. Yes “stolen” and being used as a range toys for a fun day by these assholes. So I digress, the bolt is back on the Thompson and most likely the MP-40 is locked in the safety notch, it’s laying flat on it’s left side. On a full auto that’s about as safe as it gets. Not the fact where it’s pointing but what they are! That what pisses me off!
Damning new evidence reveals what leading scientists really thought of COVID origins.
Sky News host Sharri Markson says damning new evidence shows scientists and leading government officials who said COVID-19 came from a wet market actually suspected the virus was engineered in a lab. “The private correspondence shows how the group of international scientists, including from Australia, colluded to insist COVID-19 had a natural origin,” Ms Markson said.
40 ounce, in the middle of this discussion about gun safety and the ATF, you post a Covid conspiracy propaganda piece.
Wasn’t somebody saying something about context just a few minutes back…
I wasn’t trying to propagate a false comparison like you were.
Proves you are a “GOV’T” troll!!!!
The COVID “CONSPIRACY” is “PROVING TO BE TRUE”!!!!
Ok folks… the video I originally posted has now been made private. But here’s another one outlining the same thing from the same source (Sky News Australia)….
New emails reveal scientists believed COVID-19 was man-made (in other words, as the now private video pointed out with greater coverage and showing the emails and other information – it came from that lab in Wuhan, and not from the ‘wet market’ thing that was originally pushed and that ‘wet market’ lie was used by government agencies and the media to deceive congress and the American and world public. It turns out the so called ‘covid conspiracy’ that the virus was man made and originated in that lab in Wuhan is probably/possibly true after all …. but anyway another video outlining).
New emails reveal scientists believed COVID-19 was man-made.
This is the reason i do not carry appendix.
While he shouldn’t be standing on that side of the table while the weapons are pointed down range, he’s not actually standing in front of the weapon, he’s to the side of it. It’s camera angle that causes it to look as if the firearm is aimed at him, it’s NOT.
Still, he shouldn’t be doing that regardless of…..anything.
ANTI-GUN TAX UPHELD. Federal Judge Sitting in Big Tech land Upholds San Jose Gun Fees/Insurance Law.
The arguments about this meme on other websites are hilarious.
The number of people who simp for the ATF is insane. I love the gun show comparison. Tell me you’re amateur-as-fuck without saying you’re amateur as fuck.
Many NDs happen during administrative handling of firearms when ammo is present (funny how you need ammo to make a gun go bang). If multiple people are administratively handling firearms with ammo present, like multiple people around a table loading/unloading firearms, your observance of the rules gets a bit tighter because two people can individually make a mistake that results in an unexpected *pop* and you don’t want to be on the wrong end of that noise.
Mr. FBI-Agent-Dancing-In-Denver didn’t have an ND until he tried to pick up his gun that he’d dropped. That’s when he made a mistake and accidentally shot someone. That’s entirely on him since it was his gun. But the same thing can happen if someone leaves a round in the chamber and then someone else reaches over and picks up that gun, or, makes a mistake that somehow results in a trigger being pulled.
But then, this ATF agent is a fatass who’s also decided to stack everything on the front of his kit, so I don’t expect he’s real bright to begin with. Either that or he has a Freudian style hidden desire to lose a lot of fat from his actual ass at very high speed if things go pear-shaped.
If you’re the type to set up your body armor – meaning you expect incoming – in a way that ensures that you hit the deck in a manner that you have no choice but to assume the posture known as “trying to hump a large pile of laundry on a lonely Friday night”, then you probably need to be unemployed in terms of any profession that actually issues body armor because you’re lucky to score room temperature on an IQ test.
“you’re lucky to score room temperature on an IQ test.” Gonna steal that.
In celcius scale too.
“But the same thing can happen if someone leaves a round in the chamber and then someone else reaches over and picks up that gun, or, makes a mistake that somehow results in a trigger being pulled.“
Just ask Alec Baldwin…
Baldwin shot someone at a gun show? That’s news to me, Liar69er.
What am I not seeing? The gun pointed at a crotch is on the table, so unless casper pulls the trigger, it isn’t going to hurt anyone. The guy loading looks like he’s working a mag loader, so that mag isn’t in a gun.
I hate the ATF as much as the next guy, but I must be missing something on this one.
A round left in the chamber when someone reaches across the table for something else (or to grab that MP40) and an accidental gender transition occurs.
A table set up like that in a place like that isn’t your coffee table. It’s a crowded workspace for multiple people, each of whom can make a single mistake that stacks together into a serious problem, like a case of near-muzzle velocity gender affirmation.
This is like the safety on a pistol vs a rifle debate. They’re different animals, you treat them differently unless you basically want to get bitten.
That table, under those circumstances, isn’t “under your control”. It’s a different animal.
MP40 is an open-bolt gun. When the trigger is pulled the bolt moves forward and strips a cartridge from the magazine. The cartridge is fired when the bolt closes on the chamber. Recoil will force the bolt open to eject the cartridge. If the trigger is held, the process repeats. If the trigger is released the sear will hold the bolt back.
The firing pin is machined into the bolt face, so a chambered round with the bolt forward is probably a dud.
But having the barrel pointed at the gonads makes me nervous.
“Malingering spreads like a goddamn yeast infection” is the rule with anything like this. You don’t break the rules because then you get comfortable breaking the rules and, over a long enough period of time, bad shit happens to someone. This is a known issue with guns. People go a long time without an issue, get cavalier because “they have experience” and someone gets hurt.
We all know damn right well that if you ask fatboy about this he’s not going to give you a detailed explanation of why breaking the rules was OK in this case because he knows that MP40 back to front and personally inspected the internals just prior to that image being taken to ensure that this is all up to date and true.
That’s an image of someone being careless, we all know it. And even if in some magical unicorn land he does somehow know that what he’s doing is “safe”, the idea that the ATF released this image shows that they don’t understand gun safety or public optics where the agents of a .gov bureaucracy that regulates Item X needs to be like Caesar’s Wife when it comes to Item X and the public.
Real talk, I drop an open bolt subgun on the table like that when you’re standing there and then give you the explanation you just gave me, I’m getting yelled at and I fucking well deserve it.
you’re missing that the ATF pic firearms are in active use and suppose to be pointed down range and not towards people, or in other words…
* Always Keep Firearm Pointed in a Safe direction – Never point your gun at anything you do not intend to shoot.
* Treat All Guns as Though They are Loaded
Two of the very safety rules the ATF endorsed for use.
*keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot…how do Glock owners ever field strip their firearm without violating this rule and why isn’t that discussed with as much passion?
“why isn’t that discussed with as much passion”
Because its a dumb ridiculous argument/discussion and expresses an underlying ignorance of how the rules are applied and lack of basic understanding of ‘context’. Think about it, for example, the rule is a rule always therefore no one can ever clean their gun because of the rule of treating firearms as though they are always loaded and you don’t try to clean a loaded gun. Lets apply that to something else, car maintenance, its a ‘rule’ (e.g. law) that one must always stop at stop signs therefore one may not change a flat tire until they are stopped at a stop sign.
The point is, for ‘rules’ there comes a point where an exception applies in context with the situation and where an exception does not apply in context with the situation – and not understanding that is an underlying ignorance of how the rules are applied and lack of basic understanding of ‘context’. That’s why its a dumb ridiculous argument/discussion.
Although applied at all times, and the rules should be, its intended in application for ‘in active use’ firearms to be always applied without exception to be adhered to and firearms on an active firing range as the ATF firearms are in the tweet are in active use status by virtue of being available for use with live ammo around and having been fired or will be fired in that firing range setting.
Sure, you could extended this ‘rule’ thing out to your example about Glocks. But there are exceptions to the rule and one is for breaking down firearms (e.g. maintenance, inspection, cleaning, etc…) where its assumed one would follow the other rule to make sure the firearm not in an active use status is unloaded first by treating it as it is loaded until its confirmed its not loaded and at that point of positively personally confirming without a doubt ‘cold’ (no ammo in the gun) the Glock is no longer subject to the strict adherence rules for ‘maintenance’ functions and its no different for any other firearm Glock or not which is why its also a ‘recommended rule’ there be no ammo near the gun while you are handling it for this purpose.
But you are free to be as context free passionate as you wish with applying the rules to your own personal firearms.
Classic Leftie Do As I Say, Not As I Do.
’nuff said.
why do you guys keep responding to miner
hes as much an idiot
as the day is long
and the days grow quite long anymore
since people like him helped biden to get installed
miner doesnt know anything
hes a poster child for the dunning kruger effect
hes a mental case with internet access
and he will never ever change
you cant fix stupid
and you cant argue with crazy
hes doing what hes doing to push your buttons
and ruin the site
stop
feeding
the
troll
and
he
will
go
away…
Actually, my purpose is to correct any misconceptions folks may have regarding these subjects.
Gentle enlightenment is my mission, perhaps using a bit of wit and comedy to point out the flaws in the forum postings.
Stand back and standby.
MajorLiar,
That’s interesting that that is your “mission” – since your ENTIRE WORLDVIEW is predicating on misconceptions (your worldview could easily be marketed as birth control – “Always a misconception!!”.
Every comment you make just reinforces how PROFOUNDLY ignorant and ideologically-blinded you are. But, do continue on with your efforts to provide us “gentle enlightenment”, we need the yuks, @$$clown.
MAJORLIAR is A paid GOV’T stooge based in Britain!!!!
“Actually, my purpose is to correct any misconceptions folks may have regarding these subjects.
“Gentle enlightenment is my mission, perhaps using a bit of wit and comedy to point out the flaws in the forum postings.”
That’s an unusual way of saying that you’re a liar, Liar69er.
You have failed dismally, accept your disgrace and move on.
too bad it didn’t go off
Anyone who cites the ATF as an example to be followed needs to carefully review their thinking, or so it seems to me.