First, here’s the official version of the story via ksl.com: “A woman was arrested Wednesday after hitting a vehicle with a tire iron and attempting to rob two men, police said. The incident occurred around 9:45 a.m. at Yankee Meadows Reservoir, according to the Iron County Sheriff’s Department. Siobahn Denise Hall, 29, [above] followed two men driving off I-15 who were headed toward Yankee Reservoir, police said. The men were St. George residents who were driving to Yankee Meadows Reservoir to fish. Hall blocked the exit road with her car and then got out of the vehicle. She began hitting the victims’ car with a tire iron and demanding money, police said. The two victims exited their vehicle and were able to subdue Hall. A passerby saw the incident and drove to the Iron County Sheriff’s Office to alert police.” Now here’s the victim’s version . . .
She followed us to within 200 feet of Yankee meadows reservoir and then blocked the road in a very narrow, steep, muddy section of road. We couldn’t back up because we were pulling a boat, She sprayed me in the face with tire cleaner and then tried some other things before she took the tire iron out of her trunk and started striking my door repeated times. My friend had to get out of the car to draw her away from my door so I could get out of the vehicle. That is when she stuck at my friend with the tire iron but he was able to catch it with his hands and not get hit.
In the process of wrestling her down to the ground with the tire iron he did get scraped up enough to get blood on his clothes. I have a permit and almost always carry a 9mm but didn’t have it with me this time. We are just glad that we could take care of the situation without hurting her and hope that she gets the help she needs. There is a lot more to this story but the above are the basics.
Here’s a response in the comments section by tarm808, who claims to be the perp’s friend . . .
As someone who knows her, thank you for not carrying that day. I know it sounds weird, I have a CCW of my own and would have been carrying myself. But I’m so glad you weren’t. This is so out of character for her and we’re all just so confused as to why it happened. This is not like her one bit. I didn’t believe it was actually her until I read your comments and you confirmed it. Take the nicest, sweetest, most caring woman you know, now imagine her doing this. That’s how we all are feeling right now. I’m hating reading the comments from people attacking her, really goes to show how people judge on these articles not knowing the person. I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and how you handled the situation. You don’t seem to be bitter or out for revenge against her. You seem just as concerned as her family and friends. I don’t know what else to say, I’m just sitting here in shock.
Once again, someone assumes that a law-abiding American exercising their natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms is transformed into a trigger-happy killer by the mere presence of a firearm. In this they are wrong, except maybe personally (time for a reality check for tarm88). Imagine if Ms. Hall had come at the victims with a knife or a gun? What if she was really determined with that tire iron? Why wouldn’t you want a gun? As commentator rgoers points out . . .
Carrying or not, it doesn’t sound like it would have been handled any differently. Not ALL people who carry are trigger-happy and ready to kill in a situation like this. In fact, those who DO carry are far more likely to be aware of the legal implications that would be involved should a shooting occur. (i.e. Expect to be questioned, detained, and/or arrested) Why risk ruining several lives when 2 guys were able to subdue this girl without a firearm?
Still, should have been a defensive gun use? [h/t RD]
Well done by the “victims”
Given their physical ability and hers, they used the least force necessary to stop the threat.
Scraped up so what.
Agreed. A cop would have just shot her in the face, be done with it, and chalk up a vacation.
It would take more space than I have here to list out all the times I could have legally and justifiably shot someone on duty but didn’t. I’ve mentioned a few in comments on previous articles, but by no means all. This is true for pretty much everyone I work with as well.
This by no means excuses any, much less all of the bad shoots across the country, and I freely admit they happen. Just need to add some perspective.
That was an irrelevant and dickheadish comment.
It was an accurate comment, based on reality. Time to wake up, sir. The reality of today’s police is that they have cultivated an us-against-them attitude and seem to consistently escalate just about every situation hoping to get an arrest or an excuse to bust someone’s head.
… and they usually claim “officer safety” as an excuse which always works because the police are the ones policing themselves. They have no real accountability.
the comment below is for bob.
It was an accurate comment, based on reality. Time to wake up, sir. The reality of today’s gun-owners is that they have cultivated an us-against-them attitude and seem to consistently escalate just about every situation because of the 2nd amendment, or an excuse to bust someone’s head.
wow, I can make sweeping generalizations too! Loooook at meeeee!
This story doesn’t even have anything to do with cops, other than the mugshot! WTF brought the cop haters out of the closet…not enough other articles here on TTAG to fap to?
Would have been a justified shooting if a cop or a citizen had shot her (at least in GA). Assault with a deadly weapon involved. Too bad if she is bat shit crazy or just having a bad day…you go after someone with a tire iron, you get what you ask for.
That being said, kudos to the guys for handling it the way they did. As with a lot of things in life: just because you CAN do a thing, doesn’t mean you SHOULD do it…
It’s not so much cop haters as stating a fact that she probably would have been dead if a cop was on the scene. They tend to escalate things to a level far above where it needs to go. As you said, just because you can do it doesnt mean you should. Cops these days are more prone to doing what they can vs. what they should.
There’s no reason to hit a woman…
If you’re like me and doing the 6-day week thing, you might want to know this is NSFW (or, in some quarters, for women and children). How many F-bombs can one guy drop per minute?? Not to say he ain’t on to something…
Yeah, true enough.
This isn’t something you want to listen to around the babies, or in the office on full blast.
Though, my office environment is a little more relaxed than most, we are all ex-military. F-bombs are par for the course.
OMG! That was hilarious!
I love Bill Burr’s work. His opening bit from that special is even somewhat gun-friendly (he let his girlfriend talk him out of getting one, then regretted it when they got robbed), and he mocks all the canned statistics anti-gunners love to throw out.
Bill is pretty gun friendly from what I know. Found it hilarious when he was talking once about how he wanted a shotgun.
Though the funniest thing was seeing him as a torpedo in Breaking Bad.
Reminds me of this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVb6VHvCupw
Depends , A woman can still kick ass hand to hand if properly trained. .http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=youtube+russian+woman+kicks+muggers+butt&FORM=VIRE1#view=detail&mid=D4FB18FB9F083813D2ABD4FB18FB9F083813D2AB ,
she does have that 1000 yard smile…..
That is a very apt description. Well done.
She’s very lucky the police didn’t get there first as they would have shot her and cited their prime directive:”officer safety”
And don’t forget they would have shot her dog too.
That’s just an odd story. One woman tries to rob two men?
…using tire cleaner!
Absolutely could have been a DGU. I don’t think that the post showing gratitude that the girl still lives was insulting at all – I think you’re reading into that a bit. The guy seems grateful his friend lives and these guys handled the situation with extreme care. They could apparently tell something was ‘off’ and wanted her to get help.
The phrasing was wrong if that was what he meant to say. He said specifically he was grateful the victim was not carrying, not grateful the men exercised restraint or compassion but grateful that they were unarmed. Given the people involved and the items at hand it could easily have gone far worse had the assailant made slightly different decisions. One or more men could be dead or severely injured and the assailant on her way to a more severe confinement all for want of a tool.
Being unarmed in no way improved the outcome as the friend wants to imply.
I don’t know what I would have done in that situation but there probably wasn’t a clear shot in the situation anyway. You cannot assume that Ms. Hall could not have done lethal damage with the tire iron. I know a number or women who are small but I still wouldn’t want to go hand-to-hand with them; they don’t have marital training either.
Tarm808 sounds like the usual “he/she was a good person going over rough spot n life but was turning their life around.” friend or relative. Did Ms. Hall have psychotic break of some kind? Is there a history between Ms. Hall and one or both of the victims? Be interesting to follow the legal proceedings and learn the answers to these questions.
Where can I send my wife for some marital training?
Dyslexia strikes again!
Dyslexics of the world. Untie!
Old McDonald had Dyslexia, OIEIE!
Sydlexia strikes again.
(You should be more consistently Dylsexic.)
While on the one hand this seems to have been resolved well by the two victims…
In the end, we can judge others only by their actions as we know them. The lady may have been very nice to her friends, but her victims presumably did not know her as such … Nor did they know what she was capable of or equipped for.
Given the circumstances (tire cleaner in the eyes?!) shooting her may have been questionable; but I’d have a hard time concluding it would be out of the question.
So .. DGU? Do you draw only with intent to fire? Or do you draw and “brandish” to dissuade? In either case, where would you draw the line in this incident? What if you had been alone?
I don’t have answers, but there are many things to think about here.
Why risk ruining several lives when 2 guys were able to subdue this girl without a firearm?
When confronting dogs or humans, it would be nice if some in law enforcement would ask the same question themselves.
Hundreds, maybe thousands, do…every day.
Next troll please…
Interesting…so if this woman was having a psychotic break or was on PCP and not able to be subdued, would her friend still feel the same way? This could’ve played out several different ways where she could’ve seriously harmed/killed someone.
Why is it that the state I never mentioned in the story? I get the paper or station not mentioning it as circulation and viewership will typically be local, but when a sit such as ttag makes a post on a story, it would be helpful for some of us if the state could be named.
Bing (or Google) ‘Yankee Meadows Reservoir’.
Interstate highways are given even numbers if they run east/west and odd numbers if they run north/south. North/south interstates are numbered from west to east and east/west interstates from south to north. So I-15 has to be western U.S. because of the low number. At least that will give you a broad area of where it could be without even having to invoke the internet superbrain. 😉
…and three digit interstate numbers are bypasses, or spurs. If the first digit is even, it’s a bypass (or ring road). 495 around DC, 285 around Atlanta, Etc.
Odd digit first numbers are spurs.
I think this knowledge is going the way of area code 555-1212.
I saw that episode of “The Big Bang Theory”, too.
Why should he have to?
I was eventually able to figure it out because I recognized one of the place names. But why should I have had to?
The original writer of the piece is not to blame–he/she was writing for a local audience. But I see it all the time when a story is picked up by a publication of national readership. Some county or small town name is mentioned and they just assume that’s adequate. You have no idea, really, where it is. Oftentimes it’s the county containing a big city (e.g., Cook County–Chicago) or a suburb of a big city (Skokie, Ill) but you get no hint in either case unless you happen to know, that the story essentially is about Chicago.
To not even mention the state, when regurgitating the story for a national audience, is just inconsiderate.
Even though deadly force would have been justified, it is always best to use the minimum force necessary to accomplish the task. We are not like some big city police officers who would have emptied their guns on the lady. We are honor bound to do what is right. (Disclaimer: Minimum force doesn’t mean we unnecessarily risk our lives. If she had a knife or she was a 225 pound body builder, the minimum force necessary would have been higher.)
Exactly, This is why concealed carriers should ALWAYS carry a non-lethal alternative, and pepper spray is the ideal alternative. As she approached his window in a threatening manner, he could have shot her at a distance, changing the whole dynamic of the episode.
The likelihood of being in a non-lethal force situation is exponentially higher than ever being in a lethal confrontation. Therefore, remember the Boy Scout motto and “Be Prepared.”
Even if she was too psychotic for the OC to have effect, that in itself is valuable information as to your next move on the Use-of-Force scale.
Excellent points from both Bob20 and Gregolas.
100% agree. You see the same lessons in police/military-as-police incidents where due to training or lack of equipment they use lethal force when less-than-lethal would have satisfactorily resolved the situation.
This is actually an important point for CCW advocates. Too many laypeople assume that if you have a CCW then any threat against them would result in a discharge-type DGU. Guns are tools and having one does not mean you need to use it, but only having one and not having any other options means you are more likely to do so particularly if you’re trained that way.
Having only pepper spray is not great, having a gun is better. Having both gives you more options to resolve a situation – though if you’re really good you’ll avoid it entirely.
Sounds like some anti gunners trolling
Most cops carry an expandable baton, pepper spray, and a TASER…in addition to a firearm. Lethal force, or even the threat of it, is not always the solution.
A baton and even mace Is still lethal force. Less lethal but still lethal. hence the need for a fine understanding of escalation and force, outside of the protected ranks of police force’ use of any force or force multiplier must be carefully considered.
In what alternate universe is this NOT a DGU?!? Yep she’s a sweetheart. A little PMS? Bi-polar? Schizophrenia? Or just a cute criminal? And it’s a good thing the 2 crime victims had a witness because NOBODY would believe the them otherwise…
I’m betting you hit it on the head, no pun intended, with the bi-polar schizoid possibility. She appears to be right at the age, 25 or so when it manifests the most.
She probably doesn’t even remember it now.
If it is a bi-polar type of condition, she will always be a danger. There is no fixing it, just control.
A tire iron to the head could have easily killed one the victims. She might be really nice, but she was having a really bad day and she’s lucky they weren’t carrying.
Are you implying with absolutely no cause that the option of a gun would have changed the decisions of the then armed victim to the extent that he would have shot her? They did not apply lethal force or even excessive force apparently despite the capability but somehow a gun would have made it worse for her?
Sounds like she might have been on drugs. She could have used her car as a weapon. Very dangerous situation.
Drugs are definitely the most probable factor here. She was either high or trying to get money for a fix or both at the same time. There is really no other explanation.
She will likely pull something like this again, probably not quite as brazen but just as bizarre and stupid. So it is a tough call, she is clearly not very good at robbing people but she will probably continue to exploit others.
Sometimes, stuff just works itself out. I suspect had one of these guys been carrying, they would’ve reviewed it as one more option, and probably still not the one they chose. There’s lots of circumstances that this could have been under, but under the ones that actually happened, these guys did just fine, although I doubt he leaves home without his sidearm again….
I also didn’t read any negative or “anti CCW” into the friend’s comment. It just reads like somebody who’s glad they don’t have to go to a funeral this week. It just as easily could’ve read “Thanks for not shooting my crazy friend!”
I think that says a lot about the character of CCW holders. I think this falls under the category of Could Have Been a DGU (but didn’t) and call it good all the way around.
I agree with the above poster, the person was just grateful a gun wasn’t involved and was saying he would have shot her, so would a lot of people, when in the moment if someone is swinging a tire iron at your friend you shoot first to defend and ask questions later. That doesn’t make you bloodthirsty, it makes you human
It turns out that there was no gun involved, the man blocked the tire iron, and no one was killed or seriously injured. She made a lethal attack, but he got lucky (and skill was also involved to an extent). Had he had a gun, even if he DID decide to use it, that doesn’t necessarily mean that a death would have occurred.
Of all the tire irons swung at someone, and all the guns shot at someone, I’m really not sure has a higher percentage of fatality.
Hmmm when she gets out she’ll sue for assault and unlawful imprisonment and then get a free boat! Who doesn’t love a free boat?
A tire iron is a very useful weapon, used to use them all the time in Chicago back in the day and I know for certain that I would not want to be on the business end of one.
This causes me to ponder what ifs. What if it was two cops, out of shape fat cops? What if it was someone who had children with them? Their concern would be the safety of others who would not be capable of fending off an attack! Being blocked in demands a person get out of the car and get to safety, otherwise they be caught inside the vehicle. If they got out and get incapacitated, then the others are left defenseless.
It’s certainly clear this women is very lucky to be alive. I Always carry in Utah. My Washington and Arizona CWPs are both valid there and there is a strong possibility that this women could have gotten shot. I wasn’t there and I don’t pull my boat that far, so circumstances would be different, but she is very lucky she’s alive today.
Let’s hope her future new boyfriend doesn’t have low seamen production…
Why you gotta be so hard on folks in the Navy, bro?
Spellcheck is not always your friend.
One does lead to the other…
While I’m always grateful that a self defense encounter did not end with serious injury/loss of life (especially for the defender) I am getting weary of the aggressor’s defenders trotting out the tired old time that (s)he is a “good person”. It’s almost as predictable as NDs being reported as the gun “going off”.
I wonder was this playing in the background as tarm808 was typing?
Luckyily she chose two stronger victims instead of a female, or someone who was disabled or elderly. And I’m guessing the person saying “she’s usually a sweet heart” probably hasn’t been attacked with a tire iron before.
She does have that “Overly Attached Girlfriend” look from YouTube.
Damn…they could be sisters…
Sounds like another case of psychotropic drugs gone bad.
I think we might have another viral “hot mugshot” in the making here …
It very could have been a DGU, but I’m agreement that this probably wouldn’t’ve been handled any differently even if the victims were carrying that day. Only a hard-hearted psychopath would want to kill somebody, and these folks don’t seem to fit that bill. That being said, this is still a happy ending, IMHO. Nobody got seriously hurt, and the bad guy (bad gal in this case) got theirs.
She was crazy (drunk or drugged out I guess) but I don’t think they felt their lives threatened by her. I think he probably would have used the gun to get her to stop and drop the weapon without even shooting.
Re-read the article … the victim with a concealed carry license was not armed that day.
Hence the phrasing “I think he WOULD have…”
This is so out of character for her and we’re all just so confused as to why it happened. This is not like her one bit. I didn’t believe it was actually her until I read your comments and you confirmed it. Take the nicest, sweetest, most caring woman you know, now imagine her doing this. That’s how we all are feeling right now.
What a lie.
Yup. It’s the old “He was always a quiet boy, never bothered anybody. He was always pleasant. I don’t know why he killed 15 people at McDonalds…”
Never stick your d**k in crazy folks.
The thing is as far as those particular people know the people in question are nice quiet types. people with this type of dysfunction are notoriously good at concealing the truth. There are signs usually but most people wont have the knowledge to spot them and being close to or related to a person dose distort ones view of them. Lastly there is the plain old fact that lots of people have issues, depression anxiety anger issues and social problems but very few of them act out to the degree we see in the news. Picking out your awkward kid or weird friend for some special attention can be detrimental to that person and all for the miniscule chance that (s)he may become one of the very few cases to go critical.
No wire hangers EVER! I mean, I’m not gonna be ignored, Dan!
Every man’s nightmare, even if she’s a lovely person, so nice and sweet and just turning her life around.
“Still, should have been a defensive gun use?”
I am inclined to say “it depends”. One woman with a tire iron attacking two unarmed men? It all depends on the physical fitness of the two men and how “proficient” the woman was with the tire iron.
Varies from place to place, but where I’m from…
O.C.G.A. § 16-3-21
Use of force in defense of self or others; evidence of belief that force was necessary in murder or manslaughter prosecution
(a) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that such threat or force is necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person against such other’s imminent use of unlawful force; however, except as provided in Code Section 16-3-23, a person is justified in using force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury to himself or herself or a third person or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
Crazy Ex-Girl Friend – Miranda Lambert
Well I started throwing things and
I scared folks half to death
I got up in his face and smelled whiskey on his breath
I Didn’t give it a second thought to being thrown in jail
Well baby to a hammer everything looks like a nail
And I was mad as hell
Well those pretty girls they’re all the same
But they’re damn well gonna know my name
I’m a crazy Ex-Girlfriend
I’m a crazy Ex-Girlfriend
I’m a crazy Ex-Girlfriend
I’m a crazy Ex-Girlfriend
Waiting for her side of the story. She needed money?
Id say this story serves as more of an example that your concealed firearm cant be your only tool in your defensive tool box. Training with some form of unarmed combat, and knives is also a good idea, just my .02. I think that Krav Maga is a great program but so is BJJ and MMA
Yeah, and I’m 68 with a questionable ticker and a limp. She’d be dead.
She reminds me of a character off of the Marvelous Misadventures of Flapjack.
Nobody is talking about Anthony Cumia (of Opie & Anthony) getting attacked by a woman in NYC while he was legally carrying.
Piano keys and crazy eyes.
Elmer Fudd would’ve shot someone who looks like a wabbit.
I would have laughed, then hosed her down with Fox Labs 5.3. That stuff is potent.
YEP! That is some sho nuff fire in a can. I actually know a person who had a contact lens melted to their eyeball…had to get it removed by a doctor! 5.3 million SHU is nothing to sneeze at…
The woman is lucky. Two different types of guys would have done bad things to her and not thought twice about it.
Oh, now that is the truth. Back in the hinterlands all alone? I hadn’t even thought about it, but then I’m old…
She blocked their vehicle, repeatedly attacked them, sprayed them with a chemical, then tried to hit or kill them with a tire iron? She had it coming, whatever “it” was.
Is that her mugshot or Facebook profile photo? Either way she looks completely batshit crazy.
If that is her mugshot, she is posing like it’s a publicity photo, which means she is not right in the head.
Assuming the events occurred substantially as reported, then of course it should have been a DGU. A DGU doesn’t need to include actually discharging the firearm, you know. In the context of Texas law, these guys would have been justified to threaten deadly force, which is the same justification for using deadly force. Only I’m not convinced the events played out quite like this.
The big question mark is what precipitated all of this. Were they both really just driving down the road and this woman went berserk with absolutely zero real world provocation, as though she were on bath salts? It’s all fun and games to watch fictional crazy people on T.V. and in the movies doing wacky violent things to people, property and themselves; but that entertainment value wears thin when you witness the real thing.
If there was no provocation or interaction before this woman just went psycho violent, then she is indeed very, very lucky to be alive. You have no idea what someone like that is capable of and what implements they may have to assist them. You only have yourself to blame for waiting and waiting until you finally believe the unbelievable is actually happening.
I have a feeling there’s a lot more to this story, more than just additional inconsequential details, and that the remainder of the reality doesn’t present the two guys in the most favorable and sympathetic light.
As for the “thank you for not carrying” bit, I don’t interpret that as an exhortation never to carry nor a suggestion that those who do carry are bloodthirsty, hair trigger savages. It’s clear to me that the friend of the suspect only meant that he’s glad his friend wasn’t killed, albeit it unartfully expressed, over this supposedly wildly out of character encounter.
I tend to agree. And how about another possibility … Perhaps she was not actually a stranger to both of these men, if you get my drift.
A pretty girl who is pretty crazy.
Regardless of how the victims handled this, a dashcam might have come in handy. The gal could have made up any sort of story and the guys would be under investigation.
Who the frell smiles during a mugshot?
Drugs, crazy, or both. My guess anyway….
I don’t think Tarm was suggesting that someone with a pistol is automatically ‘trigger-happy’- quite the opposite! I think the comment was an acknowledgement that these two gentleman faced a serious threat that MAY have warranted the use of a firearm. Hindsight may reveal that they didn’t need it in this case, but most of us don’t live in hindsight.
Mentally ill. And her parents for naming her: Siobahn.
The person who wrote that thank you to those two men had reason to be concerned because he knew her personally or was related to her. He should have taught her that having a bad hair day does not constitute a right for her to damage people’s car and attack them and that she may run into a not so tolerant victim that would shoot her.
Now, you’re minding your own business when someone YOU DON”T KNOW OR ARE NOT RELATED TO comes along and tries to kill you; tries to steal what you’ve worked for; tries to harm your loved one; tries to rape your wife, sister, mother, or daughter. Why do you owe this perp the courtesy to not shoot him/her? Why do you owe the perp the courtesy of analyzing why he’s doing this? Why do you owe the courtesy to the family of the perp that “he/she was a good person, turning his/her life around and that he/she just made a mistake” while you pay with your life? Why do you owe any criminal any common courtesy at all? What common courtesy is the criminal showing YOU?
By all descriptions of what happened she was doing drugs as many irrational behaviors do. Why do you owe a druggy common courtesy? People who use drugs are not forced to do so and know that they do stupid things and put their lives in danger. Does it stop them from doing drugs? The answer is generally NO. Should that be a concern of mine when some druggy comes after me with a tire iron and smashes the side of my skull into minute fragments? When he does that what about my family? My crying mother and father; sister and brothers; aunts, uncles etc; my sons and daughters; all at my funeral crying for their loss. And bleeding hearts whine about one perp being shot?
She was damned lucky…beyond words… that she was small enough to overcome her. Had she had a gun in her mental state and had he had his concealed gun…things would probably have been different.