There are times when there’s nothing you can do to defend yourself against a criminal attack. Cab drivers who find themselves with a gun against their neck are well advised to comply with the robber’s demands. By the same token, if you’re alone in a pizza parlor and two armed men storm in, point guns at you and demand money, what are you going to do? Give them the money – and hope they leave without physically assaulting you. But at no point should you “give up.” At every point you should be looking for an opportunity to escape, evade and/or attack. You should assume the criminals will attack you even if you comply. To wit . . .
Police say the employee, Gordon Schaffer [above],was the only person inside the [Papa John’s pizza parlor] when two masked men came inside and forced him to open the cash register and took money from the drawer.
According to a release from the police department, although Schaffer was “compliant and offered no resistance,” the man with the gun shot at him multiple times, hitting him at least once.
A co-worker who was on the phone with Schaffer heard the whole thing happen and called police.
When officers responded, they found Schaffer on the ground near the register. He was still conscious and told them that two black men robbed him.
Schaffer was taken by LifeFlight to Vanderbilt University Medical Center, where he died a short time later.
As the rabbi says, you can do everything right in a self-defense situation and still die. But even if you’re disarmed (which I don’t recommend), even if the odds are stacked against you, don’t be a victim. Don’t assume the victim mindset. All that anti-gun agit-prop that would have you believe you’re safer without a gun is ridiculous.
Personally, I’d rather die fighting – or at least thinking about fighting – than not. You know; if I had the choice. [Click here for the full story from Tennessee’s wsmv.com]
This is about 45 minutes from where I live. They have caught both suspects. My thoughts and prayers go out to the family. And as for the bad guys….May the State of TN run enough electricity through them to light up Nashville.
Thanks for the good-news update.
Oh, and look at this. A regular choir boy.
Guilty of the Papa John’s murder or not, HTH can you be convicted of a robbery in 2013 and be on the street in 2014??
“[T]each governments humanity. It is their sanguinary punishments which corrupt mankind. In England, the punishment in certain cases is, by hanging, drawing and quartering…. In France … the punishments were not less barbarous…. The effect of these cruel spectacles exhibited to the populace, is to destroy tenderness or excite revenge; and by the base and false idea of governing men by terror instead of reason, they become precedents. It is over the lowest class of mankind that government by terror is intended to operate, and it is on them that it operates to the worst effect. They … inflict in their turn the examples of terror they have been instructed to practice.”
~Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man
“What then is capital punishment but the most premeditated of murders, to which no criminal’s deed, however calculated it may be, can be compared? For there to be an equivalence, the death penalty would have to punish a criminal, who had warned his victim of the date at which he would inflict a horrible death on him, and who from that moment onward had confined him at his mercy for months. Such a monster is not encountered in private life.”
~ Albert Camus
I should not regret a fair and full trial of the entire abolition of capital punishment.
~ James Madison
The desire for revenge is understandable but not what our justice system is based on. I know the tough guy ‘they deserve it’ stance but capital puishment debases society and civilization as a whole. Its not about giving them mercy, it is about being better than them. Capital punishment has no place in an enlightened civilized society and the simple fact of one innocent man being executed, which we all know has happened, is justification enough to think twice about the barborous practice of capital punishment. Losing one innocent to government sanctioned lethal injection, electricution, gassing, firing squad, etc, is sickening enough to the heart and stomach that it overcomes any desire for revenge against the most brutal of murderers. Even if revenge is what you desire I think a lifetime of imprisonment would be more desirable. Especially if laboring becomes part of the imprisonment. And don’t talk about the cost to the taxpayer because there are millions of nonviolent criminals behind bars that shouldn’t be because of the misguided war on drugs,
As for your prayers, to Jesus I assume…
“He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”
~ Jesus of Nazareth, while interrupting a public execution of a woman for adultery. John 8:7
So, keeping a person in a cage for the rest of their natural life is better?
Excellent post, great quotes.
I understand your desire to be “better than” these guys. I really do. But I also understand that these feelings are selfish and vain attempts to be a morally superior human being. In reality that tree is fruitless and will be always.
Death penalty is barbaric.
Well said Taylor in TN. Tell them if they need someone from CA to help pay for the electricity, I’m all for it.
Heck, if they need folks to work the firing squad I’ll volunteer or mail them ammo.
Hell I’d even sacrifice some 22 LR
That sucks. Kinda’ like the advice they give women rape victims. Puke, whistle ,cry or just let the animal have his way you. And hope he doesn’t cut your arms off or is a serial killer like the psychopath in Indiana( and maybe elsewhere). Years ago my wife taught self defense for women. Use what’s available. Gun, knife, brick,pen, foot.
I find it passing strange that your typical feminist, who will be the first to tell you that rape is more about degrading the victim than it is about sex per se, will advise potential rape victims to attempt to degrade themselves by peeing, puking, etc so much that the would-be rapist hopefully loses interest in degrading them further.
Do they not understand irony?
Let’s see…hmm…degrade myself in front of rapist…or…shoot him center of mass.
Which decision is more respectful towards women?
Oh…but that’s right…it’s not about individual women…it’s about the radical feminist agenda…which of course is really about radical restructuring of society…with the know-it-alls deciding how everyone else should live.
Kinda like that guy in the White House who said that he was going to “begin again the work of remaking America” (in his image).
I had that conversation with an anti-gun “feminist” Her ultimate response was “you can’t stop violence with more violence.”
Oh yeah you can.
But then feminism is a privilege that only white middle and upper class American women can afford to indulge in, and they are the most coddled and bubbled people on planet Earth. So it makes sense that they have a very skewed view of reality.
I bet she was a misguided follower of MLK (gun owner and highly dependent on that fact) and Ghandi (who wholeheartedly advocated for violence when necessary) but never bothered to learn more than what supported her skewed world view. I wonder if there has ever been a study or article documenting feminisims devolution from the empowerment of women to the disempowerment of everyone else?
Her ultimate response was “you can’t stop violence with more violence.”
They confuse violence on a geopolitical level with violence on a criminal level.
They don’t get the difference between “peace” and “piece”…as in going home “in one piece.”
“You can’t stop violence with more violence”
Here’s my logic: once I use violence to defend me and mine, I don’t really plan on becoming violent again until it became legally justifiable and completely necessary.
A criminal on the other hand would likely return to violent crime time and time again.
Your friend isn’t very clever.
I would also question such advice because you’ve already got a worked-up maniac intent on raping you, so you pee, puke, etc and piss him off even more. Great plan.
The 33 cops shooting 200 rounds came up at work today. I work in a bank and one off the lady’s asked if I would have gone with the robbers. I said that I would fight and she said “with what”? I pulled a pair of scissors, a letter opener, and a pen off of her desk and said “with these”. She was stunned that there were so many weapons handy. It is all about thinking outside the box.
It is not about thinking outside the box, it is about getting them to think at all.
If at all like my wife’s coworkers it’s getting them to even WANT to think. She has consistently been the only person to engage at all when the security consultants come around. It apparently raised eyebrows when she stopped the speaker to ask if things were so potentially bad why she shouldn’t just bring her gun. The answer to the group was that company policy forbade it and it was grounds for immediate termination. In private he said “there is a difference between not allowed to carry and not able to carry”.
That was 600 rounds Frank, not 200
DOH!! Thanks for the correction.
As this story illustrates, again, by whatever means necessary. When confronted in a life or death moment, no holds barred rules apply. Biting a chunk out of your face, sticking my thumb as far as i can into an eye socket, kicking the balls of a thug, let alone shooting the bastard,… Do not hesitate. Die fighting, or survive in a primal violent manner. There is no gray area with a BG using a weapon threatening your life. My sincere prayers and condolences to this young mans family.
If you find yourself in a ‘fair’ fight, you’re doing it wrong.
He said the robbers were black. That’s raciss.
Another victim of “Corporate Policy.”
From the update about the shooter being arrested: “The safety of our employees is our top priority. We are providing counseling for our team members…”
Papa John’s clearly did all they could. They posted a sign saying, ‘No Guns Allowed.’ How could they know that someone intent on committing a crime would disregard their strongly-worded sign?
I’m sure the perps just missed the sign on the way through the door and are very sorry for the misunderstanding.
Actually, they did not miss the sign; they headed for Papa Johns because it was safe (for them).
Yep, Papa Johns placed the potential outlay of money due to an armed employee accidentally shooting a customer during a robbery over the lives of their employees.
To Papa Johns………. Potential lawsuit worse than dead employee. Very simple equation.
doesky2 nailed it!
All businesses accept the liability of a patron slipping and falling or other accidents … it is part of the cost of doing business. Why do they refuse to accept the liability of an armed employee unintentionally harming a patron during a robbery? That liability has to be miniscule compared to everyday accidents such as slip and falls.
Right. First, there has to be a robbery, for example. One of these kids’ families is going to have to sue the pants off an employer, maybe 100 million punitive damages, for refusing to allow the employee to defend himself without providing adequate security. Here in Austin, we had the “yogurt shop murders” back in ’91 I think, where 4 teenaged girls were raped and murdered and incinerated in a yogurt shop late at night. There was no CC in TX at the time, so prohibiting guns was not a player, but the shop was sued out of existence for leaving teenaged girls alone in such a neighborhood. I think that case has been solved several times, now, with different perps each time. It will probably never be actually solved. Shoulda been a DGU.
To Papa John’s…maybe you should worry more about sanitation and employees staying home when sick.
Food poisoning? It was likely a restaurant worker, says CDC
“One in five food service workers say they have worked while sick with vomiting and diarrhea due to “fear of job loss” and “not wanting to leave co-workers short-staffed,” according to the report.
The CDC recommends that the food industry address these problems both with new policies and by better adhering to food safety laws and regulations that are already in place.”
“Personally, I’d rather die fighting – or at least thinking about fighting”
Unless it’s to the Enemy – never say die.
As a 10 year papa johns manager, it has been a “no weapons allowed” policy since I started. Needless to say I’m alone in the store after 8 every night while my drivers are out on deliveries, I also have kept a cocked and locked sig or 1911 (whatever the mood strikes) and the .357 snub under the waistband. My higher up have warned me before, but like I told them, “I’d rather lose my job, than knowing I had a chance” especially considering the most cash accessible at any given time is never more than $200
Funny, because afew weeks ago I went into a Pappa Johns to pick up a pizza that I had ordered. This store was also a “Gun Free Zone” I carried anyway my Glock 26 in a apendix holster. I went inside, PAID FOR MY PIZZA with money that I earned from my….ya know , job. And yet despite my concealed weapon, I never robbed the store, nor did I have a negative discharge….amazing. but what can you do my friend. Golf clap to your for carrying anyway. Be safe out there.
What you should do is to not buy from them. I don’t buy from Papa John’s, Autozone, Starbucks and any place where I see a “no guns”sign. Better that I don’t walk into those places at all, better for them, better for me…
I’m not sure that is AutoZone corporate policy. There’s no sign on the store in my town, and in TN those signs have the force of law.
Not long ago Papa John’s fired an employee that had a gun and Autozone fired one that stopped an armed robbery in the store with his gun. Thus, criminals know that those places are disarmed and safe for criminals.
Why do you keep killing jokes?
Your life is worth more than that paycheck.
Why do your higher ups even know you carry? The fact that you are still there, with their knowledge, and the risk they are taking careerwise with that knowledge tells me it’s not much of a policy.
“At every point you should be looking for an opportunity to escape, evade and/or attack. You should assume the criminals will attack you even if you comply.
Excellent advice. Never hope that the person/people that have just threatened your life will be benevolent enough to spare you. Maybe they will. Or maybe they will decide they have to eliminate witnesses. Or maybe they are just sadistic psychopaths who enjoy hurting people. If they are distracted, if they have to re-load (and you are close by) say, “you’re mine!” Attack with whatever you have until they stop moving. And never, ever let them take you to another, more private location.
Regarding attackers armed with firearms, a professional (or someone who is a long time stick up man) probably won’t get close to you. They don’t want to take the chance that you’ll disarm them. Amateurs that are trying to intimidate you will move in close. The advantage you have is that most criminals aren’t professionals.
Weapon disarms are risky. Regular training is necessary to develop the muscle memory necessary to avoid mistakes at these critical times. But if you feel like you are in extreme danger, you may not have much to lose. Avoid the line of fire and immobilize the gun hand if you can. Don’t try to PULL the gun out of his hand. Rather, TWIST it (towards him!) and try to break his trigger finger. Even if you don’t have a technique down, your resistance may freak him out so much that he loses control of the weapon. Remember, predators aren’t looking for a fair fight, they are looking for victims. Surprise him!
True. Savage predators like these are looking for good little victims. Resistance is the last thing they expect. That can be a huge advantage to the unwitting victim.
Don’t try to look tough. Allow the fear to show, right up until your chance to attack, trying to get them to relax and become overconfident, cocky. Shoot, whimper a bit.
Oh absolutely, let them think they have themselves a compliant victim until the moment you strike. “Whatever you want man, don’t shoot, ok, the register is right….BOOM!”
Remember to create your own distraction. Toss aside whatever they want and make them go get it. That breaks their concentration, usually forces them to take their eyes off of you, and creates a natural opportunity to increase distance between you and them … all good things if your attacker is armed.
Mess with their OODA loop.
Exactly. When facing death, you have nothing to lose by trying. Fight for all you’re worth. Never quit. Never give up. You may very well be surprised and thankful that you took the chance to live. BTW: You can get another job, but not another life. Employers that disallow personal protection should pay the consequences for failure to provide adequate security against a likely and logical threat (as in this case).
“Failure to provide adequate security” – Yes – I’ve seen other pizza delivery stores where the door is locked unless you are buzzed in.
Good point. It’s probably not even very expensive to have something like that installed. Then this kid would be alive more than likely.
Condolences to his family. I hope they execute these animals.
As at Sandy Hook, shooting your way through such a door is not difficult unless the entrance was specifically designed to defeat such an attempt, which is going to be rare. The best result is requiring a clear announcement of intentions to enter, should be met with overwhelming firepower without so much as a “stop”.
“Employers that disallow personal protection should pay the consequences for failure to provide adequate security against a likely and logical threat (as in this case).”
Agreed. Like the US Army at Ft Hood. The likely and logical threat of a known whacko islamist in uniform amongst the troops. Good thing the DOJ decided it was only “workplace violence”. I’m still in fucking wonderment over that one…
It was in 1979 after I read Capote’s ” In Cold Blood”, that I started thinking seriously about self-defense. I resolved to go running or fighting, but never quietly.
Prayers for the young man’s family.
Will Papa Johns change its policy that disarms all employees? Probably not. But since the police have no duty to protect, they assume they do not either. But disarming the employees goes way beyond just not protecting them. It tells criminals they can come in and rob the place without fear just as these goons did.
Employee gets blown away during robbery – employer protected by Workers Comp laws.
Employee blows someone away during robbery – employer not protected from lawsuits.
It’s cheaper for the employer to let you die.
Yeah, you are a number on a balance sheet.
For all their talk about “safe work environment,” they do precious little to keep you safe from assault, robbery, etc.
The “safe work environment” = safe from lawsuits.
This guy passed the NY Times School of Passive Cooperation test. Congratulations!
(condolences to his loved ones)
Yeah, I remember hearing that kind of crap when I lived in a utopian city.
“Don’t resist. Give them what they want. Don’t fight back. Get a good description of the criminal. Call 911.”
Yeah, that always worked well for aircraft hijackings, too!
There were just two similar robberies nearby. That should have told somebody something about the need for security.
It did! And they remained totally secure by leaving a kid in charge of the store, staying away themselves.
I disagree that the only method a cabbie has is to comply with demands. My solution? Hit the accelerator. Get that cab going as fast as possible, then dare the shooter to kill the only thing keeping that cab moving in a straight line. Bonus points if you can get a cop to tail you for speeding, because with any luck the cop will see a gun to the back of your head and know exactly what’s happening.
Bear in mind this doesn’t apply in high traffic in downtown, but if somebody is expecting to use you as a getaway car in deadlocked traffic, he’s just hopelessly stupid.
Do donuts, swerve all over the place, accelerate then jam on the brakes, etc.
Chances are 100% the perp doesn’t have a seatbelt on.
Of course, depending on the circumstances, you could just hop out of the cab and run…fast…zig-zagging.
Take the keys.
The kid was a relative of one of reddit’s ccw forum members: http://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/2jvelw/it_never_hits_home_until_it_happens_to_you/