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If the S hits the gun rights-shaped fan in CT, NY, NJ, NV or anywhere else, I’m staying put. Providing Uncle Sam doesn’t pull the plug on our servers – and maybe if he does – I can best serve The People of the Gun right here, blogging for TTAG’s Armed Intelligentsia. But hats off to James Yeager for heading to the Silver State to join-up with his fellow operators at the Bundy Ranch to . . . well, I’m still not too sure what the kerfuffle’s all about. I remain unconvinced that Cliven is the patriot the militia’s looking for. In fact, under what circumstances would you leave home and hearth to come to the aid of beleaguered fellow Americans?

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  1. ” I remain unconvinced that Cliven is the patriot the militia’s looking for.”

    It’s not a “patriot” we’re looking for. He’s an Americal citizen under attack from his own government.

    • You could say the same about a bank robber in a standoff with police. Or a mobster being indicted for dumping toxic waste in the south 40.

      I know, I know … That’s different. Of course it is. But it illustrates that this isn’t nearly as simple a question as it appears.

      • Yeah, John. I guess you *could* say that. Similarly, we could justify a no-knock visit from your local SWAT team, because right now there are child molesters somewhere in the world, and you just might theoretically be one of them.

        Nice logic.

    • I thought this was a fair article:

      “The Bundy family’s battle with the federal government–now playing out in international news coverage—began in 1993 with the listing of a native tortoise incorporated under the Endangered Species Act. As a result, the U.S. Department of Interior’s Bureau of Land Management (BLM) informed grazing permit holders like Bundy that cattle counts would need to be reduced to 150 head. That same year, the Bundy permit was eligible for renewal but was not executed. The permit was later revoked in 1994 by the BLM for nonpayment on the renewal, according to federal court records.

      Claiming that the Bundy family continued to graze livestock on their old Bunkerville Allotment without permit, the BLM sought an injunction in federal court to correct the “trespass” in 1998. The court ordered the Bundy family remove all non-permitted livestock by November 30, 1998 or face fines of $200 per head, per day. The family appealed to the 9th Circuit Court—only to be denied in May 1999.

      Throughout the period of 2000 to 2011–spanning both Bush and Obama Administrations–the BLM performed a series of investigations with a variety of reconnaissance tactics to track the alleged trespass of cattle owned by the Bundy family. According to court records, federal agents noted increasing herd sizes on the land formerly allotted and adjacent tracts which were never permitted to private parties. Investigators noted that “more than half” of the cattle did not bear any brand but were confirmed to be the property of Bundy “in correspondence,” according to filings.”

        • Because rustling is a big issue in the West. Many cattle go missing. It’s harder to slip branded/ear tagged/marked cattle into a herd or take such cattle carcasses to the butcher.

        • Because cattle rustling happens today,

          Only instead of it being done with horses and cowboys, it is done with diesel pickups and featherlite horse trailers.

          Find some cows with no brand on them. put them into your trailer and drive down to a sale barn a few counties away.

          At today’s cattle prices (far above what the BLM was quoting – proving that once again, the federal government doesn’t know its ass from a hot rock about anything having to do with money), stealing cattle is quite lucrative. Calves even more so. Last I knew, 12-weight steers were bringing $140 to $150/cwt at slaughter. Even an older bull with a broken dick is getting nearly $100/cwt here in Wyoming.

      • And then, after reading all of that verbose “lawyerspeak” on FEDERAL court findings and the OPINIONS of federal judges, watch this for eleven minutes, and THEN get back to us…
        hopefully with a little bit more information than just the feds side of things.

        • He is breaking the law, though I still (morally) support him due to being against your government.

      • Read the link at the bottom of the page to get the original source- “The Atlantic”
        Thye promote Obamacare, too

    • That’s what makes this case so vexing. I’m not convinced Bundy is even in the right, plus he’s had multiple court rulings against him, which he’s ignored.

      That said, the government’s response has been heavy handed, but nobody’s been maimed or killed. It’s instructive and I’m glad America is seeing this over-the-top conduct for themselves, especially outside of the context of no-knock raids on crack houses. Maybe now they’ll quit granting carte blanch to the government in the name of “public safety.” Nevertheless, I think we can hitch our wagon to a better star.

  2. How hard has the S hit the fan? I’m happy being a hardened target. I don’t have much camping kit any more.

    • Yeah, I lost three tents to neglect and windstorms. I don’t have a decent tent. Just a small camp stove and hatchets and big knives and stuff. But if it hits the fan, I’m outta here anyway. Far too many people within ten minutes’ walk of here (at least 20,000), and this apartment cannot be sufficiently hardened.

      It’s the Big Hurt waiting to happen.

      • A simple tarp is better anyway. Even a 6 dollar one works. Lighter, smaller, quicker to set up, and easier to move around. Leaving a small footprint will be important. Ease and quickness of movement will be important. Light and small also. Remember, if the SHTF all your gear will need to be packed on your back. any vehicle, or even beasts, will be too easy to locate…

  3. I don’t have an answer, yet, other than “it depends on who and what we’re talking about.”

    Not a satisfactory answer, actually, even if accurate as far as it goes.

    Thanks for nudging me to give it serious thought before I might have to make a hard choice.

    • I suspect it will be exactly like Crimea and eastern Ukraine – we will know when they time is right and we will respond as best we can. Somehow joining a group of partisans camping in the woods does not seem like the best plan, given the capabilities of government helicopters, drones and satellites.

  4. In the event of an attempted power grab by those in office or wishing to remain in office past their legal elected terms. A nation wide event that clearly puts our way of life under threat. Not just gun rights.

    I would go then.

  5. Honesty answer is: I don’t know. I can’t point to any one thing and say, “that’s when”, without some more context. Cross that bridge when we come to it, I guess, and we haven’t yet.

    • I’m too old, too fat and too crippled up to be of much use as an “operator”, but I’ll be happy to join you guys in defending the great commonwealth of Pennsylvania against all enemies, both foreign and domestic. They will probably take me out early, but I’m pretty sure I can take a bunch of ’em with me. As far as going to Nevada to help out the Bundy family? Nope, not interested in his battle. If our fearless leader here, Mr. Farago were to be put under seige for running this site and using his 1st amendment rights, I’d be strongly motivated to see what I could do to assist him. Same for someone like Alan Gottlieb. So my answer is it would depend on what the circumstance was and who is involved and what could I realistically offer to aide in the situation.

      • Don’t sell yourself short, guerilla warfare is the thing (hello NSA 🙂 ).

        I know that the old folks were (unsurprisingly/surprisingly) useful during the war. Mainly because they survived WW2 and thusly knew what to do to survive.

        • I am old, but not THAT old. In fact, I was just young enough to avoid the draft. With no military or police training–hell, let’s be frank, NO training, I count as nothing but cannon fodder. With a wife in a wheel chair, and no one to care for her if I’m gone, I am afraid that her needs and my utter uselessness take me out of any fight. Protests, votes, court actions, all of that I can support, but fighting is beyond me.

        • Not my list, but I think there is a place for everybody when the party kicks off. Whatever that party may look like. I don’t think anybody should sell themselves short on what part they can play.

          Medical/Medical Evacuation
          Personnel (Admin)
          Safe House
          Cyber Defense/Attack
          Workshop (fabricate/repair/maintain)
          Tactical Reserve
          Information Operations
          UAS/UGV operator

  6. If you invite Lady Justice with her balance to weigh in it is clear to me that Bundy is well on the side of right. Obuma/Holder/BLM/feds etal are on the side of evil/wrong. The majoring of the American colonists in the 1770s did not support the “radicals” opposing King George. Little is 100% clear and if you can not see thru “grey” to make a decision you never will.

  7. Defending my family is my primary concern. So I will stay put and defend family and home.

    If I were a single man without family or other similarly compelling obligations trying me down, it may be different case.

    It would take one hell of a compelling situation to ever make me take up arms other than in direct defense of family, home or friends. The Cliven Bundy situation was a looooong way from compelling, in my own opinion.

    • +.9

      I think it’s compelling, but not nearly compelling enough to even think about travelling, much less putting myself in danger.

      • What is happening in Nevada is really infuriating and a huge power trip… it’s not evil.

        If you honestly believe it’s evil, you need to get out more.

        The .gov not letting a rancher use public land to graze cattle anymore for no good reason and surrounding his house with goons is really fucking ridiculous, not evil.

        Lining mass graves with bodies or imprisoning people for no cause indefinitely is evil.

        EVIL should be stomped out, yes. But I am not willing to quit my job and join a powder keg over what amounts to a huge dick measuring contest between the BLM and a pissed off rancher.

        • If something were ‘evil’ in the history, it would be this: Clark County, the Reids, highly desired the right to grant permission to developers to tear up a few hundred thousand acres of desert, including some Desert Tortoise habitat. To get US agency approval under the regs, they needed to find land which they could claim as “multi-species habitat,” and claim they were “improving” it, at a 3-to-1 ratio to the new construction land. So Reid, in this imagined (and likely) scenario said to BLM/FWS “hey, if you guys declare the Bunkerville Allotment critical but damaged Desert Tortoise and Southwestern Willow Flycatcher habitat, the ranchers will realize they’re screwed.” “We,” meaning Clark County, “will then buy up and retire their leases. That will constitute ‘advancing the preservation of critical threatened multi-species habitat’ and you guys can throw us permits for the 145,000 acre “take” (habitat destruction) we want for a privately-owned commercial solar farm.” That is likely what was proposed, and is exactly what happened.

          The problem, of course, is that Bundy refused to simply admit he was whipped by the (in some sense) corrupt deal, and kept grazing the land. Now the “take” by Clark County/Reid is half done, but there has been no effective preservation and improvement of the Bunkerville Allotment land. So BLM/FWS and Clark County are in a bit of a bind for the moment, and Bundy feels he got screwed by the ecology fascists in collusion with Senator Reid and former CC Councilman R. Reid. From Bundy’s point of view the screwing was evil. From the Reids’ point of view (and that of the ‘we wants us more National Wilderness Preservation’ crowd) the screwing of one rancher (plus the many who threw in the towel) is just the price of glory, a necessary sacrifice of the little people for the greater good.

        • ^ Still not evil. Messed up, yes. But not evil.

          I’ve seen just as bad in the corporate world.

        • It’s absolutely routine in the corporate world. There, however, there are few that can be painted as a Cliven Bundy. Middle manager’s been fired after nineteen years of loyal and satisfactory work? “We can’t expect shareholders to bear the cost of a manager who is no longer needed.” Done. Video from the cubicle simply isn’t as compelling as men in cowboy hats with a background of once-open range land. TV. Heartstrings. Should have had more video of the Reids in Vegas.

    • Took the words out of my mouth, Peter. Priority 1 will be defending my children. Can’t do that if I run off to look for trouble.

  8. Don’t plan on leaving my area. Can have far more fun acting locally and divert resources that otherwise would head to the “hot spot” areas.

  9. Still waiting on the collective to define the line which must not be named nor crossed… Not sure that will ever happen.

  10. I have to agree on Mr.Bundys’ position on not recognizing the U.S. as the rightful manager…owner?? Ummm. Looks like mr.Bundy is just a delinquent taxpayer. No.the Blm shouldnt have used force against the protesters but, it seems the rancher is stalling while grasping at straws.

    • First of all, its far more complicated than that. While it is understandable for folks to want to simplify the situation, the fact of the matter is that Clive Bundy is one of the last men standing. There were about 60 other ranchers pushed out before him. Also, Bundy had paid grazing fees to the state, and had performed numerous improvements on the land at considerable expense. As with many things federal these days, the goal of the federal government was – and is – about control and compliance. The good old days of mediocre service by the government have long since passed us.

      • I keep hearing mention of the other ranchers who were “pushed out” of this tract of land, but I haven’t heard anything from them. I’d like to know their stories. It’s entirely possible, for example, that they stopped ranching there because it wasn’t profitable. I’ve seen photos of the land in question, and it looks drought-stricken and overgrazed. I don’t imagine you’re getting a lot of beef-per-acre out there.

        I’m not ruling out that the government played shenanigans to get rid of those other ranchers, but everything I’ve read and seen so far is just speculation on why Bundy is the last one out there. Where are all the other guys today? Being closer to the situation, their insight could be quite valuable.

        • What former rancher wants to raise his head in shame and tell you how he just walked away “because you can’t beat the Reids and the federal government. Once they declared our ranching leases threatened species habitat, we just skulked away”?

  11. Hero or not, right or wrong, the Bundy bruhaha may at least show that there ARE in fact some who will stand up for what they BELIEVE to be right. A simple show of even partial cohesiveness may embolden others to do the same in the near future if the need arises as well as showing those who would trample the rights of others that WE THE PEOPLE may still be a force to be reckoned with.

    Remember… Those you seek to gain power over through disarmament just so happen to be the group most able to defend against your plotting.

    • Those are great points. In a perverse way, the fact that Bundy isn’t a media-friendly poster boy might work in our (meaning the people of this country) favor. That so many turned out to support him, even though his cause maybe isn’t such a black-and-white case, should send a message to Washington about overreaching their authority. A lot of people are spoiling for a fight with the Feds these days, and this has shown that at least some are willing to step up and put it on the line.

      If Bundy had been a telegenic, easy-to-sympathize-with character instead of a crotchety old coot who claims the Federal government doesn’t exist, it would have been more understandable when folks turned out in support. That they still showed up for this guy shows that for most of them, it’s a lot bigger than this one incident, and this was just a convenient way to express their displeasure with the government.

      • Bundy is definitely not media-friendly. That’s an understatement. I’ve heard him interviewed numerous times, and I can barely understand what he’s saying.

  12. Well sadly I’m not really in any position to help. Due to extensive neurological damage. If it weren’t for that… I’d be there.

  13. I believe in the statement made by Theodore Roosevelt: “Do what you can with what you have where you are.”

  14. Defending my own family, my community, and myself come first. And I’m not 100% of the righteousness of Mr. Bundy’s cause, despite the overreaction of the BLM. The citizens of Nevada however, are within their rights to peacefully protest and to show up armed. Good for them.

    Of course, Internet Keyboard commandos will claim they’re already there in full gear, locked and loaded. So are all of y’all headed to the North Dakota next, to help the Sioux nation recover their lawful, treaty-promised rights to the Black Hills from the Fed?

    • Don’t worry about the noble Indians. They’re taking the country back one five-dollar chip at a time.

    • I was born and raised in the Black Hills of South Dakota. Its a well known fact that the mountain removal project has been 99% completed in North Dakota.

      • Boy, that must be true. I spent around 5 years frequenting ND back in the early 80s, biggest mountain I saw was about 50 feet around and 10 feet high. I guess the removal is almost complete, huh?

  15. As far as possible, I will continue to peacefully protest unconstitutional laws and show that they must not be obeyed. I will be willing to go to court and jail for my beliefs. Unless forced on us, violence will not help us nearly as much as being the voices of reason against emotion (from either side). It might be helpful if all of us googled and carefully read Martin Luther King’s “Letter From a Birmingham Jail.”
    I think there’s good instruction there.

  16. The Department of Interior owns a huge amount of property along the U.S.-Mexico border. The BLM manages it all. No ranchers near there have ever seen the BLM hire snipers, and get militarized law enforcement to line up on our side of the border on BLM managed property aiming their M-16s at the drug pushers and runners, the criminals, and the illegal invaders coming across the border in violation of our sovereignty and laws.

    However, snipers and others would aim loaded M-16s at unarmed reporters and producers, women and children to protect a turtle, which was euthenized due to overpopulating, and a grazing permit debt? If anyone does not think there is not something much more involved on this, you are not thinking sanely. My hopes are that Rep. Darrel Issa and his committee will get to the bottom of the situation and find if there are any links with Sen. Harry Reid and his son Rory and any collusion with BLM.

    • If Issa fails to follow this chain of evidence:

      Then he is just another part of the whitewash….

    • You’re seriously delusional. A group of people openly took up arms to prevent the government from enforcing a law that has nothing to do with them and you expect those people not to come armed? I don’t know what you’re smoking, but it looks to be a bit more than you can handle.

    • The reason they came ready and armed is because Bundy is talking right out of the sovereign citizen manual, which gives a very real reason to think he will put up armed resistance. Which was proved quite effectively by what happened.

      The question of whether the law was right in this case is a different story, but it’s nuts to think that police confronting an armed group wouldn’t be carrying the same weapons we all either own or think we should be able to own.

  17. ” I remain unconvinced that Cliven is the patriot the militia’s looking for.”

    I think this might be because you HAVE to be unconvinced in order to function in your chosen role. Watch this video(it will take eleven minutes of your time) and then please tell me WHY you are not convinced.
    Always remember that an “unbeliever” and a “skeptic” are two very different things…

  18. With James “I’m going to start killing people” Yeager on the case, I’m now more than ever, convinced Bundy is a law breaking loon who knew how to play to the emotions of the “fringe” elements in our society who are just itching for a fight.

    At least Yeager had the integrity actually to go out there and act on his convictions, misguided and misinformed as they are in this case.

    That’s more than can be said for the myriad of keyboard commandos talking about it.

    • I always figure that if there’s ever the moment comes, James Yeager will have already been imprisoned or killed by then. As long as he’s still around and youtubing, it can’t be that bad.

      • Ah. So, like the canary in the coal mine, huh? As long as we’re hearing from him from time to time, all is well. A valid purpose!

    • That’s more than can be said for the myriad of keyboard commandos talking about it.

      I frankly have to laugh whenever some of these guys pretentiously style themselves keyboard commandos and fancy their lame little chiclet slappers can grind out the kind of knife-edged egregious epithets that win kudos in the KeyComm big leagues. Sure, a little practice in their mom’s basement and they slip into delusions of master offensiveness, fantasizing that they can handle a real all-in troll attack from denizens of the dark side out for some free ink. For all their bravado most of them can’t even work the function keys without looking at them, draw a blank as to how to type an umlaut-o, and couldn’t perform a multiple disjoint ‘select’ to save their anonymous lives.

      Many of these wannabees haven’t even taken training from a real K-Commando who’s done it all in the sandbox while simultaneously keeping three kids from throwing the stuff, or one who’s actually been a duty blog moderator when the rat-boys show up posting inappropriate and unsubstantiated quotes from huffpo. They think they’re ready for the blog-wars front lines, but they can’t even trash a troll ten ways to Tuesday without resorting to UrbanSlang cheatsheets. By the time they’ve put together a half-azz’d ad hominem any skilled Al Chideya you’aside word bomber’s on to the next thread. Whatever happened to mandatory one-handed flaming drills? The combat comment save? The tactical page reload? How many of these guys would even know an Israeli-style inline bidirectional format override if it stared out at them from the “Flaming for Dummies” manual? #KiddyComms.

        • I just laugh at those who think they’re ready for real trouble without serious training. Courses. Lots of ’em.

      • That was a brilliant rant, but even after reading it twice i can’t figure out who you are bitching about.

        • I’m making fun of those who call comment writers “keyboard commandos” and thinking “how would they belittle keyboard commandos considering the way they go after the great untrained masses who haven’t traveled for a weeks’ training from ‘the real deal pro’ shooters ” And I gave it a shot. Call it the PTMcC assessment of wannabee keyboard commandos versus “the real deal with interweb wars experience.”

  19. If confiscation began, or the government abused in some manner a citizen, or if the Feds harassed someone (gun-wise).
    Generally, if the government got tyrannical, then I would go to the people’s aid and join the militia.

  20. This is not an example of shtf. This is a group of radicals pointing firearms at law enforcement and it sets a dangerous precedent. It’s hard to look at the facts of this and conclude the government is in the wrong. The cattle that had been confiscated were taken from public land. Regardless, taking up arms against the government is NOT AN ACCEPTABLE COURSE OF ACTION when you disagree with what the government is doing. I’m sure many here will disagree with me here based on the notion that the founders wanted citizens to be able to protect themselves against government tyranny. Please actually consider what I’m saying. The government isn’t infringing his constitutional rights. The land isn’t his. What would this country look like if people took up arms whenever they disagreed with what the federal government is doing? This is no different the people who refuse to pay federal taxes because they disagree with something the government is doing. That’s simply not how this country was designed to work. People who point live weapons at law enforcement because they don’t like the government–who cry ‘tyranny’ whenever the government does something they disagree with–need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. These people are nucking futs.

    • I predict that some day in the future you won’t be able to lick the boot so cleanly when it’s on YOUR neck.

    • This is a group of radicals pointing firearms at citizens and it sets a dangerous precedent.

      There fixed it for you.

      The feds were willing to shoot citizens over grass. The feds were the one’s with people in their sites, not the other way around.

      They spent around 5 million dollars on that little operation to seize his cattle, instead of using that money to buy out his interests.

      It’s the government that was the fist to go aggressive, not the people.

      • Over ‘grass’? No. When people say stuff like that I know they don’t know anything about cattle. Grazing and over-grazing doesn’t just mow the lawn. This was over land… and both the government and private citizens have killed over it many times before.

        • Yep. With nuclear testing in the fifties, into the seventies.

          This is where McCain chirps in that radiation is not harmful.

      • Buy out WHAT interests? The federal court–twice (and two different courts at that)–concluded that he HAS NO INTEREST. Bundy’s entire argument is predicated on the legally incorrect and indefensible belief that the federal government has no lawful existence and cannot own property within the boundaries of a “sovereign state.” He contends that only Nevada, and the County of Clark, can own the land. He is not just wrong, but dead bang wrong. And plain stupid will get him killed.

    • I’ve yet to hear of a reason why the courts cannot simply grant the government a lien on the Bundy’s assets in order to force garnishment of whatever fees/fines are legally owed.

      That’s usually how disputes over money are handled in a civilized nation, where the rule-of-law and respect for individual rights are respected.

      Instead, they came in with military force, pointing guns over this matter.

      Whatever side of this issue anyone is on, it has to be first admitted that we are now at the point in this country where the feds will stick a gun in your face over almost anything.

      If you don’t see a problem with that, well …

      “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
      ― Samuel Adams

      • I agree, and I say once again that the only armed feds (non-military, of course) should be the FBI. Simply revoke the power to run a private army for everyone else, BLM, ATF, IRS, hell, does the EPA have an army, it wouldn’t surprise me. I’ll grant park rangers the ability to carry or have access to scoped bolt .308s, for dangerous critters like grizzlies, but no handguns, no full auto beanshooters, WHY ARE ALL THESE PEOPLE ARMED?? I’ve heard some of them say they might run into dangerous people, well, so might anyone else, like a bank teller or grocery cashier. It is much more likely that they, themselves, will become dangerously arrogant and abusive of their subjects’ rights and freedoms if they are backed up by their machine gun toting drinking buddies.

        • Not to mention Social Security Admin, Agriculture Dept, National Atmospheric and Oceanic Admin–and yes indeed, EPA. Pretty sure everybody with an acronym or initials for a name has a SWAT team.

      • I guess you don’t know much about collections. A lien is just a piece of paper and doesn’t do jack. The government has a lien against Bundy, and against the cattle that are trespassing on its land; so far that lien hadn’t done it any good; instead it has been intentionally ignored. Often times, asset will be seized by the Sheriff/Marshall and sold at public auction. That’s what happens in foreclosures every day of the business week. That’s what happens when businesses fail and stop paying their bills, and the person owed money sues and gets a judgment. Very civilized. I have been waiting to get paid on a case for nearly six years, a case in which the client has a judgment lien against the debtor’s assets, but collection has been stymied in probate after the debtor died.
        And if you are armed and try to stop the sheriff? Shoot him and you die or go to jail for the rest of your life. And the deputies will seize your guns and sell those too. Don’t worry, I won’t shed any tears over you.

        • Without stooping to insult or demean you or your experience, I’ll simply note that I have had a lien filed against me, and I have had liens granted against others.

          In no case was it necessary for anyone to point guns at someone else to gain satisfaction, regardless of the agreement of one party or the other to comply. Accounts can be – and regularly are – seized.

          I sympathize with your cause, waiting 6 years to paid what is owed seems interminable.

          Nonetheless … no amount of money owed is just cause to threaten the use of military force against a private citizen. This is what our government DOES now, with far too frightening regularity.

    • “taking up arms against the government is NOT AN ACCEPTABLE COURSE OF ACTION when you disagree with what the government is doing”. So, by your statement, the American Revolution was wrong?? Your statement is exactly the same thought process that landed millions of Jewish people in the camps and ovens.

      While I question some of the actions by Mr. Bundy there are a lot of people who say that there are no more “free” Waco’s and Ruby Ridges. By their actions they have proven to stand against another slaughter.

      BTW, where are all of the animal rights folks??? The BLM was involved in the death of this man’s cattle and not one peep the PETA????????

        • Yeah, the number is unspecified at present. They are still finding them here and there.

          Gunshot wounds. .40 cal, I betcha.

      • PETA like animals that run wild and free, and that have PR appeal.

        The fact that 100% of those cattle could never have existed in the wild is irrelevant to them.

  21. The Branch Davidians were portrayed as gun smuggling child molesters and the Weavers were portrayed almost as badly by the mainstream media. In this case the media tried to just ignore it and hope it went away and that didn’t work out so well for them. The next time there is a ‘standoff’ expect to see way more media coverage with Waco style propaganda about whoever it is that the government is targeting. Even with the media blackout in Bundy’s case, there is still a lot of disinformation that got out. But having said that, even with the benefit of knowing all of the facts, this case isn’t as clear cut as it would have to be for me to take up arms and go rushing to his defense. While it’s true that he was being pushed around by an overreaching government department who brought a ridiculous amount of force to remove trespassing cattle, there were other paths he could have taken to avoid the whole thing in the first place. If I’m going to die in defense of liberty it’s going to have to be a better example of tyranny.

  22. If the factoid is true that the BLM over the past 20 or so years has essentially ran 50 or so neighboring ranches into bankruptcy (to the point the BUndy ranch is the FINAL ranch in the county) then I’m on the side of Bundy.

    Second point is WTF is with the fact that fed gov owns 85% of Nevada. As has been pointed out in other articles maybe it’s time that the fed gov be open auctioning off 1% of their land holdings per year until they reach a reasonable goal (i.e. the average of the U.S fed lands which is in the single digits IIRC).

  23. Now is an excellent time to quietly gather supplies. Ammo prices on all but .22 LR are low. The government is busy doing non-descript spying, spending more money than they take in, and printing money to cover the difference. Make no mistake, dirty deals have been made in the presence of a national debt near $17,000,000,000,000.00. We cannot as a nation continue to spend more than taxes bring in. Further, our rates of taxation are huge. We already pay too much and our government clearly wants more.

    I am concerned about TTAG readers who defend the ATF and the BLM. Everyone here has broken some law, and many more will be made “illegal” when an expensive pen signs an unconstitutional law on a mahogany desk in the office of a politician. Many in CT and NY are already felons for continuing to own their lawfully-acquired property.

    I’ve gotten into trouble at work for my support of the 2nd Amendment, and I’ll get into even bigger trouble when I refuse to obey an unconstitutional order to confiscate firearms from responsible owners.
    If the federal government stays on its current trajectory of control and compliance, it is simply a matter of time before the hard decisions become personal. Those looking for the perfect cause from the perfect leader will stand idly by.

    However, the government can indeed stand down when faced with a unified force of armed citizens. It is clear that the desire to rule and control by fear is one of their weapons in compliance. If Clive Bundy had acted alone, he would have been taken down quite easily. It is quite another thing to spark an armed confrontation against hundreds of citizens.

    You’ll stand much more strongly if you get ready now. I am an overall peaceful individual and will not defend or attack unless I am faced with the threat of lethal force. I pray that day does not come from the government, and will continue to seek peaceful solutions until no other option is available. If the government decides it is in the business of seizing property and pointing guns, then it is a time to stand together or fall together.

    Hmmm, my computer just started running slowly.

      • On an unrelated note, I can do 18-20 pull-ups and 80 push ups in a minute.

        Nope, didn’t join that one, but will continue to support pro-2A gun manufactures, businesses, and causes. Ares Armor, for instance, gave the middle finger to the ATF. I still support them, and purchase their products. I just purchased an Ares nickel boron BCG for $109 and charging handle for $45 for my 300 AAC upper. As far as the raid, it was over before I knew about. I would have physically made it over there to protest if it was feasible to do so.

        Since we still have a somewhat peaceable society, peaceful and financial support of pro-gun causes is the order of the day. I gave roughly $500 last year to the NRA, GOA, Rand Paul, Steve Stockamn, etc.
        So I can put my money where my mouth is. There are other things that I won’t mention here as well.

        (Delayed response due to computer re-start and software security stuff)

    • TTAG is the firearms/RKBA blog with the highest readership. About 2 million per month, if I recall correctly. There are paid trolls on this site, that is certain. Cass Sustein outright told us.

        • Me? Nothing. How about you? I just don’t get your sanctimonious tone. Acur81 was in no way acting like some keyboard commando. There is nothing pleasant about civil war or armed conflict. It should be avoided at all costs. Unfortunately, it is pretty much certainty.

          There has never been, in the history of our short time on this planet, a government that paid its national debt. Fractional reserve banking coupled with the exponential curve means that the outcome is baked in the cake from the start. Nations always employ war and deflation when the final bill comes due. There is a reason many of the founders were particularly disdainful of central banks and standing armies. The feds are about to embark on an epic unicorn chase of every single dollar in sight in order to pay the $17 trillion dollar debt (on paper. What is it, over $100 trillion in total unfunded liabilities?). They will try to tax everything and anything.

          Why do you think they make it difficult and unpleasant to travel? Why does every podunk town in America need a SWAT team and an MRAP? Why are we hearing about all of these ammo purchases by every single alphabet soup agency? Why do foreign banks now refuse to service U.S. citizens accounts? If you do not think that there is some form of reckoning on the horizon, you have not been paying attention sir.

    • Accur81, you are without a doubt my favorite cop. And Pope Paul is without a doubt my favorite huckster.

  24. I would definitely deploy for gun rights, BUT, not for a joke like Bundy. He brought this on himself for over 20 years. Yes, the BLM came in very heavy handed but I have no respect for that man.

    • I read this as “I won’t support (insert name) because he’s been asking for it for 20 years. Sure the (insert agency) came in with massive force but I can’t respect someone like that.”

      Substitute: Waco/ATF, Ruby Ridge/USMS, or more recently any story regarding marijuana and CPS.

      Sounds like you have a pretty universal easy excuse there buddy.

  25. Yes, to the right place, for the right reason.

    As someone who has deployed during the Iraqi Freedom and did Counter Narco deployments in Central and South America, I assure you, I will never deploy to BS places for BS reasons again.

    • I tend to agree. I think that Bundy was trying to turn his personal beef into a cause, rather than a cause into a personal belief.

      • I’m Switzerland in the Bundy thing.

        Things start getting froggy in CT, we’ll talk.

        But, grazing cows and desert turtles, not so much.

  26. The problem with clarity is the Feds left immediately after the story of reid, his son and the Chinese and the solar energy tax credits came out..

    Then reids son says the guy is a lawbreaker and everyone must follow the law. Just like his dad always does. Theres a movie with Robert DiNero, Casino. In the movie, he is denied a casino gambling permit by the State Board, run by reid. The subtexts state it was reid and he is accused of being
    ‘comped ? sp” for gambling losses, other things, etc. reid has never challenged what was stated.

    Its murky but you have to make a call or not.

    reid is less than honest. Why they vote for him is beyond me.

  27. I think its hilarious how serious these Bundy supporters take themselves. They really think they somehow ‘beat’ the federal government by using children as human shields? LOL what a bunch of cowards. I mean at least normal cowards would in general never use a woman or a child as a way stay safe. These aren’t just normal cowards these are gun loving cowards. Is THAT really how all gun lovers are?? because it sure seems that way. “We gonna put our women out front so everybody sees them shooting our women” WOW! what a terrible group of people.

    • Bundy didn’t do or say anything like putting the women and children up front. It was former Arizona sheriff Richard Mack who talked about it. And of course it never happened.

      But never mind. Actually shooting the women and children would have been fine with you. Because government.

      • Bundy didn’t discourage it, or having children there, when he was the one up there with a microphone going on rants. I helped make this government, as did my parents, their parents, their parents, and their parents came from another country. I guess I don’t see why I would start crying and causing an armed uproar over paying my bills, but then again I’m not a gun owner so there’s many things I differ from people on 🙂 I guess Bundy IS an outstanding member of society after all just look at him, with his refusing to accept basic laws and all, what a hero!!

      • oh my gosh thank you so much! I knew my invitation from a gun owner extended to this community as well. God Bless America (and open source software!)

      • I’m a 26 year old computer programmer and certified gun expert from Colorado Springs, Colorado. Nice to meet you.

        • “certified gun expert”

          Help me out here, James, I don’t play video games… What level is that on Call of Duty?

        • Seriously, exactly what is a “certified gun expert”? And who did the “certifying” ?

      • No time for video games with all these laws to help change 🙂 I don’t even have time to write code video games its a shame! To answer your question, there was blood involved with my gun certification. Not sure how else one would become a gun expert. Maybe a video game….but that would be a video game. Are you having problems distinguishing the difference between the two? because you might want to see somebody about that 🙂

  28. I don’t think ‘Ol Cliven is the hill to die on, but there is a good reason to go show up anyway, and that is to get enough eyeballs on the feds to keep them from just murdering him, his family, his family’s dogs, and any passersby in a fifty mile radius.

  29. Bundy doesn’t need to be an actual patriot hero. We live in a world of perceptions, and if the perception is that of him as patriot, that’s all well and good. He’s decent and strong-willed.

    So what’s the problem? :/

  30. Bundy has become too much of a media focus, and rally point for Alex Jones. There are so many stories from so many sources now, and none of it matches up.

    At this point, that iconic picture of the guy on the bridge with the AR.. I wonder if he even knows why he was there, or why he would have been pulling that trigger.

    But, should the scat become airborne, over this or any other reason… I would have to do a lot of serious evaluation. Starting with whether or not there was anything actually happening. We get doused in so much disinformation and so many half truths, it’s getting too hard to tell them from the real thing.

    I read stuff on Bundy for the first few days after it became news. I was on the second day of news before I even knew that this was a decades old standoff. A day later before I found out that he owed over a million in grazing fees. At first, I stood behind him, supported the idea of Cliven Bundy that the media had given me.

    Now… Now I just don’t know. And that worries me more than the idea of revolution. The idea that we have so many who would take up arms in revolt, without knowing, or worse, without caring WHY.

    • You should definitely stay home and watch it on TV, then. Stock up on popcorn, because the shelves will be stripped. We have no use for sunshine and holiday patriots. And we will forget that you were our countryman.

      • Seriously?
        My concern is knowing “Why?.

        In the Bundy Ranch ordeal, NOTHING is clear. So no, I would not be ready to pull that trigger.

        If it were something clear cut… some oppressive or tyrannical force looming.. Certainly. Government mowing down unarmed civilians? Sure thing.

        Joining a revolution for the sake of revolting? Pulling a trigger without a solid, justified reason? Killing other humans over some third party financial dispute? Not even.

        I apologize if I am reading you wrong, but you are coming off as somebody who is itching to fight, not for the cause, but simply to fight.

        If you are willing to fight, to kill, without asking “Why?”, I’m not sure I count you among my countrymen. And I’m not so sure you’ve been too honest on line 11F.

    • Why? That’s the polarizer. Honestly, we aren’t going to all agree on why. If the Revolutionary War had 3% of the population and the cause was plain then…you do the math for all the bad Intel and factions vying for control. Even with 100 million of us I doubt that a substantial number in one area will band together for the same reason until after much blood is shed. The information and opinions differ too greatly for there to be cohesiveness and unity prior to some sort of large scale atrocities.

      The “why” needs to be simpler, more obvious and less optional. We were able to pick and choose regarding the Bundy event. You can’t pick and choose your neighborhood or doorstep if trouble on a large scale rolls your way.

      • Kind of reminds me of the story of a recently captured Confederate soldier, the Yanks asked him why he was fighting against them and he said, “Because you’re here”.

      • That is very true. And in that case, I would not see it as a choice.
        And that is how I feel it should be.

        Taking up arms, is the LAST option.

  31. My level of paranoia has risen to the point where I DO wonder whether we’ll have this mode of communication if shit goes south. We’re pretty damn dependent on this channels and it’s a plug that could be easily yanked out of the wall.

    • I’m thinking cell phones and smart guns would get immediately shut down. The feds are also looking for a way to remotely disable civilian passenger cars and trucks. Disrupt the communications and supply lines of the enemy. Classic warfare strategy with modern updates.

    • Communications beyond the evening news on TV shouldn’t be necessary. If you need to discuss the offense to get worked up enough to fight and kill and die, then the cause is not there, yet, sit down and shut up.

  32. A good question. My best answer is “I’ll know it when I see it”. Obama on the South Lawn surrounded by men with machine guns, tanks in the background, declaring himself “Emperor For Life” of the newly declared West African nation of Obamaville, and I am gone, kit or no. Who tries to stop me from getting there will be engaged, whatever the outcome. I will be expecting 20 or 30 million of my closest friends to join me, but I’m going regardless. If it takes a lot of coordination, I’ll be staying home, its bullfeathers. It has to be obvious to anyone, even the unarmed will be going.

    • You realize that damn near 35% of the US population would CHEER if Obama did that, right? This country is in pretty deep trouble. I’m not sure it can even be fixed within a few election cycles anymore.

      • You might be right, but that 35% would be firmly in the “unarmed subjects” category, wouldn’t it?

  33. I don’t see the need for Clive to be a patriot. I support the people that pack up and go to help him because I don’t want to see another Waco or Ruby Ridge. When the gov decides that they need to roll out the big guns for someone that hasn’t been shown to be violent there is a major risk there.
    My question is, if he owes them so much money why didn’t they just go after his ranch? Why take his livestock and claim they’ll be even? IMO it just shows that the goal wasn’t reclamation of funds, it was removal of cattle under the threat of lawsuit by the eco terrorists.

  34. I think Bob Wright said it best when asked whether he would actually activate his unit and go to the scene of another potential Waco in another state:

    “Why would I want to do that? There’s plenty of you federal sonsabitches around here.”

  35. Here’s the reverse question. We have a duly elected gov. in place. We don’t like barry and company but they’re our legal gov.

    What if the military or other group attempted a coup? What if barry and slow joe took to the airwaves begging armed Americans to stand and fight for them, our legal gov. ? Would you?

    • I would tell Joe to stand on the balcony of the WH and fire two rounds out of his double barrel shotgun. Sorry, just the way I feel. Anybody who would try a coup against Barack and Co. would be acting no more lawlessly than BO does on a regular basis.

  36. If the s hits the fan I’m just going to the Fallout:NV thing where i reinvent the Roman Legions. Time to pillage and rape my way across the nation.

  37. +1 Larry. We’re ARMED. The 35% aren’t. That’s all I have to say about that. I’m not going to war for Bundy. My first priority is my family.

  38. I am not entirely sure. I am thinking there are two reasons to deploy:
    (1) Immoral use of force.
    — OR —
    (2) Wholesale suspension of infrastructure/rights.

    The Bundy situation seemed to fall under immoral use of force and suspension of rights. Immoral use of force included tasing, taking down, and/or arresting onlookers. And suspension of rights included the highly restricted “1st Amendment Area”. Combine them and it was time for some to deploy.

    Having put more thought into it, I am rapidly arriving at a standard that involves wholesale suspension of infrastructure and/or rights. If a government agency shuts down electricity, landline phone, cell phone, or Internet access in an area, that is an act of war against the American People in my book. Why? Because a government that shuts down any or all of those (electricity, phone, Internet) has shut down free speech, freedom of the press, and freedom of association … as well as freedom to help each other. (Shutting down those systems inhibits people from helping others with personal and medical emergencies.)

  39. A lot of people here haven’t lived during a revolution. Let me tell you a story. I was born and lived in Romania during communism. You may be familiar with Ceausescu who died during Christmas of 1989 by firing squad. I was a young Lt during that time. Revolutions start easily if the right conditions are there. Romanian one started when the LEO tried to remove a protestant pastor of Hungarian ethnicity from the parish house. Which by the way was owned by the state. With a proper court order. Hardly any citizen will identify with this guy. That initially was protested by a small group of parishioners. That thing snowballed to a full on protest. In couple of days the city was free. Maybe that would have been the end of it and the leaders of these people would have been arrested or killed like in the past. However the hubris of the communist leader did no know any boundary. They ordered a rally to support the current government. There at some point some fireworks were thrown into the crowd. Nobody claimed responsibility. The rally turned bad due people being scared that they are fired upon. Majority went home. Through the night a small band of youngsters hold on, build a barricade and burned and destroyed property. The next morning, tens of thousands streamed to the center of the capital. The military joined them. All was over in the next hour.
    The moral of this is that it doesn’t matter if the actions of government are legal or not, all it takes is for people to be fed up with the government to spark a revolution. And when is happening is happening fast. Less than a week. All I can say is that I feel that similar conditions are building up, the same way I felt in the beginning of 1989 in Romania.
    keep your powder dry.

  40. To Quote a movie on such things…. I must say….

    “Assembly Speaker: Our first order of business —

    Simms: And our last if we vote a levy.

    Assembly Speaker: Order! Order! Mr. Simms, you do not have the floor. Our first order of business will be an address by Colonel Harry Burwell of the Continental Army. Colonel Burwell….

    Colonel Burwell: You all know why I’m here. I’m not an orator. And I would not try to convince you of the worthiness of our cause. I’m a soldier and we are at war. From Philadelphia we expect a declaration of independence. Eight of the thirteen colonies have levied money in support of a Continental Army. I ask that South Carolina be the ninth.

    Simms: Massachusetts and Virginia may be at war, but South Carolina is not.

    Colonel Burwell: This is not a war for the independence of one or two colonies, but for the independence of one nation.

    Wilkins: And, uh, yes, what nation is that?

    Howard: An American nation.

    Wilkins: There is no such nation and to speak of one is treason.

    Howard: We are citizens of an American nation and our rights are being threatened by a tyrant three thousand miles away.

    Benjamin Martin: Would you tell me, please, Mister Howard, why should I trade one tyrant three thousand miles away for three thousand tyrants one mile away?

    An elected legislature can trample a man’s rights as easily as a King can.

    Colonel Burwell: Captain Martin, I understood you to be a Patriot.

    Benjamin Martin: If you mean by “Patriot,” am I angry about taxation without representation? Why, yes, I am. Should the American colonies govern themselves independently? I believe they can and they should. But if you’re asking me am I willing to go to war with England? Well then the answer is most definitely no!

    Middleton: This from the same Captain Benjamin Martin whose fury was so famous during the Wilderness Campaign.

    Benjamin Martin: I was intemperate in my youth.

    Middleton: Temperance can be a convenient disguise for fear.

    Colonel Burwell: Mister Middleton, I fought with Captain Martin under Washington in the French and Indian War. There is not a man in this room, or anywhere, for that matter, to whom I would more willingly trust my life.

    Benjamin Martin: There are alternatives to war. We take our case before the King. We plead with him.

    Colonel Burwell: Yes, we tried that.

    Benjamin Martin: Well then we try again and again, if necessary, to avoid a war.

    Colonel Burwell: Benjamin, I was at Bunker Hill. The British advanced three times and we killed over seven hundred of them at point blank range, and still they took the ground. That is the measure of their resolve. Now, if your principles dictate independence, then war is the only way. It has come to that.

    Benjamin Martin: I have seven children. My wife is dead. Now who’s to care for them if I go to war?

    Colonel Burwell: Wars are not fought only by childless men.

    Benjamin Martin: Granted. But mark my words. This war will be fought not on the frontier or on some distant battlefield, but amongst us — among our homes. Our children will learn of it with their own eyes. And the innocent will die with the rest of us. I will not fight. And because I will not fight, I will not cast a vote that will send others to fight in my stead.

    Colonel Burwell: And your principles?

    Benjamin Martin: I’m a parent. I haven’t got the luxury of principles.”

    I will say that in the event of real war, the majority of people, even those that are fervent patriots, will in fact stay home. The fighting and dying will be done by the 3%. Or less. When I served during the Iraq war, my battalion commander would always give speeches explaining that out of the population of the United States, LESS than 1/10th, OF 1%, serve in the military. That’s just the military as a whole, not including combat MOS’s. Such was the case in the revolution. Such will be the case in the next war on home soil, should it be the Government vs the people, or a foreign aggressor.

    • Not to step on anybody’s toes, but, 0.1% of 315,000,000 is 315,000.

      There are literally millions of ex-military veterans out there already, and a grand total of 1.4 million active duty personnel and another 1.6 million reservists. I think it’s just a little bit more than 0.1%. Just sayin’.

  41. Unfortunately, due to budgetary restraints, I cannot venture beyond North Carolina.

    Woe be unto the dumb sons-a-bitches that try that silly, Goose-steppin’ bullshit here, though, I tell ya’.

    Defend This House.

  42. Clive Bundy is a common thief, and I won’t stand with criminals.

    I will stand with anyone who has a just cause, but thievery from public coffers is not it.

  43. For all you eggheads that don’t know,I live in Nevada and that whole Bundy thing is about Harry Reid’s son Rory,trying to obtain that BLM land for a Chinese solar energy company and Rory Reidstands to loose billions.The so called federal judge who ruled against Bundy was appointed by Reid( bought and paid for) and all those so called BLM enforcers are Blackwater.So don’t start dissing Bundy yet as this whole thing is unraviling as to what it is REALLY about,corporate greed illegal overseas property sales and The most powerful Senator doing what he always does ,underhanded land deals in Nevada by turning public lands into private lands when it’s profitable.He has already sold the Chinese Nevada property for way under market value in the past and here is another example of legal corruption of a bought and paid for judge deciding against a private citizen who was in debted to Reid! hmmmm?..

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