AR-15 pistols are the workaround for those who want to play with short barreled rifles but either don’t have the tax stamp yet for the full version or aren’t interested in the whole 6 month wait and $200 donation to Uncle Sam. As we found out last year having a stock on your gun really makes a difference in terms of accuracy, and this new product aims to give shooters the same kind of stability without all that legal hoosafuzz. The catch: the gun rests against your chin, not your shoulder. So it’s not for those with a glass jaw, I guess . . .
While this may seem to be bypassing the spirit of the law, what keeps this thing legal is the full definition of a rifle and a handgun. A rifle is designed to be fired from the shoulder, and a handgun isn’t. Since you’re resting the gun against your chin (something no one in their right minds thought of when drafting the legislation) it slips right through the loophole, allowing you to have yourself a stamp-free SBR. As long as you don’t mind that whole “recoiling through your jaw” thing.
The designer claims that its not uncomfortable, despite the video evidence that seems to point to the contrary. We’ve already put in the request for a T&E sample, so we’ll let you know how they work when it comes in.
Major case of out-of-the-box thinking :).
In .223 it shouldn’t be too bad. In 9mm it would rock. I’d like to see it with a 450SOCOM 🙂 for that “instant hockey player” look.
Thanks for the kind words, Jim. Not too many people are thinking that way.
It’s designed for 6.8SPC on down, and would be especially nice for 9mm, you’re right. And for the people saying, “Just SBR it and be done with it!” I understand where you’re coming from. However, there are several states that don’t allow SBRs. Like Michigan, where I live. Also, you can conceal carry an AR/MP5/AK pistol, so this product makes those firearms more useful to civilians/security. Finally, once you add the $200 tax, engraving, wait time for OK from the BATFE, having to request written permission to take it across state lines, and having a ton of paperwork to sell it…an SBR is a lot more work to own than a lowly pistol.
I’ll be posting videos soon with reactions by everyday shooters who try out the NSN for the first time. I think you’ll be surprised. So far, everyone who’s tried it has either liked it and immediately wanted it, or said they were happy with their 9 pound, 16″ barreled rifles, and could live without it. We’ll see what the market decides with our pre-order.
Thanks again to TTAG for posting this. You guys are great.
I’ll say it again…for those that can’t get an SBR, like me…I say it’s a good idea if it truly helps accuracy with an AR pistol, and doesn’t rearrange your face after thousands of rounds…BUT…$250???? Really? Come on man. I’d perhaps pay $100 to try it, but I’ll NEVER shell out $250 for that thing. IMO, that price is somewhat of an insult. To ask someone to shell out 1/4 (or more) of the cost of their actual AR pistol for your device, is crazy.
I understand your concern. I can explain my pricing strategy. Here’s what I have to work with:
-Most importantly: what value does this item bring to shooters? Since it makes pistols as potentially effective as SBRs, allows people to conceal them, doesn’t required extra registration and engraving and headaches, and there is nothing else like it on the market, I see it as very valuable.
-What’s my cost of materials? Since I’m keeping all manufacturing in Michigan, the investment casting tooling is expensive and the 17-4PH stainless steel unit costs are high; add in tooling for the polyurethane foam pad and the cost to make each one, and I’ll spend a large chunk of change to get this to customers.
-What level of customer service do I want to provide? High.
-May I potentially face lawsuits? Sure, so I’ve hired the best attorneys I could find, and I’d like to build up a war chest in case something happens.
-What insurance is required? Considering this is a novel invention and a firearms accessory, insurance is expensive.
-Finally, where does the part fit in in the overall firearms accessory market? I compare it to similar, highly specialized parts, like the SlideFire stock and high-end triggers.
Do other people agree with your statement? Yes, sir. But, some other people think it’s worth it, and they have pre-ordered it. Don’t know if I can change your mind, but I hope the explanation helps. Let me know what you think. -Neal
…add in tooling for the polyurethane foam pad…
Is it really so expensive to cut foam that it is worth mentioning? How much does a stencil and a hot wire cost? Or outsourcing it to a shop with a laser cutter? When I used to work in a shop making outdoor enclosures for cell sites, we would cut weather stripping and insulation foam with a utility knife.
I compare it to similar, highly specialized parts, like the SlideFire stock and high-end triggers.
That is really a apple and oranges comparison. The former allows you to convert your AR/AK rifle in to something which would otherwise cost over $10,000. The latter is actually very useful and in high demand. I dont see this ever being in high demand, at best it seems like it has marginal utility, and a $200 SBR tax stamp is less than what youre asking. Sure there are some states like mine where you can’t own a SBR, but even there I don’t see there being a significant demand for this. Good luck pursuing your dream though.
@matt: the pads are injection molded using a three part tool, a silicone insert, and two hand placed nylon rivets. This way, there’s an integral skin to the foam, the “bounce” rate is customized to actually dissipate the forces involved, and the part can be easily attached and detached to the stainless steel bracket. Prototype tooling was several thousand dollars, to give you an idea of the cost. Production tooling will be more.
I again applaud your effort and I understand your thoughts/points…but with all due respect Neal; YOUR thoughts/belief on how much your product is worth is about as comparable as some ugly bird on a dating site claiming she’s “athletic and toned”. 😉 Who cares what she thinks…fat is fat…and your price to this perspective customer (that happens to be your best demographic – fairly well off 40 year old with money to burn on gun accessories, living in CA where SBR’s are not possible, who owns an AR pistol), is indeed FAT/UGLY. I can easily afford it, but wouldn’t pay that price. I jest with this analogy after some good Napa Valley wine-tasting but my point is; I don’t see/believe the “significant increase in accuracy” on a platform that already has limited capability/range…nor am I willing to shell out $250 to try it. $100 or $125? Maybe. I can already quickly and easily cheek weld my AR pistol and decimate targets at the effective range of the AR pistol. With practice, I’ve become as good with the platform as I thought was possible – and I don’t believe your device is going to radically increase said abilities (whether you choose to believe or not). Unfortunately IME, inventors sometimes become so enamored with their own designs/products, that they become blinded by their own hype and marketing positioning. It doesn’t however mean that the hype is all true, nor that their potential market will agree. Ok, so a few people have pre-ordered. Big deal. Will enough pay that price to keep you in business or make you a rich guy? I seriously doubt it. I wish you well but a penny beyond $125 or $150, I wouldn’t buy. (This is coming from someone that likely spent $10k in firearms and accessories purchases in the last year). Take care.
Check your email — we’d love to get one for T&E.
Really? Your chin? Please don’t sign me up for that…
Accept that your AR pistols suck, or SBR them. Don’t beat yourself up (literally) with them!
The shooter in the vid looks like he’s a cow chewing his cud as he fires.
Designed by a grabber. Any warning stickers on that sucker warning denture wearers? Could also be marketed as an (semi)automatic gum chewer. I’m LMAO thinking about how you convince someone to invest in this to get it to market. Nice accessory for DHS though.
Is a diversionary tactic. While firing your first 3 to 5 rd burst the recoil shoots your dentures out at high speed directly at the BG causing him to duck and wonder WTF as you are able to place more precise fire on the BG as he is watching your bright white choppers gracefully soar through the air!!!!
lmao well done.
WTF? Ok, show of hands, who thought this was a good idea? Something tells me this is the work of a group of out of work dentists and orthodontists.
Well it would save me having to go to the dentist!! Probably a little more efficient if mounted on a .308 AR instead of .223.
.223 wouldn’t get all the tooth out where .308 probably would!!
Just might get that “Chiseled Chin ” movie star look after a few hundred rounds and some reconstructive surgery!! LOL!
IMHO… Just pay the darn $200 and wait if you’re lucky enough to live in a free state. If not deal with it or better yet vote with your feet and move… This is creative though (Their Mom I said something nice…).
Huh, interesting…wouldn’t mind trying it at least. As far as cheek welding an AR pistol, it’s not uncomfortable at all…I already find it very easy to shoot my AR pistol with the cheek weld. After a bit of practice I’ve become surprisingly accurate at reasonable (common tactical) distances with it. A very compact and effective weapon IMO. This is not likely going to add much more accuracy to the platform…but may alter one’s the jaw/tooth platform after thousands of rounds.
For those that say AR15 pistols suck, the missing center of my target at 25 yards during my last range trip says otherwise.
For those in states where SBR’s are a no-go, it’s a workable (and the only) solution.
For those in states where SBR’s are a no-go, it’s a workable (and the only) solution.
One word, bullpup.
bullpup, and the usual idiot whine that goes with it:
“do you really want the chance of a KB next to your face”
“bullpups are not for lefties”
“bullpup triggers suck”
Use a carbine length buffer tube on your pistol and a cheek weld feels natural. My barrel is 11.5 inches, a 7.5 inch barrel is a flame thrower and would not be suggested for a cheek weld. I can hit steel plates at 100 yards easy.
I’m building an AR with a bolt release that you operate by slamming the stock into your crotch. Anyone want to try it?
I went to their website…they are offering a $249 pre-order price for it? Oh please. Ridiculous. Maybe $100 but $250? I can see they aren’t going to do well with this project.
Ok this is the American dream folks.
This was thinking outside the box. This is to allow us as shooters to buy something that we might not. Normally buy or shoot. I personally don’t have a reason for an SBR but why not.
They have clearly for better or worse come up with something that keeps us gun owners legal. For that they should be commended.
Now the proof will be on the pudding wont it.
If they fail then they fail, but they got out there and did something.
Hopefully they will hold their own and come up with other ideas as well.
I never saw the point of the AR pistols–and this device demonstrates why they are nothing but silly toys. There is a reason that rifles and pistols are not allowed to breed.
They are fun. I shot some guys Sig 556 pistol with a Magpul AFG. The trigger wasnt what I expected, and it would have been a lot better with a sling. I wouldn’t want to drop $1,000 on a range toy, but if I had a bunch of extra cash I would pick up a KelTec PLR16, or ideally a Gwinn Firearms/Bushmaster Arm Pistol (bullpup AR-18). Its even designed to be shot like a gangsta
Hope he’s using a mouth guard to keep his teeth intact.
Would it still be legal to create a shoulder harness with a pocket in it, that you could strap to your shoulder…….kinda like the way that a shoulder holster works?
What IF the stock part was attached to the shooter instead of the gun?
Patent it. I’d buy it
While I commend the innovation, I feel like the jaw is not the best place for attachment. You are opening your company up to a lot of lawsuits from people claiming that your product caused them dental problems, neck issues, persistent headaches, broken noses, or TMJ problems. There are just too many liabilities in that area of the body. The box had better come with 100 warning labels until it is positively proven that in mass use it is safe for the general public.
I think I will just use a push pull process. I like the out of the box thinking. Maybe it will lead to something more appealing.
Shot one before, and as my first try at an AR. Wasn’t bad at all in 5.56. A sling helps.
A quick note to the owner of this company- The price is more than a frickin tax stamp! It’s insulting, given the simplicity of the product. It isn’t machined from platinum, is it? How can you justify that price?
The biggest problem:
NFA tax- $200
This thing- $250
I hope it succeeds but I know it won’t.
What about a ‘bit and bridal’ designed for a tiny horse?
Wouldn’t that be much more secure?
I’m undergoing jaw surgery in a few weeks, in part to address TMJ issues, and I have got to say:
What a terrible, terrible idea. The temporomandibular joint is probably the worst joint in the body to load in any abnormal capacity. After the completion of osseous skeletal growth, the condyle of the mandible remains relatively active, remodeling to adapt to internal and external environmental changes. To purposefully design a product to shock it in a identical repeated fashion is literally asking for maladaptive remodeling and articular disk dislocation, and the subsequent and likely permanent TMJ symptoms that will follow.
I hope you have some good lawyers.
This is the deal killer for a product like this. TMJ syndrome is no joke as you know and chronic conditions can be a lifetime of pain and expense. I would be surprised if anyone would write product liability insurance for it without waiving coverage for TMJ and cervical spine issues.
Creative Neal but good lawyers tell you to buy more insurance which creates a deep pocket for other lawyers. Limited volume product appeal and high risk of user injury is a bad combination for profitability. Better luck on your next product.
Everyone seems to be forgetting that it costs more than just $200 to get an a SBR conversion done . Possibly compare the price of either gun (rifle to pistol, deal you get), the cost to actually SBR the rifle (parts, labor), then your stamp fee, postage, and cost to work up paperwork. So in reality its cheaper to get this than go through all the wait time and paperwork. Also, you wouldn’t have to carry around a copy of the stamp and you’d be able to cross state lines with it. All that being said..I personally dont like the fact of having all that energy onto your chin with a high powered round….. One would have to think about possible injury over time.. (jaw and neck). Like it was said in other posts.. 9mm would be great…. I would rather use it for a .22 round.
If I already have an AR pistol I get my stamp then I put a stock on it that I know will work and I am at $300 to 400 invested in the conversion assuming that I don’t have a spare stock already. Either way you have to buy all the other stuff you listed for either set up they way I see it
Im confused at your comparison…. Not sure you fully read my post.
What is the ATF saying about this? I think that is a major factor being glossed over, given how the slidefire stock had to jump through hoops to get to the market.
what hoops did it have to jump through?
“the letter” you are probably thinking about was procured by the company post-sales, not pre. they did it to put all the nay-sayers to rest, it was not a prerequisite for sales.
I’ll pass on this one. Frankly, I’d much rather have a sling that fits tightly around my chest with a built-in “cup” to rest the end of the pistol buffer in … Just sayin’.
That’s using your head… or not…
David Tubb did something like this with a rifle once, not sure if he still uses it or not or was just an experiment.
Any chance this thing creates an AOW?