“Authorities on Thursday killed a man suspected of shooting dead four people a day earlier in separate incidents at a barbershop and a car wash in neighboring upstate New York towns,” reuters.com reports. This after not one but two previous shoot-outs wherein Kurt Meyers avoided ventilation and escaped police. We don’t know how many rounds were expended in their attempt to eliminate Mr. Meyers—any more than we know why Reuters decided to mention the SAFE Act in their coverage of the shotgun showdown. OK, we know that one. So tanks for that and let’s turn to the The Big Apple po-po, two members of which shot a Brooklyn teen yesterday, much to the consternation of local residents . . .
NYPD PR told the Times that Kimani Gray threatened officers with a revolver. Maybe something to do with the fact that they weren’t wearing uniforms? Anyway, clock this post-Empire State Building shootout (nine bystanders wounded) on New York’s Finest’s marksmanship . . .
As officers got out of the car to question him, Mr. Gray turned and pointed a .38-caliber Rohm revolver at them, the police said; two officers fired, hitting the teenager. He was pronounced dead a short time later at Kings County Hospital Center.
Mr. Gray did not fire the handgun, which was recovered at the scene. Paul J. Browne, the chief spokesman for the Police Department, said the six-shot revolver was loaded with four live rounds.
“After the anti-crime sergeant and police officer told the suspect to show his hands, which was heard by witnesses, Gray produced a revolver and pointed it at the officers, who fired a total of 11 rounds, striking Gray several times,” Mr. Browne said.
UPDATE: the Times reports that “Seven bullets hit Mr. Gray, including three that entered his body from the rear, according to the New York City Office of the Chief Medical Examiner.”
So, to be fair, seven out of eleven with no collateral damage ain’t bad. Of course with the NY SAFE Act, non-LEO civilians are only allowed seven shots total. FWIW.
I read Gray was hit 7 times total, 2-3 of which struck him from behind.
If the kid indeed drew a gun, I have zero problem with the police dropping him. Stories vary of course, but I am of the belief no amount of bullets are too many when your life is threatened.
What actually happened remains to be seen.
Did the government employees have their weapons drawn? If so the citizen had every right to try and protect himself. Were the government employees in uniform? Did they look like cops or did they look like a couple gang bangers? The car was unmarked, something else that should not be allowed in a free society.
+1
Eyewitnesses report that the police identified themselves and asked to see the kids hands. And the kid fidgeted a little bit then drew the gun and aimed it. And it was loaded.
If this was a DGU of the Day post, we would not even be giving this a second thought. Bad guy pulls loaded gun on you and you shoot them. End of story.
Even if the police were undercover, and in an unmarked car. They had the drop on the kid. Every self defense instructor would tell you this is NOT a scenario to draw your weapon. You face multiple attackers who both have you in their sights. The time required to draw your weapon and aim is insufficient.
No controversy here for me.
Also, I have zero problems with undercover police or unmarked cars. Law abiding citizens obey the law regardless of if they are in the presence of law enforcement. I AM against entrapment, the militarization of the police, no knock warrants, etc. But the fact is undercover police do an incredibly dangerous and difficult job, and that deserves our respect, not our disdain. As for unmarked cars, who cares? Why, so you can slow down so you can’t get a speeding ticket?
From what I’ve read the only eyewitnesses who are saying he had a gun are the police themselves.
Two cops only fired 11 shots? Did both of their pistols jam?
Anti-crime sergeant? Is that the opposite of an organized-crime sergeant? I thought all cops were supposed to be anti crime.
I thought that was odd, too. I wonder if the PR flak threw that in there to imply that Kimani was a criminal.
Shows they can ban all rifle wont stop mass killers.
You mean cops?
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/14/nyregion/teenager-killed-by-new-york-police-was-shot-7-times.html
“The autopsy report on Mr. Gray did not specify which of the seven bullets caused the death of the teenager; that determination awaits further investigation.
One bullet entered his left shoulder in the rear; two other bullets struck the back of his thighs, one in the left thigh and one in the right. Two bullets struck from the front, hitting his right thigh; one bullet entered his left side, striking his lower rib cage; and the last bullet hit his left lower forearm.”
1 COM hit out of 7, although obviously the 4 thigh wounds could have been serious, depending on femoral artery involvement.
I don’t know much about this story, and I have no love for the NYPD. That being said this appears to be a legitimate DGU, and really between 2 shooters 11 rounds with only their target hit and no innocents hit id call this not too bad.
So it took 11 rounds for NY police officers to subdue one person, yet NY limits citizens to 7?
To be fair, that’s 11 shots from two officers, so 5 from one and 6 from the other, assuming that they took roughly equal numbers of shots.
Officially, since the SAFE law has not yet been amended to exempt police, they are still subject to the 7-round limit. If either of them fired more than seven rounds, they were in violation. So, that’s their story and I’m sure they’re sticking to it.
So let’s see. The officers were plainclothes, in an unmarked car. In other words, they were doing their best to look like average citizens. They then get out of the car, and, without having any police identification, tell this teenager to “show his hands.”
How exactly was the teenager supposed to know they were police? In my opinion, if an officer is plainclothes, in an unmarked car, he should not have the power to give orders as if he were in uniform. Put me in that teenager’s place, with two apparent citizens getting out of a car and telling me to show them my hands, and I wouldn’t have complied either.
To bad the kid didn’t understand the principle of GOTX (Get Off the X)… Cops had their guns drawn, the only way to avoid getting hit would be to move diagonal to them, that is, if you plan on resisting.
Ordinarily, you’d be correct. But when the NYPD or LAPD are involved, sometimes the safest place to be is in their sights. Stand still and wait for them to empty their guns into buildings, trees, and bystanders, then go about your business.
“without having any police identification” Could you please provide a link to back up this assertion?
According to news reports I’ve read, the dead guy broke away from the group after noticing the police & starting fiddling with his waistband (Mexican carry issues?), so it appears that the dead guy made a positive ID of the cops without any problems. The cops involved are 30 & 26 years old, not exactly easy to confuse with a rival pair of teenage gang-bangers.
Dead guy wasn’t shot because of non-compliance, it was showing his hands with a .38 pistol in one of them that was his mistake. If you’re saying that you too intend to draw from concealment if you’re told to “show your hands” by two cops, I hope you keep your life insurance paid up.
FWIW, the black cop fired 4 times & the Hispanic cop fired 7 times, so yeah, racism!
NYC police marksmanship is about the same as “spray and pray”, id be surprised if either of the police aimed down sight. You think they’d get off less shots with those apparent 12pd triggers they have.
To be fair, a 8/10th of the time spent as a teenager is also time spent ineligible to possess a handgun (unless it’s someone else, supervision, blah blah blah). However, I think it muddies the legitimacy of this even more, since it’s a shitty reason to get shot… unless you’re defending yourself against perceived lethal aggressors…unless they ID themselves as LEOs… unless the aggressors are masquarading as LEOs (which, to be fair, fits NYPD in far too many instances) …unless unless unless.
As it reads, a nasty mess. When in doubt, if it’s the East Coast, blame Bloomberg. West Coast, blame Feinstein.
The revolver pictured above is a Röhm, made in Germany. Don’t know the exact model number. It looks like it might be a .38 S&W.
They’re a piece of crap as a revolver. Don’t buy one. If you’re really desperate for something that looks like a gun, but which you’ll use as a paperweight… OK, take one in as on a trade for a wheelbarrow full of dog poop or something else tangible in return…
You shouldn’t talk about Robert’s favorite wheel gun like that…
I have a Rohm over-under .38 derringer. Not accurate in the least bit. But fun to shoot except you have to reload every 2 rounds!
They shot the poor kid for his Skittles.
…and his iced tea.
Used to work wityh cops all the time. Knew a lot of them. Every one I knew carried a “throw away”, a gun, usually cheap, to “throw down” if they shoot an unarmed “perp”
Ahhh, but TWO New York residents could shoot fourteen rounds between ’em.
If my math isn’t off they missed over 27% of their shots, and less than 20% of rounds fired hit him when he was facing them. Maybe NYPD should be restricted to one round kept in a shirt pocket.
Other eyewitnesses say he never pulled a gun. His sister and his cousin have given interviews saying they never knew him to own a gun.
I’d say send that revolver to the crime lab, and have them check the cartridges for prints.
“Maybe something to do with the fact that they weren’t wearing uniforms?”
That is a lot of conjecture in support of a 16 year old carrying a handgun in NYC.
Roll out the 2008 school picture of an 11 year old Kimani wearing an angelic smile and a Little League outfit.
Or…was the gun was planted? Is that a retired service revolver? In the gun-free utopia of Flatbush, who do we believe? A supposed wannabe thug’s buddies? Bloomberg’s army? No one involved is above suspicion.
One thing is certain. The toughest gun laws in the land, including Cuomo’s crown jewel SAFE Act, aren’t stopping gun fatalities in Bloomberg’s toxic bubble. Maybe the kid was wound up on a large, sugary drink.
Just over 10 years ago i was driving through Sunset Park in Brooklyn and for anyone who knows the area was not that great back then now gentrifying a little but anyway. I was to be fair driving a little aggressive and was weaving in and out of lanes cutting cars off in the process but not putting anyone in danger i was only going about 10 over everyone else. I notice that an old beatup minivan starts following me trying to keep up when i finally get a red hes about 5 cars back i watch him in the mirror and 2 guys get of the car. I wait to see if i get a green and drive away but that does not happen so i grab my knife, unbuckle the belt, open my door all while watching them making their way towards me. At this point i see him put his hand behind his back like he is going for something at the same time with the other hand reaches into his t shirt from the top and pulls a badge about one car length away. Now i pull the door closed, throw the knife under my seat and buckle up quick. He comes up knocks on the window gun in hand and calls me an asshole. Takes my DL checks me out, reads me the riot act about the way i was driving, calls me an asshole again and lets me go on my way without a ticket. I guess the point is that in NYC you have no idea whos who until the last seconds. Im not saying this isnt a good shoot by the cops but i can see where this could be a big unfortunate misunderstanding.