Open carry requires practitioners to maintain a heightened sense of situational awareness, especially when carrying in a non-retention rig. Why? Because drunks do stupid things and because criminals might try to snatch your handgun. That’s what happened recently at a Homewood, Alabama Walmart where a man traveling with his family had his (openly) carry gun snatched after an altercation.
The man who grabbed the gun fired off a shot at the gun owner. Fortunately the shot missed the former open carrier and his wife and two kids. They all ran. Walmart security approached and the bad guy ran out of the store.
Cops caught him not far away. There’s no word on whether Mr. Open Carry got his gun back, but it’s highly doubtful.
From AL.com:
A 20-year-old suspect has been charged after authorities said he shot at another man inside a Homewood Walmart.
Navaeh-Ojore Timothy-Carl Payton, of Vestavia Hills, is charged with attempted murder, attempting to elude and disorderly conduct, said Sgt. John Carr..
The incident happened about 12:30 p.m. Monday at the Lakeshore Parkway store. No one was injured.
The adult male victim, who is from Georgia, was at the store with his family, including two children. He was openly carrying a weapon that was in a holster, which is legal in the state of Alabama.
Carr said another man approached the victim and had words with him. As the victim started to walk away, police said, Payton pulled his handgun and fired one shot.
Many years ago, I used to open carry where legal as part of public education. Then, at an NRA Convention, I went to downtown Louisville for an open-air concert. Working my way through a pretty good crowd of folks ranging from sober to seriously intoxicated made me think better of it and conceal the piece.
While I won’t say I haven’t open carried at all since then when traveling outside of open-carry-prohibited Illinois, it’s pretty darn rare. I prefer to eliminate even the slightest temptation to someone else to try to snatch my carry piece.
This is happened twice to open carriers in the city in which I live, there were no shots fired though, one of the reasons I’m not a fan of open carry.
The problem isn’t that he open carried. It’s that he entered a “Walmart.” Lol.
People here (not talking about Ross), are already expressing what others “need” to do other than open carry, rather than entering the Walmart. If you have to summon your inner tyrant to tell others what they should be doing, at least expand your options beyond simply “open carry.” After all, uniformed cops and military do not conceal carry, yet there was not a single inkling of pushing concealed carry on them.
Anonymous, comparing this victim to the military/LE is the whole apples and oranges thing. First, the military has and does have weapons stolen. All the time. I never lost a weapon, but others did. Besides, it’s hard to conceal a belt fed machinegun. Second, LE officers also have weapons stolen. And are often shot with them. Despite being carried in retention holsters. Conceal them? What would be the point if you’re wearing a uniform. My bat belt had a 1911, three magazines, handcuffs, pepper spray, a baton, a radio, a mag light, and a Surefire on it. I couldn’t hide all that. I did conceal when I worked plain clothes. Sometimes. Even then I still had a full size 1911, at least one magazine and a handcuff case. And it gets hot here. However, when open carrying while working I maintained extreme situational awareness. Off duty, concealed. Always. And always will. Even if open carry is legal. And it should be.
Agree with you 💯 %
Sounds like we are in agreement. End of story. Literally everything else you said doesn’t matter to me, and I don’t care about it – at all.
100 years ago city cops commonly carried a revolver in a jacket or coat pocket. A very skilled and daring pickpocket could relieve a cop of his pistol.
Not to be snobbish, but that holster looks like it was the $9.95 special at Walmart. He wanted to fit in with the crowd. Didn’t want to carry an “expensive” DeSantis or some other quality holster and show up the other Walmart shoppers.
If you are referring to the photo at the top of this article, it appears to be a random open carry photo, not directly related to this Walmart story.
JG is correct. I took that photo at a rally outside the Texas capitol.
So, you think this is an actual pic of the guy who was attacked? I love the Internet.
Police on the job practice precautions to protect their openly carried weapon. They avoid entering hostile crowds. They assert control over the scene when conducting official business like an investigative stop. They train extensively to be alert for anyone focused on their weapon.
A person shopping with family at a big-box store does not have the mental space to be alert the way a cop on the job would be.
photo.
https://www.wsfa.com/2022/01/18/homewood-pd-man-fires-weapon-during-altercation-walmart/
Figures.
Muh Reparations!!
No wonder the guy’s so angry. He kinda looks like Topsy from Uncle Tom’s Cabin illustrations.
I hate to see so many guys making so much trouble for themselves because no one taught them how to grow into good men.
“no one taught them”
how many are capable of being taught?
Tht process must start when the child is about six months old, or even younger. It can be “cute” when a tiny child stamps his feet and says NO to Dad. But a GOOD DAD will deal with that, training the child to respond appropriatey, and to obey. Yes, I said OBEY. This punk dirtbag has never been TAUYGHT to obey. Nor to respect other people and/or their stuff. They often have about as much self-control as a six month old Lab puppy. and our prisons are full of them.
Tionico nailed it.
Well said.
That used to be a pretty nice area, now… not so much.
If O’Bama had a son he’d probably look like that.
he’s a prepper! if he had escaped into the swamp and they couldn’t see his blinky kicks, he could survive on those malted milk balls for weeks.
I wonder why I guessed the ethnicity correctly upon reading the name of the felon in this article?
If I had been stuck with a name like that I would probably go through life with a chip on my shoulder and do dumb things like grab somebody else’s gun from their holster and miss them at close range. Guess who most likely started the argument. That shouldn’t be hard.
Boy, I didn’t see that coming…
… never relax.
Who you callin’ “boy”?
Oh.
“While I won’t say I haven’t open carried at all since then when traveling outside of open-carry-prohibited Illinois, it’s pretty darn rare. I prefer to eliminate even the slightest temptation to someone else to try to snatch my carry piece.”
so you feel safer if people perceive you as unarmed.
I’ve open carried but VERY rarely. First time was Jan 1 the day it’s was first allowed in my state. I’ve only done it one or two times since.
sheeple tend to FEEL safer when they don’t see a gun, and it isn’t my intention to walk around making sheeple nervous.
A lawyer once told me not to open carry unless you especially enjoy talking to cops.
YMMV depending on your state, and your location within that state.
Cops are very supportive of non-official keeping and bearing arms…cops’ families and people they drink with, that is. Few appreciate objects of their attention being armed.
I really think people open carry for one of three reasons, they think they are Jason Borne or they are compensating for having a small member or they are trying to provoke a response. Letting the bad guy know who to shoot first is just not a great tactical move guys. Keep it to yourself.
GW,
Pretty severe disrespect for people who choose to open carry.
Nope. My experience with open carry folks is just what I stated. They were becoming just part of the problem. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. But I appreciate your position.
You provided three options, none of which are applicable to me or anyone else I know who has every OC’d.
Just last week, I took three of my CA friends to a beginner gun course outside the state in “Free America”. They had never had an opportunity in their lives to bear arms, and they didn’t possess CCWs of course, so we opted for Open Carry as we dined at a nearby restaurant. The very simply act of exercising their right was eye-opening for them, and absolutely nobody gave us a second look or cared one whit as we went through the rest of the evening. It was a taste of liberty that made its impression, and they expressed that they now want to continue their training to become better POTG.
I personally prefer concealed, but there are some times when OC is acceptable. TEHO, but don’t tell someone they chose to OC because you have a bigger Johnson than they do. No matter how experienced you truly are with your own gun & training, they’ll just think you’re a tool.
Oh are you doing something I don’t agree with? You must have a small penis!
Grow up loser. Normal people don’t think about other people’s dicks all day.
You got me with that one, Vhyrus. Read my reply to LifeSavor. Calling it like I see it.
Jason Bourne never open carried. Not in the movies or (that I can remember) in the books….
That was definitely one of the stupidest things I’ve ever read on this site. Well done. I couldn’t imaging being that clueless. Maybe you can give a single example of where a “bad guy” targeted someone who was open carrying before anyone else?
Try a Google search and several show up.
I would post a link but it won’t let me
“I really think people open carry for one of three reasons, they think they are Jason Borne or they are compensating for having a small member or they are trying to provoke a response.”
Just because you may have a small dick and are all pissed-off about it, doesn’t mean everyone else is.
Use your personal experience of having a small ‘appendage’ as an excellent opportunity for you to work on your (apparently lacking) coping skills… 🙂
Lol what a clown. Please remember that Geoff here has never been with a woman in the biblical sense.
And your response concerning females open carrying?
“..compensating for having a small member..”
Liberal/Leftist/weak thinker/collective talking point that has no basis in fact. I have seen this soo many times and it keeps getting stupider every time I see it..
Yes! I said Stupid.
That must be why cops and military do it.
To GW,
One reason to open carry ( in a retention holster) is to normalize Guns.
When the people see guns in holsters at the hardware store, grocery store, in the street and nothing bad happens, that is good for us people of the gun
Well said.
Cops are very supportive of non-official keeping and bearing arms…cops’ families and people they drink with, that is. Few appreciate objects of their attention being armed.
Maybe the cops you know are supportive of CCW but my experience in a mostly pro 2A state (AZ) has been different. While most (not all) accept that we have the right, they aren’t happy about it and have told me they will arrest a/o detain a CCW carrier given the slightest excuse. We’ve also had many traffic ticket incidents wherein the LEO either confiscated the firearm or ammunition or field stripped and dumped the parts in the carrier’s vehicle. I hate to think what happens in anti 2A locations!
GW (mind if I call you “G”??),
Consider opening your mind. It might be painful, at first, but Advil will help that. Let us consider other options:
1. If you really understand “carry”, a OWB rig is simply faster to access and present than ANY concealed carry rig.
2. While I PERSONALLY don’t particularly wish to make myself a target, some are more forward than I. My philosophy is more, “Let them think I’m unarmed; my concealed pistol will be a hell of a surprise.” YMMV. I can see a valid position of “If they’re going to start shooting, I’ll be in the s***, anyway, so let’s just get it done.” Not my style, but I admire the attitude.
3. In areas that are more accepting of open carry, cops sometimes PREFER to see open carry – they KNOW the guy has a gun, and tactically, that becomes part of the equation. Especially with the new crop of “micro” carry pistols, even an alert cop can’t spot ALL the concealed carriers. Cops prefer to know who is carrying, and who isn’t. They may tend to get a little tetchy about folks being all clandestine. I prefer not to piss cops off, if I can avoid it.
4. Michael Z. Williamson wrote a series of SF books (the “Freehold” series) that postulated a society where there were two reactions to a person wearing a gun prominently in public: (i) if the person was sketchy, and looked to be up to no good, he was likely to have the nearest 20 or so people whoop out their OWN guns, and if he actually acted improperly, light his @$$ up, or (ii) if said person was NOT sketchy, people would come up and go, “Wow, nice gun! How do you like it? Can I try it??”.
I would love to live in a society where #4 was the rule and standard, but we don’t. Don’t want to piss off the po-po, if I can easily avoid it. But I insist on being armed. My solution is to carry concealed, but I can easily understand why others might differ.
Consider other points of view. You are welcome to disagree with them, but it is not wise strategy OR tactics to ignore them. I will personally continue to carry concealed, until Michael Z. Williamsons’ society becomes our own. Once that happens, I’ll open carry, ’cause it’s tactically more sound.
” people would come up and go, “Wow, nice gun! How do you like it? Can I try it? ”
My answer to that would be quick and firm “NO”. Whether open or concealed, my gun never comes out of it’s holster unless I have to take care of some business.
Hope it’s stainless. Showering, swimming while wearing a gun is hard on blue steel ones.
Joe Bob from Georgia just got taught a lesson, fortunately no one was injured but, his lack secure carry placed many in danger.
Open carry has always been pure stupidity. If a criminal is going to rob you far from being frightened off, instead of just demanding your money he will shoot you down like a dog first and then rob you. You will not know its coming because his gun will be concealed. Again since the Far Right do not have brain one this is all way over their heads, as there is not much room for gray matter in the Neanderthal skull.
Open carry also gives all gun owners a very bad name. People, especially non gun owners, when they see other people openly carrying view the gun carrier as a Far Right Nut case looking for a fight and wanting to shoot someone. They feel threatened and their fear soon turns into hatred of all people who own guns. Of course this is way over the head of the largely uneducated and totally ignorant and arrogant Far Right who think that it is only they that have any rights or should have any rights.
Uneducated and ignorant. Perfect description of dacian the nazi.
HEY! Nazi’s might have been bad, but they generally weren’t stupid.
dacian the nazi is the exception. A very stupid nazi.
There is no might have been when it comes to nazi
to Jethro WM
The fact that jellyfish have survived without brains for 650 million years gives some home to people like you Jethro.
I’m sure you haven’t been around that long, but somehow you’ve managed to survive without a brain as well.
Muh Reparations! Gimme dat gat, Whitey!
darcydodo…When it comes to giving advice about firearms you are along the lines of a pedophile giving advice to parents about their children.
Project much kid?
There are a few non-douchebag reasons to open carry. In some places open carry is the only lawful option, particularly when traveling out of state. For example only a few counties in Oregon issue CCW to out-of-staters and only in person by appointment. Thus carrying legally there pretty much means open carry only.
Dacian, you just earned an ‘F’ in anthropology.
Neanderthals had greater cranial capacity and larger brains than modern humans.
Dackie Boy, someone else OC’ing does NOT give ME a bad name. I am who I am regardless of who/what anyone else is/does. Including you.
then there is this:
always been pure stupidity.ALWAYS? Even out in the bush/woods/outback? Need that thing NOW if you need it at all. Stop, drip yur pack, fixh the thing out of your IWB retention holster in time to stop the bear/lion/wolf/greedy homeless derelict high on drugs?
Maybe you SHOULD do that. Might cure your false bravado.
And lil d KNOWS stupidity
Well. Let cops and military know!
You should go to Ukraine and lecture the Russians while you are at it. Convince them to carry concealed. 😆
That is open carry in the city. People open carry in the country for many reasons, snakes, lions, tigers, bears, highwaymen, etc. Open carry is easier and more comfortable, can be done driving a vehicle, on and on.
rt66paul,
Thank you for that comment. Carrying a gun – WHAT you carry, HOW you carry it, etc. etc., et ad nauseum cetera, is an incredibly personal and situational decision. I wish more on this forum would absorb that POV. What works for me, works for me (or doesn’t, and then it’s my problem).
I don’t tell others when, how, what to carry, and I will thank them to extend me that same courtesy. I could give a s*** what YOUR opinion is about what, where, when to carry; I’ll make that decision for myself, thank you very much.
“I could give a s*** what YOUR opinion is about what, where, when to carry; I’ll make that decision for myself, thank you very much.”
This is where you go so very wrong. I am the sole arbiter over what is the right way to carry, or the wrong way. If you do it wrong, well, git chur mind right. And nobody needs a caliber larger than .22, or .9mm.
The “right way” to carry a handgun is “pocket carry”, whether the handgun disappears into the pocket, or sticks out so it is easy to grab. If you disagree with me, you are evil, wicked, mean, bad, and nasty.
And dumb.
How many concealed carriers have had their firearms taken in the past year?
I’ll bet close to ZERO.
And tactically, it’s the dumbest way to keep a firearm on one body.
Hi. I’m Dacian, and I have a list of stuff I want to vote on, to force you to do for me. If I can get enough votes, I can force you to do stuff on my list! Yay! #Democracy!
So, I don’t like the way you open carry. I just don’t agree on that kind of behavior, and it is my business. Everything is my business, and nothing should be left off the table for voting. Not the 2A, not the 1A, zero A’s. I got votes, and I need you guys to abide by them, the second I get 51% or you will be punished.
– with love. Dacian
Another Fake Dacian post. They are easy to spot because they are childish.
No, actually, dacian the stupid, the level of irrationality doesn’t vary much. Your problem is that you have become SO completely deranged that you are impossible to parody. The most absurd parody I can imagine??? You’ll post that nonsense if I wait a moment.
Don’t want trolls to steal your handle and post irrational nonsense??? Stop posting irrational nonsense.
Nah, sorry, I didn’t mean to present you with an impossible challenge – if you were capable of rationality, you would have displayed it by now. How’d you like your beloved Walking Rutabaga making a complete @$$ of himself at the SOTU????? I laughed my @$$ off, watching Senile Joe be a complete, babbling, senile moron. Until I realized that I had to tolerate his idiocy for 2.5 more years. I hope when he goes, he takes you with him.
I don’t really care what other people think.
And the risk of a gun snatch incident is not zero. It should be considered. But it is only one of many factors that should be considered in the risk/benefit analysis that each person uses in making that decision.
No two people are alike, or have the same equipment, or the same skills, or live/play/work in the same areas, or have the same values, or the same goals. So, no two people will have the same risk/benefit profile, or the same risk/benefit analysis. And, frankly, a lot of that analysis will be based more on subjective perception than documented facts.
I’m only going to second-guess someone else’s decision if it leads to a clearly bad outcome like the above, or if I wind up on a jury where that becomes relevant. Which won’t happen because I’m a scientist by profession, and lawyers hate to put us on juries.
The only person who can answer the question “should I open carry” is you. And when I ask myself that question, the advice of some internet gadfly does not factor in.
dacian the stupid is casting his “pearls” before us swine. I am come all over grateful for the brilliant advice of dacian the stupid . . . no, actually, dacian the stupid, please hie thyself off to the theological place of eternal punishment. Literally NO ONE on this board gives a shart what you think about ANYTHING. Feel free to keep you opinion to yourself. We will not be the worse off for lack of your input, and we’ll avoid the annoyance of dealing with your pungent scent. Or, in the vernacular, “Go p*** up a rope!”.
Toddle off, now, idiot.
If you are going to open carry it appears you need to practice social distancing. Or just cut the crap and conceal carry.
“practice social distancing”
(laughing)
The animosity from people against OC is almost as bad as the “which caliber is best” or “Glock vs. 1911” conversations.
Geez, people. Just carry the way you prefer and stop getting all in a tizzy because someone else didn’t make the same decision you did. For decades, we’ve never even had the option of CC here in L.A. County because permits aren’t issued, so OC was the only way we could bear arms. At least, until Jerry Brown made that illegal, so we’re kinda screwed here.
Will **SOMEBODY** at TTAG please explain the commenting rules/policy to us so we can avoid the constant “Your comment is awaiting moderation” bullcrap?
Pretty strong language coming from you, Haz.
🤣
TTAG, this is escalating…better start paying attention.
Thing is, what caliber you carry doesn’t affect me. Your open carrying might, because it can lead to gun prohibitions in certain establishments that wouldn’t otherwise have them, due to somebody freaking out over seeing OC and complaining. I’m pretty sure that’s what happened at Starbucks. Other customers having guns wouldn’t have been on peoples radar with concealed carry. So, if it can impact me, I’m going to complain.
If memory serves aright, CharBux institutted their no guns” policy in response to a comlaint.. about armed police officers entering, their weapons very obvious on their hips. As I recall, the ossifers simply ceasedpatronising the Sign of the Green Mer-Thing and went elswhere. The few times I’ve been forced (based on present company insisting) to enter a CharBux I was, as always, carrying my service weapon. I ignored the signs and walked in. No one batted en eye. Not even me. The hired help are generally too ignorant to determine if I am carrying mydefensive tool. And I never volunteer. So also with most of their customer.
I know in my state and the ones surrounding it I cna carry open or concealed, as I do have my Mother May I Card. One of them allows carry inside a bar/tavern/21+ section IF I am not actually drinking. I usually dont care about payingthose prices for booze, so take advantage of the option and carry well concealed. I’d never carry open in such a place. Get some clown half lit who decides it is HIS turn to put on his Mighty Mouse cape and save the world who SEES my weapon is NOT how I want to pass an evening.
“Or just cut the crap and conceal carry.”
Or, Deborah, they could just use a retention holster… 🙂
Or everyone could mind their own business.
😆
I open carry in the rural area where I live. So do many others. There is never a problem. The only other places I do so are at the range and when hunting. Walmart or Costco? Nope.
Agreed. There is a time and place for open carry, which you and many of us clearly appreciate. If choosing to go open rather than concealed in more populated areas, perhaps it’s best to use a holster with multiple retention devices. LEOs use these types of holsters to avoid situations like the one that occurred here. If those are too cumbersome or bulky, there’s always the concealed option.
As I say below, I carry out here around the farmstead, or on quick trips to local businesses. No one even notices. But do conceal when going beyond the local small farming community. No need to frighten the sheep, nor be hassled by worried cops.
Poor dumb kid just wanted his own heater!
It’s sad really, stupid 20 year old did something impulsive and is going to pay a heavy price for it.
“It’s sad”
from your moral perspective, yes, it is. but they don’t share that moral perspective. to them, “I’se just doin’ what I needs to DO!” sympathy just doesn’t seem appropriate.
I’m thinking more along the lines of ” A mind is a terrible thing to waste” Most people have inherent potential…somewhere. It’s unfortunate that society suffers such a significant loss because of societal failures. I’m not pointing fingers or placing blame, it is just a fact.
Honestly there so much blame to go around, be it the glorification of firearms, peer pressure and the list goes on. There’s so much blame to go around there’s nowhere to even start.
It’s more than “he got a gat. I want it, I needs a kewl piece”
“It’s more than “he got a gat. I want it, I needs a kewl piece””
much of the time, that’s all it is.
There is a right not to see guns? New one on me. Looks like we’re in an era of discovery of new rights never before heard of.
I wouldn’t worry too much about the kid. Odds are good it will be pled down to a lesser charge and he’ll just do community service.
Gun crimes are only an issue for the politicians. DA’s toss them out before the ink is dry on the police reports.
I will say if you open carry, use a level 2 retention holster. If you can master a one handed draw and rack you could also carry with an empty chamber which would really mess up a potential gun grab.
Vhyrus,
Agree on both counts. I use an L2 retention holster when i (rarely) open carry. Have considered using an empty chamber, also. Regularly practice draw, rack, acquire, shoot (laser bullet at home).
I agree as well. To LifeSavor’s point, the Israeli draw is another option that can be used for a “belt and suspenders” solution.
LMAO. SERIOUSLY!
And at Walmart, of course. Bet that took away the swagger a bit…
The exercise of rights also requires an enormous amount of responsibility. Gomer’s fortunate that he wasn’t shot, nor his wife and/or kids, nor someone else down range. One can only imagined the outcome of the two wrestled for the gun for a while and he retained it.
Now what? Shoot the unarmed attacker?
I hope he, and his kids learned the obvious. Maybe others will from reading about it.
Go ahead and open-carry all you want but I’m going to stay well clear of you. This article is but one of the reasons why. There are many things one can legally engage in but that doesn’t make it intelligent.
(And thank you so much for moderating my response, it makes everyone around me feel that much more safe…)
God every other comment I read from you is nauseating.
Simple solution for you to apply: when you see that screen name, simply hit the down arrow and move on. WHY give yer pweshus sewf a belly ache?
Because you touch yourself at night.
Many years ago when open carry was the only choice in Arizona (no CCW or constitutional carry), I occasionally carried openly without any drama or hysteria. I haven’t done so in many years, largely because of the extremely negative reactions from many (most?) people. In addition to not wanting to cause fearful, sometimes hysterical reactions from the sheeple, I’ve decided that I don’t need to give the potential assault-er (doer, perp, etc.) any advance notice of what is about to happen to him. My choice; y’all are free to do what feels right.
I open carry around the homestead, because of comfort of a separate gun belt, rather than a holster stuck in my waistband, or sometimes on quick trips into the local feed mill or tire shop, etc. If I am going into town, outside of the small local town, I do prefer concealed. Just because some of the sheep and some cops get their knickers in a bunch if they see a side arm on anyone not wearing a uniform. As well as to not advertise myself as being armed. Also, around the farm, I tend to want a heavy caliber revolver, while in town I prefer an autoloader such as my 1911 or Hi-Power.
Hopefully, since it passed the state house, and is now in the state senate, permit less carry will pass here in AL.
That’s “bewwy ache.”
In some places open carry is the only lawful option, particularly when traveling out of state. For example only a few counties in Oregon issue CCW to out-of-staters and only in person by appointment. Thus carrying legally there pretty much means open carry only. Just saying this because there are non-douchebag reasons to open carry.
that’s because ony folks living in a contiguous state can apply for a non-resident Mother May I Card. A few counties try and make it as big a pain t=in the backside as they can. but when my county of first ussue got pissy I just went onto a local gun forum and asked which other counties are more accomodatiing. Three folks gave the same response in an huor, so I walked into that Sheriff’s Office and in fifteen minutes had it all done. Glad I did not have to give any reward to the pissy county. “Funny thing is when I first went for my non-resident Mothe May I Card for Oregon I had learned the county I went to later was simpl not issing them at the time. I guess they had a knuckehead Chief LEO who nad an opinion”. Funny, she musta wore out her constitutents, cause she was not reelected next time around.
Residents of non-contiguous states cannot get that Mother May I Card. My sorry home state does not issue such cards to any non-residents, but there are a surprising number of other states who recognise my Card when I travel. The states that won;t let anyone carry? I siml do not need to go there.
“a wise man sees trouble and hides himself from it”.
From my PROFESSIONAL point of view, as a long service veteran in the RAF and UK Infantry Reserve and a Smallarms Instructor for a good few years, the open carrying of a side arm for civilians is an invitation for the bad guys to shoot first and ask questions later. It does NOT matter how good you think you are you will NOT outdraw the guy with a gun at your bloody. head.
You are not RAMBO, and in any case in a real scenario Rambo would have lasted all of ten elfin seconds. Open carrying turns an intent to rob into a intent to kill for the bad guys OWN self protection as a first option. If the bad guy points a bloody gun at you GIVE him or her the bloody wallet and give it to then VERY CAREFULLY.
Right, because a mugger is going to look at two people, one open carrying and the other not then say to himself “Hmm I think the person open carrying a gun is going to be a much better target than the person without one”. GTFO
But he’s a PROFESSIONAL. Says so himself. Don’t believe me, just ask him.
IF the mugger is sufficiently intelligent to have his cognitive faculties in good orde,r of COURSE he will go for the obvisou armed guy, assuming no one else is. Take out the armed one, the rest are yors aa well.
But I REALLY like to read about such muggers who whilst attempting to take out the one oper=nly armed, GET taken out by the one whocarries HIS tool well concealed but ready when needed.
“From my PROFESSIONAL point of view,…”
It’s OK, Albert. Show us on the doll where the bad man touched you.
You deserve to be a ‘subject’… 🙂
I don’t think possible that any SUBJECT living in UK and under the age of 120 could possibly have any valid experience/opinion on this discussion.
“If the bad guy points a bloody gun at you GIVE him or her the bloody wallet and give it to then VERY CAREFULLY.”
That wins the award for most candy ass statement of 2022. Lol, “professional”
“From my PROFESSIONAL (SUBJECT, NOT CITIZEN) point of view,………
FIFY.
You inadvertently forgot to add those three KEY words in your post. 🤔
GICHYO 👍
Albert the subject,
Are you French???? “Bonjour, ya cheese-eatin’ surrender monkeys!”
Sure, I’ll give the guy my wallet. And if he wants to beat me, kill me, rape my wife or one of my daughters, well I’ll just whimper softly while he does it.
Albert, even for a subject, you are a disgusting POS. Be better, if you are capable.
“…I’ll just whimper softly while he does it.”
Well, I never….the least you could do is present your attacker with a strongly worded note of opposition.
Can both open and concealed carry here in Louisiana. Only time I open carry, like some others, is when I’m out in woods / rural setting. And then I’m carrying a duty size with 17 round mag.
My favorite CC is my Ruger SR9c-best of both worlds-10 round mag with a 17 round refill. If I know that I have to deep conceal then I will carry the LCP in a pocket holster.
I sometimes carry openly in order to normalize firearm ownership and carry among the masses. Whether or not I use a level-2 retention holster (when carrying openly) depends on the location and purpose.
When I am camping in remote locations, I carry a .44 Magnum revolver in a chest or shoulder holster which is definitely NOT a retention holster in my opinion. Anyone who has spent any time camping in remote locations knows that the odds of someone trying to grab my revolver is on par with winning the PowerBall jackpot.
If I am in a “safe” location (very low violent crime rate), I carry my full-size semi-auto pistol–usually in a non-retention holster. If I am in any other location, I carry my pistol in a level-2 retention holster.
Why do you believe that open carry helps normalize firearms ownership and carry among the masses? Not trying to be a jerk; am genuinely curious.
In some respects it takes the mystic off of the firearm. People realize it won’t jump out and bite or randomly attack them, like they’ve led to believe. I’ve watched when other people were OC to observe the reactions of people to seeing the firearm. Many pay little attention and most never see it. Due to living inside their 3 meter box. Of course some people are completely mortified by the mere mention of a firearm. Much less the sight of one. I rarely OC for both personal and tactical reasons. I do understand why some people choose to. YMMV
fppf,
A prominent mindset among the unwashed masses is that only police or violent criminals own and carry firearms. When those unwashed masses see me dressed in nice clothes with a warm smile and a handgun on my hip, they realize that I am neither police nor a violent criminal and that “decent” people also own and carry firearms.
Another prominent mindset among the unwashed masses is that the few people (excluding police and criminals) who do own and carry firearms are beer swilling slobbering unstable rednecks with a scowl on their face and a nasty temper. When those unwashed masses see me dressed in nice clothes with a warm smile and friendly demeanor, they realize that “decent” people also own and carry firearms.
Dispelling those two horribly inaccurate stereotypes is critical to normalizing firearm ownership and carry. It also paves the way for the unwashed masses to rethink their aversion to firearms and begin thinking about the utility of firearms.
Speaking to that last sentence, I was at a beach with my spouse and children. The water was a bit too cold for me and I was thrilled to just sit back and read a book. Since I was not going to swim, I was wearing a nice short-sleeve shirt with a collar and tasteful shorts. Of course my handgun was on my hip in plain view. Another family set up next to us. After a half-hour or so, the husband noticed my handgun on my hip. That sparked a very productive conversation, culminating with the husband thanking me for making that beach a little bit safer. If I was inclined to place bets, I would wager $50 that our conversation inspired the husband–within 18 months of our conversation–to purchase a firearm and begin carrying it daily.
fppf,
After typing my response to your question, I finished reading the comments below. Commenter Florian Geyer does a fantastic job answering your question.
Law-abiding civilians openly carrying guns is a teachable moment to the General Public that guns are for everyone. Not just the police and the military. The goal of the anti-civil rights movement is to get people to believe that, they’re not allowed to have guns. But if they do have a gun, it must be kept locked up, and hidden away. The gun grabbers want to remove any possibility, that law-abiding civilians could resist a criminal tyrannical government.
Also when the police refuse to do their job or are ordered to stand down by government officials. You have the right to take up arms and protect yourself, your property, and your loved ones. Which is why you had law abiding property owners, openly carrying long guns patrolling their residential areas, in 2020 during the riots.
I couldn’t find the news article, but several years ago a Walmart customer was tackled to the ground by another customer who had glimpsed his lawfully carried concealed firearm. The good citizen (crazy vigilante) wrestled the gun from the CCW-ier, screaming HELP! MAN WITH A GUN! It didn’t end well for him; he was arrested and charged. I’d rather not endure this brand of crazy so I keep my gat hidden.
It’s one of the reasons I’m not a fan of Serpa Holsters. I saw a video on YT of a guy rip a gun out of one with surprising ease. Someone gained a gun pretty easily.
open carry snatching is not unknown.
Another ‘recent’ incident > Openly Carried Handgun Easily Gets In The Hands Of This Criminal > https://concealednation.org/2022/02/openly-carried-handgun-easily-gets-in-the-hands-of-this-criminal/
skip the so called ‘level I’ friction fit retention of that Kydex Holster for public open carry, leave that one for the range. Yeah, you think it looks all cool and ‘tactical … the gun snatchers sees it as a big sign that says “Here it is, grab and pull and that’s it” and even if they do not snatch it soon they are definately thinking about it. If you are going to open carry in public have at least a Level II holster minimum.
That’s one of the major reasons I will never open carry even if it were legal in my state.Always leave the element of surprise on your side.
GRAPHIC VIDEO: Violent Street Attack Shows Us How Some Bad People DGAF (Seattle Washington)
https://concealednation.org/2022/03/graphic-video-violent-street-attack-shows-us-how-some-bad-people-dgaf/
Open carry is for fat guys with small pee-pees.
“Open carry is for fat guys with small pee-pees.”
Just because you have a small dick doesn’t mean everyone has something as humiliatingly-small as your Johnson, son.
Learn to use your tongue, your woman will thank you for it.
(Well, as soon as she stops laughing at ‘tiny’, that is… 🙂 )
If he tips he really good maybe she wouldn’t laugh?
There is a local alcohol outlet that has armed employees, the owner OCs a G19 in the issue beltslide holster. One clerk carries a Sig P320 full size and he tends to have his gun covered more often than not, he carries it in a polymer Serpa. The last guy carries in a nylon shoulder holster. He too, carries a Sig P320 but if I were the owner I would not allow a shoulder holster as you are sweeping customers with the muzzle as the muzzle is never really in a safe position.
Weapons retention is paramount, I see careless trust and with the shoulder holster you are presenting the gun for someone to try and grab. JMHO
I open carry everywhere except at church and work primarily for political reasons. I can’t tell you how many times it’s initiated positive interactions and started a dialogue with total strangers. I’ve never had the police called on me. Cops here don’t care.
Look at the advances the gay lobby has made culturally and legally within the last ten years. Ten years ago, gay marriage wasn’t even recognized. Now one of our top political fights is keeping gay porn and trans propaganda out of our kids schools.
Gun owners, come out of the closet. Open carry is a form of exposure therapy. With as many new gun owners as there have been just in the last two years, the “sheep” in public are not nearly scared of guns as you think they are. They will get used to seeing armed people in public just as assuredly as we all got used to seeing blue-haired he-shes at target.
Some tips for open carriers:
1. Be polite and friendly but don’t dress like a cop.
2. Active retention holster is a must.
3. Backup gun and a knife you can deploy with your off-hand. If someone tries to grab my gun, they’re either getting shot or stabbed with my left hand while I’m retaining my primary handgun with my right.
“a knife you can deploy with your off-hand”
make sure you practice doing that, it can be awkward.
The TDI Ka-Bar is an ambidextrous knife. According to the promotional material it was designed for law enforcement. I have one of these knives. It’s a great self-defense weapon. And I use it to “cut meat” only. And have yet to use it to cut meat. And hopefully I never well.
Florian Geyer,
Excellent commentary.
Wow Florian, that was exquisite! Well said sir.
Wellll, bust mah britches. Don’t that knock yer hat in the creek?
Places to open carry. Parks where allowed, camp sites, hiking trails, woods, when fishing and boating. Places to conceal carry. EVERYWHERE ELSE.
Soooo basically don’t open carry where anyone can see you?
Take it from someone who open carries pretty much everywhere: you’re missing out on so many positive interaction with people and opportunities to influence those around you.
At the playground with my kids: open carry
Date night with the wife: open carry
Movie matinee with the family: open carry
Starbucks: open carry
Target: open carry
Sam’s club: open carry
Half-price books: open carry, F*ck your 30.07 sign.
Library: open carry.
Barber shop: open carry.
I’m a regular at these locations in my community and at first, I got weird looks from the staff for doing it, now nobody bats an eye and I’m on friendly terms with alot of the staff. Seeing a normal family man with a smile on his face and a gun on his belt is good for our cause. I have shifted the Overton window ever so slightly in the places I frequent and it’s time more of us started doing the same.
How can we say that we should expose children to guns to take away the “mystique” so they’re more used to seeing them as tools instead objects but then deny that reality when it comes to the general public; many of whom are pro-gun or at least open to it?
@Florian Geyer
“Seeing a normal family man with a smile on his face and a gun on his belt is good for our cause. I have shifted the Overton window ever so slightly in the places I frequent and it’s time more of us started doing the same.”
First, I am not against open carry. I do it myself sometimes. But do not ever think its actually “good for our cause” or you have actually “shifted the Overton window” – because it isn’t and you haven’t.
You may have gotten people used to seeing you that way, open carrying, and you may encounter people who say or act like “Hey, its no big deal” or seem to ‘accept’ it – but from experience with lots of anti-gun and gun-fear people overtime I can tell you that even though they may not be all for gun-control they still see it as intimidation and fear it and simply act like they accept it but in their minds is always a nagging thing of ‘is he going to shoot me?’.
So don’t ever think ‘permission by acceptance’ equals actual ’embracing acceptance’ because it doesn’t.
.40 cal Booger,
I understand your concern and your reasoned explanation. I think this all boils down to the mentality of observers.
Observers who are fervently anti-firearm:
They will never “come around” no matter what anyone does. I see no point in concerning ourselves with such observers.
Observers who are mildly anti-firearm:
Open carry may not spark them to accept firearm ownership and carry as “normal”, but it might! I also do not believe that open carry will galvanize their opposition and spur them to actively oppose firearm ownership and carry in a political capacity.
Observers who have no position or are “on the fence” on firearms:
I believe that seeing a “normal family man/woman with a smile on his/her face and a gun on his/her belt” will get them thinking about it and, most likely, begin to see it in a favorable light.
Observers who are sympathetic to firearm ownership:
Seeing a normal family woman with a smile on her face and a gun on her belt will show them that carrying firearms for family defense is a positive to society and hopefully spur them to do the same as well as actively support it in the political arena.
In summary: I believe that we have nothing to lose and everything to gain when a “normal” family man or women has a smile and gun on his/her belt.
@uncommon_sense
Its wasn’t a ‘concern’, it was actual experience from many years of dealing with anti-gun people. Believe me, if you open carry when others in the public at large see the gun their first though is not “My goodness, what a positive advantage to society.” even though there may be some who do think that.
You probably have not encountered many truly anti-gun people, I can tell by your comments. There is a difference between a person saying they are ‘anti-gun’ and a person being truly ‘anti-gun’
Those that are truly anti-gun are a neurotic hot mess and have some sort of mental health issue with obsession of some type. Its not only guns for them, its a little of everything they fear. They just do not fear the gun, they fear you as an individual and they fear anyone you are with even your kids and spouse – they truly would rather you and your family die than use a gun to defend yourself or your family.
.40 cal Booger,
Oh, I totally agree that many/most fervently anti-gun people are a neurotic hot-mess. And that is why I do not concern myself with their perception nor their reactions. (There is literally nothing that we can say or do to win them over.) And that is why, instead, I concern myself with advancing our position on the rest of the population who will respond in a much more rational and circumspect way, even if it takes them a long time to come-around.
Florian Geyer,
“Seeing a normal family man with a smile on his face and a gun on his belt is good for our cause. I have shifted the Overton window ever so slightly in the places I frequent and it’s time more of us started doing the same.”
Exactly!
I tip my hat to you fine sir.
Open Carry is great if you want the bad guys to shoot you first.
It’s probably a pretty safe bet that the bad guys are focused on where the money is and not on whose packing. I have open carried in the past – Delaware allows that with no permit. And I always used a holster with a latch on it – easy to use if you know (and practice) the trick, not so easy for someone to just grab it. Now I have a permit, so I go concealed. I’m not really interested in promoting firearms or moving the Overton window. I leave that to the evangelists. I’m interested in my safety, and that’s as far as I’ll go with it. But, everyone gets to do what they like, so I’m good with people who want to open carry. Better than no carry, no matter how you go about it.
Navaeh-Ojore Timothy-Carl Payton
Navaeh = Heaven misspelled and backward
Ojore = Warrior Origin: African
Not quite living up to either name.
I would think St. Peter might count this as a strike against getting through the pearly gates.
Would a warrior be such a coward that violence is the first course of action and then one shot and running like a scared child?
The problem is not with open carry. It’s with poor situational awareness and possibly poor holster situation. I mean the victim turned his back while openly carrying on a person he was just into it with. Never do that.
I understand some folks don’t have the competency or confidence to open carry, but don’t trash it for those who do.
WHEW THA COMMENTS . NOW BACK TO OPEN CARRY . AFTER GETTING LTC , I REALLY FELT , KNEW I WANTED CONCEAL CARRY MY PISTOL . I WANT THE BENEFIT OF SURPRISE IF WILL HELP , ON MY SIDE OF THE FENCE . HOWEVER , WHICH ONE WOULD BE RIGHT FOR ME AFTER SEVERAL VISITS GUN STORES AND TALKING WITH PEOPLE . TRYING , HOLDING AND USING FRONT RIGHT POCKET PANTS , HAD TO CHANGE DRESS FROM BLUE JEANS TO DOCKERS , TO PLACE PISTOL IN . ~ PISTOLS , ? SETTLED FOR S&W 638 A 38 SPECIAL +P , WITH SHROUDED HAMMER , DOUBLE ACTION , BACK UP A NAA 22WRM SINGLE ACTION BACKUP , HAVE KIMBER 380 1911 MICRO , CAN ALSO CARRY , LEATHER HOLSTERS , MAYBE NOT CORRECT HOLSTER BUT ONES THAT WORKED FOR ME , SO HAVE VARIOUS TYPE LEATHER HOLSTERS , HAD TO EXPERIMENT WITH HOLSTERS . QUICKSTRIP CARRY FOR EXTRA 38 AMMO . ALL BETTER THAN A FIST FIGHT OR KNIFE FIGHT , I NEEDED LIGHT AND BEST COMFORT FEEL IN CONCEAL CARRY . I KNOW EACH TO THEIR OWN .
BEST LUCK IN YOUR CARRY , STAY SAFE AND ALERT BEST YA’ALL CAN.