Latest Lawsuit by Las Vegas Victims Against Gun Makers Argues that AR-15 Rifles are Illegal

ar15 trigger AR-15 safe fire

Dan Z for TTAG

We warned about the inherent danger of waving the regulatory wand when Trump first started talking about banning bump stocks…a product that had already been declared legal by the Obama-era ATF.

Now, inevitably, we have to deal with this. And it probably won’t be the last time this argument is made.

A rifle equipped with a bump stock does not automatically fire more than one shot for each function of the trigger. It fires one round each time the trigger is activated, and the process is not automatic, since the shooter has to maintain forward pressure on the weapon and keep his finger in position.

Notwithstanding that reality, Donald Trump, in response to the Las Vegas massacre, decided he could ban bump stocks by administrative fiat—the approach favored by the National Rifle Association. He instructed the Justice Department, which includes the ATF, to come up with a rationale, which required defining “function of the trigger” as “pull of the trigger,” defining a trigger pull so as to exclude what happens during bump firing, and treating the shooter as part of the rifle mechanism.

The Nevada lawsuit, which was filed in the District Court of Clark County, omits that part of the story, since the fact that the ATF repeatedly said bump stocks were legal before reversing itself under Trump’s orders after the Las Vegas attack weakens the case that manufacturers knew before then that they were breaking the law by producing guns that could be equipped with bump stocks. Instead the plaintiffs argue that manufacturers were aware that their guns were compatible with bump stocks and should have recognized that meant they could be readily converted into machine guns, even though the ATF had concluded otherwise.

In light of the bureaucratic history that the lawsuit glides over, that argument is highly dubious. But going forward, if you accept the Trump administration’s view of bump stocks, it is at least superficially plausible to maintain that AR-15s are now illegal, since they can be readily equipped with such accessories. In an interview with The New York Times, Lawrence Keane, general counsel for the gun industry’s National Shooting Sports Foundation, noted that an AR-15 is “customizable, but the underlying semiautomatic action is not altered.” That’s true, but it does not matter under the Trump administration’s unilateral redefinition of machine guns.

– Jacob Sullum in Relying on the Same Illogic That Trump Used to Ban Bump Stocks, a New Lawsuit Argues That Customizable Rifles Are Illegal

comments

  1. avatar Thixotropic says:

    Laughable

    1. avatar Mister Fleas says:

      You won’t think it is funny when an activist judge allows the lawsuit to proceed, like the lawsuit against Remington. The law firm, and the Koskoff family specifically has a relationship with the Clintons. The law firm are serious donors to the Democratic party. This law firm won’t settle for a sealed settlement; it is going to try find a way around the P.L.C.C.A. so the firearm manufacturers will by bankrupted by frivolous lawsuits like these. That was a Clinton backed plan, remember?

      1. avatar Miner49er says:

        Clinton? Did Clinton ban bump stocks? I think you were getting your administrations a bit mixed up.

        Bump stocks came up during the Obama administration, who ruled that they were legal accessories.

        It was the other parties president, Republican president Trump who used regulatory fiat to ban bump stocks.

        “the ATF repeatedly said bump stocks were legal before reversing itself under Trump’s orders after the Las Vegas attack”

        Y’all was snookered by Donald Trump, an NYC billionaire who cares not for working people or their rights.

        Soon you will yearn for the good ol’ days of President Barack Obama and vice president Joe Biden.

        1. avatar Carl B. says:

          How much is Soros paying you?

        2. avatar DrDKW says:

          Except, it wouldn’t be the good old days of Barak, but the ‘new world order’ of Madam Premier Hillary’s Australian-style gun control.

        3. avatar Don't Feed The Soros Trolls says:

          @Miner49er; “Clinton? Did Clinton ban bump stocks?”

          Nah, Clinton skipped right over bump stocks and banned semi-automatic firearms.

          Wow you Soros trolls are some ignorant S.O.B.’S

        4. avatar Miner49er says:

          “Clinton banned semi-automatic firearms”

          Really? I must’ve missed that, I can tell you that I bought and sold many semi automatic firearms during Bill Clinton’s presidency.

          I found it interesting that many accuse me of being paid by George Soros. Perhaps in your world that’s the standard operating procedure, to accept money and spew forth propaganda.

          Here in the mountains of West Virginia, we tend to honor the truth and have nothing but contempt for those who would lie and misrepresent reality.

          The facts are the facts, and when you attack me personally you just show that you are willing to ignore the facts in order to support your fantasy. Sad.

        5. avatar Big E says:

          Obama is a turd and so is everyone that voted for him.

        6. avatar Rattlerjake says:

          @miner49er – Hey dimwit, maybe you should actually do some reading and research before showing your true stupidity! Straight from the leftist run Wikipedia, [“The gun control policy of the Bill Clinton administration was the White House’s domestic policy on guns during Bill Clinton’s term in office as President of the United States from 1993 to 2001. Gun control was a major political issue in the first half of Clinton’s first term and during that time he lobbied for, and signed, two major pieces of gun control legislation, the Brady Bill and the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban.”]

        7. avatar Miner49er says:

          “signed, two major pieces of gun control legislation, the Brady Bill and the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban.”]

          So, in fact, Clinton did not ban semi-automatic weapons. Just a very specific ban on a specific type of weapon for a limited period of time.

          “Obama is a turd”

          Is that all you got? What are you, 12 years old?

          Yes, you seem mature and reasonable enough to own a 90 round drum magazine in an A.R. 15. Rest easy America, adolescents are now armed better than the police.

        8. avatar Ardent says:

          Are you actually willing to make the argument that Trump is less friendly to the 2A than Obama? If so, please cite your rational.

        9. avatar Michael says:

          There are 3 gun laws that violate the Second Amendment.
          1.The 1934 Falstead act.
          2.1968 LBJ NO Negro gets a gun control act
          3.The 1986 BS Machine gun control act.

          Obama did not pay attention to all regulatory laws he was to busy lying and spending money where the Clintons wanted it to go. The Other reply was right The Clinton’s Ran Obama Not Moochelle you dumb ass. Bite me you mean Creepy {Pedophile)Joe was a Frequent Customer with Bill and Epstein. Your DNC Thug world Democracy is now ending. This lawsuit Violates The FFPA Signed on top of the UnConstitutional Machine gun act by Reagan, he knew what he was doing on the FFPA.And Any M16 manufactured before 1986 is legal to own and a SOT permit is needed for special use like a Gun Range to use any upgraded MG in NV. so quit saying Machine guns are illegal or a Gunshow is a loophole to sell guns to unknown criminals a complete lie you dimtards believe in, to sell guns illegally, and quit listening to the worst POTUS ever, Mr. AKA BARRY SOTERO Barack the Lying so-called Christian Muslim Obuma.

      2. avatar Michael says:

        Ah Commrad, KosKoff eh? is it deep ties to the Kremlin Stalin dream to take out Amuriuca?

    2. avatar Geoff "Guns. Lots of guns." PR says:

      “Laughable”

      I’m not that old, and I remember when everybody was laughing about trying to sue cigarette companies for, get this – Claiming cigarettes caused their lung cancer.

      They laughed, and laughed, and laughed some more…

      Care to guess who’s laughing last and best right now?

      Clue – It ain’t the ‘cancer stick’ companies. Treat these lawsuits seriously. I assure you, they damn sure are.

      “Tell a lie often enough, it becomes truth.” A murderous (are there any other kind?) Leftist…

      1. avatar Mike H in WA says:

        The difference was that the tobacco companies were actively pushing that their products were A) NOT addictive and B) did NOT cause cancer… even when their own data said the exact opposite. Tobacco was actively lying about what their product did.

        I have yet to hear anyone in the gun industry say their product isn’t capable of killing someone. The fundamental argument here is if someone creates a product that modifies your product in a way you didn’t intend for it to be used, are you liable if you don’t change the design to prevent that other product to be used with yours?

        This case is somewhat frightening because this has implications for other industries. What if someone uses a product to modify their car, and their reckless use of it cause a fatal crash… is it your fault for not changing the design of your car to prevent that other products use with it?

        1. avatar MLee says:

          So…..if I cut the filter off a cigarette…

        2. avatar Geoff "Guns. Lots of guns." PR says:

          “This case is somewhat frightening because this has implications for other industries.”

          No shit, how often does Budweiser or Jack Daniels get sued for drunk driving deaths?

        3. avatar Rattlerjake says:

          It wasn’t that they lied, it was that it was proven that they were putting harmful chemicals in their cigarettes that caused cancer and other health problems and they hid it, THEN they lied about it until a “whistleblower” released documents showing what they did.

          The difference that exists between lawsuits against the tobacco industry vs the firearms manufacturers is apples and gun power! There is nothing that the firearms industry can be sued for, because their product will not kill all by itself! Far more people are saved through responsible use of firearms, but no one is saved by cigarette use!

      2. avatar Ardent says:

        This is actually laughable, since it falls squarely under the PLCAA, which, if I recall correctly, allows for loser pays. Like the Sandy hook parents suit, this will merely result in the deluded plaintiffs paying massive fees to the gun manufacturers law firms, further strengthening the 2A. I’d like to say that I have sympathy for the plaintiffs, but the reality is that I’d like to see them shattered by the fees when they lose. Stupid is as stupid does, and no loss can change that.
        Those who seek a payday on a tragedy are trash, and those who would deny themselves a natural and civil right are fools, while those who would deny these to others are tyrants. Here’s to watching this group of tyrannical fools enrich defendants attorneys.

    3. avatar frank speak says:

      but worrisome…you could see this coming…

  2. avatar cgray says:

    Gubmint is muh daddy!!!!

  3. avatar GunnyGene says:

    Gimme ‘da money. The plaintiffs want a minimum of $15,000 each, according to the filing. That’s all this is about.

    1. avatar Miner49er says:

      $15,000 each?

      That’s all?

      That wouldn’t even retain an attorney to prosecute such a suit. This doesn’t look like gold digging or money grubbing.

      Could be just a bunch of folks who lost a loved ones in a terrible act of terror and now they want some sort of justice.

      Don’t they know mass killings like this are just the price of freedom? Ain’t nothing we can do about it, it’s just like the rain or a tornado or an earthquake, they’re just going to happen.

      1. avatar StLPro2A says:

        For once I agree with Bill O’Reilly. Bad guys shooting people is the price of freedom. Liberty is risky business. That’s why our Founding Fathers recognized our God-given right to shoot back.
        ”Killing is a matter of will, not weapons.
        You cannot control the act itself
        by passing laws about the means employed.”
        The late Col Jeff Cooper, 1958
        Handgun expert and founder of Gunsite Academy
        A politician with a law never stops a bad guy with a gun. He only controls the good guys, which is his true agenda. The bad guy with a gun…..or the mentally deficient guy with a gun……or the terribly distraught family member of a gun shooting victim…….is merely the politician’s Useful Idiot Tool to achieve his agenda.

        1. avatar JW says:

          And if the price paid in blood for freedom seems too high to some… just wait till they see the price of tyranny.

  4. avatar Jay getting angrier by the day in Florida says:

    This is turning into a classic Thunder F$%&k.
    Just because you can and don’t have to its now might be illegal??
    Add a supercharger to my cars engine is OK. Add a bump stock to my AR15 is not OK. But it used to be.
    This country is getting to be full of such bumpkin heads. Adding a stock that changes nothing. Still takes one pull of the trigger to fire the gun. What difference does it or should it matter how it does it.
    Still isn’t automatic. Now some bumble head want s to suit a gun manufacturer for what a criminal does with its legal product.
    Might as well suit car makers 35,000 times a year while we are at it.
    lets not forget pool makers. Their products cause people to drown don’t they??
    What a country full of A-holes this has become.

    1. avatar edward kenway's ghost says:

      Half educated idiots who have zero reading comprehension, can’t tell the truth from a lie, feel entitled to free sh*t, and expect to benefit from the work of others by the use of crooked lawyers.
      Yes, they vote. Unfortunately.

    2. avatar John in Ohio says:

      Public school indoctrination, MSM indoctrination, social media indoctrination, peer group pressure, and pandering to the lowest common denominator. The family is destroyed and now the all knowing State is everyone’s mama.

      “What a country full of A-holes this has become.”

      Most people have no clue what real liberty is or why it is important. We even have POTG who talk a good game until it is about something that scares them personally. Then, they will howl for government intervention. There are many things people do that I don’t personally like but I recognize that if I want to remain free, I have to show some tolerance (REAL tolerance, not the lefty-loosey kind). IMHO, there is no getting the country back from this abyss. It will require a complete break-down and remake or an outright split.

  5. avatar Cloudbuster says:

    “Bump stocks aren’t the hill to die on,” Mr. Fudd told me. “Nobody really needs a bump stock,” Mr. Fudd said. Gee, who could have predicted a bump stock ban would be a foot in the door to further ban attempts? Why, you’d have to be … someone who has simply paid attention to the tactics of the anti-gun movement for forever.

    1. avatar No one of consequence says:

      Let’s not forget, Mr Fudd also told us that nobody uses ARs to hunt deer, and that nobody needs more than three rounds at a time anyway.

      1. avatar Cloudbuster says:

        Mr. Fudd says a lot of dumb shit.

        1. avatar Green Mtn. Boy says:

          Leftard’s as a rule tend to be.

  6. avatar daveinwyo says:

    We, as Americans, have allowed stupid people to do stupid things, in the name of tolerance for entirely too long.
    Time to start spanking the brats.

    1. avatar Rattlerjake says:

      Time to start running them over with the family car!

    2. avatar Ardent says:

      I fully agree, the time to silence the stupid is long past. It used to be that saying stupid things in public would get you ridiculed, and we ought to bring that back. Much of what is called bullying and intolerance these days used to be known as common sense speaking it’s mind and we were better for it. Being told time to time that what you’re saying is just stupid is good for you, and good for us.

      That said, this particular bout of stupidity is about to cost the stupid a fortune, since they will end up on the hook for their own counsels fees and the defendants. Plaintiffs cannot hope to prevail in light of the PLCAA and they must also pay defendants legal bills.

      The only interesting suit in this case would be if plaintiffs, after losing their cause, turn around and sue their counsel and the anti rights groups that convinced them to file these obviously worthless suits in the first place. Now that’s entertainment!

      In the mean time we will have to be satisfied with these morons bankrupting themselves the same way the Sandy Hook morons did themselves in.

      Greed and stupidity seldom play well together, and this is no exception. God bless the PLCAA! Making paupers out of fools since 2005!

  7. avatar Cloudbuster says:

    And actually both this headline and the original headline are inaccurate. By the plaintiffs’ argument, all semiautomatic rifles are illegal, because we have fingers and belt loops.

    1. avatar DW says:

      Actually fingers and belt loops should be illegal.

    2. avatar Brasstard says:

      Read the actual bump stock ban ruling, it does ban all semi autos in the part where it talks about what automaticly is.

    3. avatar Patrick says:

      Assuming sturdy belt loops, any double action revolver could be “automatic” (assuming a stock or some separate grip with which to push forward).

  8. avatar The Crimson Pirate says:

    I wasn’t going to vote for Trump again because he has not overturned or undone any real gun control measures, plus he banned bumpstocks and did it badly, and he said some things about suppressors.

    Then the democraps convinced me I should vote for him anyway.

    Now this is convincing me to not vote for him again unless he undoes the bumpstock ban and makes some other progress on restoring gun rights.

    1. avatar daveinwyo says:

      No politician is perfect. The best we can do is vote for “good enough” and not let the quest for “perfect” cause us to fail in all things.
      Is Trump perfect? No, but he beats the alternative all to hell.
      So, who would you rather have? Or would you choose the worst option, and not vote at all?

      1. avatar Vic Nighthorse says:

        Why would you even bring up the word ‘perfect’ when talking about politics? Nobody believes in that gold egg laying unicorn, except Trump himself about himself (and maybe Beto about himself). I am not saying you’re wrong, just that the word “perfect” is crazy to even entertain in this context:-)

      2. avatar barnbwt says:

        I’d rather have a president who’s gun control you’d actually oppose.

        If it’s a choice between (R) gun control you won’t fight, and worse (D) gun control you will oppose and stymie, the correct answer is pretty damn clear for gun owners.

        We can vote for (R) presidents if & when the party realizes it needs us, and work to bolster the pro-gun wing of the party while holding one or both chambers of commerce.

        1. avatar Geoff "Guns. Lots of guns." PR says:

          “I’d rather have a president who’s gun control you’d actually oppose.”

          Really? Had Al Gore won, the ’94 AWB would have been *permanent*.

          No more ARs. 10 round magazines. Fun, fun, fun.

          By a 350 vote margin in Florida, we got Bush who let the ’94 AWB sunset after 10 years.

          You would have preferred Gore won in 2000? Whatever you’re smoking, can I have some from your bag?

        2. avatar Red says:

          Dam barnbwt you are thick.

          Gun control does not happen in a vacuum. <— Get that !

          I'm going to explain that (again) to you, because your argument is fallacious on so many levels.

          If gun control was THE ONLY policy that politicians covered, then and only then, you would be correct. It's not. Leftist are coming for EVERYTHING, not just guns.

          But most importantly they are going to overwhelm the U.S. with voters until they succeed. Understand that? NO MORE RED STATES. Giving them the presidency until " We can vote for (R) presidents if & when the party realizes it needs us" is the ultimate lunacy.

          Let's summarize (and I will simplify for you, because you haven't been able to follow this yet);

          … A Dem president = No Boarders = No Red States = TOTAL CONTROL ….. <— Got that?

        3. avatar John in Ohio says:

          “I’d rather have a president who’s gun control you’d actually oppose.”

          Spot on, barnbwt.

        4. avatar Miner49er says:

          Al gore was from Tennessee and had an excellent record on not pushing gun control. When Republicans went to court and got an activist set of judges to stop the recount in Florida they pushed the reasonable Al gores out of the Democrat party and allowed the liberal elite from NYC to take over.

        5. avatar barnbwt says:

          Miner,
          Once again I see you’ve taken a break from fantasies of mass murder in the name of your crummy socialist god-state to post…

          Gore was a chameleon, he was a down-home good-ol-boy on the rural campaign circuit, a stuffy intellectual nerd character in office, and once he gave up trying to thwart a lawful election, he morphed yet again into the full time jet-setting “environmental activist” he is today. That he wasn’t crazily antigun in those days, was because almost no one was (hence the “assault weapon” focus on guns that were fairly obscure). He’s as antigun as anybody today if you ask him, because he has to be as antigun as his DNC bundler employers.

      3. avatar Tarzan says:

        In reality Obama was better for gun rights than Trump by a long way. We got to have bump stocks and carry in national parks with Obama. And look how bad the republicans in Florida shafted gun owners after the parkland shooting, with their bs legislation. And with Trump talking about not liking suppressors, which could be another ban, I’m not sure I’ll bother to even vote. Trump is going to have to do something to rally gun owners to get out and vote in 2020. Otherwise he will likely lose.

        1. avatar Don't Feed The Soros Trolls says:

          Soros paid trolls are easy to spot. This one calls himself Tarazan.

        2. avatar Jay in Florida says:

          We don’t have any true republicans in Florida anymore. Just RHINOs and worse in local and state government. People can still call themselves Republicans. But our representatives who say they are, aren’t. At least here in South Eastern Florida they are all RHINOs and vote as the wind blows.

        3. avatar barnbwt says:

          Yeah, Soros paid trolls are always going on about Soros paid trolls. That’s the tell.

      4. avatar John in Ohio says:

        AOC is about as perfect as a candidate can get for the nation these days. America doesn’t need a safety-valve. It needs to see an honest-to-goodness full marxists push right in its face. The people will either wake up or get the government they deserve.

        AOC in 2020!

        1. avatar Johnathon Reston says:

          Oh look honey, crazy John from Zaire has returned, spouting all his usual nonsense.

          John from Zaire? Never heard of him.

          Oh you remember, the guy that wants to infect everyone with political Ebola, that way the nation either goes up in flames or… goes in flames!

          Yeah, I remember now, Crazy John from Zaire, but I thought he bled out his ass.

          No, no, you’re thinking the John that actually had a set and got Ebola, this one wants to infect everyone else, or he would grab his gear and go, stop waiting on everyone else. You know, lead by example.

        2. avatar John in Ohio says:

          That’s all ya got? ROTFLMFAO

    2. avatar 2aguy says:

      Sorry…..there is no other choice…Trump may be ignorant about gun rights….but the democrats are going to actively, passionately take away our guns….first, they will repeal the lawful commerce in arms act, which protects gun makers from frivolous law suits, and then the lawfare will rage…..and gun makers will go out of business….then they will unleash the Department of Justice against the gun makers…as hilary planned on doing, using the law to force gun makers to obey their gun control dreams….then the packing of the courts will proceed, followed by left wing cities banning, and confiscating guns, magazines, and anything else they can think of….and the SJW judges will declare it Constitutional….so sorry, as ignorant as Trump is, he is far better than letting the democrat run free…..

      1. avatar barnbwt says:

        Because I’m supposed to believe you’d let the Dems run roughshod with gun control, the way you do Trump? Sorry, not buying.

      2. avatar John in Ohio says:

        “Sorry…..there is no other choice…”

        AOC is a far better choice. It’s the right medicine for what ails the nation. Trump is a placebo.

        1. avatar Johnathon Reston says:

          Don’t be a placebo, lead by example, and go!

        2. avatar John in Ohio says:

          Boring troll is boring. At least try to be original. *yawn*

        3. avatar Johnathon Reston says:

          Just as I thought… All Talk

          Miner49, john in ohio, Vlad Tepes …TTAG’s Trio of Trolls

      3. avatar thunder says:

        disagree, first will come packing of the courts. Trumps court appointees are the most important things he has done for gun rights. Hillary was never going to ban certain guns, she was going to appoint judges that would have allowed others to do it.

    3. avatar Biatec says:

      I’m not voting for him again. He is not better. The lesser of two evils is just an inevitable crawl to the loss of rights. That’s it. If we don’t punish the republicans by showing them they can’t be anti constitution they will never change.

      1. avatar Mark says:

        Yes that makes sense. Vote the democrats in to teach the republicans a lesson. That should bode well for you. (sigh)

        1. avatar Biatec says:

          I never said vote for dems. Your only argument is that dems want more gun control than trump. Trump put forward worse gun control than Obama. You have not given me any real reason to support Trump. He is as bad as the dems it’s just excused.

          It’s all the same at the end of the day. It just makes people feel better to pretend it’s better to vote for trump. Easier than admitting we lost.

        2. avatar Ronin says:

          Biatec says: “I never said vote for dems.”

          Really? Then how exactly did you want to “punish the republicans” if not by enabling Dem’s? Hmmm? Would really like to hear this.

          Biatec says: “admitting we lost”

          Look in reality you bring nothing positive to the table, so how about S. T. F. U. Thanks a bunch!

        3. avatar Biatec says:

          Very adult response. I didn’t say vote dems. I said I am not voting for Trump again. We did lose with Trump. The same way we lost with the nfa, 86 machine gun ban and many other gun control losses.

          He doesn’t care about property rights, privacy, gun rights, or any other right really. Unlike you I will only vote for people who are more Constitution abiding than a democrat. he is not. I have seen no evidence that he is. He just needed to be one more amendment abiding more than a dem.

          He is all around bad and just centralizes the power more in the executive. You are giving the democrats true power and eventually because of people with your position we will be like Europe. Hopefully things change and we get founding father types in again. Unlikely though.

        4. avatar Ronin says:

          Biatec says: “Unlike you I will only vote for people who are more Constitution abiding than a democrat. (Trump) is not.”

          Biatec says: “You are giving the democrats true power”

          Your reasoning is truly mind boggling, Dem’s that want to abolish the 2nd, classify the 1st under hate speech, remove the electoral college, bring a “Green New Deal” and pack the supreme court (among many more infringements they called for) and you think they are abiding by the Constitution?

          However, forget that for a moment, and kindly answer my original question. OK? You said “If we don’t punish the republicans by showing them they can’t be anti constitution they will never change.”

          How are you going to “punish the Republicans”? Just answer that without a T.D.S. rant.

        5. avatar Biatec says:

          Not supporting Trump does not mean support for the dems. The dems will be in power again with more power because of trump and the republicans. Fiat executive orders to add new levels of gun control following trumps lead.

          Vote for constitution party, write in a candidate or if the libertarians get a good candidate. I don’t know what is so hard to understand. You think Trump would support the electoral college if it didn’t help him? He does not care about the any of that.

          I told you why I won’t and you just won’t accept my reason for not supporting him. There are things he is good on but none of it involves abiding the Constitution and respecting our rights.

      2. avatar Dan W. says:

        Unless you’re ready to start shooting it out, Trump 2020.

        1. avatar ‘liljoe says:

          A non vote for trump is a vote for Democrats, I know that, but I’m still not going to vote for him. At the end of the day I still hold true to my principles, I’m a one issue voter and that is the 2A. We would do better to have a Democrat president and republican house and senate that can stymie him or her or it (being gender neutral and all that).

          Do I think bump stocks are the 2A? No, but they hinted at the HPA and instead gave us the bump stock ban. Any restriction is bad.

          You do you, and I’ll do me… welcome to America. But he would have to do something really truly awesomely pro 2 A for me to change my mind before November 2020. One issue voter, and I’m not the only one. If he ends up doing something big pro 2A, I will absolutely vote for him, even if the economy tanks, even if war breaks out, even if every doomsday prediction the dumbocrats make up daily come true.

        2. avatar RDS says:

          I am not voting for Trump again. Care to guess what you get when you vote for the lesser of two evils? Evil. Never again. We will all reap what we sow, and if you actively choose evil, then so be it. Just don’t come knocking on my door, looking for me and mine to save you, when the lesser evil you voted for comes looking for you. Don’t worry, it’s just the lesser of the two. I’m sure there’s a way to reason with evil, right?

        3. avatar Vic Nighthorse says:

          It can be mathematically proven beyond a doubt that not voting for someone is not the same as voting for their opponent. People who think that it is are assuming that their candidate had the vote in question to begin with. If this was so, voting for the other candidate would be the same as voting for that candidate twice thus still exceeding the ‘null’ vote by one. If one doesn’t vote for candidate A or B, supporters of both claim one voted for the other candidate. It is not possible that they are both right.

        4. avatar John in Ohio says:

          “Unless you’re ready to start shooting it out, Trump 2020.”

          Exactly. AOC in 2020!

        5. avatar Hush says:

          Vic Nighthorse said, “If one doesn’t vote for candidate A or B, supporters of both claim one voted for the other candidate. It is not possible that they are both right.”
          Perhaps Schrodinger’s cat provides an explanation:

      3. avatar Ronin says:

        Biatec says: “I never said vote for dems.”

        Really? Then how exactly did you want to “punish the republicans” if not by enabling Dem’s? Hmmm? Would really like to hear this.

        Biatec says: “admitting we lost”

        Look in reality you bring nothing positive to the table, so how about S. T. F. U. Thanks!

      4. avatar Ronin says:

        Biatec says: “Unlike you I will only vote for people who are more Constitution abiding than a democrat. (Trump) is not.”

        Biatec says: “You are giving the democrats true power”

        Your reasoning is truly mind boggling, Dem’s that want to abolish the 2nd, classify the 1st under hate speech, remove the electoral college, bring a “Green New Deal” and pack the supreme court (among many more infringements they called for) and you think they are abiding by the Constitution?

        However, forget that for a moment, and kindly answer my original question. OK? You said “If we don’t punish the republicans by showing them they can’t be anti constitution they will never change.”

        How are you going to “punish the Republicans”? Just answer that without a T.D.S. rant.

    4. avatar Cloudbuster says:

      The fact that he did the ban badly is one of the only good points — it might get us out of this, if it comes before a conservative court.

      1. avatar barnbwt says:

        No such thing as a conservative court. You should know that by now. The call to put all our eggs in SCOTUS’ basket was just a ruse by antigun Trump/RNC supporters to get people to not hold him/them accountable for utterly screwing us. It’s no coincidence we keep being told to have faith in the one branch of government we have essentially no control over. We’re supposed to vote for antigun guys like Trump, and believe they will nominate justices that overturn their own legacy. Moronic.

        1. avatar John in Ohio says:

          Yep. Again, I agree with you.

    5. avatar frank speak says:

      let’s not forget red-flag laws…something infinitely more threatening than anything obama did…

  9. avatar No one of consequence says:

    From the NY Times article (referenced by the Reason.con article the TTAG article links to):

    “The attorney for the Parsons family, Joshua Koskoff, is representing relatives of victims of the Newtown school massacre in a similar lawsuit.”

    That explains a lot, actually.

    I have to wonder if the plaintiffs will, as in the suit against Lucky Gunner, be left holding extensive legal bills. Assuming their suits fail, which they should but these days isn’t guaranteed.

    1. avatar Karl says:

      Lawyers gonna get paid… hold lawyers 50 percent accountable for cost of legal bills for frivolous lawsuits and watch them dry up.

  10. avatar Hank says:

    Well here it is. Here is the legal rationale the next democrat will use to try and ban all semi autos by executive fiat. The time to stock up is now y’all because the next panic is comin and comin fast.

  11. avatar Rusty Chains says:

    So, has this been assigned to an Obama appointed judge? Because no matter what that fool John Roberts says, it matters a great deal

  12. avatar 2aguy says:

    Sorry…..there is no other choice…Trump may be ignorant about gun rights….but the democrats are going to actively, passionately take away our guns….first, they will repeal the lawful commerce in arms act, which protects gun makers from frivolous law suits, and then the lawfare will rage…..and gun makers will go out of business….then they will unleash the Department of Justice against the gun makers…as hilary planned on doing, using the law to force gun makers to obey their gun control dreams….then the packing of the courts will proceed, followed by left wing cities banning, and confiscating guns, magazines, and anything else they can think of….and the SJW judges will declare it Constitutional….so sorry, as ignorant as Trump is, he is far better than letting the democrat run free…..

    1. avatar Hannibal says:

      Trump has passed more gun control in half of one term than Obama did in two full ones.

      Tell me more about how it’s the only choice.

      1. avatar Miner49er says:

        But the Donald stood there and he said he supported the 2A!?!?

        He also promised better healthcare at lower cost that would cover more people.

        He also said that he would never go golfing, and spend all his time at the White House working.

        Does anyone see a pattern here?

      2. avatar frank speak says:

        think what he could do with a second term….perhaps you ain’t seen nuthin’ yet!….

        1. avatar Miner49er says:

          Oh boy, another infrastructure week!

  13. avatar 2aguy says:

    The way to push back…..vote out every single democrat who even hints at gun control….this is how it was done in the 1990s, and they stopped pushing gun control through congress…….and they changed tactics to go for cities and towns with judges declaring the local anti-gun activity legal……stop voting for democrats, stop refusing to vote because you don’t like something about a republican……republicans suck, the democrats are driven…..the democrats will take guns when they have the votes…the only thing that might hold them back is to make them lose so many seats, they don’t want to risk their own political careers for gun control……stop sitting at home, vote against every single democrat you can at the local, state and federal level……..anything else is just slow walking gun control…

    1. avatar Leighton Cavendish says:

      And yet it was Trump that outlawed bump stocks…go figure…RINO?

      1. avatar barnbwt says:

        And Republican majorities that passed sweeping gun control in NY and Florida (which El Trumpo highly praised)

        We gotta learn who our friends are; giys like 2a…aren’t. They’re Republicans, and that means they don’t necessarily give a crap about gun control, they just don’t want the Dems to get that ‘win.’ They’ll fight DNC gun control policy tooth & nail, but will happily tolerate or even celebrate RNC gun control. There’s no greater enemy to our rights than an antigun Republican. It’s like people have already forgotten why Fudds are so hated; it’s not because they are antigun, it’s because they are so dangerous.

        1. avatar Sebastian says:

          I read what 2A said, and I read what you said barnbwt, and I will take 2A’s approach over your’s everyday.

          You are not a serious 2nd supporter, you argue against yourself, you just aren’t clever enough to realize it.

      2. avatar LibertyToad says:

        This is one example of the problem. Hillary would have been worse. As much as we all may want to, you cannot be an absolutist on this issue at this point. It doesn’t contribute to the solution.

      3. avatar ozzallos says:

        Yes, because you can really compare the direction this country has taken versus mccain, right?

        Labelling trump a rino is a gross simplification and criminally ignorant on ypur part.

    2. avatar Cloudbuster says:

      vote out every single democrat

      You could have ended that sentence right there.

  14. avatar Leighton Cavendish says:

    Even Obama did not outlaw bump stocks…hmmm
    Are suppressors next? Scopes? Triggers? Fast fingers?

    1. avatar Jim Warren says:

      Binary triggers are already going the way of the bump stock.

      1. avatar Geoff "Guns. Lots of guns." PR says:

        Have already gone in Florida…

    2. avatar ozzallos says:

      So you would rather have obama as the president, or his replacement hillary.
      Gotcha.

    3. avatar frank speak says:

      “are suppressors next”?…quite possibly…things are moving quickly….

  15. avatar Mark says:

    I was listening to Alan Gottleib on Lock N Load recently and he said in spite of Trump’s stupid remarks on interviews and Twitter, Trump is the most pro gun President Alan has seen in his lifetime. Alan has also met with Trump several times and believes that Trump is on our side. He just needs more educations on certain issues. You can process that information as how you see fit, but I personally trust SAF and I donate to them often.

    1. avatar barnbwt says:

      He’s full of shit; he just doesn’t want to attract Trump’s ire. Trump is easing ITAR restrictions on gun parts; that’s the most significant thing he’s done. That it’s more than our last (1,2,3,4,5,6…) antigun presidents could muster doesn’t change the fact it is objectively small potatoes. Beyond that Trump’s put up import bans, but semiautos & hicap mags at risk with the bumpstock stuff, and worst of all agitated for gun control alongside our worst enemies, spurring them to victory in one of the last remaining urban centers with decent gun rights (Florida).

      1. avatar Miner49er says:

        Of course Trump has eased restrictions on the international movement of guns and parts, his handlers profit from conflict and war.

        Just look at the billions in weapons we’re selling the Muslim terrorists in Saudi Arabia, plenty of profit there for trumps political owners.

        Just like Oliver North’s sales of weapons to Iran’s Ayatollahs, profit over people.

        Hey wait a minute, do you think Iran might use some of those American weapons to kill US troops when Trump declares war on Iran for political reasons?

        1. avatar pwrserge says:

          Fuck off commie. We should have glassed Iran into a parking lot decades ago and you know it.

        2. avatar Miner49er says:

          Do you mean when we overthrew Iran’s democratically elected president back in 53 so we could steal their oil?

          What right do we have to use poison gas on another country that has never attacked the US without provocation?

          It might be enlightening for you to research the golf of Tonkin incident. Trump is looking for the identical situation now to justify a war on Iran so that he can divert attention away from his treason and corruption.

        3. avatar Miner49er says:

          Face it, PWRSERGE. NRA president Oliver North engineered the sale of millions of dollars of weapons to the Muslim fundamentalists in Iran. And now Trump is pushing for the sale of millions of weapons to the Muslim fundamentalists in Saudi Arabia, those wacky people who brought you 9/11.

          Gee, the facts are pretty clear, The Republicans are the biggest supporters of Muslim fundamentalist terrorism because they profit to the tune of billions from the blood.

        4. avatar pwrserge says:

          Yeah… how dare we not allow a “democratic” government to seize the assets of US citizens without compensation and not allow a bunch of jumped up goat rapists to dictate to the greatest nation on earth?

          The reality is that communism and islamism needs to be fought wherever it appears. By any means necessary.

          The only traitor in this conversation is you commie.

        5. avatar barnbwt says:

          Trump’s done quite a bit less war mongering & arms selling than recent presidents…and a damn sight less than any of your socialist hero “revolutionary” dictator monsters. Selling shit to Saudis is nothing new like it or not.

          If Trump has ‘handlers’ they must be mighty frustrated by how he randomly flails, spills beans, perpetually fucks up, and pisses off the wrong people. I can’t imagine a worse puppet to work evul hoodoo through.

        6. avatar Miner49er says:

          pwrserge, ignore history much?

          Yep, Iran had a democratically elected government that was controlling their natural resources rather then allowing multinational robber baron corporations to step in and steal them through political corruption.

          “The 1953 Iranian coup d’état, known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup d’état (Persian: کودتای ۲۸ مرداد‎), was the overthrow of the democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh in favour of strengthening the monarchical rule of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the United States (under the name TPAJAX Project[5] or “Operation Ajax”) and the United Kingdom (under the name “Operation Boot”), [6][7][8][9] and the first United States covert action to overthrow a foreign government during peacetime.[10]”

          Because the United States helped to overthrow their democratically elected government and assassinate their president, the Iranians quite rightly think the USA is the great Satan.

          Just because you are ignorant of history doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

        7. avatar Miner49er says:

          Here’s another history lesson for you, it’s all about stealing another countries resources for fun and profit, using the American military as your bully boy enforcer.

          You should read the writings of Marine General Smedley Butler, one of the few American heroes to win to Congressional medal of honor TWICE.
          Perhaps if you read his writings on why America goes to war you’ll learn that you were just a pawn of the multinational corporations who don’t care whose blood they shed to make their billions.

          “Known as Operation Ajax, the CIA plot was ultimately about oil. Western firms had for decades controlled the region’s oil wealth, whether Arabian-American Oil Company in Saudi Arabia, or the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company in Iran. When the U.S. firm in Saudi Arabia bowed to pressure in late 1950 and agreed to share oil revenues evenly with Riyadh, the British concession in Iran came under intense pressure to follow suit. But London adamantly refused.

          So in early 1951, amid great popular acclaim, Mossadegh nationalized Iran’s oil industry. A fuming United Kingdom began conspiring with U.S. intelligence services to overthrow Mossadegh and restore the monarchy under the shah. (Though some in the U.S. State Department, the newly released cables show, blamed British intransigence for the tensions and sought to work with Mossadegh.)”

        8. avatar pwrserge says:

          I am well aware of how the goat rapists tried to steal what didn’t belong to them. Nationalizing assets belonging to citizens of another country is an act of war.

        9. avatar Shallnot BeInfringed says:

          I weep for what has become of American society these days… “Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right – here I am, stuck in the middle with you.”

      2. avatar Red says:

        See barn how how foolish you are on this issue?

        You have one of TTAG’s regular leftist trolls Miner49, agreeing with you.

        Pathetic

        1. avatar barnbwt says:

          We both don’t like Trump, for different reasons; that’s the extent of it.

          If you only support people.simply because leftists appear to hate them…you’re allowing the leftists to control your actions. That’s dumb. All their leaders must do is promote hatred of the worst opposition candidate (not the strongest) and they are guaranteed either an easier win or at worst an incompetent opponent to face while they regroup. A sandwich could have beaten Hillary, and yet Trump still nearly lost the election, only winning by half as many votes as the number of bump stock owners he screwed over. His administration’s been unable to do much of anything permanent, and is completely unable to control or collaborate with his own people in congress. I can’t imagine a better environment for Dems to regroup from.

    2. avatar route66paul says:

      Alan Gottleib was born in 1947, so was there with Truman, Ike and JFK as presidents. I was born later, but even I knew that JFK was a 2nd A supporter. I don’t know for sure about Ike or Truman, but I suspect they were also.

      1. avatar frank speak says:

        Truman?..Ike?..JFK?….how many had or could get gun permits back then?…most people didn’t even own a pistol…or see the need to…other than that though,..firearms restrictions were virtually nil during that era…..

  16. avatar LibertyToad says:

    That is just horrible logic. Just because you can make something illegal does not make it illegal before changing it. It’s an argument for 5th-graders–not for people with adult-level reasoning skills.

    1. avatar Cloudbuster says:

      It’s an argument for 5th-graders–not for people with adult-level reasoning skills.

      So you’re saying it’s tuned perfectly for the American voting public.

      1. avatar LibertyToad says:

        Sadly, yes I do.

        It’s difficult to debate this issue with people who ignore the facts and think they understand the issue when they are actually largely ignorant of it.

  17. avatar Ranger Rick says:

    Has any attorney to date been able to secure a financial judgment for their client(s) from the estates, governments or the perpetrators of these mass murders?

    I can’t recall but, perhaps I’m mistaken.

  18. avatar former water walker says:

    Ah Las Vegas…the biggest cover-up since JFK. THEY told us “he used a bumpstock”…😏

    1. avatar Eli2016 says:

      Well they just fired the cop who WAITED on the floor below and did not go up.

  19. avatar Timothy Toroian says:

    I could probably get self-driving cars declared illegal because they can be hacked and used as weapons especially with all the cameras on them so the hacker could direct them into people or structures. I may try if more people attempt to get legal items declared illegal. It’s kind of like when switchblades were made illegal based on a frigging MOVIE!

    1. avatar frank speak says:

      actually, a slew of movies…switchblades and snub-nosed revolvers were the bad boys of the fifties…in an era when you can purchase an AR-15, laws regulating switchblades seem ridiculously archaic…yet they remain on the books….

  20. avatar JP Ruiz says:

    There are still gunowners out there who think, regarding a future ban and confiscation of all semiautos, “can’t happen here”, “it’s unconstitutional”.

    “Conservatives” are their own worst enemies when it comes to battling the left. In all honesty I’m tired of hearing the whining and crying about these bans being “unconstitutional”. The Stalinist fuck-up, progressive filth in this Country don’t give a fuck about the Constitution. It’s their rule, their dictate, their word, you submit, or off to the death-camp/gulag/mass-grave.

    One of the big things that’s happened since summer of 2017 is gunowners getting complacent, including all those “Patriotic Conservatives”. We allowed the Left to flood our Office Holders with physical protests and media showings while too many of us never held our Office Holders over the coals.

    1. avatar frank speak says:

      they actually talked seriously about placing rifles like the AR-15 under the NFA during the Reagan administration…republicans are not always your friend…

  21. avatar Grumpster says:

    AR-15s are not illegal. Murdering people with any firearm is illegal.

    If gun owners do not support and vote for President Trump in 2020 then they have no one to blame but themselves when their favorite firearms are banned and confiscated but they would have the satisfaction of saying “well I showed him” as the ATF agents are going through their homes confiscating their firearms – brilliant strategy.

    The reality is that no President Trump has not been perfect on Second Amendment Rights but he has been by far the best in my lifetime and his judicial appointments at SCOTUS with Brett Kavanaugh and Neil Gorsuch along with the dozens of federal level judges, including the three to the Seventh that covers Illinois, will have lasting impact far past when he is no longer president which would have all been progressive liberals if HRC was elected and we may have seen Heller overturned already as she promised and a new AWB in place with no grandfathering of existing ones.

    1. avatar JP Ruiz says:

      The Jurry is still out on Kavanaugh over the gun rights issue. Thomas and Alito are the staunchest 2nd Amendment defenders on the SCOTUS, and Gorsuch isn’t on that level.

      Roberts is a no good fucking scumbag, and we as gunowners should be prepared for the worst in him betraying us as he did for the Country regarding Maobamacare twice, and the Citizenship Question on the US Census.

      On Maobamacare and the Census, Roberts didn’t want to “offend” the Progressive Scum because he would’ve been called a racist-fascist-neonazi-kkkgrandwizard-bigoted-islamophobic-homophobe.

      If an Assault Weapons Ban, Gunowners Liability Insurance (POLL-TAX on the 2nd Amendment) Australia-Style Confiscation Law, etc, etc, ever makes it’s way to the SCOTUS, I’m sure that the Democrat Party Billionaire Donor Class will trot out David Hogg to call the 4 Conservative Justices on the Court, “CHILD MURDERS” for upholding the2nd Amendment in striking down unconstitutional gun laws…………..

      John Roberts will vote with the 4 Leftwing Communists on the Court to erase the 2nd Amendment from the Bill Of Rights.

    2. avatar John in Ohio says:

      “as the ATF agents are going through their homes confiscating their firearms”

      Well, at least some of the myopic pussies might actually take a physical stand for their rights.

      Trump is a safety valve and has been more dangerous to liberty than the most rabid communist currently in American office could be. People let someone they think is an ally in closer. Such a person can do far more damage. When someone recognizes someone else as an enemy, they prepare and fight earlier. So many people are giving Trump a pass on his running roughshod over rights because they believe him to be an ally. This is dangerous to liberty.

      1. avatar pwrserge says:

        Yes… because clearly 8 years of deadlock under Obama and a constant swerving to the far left by the Demokkkommie party is completely preferable to Trump. God you morons never cease to amaze me. The Demokkkommies cannot be allowed anywhere near power as they are right now. It doesn’t matter what it costs in the short term, the long term damage they will cause to the country is irreparable.

        1. avatar John in Ohio says:

          Sorry kiddo… (insert whatever bullshit the kommie-kid PWRstooge general writes).

    3. avatar Warlocc says:

      Trump has done more harm to personal property than any of the last few Democrat presidents COMBINED. At this point, they don’t seem so bad.

    4. avatar frank speak says:

      the ATF…as it’s presently constituted..is ill-equipped to do that…stopping manufacture and sale while making ownership illegal is quite doable though….leaving you to worry about somebody ratting you out…much like the situation the bump-stock owners find themselves in…

  22. avatar Anymouse says:

    This really is stupid logic. They shouldn’t have made AR-15s because 50 years later a previously legal 3rd party accessory would be redeclared a machine gun by fiat. Gun companies should have a better fortune teller or invented a time machine.
    The suit might have better luck going after Slide Fire Solutions, the holder of the bump stock patent. I’m not sure they’re covered by PLCAA since they didn’t make arms or ammo and might not have held a manufacturing FFL. Of course, I’m using the past tense because they don’t sell anything now and have essentially ceased operations. They don’t have much money and their product has already been banned, so there’s not much point.

  23. avatar Anymouse says:

    The NRA didn’t favor reclassification of bump stocks as machine guns. They did call for the review, but the review could have reaffirmed the previous rules. The NRA posted a thorough and lengthy response during the regulation’s comment period about why they shouldn’t be classified as machine guns.

    1. avatar John in Ohio says:

      “They did call for the review, ”

      And that was a terrible idea. It was unnecessary. Bumpstocks were already reviewed under Obama and found to not be machine guns. All Negotiating Rights Away had to do was keep hammering that point. The left wouldn’t have wanted their lord and savior Obama’s legacy to be tarnished and the whole thing likely would’ve blown right past.

    2. avatar barnbwt says:

      You might want to read up on the NRA’s position regarding bump stocks; former #3 now #2 figure Marion Hammer wrote an article in her official NRA capacity, stating the org has always opposed machineguns (funny, I recall they promised to overturn Hughes) and that bump stocks are an illegal conversion device that should have never been approved.

  24. avatar Austin Powers says:

    To become illegal, you have to add a thing, so the thing before you add the other thing to make it illegal, must be illegal?

    I’ve gone crosseyed…

  25. avatar dava golino says:

    Democrats flat out say they want to disarm America, while republicans lie, saying they will protect the 2nd amendment, all the while they VALIDATE LAWS THAT SLOWLY ARE DISARMING THIS COUNTRY. We all need to stop wasting time with the BS Russia HOAX. IT WAS NEVER Russia GATE……. It is Israelgate Zionistgate. It is going to happen again with the 2020 election because of. US “ElectionGuard” Voting Software. With Rogers — who is now employed by the Microsoft-funded and Israeli military intelligence-connected company Team8! President trump has throw 5 million 2nd amendment owners under the bus by his validating the RED FLAG LAWS, take the guns first,let the courts sort it out later. He Said he would work with Russia to defeat ISIS, instead our military got in Russia’s way and in many cases allowed ISIS to get away. he said no more wars in the middle east instead at the behest of the Zionist Israeli and Saudi Genie Energy thugs, we are warring all over the middle east. Julian Assange, helped trump get elected, now he is throwing him under the bus. I guess he is confident that Israel will get him elected, AGAIN… Israel is Involved With US “ElectionGuard” Voting Software. With Rogers — who is now employed by the Microsoft-funded and Israeli military intelligence-connected company Team8 — having lobbied for the direct involvement of US government agencies, including the NSA and DHS, in supervising elections, it seems likely that ElectionGuard will help enable those agencies to surveillance US elections with particular ease, especially given Microsoft’s past of behind-the-scenes collaboration with the NSA. Given that ElectionGuard’s system as currently described is neither as “secure” nor as “verifiable” as Microsoft is claiming, it seems clear that the conflicts of interests of its developers, particularly their connections to the US and Israeli militaries, are a recipe for disaster and tantamount to a takeover of the American election system by the military-industrial complex. “The great irony, and tragedy, here,” according to election forensics analyst Jonathan Simon, “is that we could so easily go the opposite direction and quickly solve all the problems of election security if we got the computers out of the voting process and were willing to collectively invest the modicum of effort needed for humans to count votes observably in public as they once did. If democracy is not worth that effort, perhaps we don’t deserve it.”

    1. avatar barnbwt says:

      Velcro shoes & sweat pants?

  26. avatar Chuck says:

    The Bump Stock ruling and ATF’s false and idiotic description of how a Bump Stock functions are on appeal. How that will play out? God only knows. The AR design has been around for 63 years. It’s modularity, the ease and ability to change various components of the firearm and adapt it for differing purposes, were part and parcel to the original design for specific reasons, which remain to this day. Bump Fire and Bump Stocks are two different things. The former, a technique that’s been known in gun circles for 50+ years. The latter, simply a device that facilitates the technique. You don’t have to have a Bump Stock to Bump Fire, but it does make the technique easier to learn, use and control. Those facts on their own, not only illustrate the faulty reasoning of the ATF, but negates the purpose of the ban, simply because it’s impossible to legislate a technique away or make it a crime to know and/or use a technique. Hopefully, legal minds will see this point and rule the ATF’s rule change as illegal. Time will tell.
    Manufacturers making AR components and finished rifles, carbines, SBR’s and pistols, cannot predict which gun coming off an assembly line, will be used in the commission of a crime, or which gun will be stolen. Anyone saying the gun manufacturer’s are responsible because they made the gun is simplistic at best and imbecilic at the worst. No one, has a crystal ball to foresee future criminal acts, to believe otherwise is asinine. Pointing at an inanimate object, device or tool, and blaming it for the crime it was used in, deflects from holding the perpetrator responsible for their crimes. If a drunk driver uses a Ford Escort and injures or kills someone, we don’t demand that Ford stops making the Escort (or whatever manufacturer’s vehicle was used to commit a criminal act), so why are attorneys choosing to target gun makers for their products use in a crime? The same principle applies to any product used in a crime.
    From Columbine to Highland’s Ranch, every school shooting save Parkland (and I’ll return to it), occurred with weapons obtained through illegal means, whether Black Market, Straw Purchase or Stolen Firearms. The shooter’s gained possession of a weapon they were not the legal purchaser of. This is why the Connetticut Supreme Court’s ruling that the victims and families could file suit against Remington totally ignores that little fact. Lanza, was neither the legal purchaser or owner of the weapons he used. He murdered the legal purchaser and owner, his mother, to obtain possession of the weapons. The court’s decision that Remington’s marketing of a product, contributed to its use in the commission of a crime is fundamentally flawed for that reason alone. The other shootings reflect similar criminal acts used by the murderers to obtain possession. Parkland’s shooting was different, it was a legally possessed weapon, but had the School District, the Broward County Sheriff’s Dept, the Florida Bureau of investigation and the FBI not marginalized, ignored and covered up that young man’s obvious descent into Mental Health Hell, he would not have been able to make his purchase. How many warning flags were ignored? Scores of them in review.
    The Vegas Shooting gives me pause, the alleged shooter’s death, the limited access the FBI, ATF and DHS had to the crime scene, the dependance upon the Vegas Law Enforcement for forensic evidence, Audio of the shooting, No history of the shooter and the lack of a manifesto by the shooter, and other factors raises a lot of questions in my mind, that have not to date been adequetely answered. I don’t usually prescribe to conspiracy theories, but in the Vegas Shooting, I have to admit there’s something nefarious about it. Multiple Survivors claim of gunfire coming from multiple directions is quietly swept under the carpet. Audio review certainly lends itself towards more than one shooter, although I know that the echo from structural reflection may be at play, an independant analysis of the audio hasn’t been performed that I’m aware of, and this might lay the multiple shooter claims either as true or false. There’s enough of a clamp down on speculation concerning the Vegas shooting, that it has the air of a conspiracy. Forensically, we’ve yet to see which gun/guns the shooter used, or the evidence that said weapons were equipped with a Bump Stock. All we know is that he had numerous weapons and some were equipped with Bump Stocks and some weren’t. It’s a conundrum.

    1. avatar frank speak says:

      ATF does what they’re told…their direction comes from above….

    2. avatar Chip in Florida says:

      “…, but negates the purpose of the ban, ”

      Doesn’t matter. The ban has the desired chilling effects because the people who made the devices quit making them and are very unlikely to start making them if the courts say the ban is wrong. Would you want to risk spending money to make a device knowing that the minute some criminal uses it they are coming after you for making it?

  27. avatar daveinwyo says:

    Wow!
    This single article has brought more idiots out of the closet than any other article I have ever seen on TTAG.
    The vast majority that have Trump living in their heads rent free is truly mind boggling.
    Don’t vote! Won’t vote for Trump! Let the dems win! Trump is not pro 2A! He went golfing! Vote AOC!
    I thought most readers of TTAG had at least a “smidgen” of intelligence and knowledge of politics and the constitution. Guess I was fooled. Or the trolls/antifa have finally found TTAG
    Fools, all.
    Ben was right. A Republic….If you can keep it.
    We WILL get the government we deserve.

    1. avatar John in Ohio says:

      “Vote AOC!”

      Now you’re talking! 🙂

      1. avatar daveinwyo says:

        You obviously mis-read my comment, poor reading skills or just a troll?
        AOC is the best example of the dumbing down of America. A gum snapping, like, total, like airhead with delusions of intelligence. 29 going on 12.
        My gripe; we shoot antifa as domestic terrorists. Then hang the damnocrats from the taxpayer funded lamp post in DC.

  28. avatar Aleric says:

    Im waiting for the NRA to jump on the bandwagon and endorse banning the AR-15 so they can please all the FUDDS who are about the only ones left supporting them.

    1. avatar frank speak says:

      most of the NRA’s problems are self-inflicted…don’t think they want to add another log to the fire…

  29. avatar Joseph says:

    I thought there was a fucking federal law against these kinds of law suits against gun manufacturers. Why are they still being filed?

    1. avatar Mister Fleas says:

      This lawsuit is political. The law firm in this suit, and the Koskoff family specifically has a relationship with the Clintons. They are looking for a way around the P.L.C.C.A. Just like the lawsuit against Bushmaster by the Sandy Hook families as mentioned in this article:

      https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/14/nyregion/sandy-hook-supreme-court.html

  30. avatar Chip in Florida says:

    So a thing that was legal to own since it’s first day of manufacturing is now suddenly illegal because someone made an after-market modification device?

    Does that mean I could make a device for the Toyota Camry that alters the engine performance in such a way as to push it past the “street legal” limits and render ALL of the Camry’s to race car status making everyone who owns one a criminal because every Camry is compatible with my device?

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