By Lee Williams
In their latest hit piece about an inanimate object, NBC News once again ignores facts, common sense and takes frequent liberties with the truth.
The story, which was somehow labeled news rather than opinion, was published Sunday, titled: “What makes the AR-15 so beloved and so reviled: A rifle with military origins has become one of the country’s most divisive consumer products.”
For the two reporters who wrote the article, the problems began from the start. The headline is misleading – the military origins bit. Even the Poynter Institute, a journalism think tank infamous for its anti-gun stories and its liberal and laughable PolitiFact website, takes issue with this claim.
In a story published last year, Poynter tracked the origins on the AR-15 and found it was “first developed in the 1950s for civilian use.”
Poynter understands that today’s civilian semi-automatic AR has never been a military rifle. Eugene Stoner’s original AR-15 prototype, which later became the M16, was a select-fire weapon. The civilian version has always been semi-automatic. Thus, it was never designed for battle. It was designed for the civilian marketplace. No military has issued a semi-auto AR to their troops.
Gaslighting
In their story, NBC News gaslights its readers about the effectiveness of the Bill Clinton’s “assault weapon” ban, which for 10 years banned the manufacture, sale or transfer of a large number of “assault weapons,” including several handguns and standard-capacity magazines. Joe Biden has frequently taken credit for the ban and falsely claimed it “brought down these mass killings,” which fact-checkers have repeatedly said is a false statement.
“The effects of bans on mass shootings are difficult to determine. Researchers have found that the number of victims decreased when a nationwide ban on certain kinds of semi-automatic guns, including AR-15s, was in effect from 1994 to 2004,” the NBC story states. “Researchers also say the number of mass shootings rose after the ban ended. But they acknowledge that it is difficult to prove cause and effect.”
This is complete bunk. A study commissioned by the Department of Justice in 2004 found no evidence that the ban had any effect on “gun violence.”
“Should it be renewed,” the DOJ study states, “the ban’s effects on gun violence are likely to be small at best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement.”
NBC claimed that researchers with the RAND Corporation, “looked at several studies of state and federal bans and found the evidence inconclusive.” RAND’s findings were actually a bit more concrete. They found no link between bans of “assault weapons” and standard-capacity magazines and decreases in violent crime.
BREAKING NEWS: Rifles more powerful than pistols
Sometimes the ignorance of today’s legacy media is simply stunning, especially when they’re writing about firearms.
“Compared to handguns, AR-15s inflict much more damage to human tissue because of the faster speed at which the rifles fire bullets. Those projectiles are also more likely to break apart as they pass through the body, inflicting more damage. That makes victims more likely to have more serious injuries and more blood loss and more likely to die than with guns that fire with lower velocities,” the NBC story states.
Wow.
Don’t tell them about the .30-06, the 8mm Mauser, the 7.62x54mmR, the 7.62x51mm NATO, or any other military-issue rifle round, especially the .50 BMG.
As to whether the round breaks apart, even the most novice shooter knows that a bullet’s performance – whether it bores a clean hole through the target or expands after impact – is not a characteristic of the weapon, but of the ammunition that’s fed into the weapon.
Their high-velocity theory leaves a lot to be desired, too. I wonder how they’d explain the wounds that a 1911’s 230-grain fight-stopper can cause, even though the bullet’s traveling at third of the speed of a “high velocity” AR round.
There’s a reason that ballistics is considered a science, and the authors of this story … well … these kids are definitely not scientists.
Fake news
The authors cite a 2022 investigation by the U.S. House Committee on Oversight and Reform into the firearm industry’s marketing campaigns, which they acknowledge was led by Democrats. According to the authors’ interpretation of the investigation, gun companies “tout assault rifles’ military pedigree, make covert references to violent white supremacists like the Boogaloo Boys, and prey on young men’s insecurities by claiming their weapons will put them ‘at the top of the testosterone food chain.’”
For anyone with even the most meager knowledge of firearms and how they’re marketed, this absolutely screams fake news. It may be the second-dumbest concept in entire the story, but first place goes to this gem: “The (AR) issue has split the nation.”
Nope.
The AR “issue” has definitely not split the nation. ARs are flying off the shelves for a variety of good reasons. There are more than 25 million in gun safes all across the country. It became “America’s Rifle” long ago.
The only people on the other side of the issue are those who want to demonize the inanimate object and use it as a cudgel to leverage more gun control. This is all part of their playbook. They’re targeting ARs today. Tomorrow they’ll target all semi-autos, the next day everything else. ARs are just the first step toward their ultimate goal of total civilian disarmament.
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This story is part of the Second Amendment Foundation’s Investigative Journalism Project and is published here with their permission.
Lexington and Concord…………..and Dorchester Heights………… I give you evidence that Massachusetts is a “stand your ground” state…..
Was, no longer since limp wrists have taken over the state capital in Mass, Conn, R.I. N.Y, N.J. Maryland, Delaware, Virginia, Illinois, Michigan, New Mexico, Washington, Oregon, Hawaii, and Commifornia
Hey don’t pick on OREGON, we are 97% pro-GUN!!!!
On what planet is the Oregon you live in. The last election voters passed, although narrowly, a ballot measure that severely limits the ability to own commonly used magazines and imposed restrictions on the ability to buy and use firearms. The state legislature is also currently trying to pass several antigun measures that are more severe. Democrats have a supermajority in both houses and the only reason they have not passed is that Republicans have not come on the Senate floor and thus denied a quorum. If Oregon was 97% pro-gun none of these things would be happening.
I actually live in Oregon. Do you?
Too bad land doesn’t vote, looking at you Greater Idaho 😉
add PA….
I’m left to wonder why M2F transposeurs wish to be at the top of the testosterone food chain.
I’m learning to really embrace their movement. Used to be you’d have to round up the mentally divergent for sterilization. Now they eagerly line up for it. Sort of how Sanger convinced the poor and racial minorities that it’s empowering to destroy their offspring.
These Dems are really into something. Stop with all the hard work of rounding people and forcing them. Rather convince them it’s a good idea to do the thing you’ve always done to them to themselves. Embrace the agency of your own destruction!
Been going on since the 60’s. As each decade progressed the influence of what is now called Liberalism gained a stronger foothold in the public education system. Since it leaders, some of which are gone. have been playing the ‘long game’ in the pursuit of their goals of a Transformed Society. Fortunately, I truly believe that the very thing they allowed to take control of their Movement. Has began to tear it down itself. What might you ask is that. Progressiveism. The one turning more Democrats away from the Party they once supported. A Party they no longer recognize. They have come to realize, everything they thought they understood and believed. No longer exists within the Democrat party. Ironically many are coming to the Republican party. Something their parents could never have imagined, as well as themselves. Yet it is happening, slowly. Just as the Courts are changing, slowly. Yet changing with the understanding of exactly what the Constitution meant. Just keep in mind. That ‘We the People’ must never loose sight of what Freedom and Liberty means, as well the cost that oft need paid. To insure it for Our children and their children’s children. Keep your Powder Dry.
Commie infiltration going through its natural cycle of growth to unstainable madness to collapse. Difference is they were not able to get the guns before the crazy (to destabilize the society) happened before they tried to take control from the chaos and the actors for the crazy element are not quite suicidal enough to try too much in the current environment. So I guess we get to see what happens when those seeking takeover are forced to stew in their own impotent madness.
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오 물론 덴마크어로 게시할 수는 없지만 Zimmerman은 포르노 제작자가 게시하도록 허용합니다.
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I’d really like to see some hard data on what major political party has the lower birth rate.
Like you said, they will simply breed themselves out of existence, considering how loudly they harp about overpopulation.
I’m also loving how they are telling themselves to not visit or move to the red states as a form of ‘punishment’.
*Please* stay away! You don’t want to live next to the mouth-breathing, sister-fornicating hicks… 🙂
Demtards has forced mass infanticide on their (formerly) favored demographic. Estimated that 20 million black babies have been aborted since Roe v. Wade. NOW they are in the process of importing tens of millions of worldwide POS as replacements.
Average # kids in my circle is 3 (conservatives). The progs are losing.
The democrat party is a death-cult.
When they’re not aborting their own children, they’re euthanizing their grandparents and sterilizing confused ‘trans’ kids.
They hate humanity and seek to destroy it everywhere they can.
nbc talking about firearms is like a drunk farting gasbag talking about fine dining.
Chrissie Christie?
NBC is sunk to new lows. IT’S article on the Origins of the AR is fiction.
Neat seeing how we have the highest percentage of AR ownership by percentage of gun owners until you hit North Dakota though.
SAFE, What about “North Dakota”?
Highest percentage of AR ownership amongst gun owners according to the info. Assume that the info may not be entirely complete for the standard reasons but still neat to see. Massachusetts was another surprisingly high percentage.
BUT, there’s only like 27 people living in ND (don’t get all wadded up it’s a joke) Only state of the 50 that I’ve never set foot in, been to Sturgis SD 20 times, been within 10 miles of the ND state line but for one reason or another never crossed over… Next trip to Sturgis scheduled for next year I will make it a point…
Lol you are not wrong max they compete with Delaware and Vermont for population but it is interesting to see how data accumulation plays out in who tends to own what in various proportions laws be damned.
MADDMAXX, I think your figure is a bit off. it Seems the population of North Dakota in 2021 was774,948.
Want to try again?
Of course, YOU missed the part of my post that says “DON’T GET ALL WADDED UP IT’S A FUCKING JOKE” If you are a prime example of the cops in this country then maybe DEFUNDING is in order… So, tell me Walter, exactly what part of IT’S A FUCKING JOKE did YOU not understand, perhaps I can get my 12 year old niece (or possum) to EXPLAIN it to you…
MADDMAXX, Seems you are in very desperate need of mental exam. Seems you are the wadded one right now.
As to my being a police officer, I KNOW I am more qualified to be a cop than you ever could be on your best day.
I suggest you leave your 12 yr old niece and possum alone. Are these example of your perversions?
Walter, you ARE a Bonafide moron… I can see why you would have chosen to be a cop because ANY job that requires a semblance of intellect would be far and above you… I simply made a fucking joke and THEN I pointed out that it was a fucking joke lest some dumb ass like you take it upon themselves to point out that yes indeed there ACTUALLY are more than 27 fucking people in North Dakota (a fact that I am very AWARE of)… YOU are a walking talking example of everything that is wrong with those who choose to become cops… I know this will blow straight the fuck over your head and you will attempt to continue your stupid argument about a fucking JOKE (which somehow seems to evade ONLY you) but I’m not going to crawl down into your delusional shithole, so if you want to continue to make yourself look like an idiot have at it, I’m done… IT WAS A FUCKING JOKE moron… Maybe you should lay off whatever you’re drinking and allow you cognitive ability (if you have any) to recover../
“The civilian version has always been semi-automatic. Thus, it was never designed for battle. It was designed for the civilian marketplace.”
I would really like someone here to explain why it is that NO ONE seems to think that civilians just might end up in battle? Particularly after the Rittenhouse event. I read this and it’s rather confusing. It’s semi-automatic thus it’s never designed for battle? People do battle with it all the time.
This is like thinking that Iraq is the battlefield but Chicago isn’t.
Perhaps there are some that do not understand that we ARE at war. This ABSOLUTELY is a weapon used in this war. If we don’t wake up to this and soon, we will lose this country.
the ictionaries of the time of our founding define the word “arms” like this: Weapons of military usefulness that can be deployed by a single soldier acting alone”.
Sort of lets out a naval corsair with deck cannon, but not the cannon themselves.
But CERTAINLY includes any long or handgun, grenade launcher,field cannon, mortar…… a helicopter’s side gun but not the chopper itself whilst using the gun. Takes at least two to dance that jig.
So yes, a full auto BMG Fifty belt fed tripod mount falls smack dab in the frame of “arms”. I want one….
So yes, a full auto BMG Fifty belt fed tripod mount falls smack dab in the frame of “arms”.
Can you get a suppressor for that?
Yu can. but the operant question is” MAY you get and use one?
If I want one my permission is all I need, that and the necessary parts and pieces to build one… It’s amazing what one can do in the privacy of a modestly equipped shop and the “science” of suppressors is not a REAL closely guarded secret…
“Can you get a suppressor for that?”
Yes indeed, you can! And lots of data on reloading to subsonic velocities.
My memory is a bit fuzzy, I seem to recall prices of around 2,000 USD, likely because of the pressures they develop…
Cannon including breach loading field guns are legal. The explosive shells are restricted. Solids are OK.
Would love to have an M2A1.
Funny thing is the helicopter, Tank, or nearly any other military vehicle is legal to own. But the weapons are not for the most part. Think how much damage a Sherman Tank or even an armored truck could do on a busy freeway. Who needs the guns?
What the anti gun folks don’t consider is the cost and weight of ammunition to feed these weapons. $5.00 every time the .50cal Browning barks. And how may are going to have a 2&1/2 ton truck to haul ammo and spare barrels around? It ain’t like the movies where the hero or villain runs around ripping off huge amounts of ammo without swapping overheated barrels or having a squad of ammo bearers following along.
Overanus
Overanus,
Kiss my anus. Kiss Uranus.
that thing will take you, some of your buddies and a pick-up truck to transport around…..portability is not its strong suit…
James Garner film:…”Tank”…..yes it is possible to own one….and the cops have already had a run-in with a runaway tank….
Here’s an interesting quote from the article above:
“Poynter understands that today’s civilian semi-automatic AR has never been a military rifle. Eugene Stoner’s original AR-15 prototype, which later became the M16, was a select-fire weapon.”
Hey, wait a minute, what’s that last sentence:
“Eugene Stoner’s original AR-15 prototype, which later became the M16, was a select-fire weapon.”
WTF? Eugene Stoner’s original AR15 prototype was a select fire weapon?
Yes, his original prototype was indeed a select fire weapon because he designed it as a military weapon, and marketed it to the militaries of the world.
He did not design his original prototype as a select fire weapon intended for the civilian market, that’s just asinine.
There’s no evidence to show he ever designed a single civilian weapon, and the word from his actual family members is that he designed the select fire AR15 as a response to the AK47.
But whatever, believe what you will, it’s immaterial and won’t affect the outcome.
Doesn’t matter. 2a does not say no FA. No permits, no background checks, etc.
“…the word from his actual family members is that he designed the select fire AR15 …”
Liar49er, which family members? The ones that MSNBC supposedly interviewed but wouldn’t provide their identities? The staple of the dishonest journalismist — the unnamed, anonymous source?
“But whatever, believe what you will …”
The rest of us aren’t as gullible as you are, Liar.
MINOR Miner49er, Just because you saw it is print, doesn’t make it true.
See this: https://www.nrablog.com/articles/2017/4/a-brief-history-of-the-ar10-the-ar15s-big-brother/#:~:text=The%20AR%2D10%20would%20never,Continental%20Army%20Command%20rifle%20program.
The AR-15 was originally designed for the military, but was REJECTED until An Air Force general adopted it for his Security people.
The current civilianized version is NOT capable of automatic fire. Automatic fire would make it a “military weapon.”
“The AR-15 was originally designed for the military,“
Bingo! Absolutely correct!
The AR 15 was indeed “originally designed for the military”, thank you so much for posting yet another source to support my position.
The original AR15 was designed as a select fire weapon, which would’ve never been considered for introduction to the civilian market in the 1950s and ‘60s.
miner. I don’t know what planet you lived on but all sorts of select fire weapons were available in the US. Legally and for sale.
MINOR Miner49er, I have a red hot news flash for you. the AR-15 of the VietNam era, and the AR-15 of today. are TWO VERY DIFFERENT firearms. The VietNam era AR had a select fire lever to allow the AR to fire in either full auto (that’s continuous fire) and semi-auto fire (that’s one shot for each depression of the trigger.). The current military rifle (the M-1) also have a select fire lever, but it is either a three round burst or a semi-auto fire. You see, the military “head shed” found that they were expending too many rounds per kill and learned (the hard way) that marksmanship is more important than rate of fire.
Today’s AR-15 is a CIVILIANized rifle which can ONLY be fired in semi-automatic mode. Do I need to repeat the definition of what semi-automatic is? Now, the ARMALITE Co., did in fact design a CIVILIAN version which was ONLY semi-auto. So while you are trying to justify your take that the AR-15 is a “military rifle” or an “assault rifle”. I suggest you try reading more on the subject.
But I doubt you will. And again, (sigh) the term “assault rifle” is a made up (by the media) term which virtually covers any and all semi-auto rifles.
AGAIN as I have told you before, a shooter with a modicum or practice can fire a bolt action rifle almost as fast as a shooter with a semi-auto rifle. But that’s another fact you anti-gun radicals choose to ignore.
But, Liar49er, didn’t you say
“…it’s immaterial and won’t affect the outcome.”
Why yes — yes, you did. So why the obsession — are you trying to make a point?
The AR-15 was always intended for sale to civilians. If they could get a government contract that would be good too. Because that is what the gun industry has always done. They will sell to the military. And they will sell to civilians too. Getting a government contract has always been good for business.
And historically the gun industry has never made a distinction between between government sales and civilian sales. Before all the government regulations and laws the gun industry sold machine guns to civilians. And they were quite comfortable doing it.
btw
In the past the government has purchased Red Ryder BB guns, as a low-cost way in order to train soldiers.
From 2021
…”Colt sent a pilot model rifle (serial no. GX4968) to the BATF for civilian sale approval on Oct. 23, 1963. It was approved on Dec. 10, 1963″…
…“The M16 wasn’t issued to infantry units until 1965 (as the XM16E1), wasn’t standardized as the M16A1 until 1967, and didn’t officially replace the M14 until 1969.”…
“Original ATF AR-15 Classification Refutes Claim that Rifle ‘Not Meant’ for Civilians”
https://www.ammoland.com/2021/12/original-atf-ar-15-classification-refutes-claim-that-rifle-not-meant-for-civilians/#axzz7VSS0bcad
and didn’t officially replace the M14 until 1969.”…
Carried my M14 til 1972, never carried an M16 in combat…
News flash.
The Firearms industry has never ever made a distinction between selling to the government and selling to civilians. They have always sold to both of them at the same time. Selling the same guns, the same equipment to both.
I’ve got a closet full of military grade ammo AND a Marine officers S&W stainless .357 magnum complete with red ramp sights…
Chris T,
To the extent they were allowed to, yes. The part I get a giggle out of is that the rationale for (in the Miller case) the government regulating “sawed-off shotguns” was that they WEREN’T military weapons (read the decision, it’s plain as day). And now their argument is that we SHOULDN’T have “military-style weapons’ – so I should get rid of my deer rifle, which is a “sporterized” 6.5 Swedish Mauser (and an excellent rifle!!), because it ACTUALLY WAS used by the Swedish military in WW II, right? But no one is trying to ban my Swedish Mauser (yeah, good luck with that, @$$holes) . . . but they want to ban my AR-15s, even though NONE of them were EVER “issue weapons” for any significant military anywhere. Because they’re “military-style” (what does that even mean?) “assault weapons” (that’s a made-up term, with no actual meaning). They are NOT “assault rifles” (first of all, they’re carbines, you ignoranus, and second, none of them are capable of “select fire”).
People are entitled to have their own opinions; and I am entitled to treat them with they respect they deserve.
to MADDMAXX
The only difference between the military grade Mossberg 590A1, and the Mossberg 590 that I own. Is that the trigger guard on the 590 is a hard plastic material. Same for the safety switch. My 590 still has the bayonet lug and the Heat shield. It has the same heavy barrel that the military shotgun has.
It’s just that the 590 cost a little less than the 590A1.
to LampOfDiogenes
I did neglect to add the word “historical” to my comment. Because historically the Firearms industry never made a distinction between government and civilian sales. The government never bought Winchester’s for soldiers. Soldiers bought their own Winchester’s if they ever had them. Or there might have been a military officer with connections, that was able to purchase Winchester’s. But only for the soldiers in his command.
The firearms company making Thompson submachine guns sold them to civilians first. Before they sold them to the military. Because the military turned down the contract when WW1 ended.
“To the extent they were allowed to, yes.”
Prior to the 1920s it was a free-for-all. You could buy whatever you wanted. Machine guns, cannons and so on. The gangster era and the “Roaring Twenties” ruined everything.
yeah the weapon was designed to be sold to the military…the Air Force being the first customer….it was all about military contracts initially…only later, in an effort to capture additional sales was the “Sporter” introduced…..
fyi
“Original ATF AR-15 Classification Refutes Claim that Rifle ‘Not Meant’ for Civilians”
https://www.ammoland.com/2021/12/original-atf-ar-15-classification-refutes-claim-that-rifle-not-meant-for-civilians/#axzz7VSS0bcad
remember this gun…and its accompanying AR-10…were designed in the 50’s…civilian sales did not begin until military contracts were secured in the early sixties…and it was a slow seller at first….negative press about its performance in combat being a factor……
when was the last time
that nbc was right
or told the truth about anything
definitely pre 2015
That makes victims more likely to have more serious injuries and more blood loss and more likely to die than with guns that fire with lower velocities
Isn’t that kind of the whole purpose of shooting someone in the first place? If I just wanted to hurt them or piss them off, I’d just throw a fukin rock at them…
“In a story published last year, Poynter tracked the origins on the AR-15 and found it was ‘first developed in the 1950s for civilian use.”
just went over this point here > https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/what-does-ar-stand-for-in-ar-15/#comment-6585282
and a little further down in those comments replying to Miner49er’s usual desperate BS on the AR-15 trying to keep the left wing lie alive.
I see the AR15 as something that ABSOLUTELY WAS designed for battle. Civilian battle. Even if the foe is of the four legged variety. I see no reason to think of it any other way. It’s history is for sure and I wont argue any of that. But who bought the patent at what point in time had no bearing on what Kyle Rittenhouse needed it for or countless others as they get cronicled on TTAG. The fact that the semi-auto version was meant for civilians while the military was given full-auto does not change the nature of battle. How many soldiers used their semiauto M9’s? Sure Biden is a bumbling senile and uses the term “weapon of war” just to strike fear in everyone. But the truth is that they are ALL weapons of war. To include blow guns with poison darts and diseased prostitutes.
The AR15 is NOT an assault rifle! It is however a weapon being used in war.
The AR10 came first and was for military use then remade for 223 cartridge as AR15 for the military, not only civilian at first.
All this minutia may be interesting to gun historians but makes no difference anyway when it come to crime. Piddling little gun control efforts will do little or nothing short of a nationwide ban. And then the benefits of guns for self defense will be lost- baby with the bathwater sort of thing. Boy am I sick of irresponsible and criminal people using guns.
If there were simple solution,it would have been solved by now.
“In 1957, in an effort to increase profits from the ArmaLite venture, Fairchild decided to compete in the U.S. Army’s CONARC requirement for a new six-pound, high-velocity, .22-caliber selective-fire rifle accurate to 500 yards. In response, ArmaLite engineers Eugene Stoner, Jim Sullivan, and Bob Fremont used the basic AR-10 design to produce the ArmaLite AR-15 in .223 Remington, which was completed as a firing prototype in 1958. Fairchild-ArmaLite continued its efforts to sell both the AR-10 and AR-15 to various military forces around the world.”
Pikula, Major Sam (1998). The ArmaLite AR-10 Rifle: The Saga of the First Modern Combat Rifle
That is exactly my point.
there IS a simple solution: MANDATE execution for anyone perpetrating an attack on people in any public place where one could expect to be safe from death by gunfire or similar means. NEVER mention their name in public or the press. No pictures scattered on the nightly news. Except for the video feed of the actual execution by firing squad, no hood, face the line, hands bound in front. And NEVER mention his name in the press.
Thus is COMMANDED by God in His word: whosoever by his hand takes the life of an innocent by the hand of man SHALL his blood be shed. The wording here makes room for accidental death not mandating execution. Only willful murder, and ALWAYS the commanded penalty.
By the end of the third or fourth such execution broadcast on nationwide live TeeVee such killings will be all but lost in history. Does not matter the age, if the twelve year old punks steal Dad’s handgun and go play shootemup back in the ‘hood, same penalty. The Hebrew people consudered a male “a man” by the time he is twelve. He IS responsible for his actions and their consequences. Including his own death by firing squad/
Mass shooters are committing murder suicide and could care less about death penalties etc.
All the press and social media fame on the other hand—
Bob, here is a “history of the AR-10”.
https://www.nrablog.com/articles/2017/4/a-brief-history-of-the-ar10-the-ar15s-big-brother/#:~:text=The%20AR%2D10%20would%20never,Continental%20Army%20Command%20rifle%20program.
I wonder what they would think if they saw a gel test of a Lehigh solid copper handgun round. The Critical Duty round, as I recall from a number of years ago, went through 16″ of gel like it wasn’t even there, leaving a huge temporary cavity and a large permanent cavity in its wake.
One thing I have never seen–I am sure it is out there but I haven’t seen it–is a .68 caliber musket ball gel test. Or even a .58 cal Minie Ball. Very nasty nasty wounds.
Re Minie gel test, yeah there are several up on YouTube. I didn’t recognize any of the channels that did the tests so no idea how trustworthy they are, but I’m sure they’re at least entertaining.
Kevlar panel tests with the lighter(faster) defender rounds are fun as well.
I seem to remember one of the History Channel shows on firearms, don’t remember which one, either top marksman or 1 of the R. Lee Ermey programs had the gel test and showed both the 69Musket Ball and the Minnie Ball on slow motion. Again, not sure which program but somewhere around 10 to 15 years ago.
the AR-15 originated as a civilian rifle, period. it wasn’t until after the AR-15 was designed as a civilian rifle that the military came a calling. Stoner converted the AR-15 civilian design for the military need and created a military prototype of his conversion and its that conversion prototype that eventually made it through a Colt design process and later became the M-16.
So what is there about the AR15 that I shouldn’t see it as designed for me to do battle with someone trying to kill me (self defense)?
no one ever said you should not see it as being a tool for self defense. Why do you keep thinking that?
You seem almost offended that it wasn’t originally created to be as the left wing claims.
Self defense IS battle.
no one said self-defense is not ‘battle’.
A base ball bat wasn’t designed for battle, but it can be used in some situations for self defense.
the problem arises with the left wing being able to dictate what history should be. They claim the AR-15 was created as a military rifle – well, no it wasn’t, it was created as a civilian rifle first and a derivation of that civilian rifle design was manifested in a ‘prototype’ conversion for the military.
The confusion arises in that from the civilian firearm a conversion prototype for a military firearm was created and it too had the AR-15 designation attached to it simply because that was the design sequence scheme Armalite used.
Armalite design sequence scheme at the time dictated that a derivation of an existing design carried the same sequence number because it was in the same development cycle. If the design made it to market it would be bumped up a number and variations on it would carry a letter after the number, for example, AR-16, AR-16A, etc… The AR-15 was a civilian firearm design first, had that design made it to market it would have been designated the AR-16. Then when the military came looking a conversion prototype (design derivation) of the civilian AR-15 was created so the AR-15 designation went with it (because it was a derivation and not a variation) and the rest is history.
Context detail matters. Its frequently left out in these broad strokes that historians and MSM and others use to ‘paint’ their narratives with. The anti-gun likes to claim the AR-15 was created as a military rifle – well, no it wasn’t and was created as a civilian rifle. What became a military rifle was created by Colt through a redesign process based upon an Armalite patent for a derivation ‘conversion prototype’ of the AR-15 civilian rifle and that derivation ‘conversion prototype’ simply carried the AR-15 designation because that’s how the Armalite sequencing scheme worked at the time and not because it was a new rifle created just for the military.
The baseball bat is the original instrument of battle. It’s the refinement of the clubs and wooden sticks of cavemen.
You could also say that for nerf guns. Firing/launching a projectile was envisioned as a means of ‘longer range’ battle but it doesn’t mean a nerf gun was created for battle.
A baseball bat was created for playing the game of baseball, because it could be used for self-defense doesn’t mean it was created for that purpose.
The point is, almost everything hand held is some sort of derivation of something else. For example, a ‘smart’ cell phone today is an evolutionary derivation of the ‘first phone’ invention by Bell to communicate by voice over long distances with others but it doesn’t mean a ‘smart’ cell phone was created for viewing porn on the internet.
If you want to say your civilian AR-15 was created for battle because self defense is battle that’s fine, but it doesn’t mean it was created for ‘battle’.
Usage of something in a context of its use does not mean it was created for that use, it just means it is used in that context.
There is a difference between ‘purpose built’ and usage.
The AR-15 was originally designed as a civilian rifle for, you know, civilian rifle stuff in a general overall sense (hunting, sporting, and yes maybe even self/home defense etc…), the derivation conversion of that civilian rifle design for a military rifle created a ‘purpose built’ rifle.
“civilian rifle stuff”?
I agree completely that it was designed and built for civilian use. That does not mean it wasn’t created for self defense. It is great in that role. Perhaps we should ask Stoner why he created it. But then, why does anyone create anything? The most common answer would be ‘out of need’.
Nerf guns are great at introduction. Just like throwing rocks or skipping them across ponds.
It just so happens that I have asked Stoner about this.
A chance meeting at SHOT Show 1990, that just happens to have been the first SHOT show I ever attended. Stoner and C. Reed Knight at Knights Armament designed a prototype lightweight compact handgun. Colt got their hands on it, and started changing things with it and proceeded to transform it into the Colt All American Model 2000 pistol and introduced the pistol at SHOT Show 1990. Stoner was at the show to promote the gun, and I had a chance to talk to him.
Briefly and basically, he told me this:
1. That the AR-15 existed as a semi-auto civilian rifle design from work done by Jim Sullivan who took the AR-10 and scaled it down some and did some re-design. The idea was to capture the civilian market growing interest in military styling (cosmetics) rifles and Armalite wanted to market a military styling semi-auto civilian hunting rifle.
2. That his primary interest was in military rifles and not civilian rifles so when the military came around he took that existing AR-15 civilian rifle design and converted it for a military rifle and created a derivation ‘prototype’ and got Armalite to abandon their plans for right then of marketing the civilian AR-15 and focus on the military market. So Armalite did that, tried marketing to the military market for his conversion of the civilian rifle into a military rifle, and they eventually failed at it, basically, when the U.S. military didn’t respond as they had expected.
(note: Unknown to him at the time this would be a big part of the financial downfall of Armalite at the time that eventually forced them to sell their patents to Colt which was also an insistence by Stoner. The reason Stoner was so interested in selling the patent of his conversion ‘prototype’ of the AR-15 civilian rifle to Colt was because they would provide the means to redesign it into a military weapon acceptable to the U.S. military and he would get a ‘second chance’ to see his conversion get to the military. But Armalite had already failed in the military market and didn’t have the financial means to continue along that line plus Colt would hire him as a ‘consultant’ so he could be part of their push to market the rifle to the military and be there to consult for the redesign Colt made to create the military firearm that eventually became the M-16.).
Not what historians say.
historians don’t say a lot of things. It was created as a civilian firearm, period.
The confusion arises in that from the civilian firearm a conversion prototype for a military firearm was created and it too had the AR-15 designation attached to it simply because that was the design sequence scheme Armalite used.
Armalite design sequence scheme at the time dictated that a derivation of an existing design carried the same sequence number because it was in the same development cycle. If the design made it to market it would be bumped up a number and variations on it would carry a letter after the number, for example, AR-16, AR-16A, etc… The AR-15 was a civilian firearm design first, had that design made it to market it would have been designated the AR-16. Then when the military came looking a conversion prototype (design derivation) was created so the AR-15 designation went with it and the rest is history.
The AR15 was created as a civilian firearm. That is something that more people need to understand for sure. But it’s original intended purpose is one thing, the way it’s used is another. I doubt Stoner considered using these things against wild hogs.
Notice the new article in TTAG today.
AR patterns were designed in hopes of selling to military.
Bob — pro tip: since you’re going to post under several different names, at least erase the profile photo that shows up on each post.
There are some VERY fast and accurate handgun rounds.. the FN 5.7, the old .32 H&R Mag, the .327 Federal.
Until perhaps the ast twenty years or so nearly all game taen in orth Maerica has been taken with MILITARY rounds fired from rifles either de-militarised by the owner or a gunsmith, or plainly derived from military rifles. We have the 1903 Springfield bolt gun, the 6.5 Swede (6.5 x 55), the .308 Remingtin/ 6.5 x 51 NTO, the old .303 British (BSA, Enfield, Ishapore), the 6.5 Italian Carcano (alledgedly used to murder JFK from three directions at once), the 7.5 Swiss (Schmidt-Rubin), and even the Japanese 7.2 Arisaka, though I’ve not seen much in way of hunting rounds for these, but I have in all the ones mentioned above), oh and can’t forget the powerful 8mm Mauser.
So the dweebs overlook this hundred plus year history and camp ion the “military origins” of the .223/5.56 and the AR pattern rifle, completely failing to even casually and briefly mention that the rounds that rifle fires are NOT legal for the taking of deer in all but a very few states.
Yeah, their agenda and MO are SO well hidden…. NOTTTTT!!!
What we have been seeing as surprisingly wild is the 8mm Mauser with it’s WW2 era AP ammo…………the damn thing is beating some lv 4 plates in ways that tungsten cored 5.56 and even 7.62 doesn’t.
You can take the civilian use of military arms back much further than a century. I have a Sharps rifle with Federal proof marks and regimental markings from the Civil War. Since it survives to this day and was likely DE mobbed when the soldier who carried it was discharged, it’s a fair bet it was used for hunting bear or buffalo or elk. The Garand my father purchased as surplus was absolutely used for hunting. As was the 30-40 Kraig-Jorgenson my grandfather owned.
Police say Beau Wilson, 18, roamed up and down a Farmington, NM street — a busy thoroughfare lined with churches and homes abutting a quiet middle class neighborhood — shooting indiscriminately into houses and cars. They said he used three different weapons, including an “AR-style rifle.”
Three women, all over the age of 70, were killed and six others, including two police officers, were injured.
As usual, all of the articles immediately note that he used an AR-15, and they wonder why this keeps happening. They aren’t even identifying the shooter yet, but the most important part of the story is that an AR-15 was used. We would know more about the shooter if they could somehow claim he was a white supremacist. If journalists wanted to withhold some information that might actually make a difference, then they should leave out what particular firearm was used. They can’t help themselves. They have to scream AR-15 because they think that helps their dream of banning semi-auto rifles.
“It Happened Again”
Correct — a bad guy with a gun was stopped by a good guy with a gun —
According to Farmington police, a shooter was confronted and killed on the scene.
“They said he used three different weapons…”
What were the other two?
According to the dude recording it, he had a “Glock with an extended clip” (his words). He said the shooter was shooting at him and the cops with the handgun. He didn’t mention a rifle, and I didn’t see one, but the video was bad.
This happened in front of a church, but maybe that was a coincidence.
https://twitter.com/rawsalerts/status/1658216789774311447
ATF is responding to a report of a mass shooting in Farmington, NM. Please contact @FPDNM
with any inquiries.
https://twitter.com/ATFPhoenix/status/1658182991267631104?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Serious question: does the ATF show up to every mass shooting in Chicago?
Also, in the video of the suspect being shot by police, he has a handgun, not a rifle.
3 dead, by reports.
So, *technically*, not an official ‘mass shooting’…
Tell that to the ATF.
NO they don’t show up in Chiraq
1.) dem just black folk
2.) might get shot
3.) no donuts
The teen, who was not named, told the newspaper: “I knew he was going to do something bad, but I didn’t think it was going to be something like that,” adding that Wilson was “different.”
He told the newspaper that at a Halloween sleepover Wilson had started talking to people who weren’t there.
“I was really confused,” the teenager told the newspaper. “I was, like, ‘Are you OK?’ He was, like, ‘Yeah.’ He said, ‘These voices just keep getting to me.’” He described Wilson as having a hard time meeting new people and recently selling his Xbox.
I’d like to know if he used any prescription and/or recreational drugs. That’s more important to know than what gun was used.
Red Flag should have been used.
Goes to show why they tend to be worthless.
Yes, and? You mean to say if he had some other kind of rifle it would have never happened? Deal the the criminal and then worry about other things?
“They aren’t even identifying the shooter yet“
Did you even read the post you are replying to, the very first sentence is:
“Police say Beau Wilson, 18, roamed up and down a Farmington, NM street“
Clearly, more evidence showing that 18-year-olds should be allowed to buy whatever firearms they wish because they are just so responsible with lethal weapons.
18-year-olds should be allowed to buy whatever firearms they wish because they are just so responsible with lethal weapons.
Funny story: I was considered responsible enough (AT 18) to enlist in the USMC and travel several thousand miles around the planet where, after a minimum of training, I was expected to not only lead an entire Company through the jungles of South Vietnam (walking point) in the middle of night and provide protection for myself AND my fellow Marines but also be prepared to kill another human being either by remote means (air strikes, artillery, naval gun fire or rifle/handgun) OR on more than one occasion with a Ka-Bar and an entrenching tool… Fun times for a fucking kid right out of high school… LOTS of responsibilities… Guess not ALL 18 year olds are made equal, how do you discern the difference? I saw a bunch of 18/19 year olds do some pretty amazing shit, saw a few die as well…
“Clearly, more evidence showing that 18-year-olds should be allowed to buy whatever firearms they wish because they are just so responsible with lethal weapons.”
Liar49er, it’s already illegal in New Mexico for a person under 19 to possess a handgun — and this kid used (at least) one. What makes you think that any law would have prevented him from committing murder?
Dear Smartass49er, I was looking at multiple articles from mainstream sources. None of them were identifying the shooter at that time. It’s completely beside the point I was making that one article here or there identified him. You complain about the most inconsequential things.
As usual, the media fixates on the hardware and forgets the 1 thing every violent crime has in common. The human hand and human mind controlling the weapon. Knife, rock, gun, club, car. Doesn’t matter the implement used if any.
I live outside Dallas and for the hell of it read the DPD blog to see what kind of crime is going on there. I avoid the city as much as I can, but because I live here, I want to know what’s going on.
And what is going on is murder after murder after murder after murder. The homicides inside the city limits of Dallas is staggering. Virtually all of them are one-offs, in bad parts of town, and they will show up in the news, but are buried.
Meanwhile, the way something like the Allen killings are treated makes me sick because the media laps this shit up. I know this because I used to be a reporter and I’ve been inside newsrooms when really bad things happen and these jerks get giddy about it. I have seen this with my own eyes, literal jumping up and down, it is sick. They get excited about pushing The Cause. They play it up massively, they kick their advocacy into 6th gear. All the other homicides? Pfft. Who cares. These people aren’t important like safe, suburban Allen, and AR15s aren’t used. We need AR15s to really crank it up a notch.
Just the other day south of Fort Worth, a 12-year-old (yes, 12) killed a Sonic employee with an AR rifle. THAT got big headlines, of course, which still haven’t gone away, precisely because of the weapon used, which is mentioned in the headlines, the first paragraph and multiple times afterward.
The propaganda machine keeps rolling along.
Agreed
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I bought my first two ARs during the “assault weapons ban”, I was “forced” to take target barrels and excellent iron sights. Oh, poor me.
does anyone have a model from the 50’s that was semi-auto only?….I remember getting a chance to acquire an original AR-10…[peeling paint and all]…not sure if it was strictly a semi-auto…but it may have been….opted for an HK-91 instead simply for the aesthetics
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