Incendiary Image of the Day: Why Not Arm Teachers Edition Crime and Punishment by Robert Farago | Dec 18, 2012 | 51 comments facebook twitter linkedin email comments Chris says: December 18, 2012 at 18:04 If you don’t want to arm teachers you want children to die. Reply S.CROCK says: December 18, 2012 at 19:00 http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18/stop-school-shootings-by-letting-teachers-fire-back-say-texas-officials/ this school cares about their students. Reply Jason says: December 18, 2012 at 18:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercaz_HaRav_shooting Quick google search shows this wrong. Reply Conway Redding says: December 18, 2012 at 18:18 Well, since the shooter at Mercaz HaRav was neutralized by the Israeli Defense Forces, it’s not clear that the teachers at this yeshiva were themselves armed. In any case, this unfortunate incident simply points up the fact that, even in an environment as prepared for random violence as Israel is, those of a mind to kill the innocent can accomplish their aims. Reply RKflorida says: December 18, 2012 at 18:48 This is a private school, and a part time student (Yitzhak Dadon) at the school was the first to shoot the attacker. The teachers at this school were NOT armed as the picture shows the woman teacher with the elementary school class. Reply CA_Chris says: December 18, 2012 at 19:37 I have it on 2nd-hand account that Israeli schools require at least a minimum number of armed guards for field trips, so teachers carry rifles when with students off-campus. On-campus there are more armed guards, and so teachers do not carry. Reply Sanchanim says: December 18, 2012 at 18:59 Just to point out there is a difference between a Yeshiva, and a public elementary school. Think of a Yeshiva as a college for Rabbi’s. Now normally they teachers are not armed, however I served with a group of Yeshiva students in the IDF. Depending on the sect and what their stance is, many are in fact very pro gun and pro Israel, in the sense they are armed and willing to defend the country. So this isn’t really an apple to apple comparison per say. Here is some news coverage of the event: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3516039,00.html Reply Jason says: December 18, 2012 at 19:27 I wasn’t trying to make a point other than Israel had a school shooting in 2008. Whether they were armed or not is irrelevant. The pic says no school shootings since 1974, and there was a high profile one in 2008. Reply DanC says: December 18, 2012 at 22:13 There is a difference between a Yeshiva (seminary for rabbis) and a school. Reply DonS says: December 18, 2012 at 18:08 Israel might not be the best example, unless we add 2 years of compulsory military service to the requirements for a teaching credential. Not that this would necessarily be a bad thing. Reply Sanchanim says: December 18, 2012 at 19:01 3 years for males, and 2 for females. 😉 Yeshiva students server 4 total while going between school and army duty. Reply DonS says: December 18, 2012 at 19:29 I knew about the 3M/2F requirement. I was going for the minimum 🙂 Reply Foster says: December 18, 2012 at 18:12 If you’re serious about your child’s security. If guns are evil, then why does the POTUS have armed secret service at his daughters school? Reply tjlarson2k says: December 18, 2012 at 18:23 That’s a similar argument I posed to the anti-gun griper in my office that declared he didn’t believe in the adage “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” “Well,” I said, “If you think guns make people evil, then why do people call 911 when they’re in trouble? A police officer with a gun, is by your definition, evil. So why would you ever willingly seek their help for anything?” And this applies to the military too. Hitler would’ve never been stopped if not for good guys with guns. If tools make people evil, then trains and furnaces should’ve been declared one of the most evil inventions due to how they were used in the Holocaust…. Derp logic is derp. Reply CA_Chris says: December 18, 2012 at 19:41 Gun are democratic. Because evil people have had guns, to grabbers that means all guns and anyone who owns them are evil too. They don’t trust guns, gun owners, or other people who don’t share the same opinions. Reply Mark says: December 18, 2012 at 18:12 The only possible objection to arming school employees is that they’d have to figure out how that didn’t constitute taking personal responsibility instead of letting the government take care of them. Reply Spoons Make You Fat says: December 18, 2012 at 18:31 “The government”? They ARE the government. Reply RightYouAreKen says: December 18, 2012 at 18:33 Or… – how would the guns be paid for? – how would the training be paid for? – how would the (presumably) increased district insurance rates be paid for? – etc School districts are strapped for cash. There are also lots more schools in the US than in Israel. I’m not saying it’s not an idea to consider, but there is a lot to work through beyond your “government control” argument. Reply RKflorida says: December 18, 2012 at 18:51 Fire 2 members of the school board and you can easily pay for teacher training. Encourage concealed carry among the teachers and provide free training. Those that don’t want to carry, don’t have to, those that do may save the lives of children. Reply Robert M says: December 18, 2012 at 22:50 All the programs being talked about for Teachers is voluntary like the Air Line pilots. The one “Pilot” program in Texas gives the teachers a few extra bucks for agreeing to the program and the extra training but that isn’t a requirement. I am sure many teachers would take a class and do if without a few extra bucks although I am sure more would get with the program if they were getting paid a few extra bucks. Reply jwm says: December 18, 2012 at 18:13 i have a vague memory of an article from years gone by. The m1 carbines weren’t issued to teachers, they were issued to some licensed tour guides. I don’t remember enough details to make a firm statement on the matter. But I don’t believe that’s a teacher in the photo. Reply Sanchanim says: December 18, 2012 at 19:05 It could be a tour guide, however I do know that on field trips teachers / guides are always armed when with the children. Even older kids when out and about on a trip have at least one armed person. Point taken but armed guards at schools, and armed guards while on a field trips is the point. Taking responsibility for the security of the children is the theme I think RF is trying to get across. Reply Lance says: December 18, 2012 at 18:14 Amen common sense from our Israeli allies, Again. We have many surplus M-1 carbines make school teachers staff train with them in the summer. Reply ctay says: December 18, 2012 at 18:24 No offense against any female viewers of this site, but this country will never arm our (mostly female) school teachers. Too much emphasis on how one’s hair and clothes look, what’s the newest social networking app for their iPhone and what’s coming on BravoTV tonight. This country’s majority female culture simply won’t bend in the armed direction, which is odd considering the fiery nature of a woman’s instinct to protect children, but alas it’s the culture of leaving everything up to the government to take care of. Just wait for the “good guys” folks. Besides, the teacher’s unions would have a frenzy aligning themselves with the gun subculture, even for the better of the kids. Reply Randy Drescher says: December 18, 2012 at 18:34 I’m not so sure, the one lady jumped on the perp. Its gotta be easier to squeeze one off than charge into a sh.tstorm. I took my CC class with a 75 year old lady who wasn’t going to be a victim. She was going to get a 38 special revolver. I told her good choice, It will sure go bang if needed, Randy Reply Chewbacca Defense says: December 18, 2012 at 18:40 We don’t need to arm them, we simply need to empower them with the option to arm themselves. Simply remove gun free zones all together. There are already plenty of teachers with carry permits who would willingly arm themselves on school grounds, but they obey a sign that criminals and crazies do not. I think their ultimate fear is that the increased number of children in the area could result in a higher liklihood of a child being hurt if an accident happens. If that’s the fear I’m willing to compromise on making teachers keep them locked in a desk drawyer or something. Once it becomes normalized it will go away. We say give them an inch and they’ll take a mile, lets take our inch and over time we’ll get that mile. Issuing weapons ad training or posting armed guards would also be silly and very expensive. Empowering rights is free. That would be cherry picking public locations to have open carrying cops present. Then a maniac will simply attack somewhere else. Reply ctay says: December 18, 2012 at 18:51 Gun free school zones won’t go away, it provides that false sense of security. If anything, look for more gun free zones. If our government had there way, they would enforce gun free gun ranges. Nerf toys are allowed though, rejoice! Reply Sek says: December 18, 2012 at 18:26 I don’t care if she is a teacher or a tour guide. She appears to be there to protect the children; I have no way of knowing if that is true. My friends that have been to Israel tell me this is a common sight. I approve, completely. But why is that purse photoshopped? Reply Aharon says: December 18, 2012 at 18:35 What type of gun does she have slung over her backside? I’m actually optimistic that quite a few teachers and staff will begin to step forward once they start to calmly consider that with training and a gun they can reduce or stop an attacker. Reply jwm says: December 18, 2012 at 18:48 m1 carbine, Aharon. An old school American gun from ww2. In my youth you could mail order them straight to your house with no waiting period or background check and they had 15 and 30 round mags. I recall them being 65 bucks plus shipping. Reply Aharon says: December 18, 2012 at 19:03 Thanks JWM. I’ve never fired an M1 though I’m familiar with them from my readings in history. I believe the CMP Civilian Marksmanship Program used to sell WW2 ones until they ran out. I’ve read that there are a large number in Korea not being used that Hillary Clinton has blocked from being shipped back for sale to the American public. http://www.odcmp.com/ Reply jwm says: December 18, 2012 at 19:09 They’re actually quite fun to shoot and have very good accuaracy for a general issue weapon. Light and compact. A real urban self defense type of weapon. Especially for smaller statured people or people that have physical limitations that make harder kicking and heavier guns impracticle. Sanchanim says: December 18, 2012 at 19:19 Man inflation is a killer!!! My dad had one in the navy too… Aharon, I think you can still get them through the CMP, but it is a bit of a waiting list. Prices on them have gone up as well. They are a piece of history, and I would love to own one someday. Reply APBTFan says: December 18, 2012 at 21:42 Even better, Hornady has a Critical Defense load for the .30 Carbine. Reply guzzimike says: December 18, 2012 at 18:44 Christmas dinner with my family next week will be interesting. My sister teaches 1st/2nd grade and my brother is a high school teacher. In the past the topic of school security has come up & all I ever heard was “we have a really good lockdown plan where the kids go & hide”. I’m curious if the opinion of either one will have changed. The interesting thing is both my 11 & 17 year old nieces, who are very “girlie” and have no interest in firearms or learning to shoot, see zero issue with having stronger & more proactive security in the form of armed security and/or staff if it helps them make it to the end of every school day. As the 11 year old put it “if banks have guards, and the bank is insured, why can’t we?” Smart kid. Reply Sanchanim says: December 18, 2012 at 19:27 I am telling you the kids should run the country! Just kidding… sortta… That is the second time I have heard clear intelligent comments on this from a kid no less! The whole run and hide and throw things is a silly concept. The idea of getting rid of the most popular rifle in America today is a silly concept. I look at it this way, let’s say we use a magic wand and make all of these scary rifles disappear… Just sayin, so hang with me a minute… So now another sub human piece of garbage, makes some home made bombs, and uses pistols. What then? I mean I am asking because bad people will find a way, sure it might not be so easy, but honestly making some type of explosive, and using CA compliant pistols you can do a hell of a lot of damage. Then what? POTUS will say we can’t let this happen anymore? Again! Really? How do you propose to stop it? Regulate steal pipe sales, or gosh now you can only get one bottle of cleaner instead of three? Home checks for all chemicals that could potentially be used for some type of device? Reply Aharon says: December 18, 2012 at 23:17 “we have a really good lockdown plan where the kids go & hide” My dad used to say that he doesn’t need to keep in the trunk items such as jumper cables, a shovel, emergency blanket, ice and snow tractions mats etc during a Chicago winter since he has the AAA card and that was way before the era of cell phones. Sometimes admitting how the worst can happen is too difficult for some people. Reply Kirk says: December 18, 2012 at 18:48 Arming teachers was my position on Day One: http://guardamerican.com/index.php/blog/35-politics/342-sandy-hook-gun-control GuardAmerican’s position on the best legislative outcome is here: http://guardamerican.com/index.php/blog/47-safety/349-sandy-hook-mother-sought-conservatorship-but-didn-t-lock-up-her-guns I think agreement can be reached — if the libs don’t screw it up, like they’re planning on doing in hopeless California: http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalertlatest/2012/08/22/ Reply Sanchanim says: December 18, 2012 at 19:31 Oh yes folks the bullet button ban is coming back! We already can’t use normal magazines, but apparently that isn’t good enough. There is a whole slew of other legislation that will make it’s way into the system as well… It will get real ugly real fast here…. Reply TPR says: December 18, 2012 at 18:57 Front Sight in Nevada offered FREE training to the Airline Pilots Assn. after 911, and the same to teachers after Columbine. No reason teachers could not be trained and equipped with 9mm pistols that were easy to shoot and concealable. We are living in a different world today… Reply bpjester says: December 18, 2012 at 19:16 My gf is a middle school teacher. She is ready to carry her pistol in class, but that pesky federal law prevents her from doing so. Reply Ralph says: December 18, 2012 at 19:22 If she has a carry license, then the federal law isn’t stopping her, the state law is. The federal Gun Free School Zones Act does not apply to carry with a state license pursuant to a background check etc. Reply David says: December 18, 2012 at 19:28 A lot of smart people have posted comments in this thread! Thank you, all. The regular news media (with their, ‘only one possible solution approach’) was really starting to get me down. Two-hundred and fifty million + innocent Americans shouldn’t be, either, punished or made to feel guilty for the homicidal personal behaviors of a few madmen – and, THESE SERIAL SHOOTERS ARE MADMEN! Sane (moral) people don’t commit nefarious evil acts like what Cho, Sueng-Hui; and Adam Lanza have now done. Furthermore, government should be (1) for the sane, (2) of the sane, and (3) by the sane. No popular government of mentally healthy people should ever allow itself to be structured as a, ‘societal insane asylum’ governed by repressive rules and regulations; nor should any benevolent popular government be designed to treat all persons as madmen rather than as sane, ethical, and socially responsible citizens. Don’t let the likes of: Cho, Sueng-Hui; or Adam Lanza take our American freedoms – our very heritage, itself – away from all of the rest of us. Draconian new laws and firearm legislation will only compound the overall tragedy and effect of Adam Lanza’s sick homicidal behavior; and the hate-filled overall effect will, then, be extended from the original 26 unfortunates to well over 250 million people! This type of largely hysterical and thoroughly oppressive firearm legislation has NOT WORKED in Great Britain; and it’s not going to work here, either. Instead of a national society of armed and socially trustworthy freemen, we will all be forced to become a nation of vulnerable and readily available victims! Those of us who survive and remain need to put Adam Lanza’s badly demented social behavior into the proper perspective, compartmentalize it, STOP the national news media from giving these sorry events so much extensive and prolonged free advertising, and (perhaps) even reinstitute both the death penalty as well as public executions. Let’s face it: As a law-abiding society we’re not doing so well without the former safeguards of (1) the death penalty, and (2) sure and certain punishment. These appropriately harsh judicial behaviors and swift punishments worked for this nation’s founding fathers, as well as for multiple generations of our forbearers. They should work for today’s America, too. Reply Aharon says: December 18, 2012 at 19:30 MSNBC ‘For teachers, school security jumps to forefront after Newtown shootings’ “In the past four to five days, he says, he’s thought through everything on the safety spectrum — from “just hoping that it’s not us next time,” to arming the whole staff. “What is in between those two extremes that might make sense?” he muses.” http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/18/15999084-for-teachers-school-security-jumps-to-forefront-after-newtown-shootings?lite Reply David says: December 18, 2012 at 19:31 Sell all public schools to private institutions. Repeal all taxes that fund schools. Let parents home school or send children to private schools. If you choose to send your children to a private school, you can pick one that arms the teachers or has parents/relatives that provide security. In high schools you can teach the older/mature students to do the same. This will not only resolve the problem of free fire zones we currently have but will give us better education of our children and teachers and schools will have to earn their money by producing well taught students. No government solution to a govt. created problem and it will cost less. A lot less. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9PEqmpGK9k Reply AlphaGeek says: December 18, 2012 at 23:50 Would you kindly STFU with that already? You or your sock puppet have spammed every damn discussion I’ve read on TTAG recently. Reply RKflorida says: December 18, 2012 at 20:51 Here is an interesting story on a school district in Texas that has had teachers carrying since 2007. Now they are being brought into focus because of the recent shooting. http://www.therightscoop.com/awesome-texas-school-district-allows-teachers-to-carry-concealed-weapons/ Reply irock350 says: December 19, 2012 at 00:33 Why hadn’t TTAG ran an article on the Texas school district that allows its teachers to carry with a chl. I know i sent in a link …. Reply APBTFan says: December 19, 2012 at 01:48 http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/12/daniel-zimmerman/these-gun-free-school-zones-that-needs-to-be-repealed/ Reply irock350 says: December 19, 2012 at 02:10 You misunderstand, there is a school district that is already allowing teachers to carry, as in teachers can carry as of right now. Reply APBTFan says: December 19, 2012 at 03:31 My bad. Too many tabs open but I did read a similar article. Is this the one? http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18/stop-school-shootings-by-letting-teachers-fire-back-say-texas-officials/ Write a Comment Cancel replyYour email address will not be published. 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