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A TTAG reader writes:

“Thought you might be interested. Since I’m irritated Gov. Rick Snyder vetoed a bill that would allow me to carry a gun concealed in a school, I decided I would open carry to visit my kindergarten daughter for her book fair. My “high capacity” Taurus 845 with 12 rounds didn’t jump out of the holster. It didn’t even tug at the retention strap. I never lost my gun, the Sheriff’s deputy never drew her gun on me and I was never detained or held from going about my business.”

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  1. Taurus? Really? Were they out of hipoints?


    • FLASH: Guns will NEVER AGAIN be separated from politics. NEVER. Accept it and get used to it. You’re almost as bad as the banners, wishing guns away by clicking their heels together three times.

      • “Aaaahhh, you’re never allowed to just have fun with your hobby, you must constantly maintain vigilance! Even in your sleep! Don’t you know the cost of every round shot at the range is three uniquely written letters to your Senators and Representatives!”

        We gotta fight the fight, but not taking the time to enjoy why we’re fighting the fight means we’re doomed.

      • Feeds every factory ammo I put in it. Finicky with reloads (warranty? Nevermind I don’t use reloads)

      • My taurus feeds fine, but I would never carry ANY gun, regardless of pedigree, if I hadn’t tested its function with the selected ammo…

  2. For a while, I was thinking, “this is really pretty cool,” until I snapped back to reality: “this is perfectly normal, everyday behavior in a polite, armed society.”

    • Considering what he got left with what with the state being blown away by Granholm, its amazing the state is not bankrupt!

  3. Kudos to Lordcliff on his fortunately uneventful open carry, into a school no less. Makes you wonder how long before in another Michigan school someone freaks out, leading the legislature to rethink the concealed carry option. Carry On-ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ………

  4. Cop: “Obviously you and I know I can’t do anything to stop you. I hope you realize what this is going to do to all those kids.”

    Shaking my head.

      • My thoughts exactly.
        She was wearing a lot more than just a simple holster, and she’s insinuating his holstered pistol is going to give the kids screaming nightmares? Then afterwords, she acts as if they were just lucky the kids were too distracted to notice his gun, as she’s still sure they would have freaked if they saw it.

  5. What state is this? Utah?

    Wait a minute…FINGERPRINTING? Why do you have to be fingerprinted to go into a school?

    This is insane.

    “Our concern is for the kids.” Really?

    Good God! No wonder the majority of our children grow up stupid. Their “professional” role models are dimwitted morons.

    • … Why do you have to be fingerprinted to go into a school? …

      My brain convulsed when I saw that going on.

      • You know, not EVERYTHING is about mass-murderers. Some security measures are trying to stop regular ol’ abductors and child abusers.

    • Because a mass murderer will stop there and get fingerprinted. This way they’ll be sure to know who the mass murderer is. It’s for the kids.

  6. I guess I don’t understand – I thought the federal gun free zone trumped state law. With a ccl in WI I can be outside with a concealed firearm but not inside, that’s still a felony because of federal law.

    Did something change?

    • Can’t be on grounds or inside. You are exempt from the 1000 ft gun free zone requirement (State Law 948.605) with CWP.

      • Exactly, so how is he walking around in a school, open carrying, with a cop right next to him and not in jail?????

        • The original Federal gun free school zone act zone was struck down by the SCOTUS. It was replaced by a watered down version (quietly) which allows “anyone licensed by the state” to carry in a school.

          Since I have a CPL I am licensed “by the State”. However, the CPL laws prohibit concealed carry in a school. The same law also exempts me from the gun free zones for open carry. With a CPL I can carry openly within a school since I am licensed by the state AND I am exempt from the state law forbidding open carry in a school by an unlicensed person.

  7. Loved the last part of the video where you say your wife is still mad at you. Rewind to the part of your video where you say “the kids will be fine.” Your wife will be fine too. She’ll get over it, eventually. Congrats to you for knowing your rights and choosing to exercise them.

  8. I thought of doing this exactly. I may talk with the school and local police the same way you did and do the similar, drop off and pick up. Real pain in the ass disarming before going in and rearming once out. To be able to just walk in and out would be more convenient and safer, not just with less weapon manipulation but with someone armed who could make the difference if something bad happened.

    • With regard to convenience and weapon manipulation, I’ve been ebaying a bunch of old collectibles lately. They don’t all sell at once, naturally, so that has entailed several trips to the post office in the last week to ten days. Post offices are strictly off limits by federal law. Not just the buildings, but the “property,” which legally includes the parking lot. So even disarming in the parking lot to walk inside is against the law.

      My first trip, I parked next door, put the gun in the glove box, and went inside to handle my business.

      The second trip, I parked in the PO lot, disarmed there, and went inside to handle my business.

      After those two trips, and learning that since I was doing the ebay online postage thing I didn’t even have to stand in line, just walk in, set the boxes on the counter, and walk back out again… well, you guessed it: I just didn’t even bother. Parked, got my boxes, walked inside, set them down, walked out, drove away. Total evolution takes maybe 45 seconds.

      • until the day you drop a box, bend over to pick it up, someone screams “GUN!” and you’re facing federal charges.

        It’s stupid. I know it. And having no kids or other major responsibilities I might be tempted to take a fight to SCOTUS to put an end to the silliness. Might. I’m still pondering. But I hate paperwork. The 4473 is about my limit.

        • Well, luckily that hasn’t happened yet. But that’s a valid point. As time has gone on with EDC, I’ve found it’s a curious mix of “forgetting I have it on because I’m used to it” and simultaneously “very aware that it’s there.” For instance, toward your example, one of the first things I learned to do when carrying is when “getting low,” you squat, you don’t bend. I’ve done it so often now that it’s muscle memory, and I don’t even have to think about it. And yet I’m still aware enough that it’s there that I avoid sitting in the lounge at Chili’s and such. One is cognizant action, one is not.

  9. I do want to say that in MI, at least the parts of it that I live in (which happen to be the most liberal) most officers are extremely supportive of open carry, civilian firearms ownership, concealed carry, and 2A rights in general. I’ve been approached by many extremely friendly officers while open carrying, never asked for ID, never asked to stop, just had a friendly conversation struck up with me, normally about what I liked to carry and things. Never even been asked my name.

    Sometimes I read comments on here that make me wonder if you guys remember that 90% of LEO’s are on our side, particularly local/state LEOs. Wyandotte Police in particular have made statements to me that if the feds ever tried to ‘come take our guns’ they would be on our sides of the barricades, not theirs. I like OC, even though it has it’s tactical disadvantages. And if I were a LEO, I would probably have my eye on the civilian who was carrying a weapon openly. Doesn’t mean I’d stop him, or question him, but I might approach him and try to get a feel on the guy.

    Remember, coming off as a total dick on youtube videos where you’re openly carrying a rifle, or a pistol, specifically to illicit a response from law enforcement, does not do our cause any justice. What are you really carrying a weapon for? Self defense? Or are you just trying to show off? I recognize that sometimes citizens are harassed, have weapons confiscated, or even are arrested illegally. And that really, really sucks. But a lot of the time it’s not the guy who is cooperative and respectful, it’s the asshole 5.11’d out screaming at the top of his lungs about the second amendment.

    So let me ask you, if you’re carrying, and a guy shows up at the restaurant/gas station/public place you happen to be at in full MOLLE’s or wearing a plate carrier, openly carrying a weapon, and starts screaming about his religious freedoms, what would your reaction be? Cause I’m damn sure if a guy with a CPL shows up in a multicam BDU, with a slung rifle (legal in MI), and starts yelling about allah in arabic, you guys would freak out too.

    Let’s cut law enforcement some freaking slack and stop shoving our guns in everyone else’s face.

    • Michigan is a preemption State… State law is uniform throughout the state and local bodies are preempted.

    • I’ve been approached by many extremely friendly officers while open carrying, never asked for ID, never asked to stop, just had a friendly conversation struck up with me, normally about what I liked to carry and things. Never even been asked my name.

      Technically by the law this is exactly how it is supposed to go. Unless you are being detained they have no legal right just to ask you for you CPL. Or even say anything about open carry. Anyone who open carry should have a copy of MSP 86 (???) on them just to help those officers who don’t know the law.

      • I agree, that is how it’s supposed to go. I really don’t have a problem with an officer making contact with me.

        I also wanted to add that I don’t think the author of the original video did anything wrong. He even called ahead and all that business, and was right not to antagonize the police officer or use the school as a soapbox.

  10. I have been doing this since the first day of school with my daughter. EVERY SCHOOL-DAY! No advanced notice, no phone calls to the police… Why would I or anyone? I have a legitimate reason to be there and the legal RIGHT to carry.

  11. Kudos to you sir! I agree with the comments that the author should not have had to go through all the rigmarole before going to the school, but the best way to normalize guns is to set everyone’s mind at ease. He did this and did it well. Exercise your rights, but don’t be stupid about it – words to live by.

  12. Hey, Robert, if you’re hurting for copy, and cant post anything better than this, hit me up, I’ll write something cool for you.

  13. Disclosure, I’m the man in the video. Hi guys! The site can verify me if needed.

    To tlagnhof, this was my first time carrying in school. I didn’t want to cause problems my first time out. I understand it’s my right and I don’t have to ask permission, but in this political climate I didn’t need to feed the anti’s by making the news. When a 911 calls get made from a college because of NERF guns,

    I thought discretion was the best option. I was testing the waters. When I asked about calling each time I was just figuring out what the temperature was.

    It was really pointless to have a sheriff’s deputy there the entire time. The kids sit around all day without one, but I need one because I’m able to defend myself? I’ve given it a lot of thought the past day and I’m not calling the next time. My gun and I don’t need a chaperone to behave.

    To clear up why I’m not in jail, those of you mentioning federal law are correct but that federal law exempts those licensed by the state to carry a firearm in a school. The Michigan CPL law has a list of ‘pistol free’ zones which includes school and prohibits CPL holders from carrying a concealed handgun. The language allows open carry of handguns by CPL holders in schools. Federal law is satisfied because I’m still licensed by the state.

    Why not just let us carry concealed? I’m half convinced it’s just to keep us from carrying there at all. I’m done with that nonsense. I’m trying to find a way to normalize the sight of a gun to the masses. Problem is I really don’t like advertising I have a gun, but it looks like I may need to change my thinking on that one.

    And yes, the fingerprinting is quite pointless.

    • Lordcliff, thanks for clearing up the peg leg and high heels, almost spit out my drink when that posted!

  14. Why we still have some laws to deal with, we are very lucky to have Rick Synder right now. Things could be much worse. Also we now have no corporate tax. We were once ranked 47th in the US for business now we are ranked 7th.

    • yeah, I guess counting all of those Walmart and McDonalds jobs really helps when you are racing to the bottom…

    • ??? Snider has been ALMOST as anti as any Governor we have ever had! Granholm was more pro-firearm! Not saying I want her back but I for one can’t wait to throw Snider out on his a$$!

  15. This begs the philosophical question:

    If you engage in an otherwise legal act, that still has a good possibility of you ending up face down on the pavement and handcuffed, is it STILL civil disobedience?

    Citizens of Boston take note of the answer.

    • LoL!!! IF carrying in accordance with the laws of my State finds me “face down on the pavement and handcuffed” the State, county or city in which it happens will be paying to build my new house… An hour of my life in handcuffs for a brand new house would be a fine trade in my book!

      • You do realize that you can do nothing wrong and still be legally detained, right? The police need reasonable suspicion, not absolute proof. It is feasible that they can reach reasonable suspicion without you actually being guilty, and there will have been nothing legally wrong on their part.

        Example: A ‘concerned citizen’ calls 911 and reports that a “man with a gun” is waving it around at 123 fake street acting crazy, like he is going to kill someone. The police arrive and see you meeting a general description and with a weapon. They can (and probably will!) detain/disarm you until they can determine if you in fact committed a crime. You will get no house payments out of this, just maybe another crappy youtube video, assuming they don’t use inappropriate force.

        I’m not saying this is a likely scenario for most of us, but people need to realize that the courts have held consistently that the police do not need to spend time arguing with someone at the scene, whether it’s a traffic stop or a guy with a rifle; they can legally take some actions based on the evidence they have available at the time. And since you don’t KNOW what evidence they have, you’re not in a good position to determine if their actions are reasonable (that’s what judges get paid for).

        • Again I find my self LMAO! EPThorn, I actually had JUST that scenario play out last summer. The police showed up (A complete surprise to me) and asked me for ID. I respectfully declined, but otherwise complied with the officers investigation. When all was said and done the officers found that another person had seen what HAD taken place and the police left with the person who made the complaint in custody! Making a false complaint is serious business, LMAO!!! In this day and age it is near imposable to do anything outside your own home that is not seen by others and/or recorded.

          As a group, police officers are as interested in seeing justice served as anyone else. One complainant does not rise to the level of reasonable suspicion. People lie… Police AND courts know that. Sure they have to investigate, that is their job. No they are not happy when someone does not produce ID but they also know that the SCOTUS has ruled that a lawfully carried firearm is NOT cause to ID.

          I do not suffer form the same paranoia as many others do. I know the law. I understand the concerns of the police, my son is in law enforcement.

  16. before I watched the video I thought this was not very good idea. But after watching it I think it’s probably the only way people are going to understand guns don’t kill people.

  17. Genesee County? I’ve considered open carrying at my son’s school as well, haven’t had the opportunity yet. Good to see a positive experience.

    • I’m in Macomb county. I carry EVERY day. I have had ONE person (the school principle) ask that I not carry, although she also acknowledged that they could NOT enforce that request. I have had several people comment positively (all be it quietly) including one who told me she heard the principle’s comment and that I should ignore her and do as I please.

      Your mileage may vary!

        • It has been tried elsewhere AND FAILED!!! Do you not understand that schools, libraries, police stations, city halls… have all tried everything they could think of to keep lawful carry from happening in “their buildings”? They have lost case after case and paid large awards and huge legal fees? Look up the “Capital Area District Library Authority” case… Here, let me help you with this:

          A guy in Grand Rapids was “Questioned” for OCing in a school on election day.

          There is a lot more to the story than this little blurb. When that one was over they were kissing his back-side left and right. Not only did HE not violate any law but the school administrator violated his voting rights! The city, school board, police were falling over them-self’s sucking up to this guy so that he didn’t sue him.

          In Michigan it is well understood by the LLEOs that OC in a school WITH A CPL is lawful. Trying to charge a parent with trespass while dropping off a child… I really don’t think there is a school Principal left in the state that is stupid enough to try that… A few people posting on the web are stupid enough to suggest it but the police and school administrators, not so much.


    Is the link for the Michigan State police legal update, which Doug B. mentioned above. I carried this copy with me. It’s dated 2010, but I did verify with the MSP this is still current.

    A friend of mine in the same district will be crashing the May School Board meeting. With all the worry about cost of protecting our children in schools we’ll be pitching a dirt cheap idea.

    Parent Guardians. Since the CPL holders can carry why not let us? I will freely volunteer my time to randomly roam the halls of a school in my child’s district and I’m certain I’m not the only one.

    We can protect our own kids thank you. No need to find funding. We can make schools a less tempting target. I think I’ll advocate only patrolling schools a parents child isn’t in. Less chance of a conflict of interest.

    I’m open to suggestions.

    • Good luck with that. School boards and administrators don’t want you in the school UN-ARMED! And frankly, although I support lawful carry at all time and places, I don’t know your (in a generic sense, not anyone personally) skills with a firearm. I don’t know how you handle pressure. I prefer that if you are in a school with your sidearm that YOUR child be in the building! At least that way if something DID happen that you were compelled to draw your sidearm, you may at least consider YOUR child’s safety before dropping the hammer.

      As a former instructor and range officer, I would prefer that most who own firearms leave them in a safe! However, I am also happy that some impossible “proficiency test” is NOT a requirement for firearm ownership. I see people all the time that can’t hit a target at the range. What make them think they could hit a target that is firing back? My OPINION is that if you can’t put 7 of 10 rounds into a tea cup (about 3 1/4″) at 30′ and 10 of 10 into a coffee cup you shouldn’t be carrying outside you own home.

      About 95% of the shooters I have taught can come up to that level… About 95% of all shooters out there can not do it now!

  19. I’m usually not for open carry for political reasons.


    This guy found a way to pull it off expertly. Great job! He did everything he could do (more than required, he was practical, not ideological) to prevent a scene or confrontation. He had the high ground the whole time and looked it. He got his message across. Everyone knew he was doing it, they were likely instructed and trained properly before the fact. He presented a great example of gun owners, he demonstrated that it wouldn’t rile up the kids, he got them on record saying that the concealed carry in schools bill would have been “better”. Never seen it done better. Major Kudos.

  20. “Obviously you and I know I can’t do anything to stop you. I hope you realize what this is going to do to all those kids.”

    Yes, it’s going to give them the impression that we live in a free society where adults should be responsible for their own safety and livelihood. God forbid. Our governmental overlords sure don’t want that message being taught.

    • Even better, the kids will notice the difference between the propaganda and the actions of law abiding adults carrying in their schools.

  21. If your Taurus won’t feed hollow points,have it looked at.My PT 145 PRO eats everything except those alluminum cased rounds,as does my titanium 9mm.
    It’s the same size as the XDS but holds twice the rounds and is more accurate.Oh,and it’s less expensive.

  22. I had an 845 once. After 4 trips back tot he factory it still didnt work. Couldnt sell it fast enough.

    My PT111 pro on the other hand is flawless.

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