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Fact check: plausible?


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  1. Huh.

    In my last two-years gun and ammo-buying ‘binge’, not *once* have I even once contemplated buying an HK product.

    CZ, Ruger (3X), and Beretta have gotten my new gun cash…

    • (I should note that if an HK USP in .40 S&W was found on my doorstep, it would get a home in the gun safe…)

    • Ruger!! Have a couple. Love shooting them.

      Once I get my 10mm (not sure which), I will have all the pistols I will ever need.

      I think. Maybe.

      But rifles are next. Only a Mini 14 Tactical, right now. I am sure I will need more than that for the apocalypse.

      • My wife asks me all the time why I need more firearms. I ask her why the Leuve needs more paintings.

      • “But rifles are next. Only a Mini 14 Tactical, right now. I am sure I will need more than that for the apocalypse.”

        My very first gun purchase was a Mini-14 with a special (at the time) folding stock, the ‘sterile’ one Ruger developed for the select-fire version of the Mini.

        It just so happens, a company makes an exact replica. It’s not cheap, at about $300, but looks seriously ‘A-Team’ cool on it :

        You. Want. One. on your Mini-14… 🙂 🙂

      • A rifle/carbine in 9mm of course. Lots of 9mm laying about during the apocalypses and after.

      • For flocks sake!!. The ONLY pistol you will ever actually NEED as distinct from merely wanting, like a mentally retarded child wanting every banana in sight a new rattle for any bloody purpose is a SINGLE decent 9mm or a .38 Calibre. If we are talking self defence here you will not have the elfin TIME to start searching around anyway.’ On that subject- unless you are actually carrying ‘in-hand’ locked and loaded you are always at a very serious disadvantage and if a bad guty or gal is pointinjg a gun at you even attempting ‘self defence’ will earn you most likely a trip to the morgue. Why so?? Because if that bad guy or gal’s first thought was to kill you’d already be dead anyway so all myou are doing is turning a situation wherr YOUR death is NOT a given first choice into one where it most certainly elfin well is!
        Do not be fooled by a SINGLE exceedingly lucky incident where an armed bystander got bloody lucky in a mall and shot down a ‘perp’ [who incidently had already killed two people]
        What would have happen if the TEN SHOTS, he supposedly fired at FOURTY YARDS and got 8 hits, had ALL missed and hit other bystanders? 8 out of 10 hits on a man at 40 yards on the fly and in a hurry ?? I tell you what – he’d been held responsible for every injury and death that’s what! Even if he was perchance insured the premiums alone would be crippling.
        Either this bloke was one THE best handgun shooters on Earth or it’s a load of bullshit. He’d be lucky to do that in a moving situation with a an assault rifle !!
        THe fact that he’s now lauded as some kind on National Hero by the American pro-gun lobby and media is, to me, proof of such happenings being extremely rare when if we are to be believed in the efficay of being allowed to ‘carry’ is so proof against it happening in the first place. The fact is that with these kinds of shootings there are no practical deterrents as long as there is such an availablility of firearms and such loose licensing procedures.
        In fact there are NO deterrents to any kind of gun crime that work and that includes the Death Penalty for murder . Except for the odd and rare occasion it’s all a case of firefighting after the event. You could even double the number of Police Officers and it still wouldn’t work – even if you put a tax on firearnms to cover the cost.

        [Now why hasn’t somebody suggested THAT!] I do not know without bdoing the research as to how much each GUN CRIME costs in terms of POlice Time butI’d be betting it’s a bloody sight MORE than you might think. On the top of my head I’l say $US100 billion and wait for somebody to disprove it! What’s that from the tax point of view? At least several $US1000 per item I’d guess, and make it retrospective, per item?

        You know it. I know it and those raving wannabe Rambo’s should bloody well know it! Given the number of ARMED Americans out there armed to the bloody teeth, surely if gun ownership WAS a deterrent then the figures relating to the annual death rate due to gun crime should be going DOWN insteads of which it is going UP and has practically double in the last ten years or so. It will hit 30,000 per annum by 2030 at this rate.

        When is enough enough” ??

        • When I say it is, you retarded fake-Limey @$$HOLE.

          It’s called the “Bill of RIGHTS” for a reason, you abject, Leftist/fascist, mental defective liar.

          Oh, and SOD OFF, SWAMPY!!

        • Wow. dacian is patting his sock puppet on the head.

          The only one he can get to agree with him is him.

        • Tell that to those who survived an assault and then went in and got their concealed carry permit and training so they will be able to defend themselves next time and let’s not forget the 2.5 million reported incidents where people use firearms successfully each year to defend themselves, not to mention the unreported incidents.

        • I love it when hoplophobes twist a tale so much it breaks in half. Your fellow travelers have been claiming that guns kill between 30,000 and 35,000 per year for at least five or ten years that I’m aware of. So where’s the increase? According to hoplophobic figures (which vary a lot depending, I suppose, on which orifice they’re pulled out of) compared to the figures you quoted the total lives lost seems to be on a downward trend! This is only reasonable as despite the vast increase in gun owners during the past two or three years accidental firearm deaths are at the lowest point they’ve been at since the early nineteen hundreds. Try being honest and realistic instead of making up “facts” about guns. As for those of us who choose to go armed the Center for Disease Control (hardly a pro-gun organization) released studies in 2018 showing that guns are used defensively between 500,000 and three million times per year, usually without a shot being fired. Most criminals change their minds and go away as soon as they find their victims are armed and rarely is the experience reported to local law enforcement. An armed society is a safe society and a polite society.

  2. Daniel Defense for sure, at least with HK you get something more than an $800 mil-spec rifle that’s cerakoted with off brand stock.

  3. Their guns are not too outrageously priced…but, just wait until you try to buy additional magazines…!!

    • The HK tax, if they sell to you in the first place. Remember the HK response about selling guns to “CIVILIANS “:

      No! Because you suck and we hate you!”

      The Bundeswehr exists as a welfare agency for HK.

      • @SC

        Was at my range this morning. Had not shot my HK USP Expert in a while. Out to 50 yards it lobs 230 gr FMJ’s with almost boring consistency. Love the handling, accuracy and overall reliability…hate the damn “O-ring” that serves as a barrel bushing. When my groups started to open up I checked and, yup, the O-ring was broken. It is a quick and inexpensive fix…but…!

        The jet stream is farther north than usual lately and Summer has slapped my area with 35°C days (not typical). You do your errands / yardwork in the mornings and vegetate in the afternoons.

        • Tomorrow 200m, fine and sunny, expected 17c.

          My son wants to try a No4 .223 tomorrow. 1st match with a service rifle.

        • @SC

          Should be about time for your son’s match. Best of luck to him in his first service rifle match! 17°C (62°F) is perfect shooting weather.

  4. Heckler & Koch has always been expensive. Especially in the early days. H&K has always been worth it too. Not so much a fan of the new stuff. But. A 91? Haven’t been without at least one since 1982.

    • Gadsden,

      Serious question: What do you mean by “worth it”?
      Shooting experience? Durability?

      Just wondering. I don’t even look at Sigs, Kimbers, or HKs, because I cannot justify the price tags. My M&P 9 was a Black Friday sale; otherwise I would not have ponied up the dollars.

      Just asking how you judge value.

      • LifeSavor, experience, durability? Yes on both accounts. And then some. Now, I’m the first to admit the HK platform is not the best when it comes to ergonomics. Not the worst either. However, HK weapons work. That’s what counts first. They don’t break. At least I’ve never seen one do it. That’s what counts second. Everything else is incidental. To any weapons system. I speak only to the HK delayed roller block system and the P7M8. That’s where most of my experience lies. The thing about ergonomics doesn’t really apply to the HK P7M8. That is the most ergonomic pistol ever designed.

        • …”They don’t break…”

          Sometimes they do. Wife’s VP9 had to be sent to repair after 30 rounds when she first got it. IIRC we mailed it to the authorized repair place in Trussville, Al.
          I have shot it several times and can not get used to ergonomics of the grip, I have larger hands. I’ll stick to my Glock 2x4s.

    • That’s because it’s owned by BRITISH AEROSPACE and ENGINEERING [who are now one of the biggest suppliers of gear to the US Military including them big MF HOWITZERS] being sent to Ukraine and we BRITS who know what bloody suckers Americans are for all things that go BANG, BANG.
      Incidently the UK Police Armed Response Units use 9mm HK’s and with I believe aLOW VELOCITY ammo to limit collateral damage.

      • From the country that introduced retroactive birth control, such as the DeHavilland Comet, the R-101, and the Titanic. Dishonorable mention for the bizarre concept of “steam-powered fleet submarines”, no really, it’s hull was longer than its do -not exceed -crush -depth. Meaning its stern could be on the surface while it’s bow was in danger of catastrophic disassembly from implosion. I don’t know if killed anyone, but if not, it wasn’t from want of trying.

      • Albert the LYING Fake-Limey, Poncey, Rump-Ranger Subject,

        If only they had Lucas Electrics, like all of those FABULOUS cars y’all USED to build, amirite????

        Go fornicate thyself, Albert the Lying Fake-Limey, Fake “Firearms Instructor”, Fake Human Being. You are an annoying idiot, about whom NOTHING is true. Your existence, your comments, your alleged “expertise” are all fake. You are a Soros troll of a lying POS. Go roger yourself vigorously with a Louiseville Slugger, you fake Brit ponce. Ah, but you’d actually enjoy that, wouldn’t you, you fake-Limey ponce?

      • Per Wiki BAE sold off H&K in 2002.

        The engineering seems to be superior German waffen qualitat.

        Engineering today in Obendorf am Neckar.

  5. I owned an HK45 for a year or so. I paid way too much for it. The double-action trigger on the thing was ridiculous, long and gritty. I learned my lesson. Sold it at a loss of course, and bought a Glock 21. Cheaper, larger magazine, much better trigger.

  6. Long ago I owned a P9S, a P7, and an HK91. The P9S was a great pistol but I did not care for the P7 or the HK91, and nothing they have made since has made my I want it list.

    • Rusty, I almost bought an HK P9 .45 ACP not long ago. Couldn’t get over that European mag release. Same on the P7. That’s why I’ve always said the P7M8 is the thinking man’s P7. As far as the 91. Yeah, they’re a bit of a pain in the run but, they work. Everytime. They also almost never break. I only said “almost never” because anything can break. They are also very accurate. If you can get over that trigger. Or, know someone who knows how to do an HK trigger job. I do.

  7. Ex-wives & child support are expensive. And housing and vehicles.
    The thousands I’ve spent on guns n ammo(& accessories) is not comparable. Just so they run good in the coming apocalypse…

    • “Ex-wives and child support” are a poor return on investment. Firearms and ammunition always retain value years after purchase.

        • That depends if it’s a brass caliber that’s currently unobtanium…

  8. That cartoon sounds like that bald idiot, the former gun industry employee (forgot the turd’s name). He is spewing a lot of crap about the firearm industry advertising targeting young adults that have money to purchase what he terms “assault-like weapons”, people he claims will not have the sense to use them correctly in our society.

  9. The economy is collapsing. If you are still paying rent or mortgage, if you are still making car payments and have credit card debt splurging for H&K is foolish.

    joe burden and his minions(or is he the minion?) will not be happy until we are destitute and hungry. Do not make it easy on them.

    • Everyone knows Jethro you are a cheap ass hill jack. People with brains buy an HK that they know they can rely on even if they have to pay a few bucks more for them. But that is way over your stingy head.

      If you knew anything at all about firearms you idiot you would know that HK actually tests their guns before marketing them, they do not test them on the public which results in years of recalls.

      I have never had an HK pistol fail me.

      For the rest of you with brains I recommend the HK P30 and P30 sk , I own them both.

      • Liar. We all know you don’t own a gun. You fascist bastard you live in your mothers basement.

        • Well if he never had a gun he was telling the truth about never having an H&K fail on him.

        • Jethro I bet your carry gun is some rusted up .25 acp like a Targa or Titan you picked up at a garage sale for 20 bucks.

          And by the way Jethro you are in the minority as the majority of gun owners are not Far Right Neanderthals because most of them vote as Independents or Democrats. You live in your own little demented fantasy world.

          And the White Army did not beat the Red Army by throwing cream puffs at them. Ditto for WWII on the Eastern Front when we annihilated the German War Machine, ditto for the French Indo-China War, ditto for the American War in Vietnam. We the proletariat always win in the end and we will win in Capitalvania a well.

        • jwm,

          We all know dacian the demented dips*** is a liar; he proves it with every post he makes. What cracks me up is that he, MajorStiupidity, Albert the Fake-Brit Subject, and a few others, actually think we take them seriously. Other than as targets for ridicule, they serve no function. But their antics are, occasionally, slightly amusing.

        • Been in a lot of wars, herr dacian? Your mental illness shines through. In case you had not noticed, I’m sure you haven’t, joe burden has driven the final nail in the social lists coffin. By the time he leaves office there will be no left left in America.

          Those corporate billionaires you fascists serve now pushed the social list movement off a cliff.

          You are comedy gold, herr dacian.

      • ..” I have never had an HK pistol fail me…”

        Just means you have not shot enough, not saying I believe you as I don’t, but all firearms will fail eventually. People with brains understand this.

        • Manse,

          “People with brains understand this.”

          ANNDDDD, you just eliminated dacian the demented dips*** from consideration. If dacian had a brain, he’d take it out and play with it.

    • Look. The uh man that… chairs the uh place over there and the uh lady that explained transitory inflation, both say we’re not in a recession, even if it looks like it meets the old technical definition, or whatever. Those are the facts, Jack!

      We’re about to invest an unprecedented amount of money into solar panels. That will save everyone money by combating Putin’s price hike. That doesn’t sound like a recession to me. We have the strongest economy since World War II.

      • endless sound bytes of the talking heads repeating “two quarters of negative growth is a recession” while trunk was in office. now they’re saying the same indicators are not a recession.

    • Yup. Downunder inflation is set to hit 7% official. Interest rates are increasing to 2.5%. Gas is about $2 a litre. Electricity is set to increase by 33-50% so I have to choose between heat or eat, and eat wins.

      Just buying reloading supplies and little else for shooting.

      • If I never have to wear a helmet again I’ll be a happy man. Those old steel pots were headache makers.

        • They got a lot lighter(unless you are going for 308 rated ones) but the less heavy the more expensive……..still less than gen 2 nods though.

        • .308 rated?

          Yeah, you might live, but a nasty concussion is no fun to experience.

          My helmeted head breaking the windshield of the car that crushed my lower leg ‘rang my bell’ for over a week. If I tried to read a magazine article in the hospital after the surgical ‘festivities’ I was literally unable to remember a paragraph I read just a few seconds earlier. Not fun… 🙁

        • Shockingly no worse than getting your bell rung with 9mm in a kpot. Dyneema does some wild stuff until steel tips/penetrator gets involved. Especially when a decade ago it was barely rated for 7.62×39 (ECH).

        • And just noticed that there was more to your response, sorry to hear about the accident and one sergeant in our unit sprinted helmet first into a door frame for one of our watch towers trying to catch a private napping. 1week of staring at a wall later and still had issues retaining what he read. Force dispersion can get weird.

  10. I don’t think HK pistols are that unreasonably costed. Now those mp5s and the carbines? Yikes.

  11. Pretty much. It’s 2022, there is literally nothing HK is doing that’s unique to them. This isn’t the mid-late 20th century where they had some truly innovative designs (MP5, G-11, P-7, etc). They’re basically the European Colt nowadays; focusing almost exclusively on government contracts while building the exact same products as the competition but charging 30% more. Don’t get me wrong, HK doesn’t make crap… but anything they make, someone else makes a comparable or superior version for a lot less money.

    You could give me an HK firearm and I’d keep it and be happy, but I’d never purchase one unless I got a killer deal

  12. Full disclosure, I own a bunch of HKs.

    I’m really not sure how this meme makes much sense in comparison to other companies. There are loads of expensive companies. Some sell good products others sell expensive shit with a cool logo. HK is the former.

    In a world full of high end stuff of Korths and Wilson Combats, HK is a medium price point at most.

    Hell, a lot of HK stuff gives Kimber a run for their money on the price point and beats the fuck out of Kimber on reliability.

    • That is truth, but calling either of the group a good deal has never been anything but a stretch. Some just less gouge-y than others.

    • strych9,
      Once I got used to where HK put the magazine release, I will never go back to the side thumb release.

      • Change HK to Walther and I’m with you. I’ll never buy another handgun that doesn’t spin or wasn’t made by John Moses Browning around the turn of the 20th century that doesn’t have the trigger guard release. I have small hands, that changed my life!

    • How did you like the P30 and if you checked it out how did it compare to the VP9

  13. Bought my VP 9 because it fit my hand perfectly and had a nice trigger. I figure the little extra was worth it. The mags are pricey but I bought mine when they had a rebate of 4 mags to go with the 3 it came with. I also own a Taurus revolver that I’m quite fond of. Kinda funny anyway.

  14. Rented an HK at the range once to see what all the excitement was about. Nice enough – fairly clunky controls, tho – pretty ‘meh’ overall.
    I wouldn’t pay over $300 for a used one.

  15. There is something there I guess to turn peoples’ heads but HK never really did much for me. It’s not about price points. There is just no spark. I can hold one and it’s just there. Atleast with Glock, I get a a negative feeling.

    • PRNDLL – I enjoyed that last sentence. I don’t know why it tickled me so much, and I truly laughed out loud. 😆

    • “…but HK never really did much for me. It’s not about price points. There is just no spark.”

      Ever shot one?

      Find someone with one who will let you run 100 rounds downrange at your local range and you may change your mind.

      Like life mates, first impressions can be deceiving… 🙂

  16. I think they deserve some hate for it, but there’s quite a few companies that deserve the same treatment, particularly ones that make delayed roller blowback weapons.

    DRB is actually a very simple system and is only expensive because most people believe it’s expensive to make them. In reality They’re stamped steel and only just an advanced form of straight blowback. It was designed in the final days of the Reich while they tried to churn out the STG45 that never made it to the front lines. And that expense typically only applies to pistol caliber DRB weapons.

    Case in point, PTR. PTR makes a G3 clone that’s roughly a grand. But they also make an MP5 clone that uses far less material but is typically 2 grand or more. Sometimes you can find them lower, but either way, ALL companies that make an MP5 clone charge out the ass for them.

    Now, I don’t blame them, because people are willing to pay that much for them, but that’s based on ignorance. To me it’s like paying 2,500 for an AK. It’s a Fuckin AK. No sir. I think if more people knew that DRB was actually a “cheap” system people wouldn’t be willing to pay a premium for them, and the price would reduce.

    • Only substantive advantage of the HK v. PTR is the CHF barrel. Agreed on the AK, of which I am an aficionado of, but the prices these days are beyond reason.

      Saw recent-ish an unfired Polytech Mak some fool paid $3,200 for. Nope. Paid $425 for mine back in the heyday, and they will never be in my mind worth more than 2x that.

      • Agreed. I’m willing to pay more for something well made or adjusted for the era but I’m not about to be taken for a ride either. I bought a PTR for 900 and I like it, but I wouldn’t pay much more then that. Ditto on AKs too. Got one for 400$ back then too. Last year I did buy a Zavasta for a grand. I like what they’ve done to their style of AK. But agreed, I wouldn’t pay more then that either.

      • Many low-cost AKs and SKSs were shot and shot and shot until they fell apart, then people would go buy more. Now the supply has reduced and prices have gone up. :[

    • You could 3D print a MP5 clone, but I don’t know if it is basic blowback or DRB. I would guess the former.

    • You can get MP5s for less than $1200 now.

      One of the reasons you could historically get G3 clones for less than a MP5 is that entire armies were armed with them. So, with multiple licensed manufacturers all over the world making over 8 million of them, there were lots of cheap parts kits available after rifles were cut up for scrap. G3 parts kits were a few hundred $$ and at one time mags were only $3. Even now you can buy like new mags for around $8.

      The MP5 wasn’t introduced until the day of the submachine gun was largely over. While once millions were made for general issue the world over in WW2, by the 1960’s they were relegated to special anti-terrorist police units, border guards and special forces who used them for CQB instead of .308 battle rifles that were over 3’ long. So they never really made that many of them compared to the G3. If it wasn’t for the 1980 siege of the Iranian Embassy in London the MP5 would have been just another obscure European gun. After the SAS stormed the Embassy live on TV every police and military unit in the world wanted a MP5. Even with this success a HK MP5 German parts kit is still around $1500 and most of them come from cut up police weapons. The price isn’t high because they are so awesome (even though they are, it’s just that they are somewhat rare.

      The same goes for the old HK94 9mm rifles. Back in the 1980’s they sold for the same price as the HK91 .308. But at the time milsurp .308 was cheap, so people figured if you could shoot .308 for about the same price as 9mm, why buy a 9mm rifle? Sales were relatively poor. Maybe if Die Hard had come out a few years earlier? Only a year later in 1989 Bush Sr. signed an executive order banning imports of ‘non-sporting’ weapons and the importation of the HK9x series was stopped.

      PTR in the US bought equipment and technical data from FMP in Portugal after they ceased production of the G3. That and the availability of cheap surplus parts is the reason that you could buy a .308 for less money. When PTR recently introduced their 9CT & 9KT MP5 clones they had to tool up for a new product and that is always going to cost more initially. The same goes for Zenith who just came out with a US made MP5 at the worst possible time because Century is importing boatloads of cheap MP5s from MKE in Turkey.

  17. Plz don’t tell anyone about the HK45, if you aren’t a capacity freak it’s a fine arm

  18. HK seems to keep the supply artificially low in the US, so of course they outpace their generally perceived value. Personally, the P7 is is the only HK that I would want, so far anyway, and they don’t even make it anymore.

  19. LOL, I bought my USP 45 ACP full size in 2000 I think for $600, NIB with 2 mags. It’s a very accurate pistol, utterly reliable and fun to shoot. But it’s only concealable in Texas for like a three week period where it’s actually cold. It also weighs as much as a boat anchor.

    • Lord help you if you run across a full sized 1911.

      They’re gonna be about 350g/12.3oz heavier.

      • I like 1911’s but the weight difference isn’t as much as you think. Loaded weight is only about 6 oz difference, but that’s still a bit.

        But 2 7 round mags aren’t going to outweigh 2 12 round.

        For now though I’ll stick with my ancient Springfield XDM 3.8″ in 9mm for carry that I got in 2014. I’ll replace it someday but right now isn’t the time for new toys.

        • Unfortunately, I don’t have to think about it. I know the difference because I own both, multiples of them. I also have a habit of taking notes on things I nerd the fuck out about.

          Unloaded the standard V1 and V2 (other models are a negligible difference in mass, except maybe the V7 which I’ve never personally seen a copy of) USPs are 12.6 oz lighter than your common 1911’s which are 39.x oz unloaded (though they can get up to 18.4oz heavier depending on the model, or somewhat lighter, like down in the 9oz range if you go to something like a .22mag). For brevity’s sake, the 1911 is 39 oz and the USP is 26.4.

          With Remington Golden Saber 230gr, the extra ammo in the USP weighs 92.2 (3.2oz) grams more [averaged across 10 samples of five rounds selected at random without replacement] than the ammo in the 1911 unless you’re using an 8+1 1911 like the Ruger SR1911, in which case add 18.4 grams (0.65 oz) to the mass of the 1911 fully loaded.

          The difference between the two (assuming 7+1 on the 1911 and 12+1 on the USP), fully loaded, is 9.4oz which is 0.59lbs. For an 8+1, it’s 10oz, 0.63lbs.

          There, now my OCD has informed you, to at least one place past the decimal, on something you probably give exactly no fucks about.

          As for carrying one, the a full sized USP 45 has been my main CCW gun for years. If concealment is an issue, baring physical disability (which is a real problem for some), the problem is likely the holster. The same thing is true of finding the mass uncomfortable. The right holster makes all the difference in the world.

          I had to go through quite a few to find one that really worked on my 5’10” 140lb frame. I ended up with the ACE1-Gen 2 from BlackArch. Never looked back. (Unless I thought there might be something behind me.)

        • 5’10”? 140 pounds? You stand sideways and stick your tongue out you look like a zipper. 🙂

        • That is some real nerding the fuck out there.

          I’ve spent a reasonable amount of my life obsessing over details because failure to do so often results in someone dying, sometimes you.

          I picked up the obsessive habits from my mom who had a job where killing a building full of people was a daily risk.

  20. I have just one HK rifle.
    Every detail is perfect and functional and extremely German.
    Ein zer schone waffen!

  21. My cous had a hk rifle for about a month and traded it for a Thompson, I thought the hk kicked harder then it should for a .308. The Thompson was fun.

  22. Breaking: Today, Friday 29 July 2022 > H.R. 1808 Will Be Voted On …. Today

    “In a surprise move, the House is set to vote on H.R. 1808 tomorrow morning (Friday) at 9AM.

    H.R. 1808 would make it illegal for a person to import, sell, manufacture, or transfer the following:

    All semi-automatic rifles that can accept a detachable magazine and have at least one of the following features: a pistol grip; a forward grip; a folding, telescoping, or detachable stock; a grenade launcher; a barrel shroud; or a threaded barrel.
    All semi-automatic rifles that have a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
    Bump stocks and any part, combination of parts, component, device, attachment, or accessory that is designed or functions to accelerate the rate of fire of a semi-automatic rifle but not convert the rifle into a machinegun under NFA definitions.
    All semi-automatic pistols that can accept a detachable magazine and have at least one of the following features: a threaded barrel; a second pistol grip; a barrel shroud; a capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip; or a semi-automatic version of any automatic firearm.
    All semi-automatic shotguns that have at least one of the following: a folding, telescoping, or detachable stock; a pistol grip; a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 5 rounds; the ability to accept a detachable magazine; a forward grip; a grenade launcher; or a shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
    Any ammunition feeding devices (magazines, strips, drums, etc.) capable of accepting more than 10 rounds.
    While this bill has a “grandfather” clause, allowing for the sale, transfer, or possession of restricted weapons and magazines lawfully possessed before the bill’s passage, it would choke off the supply of these items and drive up the cost for future generations of peaceable individuals.”

    • The Congressional Budget Office cost estimate for H.R. 1808 >,weapons%2C%20largecapacity%20ammunition%20firing%20devices%2C%20and%20bump%20stocks.

      more info:

      H.R. 1808 has been sitting around since Mar 11, 2021.

      There was one committee meeting on it on 07/20/22

      The committee report was on July 26, 2022, you can see it here >

      The way it is written, it essentially places this ban action on all semi-auto firearms, including shotguns, and hundreds of bolt action single firearms center-fire or rim fire, eliminates common youth sporting rifles semi-auto or not, eliminates common hunting rifles semi-auto or not – and in addition it has specific firearms listed that would also be included in the ban – and leaves the language open to include more simply by ‘defining’ it differently by calling it an “assault weapon”.

      Essentially this bill directly regulates and decreases, and intentionally, denies and infringes the ability to exercise the second amendment, and indirectly and directly denies or infringes the first, fourth, fifth, and fourteenth amendments and they do it by use of the words ‘assault weapons’ – this affects 40% of the law abiding American population directly and another ~20% – ~30% of the law abiding American population indirectly (were planning to buy soon). It will also result in thousands of jobs lost not only in the firearms industry manufacturers directly but also indirectly in the parts, accessories, and related materials suppliers both directly and in directly.

      Ladies and gentlemen welcome to a direct frontal assault and war upon the Constitution of the United States and the law abiding American people, and the enactment of tyranny.

      I hope enough people contacted their representatives to let them know not to vote NO on this attack.

  23. Homeowner Has Shootout With Intruder While On The Phone With 911

    another bad guy ‘active shooter’ stopped by a good guy with a gun.

    (note: The FBI defines an “active shooter” as one or more individuals actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a populated area. Implicit in this definition is the shooter’s use of one or more firearms.)

    very few such incidents make the news

    bad guy ‘active shooter’ stops by an armed ordinary citizen (not law enforcement of security) happen about ~4,500 times daily across the U.S. –

    bad guy ‘would-be’ ‘active shooter’ (meaning the bad guy did not get a chance to fire) stops an armed ordinary citizen (not law enforcement of security) happen about ~2,000 to ~ 3,000 times daily across the U.S.

    • correction:

      “bad guy ‘would-be’ ‘active shooter’ (meaning the bad guy did not get a chance to fire) stops an armed ordinary citizen (not law enforcement of security) happen about ~2,000 to ~ 3,000 times daily across the U.S.”

      should have been…

      bad guy ‘would-be’ ‘active shooter’ (meaning the bad guy did not get a chance to fire) stops BY an armed ordinary citizen (not law enforcement of security) happen about ~2,000 to ~ 3,000 times daily across the U.S.

      • darn it… darn word press … not sure what it is actually… part of what I write gets omitted sometimes when I click ‘Post Comment’ using this browser.


        “bad guy ‘would-be’ ‘active shooter’ (meaning the bad guy did not get a chance to fire) stops an armed ordinary citizen (not law enforcement of security) happen about ~2,000 to ~ 3,000 times daily across the U.S.”

        should have been

        bad guy ‘would-be’ ‘active shooter’ (meaning the bad guy did not get a chance to fire) stops by an armed ordinary citizen (not law enforcement of security) happen about ~2,000 times and for other threats (e.g. violent criminals using knives, blunt objects, hand/feet) ~ 2,000 to ~3000, times daily across the U.S.

    • and this ‘thousands of times daily’ that a bad guy ‘active shooter’ is stopped by an armed ordinary citizen (not law enforcement of security) has been going on for years and except in some very rare cases it never makes the news even though it languishes in police reports (mostly cold case reports because most times the bad guy gets away after being stopped and repelled and is never identified or arrested). The ones that do make it to the news are usually the ones where the bad guy was shot an/or identified and very few of those make it to the news. Around 90% of bad guy ‘active shooters’ are never identified or caught, and most run when the armed citizen presents so overall armed citizens only end up actually pulling the trigger less than 5% of the time.

      Only around 11% of violent criminals are identified and arrested. Less than 3% of those 11% get convicted. What you see in stats is only for those criminals who have been identified (or those for which law enforcement have an idea of the identity).

  24. This is how I imagine most companies leaning too heavily on their brand think.

    Harley Davidson is another good example.

    A difference would be HK always attracted elitists whereas Harley attracted blue collars. Now Harley attracts white collar professionals and retired boomers.

  25. My son has an HK USP .45. Nice weapon. Pretty accurate, fairly reliable. Don’t much care for the ergonomics, or the trigger. Not worth what he paid for it. For half the money, but a Glock. At least as reliable, better ergonomics (at least for me), and as good as or better trigger (particularly DA – and Glock factory triggers suck out loud).

    Don’t dislike HKs, but wouldn’t pay the money for one.

  26. To all those stating HKs are ‘no better than (insert brand here)’.

    Time to drop some facts and truth bombs…….

    I’ve had my P7M13 out to two range sessions with the extractor removed. It ran (extracted/ejected/fed) over 200 rds of assorted FMJ and JHP flawlessly on each outing.
    This was with multiple shooters each time.
    Several shooters have produced the smallest groups they’ve ever fired with my M13.

    The Mark 23 can be submerged in an ocean surf zone for a week, have a loaded mag inserted, and perform flawlessly. Can shoot over 60k rounds and still maintain single hole at 50yds accuracy. One Mark 23 from the OHWS trials (1990s, look it up) had an additional 40k rounds fired thru it after the trials. That’s over 100k rounds total thru one handgun.
    The trials saw a few Mark 23s get rounds manually inserted into the barrel (to simulate a squib round), then get a live round fired to clear the barrel obstruction. The simulated squib guns were all fine (one had a slight barrel bulge), but ALL continued to fire and function properly. The use of tank barrel steel alloy makes this possible. Jeez, wonder if that stuff makes barrel material/production cost any more?
    The only item that needs replacement on a Mark 23s were .50c O-rings.
    Replacements installs in about 10 seconds, without tools or any disassembly, just slide lockback (needs replacement around 20k rounds, groups get slightly larger without the O-ring in place). The guns comes with a half dozen of them too.
    The HK Mark 23s patented recoil/buffer/damper system performs flawlessly, shoots everything from ‘bunny fart’ target load to 45 Super (10mm Norma ME). Even 460 Rowland (44 Mag ME) if the chamber is cut 1/16″ deeper.
    And the 🤪 bUt iT nEeD 2B cReW sErVeD BS?
    It weighs NO more than a double stack 1911, and is around 3/8″ longer.

    Yet HK people get called ‘fanboys’? And are told they’re only buying a name? 🙄

    Name a production handgun that can perform ANY of the things listed above.

    My M13 will once again be carried (in a Galco Miami Classic shoulder holster) once it cools off here in Texas.

    The Mark 23 (drop leg holster, 17rd HK USA mags, SureFire X400 light/laser) would be my ‘go to’ if parts were no longer readily available for firearms. Add an Obsidian 45 suppressor and it’s quieter than a paintball gun, even shooting 45acp plus P ammo (generating in excess of 500 ft/lbs ME).


    • Just to check my overall reading comprehension Mark 23 as is would cycle light target loads to 45 super as is and with a modified chamber/dedicated extra barrel handle 460 Rowland?

        • ………exceeds my fun budget for a while but making a note on that one. Any others in the H&K 45 lineup come close in that regard? Also thank you for the description lot to go through but covered a lot of useful bits of info.

        • Not aware of any other HK handguns that have been tested as extensively as the Mark 23.
          Only been around/fired one HK modified for 460 Roland, a Mark23.

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