Greetings! My name is Bob. Well, actually it isn’t but for the purposes of this submission that’s the name I am going to use. You see, I am employed by a Federal Law Enforcement Agency that is
currently circling your house at high altitude in black helicopters working quite hard to keep you safe. I know what you’re thinking: I am the enemy. Hell, sometimes even I think I am the enemy. However, 95% of the time I feel pretty good about what my particular agency does. No job is perfect but we do a pretty good job at staying within our moral, constitutional and regulatory limits. We were engrained at the Academy that we are the guardians of civil rights. My peers and I take that very seriously. The only reason I even allow for a 5% differential is . . .
– 3% of the time I have to deal with sadistic megalomaniacs who have no business being Agents in the first place. They give all of us a bad name and the armed citizen is right to hate their guts.
– 1% of the time I am downright uncomfortable with the constitutionality of a technique my Agency utilizes. However, that practice has been blessed by the U.S. Supreme Court, so any internal criticism from an Agent would be about as popular as Alona Tal at a PLO party.
– The final 1% is when someone in our ranks turns dirty; the ultimate betrayal of trust for which no punishment is too severe.
I digress. The reason why I am writing for the AI today is to discuss a particular topic: Use Of Force (UOF). Specifically, Federal UOF and how it applies to you. I am an instructor for my Agency in this regard so I can give you a few pointers. This is intended as a general guide so that you, the armed citizen,understand exactly how Agents will react to different stimuli. In theory, this makes both you and the Agents safer. But before you read on, please read and understand the following disclaimer:
***I AM NOT A LAWYER. THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. THIS IS GENERAL INFORMATION AND CLARIFICATION SHOULD BE SOUGHT FROM AN ATTORNEY IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS OR CONCERNS. DO NOT CONFUSE THIS WITH YOUR STATE OR LOCAL LAWS; WHILE THIS INFORMATION MAY VARY SLIGHTLY FROM AGENCY TO AGENCY, IT HAS NO BEARING ON STATE LAWS NOR DO STATE LAWS HAVE ANY BEARING ON FEDERAL UOF. DO NOT USE THIS AS A BASIS FOR ACTING AGGRESSIVELY WITH A FEDERAL AGENT AS IT WILL MORE THAN LIKELY END BADLY FOR YOU, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.***
To begin, everything we do in terms of UOF is governed by our UOF Continuum. Happily enough, I don’t even have to violate my mystery Agency’s disclosure rules to share it with you! It is readily available on Google. So here it is:
This model governs every single encounter an Agent has with another human being. While he/she is interacting with you they are also silently placing you somewhere on this continuum. The key thing to remember is that an Agent will only elevate his/her own UOF based on your actions. I’m going to discuss each step of the continuum in layman’s terms.
99% of the time, Agents are interacting with COMPLIANT subjects. This is the level where 99% of regular folks exist. On its face, the title would suggest that doing what you’re told is a prerequisite. It’s a little misleading because you don’t need to BE compliant, necessarily, to still fall into this category. For example, if an Agent simply begins talking to you on the street, that is known as a consensual encounter.
As a citizen that is not under seizure/arrest, you have the right to terminate that consensual encounter at any time and you don’t have to comply at all. If the Agent does not have reasonable suspicion that you have committed a crime, they cannot hold you or give you commands. You can use pejoratives, refuse to speak with him/her or just generally act like a snarkypants. You would still be considered “compliant” under UOF doctrine because you have not crossed any of the lines in the aforementioned continuum. Folks who HAVE been seized or arrested (in this case terry stopped) can also be compliant provided that they are obeying lawful commands and not offering up…
PASSIVE OR ACTIVE RESISTANCE. I will tackle these together as they are similar. Let’s say you’re under an investigative stop. This is a temporary seizure under the law known as a Terry stop. Note: I am trying my best not to make this “A Guide to Seizures,” as I firmly believe that is a whole different can of worms even if the two are connected. Trust me; if you think this piece of writing is long, it would be TWICE as long if I went into a legal rant about seizures. Even with the lengthy departure I just made. Perhaps Ralph would be kind enough to oblige below. Anyway, where were we? You’ve been stopped temporarily. The Agent orders you to exit your vehicle. You refuse, just sitting there. You are now PASSIVELY resistant for the purposes of UOF.
The agent has some limited UOF options available to him/her in order to gain your compliance in this situation. Mostly these include contact controls and pressure points. That’s a nice way of saying he/she can drag you out of the car and make it painful while it happens. So if you’re feeling like HD Thoreau that day (not saying that in a bad way as I am a libertarian myself) and you decide that the Agent does not have the suspicion level required to stop you, then that’s on you. The odds are, however, he/she has more than adequately articulated the legal backing for a Terry stop and you’re coming out of that car. If you just play like a rag doll while the agent removes you, you remain passively resistant. Just for funsies though, let’s say that he/she reaches in and grasps your arm. You pull your arm away, or maybe you remain locked on the steering wheel. You have just become…
ACTIVELY resistant. This could run the gamut from physically resisting being moved (e.g. remaining locked on your steering wheel) to getting out and running around while chanting “can’t catch me!” This is where things start to get interesting, because you’ve just opened up some new options for the Agent to get the situation under control. These options are take-downs, OC spray and the taser. That’s right; every time you saw a video and cried “tyranny!” when a cop OC’d a protester who was locked arm-in-arm with another, it might have been totally cool with his department’s UOF rules. In the event you’re being actively resistant with a Federal Law Enforcement Agent (FLEA), I am here to tell you that it’s Kosher with our UOF doctrine. Run, dance around to avoid getting caught, lock onto a steering wheel, jerk your arm away when the Agent tries to escort you; all of these will qualify you as actively resistant. Don’t tase me bro indeed.
So there you are, out of the car now and running around to prevent the Agent from getting control of you. He finally grabs you and executes a take-down. It hurts. This makes you angry. Angry enough that you continue a trend of poor decision making and you become…
ASSAULTIVE. Pause for a moment, because this is where things get pretty serious. Don’t be mistaken; if you were actively resistant on a Terry stop it’s not a good thing. You CAN be charged for that. Please don’t do it, as you risk injury to yourself and Agent. However, it has been my experience that if you weren’t involved in any criminal activity (the suspicion for which is why you were Terry stopped to in the first place), you’re not going to be charged. At least not at the Federal Level. Even if you were passively resistant, even if you were actively resistant, you’re probably going to be cut loose with nothing more than a few stern words.
That is unless the local PD wants to charge you with some form of disorderly conduct and they probably won’t (be warned if THEY are the ones who pulled you over it will be a different story, as local cops will not put up with shenanigans on a traffic stop). However, if you cross the line into assault there is no going back. You WILL be charged. Federally. Simple assault is merely the Agent’s perceived threat of an impending assault. I.e., you don’t even have to touch the FLEA to be charged with it. Please Google “pre-assault indicators” for more details. Simple assault will land you in prison for one year if you are convicted. If you actually make physical contact with the Agent, it ceases to be simple assault and the penalty becomes eight years.
As with all steps of the UOF continuum, the Agent retains the ability to use all the tools and techniques available to them at lesser levels in an assaultive situation. What they gain is the ability to use strikes and a Collapsible Straight Baton. Please note that a proper strike from a CSB will completely shatter a hand or forearm. So no matter how angry you get, my advice is to just remain calm and polite.
If you truly believe your rights are being violated, you should contact an attorney at once. The Agent is responsible to act in accordance with the constitution and applicable regulations. Hold him/her to that by taking legal action if necessary. However, barring some far-fetched fictional scenario where an Agent is a bona fide wolf in sheepdog’s clothing, if you assault a Federal Agent you are going to get hurt. Then you are going to go to prison. It’s not worth it, so don’t do it.
However, hypothetically you’ve made the choice to be assaultive on this Terry stop. The difference is, in this version of the story you’re WINNING! I know most of you will be shocked… SHOCKED to hear this: not every Agent is a total bad-ass and sometimes everyday folks and criminals are. Perhaps you’ve been taking boxing lessons since you were 12. Maybe Brazilian Jujitsu is your favorite hobby. Maybe the Agent has been throwing down donuts while you’ve been throwing people in Judo. Either way, you’re hypothetically beating the sh*t out of the Agent and loving life. Hurray! There’s only one problem: you’ve decided to die.
Defeat is not an option to the Agent. If you’re beating them to the point where they believe they’re going to lose consciousness, the Agent is going to shoot you until you stop. The Agent has every reason to believe that you’re going to kill them at that point. Unconsciousness = inability to defend one’s self and therefore unconsciousness = death, so the Agent is going to shoot until the threat is stopped. Similarly, if you’re beating him/her to the point where they believe you are going to seriously injure them, the Agent is going to shoot you until you stop. You might have guessed this already, but you’ve crossed over into the realm of DEADLY FORCE.
Furthermore, if you reach for or attempt to use ANY weapon, you will have escalated the situation to deadly force. To give some examples, reaching for, picking up, brandishing or otherwise wielding the following will result in the Agent using deadly force against you:
– A rock (either thrown or wielded as a blunt object)
– A pipe/club
– Anything than can be used as an improvised weapon/weapon of convenience
– Any edged weapon
– Any edged tool
– Anything than can be used as an improvised edged weapon
– Any firearm
– Brass knuckles
– Pointy sticks
You can use your imagination here. The bottom line is that in this fictional scenario your time is up. The agent has absolutely no responsibility to lay down his life or wellbeing for that of an attacker’s. Nor do they have any duty to retreat. The reins have come off and any tool or technique is fair game to stop the threat you have created. Running you over with a car? Cool. Shooting you? Of course. Stabbing you? A little dramatic but A-okay. Your best course of action at this point is to immediately cease all resistance and drop down into the compliance phase. Immediate compliance will lead to immediate de-escalation by the Agent.
This is, perhaps, the most important UOF lesson of all: the federal continuum is not a step-by-step process. Let’s say that we’re back at the beginning of this scenario, except instead of being passively resistant you immediately exit the vehicle and open fire on the Agent. The Agent isn’t going to try-out each step on the continuum before arriving at deadly force. It would be silly. The continuum is a sliding scale where Agents use tools and techniques to defeat threats at different levels. They will “jump” to different degrees of force as required by the situation at hand. If you’ve been paying attention, you also noticed that the Agent is always authorized to exceed a subject’s level of force by one degree in order to gain control.
UOF is something we oftentimes discuss here on TTAG. It is easy for us to get tunnel vision on the laws which apply to us as armed citizens. However, the rules that govern UOF for Law Enforcement Officers are equally important for us to learn. After all, combined with our actions they will govern the outcome of each and every encounter we have with LEOs throughout our lives. What I have written here is a federal perspective but it probably varies from State to State. A FLEA will not necessarily react the same way as a State Trooper. I suspect troopers will put up with a lot less. There may even be further variations at the county and local levels. Seek-out, learn and understand the UOF doctrine that governs your local police force’s actions. Understanding EXACTLY where you stand when you encounter a LEO is the first step to ensuring your safety.
Stay safe out there,
According to your teaching, they have the authority to kill me even if they are wrong. Your continuum has been used by tyrants for many years to justify illegal actions by authorities. “Just roll over and do everything I tell you and you will be OK.” “Don’t defend yourself or I’ll kill you.” “Don’t defend your rights, or I’ll kill you.” You are not a libertarian, and you certainly aren’t someone I would go to for help. “But, I was just following the instructions of my agency.” You ARE the enemy, even if YOU don’t think so. The British, the Gestapo, and the KGB didn’t think they were the bad guys, either. I call BS. Go peddle your lame excuses somewhere else. I’m not drinking your kool-aid.
That’s the first comment I’ve read, and it’s exactly what I think most of the rest will be like.
Sometimes it hurts when I laugh.
Fvck the FLEAs
I believe “Bob” was careful to point out that per his perception abut 1% of FLEAs are a$$wipes. The rest are, for the most part, trying to do a good job for the citizens they are sworn to protect. While it’s true that our present government is giving them some pretty unsavory things to enforce, a blanket condemnation of all FLEAs seems a little paranoid.
I liked Bob’s message, but I think that his 5% bad assessment was generous.
As many as half the cops I’ve met have been @ssholes who I wouldn’t trust to guard a fruit stand. And that includes Feds. But I hope it doesn’t include Bob.
Funny. . . that’s about the same percentage of @ssholes out of the general public that cops meet.
Maybe so, John in AK, but unlike the cops, the general public doesn’t have a license to kill.
Well if most people are a$$holes, then most LEOs will be a$$holes too since they are also people. It is that simple.
I am sure that the SS were just doing their job too.
The FBI has not legal authority in the states of the union except for the counterfeiting which ironically is something that they actively protect. The FBI just defends the big bank counterfeiters.
I had the same thoughts.
Psychologically speaking this is simple a road-map to escalation – it has no middle ground, no diplomacy, no respect for Rights or due process, because its coercion backed by authority – the framework along which any gov’t thug is authorized to submit people to that authority – end of discussion. The second you are on the chart, your only role is to decide at what point you want to submit to that authority. Neither right/wrong, nor Rights/Wrongs enter into it.
So while I appreciate him taking the time to write it up, its still just insulting to a law-abiding, sovereign citizen of these United States. The best policy is still to minimize or outright avoid any contact with law enforcement personnel. When their job is dealing with criminals, all they see around them are criminals.
Whether its a simple zero-tolerance school policy or this UOF, the purpose is the same, to remove the critical thinking and the emotional sense of responsibility during the execution of authority.
“Funny. . . that’s about the same percentage of @ssholes out of the general public that cops meet. ”
Only it’s not against the law to be an asshole. Assholes have constitutional RIGHTS, and asshole COPS ought to respect them.
If you can’t stand assholes, you’re in the wrong line of work. They’ve on the street, and the station house is FULL of them!
I was always able to stand @ssholes. Except for the ones who tried to kill me. Rather understanding of me, what?
Hold on to your steering wheel when I try to remove you from your vehicle and I will fvck you up. WLP was right. Jack booted thugs.
As stated above, only pain compliance techniques such as pressure points are permitted in that situation. Strikes, baton, OC spray, taser; all these things that you indicate would “fvck you up” are totally off limits. Approved pressure points and pain compliance techniques cause no injury to the subject.
Despite all of the hype, hate, threats, slander, emotion, mischaracterization and misinformation being thrown around in the comment section (not unlike civilian disarmament advocates), UOF is almost always what the non-LEO makes of it. It is a scale of responses, not proactive actions. In those rare cases where a LEO exceeds the level of force appropriate for a given situation, the LEO will likely face termination or jail.
US v Bad Elk, the Supreme Court, at one time made the statement that resisting an unlawful arrest, up to and including the death of the officer was our inherient right. The roles have been reversed. You will notice that there is no change in the Constitution addressing the matter, there has been no amendment restricting our Common Law rights, this has been done over time, incrementally and with a goal toward complete subjigation of the citizens.
We have the courts and the legislatures to thank for this. So don’t be mad at the law enforcement people, take it to the judges and the legislators who sit on their little ivory thrones and look down on the rest of us. We have become cattle because we did not study, learn and exercise our duty to control our employees:
“We the People are the rightful masters of the legislature and the courts. Not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow those men who pervert it.” Abraham Lincoln
So if you have issue with the way things are being done, remember that the officers on the streets are doing the job they have been allowed to do, they are not the source of the tyranny. If you are going to act out your resolve and reghtous indignation, take it to those who are lording it over you, that keep you suppressed by their high and mighty attitudes. Remember there is a difference betewwn appeals to authority and reeal authority. The tyrants only have the authroity that the “few and defined” powers have “delegated” to them, Madison’s own words. If they act out side that authority they have no cloak wih which to protect themselves. As Locke would say, whoever uses force without law is doig so without right, all civil bonds are dissolved, we are returned to a state of Nature and everyone has the right to defend themselves agaianst the aggressor.
Enforcement is not the same as adjudication. One’s goal during enforcement is not to compromise your rights or self incriminate. Period. There is no, “I don’t think I did anything wrong, so I’m not going to let you arrest me.” That’ s not how it works, in a civil society as well as a police state.
At trial is when you argue for your defense. No FLEA or LEO is going to debate with a suspect their potential guilt or innocence. They may ask questions pertaining to facts and intent so as to better determine who to arrest and charge. And here’s where you can decide whether you’re better off answering their questions or STFU.
I don’t see how your rights are necessarily violated. You still have the right to remain silent, the FLEA or LEO still has to have a reasonable articulable suspicion that you’ve committed a crime to detain you, or probable cause to arrest. And they have to inform you of that fact at the time. And if they violate your rights, you can take legal action against them and their agency.
The only safe thing to do with any form of LEO is be compliant physically and don’t answer ANY questions beyond being asked if you might want a glass of water or cup of coffee. The ball is in any LEO’s court when interviewing you. They’ve done it hundreds of thousands of times, you are probably being recorded. How many times have you practiced being interviewed without accidentally incriminating yourself in some fashion, even on something un-related to why you were being detained.
Like a lawyer friend says: If you never had boxed before or even much paid attention to the sport, would you get in the ring with Mike Tyson?
Don’t fight anybody and STFU from the start.
The only valid initial thing to say is “Am I being detained or am I free to go?” If you are told you are being detained, that is not a reason to debate or ask about why. At that point you just be physically compliant and as mad as you want to be in your head. Be as curious about the situation as you like. Don’t talk to LEOs. They will try to get you to talk, often in a friendly manner. They aren’t doing it because they are interested in your life or if you’d been fishing at their favorite lake. They are trying to establish a rapport that will allow them to slip into questioning mode. Next thing you know, you are answering questions without a lawyer, and you didn’t even notice until it was too late.
I am not an attorney and am in no way involved in law enforcement.
I believe with all my heart that SomeFellerInTexas is exactly right Silent compliance is the best way to behave in a normal (public) police or alphabet agency interaction. The only words that come out of your mouth should be “am I being detained or am I free to go?” and “I do not consent to any search.”
Now there are two levels to the logic I am presenting.
1. You are not currently doing anything illegal and could not realistically be convicted of something based on an inventory of your person and items under your control.
In this case, fighting against the police is a bad idea because you are actually initiating a level of conflict you may be unable to prevent from escalating due to factors outside your control. A crowd may gather and exacerbate the situation and you may be the victim of a nervous agent’s being too quick on the trigger or with the baton. And let’s not forget the high level of “throwaway” charges that can be levied against you for resisting arrest or “interfering with an officer”. Also a pissed off police officer or agent who is ethically challenged may plant something on you in revenge for your not bowing to his authority.
2. You are doing something or have something in your possession that the local or federal officials see as illegal.
In this case acting calm and rational may prevent the officer from figuring out that you are not entirely legal at this point. If you don’t act suspicious it will be more difficult for the LEO to “articulate a valid reason” for detaining you or searching you. There have been searches thrown out and charges dropped after a LEO was found unable to state a probable cause for the stop and search.
Remember the ten percent rule.
Ten percent of *any* group of people are generally recognizable as assholes. Ten percent of priests, ten percent of kindergarten teachers, ten percent of FBI agents, and ten percent of police. The corollary to that rule is that if you can’t identify the assholes in the group you are in you are probably a ten percenter.
No LE, Federal, State, or local, has the authority to just kill whenever they feel like it. That is reserved for military and other agencies that aren’t strictly law enforcement, and I’m not going to try and sort out rules of engagement or the legitimacy of military action without a declaration of war, or anything else related. I’ll just say I’m not a big fan of drone strikes.
This whole piece is about the use of force. If you’re driving at the speed limit and you get stopped for speeding, that doesn’t mean you’re justified in trying to kill the officer stopping you. I can’t imagine a lawyer telling you as a client that your best legal bet is to try and punch out or shoot at the cops or the FBI. Most of the time they will tell you to not resist, to not answer questions, and to wait until they get there.
Read the whole thing again, the amount of force used is almost completely decided by the actions of the person being stopped. Unless you run into one of the sadistic megalomaniacs he mentioned. Even then, ask your lawyer for advice before fighting.
No. According to his teaching, they have the authority to kill you if you try by any means to seriously injure or kill one of them or a third party. Even if it turns out that they were wrong at the beginning of the contact, should the level of threat escalate, so will their response.
He does not say that nothing will happen to them if they are wrong; He simply states that they are not going to let you kill or maim them just so you can prove how wrong they were. That is a job for the courts.
It was a nice effort by ‘Bob.’ My personal escalation chart looks quite similar for the “miscreant screwing with me” SOP. However, I note he left off one of the standard levels, just above “Active Resistance,” the well-known “Reaches for his cell phone.”
Eight years for even touching a fed….no way. If that were real and it happened to me, bad things would occur upon my release.
Obviously that depends on context. Pating a FLEA on the shoulder and saying “howdy” is a lot different than punching him. If you’re agressive with any LEO and you put your hands on them the penalty will be similar. Check your local and state laws to see what applies to you.
Well, that escalated quickly! Bob is not bragging about how he can get away with kicking your butt. He is telling you what WILL happen if you choose a certain path. Unlike the Gestapo, where you disappear permanently, as a Federal prisoner/defendant you can avail yourself of an attorney to properly express your opinion that you were unfairly treated by your government. The place to argue innocence, RAS and probable cause is NOT at the time of detainment/arrest. Cops are people too, they do not want to be assaulted, and they have clearly defined rules of engagement. Play nice and use the legal process if necessary. Getting into a scuffle, or worse, with any LEO proves nothing except stupidity and certainly doesn’t make it right.
Actually a technical arrest is the stop of your forward progress. Any stop immediately triggers the rights of the citizen. Not allow a citizen to proceed is a seizure and both are subject to the 4th Amendment restrictions. This convienience thing is a fabrication by the courts and enlarged by regulation and errosive of the origional intent. No amendment, no law. There is one method of changing the Constitution and that is by an amendment. It is in and of itself the authority to change, you just have to abide by the authority. The legislatures and the courts count on the law enforcement to do theier dirty work and keep the citizen conditioned and in their place, according to their twisted sense of authority.
Remember tha ignorance of the law is no excuse, well it goes equally well for those who enforce the law. You have no duty to enforce an unlawful order whether you are a civillian or law enforcement. Inthis light these LEs type are telling you they do not care about the supreme law of the land, they will disregard it and if you rsist them as is your right they will kill you.
I asked an officer on the witness stand if he know what the perameters were for a lawful search and sizure. The prosecutor stood up and objected and said “he (the officer) is not qualified to know what a lawful search and seizure is”. So who the heel is and is the officer also a citizen and are we not all constrained by the statement that ignorance is not an excuse??? Such is the situation when the survants make themselves the masters… because they are more enlightened I ask….. obviously not.
Time have certainly changed but human nature has not and we see that the Constitution was written with “timeless princliples” that are representative of human nature and not just a arbitrary collection of words used to subjugate a people. All this sleight of hand and smoke and mirror politics is fit for criminals not statesmen. Those who would grasp at any straw to continue their domination over others by the sheer usae of force deserve no better.
And lets call a spade a spade here, this is domination by the sheer use of force, there is no reason, there is Marxist operational action. The Marxist activities have been operational since the turn of the century… the last one 1800- 1900. Brandeis and Frankfurter were both devout Comminists and both on the Supreme Court. Just how many have been legislating from the bench since then??? If they want to legislate, they need to resign and run for office. The Constitutionitelf states that legislators shall not be an officer in any other branch of government, Seperation of Powers Doctrine. Why are the violating that??? They are tyrants.
The Constitution only authorizes a Republican Form of government, Article IV Section 4. You boys in LE need to learn it also. Remember its not the citizen you have to face in the end, although it may very well come to that, it is God, in whatever name you call, that you must answer to. You ahve been given this authority in trust to serve and protect the People, not the self serving politicians. Te passage that states he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword means those who live by the use of force will die by the use of force. You in LE have made you choice to live by the use of force. Lets examine that. Do you think anyone would would obey an order given by you if you did not have a badge, a gun and a radio to summon others to assist you??? So the use of force or the threat of the use of force is all that you have to corece people with. You do not use reason or the law as authorized by the Constitution, as everyone is supposed to know as ignorance is no excuse, or pretty words; you use force or the threat of force. We only have to look at the TV to see how you use it, sudden and violent if people refuse to comply. You folks and you handlers parade it around so everyone can see how force will be used on them if they do not comply with the whims of their supposed servants. If you take an oath to uphold the Constitution you better damned well know what it means or you have no complaints coming. So in light of this how should the rightful masters of the Courts and the Legislature respond if you overstep your bounds.???? Or better yet how do you respond when someone resists your orders, even though they may be unlawful orders??? And remember this, it si the citizen who pays you wage, your insurance your pension and your disability if you are injured in the line of duty, not the politicians. How do you treat us and should we not respond in like kind. The Bible says to cut off the ear of a servant who will not listen. How many of you would be earless now……
Do keep in mind that federal cases have like a 98% conviction rate. They will record your conversations with your defense and provide transcripts to the prosecution and do all sorts of other neat things. Form 302’s (the ones on witch the FBI “writes down” what “was said”), just giving agents a place to insert whatever confessions they want, as NO RECORDINGS are allowed. If the eye of mordor falls upon you, you probably might as well just shoot it out while you still can. There is NO RULE OF LAW ANYMORE! And what laws are written (that are actually followed), are tyrannical at best.
Resistance is futile. That being said, we will all (agents too) come to the point some day where somebody will say to us “now now Mr. Jones, look at me like that again and I will take another couple of days to change your diaper”.
Sooooo….those LEOs (or whatever they were) in Boston, who pulled people out of their homes, and aimed their weapons at people who were watching from their homes…where in the continuum are those actions to have prompted their actions?
Funny, but I haven’t heard anybody in Boston complaining. Have you?
I can’t find the link right now, but I read a very snarky blog post by a Boston resident who wanted to make it clear to the world that nobody was dragged, marched, or otherwise forced out of their homes by LE. Seems they were asked in a relatively polite manner to clear out, and the vast majority were happy to do so.
I wasn’t there, but the people claiming that they were didn’t have a problem with how it happened.
Stop that! It’s not FAIR to screw up a perfectly good conspiracy theory with fact.
“I read a very snarky blog post by a Boston resident who wanted to make it clear to the world that nobody was dragged…”
Dude there are videos on YouTube of what was actually happening. You don’t have to take anybody’s word for it. Just listen to the gentle and polite tone of the police asking kindly to “PUT YOUR HANDS UP!!!!”
Anyhow, this is what Bob is conditioning you for: I am a federal LEO. Right or wrong, I am the law. You will accept all manner of indignity by FLEO’s. Your duty, as a non-government mundane, is to take whatever indignity I throw your way. If you look at me mean, or close your fists in fear and anxiety… YOU… just escalated the use of force. It doesn’t matter if I perceive your reaction as nothing more than a reaction to being intimidated. I am lawfully given the authority to escalate further indignities towards you. Remember, it is not your perception that counts, but mine. Right or wrong, whether I am pulling you out of your car or home, breaking your bones, or shooting you… your job, as a mundane, is to TAKE IT… until it stops and you get a chance to get a lawyer… in which case, we will charge you with layers of criminal charges, many of them redundant, with the full knowledge that our DOJ has a 99 percent conviction rate. Your call mundane. Something WILL stick. Feel like resisting now? Even if I am abusing you?
Face it, what is the percentage of LEO’s who are kicked off the force, versus those who are just given a paid vacation for their misdeeds? And of those who do face prison time, their incarceration is the minimal that a mundane would suffer.
KNOW YOUR PLACE CITIZENS! Know where you stand in the Caste system!
Bow down to your masters, bitchez.
Sometime the sheep cannot tell the dogs from the wolves…can you???
Here are some people complaining: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lA69pQY9ldg#at=138
That was the opposite of a “street sweep”; there, they swept everyone INTO the street. Like garbage, like dryer fuzz.
And those people should have had a ceremony and been given GOOD CONDUCT MEDALS, for being so tolerant of those jack-booted asshats.
I is embarrassed for Boston.
That should be your default condition, regardless of any specific event. That town’s been a punchline since long before any pressure cookers exploded…
The Federal government has no Constitutional authority for any police power not involving counterfeiting, piracy, or treason.
Government employees should not have any personal security provided by the tax payers. So disband the Secret Service.
If you are so damn proud of what you do, post under your real name.
Secret service protects currency too mate.
They “protect” U.S. currency in the sense that they go after counterfeiters. But their currency is counterfeit in the first place.
Good! Give me all your counterfeit specie…
NO! Me! Give it to me!
Oh, Jesus. Another sovereign citizen/gold standard a$$wipe.
The FIRST job of the Secret Service is to protect the Federal Reserve (and the currency)… The SECOND job is protecting those (the prez, ex-prez, & immediate families) in power.
US Marshal Service
There are Federal agencies with much, much broader constitutional powers than what you have mentioned.
If you don’t know what you are talking about just keep your comments to yourself.
If you threaten the life of a Federal officer in any credible way you are going to get shot.
Actually a great deal of the laws are for the District of Columbia. If you read a lot of the Federal Statutes a state is Pueto Rico or Guam, ie terrotory. By and large the vast network of statutes apply to citizens of those federal areas. They get to use Commercial Law or Statute law there without regard to the Common Law as they have exclusive legislative jurisdiction. Also, Constitutionally they are relegated to holding land for docks, forts, arsenals and other needful buildings. Federal Parks and National Forests are not in the document, but that is just a point of interest….
I have a degree in the field and served as a clerk for a judge. I have devoted over 30 years to my independant study of thelaws and the origions of the Constitution. Of course I have no Yale or Harvard degree. Since the Communists infiltrated those schools first, I am glad I don’t. I don’t read the modern “interpretation” of the Constitution, I read the Declaration, Elliots Debates of the Constitution from the notes of Madison who was the secretary during the debates, the Federalist Papers and Blackstone’s Commentaries as annotated by St George Tucker.
THe fact is that if there is no amendment changing the Constitution there is no lawful change and any attempt to do so is usurpation and treason. Not my words but from the Federalist Papers. You can find these in PDF from on the net. Do some word searches and really see the truth. The truth will set you free.
“My people are destroyed for their lack of knowledge”
AMEN…..I found most people without degrees are the smarter ones. The ones who do their research. Thank you.
Rule number 1. The side of the road at 0130 is not the place to argue with a cop. That’s why we have lawyers and judges.
Rule number 2. Getting physical to ensure that your constitutional rights, as you percieve them, are respected is going to be a life altering experience. If it doesn’t become life ending.
The law men follow that old rule of gunfighting. They have a gun. And they have lots of friends with guns. You lose.
What if it’s in your bedroom, unannounced, at the same time? Submit now and find a sympathetic lawyer later? Take a principled stand no matter what?
Bob didn’t advocate a position one way or the other. All he said is what may result. Don’t you want to know?
If I lose, I lose. Maybe my children and grandchildren won’t have to. I am a very law abiding person, but I refuse to bow to evil. You make your own decision and I’ll make mine, if it becomes necessary. I was always taught to protect the innocent and resist criminals, but we’re all taught differently.
Merit, Robin, at what point did I say to bow to evil or not take a principled stand? My comment was about interacting with a cop on the side of the road and you turn it into a bedroom struggle.
And I will resist evil and criminals. Of course, I don’t think that all cops are evil or criminal. I don’t know what sort of lifestyle you’re leading when you see a cop and you automatically start thinking of violent resistence.
Agreed about the side of the road, but the overarching implication is that you always obey, no matter what happens or how. In light of numerous recent events, the bureaucracy of the federal government is not exactly receiving high marks in the trust with absolute power category these days. My questions were real questions. What do you do?
I lead a lawabiding life and have never had a positive interaction with any leo. Thugs and tax collectors is all they are.
Merits, fair enough. At what point do you not comply? In my interactions with LEO’s over the years I’ve never had that Hollywood monstrous over the top cop. Twice in my life I’ve had cops point guns at me. Both times the situation ended peacefully and after an explanation from the cop I was okay with the use of the gun. It’s never a good feeling to have a gun pointed at you, but it’s understandable in a few well defined instances.
When do we not comply? I haven’t seen that moment yet. Hopefully I never will.
@Merits, assess the situation and do what you think is required. Which could be anything from standing down to killing everyone you see.
Nobody can make that decision for you.
Merits, when you are confronted with an officer of the government you have only two options. One: You can work within the guidelines of the system. You can obey, and petition for the redress of grievances, you can pursue all the legal and non-violent options open to you. Two: You can reject the system, remove yourself from it’s confines, and through violent means attempt to replace it with one you approve of.
The thing to be aware of, is that as long as you remain within the system, you retain the option of choosing the other option in the future. But it doesn’t work the other way.
The moment you step outside the system, you cannot choose to return to the process. You are no longer a citizen of the United States. You do not any longer have legal protection. Your right to take this step is affirmed in the Constitution, but this is where the Constitution ends. There is no more Constitution for you. This is the “Nuclear Option.” You are a traitor now. There is no such thing as “unreasonable search and censure. You do not have any property rights. If you succeed in you endeavor you may set up whatever new system you choose. Until then, you are not within any system.
This is why, as the Founders said, it is the nature of humanity to endure the system as long as possible. Because as long as you do, the choice of escalation is in your hands, and you can achieve an end short of the destruction of the current system, and the establishment of a new one.
jwm, I’m actually a retired Army officer that truly believes in the oath I took to defend the Constitution. I haven’t been in trouble with the law since 1979 and that was an accident (well, I got a ticket for obeying the law but the officer chose to lie in court – does that count?). How many people were attacked who didn’t look like Dorner? Why does a Baptist minister get beaten half to death at an ICE checkpoint? Why does a minister get shot by police because he was talking to criminals? It seems to me that a lot of LEOs have declared war on on average people. When did their safety become more important than yours or mine? I’m sure a lot of Jews in Europe thought along the lines of complying with police, too. When do you take a stand? Only after you are personally beaten or an LEO kills your child? Is it after the SWAT team breaks down your door and shoots your 95 year old grandmother? It is time for all the good LEOs to start arresting the bad ones instead of advising us to get a lawyer. I’m not a dog that allows my owner to beat me. I don’t have a clue where your “bedroom” comment came from.
Robin, I was replying to you and Merit. His comment concerned the bedroom. Where do we draw the line? As long as we have a functioning system we work within it.
You’re retired military. quite a number of our fellow commentors on TTAG consider the military to be as guilty in taking our rights as the cops. Jack booted thugs is one of the discriptions I’ve heard. It’s as untrue and unfair as the claim that all cops are the enemy.
I have seen more than a few military officers removed for violating their oath (which includes obeying the law). I supported their removal and I still do. I have seen very few LEOs removed for violating their oaths. The good ones need to start standing up to the bad ones and their bosses before I start trusting them again. I grew up trusting the police and it was really hard to teach my boys otherwise. I trust the LEOs I know personally, but no others. The LEO did lie in court in my case and I reported his lying to the Chief of Police. No action taken. That was the last nail in the coffin of my trust for police.
A lot of people despise the military without reason or rationale. Most are good, but the leadership tends to discharge the bad. When the police start doing the same, things might change. Once again, when did a LEO’s safety become more important than mine?
had a deputy show up a 13 yrs ago to serve a complaint against my ex (then) wife. She was being sued and yes, she was in the wrong. The original process server showed up and wouldn’t leave (and tried to force their way into my house when I opened door) so I grabbed J.E.D (my Jesus Educational Device aka Mr. S&W .357). Suddenly, the process server figured out this lawsuit was not worth a hollow point in the ass. So, anyhow, 3 hrs later, here is this deputy. at my door. I answered it and had JED on my hip. In my house. Process server was standing there near the deputy’s car. cursing. Deputy asks for my ex. I tell him she is not available, even though she is about 5 feet behind me. He puts his hand on the door and pushes slightly. I unbuckle JED. He asks if I intend to shoot him. I ask if he has a warrant. He says no, and I suggest that he reconsider his next move on a warrantless entry . . . or, since I was an officer of the court, he allow me to accept service of process for my ex. He figured that was a wise course and handed me the papers and left.
Sorry, but I am from Detroit originally. RIP crews always pretend to be one of the alphabet boys and force their way into a home, hoping people don’t resist. if you come into my house with other than a kind word and my permission, you may meet Jesus if I pull out and use JED . . . . . and if I go, I am going in a blaze of glory.
all my weapons have names. JED was my first acqusition – nov. 1999 or so. I call it that because if i=I pull it out and point it you, you will yell “Jesus Christ” right before you meet my Lord and Savior in person. 🙂
And what specific model s&w device do you use to ‘educate’ these wayward souls into invoking the name of our savior, dear brother?
Pay your bills.
And the lawyers and judges will side with the LEO regardless and you still lose. Only way you might win is if you have concrete proof and the judge doesn’t feel like ignoring it.
Thanks. Truly I mean it, not sarcastic.
Serious question here looking for a serious reply. Do cops ever consider that loads of bad things can, and do happen, to cops when they use force? Meaning, even if you shoot a suspect, and the shoot is cleared buy IA or whoever, that you could very well end up a desk jocky for the remainder of your career? Do you ever worry about a video of you coing viral? If you maim someone during an encounter don’t you ever worry about the guy (or girl) coming back later and targeting you or your loved ones? Ever worry about using force on someone who is “connected” to powerful people in government or cartels? Etc. Etc. Etc.
I’m not Bob, but I can answer your questions from a state level…
We do consider the consequences of using force. There are lawsuits, internal investigations, and long term psychological effects from using force. The first time I used force, it wasn’t even deadly, but I thought about it for a long time because of the damage I inflicted. Using deadly force has actually been easier for me because my options have been more explicitly clear. I don’t like using force because it can so easily result in someone getting injured, but if I am left with no other options, then I will reluctantly use it.
As far as shootings, I have never seen or head of any officer ending up as a “desk jockey” after being cleared on a use-of-force, including those that are deadly. As a matter of fact, most of the cases I am familiar with, the law enforcement officer has been back on the street by their next shift.
Videos are a fact of life – if anything, they mean we are more careful about what we do. Remember that we have our own recording devices also, so our employers don’t need to rely on the public to keep tabs on us, though they are certainly free to do so.
What Bob said about collapsible batons is entirely correct – they destroy whatever bone you strike, and the damage can be permanent. People get sued over it, but if you are within department policy you have nothing to worry about. As far as someone trying to get even with you, it has happened – I am reminded of a district attorney that was shot at his front door by someone he convicted. The fact of the matter, however, is that almost every criminal is a coward, and some time in jail or prison cures them of the desire to “get even.” I hear the same talk here as I hear on the street – “I’m going to defend myself” or “I will fight tyranny”, etc., but I have yet to encounter someone who doesn’t decide to handle things in the court. There was a comment earlier about taking on the police so that their kids or grand kids don’t have to, but those people should find Randy Weaver and ask him if he would do things differently if he had the chance.
Bob mentioned non-compliance on a traffic stop. He is completely correct. Disobeying an unlawful order will absolutely result in our using force, and my agency’s policy is clear on that.
I think Bob’s article is excellent, and it mirrors the way things work for my agency. There is a a lot of outlandish and misinformed opinion regarding use of force on the internet and from some of the people on this website. It would be wise to find out what the facts are, particularly from someone that uses those facts on a daily basis. You may disagree with the constitutionality of those facts, but the bottom line is that the Supreme Court makes the final call, and that is the only opinion that law enforcement is going to follow.
To correct one of my statements above-It should be disobeying a “lawful” order, not unlawful.
Norfolk VA Police Officer Seneca Darden was shot and killed by another LEO in 2006. The officer never came off desk duty. FWIW Darden looked and acted like a street thug, and in my opinion the other LEO was on the good side of the shoot. AFAIK he was never charged.
Sure thing, cop, lets ask Randy Weaver about your preciuos rules of engagement. That worked out so well. As I recall the Government LOST IN COURT. I am sure you are wracked by guilt ever day when you go home about the excessive use of force you see daily but do nothing to stop it. Cops don’t rat out other cops, right? The blue wall and all that garbage. You probably don’t care about the USC ,it’s rights and privileges afforded to the common citizen.You have your seniority,and pension to be worried about. I unfortunately have the sorry privilege of having to work with LEOs on a daily basis as a forensic technician and have heard the lies, and seen the abuses wrought by too many LEOs at all levels. Every case I work usually ends with the same BS statement by some idiot cop and his pals, “Play the game, tech, and you will be OK,if not , we know where you live.” Tell me Bystander,where are you and your upstanding cohorts to protect the process? I can tell you where, turning a blind eye. I have sworn out affidavits too many times against dirty cops for tampering with evidence and procedure and NOTHING GETS DONE. Ever. Go ahead and get mad.
So Chris 45, are you staying in such a corrupt system to protect your pension and bennies?
Whatsa matter jwm? Didn’t like my earlier reply ?
Chris 45. You admit to being part of a corrupt system where the rules and laws are routinely broken. You have great anger and contempt for the cops you work with. So why are you still working there?
Is the paycheck and benefits package too good for you? You bring up Bystander’s seniority and pension, what about yours?
You state that you have the sorry right and privilige to work with these criminals but you haven’t left that corrupt system have you?
Well I did reply jwm, but for whatever reason it didn’t take. Oh well
Chris 45 – As I recall, the government lost the case against Weaver (with the exception of the failure to appear), and they had to pay penalties as well. However, that was not what I was referencing, and it misses the point. I suggest asking Weaver about doing things differently because he would likely tell you that losing his loved ones was not worth it when he could have complied. If he had, his family members would still be alive.
Where use of force is involved, it shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone that innocent people can get hurt. Weaver found that out the hard way, and others should learn from his mistakes.
The lesson I took away from Ruby Ridge and Waco was that cops, especially federal cops, are rabid dogs, to be avoided when possible and eradicated when necessary. And to teach myself to cease thinking of them as human, so I will not hesitate when that necessary time comes.
There was a comment earlier about taking on the police so that their kids or grand kids don’t have to, but those people should find Randy Weaver and ask him if he would do things differently if he had the chance.
And you have the nerve to think of yourself as an American.
How I pity you.
Bystander’s response is spot on. A couple of things to add:
1) The consequences of using force are always on my mind. That is why the best UOF scenario is one where you are able to use no force at all. Smiling, being polite and treating everyone with respect will cut the number of UOF incidents in half, provided you still convey preparedness.
2) A good shoot will never get you in trouble. If it does, you need to switch agencies/departments.
3) Any cop who fears being videotaped should take a tactical pause and reevaluate the way they’re doing business.
4) I have a job to do. If I am disrupting/dismantling a criminal organization to the point where they target me specifically then I’d say I’m doing a really good job. As a rule though, I don’t drop below condition yellow. I was bathrobe-carrying before Robert Farago made it sexy.
A good shoot will never get you in trouble.
According to the recent FBI report, all shoots are good shoots…
I think Johannes Mehserle would disagree with you.
At last! We have the answer to Monty Python’s query:” What do we do if someone attacks us with a pointy stick?”.
Seriously, thanks”Bob”. That was an excellent overview of the force continuum.
I don’t get why Bob is getting his [email protected] broken here. All he did was report the facts. I didn’t see him claiming the right to hassle people for no reason. He just tried to tell what happens when situation go sideways. I understand that we don’t like the message, but killing the messenger is stupid.
Here’s what he said: if you fight an officer, you’re headed for trouble. You may be willing to accept the trouble and turn a minor stop into a kill or be killed situation, but if you’re not, then don’t. Is that so hard to understand?
I know that you guys are fearsome keyboard commandos, having destroyed many of the walking dead in your video games and all, but don’t you want to know what you’re really up against? Or would you prefer to remain pig-ignorant?
pig-norant? Adj. Being unaware of possible police action.
Because he seems to think he’s coming from a position of moral authority, when he is in fact the enemy of liberty in America.
Jason, I didn’t get the sense that he felt that all LEO activity was moral or superior. I did get the sense that he tries to do the right thing.
Or, just maybe he’s the enemy of anarchy. It depends on your perspective, does it not? From my perspective, old Bob holds the moral high ground.
Ralph, some folks read into statements of fact to be offended. To add flavor to their day.
Because obviously bringing no strings or inflection attached information makes you bad if you are a LEO and know what goes on. I figured that out after a couple go rounds.
Cop=Fascist Pig and that gets trolled. Not a procedure I like but apparently explaining the Continuum by which you can criminally charge a cop if it goes to court is not useful. At all. And Bob should quit his job. Apparently.
Maybe you don’t get the last laugh for him kicking out your teeth for laughing in his face. Read what Bob said and getting your teeth kicked out for a perjorative is not allowable. So you saw a cop break the law on you and get criminal and civil action openings. But this would require actually reading the post. Not the comments. Not the fact that Bob said “defeat is not an option for the agent.” as the moral. But that Bob wants you to know that there are rules YOU can exploit if things go south. He doesn’t advise any particular course of action. Just what the Continuum says.
I would like to thank Bob for setting this information out here. It could be vital to someone here some day and is a good reference.
Or more Getstapo propaganda. Whichever.
Rules. Bullshit cool-aide for the masses. From what I’ve seen, Bob’s alleged “rules” are just guidelines for how to phrase the report so as to get away with whatever criminal act the LEO or FLEA committed. I wouldn’t trust a LEO/FLEA – ANY LEO/FLEA – as far as I could shotput a fully loaded Greyhound Bus. So far as I’m concerned, all FLEAs should be treated in a manner consistent with that accorded to the insects that their acronym is spelled like. I am utterly and totally convinced that a rebellion/revolution/insurrection is coming and when (not if) it does everyone wearing the uniform of a LEO or FLEA will convert to targets. Those shiny badges will make very nice aim points, indeed.
Thanks for the article. Very informative.
I hope all the guys who want to “pile on” understand that whether they agree or not this is reality. Any LEO is always going to ratchet up the level of force until they achieve compliance.
Don’t be dumb – in this country they aren’t going to “disappear” you. Play nice, take the fifth. Retain the best attorney you can find. Beat them in court.
There is nothing in this world that is more expensive than paying an attorney to lose. Have a good one.
“Don’t be dumb – in this country they aren’t going to “disappear” you for now.”
There, I fixed it for ya. The NDAA explicitly allows for this. It is becoming increasingly clear that the government that is in place is not the entity that ultimately makes the big decisions. There is a turf war going on between the Pentagon, the NSA, the CIA, and whoever else has a bone in that fight. We’re just all stuck in the middle.
While I agree it is probably safer and better to fight in court, a normal person will most likely still lose there. The courts are always on the LEO’s side, they always take their side. Even if the LEO lies the court will take their side. If the LEO was in the wrong the court will most likely take their side. If you somehow have ironclad proof that you are fully 100% in the right, it is still very iffy they will take your side. Lawyers and DAs just agree to the “going rate” plea deals over lunch together to close the case as soon as possible and move to the next case. It’s not like TV where they fight tooth and nail over every case. They don’t care about winning or losing, they care about getting the case closed as quickly as possible and moving on to the next. This is besides the LEO’s friends “convincing” you to drop the case. What has many upset here is that the whole system is designed to be stacked against citizens no matter who is in the right or wrong. While I am glad Bob explained this UOF Continuum, it’s also pretty disheartening as this can be abrused very easily. I understand LEOs need some sort of guideline but how it is set up just makes it seem no matter what, a citizen is just screwed.
What if the LEO, for whatever reason is the first to escalates and does so wrongly, what do you do? If you resist you are screwed. If you try to take the matter to court later you are probably still screwed. Alot of LEOs still believe testilying isn’t corruption but yet another way to “get the job done.” It is often hard to convict an LEO of following the blue code or other forms of corruption because LEOs are protected by defense of immunity, which is an exemption from penalties and burdens that the law generally places on other citizens, the second class citizens. There was one study that showed excessive use of force was the crime most commonly shielded by the blue code. Sadly this UOF Continuum only shows if one ever gets caught up in such a situation regardless of guilt, the only thing to do is obey with demands and hope for the best. Sort of like obeying an armed robber hoping he doesn’t kill you anyway. That you can try the courts afterward but will probably just be a waste of one’s time and money (court costs). There is no real happy ending, just a potential for a less sad ending. It is enough to make any non LEO sick.
Spot on. Also it cracks me up how all these folks say just go to court and get justice there. As if the folks who have the time and money to do that get harrased by these thugs. They know who they can get away with trampling constitution and who they cant get away with.
LEO’s total reliance of the courts must be related to the fact that they rarely lose their arguments in the good old boy’s club, and because they don’t have to spend a dime on lawyers and court fees. For the rest of us, the deck is stacked – and even if we “win” after grueling months or years of weary hearings, we have a new boatload of debt to look forward to. And no, I’ve never been arrested or experienced it for myself, but I’ve known more than one friend that has gone through “the system” on trumped up charges, plagued by corrupt, lying LEO’s & prosecutors. The whole system is befuddled BS. State and federal agents of any kind are not worthy of trust. Avoid them and the corrupt court system like the plague.
I contested a traffic ticket once. Watched the cop lie his a$$ off under oath and the judge barely listen to me. I’ve just paid them since. System is stacked against the peasants.
Been there done that. A lot more than once.
Contesting traffic tickets isn’t profitable for the state. You have been properly conditioned to pay on demand and are now in compliance. Not that anyone can blame you. If you keep doing silly things like demanding that you be presumed innocent is bucking the system. Obviously anyone not complying is guilty of something, dontchyaknow. The Holy High and Divine +Supreme Court+ (bless thier holy name) says so, and holy submission is the heart of the law.
Comply and be at peace. Go and sin no more.
I am convinced that there should be a special entrance to every courthouse specifically for all criminal defendants. Over the door should be the following inscription:
“Abandon hope, all ye who enter here.”
U.S. prosecutors enjoy a 97% conviction rate. Neither they nor the LEOs and FLEAs who do their dirty work give a tinker’s damn about the rights of their nominal bosses.
But the courts are our salvation. Resistance is futile.
Though I don’t like a lot about, I would guess, the FBI’s UOF doctrine. I thank you for taking the time to write this.
You could have just posted
“You will respect our authori-tie, or else”
Your bullshit is so ingrained you don’t even realize you are refering to us as subjects and not citizens.
Thanks for the information. I am concerned that non-threatening behavior is called compliant. That indicates a kind of attitude that law enforcement takes toward people. Civil would be a better term.
You don’t have to be civil to be compliant.
I couldn’t agree more. The continuum could do with a level below compliance. It could be defined by a lack of reasonable suspicion, which would alter the interaction and mindset at that level.
IF there is lack of reasonable suspicion…what was the reason for the interaction in the first place? The whole LEO/citizen contact, and this continuum is based on the idea that the LEO has reasonable articulable suspicion or probable cause to stop you in the first place?
Lots of everyday situations. Most commonly, a person who has approached and engaged the FLEA, not the other way around. Other examples could be consensual encounters, speaking to a witness, etc.
By the way, the continuum is not necessarily based on suspicion. If a random person attacks the FLEA, he/she will respond accordingly. They aren’t going to refrain from self-defense because the person wasn’t suspected of a crime at the time of the attack.
I’m partially with you there, and I see what you’re saying. But compliant is complaint…call it civilized, call it whatever you want…same thing…consensual or not…semantics maybe?
And attacking a cop IS in fact a CRIMINAL ACT, which puts it into the realm of probable cause, which puts it on the force continuum. But I see what you’re saying: if someone attacks me as a citizen I’m going to respond accordingly too, regardless of law or use of force continuum. I’m gonna survive!
SOME LEOs will stop you just to do a fishing expedition with you… to see what they can turn up.
“Bob”, I just wanted to thank you for putting this up. I noticed that you’re taking a lot of $#!& for it, but I wanted to let you know that 95% of us appreciate the info.
I will add that many police in the US have risked their careers to standup against politicians who have attempted to legislate the 2nd amendment out of existence. Most police know that they could be RIF’ed at any time because of budget cuts or whatever, and they would lose their credentials to carry concealed. trust me, there are a lot of police who support he 2nd amendment.
You so funny. Cops are obsessed with their benefits and their pensions. Those come first. Paying lip service to the second amendment is nice. When the SHTF, cops are choosing pensions, not worrying about the peasants and firearms.
Now that is a bunch of crap. If that were true, there should have been hundreds of thousands of Policemen standing with gun owners in 1993 and 1994. There should have been NO Policemen willing to be used as props when Klinton signed the Brady Law and the AWB. But they showed up when ordered to and nodded and smiled. They could have said “No, Boss! I ain’t doin’ it!”, but they didn’t.
As disheartened as I was to see the officers who flanked Clinton when he passed the draconian measures in the 1990’s, I was equally heartened to see the majority of our state’s county sheriffs stand up against the latest round of gun-control laws passed by our Democratically-controlled government. (More details here: http://kdvr.com/2013/05/16/majority-of-colorado-sheriffs-bringing-lawsuit-against-gun-control-laws/). Their federal lawsuit in defense of citizens’ 2A rights has caused them quite a bit of grief in the press and among many of their constituents and could be career-limiting. I know one of these sheriffs personally and he stated that he and the others filing the lawsuit consider it their duty to protect the rights of the citizens of their counties, even if it costs them their jobs.
On a side note, the Colorado Senate majority leader who told his colleagues to ignore the wishes of their constituents, to not break ranks but vote for the gun control bills has just been given notice that he will be the first lawmaker in Colorado state history to be subject to a recall election (http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_23486124/organizers-submit-sufficient-signatures-recall-sen-john-morse).
I take it you’re not part of the FBI, which considers a woman holding a baby enough of a threat that their sniper killed Vicki Weaver. Or the ATF, which considered a compound full of unarmed kids brainwashed by religious zealots enough of a threat that they burned Waco to the ground. Or the Secret Service, which routinely arrests people for saying things about the president that I won’t even mention, for fear of arrest. Or the SEC that arrests people for being too successful in the stock market, while ignoring real criminals like Bernie Madoff, because they’re too busy watching porn. Or the IRS that arrests people and steals their property, because they have the temerity to believe in self-ownership. Or the NSA which spies on us in blatant violation of the Bill of Rights. Or the CIA which meddles with the internal politics of foreign countries for its corporatist allies, causing blowback. Maybe you’re from DHS, which considers gun owners, military veterans, Ron Paul supporters, and people who want to follow the constitution potential terrorists.
I’ve got it! You’re from the agency that polices those agencies, punishing those out of control feds. Oh wait…there is no such agency.
Read Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution. Unless you investigate counterfeiting at the treasury, fight piracy at the coast guard, or work for INS, your job is a blatant violation of the Constitution.
As for “keeping us safe”. My risk of getting killed by a private sector criminal is pretty minimal. My risk of getting killed by a foreign invader is effectively zero. But apparently my risk of getting killed by a Fed is high enough that you feel the need to write this article. Yeah, I feel “safe” with you around.
They killed those kids at Waco because, in the words of Janet Reno, “babies were being beaten.”
I agree with Ralph all the way. Bob lays it out in Dick and Jane language and it is all common sense. Actions have consequences , be prepared for those consequences and don’t have your head in rectal defilade placed in a situation of having to deal with Fed law enforcement.
You forgot how people should deal with LEO’s when they live in Boston for example and are forced at gun point to exit their home while the unconstitutional LEO’s take over your home temporarily.
If you work for the gubment you are the enemy. Gubment is out of control and needs to be CRUSHED!!!
I’ve heard this line before — but not from anybody in Boston.
Oh, I know. They’re just sheeple.
There was a mislabeled video on YouTube: So now the entire country thinks the Boston PD went all storm-trooper. Clearly Bob’s post was intended to focus on educating people who profess an interest in carrying firearms, not as a doorway to debating the local Bar Association or MC Club on the fine points of reasonable suspicion. I have issues with the manner in which confidential informants are used, and the zealous prosecution of cannabis crime simply because it’s easy, but I have no problem with Bob’s description. In fact it’s a good vanilla description probably of benefit to at least a few comment writers.
Generally, you comply with all requests of LEO, even when they are actually wrong. There is no justification for physical resistance.
Your sole recourse is a Civil Suit after the fact.
So unless you are prepared to have a felony conviction or die, dont resist.
Pick your battles wisely
How disrespectful is it to everyone that died for our freedom over the last 300+ years to imply that their life was worth your freedom, but your life isn’t worth being protecting freedom for our children’s children.
Maybe it’s time to shut off the Kardashian’s, Dave.
“Pick your battles wisely”
Just because you think you’re in the moral right to resist when an officer asks you questions/to hand over your weapon/step out of the car doesn’t mean you need to. If you feel you’re rights are being violated because the cop asks you to put down your AR15 while he asks you a few questions, sue him later. Getting belligerent isn’t going to solve anything. Being super polite if you haven’t done anything wrong generally will. And if not, you can sue later.
There have been innumerable instances over the last decade where legal OCers were harassed. Most complied, filed suit, and accepted hush money to go away, rumored to be around $10,000 – $15,000 per incident. That seems like fair compensation for a few minutes of being inconvenienced and having your rights violated.
Tell your bullshizzle to the people of New Orleans after Katrina.
I think we are seeing just how far the government, especially at the federal level has lost the trust of it’s citizens. After all the abuses and steamrolling of our rights and liberties, it’s hard to put our faith in “We’re from the government and we’re here to help you.”
Yet, right now, here in corrupt Illinois, about 20% of our county States Attorneys have stated publicly that they either will not, or the more politically timid among them, probably will not, continue to enforce UUW charges in the state of legal murkiness that currently exists here over concealed carry. And I expect that number to continue to grow.
I WANT guys in uniforms and squads patrolling my city. I want them to be willing to protect women against abusive spouses. I want them to stop drunk drivers that threaten the safety of my loved ones. I want them to arrest robbers, burglars, and thieves. I’ve done all that. And, yes, my use of force continuum was about the same as outlined. Only difference, my states attorney thought the occasional punch in the mouth was something that cops should just shrug off as part of the job.
Those of you so hateful against the cops – Are you going to do those things? I’ve gone solo into a hot domestic and rolled on the kitchen floor with the perp, who’d already punched me in the mouth as I crossed the threshold. As I’m trying to cuff him, the same women who greeted me with, “Help, he’s killing me!” is now screaming, “Don’t hurt him!” while hanging from my neck in the company of her three kids. And I’m trying to watch the block of knives on the counter.
You wanta do it?
I am a libertarian. But, we need somebody to help enforce the social contract.
We desperately need to rein ’em in. Clip their wings. Remind them of that whole “To protect and serve” that used to be emblazoned on the side of every squad. Do away with all these laws that make criminals of us all. Do away with all the victimless crime laws. Do away with most of the alphabet agencies.
But we will always need cops. Cops who are citizens first, not this paramilitary, faceless, formless army that we are learning to loath with every blustering badge heavy bully we see on Youtube. (Tyler, Tx – “We don’t have to follow the law!”) But we need ’em.
Look at Illinois again. So far about 20% of our States Attorney’s and Sheriffs have chosen to follow the constitution instead of State Law. Look at the CSPOA – Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association. Sherrifs who voted UNANYMOUSLY not to enforce unconstitutional laws.
Don’t let your distrust of government and your hatred for the tyrants among them blind you to the fact that there are still some who wear the badge honorably.
@Bruce B, well said and clearly heartfelt. The problem is that we can’t tell the good cops from the bad cops. The bad apples have spoiled the whole bunch. So we don’t trust any of them. Can’t.
Now, Ralph…take that statement you just made and apply it from the cops standpoint…think about it for a minute. THEY can’t tell us good citizens from the bad ones sometimes either. There are plenty of bad apples out here too, so they don’t trust any of us either. Here we are…
No, Killercod, it’s not that easy. I don’t have a badge, a club, a taser, a radio and a thousand friends backing me up. I don’t have the force of law behind me no matter what I do. I sure don’t have a union.
And when was the last time a “civilian” planted evidence or rammed a plunger handle up a cop’s @ss?
50% of all humans are no damned good, with or without badges. We need a system that works, despite our knowledge of this fact. I think we’re doing pretty well in this country at the front lines. Now in Congress, that’s a different story. And the percentage on K Street is 95.
When a cop rolls up on someone, he has no idea if he is a bad guy or good guy. But, spending a lot of time with bad guys many who wish to harm him, he assumes that everyone is bad and many LEO treat everyone as if they are a crook. Which lead to Joe Q Public. The crap that is happening in D.C., the many bad LEO and often PD Administration that allows some LEO to get away with things they should not, the bad LEO has made many look at ALL LEO in a bad light.
There is an old Italian saying that goes “The good will always suffer because of the bad”
My comments have been consistent although sometimes with different words — The bad LEO paint all LEO as bad and we have the same issue, we have NO idea whom the good or bad LEO happen to be.
Add to this, an ever more oppressive government at all levels and LEO are the enforcement arm of the government, the two are seen one in the same. One the oppressor and the other the enforcement arm of the oppressor.
The problem we have is that many good people remain silent and do not act.
There is a social contract and right now it is broken. There is too much happening with the government and the many rights it is trying to take away that no one in the government nor in LE can be trusted.
There are many who trust the government without question, there are some that say, trust and verify, myself, I don’t trust it at all and its actions tell me just how much I should trust it or not.
There are no more police. There are only militarized troops that say “protect and serve” but act like “trample and imprison.”
I serve as my own security – as do other members of my family. The police can stay the f*ck away – we’ve got it covered.
“I WANT guys in uniforms and squads patrolling my city. I want them to be willing to protect women against abusive spouses. I want them to stop drunk drivers that threaten the safety of my loved ones. I want them to arrest robbers, burglars, and thieves. I’ve done all that. And, yes, my use of force continuum was about the same as outlined. Only difference, my states attorney thought the occasional punch in the mouth was something that cops should just shrug off as part of the job.
Those of you so hateful against the cops – Are you going to do those things?….But we will always need cops.”
Do we now?
Articles from the Albuquerque 1975 police strike:
“Rate of Crime Believed Lower In Albuquergue’s Police Strike”
“‘Burglars would rather confront a policeman than irate citizen. A policeman is trained to use restraint. A citizen is not,’ said Captain Tom Chappell.”
The so called “justice” system in the U.S.A. is not the solution to crime; it is part of the problem. We, the people, don’t need you police nearly as much as you think.
Several weeks ago I drove to a small town near my hometown looking for ammunition. Driving slow looking for the store, trying not to obstruct traffic, just trying to be careful on strange streets, I came to a school with no cars in the lot (it was late in the afternoon), where the streets were kind of confusing. Anyway, as I look to my right I notice a stop sign moving past my door. There were no cars in the cross lanes, thank goodness and only one car on the other side of the street. When I looked in my rear view mirror, you guessed it, the undercover car turned on it’s lights, turned around and pulled me over.
I follow the normal instructions. Pulled over, put my window down, put both hand on the wheel, and waited. I did have my 9mm with me. A Missouri Highway Patrol officer walked up to my window, looking in, and started talking with me. Asking if I noticed the sign, which I told him I did and explained how I didn’t notice it in time to stop, expecting to get a ticket. We chatted more. He didn’t ask for my license, but did suggest I pay a little more attention to my driving. I even asked him where the gun store was and he told me.
I was polite, as was he, no ticket was given, found where the gun store was and actually had a nice chat.
I have received speeding tickets in the past from MO Highway Patrol, but always found the very professional and friendly. Other states have not been as friendly but most (not all) have been very professional. I know a lot of you don’t like law enforcement, but in general, almost all I have ever had dealings with have been professional.
It is not a matter of “like” or “not like”. Many of us simply do not trust them and we must be vigilant. They are people, like all people, some are good, some are bad and some are some place in between. The issue is they wield a lot of power that can be easily abused.
For instance, the state PD in CT continues to fight to prevent citizens from video taping them regardless of past SCOTUS cases. I am told, if I have nothing to hide to cooperate, I say if they are doing nothing wrong, then they should not mind being video taped. I DO NOT TRUST THEM do to the fact they are fighting to stop video tapping.
Otherwise, off duty, there are several LEO I have met at the range, at competition and at a bar a frequent. Many are fine people, their ability to abuse their authority is what I am always vigilant about.
I wonder how many of the people that are bashing Bob have actually seen LEOs in action other than the few idiot ones on TV and stories on the Internet. I know some LEOs do crappy things, but I have been on many ride-alongs with cops, and I have to say that I am still amazed of how good of a job they did. They took more crap from drunk and drugged up idiots than I would have. One drunk guy was acting so badly that I wanted to kick his ass, and they didn’t even give him a ticket or anything.
I am not saying every LEO is a saint, but someone has to enforce the rules and the ones I have see have done a pretty good job. As Red Foreman says, “if we didn’t have rules, we would be a bunch of tree climbing crap flingers.”
Bob, thank you for that lesson. It confirms most of what I already assumed, and honestly I don’t disagree with it. To those screaming “traitor”! Here’s the thing, as Bob mentioned 99% of the guys he works with are good guys. In a small percentage of scenarios they are being ordered to do things that don’t sound quite right. I know you’ll all start talking about Nazi’s, but there is a serious difference between doing an unconstitutional house to house searce and turning on the gas in the showers. If anything when it comes to Boston, take it up with the residents that were applauding the police state actions. They’re the one’s that are voting your rights away and they seem happy to be living under martial law to obtain a little temporary security in exchange for their essential liberties. “Bob” and the other personnel there were just doing their job to the best of their ability, and yes, “following orders” may not be an excuse, but again, take it up with Congress and the voters that put them there. I’m pretty sure if the order were to open fire on the civilians rather than simply clear the houses their answer would have been no, at least for 99+% of them.
In my dealings with police I have always been uber polite. Very infrequently has this not worked well to my advantage. Only once in dozens of stops did the officer cross any lines. In every event I had in fact done something wrong, speeding typically. Most often the encounter ended with a warning. I had friends that would get all tough, they weren’t gonna let “some pig” push them around. They always got really big tickets from “that prick”, or outright ended up spending the night as a guest of the department.
Consider your own SA and conflict resolution. Police can’t avoid stupid places or stupid people as its their job to interact with those, so their only hope is to avoid stupid things, which pretty much means don’t get shot, an don’t overreact and shoot someone they shouldn’t. They’ve got wives and kids to go home to just like you. They don’t need shit from someone proving a point. Think things aren’t going to go right for you? Pull a videocamera. That’s your best and should be the ONLY defense you use against a member of law enforcement. You’ll get your day in court, the video will be your best witness to the events.
Are there bad cops, agents, etc? Sure. But almost every one I knew didn’t end up collecting their pensions. John Connolly comes to mind as a very public example. On the local level I knew several, about half ended up doing time for one thing or another and the other half were fired.
We speak of the day the tyranical government comes for us. It hasn’t happened yet. Could it? Well, we do seem to be headed that way. However, when it actually does come down to confiscation, concetration camps, etc. most of these guys will be the ones standing next to you. We tend to speak of police in the abstract, but consider the one’s you actually know. Are they really evil menaces hell bent on locking up everyone?
Short version is none of us want to fight the next Civil War. Don’t like the way things are going? Great, me either. The Founders gave us a framework to change that. Call your reps, and even more importantly, talk to people on the other side. Politely! Calling someone an ignorant A$$ hat ends the discussion. You’re not going to chenge their mind tomorrow. Keep up the relationship and slowly work to nudge them to your way of thinking.
What town are you in, Kev? I’m in North Attleboro and the cops here are okay.
I grew up in Salem, MA, so my dealings with Police were in Salem, Peabody and Lynn mostly. Cops that certainly had their share of troublemakers to deal with, and I had my moments. That and the random Trooper on the highway. I’m much older now and haven’t done stupid things in stupid places with stupid people in well over a decade…
I’ve also known quite a few cops on a personal level and still do, especially now, lots of cops are gun guys/gals. They’re all also just peopleto paint them with a single brush is as bad as any other form of categorical thinking.
Well, Ralph, they seem to have handled Aaron Hernandez with professionalism.
You kind of indirectly addressed the problem. Yeah they are just guys doing a thankless job, the institutions train them to be confrontational and arrogant. Part of the problem lies in the basic lack of training in investigative techniques, and a reliance on tricks to persuade an ignorant public into relinquishing their rights. Part of the problem is us citizens remaining ignorant and allowing it. I am happy for you that the cops where you live are always polite and respectful, I have lived in a lot of places all over this country and have never had a leo treat me with respect or any form of politeness. I am always a yes sir no sir “subject” but I do know my rights and that alone provokes individuals to anger because they are not trained to deal with it.
Have you ever tried treating them respectfully and deferentially first?
Doesn’t always work if they expect strict obedience.
A Free Man doesn’t owe them deference nor obeisance.
Decency and Courtesy, on the other hand would go a long way on both sides. Each is a Two Way street.
Yes every time.
“I’m pretty sure if the order were to open fire on the civilians rather than simply clear the houses their answer would have been no, at least for 99+% of them.”
Tell that to the Branch Davidians…
I’m pretty sure if the order were to open fire on the civilians rather than simply clear the houses their answer would have been no, at least for 99+% of them.
FYI, please do not consult an attorney about use of force. None of us have any freaking clue what we are talking about. Yeah, we’re good at bs, but seriously, we know nothing. Not even Ralph. (No offense, Ralph.) If an attorney advises you what to do, run. Even the most hard core criminal defense attorney is guessing. (But, I can draw up a really good employee handbook for you. Just call 1-800-……….)
Speak for yourself and not for me, okay smart guy?
Said with all due respect, Mr. Ralph. I guess it was a bit harsh to our profession. But give me an inch on this one? Too many variables, and I would never want to take responsibility for anyone’s decisions under the heat of the moment.
Spoken like a gentleman. Go and sin no more my son.
I am not going to comment on where I went to law school or how I did at whatever law school I went to. I could be a complete moron with a knowledge of the law no better than a street cop in Peoria, and I probably am. (And I apologize to my brother-in-law who is a street cop in Peoria.). But to those who rely on small town attorneys, some are awesome and some are not. Some are more brilliant than the $600/hr. attorneys in the biggest city in your state. Others are not. But, please, dear God, learn the law yourself. The commentators on this blog are smart. Use those smarts. Use your own smarts.
God save your majesty!
I thank you, good people—there shall be no money; all shall eat and drink on my score, and I will apparel them all in one livery, that they may agree like brothers, and worship me their lord.
The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers.
Nay, that I mean to do.
JeffR, if you’re a licensed attorney you’ve just brazenly violated a key ethical rule, so I assume you are not a licensed attorney. You went through the same “no lawyer knows…” bit in the discussion of the Salinas v. Texas case. I have an extremely precise knowledge of the law governing the use of force in Pennsylvania, whether by the general public or agents of the state. Find a new shtick, please.
Hey, there are good attorneys out there. Many of them know little about some subjects until they study up on them. Besides, justice is more important than the law.
Thanks for being so polite, Roping. I’ll get my legal advice elsewhere.
JeffR: I wasn’t giving you legal advice. I was, however, suggesting you shouldn’t give others the advice not to get legal advice. Call me, if you will, over-solicitous of my fellow comment-writers’ well-being.
I don’t have an issue with being compliant with federal (or state or local for that matter) officers. What I have an issue with is being entrapped by an overzealous ATF agent who tells me something is legal to persuade me to do something illegal then slaps the cuffs on me and gives me a bogus court date so when I don’t show up on time they come and shoot my wife in the head and take out my dog for good measure.
Cops shooting someone who’s beating them to the point of losing consciousness doesn’t bother me.
they come and shoot my wife in the head and take out my dog for good measure
And don’t forget killing your son and wounding your best friend. BTW, the best friend actually did kill one of the officers. He was acquitted and then paid almost $400,000 by the Feds for his injuries.
Yea, I didn’t feel compelled to go to Wikipedia to make sure I had all my facts straight, so I went with the short version.
Anyhoo, the point is, as long as the federal agents are doing their jobs in accordance with the constitution as the US Supreme Court sees it I don’t think I’d have a problem. But what do you do when the agents are clearly overstepping their authority? What do you do when it’s kill or be killed and your opponent is a federal agent?
Of course a gun grabbing liberal would counter with, “Oh that’ll never happen!”
You have a right to self defense. The legal odds will be stacked against you in court, so you’ll need Gerry Spence. In which case you’d better get into trouble soon, since he’s 84.
I believe Kevin Harris returned fire in self defense, after the Feds shot Sam Weaver, then ran away from the confrontation. Yes?
Upon further reflection I believe this not some anonymous fibee, but rather a propaganda piece by whichever office at the Fbi monitors this extremist website. It actually looks like a warning the more I think about it. IE: Its all fine and dandy for you folks to discuss your rights, but resist us and this is what will happen to you. If I am incorrect, please enlighten me by identifying yourself “Bob” and the office you work for. Cant win the prize if you are anonymous. Also I am a little disgusted with TTAG for even publishing it.
“Extremist website?” What agency are you from?
I was being glib.
Kyle, I’m trying out this new pyramid shaped tin foil hat, they say it reflects the zombie rays much better than the old pudding bowl design…?
@Killercod: fvcking hilarious.
Hopefully the boys in blues know the rules as well.
“Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer’s life if necessary.
Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306. This premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: “Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed.”
“An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).
“One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).
You get the idea. You better have your ducks in a row. Your warrant ought be valid and applied appropriately and your suspicion better be reasonable. Yes this isn’t S stuff but there is precedent. All that aside, i jut boils down to an officer acting outside his authority has no protections the uniform might provide him when he is within those bounds.
Not the law in every state. Maybe not the law in the cited states. And be careful with old Federal cases unless you’ve Shepardized them thoroughly. They may not be precedential in the Federal system or binding on States.
I’m not going to Shep the cases for you. But if you do, I’d like to know of the results. Post ’em!
I guess it doesn’t matter. I stand on the logic that an officer acting out of his authority is not an officer and I can treat him like any thug assaulting me. Break down a door on a no-knock…good luck with that.
I suggest another guide. How not to be a jack booted thug. Quit the ATF/CBP/DEA/ICE/FBI/DHS/USMS/USSS/FPS yada yada yada. Stop enforcing unconstitutional laws and get on the side of liberty. If you are libertarian as you proclaim, exercise some civil disobedience and quit feeding the monster that oppresses you. This mirror is burning my eyes right now as I find my way out to a more honorable career. Hopefully it is burning yours as well ‘Bob.’
Good luck with that…
Thanks Bob, always nice to know what the UOF is for Federal Agents.
Thanks for making an interesting read.
As for the title, avoiding getting shot is easy – I read the earlier story on the FBI report about how often they actually hit their target, and figure I am safe as long as I am about 5 yards away! 🙂
I understand a lot of these policies are meant to keep the FLEO safe because of their higher probability of being in a situation which could end their life. Information provided in this article is nothing new, but presented in a different format. I appreciate the time taken to write this. Thanks for that.
Now, the scary part or the required part depending on which side you are are:
1. There are institutional policies and trainings in place training every FLEA to think that their assessment is correct & hence act according to it. This is problematic (See below).
2. “If you’ve been paying attention, you also noticed that the Agent is always authorized to exceed a subject’s level of force by one degree in order to gain control.”
The above statement is scary in many ways if always true. This essentially takes away our ability to defend ourself. If I speak/argue with the FLEA, he can now escalate this to physical altercation. If I defend that, now, he is justified in using lethal force.
You lose either way.
The whole article can be summed up in two lines.
YOUR COMPLIANCE IS REQUESTED. THIS REQUEST IS NOT REALLY A REQUEST.
“The above statement is scary in many ways if always true. This essentially takes away our ability to defend ourself. If I speak/argue with the FLEA, he can now escalate this to physical altercation. If I defend that, now, he is justified in using lethal force.”
Negative. Please re-read my writing in further detail.
@Bob: Maybe, you should read your article again and I am not saying that in a condescending tone. A significant number of interactions with LEOs end in a non-confrontation because the subject decides to totally comply with the officer. Any small deviation from that almost always guarantees a bad outcome for the subject no matter what. This is not a good thing. If the LEO arrives at a bad judgement, then he/she should be the one to suffer the consequences. You are tacitly approving otherwise in your article.
Just look at the comments your article generated and it’s not just anti establishment drivel being spouted. If you cannot see that, well, that’s a shame.
Your arguments depend on the logic-leap that arguing = resistance. You yourself define deviation as “If I speak/argue with the FLEA, he can now escalate this to physical altercation.” Yet nothing in my article ever stated anything of the kind. In fact, every single example of resistance I showcased was PHYSICAL resistance. I never, ever stated that arguing, disagreeing, speaking, yelling, cussing or discussing were forms of non-compliance. They are not. That is your own incorrect assumption, which is why I asked you to re-read. If an action doesn’t qualify as resistant/assaultive/deadly force then the agent loses the ability to use any tool or technique outside of the “compliant” phase of the continuum. Period.
So, if you follow the rules I have given logically, without inserting false data as you have done, then you cannot logically arrive at the following conclusion: “If I speak/argue with the FLEA, he can now escalate this to physical altercation. If I defend that, now, he is justified in using lethal force.” Furthermore, your statement to Ralph: “Wouldn’t that assure that the natural outcome then would be an escalation of the situation every time? Esp if both the agent and the subject can meet with a little more force. Who will be the “attacker” in that scenario?” is solely reliant on the premise that the subject in question has made the decision(s) to escalate, not the LEO. If you cannot see that, well, THAT’S a shame.
People “deviate,” are rude to me, argue with me, disagree with me and slander me pretty often in the course of my duties. Any other LEO on here will tell you the same thing; oftentimes criminals don’t actually self-identify as such. So, when they get questioned or detained, I become the bad guy in their eyes and they become the victim. Never mind the criminal activity.
Now, if an agent makes a bad judgment call about UOF then that is on them. They will almost certainly pay for it either civilly, criminally or administratively. If you, srikanth m, suffer any consequences from that poor-decision making then that is tragic but statistically anomalous. There are scenarios where LEOs do terrible things and make awful decisions and their departments still go to bat for them. However those scenarios are EXCEEDINLY rare, in my experience. Some may say it’s crazy-talk to use those rare examples as an anecdotal justification for assuming every LEO can’t be trusted. But I couldn’t possibly comment.
“If you’ve been paying attention, you also noticed that the Agent is always authorized to exceed a subject’s level of force by one degree in order to gain control.”
The above statement is scary in many ways if always true.
@srikanth m, when it comes to “civilian” self defense, many states have the same rule. It’s called “+1.” It means that the defender is entitled to meet force with a little more force than the attacker is applying.
Wouldn’t that assure that the natural outcome then would be an escalation of the situation every time? Esp if both the agent and the subject can meet with a little more force. Who will be the “attacker” in that scenario?
Let’s say 5% of the trees in a forest are sentient and kill hikers. Let’s say that 95% of the trees are also sentient but never defend the hikers. What does that say about the forest?
Squiggles, that says you’ve done too many shrooms and spent too much time with Frodo and gang.
That says the Forrest is in Mexico.
Dirty filthy hobbitzes…stole my precious!
Let’s say 95% of the trees in a forest are sentient and defend hikers. Let’s say that 4.5% of the trees are also sentient but never defend the hikers. Let’s say that .5% of the trees are sentient and kill hikers. What does that say about the forest?
It says I’m giving up hiking.
It’s not neccessary to give up hiking Ralph. Just take a chain saw with you next time.
Bob made a point in his post that I glossed over until just now. The part about an officer being on the ground losing the fight to a suspect, having his head banged on the ground and using deadly force to end the attack. Sounds familiar doesn’t it? Zimmerman.
That’s exactly what I was thinking.
Zimmerman wasn’t a cop.
Yep, he is only a second class citizen.
I thought the same thing. Only highly trained LEOs get a pass on that obscure technicality. Commoners don’t know about it and get persecuted.
Remember, that the police were not going to charge Zimmerman until the politicians stepped in and ordered them to. Can’t really blame the cops on that one because it was politics, plain and simple. Whether or not you agree with the charges, it’s clear that the police had no choice but to arrest Zimmerman once he was charged as they would any suspect. I’m mad at the politicians on that one, and don’t take this one defense of the police to mean that I have some overbearing love for the police. I don’t. I think in many ways they are the standing army the Founding Fathers warned us about.
Thanks for presenting this info. It’s useful to see this from the FLEA point of view. I appreciate what you do for us. You know what I fear the most at the moment? That I comply with orders, and my dogs will still get shot. This happened to a friend of mine years ago in another town as his sweet Lab frolicked in the woods. A local cop killed the dog, right in front of my friend, because the dog ran up to the officer to play. That was a long time ago, but we hear similar stories of this all over the country right now, of LEO’s shooting dogs that are tied up, or cowering in the bathroom. The police in my suburban village don’t do that, but I hope the city, state and fed guys I meet have the same restraint.
Also, about 10-20 years ago, we had several of sex offenders on the city force, so when I got pulled over for speeding one time, I only cracked my window enough to hand over my license.
I know every human group has bad apples, and 99.9% of the time I really appreciate what y’all do for us.
Bob, I’d like to ask, what is your agency’s policy on dogs? Obviously, some dogs are very dangerous and need to be shot, but does your agency provide guidance on that?
Agent discretion, based on reasonable belief that the dog will inflict serious injury. Training on recognizing and responding appropriately to canine behavior is something all LEOs need. Sadly, few ever receive that training.
The indignation people are responding with is the residue of the American spirit of freedom and independence.
By itself, the rules given here are all perfectly reasonable. It is rational to need control over criminals. The real problem is not these rules but the fact that we all know that there are too many laws that make too many of us casual and often unknowing criminals. Too many of our people are behind bars.
The rational side of me agrees that these rules are good but the patriot side of me rankles that it is far too easy to become subject to them. I don’t consider myself a subject of anyone.
Maybe I missed it, but where does the right to resist an unlawful arrest fit in this UOF Continuum?
It doesn’t law enforcement agencies stopped operating on the innocent until proven guilty thing a long time ago. Resistance of the subjects is justification for escalation of force, the safety of the protected class is more important than the rights or safety of the subjects.
I reckon so….
So every time I encounter a FLEA I have a 5% chance of dealing with an armed psychotic thug with full legal authority to kill me if he feels like it. Okay. Got it.
Negative. Please read my submission in its entirety. Thanks.
Read the article twice before responding. I believe that if a FLEA killed me by ignoring UOF, he would be covered for by the agency and the courts. Waco, Ruby Ridge, Fast and Furious, NSA scandal, IRS scandal, countless ATF outrages prove one law for Feds, different law for peasants. UOF is meaningless window dressing that Feds ignore at their whim. Feds already ignore the Constitution and a host of laws. They will ignore UOF too.
Actually, hillbilly, and with all due respect to Bob, you’re odds are 50-50.
Roger Ralph 🙂 The percentage of bad apples is certainly up for debate and open to interpretation. However, the assertion that the FLEA has “full legal authority to kill me if he feels like it” represents a diliberate misinterpretation of UOF. As do many other comments thus far, as LC Judas has indicated. But it’s all good. I knew I would need to put on a pair of kevlar boxer shorts when I submitted this 🙂
Actually, I’d have to agree with your assessment of the percentage of problem children in law enforcement generally. It was the same in the military, and also among lawyers, doctors, teachers, and ministers and 7/11 clerks. The vast majority are doing the best the can. Then there’s the psychotic few who are determined to wreak havoc, maybe just because they can. They’re the ones who make the news.
The only thing that amazes me about all this is that its safe for any LEO to do their job. If this police state crap keeps going the way it is it might not be. I mean the anti-gunners really believe they are going to take away our guns. You may not hear a lot of legitimate sources say that (I have been told by an elected representative that’s all the gun grabbers in Albany, NY talk about on the floor) but count how many times the communists in control have said that’s not what they want to do and then have gone and proposed more onerous laws leading ultimately, I believe, toward confiscation. When they finally get their way its not going to be a good time to be a cop.
Just two issues:
Fortunately – most WORKING local and even state LEO’s know that we can not protect people and are pretty much an after the matter fact. Therefore, it is totally OK by us and very much recommended that all honest poeple fight to keep their rights to be armed.
Unfortunately – Federal officers are not, for the most part, respected by local and even state LE. And I don’t mean just “not getting along”. There are FAR more than 5 percenter problems. Maybe the most crucial issue is that FLEAS are WAY too much affected by their political bosses, the top one being the president and his regime. So, in our present state of affairs, I would expect things to get much worse.
I don’t really have a problem with anything on the continuum. The only problem I have is that you’re “working quite hard to keep you safe”.
The only thing any law enforcement agency should do is investigate crimes and arrest criminals. The second amendment allows the well regulated militia to take care of the rest. If an LEO is trying to arrest someone they believe to be a criminal, even if they’re wrong, the use of force outlined above seems reasonable, but when LEO’s are given the authority to walk around and act like sidewalk babysitters with guns, stopping whoever they like, then it becomes a problem.
And yes Ralph, the people in Boston were sheeple, or rational adults that knew that resistance to tyranny at that moment was not a fight they could win.
Maybe the people of Boston were just tired of waiting for you to show up, tough guy.
What “Bob” fails to realize is that we are well aware of the tactics of SRTs serving warrants, and you can take that UOF matrix and set it on fire, for all the truth it portrays.
They hit your door with a ram, toss in a flashbang, enter and shoot just about anything that moves, including non-threatening pets.
I don’t know why “Bob” is trying to sell this shit, but I ain’t buying it.
Funny photo. If you took the “FBI” off their chest in the photo – they look just like terrorists!
There are good cops and bad cops. This article raises my ire because it begins with a certain sanctimoniousness, suggesting that only a very tiny percentage of the people who are given authority by the law to hassle people and kill them if they resist, are bad apples. In my experience, the percentage is significantly higher. I don’t think anybody would have a problem with cops (or FLEAs, or insert acronym/police force of choice) if they generally conducted themselves in a polite manner, as one civilian does to another. They might have a certain authority to act against lawbreakers, but they are not any different in that regard than a civilian -the difference is that they are paid by the state to deal with those problems full-time, whereas the ordinary civilian is not, and so therefore generally does not unless he is personally concerned. Many of them, though, sadly go out of their way to be as difficult as possible, slavishly and officiously following asinine policy manuals, and generally leaving a bad taste in the mouth. A little of this experience goes a long way, and many of us have had more than a little of it if we’ve had occasion to have any contact at all with police officers in our lives.
Sadly, when I see a cop, I don’t think of Officer Joe who’s a swell guy and helps keep our town safe, I think of Officer [email protected] who drives around in his heavily-tinted police cruiser filling the town coffers by pulling people over for insignificant traffic infringements, while three blocks away there are drug deals going on in broad daylight, and property getting vandalized on a nightly basis. I see officers who are more than happy to enrich the town at the expense of mostly law-abiding citizens who violate, often unwittingly, petty ordinances, while seemingly never able to seriously reduce real crimes, despite their high paychecks and taxpayer-funded equipment.
When an article dismisses the Officer [email protected] just described as being practically nonexistent, while simultaneously implying to me that he and his fellows have a righteous sanction from the government to stop me and order me about for any reason they see fit, and that effective resistance to that will be seen as sufficient grounds to kill me…. well, it may be the unfortunate reality of our situation today, but it’s not a very palatable and pleasant thought. Nobody likes to think that their lives and freedom are dependent on the whim of the boys in blue -not when the boys in blue habitually do so little to build a good reputation for themselves, and so much to build a bad one.
I’m reminded of the Boulder cop brought into Denver to help the DPD cover the 2008 Democratic National Convention.
He’s fat. He’s obnoxious. He’s videoed trying to push a major network reporter into a heavily trafficked street in downtown Denver.
Or the local PD officer who, after stopping a teenager who’d stolen a car and was joyriding around town, shot the kid in the chest while the kid was unarmed and not threatening.
Exactly. E Jones. I am always struck by the arrogance of law enforcement officers that try and preach to you how they are doing you a favor and teaching you about safety, hey assclown I just watched you commit a host of offended and now you lecture me about safety? That gives you lots of credibility.
Ahh but if they actually did their job and got the real criminals off the street then they would lose that job of harassing the innocent…The people couldn’t be scared into giving them what they want if there wasn’t any criminals around..
TO: Bob. et al.
What about a bahnahna? Or any other form of fresh fruit?
P.S. In truth it looks like if anybody were to pick up nearly anything, the FLEA has the right to use deadly force.
Not sure if fresh fruit has the rockwell hardness of any of the devices I mentioned as examples. More likely, if you were to pull out a banana during an altercation the only thing that would ensue would be hilarity.
Would this be a bad time to ask and see if anyone would be interested to go to Africa and help build a new country? Keep in mind it is a long-term plan.
I understand there is a program recruiting new settlers for Mars…..
Yet no real plan for terraforming…. I am currently good.
Wow, the signal to noise ratio in the comments is much higher than usual.
For the record, I’ve had very similar UOF training. I think they even used the same chart. ‘Bob’ did a fine job of explaining the federal UOF continum in an easy to understand way, and we should all thank him for it. C’mon, say it with me: “Thank you, Bob.”
If you want to get political, take it up with your congressman. If you want to get technical about how your rights were violated by the jack-booted thug, take it up with your lawyer.
If you want to get physical with a federal LEO on the side of the road, they will probably shoot you. Personally, I prefer my odds in court.
Just be aware your odds in court are only slightly better at best. They are stacked against you as well.
“If you want to get political, take it up with your congressman. If you want to get technical about how your rights were violated by the jack-booted thug, take it up with your lawyer.”
That worked well in Nazi Germany too.
I don’t think we’ve quite reached that point yet.
2.3 million Americans in jail, most for nothing? Au contraire. It’s just that our tyranny is familiar to us, so we don’t notice it so much.
I worked in a prison Patrick. To steal a line from Richard Pryor,”Thank God we got prisons.”
Good article, and thanks for having the guts to share. I pray that LEOs respect the constitution, and that they in turn are worthy of respect. However, this world is far from perfect. The reality is that LEOs and the Feds need accountability, and need it badly. We could do with a whole lot less government, but that isn’t happening, which is part of the reason that tempers are hot.
+1. But what exactly happens if take the progressive mentality that “everybody” works for the government… then you get exactly what you have in the NE…
The proof of this post being drivel is in the comments. The vast majority of people in the US will never come within 10 feet of a federal agent for any reason. Your purpose in this post (other than to fill space) is what? Stick to topics you might actually know something and can write interestingly. Oh, wait, that ain’t much. And as for “Bob” thanks for the laughs.
I beg to differ with your assertion “The vast majority of people in the US will never come within 10 feet of a federal agent for any reason”, as my own experience and observations indicate otherwise. On no fewer than six occasions I have been that close to armed uniformed DHS agents around Denver’s public transportation system during the course of my travels and on many more occasions I plass close to Mint Police or Federal Protective Services.
And that is not even considering the Federal police presence during the DNC five years ago or during subsequent POTUS visits.
Thanks, you proved my assertion. The Federal officers you mentioned are not “agents.” The distinction is important and the training is a bit different. The larger point is simply this post is crap.
Looking at this UOF continuum, really the only logical way to deal with ANY Ruling Oligarch Storm Trooper is to kill them immediately on contact.
Kinda like roaches.
5 to 1
One doesn’t have to be a “sadistic meglomanic” to violently enforce the dictates of the state, but it helps. As long as people believe that the state has legitimacy (it doesn’t: first dictum of anarchism. Read Larken Rose’ at http://www.larkenrose.com/ for a primer or hear his audio reports at https://www.youtube.com/user/LarkenRose ), we will continue to experience violent confrontation with the misguided author who believes he functions for a sacrosanct and legitimate agency.
Yessir massa. I be a good little nigger and Sambo do what you sez!
Probably the best way to avoid getting killed or murdered by Fed LE Agents is to become one.
Better to stand with the devil than to be in his path.
Thanks for the very informative post.
Ignore the nitwits around here.
Thanks for your service!
“Someone” from MAIG must have laid out some cash for ThinkProgress memo’d KosKids and DU trolls to come stalk TTAG.
At least 3-4x the number of insulting trash posts, than we have seen in past on the typical article about LEOs.
Or its the full moon.
Getting tiresome, anyway.
Are the burkas these guys are wearing the result of diversity training?
I have to wonder what the real reason for the post was. Was he really trying to “educate us” . He could easily have said we have the right to stop and detain you for any reason any time and any action by you real or perceived by us gives us the right to escalate the physicality of the encounter up to the use of deadly force. You need to just prostrate yourself to us allow us to to question you, search your person or property and respond with a polite attitude and thank us for for fu….g with you. If we choose to do this with or without probable cause and if we execute these actions with excessive force or exceed the boundaries of the law tough shit for you. We hope you have the financial resources to hire a good lawyer and come to our home court where WE are the ones who are innocent until you prove us guilty and then you can only hope there will be more than just a slap on the wrist handed out. I wonder how many LEO’s fed, state or local would interact with the public with the same arrogance if there was a group monitoring them , not a court of law or a review board but a vigilante type like the innocence project who would review abuse cases and meter out their own justice biblical type eye for an eye retribution. The fact that the courts do not punish leo’s when they do overstep their boundaries is why there is so much vehemence toward them. Why do we as taxpaying citizens have to have to put up with a double standard with different consequences for our misdeeds compared to politicians and law enforcement. I took this post as a threat letting us know they can do what they want when they want. See here is the legal justification for how we can escalate our use of force and right here it says if you do not do whatever I say to or I perceive any action or non action as a threat I can move up this continuum. Resistance is futile rape is inevitable so just lay there and enjoy your federal government at work. I’m sure he would like to see some terroristic responses so” they” have cause to come “talk” to you I hear they need to collect some guns to give to some “freedom” fighters in syria.
Humans are the top predators on this planet. Beware when you mess with them. Good advise for the authorities and everybody else.
This continuum of force might make sense from the LEO point of view, but it makes no sense at all from his victim’s point of view: any intermediate level of resistance leaves you worse off than you would have been if you’d simply abjectly complied at the outset. Bottom line, either submit to whatever assaults he is going to visit on you, or kill the LEO immediately.
Of course that latter apparently also leaves you worse off because ultimately you will die, but if you have something like terminal cancer or are just old, what’s the problem? And you get the satisfaction of taking one or more bastards with you when you die, thus ridding the world that survives you of a worthless pest.
Lessons to be learned… there is but two courses 1]submit… (which our ‘libertarian’ author recommends) on the assumption in a NDAA society you will get legal redress (see “Gulag Archipelago” for how that works out)… or 2] you can Resist… by which I mean as soon as you know this is going south… suppressed .45s, shovels, and Lime… if that freaks you out… well then, now you know how all those people got into boxcars.
BTW Bob, since you are libertarian perhaps you can point out where the Non-Aggression Principle is in this force continuum you are using? Or if it’s not there, why a libertarian would interact with others in a manner inconsistent with NAP?
If you are wondering about the reception your article is getting – maybe it’s a bit of a surprise for you – well that’s what 2.3 million Americans in jail gets you. That’s what “it’s the law” attitude (AKA “I vas only followink orders!”) from cops get you. It’s what cops sticking their nose in everybody’s business but their own get you. That’s what laws passed by lawless violent bastards in the legislature, laws regulating every aspect of human life, get you. People get tired of that crap.
Don’t like it? Start acting like a decent human being.
I believe that just based on the number of responses that Bob has won this contest. 200+ and counting. This 1 has legs.
Probably doing pretty good on clicks, too. It’d be interesting to see the numbers on this post compared to some standard content.
Maybe ‘Bob’ should write a regular column, eh? Might be good for business.
The entire debate around constitutionality of actions by FLEAs skips the foundational issue, that is, there is ZERO constitutional authority for ANY federal law enforcement agency.
They are all ILLEGITIMATE from the beginning.
Good to know. Reinforces my rules of LEO encounters:
1) Avoid cops if at all possible. This can usually be done by impeccable practice of non-aggression, driving the speed limit, stopping completely at signs and lights, and staying in my lane except where marked safe to pass. When that stops being the case, this rule will change to “shoot on sight and go directly to 3.”
2) Decide within the first few seconds whether to comply with the officer or kill the beast. This depends largely on whether it acts like an officer or a beast, and whether I think I have a good chance of successful extermination.
3) If the latter, do so, and then go to war on its entire criminal organization. This will likely amount to a death penalty for me. Hey. We all have to die sometime.
I hear a lot of cops say that they’re going to go home at the end of their shift. Guess what? So am I. Don’t try to stop me, and we’ll get along fine. I consider imprisonment to be much worse than death.
I follow Jeff Cooper’s gun safety rules, in particular, rule 2: never cover anything with your muzzle that you don’t intend to destroy. That means if you point your gun at me, I assume your intention is to kill me, and I will respond appropriately. You’d better pay close attention. You won’t get more than one lapse. And I will never forgive.
I would trust cops a lot more if you did a better job of keeping your own in line. I expect a cop who commits a crime on duty to go before a grand jury. If indicted, to a jury of his peers. If convicted, to prison, preferably in gen pop. Just like the rest of us. Sovereign immunity rightly breeds lynch mobs. I expect good cops to ensure that the bad ones are prosecuted, or to take care of the problem themselves, with extreme prejudice.
The reason cops don’t ever back down is that their primary responsibility is to make a bunch of statutes, written by men, for largely their own personal gain, appear to be law. They ain’t. They never were. They never will be. Stop treating consensual behavior as crime, honor your oath, meaning fully understand it, deeply ruminate about the constitutionality of every statute you are ordered to enforce, and look the other way when you encounter illegal but non-criminal activity (no victim, no criminal intent, no crime), and you’ll regain the trust and respect that your profession used to have.
I know. That’s all easy to say behind a keyboard in an air-conditioned room. Hence my primary reliance on rule number 1.
So this flea Bob says” Do this, we can kill you. Don’t do this , we can kill you. Say this, we can kill you. Don’t say this we can kill you.” Gee, seems like we are seeing history repeat itself. This black suited thug is rather cavalier with the rights of the average law abiding citizen, it seems to me. Apparently he and his fellow fleas will stomp your head in if you so much as ask a question. Instead of protecting the citizens he swore to protect he probably likes giving them a back room tune up and laughing the whole time, knowing full well he and his buddies will never be held accountable for their actions. I have seen it first hand and “Bob” and his cronies disgust me to no end. The problem , as I see it, is these mutts have forgotten their Oath, their Honor and any resemblance to Integrity, professional or otherwise. This is My opinion and Mine only.
“Say this, we can kill you. Don’t say this we can kill you”
“Apparently he and his fellow fleas will stomp your head in if you so much as ask a question”
I believe I was quite clear that speech, no matter how profane, is not an escalation of force.
Tell Viki Weaver about your use of force continuum, fascist.
Yes, yes, we get it.
Submit in all cases or die.
Thanks for the rundown.
I think the percentages in this article are far too generous to LEOs. Far too many murders happen at the hands of LEOs to anymore believe in the whole “bad apples” thing.
Further, if you support a violation of any Constitutional rights, in any circumstances (seems LEOs are 4th amendment ignorant these days), you are an oathbreaker. A covenant-breaker. A tool of tyranny.
Justify it any way you like; there it is.
Dealing with cops is like dealing with any other street gang member. You do what you have to do to keep them from killing you. Abuse of power is rampant. Abuse of steroids is rampant. Not all cops are bad. However, those that say they are the good ones, yet stand by and watch the bad ones operate are even worse.
“Bob” has just outlined the nature and intent of State Employed Goons. One might sum it up like this:
“You will submit to me, because I am your Master and I may kill you if I please.”
Isn’t that about right?
You hear it said, “And if they violate your rights, you can take legal action against them and their agency.”
That is if you are not deceased because the FedGoon decided that he FELT LIKE you assaulted him and decided to “escalate”.
US v. Bad Elk is correct. It is lawful and within the natural right of a free man, and the law is very clear on this, to resist arrest or any other action of a State Employed Goon if, before anything else happens, the Goon uses more force than is necessary.
Why don’t you just submit and comply with your ass whipping and your broken bones? You can always go to court and beg for redress… right?
Not if you’re dead you can’t.
Bob, your 5%, 3% and 1%, while noteworthy, is nowhere near the truth.
If the vast majority of FedGoons were such good men, men of honor, men or sterling character, then Waco would never have happened.
If more than half of FedGoons were such stand up good guys, the truth would have been told by whistle blowers and dissenters who had resigned in disgust as the fictional narrative was being told on CNN and their fellow FedGoons were stomping around on the hot ashes of what had, moments earlier, been very much alive men, women and children.
I lost my illusion many years ago. People seek out positions of power over other people, not because they are benevolent wise men, but because they are arrogant power mongering control freaks who cannot not exist on a level playing field.
Bob, why don’t you go back to the locker room , or your office and stroke each others’ egos and tell each other what super-duper good guys you are. Brag to each other how you clobbered that “perp” who refused to roll over and piss on himself in fear of your imminent awesomeness Sell it to your own kind, Bob. I ain’t buying your snake oil today.
State Employed Goons, you want to know the nature of the problem? Look in the God Damned mirror.
Never mind, you don’t want to know.
I believe “bob” is instructing on what POLICY is, and what HE has taught to other officers. This isn’t exactly a list of “what your rights are”. As far as my experience goes, “bob” speaks the truth about officer training and likely behavior, 95% of the time.
As I read this: Remain compliant with any LE you meet, cooperate, attempt to understand what led to the stop and how you can assist to end the stop, up until the moment that you believe that they are not going to allow you to live. At that moment, attempt to kill them as quickly as possible before they close the OODA loop and their training (likely far superior to yours), equipment (likely superior to yours) and physical position (likely superior- behind standing to your seated) equal your death or serious injury. I see no continuum at all for the subject of a stop. This is the same way I would handle someone who wants to speak to me on the street, attempt a theft, that turns into a robbery or an attempted kidnapping. I have to assume that the line is somewhere between an attempted theft and a robbery where I escalate to lethal force as fast as I can, not waiting to be put in a trunk unconscious or at gunpoint.
Pick up good knowledge whenever you can, especially from experts.
Well “Bob”, I’ll simply remind you that the Supreme Court has determined that it is legal to use lethal force to stop a violation of my Civil Rights.
Have a great weekend.
I read these comments laughing – when I get over to the States and if stopped, I put my hand out THEN answer the WHY questions… You people seem to forget that they can shoot you without punishment, dead man tells no tales.
Just my 2c/
The very fact that law enforcement has to hide behind masks says something about the actions you’re taking against the Americans. You know what you’re doing isn’t right and you feel threatened by the citizenry should your face be exposed for your thug tactics. The majority of the public will tolerate your nazi style tactics but a minority will not permit anymore Randy Weaver’s or Branch Davidian’s. That minority out numbers you .
I did not select or provide that photo.
I’m sorry but every time I look at the OUF graphic I cant help but think of the Gay Pride flag. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Just Saying. Did J. Edgar Hoover design that?
Sorry caps lock was on and i am running a custom font that looked like normal font.
Though bob did a great job of describing how they can legally violate your rights, Attack you physically or kill you legally if it falls into their current agenda but bob is only giving part of the picture. and i have listed some common sense information that most people do not know.
OK first things first.
1) FBi, Dea, ATF, and all the other Alphabet soups Federal LEA’S HAVE NO AUTHORITY UNLESS GRANTED to them BY THE LOCAL sheriff, .
2) No MATTER WHAT TYPE OF LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER THEY MAY BE They CANNOT EVER, “”ever”” REACH INTO YOUR VEHICLE AT ANY TIME PERIOD or put their hands on your person or your effect’s. .. Unless you are arrested or that leo has articulated the reason for the stop. this falls under a broad justification called probable cause.
3) ANOTHER THING BOB FAILED TO MENTION IS THE SIMPLE FACT IS that CITIZENS <NO MATTER HOW DETACHED THEIR EDUCATION HAS MADE THEM IN re; TO CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS we retain MORE AUTHORITY THAN Than ANY FEDERALIZED lea'S PERIOD when it pertains to state laws.
4) all THE LAWS THESE SUPPOSED alphabet LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES ENFORCE ARE BASED UPON the federal side of "MARITIME LAW", last TIME I CHECKED THEY CANNOT PERFORM A TERRY STOP ON A ROAD WHILE YOU ARE IN A BOAT, HELL THEY CANNOT ENFORCE ANY MOVING VIOLATIONS PERIOD, THEIR SCOPE OF AUTHORITY IS SPECIFICALLY FEDERAL CRIMES. THEY HAVE NO REAL AUTHORITY TO DO ANYTHING UNLESS THEY HAVE A WARRANT AND A SHERIFF IS PRESENT DURING THE STOP ENOUGH SAID.
5) BOB IS GIVING INSIGHT TO JUST HOW BAD THE SYSTEM IS FUXXORED UP IN-INADVERTENTLY.
Here is what i got from this article..
1> A FED PULLS YOU OVER WITHOUT A WARRANT OR SHERIFF, HE IS IN THE WRONG.
2> A FED THAT TRIES TO PERFORM A TERRY STOP OUTSIDE OF THEIR SCOPE OF AUTHORITIES IS IN THE WRONG.
3> A FED THAT USURPS THE LOCAL SHERIFFS AUTHORITY IS IN THE WRONG.
4> FOR A FED TO DO A TERRY STOP , YOU HAVE TO BE A SUSPECT, OR IN THE COMMISSION OF A FEDERAL CRIME.<AND NOT A LOCAL CRIME BECAUSE FLEA'S HAVE ZERO AUTHORITY UNLESS GRANTED TO THEM BY A SHERIFF OR LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY!! .
BUT THAT DOESN’T STOP THEM FROM SIDE STEPPING INTO THE STATES AFFAIRS>. AND IF THEY REFUSE TO BRING IN THE LOCAL SHERIFF after you request one to be present , THEY ARE CLEARLY OPERATING OUTSIDE THEIR SCOPE OF AUTHORITY.
6> ANOTHER little TID BIT IF INFORMATION. WHEN YOU ARE STOPPED BY THE FED YOU RETAIN THE RIGHT TO HAVE A LOCAL SHERIFF PRESENT DURING THE STOP, WHY DO YOU ASK? because feds have no authority enforcing the state or local laws, also if a sheriff is present your chances of a civil rights violation drops to a considerably lower %’age .
YOU WILL ALWAYS RETAIN YOUR CIVIL RIGHTS NO MATTER HOW MUCH BOB AND HIS COHORTS WILL BULLY YOU TO THINK OTHER WISE !
THE SHERIFF IS THE HIGHEST LAW OF THE LAND, HE AND HE ALONE CAN CHOOSE TO INCARCERATE YOU AFTER YOU HAVE BEEN ARRESTED OR LET YOU GO, FEDERAL AGENTS
DO NOT HAVE THIS AUTHORITY BECAUSE THEY ARE APPOINTED AND NOT SWORN IN.
THE SHERIFF IS THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF LAW ENFORCEMENT IN THEIR AOR or . A SHERIFF CAN LEGALLY TELL all of the FDLEA’s TO GO POUND SAND.
HE CAN ALLOW OR REVOKE FDLEA’s AUTHORITY ON A WHIM it doesn’t even have justifiable.
SIMPLE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THIS IS THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN BOB WAS NEGLECTING TO TALK ABOUT.
BOB and other would have you believe that feds are the end of the line when it comes to CIVIL LIBERTIES..
I will end with this.:
thank you bob for your insight i respect you for your time and effort you did a lot of dis-informed voters a solid by putting this out there.
Easy answer. Kill them before they kill you. That should apply to anyone attempting violence on you.
I’ll address a small part of what “Bob” says:
“– 1% of the time I am downright uncomfortable with the constitutionality of a technique my Agency utilizes. However, that practice has been blessed by the U.S. Supreme Court, so any internal criticism from an Agent would be about as popular as Alona Tal at a PLO party.”
Bob is a get-along kinda guy. Doesn’t make waves. He wants to get his pension. He does what SCOTUS allows him to do. To do less would make him unpopular with the other agents. Popularity with the other agents is important to Bob. Techniques not ruled on by SCOTUS are ok because they are not prohibited. Civil forfeiture is a legal technique because courts have said so. Anyone with large amounts of cash must be arrested and the cash seized because only drug dealers have large amounts of cash. Honest citizens must prove a negative to get their money back. Honest citizens are presumed guilty. Bob is ok with civil forfeiture. As a FLEA, Bob is ok with lying because SCOTUS has said lying is ok for FLEAs. It is a crime for citizens to lie to a FLEA. Bob is happy Martha Stewart went to prison for lying to the FBI, even though the FBI couldn’t prove insider trading. Bob thinks people should only put in their bodies what the government has approved. Milk must be pasteurized says the USDA. Bob is ok arresting an Amish farmer for selling raw milk. Bob keeps quiet in his agency, because to call out wrong-doing would be unpopular. Aggressive agents get promoted in Bob’s unit. Bob thinks he’s an ok guy because others have approved his actions. Bob is ok with federal prosecutors harassing people into the poor house because it is not Bob’s agency. Bob thinks doing what he is allowed to do, must be moral. If the government said it is ok, it must be moral. Sometimes other FLEAs do bad things. Bob wants to be popular.
“Bob is a get-along kinda guy. Doesn’t make waves.”
Correct. All other written statements are pseudo-intellectual, smug assumptions.
You are correct. They are assumptions. And you did not deny that they were all true. Ad hominem attack = Fail.
Pop quiz hot shot: An officer in uniform is raping a woman. Can a civilian use deadly force to get him to stop? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/26/sergio-alvarez-sacramento_n_2766856.html
In case Bob has a different take…
Of course a civilian CAN use deadly force. The real question is whether a civilian has legal authority to use deadly force, and the answer is yes, absolutely. And I’m sorry nobody stopped Sergio Alverez.
Though the courts may have ruled otherwise, in which case they’re horribly wrong. The Supreme Court assumed for themselves the last word in legal matters. The Constitution includes no such authority. Fortunately, juries can nullify the law to free any defendant, no matter how previous similar cases have been adjudicated. If only judges would remind them of that.
I want you all to stop and consider for a moment a question I heard asked the other day…Would you take the indignities heaped upon you by law enforcement if that person was a civilian doing the deed…Hell no you wouldn’t…So in essence they can get away with anything as long as they are wearing a badge…I like how he says be compliant notice that is exactly what criminals want you to be when they are assaulting you…Criminals and Cops are one in the same the only difference is you can go to jail for a long time for killing the Cop who’s assaulting you…If you asked that Agent what you should do if a thug is assaulting you he would probably tell you to defend yourself…When will he see that’s the way we see him when we have done nothing wrong and he’s assaulting us…Sad that he won’t wake up til he’s being hung for crimes against humanity all the while saying I was just doing my job..It didn’t work for those who used that excuse before and it won’t again…
We need to look at this article for what it is. It’s law enforcement doctrine. Doctrine that will be used and doctrine that will be presented as exhibit A in any resulting trials. Doctrine that will be accepted as “right and reasonable” by a judge and most juries.
Ignore the percentages of cops out there that are good and bad. This is what they are taught and what is expected by their agencies.
The conventional wisdom over the years has stated that it makes no sense to argue with someone who has the legal authority and means to kill you. The relief mechanism was always thought to be someone higher in the cops chain of command, or even in a court of law (civil or criminal).
The conventional wisdom no longer carries as much weight as it used to. Review boards in police departments rarely if ever come down on the side of the citizen, even in the face of visual and audio evidence. The cop is virtually always found to be correct.
Our court system is no longer accessible to the average citizen.
If you can find a lawyer who will take your criminal case and attack the system that he is a member of, bring your checkbook. You’ll send thousands up front and even more if it goes to a trial.
Civil court is even worse. Here in SC I was told by a judge that unless I was an attorney, I could not plead my case. A civil case against my business, and of which I was named individually as well as the business. I didn’t have the money for an attorney, so needless to say, I lost.
At the end of the day, we all need to accept this valuable information for what it is….. information. Knowing their continuum of force is useful to know how far you can go in your resistance. The truth is the truth. Whether it’s a good doctrine or based on any reasonable or legal foundation is beside the point at the time of confrontation.
Knowing what can and will happen, all of us have to decide how we will deal with it.
Before the confrontation, you can lobby our politicians to change the laws. You can post info on blogs, organize rallies, you name it. You might be successful, and this usually involves no risk of harm to you.
Once contact is made, we have to decide if we are going to go along with it or confront it.
If you choose to confront it, you need to have planned for and decided to execute your own response continuum. This is a serious decision and as the author points out, it will more than likely end badly for you. You may win the battle at the point of the confrontation, but their army is bigger than yours. The system doesn’t take confrontation well. And or by the way, they probably know who you are from your license plate, driver’s license, etc. If this is your decision, be prepared to have to live with it and do it knowingly.
Or perhaps option three is to take good notes. I’m assuming that everyone is building their own intel files on who the good guys are, who the bad guys are and who is uncommitted (maybe good, maybe bad). Your personal confrontation (and the execution of your response continuum) may be the shot heard around the world, but probably not.
No Fort Sumters.
So, let me make sure I understand:
It’s an appropriate use of force for an “LEO” to use a baton against an assaultive, but not definitively lethal threat.
However, if an individual uses that same baton against an assaultive officer, it’s now a lethal threat that can be responded to with lethal violence?
That is correct. The FLEA has legal constraints for exactly how and when the baton may be used. The FLEA is then trained to use the baton within those constraints (i.e. where and how I may strike). An Agent may reasonably believe that a bad guy assaulting him/her with the same baton will not operate that device within the same constraints. As such, it becomes a deadly force weapon in the hands of a bad guy.
While the popular theme amongst my article’s commentators is of an Agent using these UOF rules to dominate and enslave, in reality nothing could be further from the truth. Neither I, nor my partners, are walking into Starbucks and going all “escalation of force” over everyone’s behinds. I deal with HARDENED criminals. These UOF rules were created over the last few decades for the express purpose of bringing LEO’s UOF back under the constraints of the constitution. FOR EXAMPLE:
My father is an engineer. He went to school in the 1970s in a major American city. One night outside his frat house he was drunkenly urinating into a bush. Good idea? No. Par for the course? Sure. Boys will be boys. The city PD rolled up, threw him into the back of a police van, and proceeded beat the tar out of him for an hour. Then they dropped him off back at his frat house. What is THAT about? Violation of the 4th? Absolutely. The argument can be made that a few more of his constitutional rights were violated also.
LEOs during the early and mid 20th century were, by and large, operating under the “whatever I feel like doing” UOF doctrine. Whether you agree with it or not, we are living in a golden age of Police restraint. It wasn’t until 1974’s Tennessee Vs Garner that LEOs actually stopped SHOOTING you simply for fleeing. This continuum was specifically designed afterwards with the fourth amendment in mind IOT stop those types of shenanigans.
On TTAG we often assert that firearms laws cannot be made to the lowest common denominator, e.g. don’t pass civilian disarmament laws to try and prevent statistically unlikely mass shootings. Yet that same logic is not being equally applied here. For every ONE time a bad cop uses this continuum (or their department’s version of it) to violate a person’s liberties, it is used 10,000 times to arrest, control or defend against an actual criminal. There are a lot of buzz words being used to describe this continuum, with the common claim being that an Agent MIGHT or COULD abuse it to violate peoples’ rights. Yet those same claimants fail to do the same math that they laboriously apply to mass shootings and gun control. When was the last time a FLEA stopped you or anyone you knoe without cause and proceeded to use an inappropriate level of force? The odds are never, because such a nightmarish scenario is even less likely than a mass shooting. Furthermore, for all the bile being shot around, no one in the comments section so far has had a single suggestion for how they would actually change this continuum. Let’s say I, Agent Bob, perform the terry stop mentioned in my article on a suspected human trafficker. It plays out exactly the way I described. What would you have me do differently? How is any part of that continuum unreasonable? A stop is made, based on articulable suspicion that laws are being violated. The driver (hint, not me) then decides to escalate the situation. What is the problem? We don’t want criminals running roughshod over citizens by passing gun control laws, yet it is fine for criminals to steamroll LEOs? The same people that you, the tax payer, have empowered to detect, arrest and imprison the wolves amongst us? I am not trying to be snarky but I would actually love for the folks crying tyranny and leveling death threats against FLEAs in response to my article to enlighten me. Precisely what UOF rules, excluding sovereign-citizenesque fantasies, would those commentators apply to an Agent in that same situation?
A baton is a lethal threat, no matter who wields it. But then, so is a foot, or a hand, if the operator knows how to use it. A fancy costume on the attacker doesn’t change that one wit. The aggressor is the bad guy.
The reason that the rules are different for restricting the actions of law enforcement than for public access to firearms is because the former assault and kidnap suspected criminals under color of law. The rules need to be severely slanted towards avoiding the arrest of innocents, whereas the right of the people to keep and bear arms, without infringement of any kind, is explicitly included in the US Constitution. That right is one of the many that LEOs are supposedly tasked to protect and defend.
I have never empowered anyone to detect, arrest, and imprison the wolves amongst us. I was not even asked for my opinion. Law enforcement, and the extortion (taxation) that pays for it, were imposed on me against my will. Given a choice, I would choose the total elimination of all law enforcement agencies, with the possible exception of county sheriffs, funded by voluntary subscriptions from their constituents.
“Bob” is slightly off on his percentages, once again it is the 99% who give the others a bad name.
We are all helots now.
Thanks Bob, more proof of a federal government out of control. The founders set everything thing in place so things like this wouldn’t happen. But we let it happen, hidden in plain sight. This once great nation has become everything that they and countless others despised. God, help us.
“95% of the time I feel pretty good about what my particular agency does”
In that case, 90% of the time you’re deluding yourself. Probably easier than getting an honest job.
A perfectly reasonable and nicely done explanation of the use of force continuum.
All you keyboard commandos simmer down with your tough guys BS.
As an avid reader of this forum, I pass it along to my shooting/training group, which consists almost entirely of current and retired LEOs and LEO trainers like myself, members of various federal alphabet agencies, and active military. Several of the federal guys chimed in and advised that this model is no longer taught in most federal agencies, and in some cases, has not been for 7-8 years.
I am not affiliated with any federal agency, and therefore cannot comment one way or the other. Overall, I found it informative, and good advice.
what about “tu quoque”? (Latin for “you too”)
You say: “The Agent has every reason to believe that you’re going to kill them at that point. Unconsciousness = inability to defend one’s self and therefore unconsciousness = death”
I have the same opinion. If I am hit with a nightstick ar anything else or handcuffed that means I am unable to defend myself and I can be killed with impunity.
Therefore such behaviour Shows to me that you are trying to kill me and I want to live. Therefore I will try to survive.
And besides: All LEO should know the law down to the last line and if they do not know it they should get advice BEFORE they act on wrong Information.
And last but not least: It is always us civilians who have to roll FIRST over to accomodate you LEOs and maybe just maybe a court of law decides we were right in the first place but by then a few years have passed and we have to pay the lawyers bill of a few thousand Dollars.
In the Military there is something called cease fire or Status quo ante bellum, but with LEOS always unconditional surrender or die.
I have read so many articles or reviews about the blogger lovers but
this article is actually a good paragraph, keep it up.