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Despite being granted a restraining order, the ATF has apparently raided San Diego area firearms parts seller Ares Armor anyway. Ares sells 80% lowers which the ATF has classified as “firearms.” The ATF has been pressuring Ares to turn over their sales records or lose them in a raid. Given the threats, earlier this week Ares moved for and was granted a restraining order against such a raid. But the above YouTube video appears to show ATF agents rummaging through Ares, apparently confiscating inventory and, you’d have to assume, their computers and customers records. This video is the only evidence we’ve been able to find of a raid so far. Stay tuned. [h/t DrVino]

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234 COMMENTS

  7. If the restraining order is still in force ATF is in contempt of court and the government Is looking at big payout to Ares.

    • Which matters to them not at all. Unless some thugs go to ass-pounding prison for this, they will continue to spend our money on these shenanigans. We really need a felony statute that can be pursued against officers that violate people’s rights. I think a 10-20 year sentence for everyone in the chain of command along with a felony conviction would do nicely.

      • Yes. Qualified immunity is an extra-constitutional, disgusting practice. Barney Fife uses it as cover for all manner of nasty behavior. After all, his target, normal, decent Americans, have to pay the bill for his wrongdoing. The only possible justification for the practice is that the cops are like retarded legal incompetents and the public are the adults responsible for their actions. Barney is just that “special” you see…

        • Well hopefully the records are gone. They are not firearms and as such there’s no legal need to keep any such records on site, or even to keep them at all. The latter could pose a future problem with the IRS but there’s still nothing F-Troop could do about it. So, hopefully, there’s nothing in the building to raid…

      • Simple two part solution:

        1. Make it possible to sue any person executing an illegal search or seizure individually.
        2. Make it illegal for the government to pick up the tab for the defense.

        You won’t see too many of these any more, because the thugs will refuse to go once a few of them get cleaned out by the lawyers.

        • For the most part, this is already the case Javier. It is not ILLEGAL for the agency to pick up the tab for attorneys fees, but it is not done in my area. The agency buys their lawyers, and the officers buy theirs. I’ve been named personally in 2 federal lawsuits, and in both I had my own counsel. Both were frivolous suits, and both dismissed in short order, thankfully.

        • Um, if the Govt stiff the bill, their union will pick it up. It’s in the contract donchaknow.

    • One can hope, but probably there will be some bullcrap justification for breaking the law as they did. Heck, even the FBI was stopped by the DoJ the other day from investigating a couple of senators for corruption! And one was Republican too.

      • Only maybe. The restraining order is still in effect BUT the ATF got a “clarification” yesterday that said it was not enjoined from seeking a warrant, nor restrained from filing criminal charges, and that order further restrained Ares from destroying the records. The way I would read this is that they were authorized to seek a warrant, but restrained from executing it. with Ares being enjoined from destroying the records, the status quo was to be maintained until the hearing in March 20. ATF apparently decided to interpret that “clarification” as authorization for a search and seizure. I wonder what the judge will think about THAT. We haven’t seen the warrant yet–so we have to wonder at this point if they got it from the same or a different judge.

    • What it really comes down to is this: The ATF now has that list of customers that they wanted so badly and they don’t give a crap about paying out for violating the order because it’s all just money they confiscated from the sheep anyway.

    • They do not care. There is no personal liability and it just comes out of budget. If anything, this helps justify a higher budget next FY. This is what our tax dollars pay for.

    • Most people who attempt to sue the government get stonewalled. And even if they do win, why should they care? It’s taxpayer money, not theirs.

    • Big payout using taxpayer dollars? I’d think they couldn’t care less. Maybe it would mean a budget increase for them next year. It should be interesting to see what the real story is.

    • Do you really think they care about that? They want the customer list and the people on that list will be next to get their doors kicked in!

  9. nutnfancy just did a video where he called the owner of ares armor. what is the basis of the atf raid ares armor does not sell guns how can they raid the shop

        • I thought I read somewhere that the ATF justification of classifying an 80% lower as a gun lies in the key spots to mill. I think in their eyes if you sell these 80% lowers then ok, but if you tell people where and how exactly to mill them then it’s a gun? They will really use ANY excuse no matter how ridiculous it is. I’m sorry Ares you don’t deserve this…

        • Hey Hannibal, do you own shoestring? Steel wool? Metal piping? Because the atf has told people that they cant own those things without a license.

          Just sayin

        • Yes to all, and feel free to bring that argument up in court and see how far it gets you. WTF does “just saying” even mean?

        • The courts have no right to decide which rights I can exercise, the u.s. Constitution only puts it on paper, to say otherwise is like saying a person in Connecticut is less equal than a person in Utah, we ALL have the same rights, no matter how technical you want to get.

  10. What is the rule of law anymore when government violates the supreme law of the land each and every day in a multitude of ways? Ultimately, might makes right, or so it appears.

  12. The ATF so want to be thought of as “good guys” (per various media commentaries), helping to keep guns out of the hands of “bad guys”. Yet, they have so few positive interdictions on their resume.

    I have read a couple of novels where the problem lies with rogue agents/bosses with power on their minds. Well, they’re just novels. Then I read ‘Guns Across the Border’ where the ATF hung Mike Detty out to dry.

    The ATF, as an agency, doesn’t do anything to help themselves and I wonder why. Is is because alcohol and tobacco are all settled and “F” is all they have left on which to focus?

    I dunno… Just scary.

    • Yeah, I never hear about them taking down gun runners selling full auto weapons to the gangs or cartels here in the US; what you do hear is them SELLING weapons to cartels in Mexico.

      I hear about them arresting gun store owners on flimsy evidence like here in NM, but when they go to trial, it is always dismissed; like the Reese family; but only after the store owners lives have been destroyed.

      And of course; the initial assault on the Branch Davidians and helping to instigate the siege and murder of the son and the mother holding a child at Ruby Ridge. If a poll was taken, I believe the BATFE would probably be the most hated and despised federal agency on the POTG short list.

        • No, because it didn’t happen. Let me guess, you heard about that in a gun shop? During a discussion on Class 3 licenses? And how getting one allows ATF to search your home unannounced whenever they like?

          Someone *registered* a shoestring once. I’ll leave you to google for the details.

        • Not a shoelace but still a “constructive possession” bust. The BATFE has issued a letter ruling on shoestrings…

          Florida Man Arrested for Constructive Possession of an SBR
          http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/08/florida-man-arrested-for-const.html

          Friday, August 28, 2009
          Man Arrested For Possessing Short Barreled Rifle; Tried To Sell On Craigslist
          A Naples man is under arrest for illegally possessing a short barreled rifle, a weapon he tried to sell over the Internet.

          Based on information obtained by Sheriff Scott, an investigation was launched into an ad that featured the sale of firearms on the web site “craisglist.com.” The ad featured a Bonita Springs reference.

          The investigation revealed that one of the firearms for sale was a short barreled rifle…illegal to possess without a federal stamp. Detectives from the Intelligence Unit set up a meeting with the seller, Jesus Amador, Jr. During that meeting, the detectives were able to inspect the weapon and determined it was indeed a short barreled rifle. Amador was unable to provide documentation necessary to possess such a weapon and was arrested.

          Arrested: Jesus Amador, Jr., DOB 9-20-81, of 2921 NE 20th Avenue, Naples, FL., charged with possession of a short barreled rifle.
          http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-472404.html

    • The ATF has NO good marks on their resume. Criminals don’t bother to register with them, they are by definition a GOTCHA agency thats out to screw over people who attempt to follow the law.

    • The one good thing I heard recently is some undercover ATF guys nabbing people who are looking for a hitman. I think they infiltrate some gangs, too. But not much else…

  13. A smart man would have taken any records he could, out of the store and stored it till?
    They knew this was coming.
    It would be funny if ATF got nothing.

    • They may have already done that, but regardless…wouldn’t you be a bit upset if the ‘Feds’ raided your business?

        • And with that admission you can expect a knock on your door, if they knock. They might just kick it in.

        • Heh. With the gub’mint already hoovering up the interwebz, they know all of this anyway. All they need do is comb through their database, and correlate the ip address metadata. Hang on a minute…..someones at the door…….

      • Unfortunately a business is required by tax law, to keep record of all transactions on site and there are fines and such for not complying. You can lose your business easily. If ARES was smart they would have logged all sales as cash transactions.

        • Not possible for interwebz credit transactions, probably a large part of their biznezz. It all seems like a political escalation of Ares’ dispute with the politically correct local gub’mint. Fighting city hall is one thing, but when the jackboot thugs kick down the door, the legal expenses multiply rapidly. Cuz jackboot brownshirts dont care about no stinkeen restraining orderz.

    • They got everything at that location as evidence. Hopefully they didn’t damage too much. Probably had warrants for the homes of the corporate officers, too. There might not be anything left of the business to conduct business until everything is sorted out through the courts or the US Attorney. Even if they get thr RO enforced, might be a completely different battle to get their property back. ATF might not be obligated to bring it back and hopefully will not charge “storage fees”.

  14. Don’t forget to bookmark this for the next time white knights defend the ATF as “just enforcers the laws and regulations already on the books”.

  15. Wow, I just pre-ordered an upper at this location last weekend. I did it b/c of the great price and the fact the owner is getting punitively attacked by National City, CA.

    The owner is in the middle of a city code enforcement battle with the usage of a billboard sign on the property. The sign shows an AR15 with the words “Unregistered. Unserialized. Legal.”

    Read more here http://aresarmor.com/store/AresArmorVsGovt

      • Yes it was cash up front, but … You have to leave contact info to receive goods when they are ready.

        So yeah I am wondering if I’ll get a call or visit or search warrant because why order an upper, or do any business, with Ares Armor unless you were buying 80% lowers and building your own rifle.

        Looks like we are calling our lawyer to find out what we need to do before all hell breaks loose.

        When was Holder getting fired again?

  16. Most cops I have found to be honorable and good people.

    As for the BATFE. They put the Thug into Jack Booted Thug.

    Instead of BATFE, The back of their black thug gear should have JBTE.

  17. the ATF gives no fuchs. they are simply making sure they get their hands on the customer list before it’s hidden or deleted. doesn’t matter what the consequences are. selling a chunk of metal is not illegal. but they need to account for every potential firearm to ensure their hit list is complete.

  19. So, the Law doesn’t matter anymore, the govt. just does what they want, when they want, the way they want to fit their agenda. I guess we are no longer free. In truth I don’t think we have been for a long time. We are as free as long as we do what the govt. says. “Obey the laws and whatever else we decide is right……or else!”

    Wheelgun

  20. If they did get the customer list, what can they do to the buyers? Wasn’t there an “issues” regarding the reverse manufacture of complete receivers into 80%ers? I believe there was also something about pre drilled pin and selector guide holes in the polymer editions that got ATF cranky as well. Loolks like a case of ” respect my au-tho-ei-ti” or else.

    • Best argument yet for a business keeping its’ records (such as sales records and customer lists) offsite and the business’ PCs sterile.

    • Yup, this news report states that the BATFE thinks the receivers were made into firearms first and then attempted to be converted back to 80% by filling in the fire control cavity afterwards. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kZG-D1r8VM&t=2m30s

      According to EP armory this is incorrect. http://www.scribd.com/doc/212260831/Ares-Armor-TRO-Complaint

      “The BATFE has raided EP Armory based on incorrect information about EP Armory’s manufacturing process. The determination letter written by the BATFE incorrectly classified the EP Armory product as a firearm based on faulty information. The BATFE was under the impression that EP Armory was making a firearm and then reverting back to the 80% stage by filling in the fire-control cavity. At no point during the manufacturing process by EP Armory is a weapon made and then reverted. The solid fire-control cavity is built first and the rest of the 80% casting is made around this “core” specifically so that their product at no time could be considered to be a firearm.”

  21. If the ATF won’t respect a restraining order, why should that crazy ex who got slapped with one last week. I’m telling you, paper shields.

    • #ROUGEagency? Are you saying they wear too much makeup?

      Just kidding… I know what you mean. The ATF is the worst criminal organization in America today.

    • Depends who issues it. If it’s a federal writ it would have to be quashed first… if it’s a local judge who writes it up it means dick-all to federal agents.

  24. Looks like the government considers itself above all laws, restraining orders and the Constitution. Where do they get the moral authority to act? Where does any prosecutor or police officer get the moral authority to act when the central government has illustrated its disdain for the rule of law from the president down to the rank and file?
    BATFE is an unConstitutional agency and should be disbanded. The attitude they, and many others in the central government have, is the anthesis of a free nation. Cowards, except in a band. True thugs that should be dealt with accordingly.

    • Aye!

      It isn’t going to get better until the People demand that the Constitution be adhered to by government; every letter.

  25. The restraining order is the most recent legal document. You are on my property illegally. You are on my property illegally and armed. Prepare to be shot.

  26. I don’t see a copy of the restraining order. If it’s from his local court (again, I have no idea) I doubt it has any legal power to stop a federal agent from investigating a federal crime. In that case it’s worth less than the paper it is written on.

      • Of course, but that’s how it all works. And to be fair, I’m not sure a podunk judge who may or may not be senile should necessarily be able to stymie a federal investigation.

        • Translation: I’m not sure due process of law should ever stop the government from taking what it wants.

    • It is a federal court order from the Southern District of California, and the “clarification” given the ATF was by the same judge. The order allows them to seize contraband–but not sure that extends to the customer list.

  30. Why spoil the beauty of a raid with a restraining order aka legality. Just like Gibson guitar factory raided by EPA thugs. Who will hold them to account? AG Eric Holder? Sorry I can’t type and LMAO at the same time!
    They want the customer data, how dare civilians acquire what was legal last month, can’t be traced, and technically was sold legally.

    • “Who will hold them to account? AG Eric Holder? ”

      That’s really the bottom line. It will ultimately fall upon the DoJ to prosecute the BATFE for wrongdoing which simply isn’t going to happen. Issa can add it to the list of things to pester Holder about, but in the end it’s likely that nothing of significance will happen.

  31. Absolutely disgusting. The guys at Ares seem like great folks.
    I’d hope for some outrage in CA, but that would only happen if they hit a pot dispensary by mistake.

    CALIFORNIA, you have more gun owners than most states have total population. When are you gonna wake the f**k up and take back what’s yours?

  32. Here is the restraining order:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/212508154/Order-Clarifying-TRO-Ares-Armor

    The key quotation making the ATF raid today legal, assuming they have a search warrant:

    “TRO DOES NOT ENJOIN lawful criminal proceedings, include the application for or lawfully executed seizure of evidence and contraband pursuant to a search warrant issued by a sworn United States Magistrate Judge pursuant to Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 41”

    • So the judge basically eliminated any effect that the TRO would have had? Wow…

      This is the sort of judge who needs a neck stretching to remind his replacement who they work for.

      • He probably CAN’T enjoin otherwise lawful court orders. It looks like he was basically putting the old saying into writing “don’t come back without a warrant.” Well, I imagine they did.

        Nice job finding the doc…

    • Very interesting find. So, the ATF gets a warrant to get evidence for the crime of an 80% plastic lower sales and that nullifies the TRO? Wow.

  33. So much for that restraining order. But it is okay if the ATF breaks the law. One rule for them another rule for us.

  35. What shocks me isn’t that shit like this happens, but that so many people are completely oblivious. So they raided a filthy gun store, who cares? Doesn’t have anything to do with MY rights. Uh huh.

  36. If I were selling 80% lowers or jigs online, I would have a policy that I would not retain customer data for any longer than necessary to complete the transaction.

    Also: Please take cellphone videos in landscape. Thank you. For the children.

    • I agree. If you need to give the customer some proof of purchase, do so with the packaging or something. Just like buying a donut, we do not need to be bringing paper into this.

      • Mitch Hedburg was awesome.

        “I just can’t imagine a situation where I’d have to prove that I bought a donut. Some skeptical friend? Don’t even act like I didn’t get that donut, I’ve got the documentation right here… oh wait, it’s back home in the file… under D… for donut.”

    • Cell phone video… at least the recording device or post-processing software had some image-stabilization smarts (left-right, up-down, rotating). To me, that more than makes up for the “portrait mode faux pas”.

  37. So Ares new this was coming. With or without restraining order. I hope they moved all their data and records to an offsite location somewhere. So when the hired guns come calling, they find nothing. I hope they found nothing.

    • Hopefully they didn’t depend on some court order that can just be squished by another court order just as fast.

      • After the order above, if it’s not “tampering with evidence”, it at least violates a court order:

        “Plaintiff Lycurgan Inc. DBA Ares Armor (“Plaintiff”) and its owners, officers, managers, employees, and agents ARE HEREBY PROHIBITED from taking any steps to destroy, transfer, sell, or otherwise divest themselves of the items that are the subject matter of the Court’s March 11, 2014 Temporary Restraining Order (“TRO”) (see ECF No. 4);”

  38. AA should have walked a few of these parts into Mexico, I’m sure the BATF would have left them alone….then.

  39. Violation of a court granted Restraining Order. Shouldn’t local Law Enforcement immediately apprehend any and all Federal Officers involved in said raid including Supervisors who issued orders. As well as any and all personnel handling seized property. This is now a case of Criminal Trespass, Theft Of Private Property and Identity Theft. Most likely Grand Theft

    • 1) Read the order, which someone helpfully posted in the comments
      2) Go to (non-internet) law school
      3) Stop capitalizing Words for no Reason.

    • The longer answer is that local police don’t enforce federal law, and the order that was ordered on behalf of the Ares folks specifically did not stop ATF or anyone else from conducting a legal investigation.

      Meaning, if they got a warrant, the court order did not apply by its own words. Therefore, unless the ATF got a warrant under false pretenses, there is no violation of law on their side. And if they did, that would be a completely separate issue than the court order.

  44. It really does begin; so the ATF violated a court order; I hope the judge in charge of the case orders the agent in charge thrown in JAIL for a long time for contempt of court.

    What is to stop the ATF from Raiding Midway claiming they sell magazines to Felons? This is just insane.

  45. This is why it is so important to have encrypted records onsite and offsite. Linux is IMHO the best for record keeping. If someone tries to login 5X with wrong password the machine goes in to secure data wipe in the background. The longer they leave the computer running the more times the data is overwritten.

    • Or, if you’re going to store records, only store them offsite. The local (in-store) machine is just a terminal; sessions are closed after some [really short] period of inactivity – or when the front door is forcibly opened.

  46. LET THEM KNOW WHAT YOU THINK OF WHAT THEY DID!!!!

    San Diego ATF field office that did the raid… (818) 265-3700

    Don’t just sit there commenting on a post, pick up the phone.

  50. Hey correct me if I’m wrong here, but what would be the legal situation if Ares decided to defend their property and shoot off the ATF? Obviously, it would get sticky real quick, but I believe you are allowed to defend yourself from ANYONE who you have a restraining order against.

    • In theory that would probably be true, but the gov does not play by the rules, and they would probably nail you to the wall anyway.

  51. My concern here centers on the question of how long before those jerks reclassify AR uppers and try to visit PSA?

  52. Perhaps it’s a good idea to make sure any 80% lowers you sell comes with a determination letter from ATF. Just sayin’. Meanwhile, they should REALLY try to get the government’s attention by putting a big ‘ol sign outside with a picture of an AR and the words “Unserialized. No Registration. Legal.” Oh, wait.

    Play stupid games, win stupid prizes..

      • There are a very few, simple, obvious steps they could have taken to prevent this. They chose instead to poke the bear. They’re not a very sympathetic victim, IMHO. Like the drunk guy at the bar who keeps telling the big dude to hit him, and then the big dude hits him. Can’t fix stupid.

        May the destruction of their business and the decimation of their life savings be a lesson to others who would follow in their footsteps.

        • Just like all those bad gun owners who choose to “poke the bear” by owning AR15’s or AK47’s or who choose to belong to those gun clubs or organizations like JFPO or NRA or SAF, etc…..they are just asking to get more regulation thrown at them. How dare they!!

        • @nnjj:
          Isn’t that a straw man argument? You’re trying to equate two individuals who posses unalienable rights to a situation between individuals and a government with privileges. So, in order to engage in business without fear of unconstitutional reprisals from their government, those business owners were expected to kiss their rights goodbye (especially 1st and 4th amendment protections)? Seriously?!?!

        • “So, in order to engage in business without fear of unconstitutional reprisals from their government, those business owners were expected to kiss their rights goodbye”

          John, we both know it’s a little more complex than that. There are people in prison RIGHT NOW for failing to pay their income taxes because they believe it’s unconstitutional or whatever. I admire their principals, but question their wisdom. That’s kinda where I am with the folks mentioned in this story (minus the admiration).

  53. So, the ATF need not follow the law, unless they want to. I’ll be expecting another Waco/Ruby Ridge any time now.

    I wonder how many of the seized partial receivers are gonna end up in the hands of the Sinaloa Cartel?

  54. This isnt about arresting the store owner. The owner refused to turn over his client data LEGALLY and the tyranic ATF raided his store ANYWAY to get the records. The courts will likely tell the ATF to return goods and info back to the owner, but by then the ATF will have successfully gotten what they wanted anyway: the lists of all people who purchased 80% lowers from Ares. I strongly advise anyone reading this to go to gun shows and stock up on any 80% lowers you find before their banned by the ATF when our government declares these illegal. Make sure you pay cash and dont leave your name. The revolution is building folks. You better be armed.

  55. Unless they sent them through the mail why do they have the names of the people who bought them?

    Did you have to give your name when you purchased one?

  56. I received an email from ep last night after pounding the shite out of their inbox. They implied but didn’t directly state that data confiscated was still protected by several layers of security. Maybe I won’t get that knock at the door after all. Still though I think everybody should be melting their plastic down (wink)

  57. I purchase some 80 from them n ep,
    I am on the list for sure, so tell what the difference is between the 80 lowers anywhere else
    So now i wait for the govt to knock on my door
    Bullshit
    this country is has gone to the shitter

  58. All the more reason to fight when they show up at our doors! Let’s see how many of then want to die for disobeying the Constitution they took an oath to uphold.

  59. so my buddy just went down to ares and found out that the atf got the restraining order overturned last night and that they took all their computers and some inventory. all i know. this is bull$#!t

  60. The joke is on them for moving on the National City store. There will be no polymers there, nor will there be any customer records. They will not get anything from that location but embarrassment. The entire incident is probably caught on many cameras. Don’t be surprised if Ares posts it all on their website.

    Also, that site is owned by a different company. It has Ares Armor’s name on it, but it isn’t part of Ares Armor as a company. This could become a real problem for the ATF to explain. They broke down a door to a comany that isn’t the subject of the warrant, if they even had one. Think of it as having a warrant for a McDonald’s in Oceanside. Are they allowed do break down the door of a different McDonald’s franchise store in National City?

  62. It’s okay. ARs are for weenies. I’ve got a Winchester 100 loaded with something way more powerful than .223. And it isn’t on any registry. 😉

  63. I sure hope the owners of this gun shop had sense enough to get these records/computers hidden and/or out of their shop before obamas gestapo hit. 80% lowers are legal and these federal punks with a badge goddamn sure know that.

  64. Dont see them going after drug runners selling full autos!! There going after the honest man who legally buys a lower reciever!! Imagine that!!

    • Self-preservation at work. Gangs and drug dealers with full-auto would be more likely to go down shooting, and someone is gonna get hurt or killed. The average Joe, even if he takes a stand, is easily overpowered by an MRAP full of SWAT, and some tear gas.

  65. They are looking to send them lowers to Ukraine this makes things faster. Maybe a few to Mexico aswell. To them honest people ya know.. ..Americans dont deserve guns lol while big o is sending them for other country’s to protect themselves!! Ha

  66. I guaranty that it doesn’t matter for most that made purchases, being that it was probably done on credit.
    This was all a scam to shut down the business or at least cripple it.

    You know that the Feds only need to do a quick request with VISA, Master Card and the ilk to retrieve a list of all purchases. Only the money transfers and cash sales would be new information from the raids.

    There was 100% no logical reason for this unlawful raid, aside from harassment.

    • It also serves BATFE’s purposes by chilling effect. From now on, more people will be concerned about purchasing 80% lowers. Anything short of a full smackdown of the BATFE by the court (unlikely) will not repair the damage caused by their actions. I’m sure that government wanted less people buying 80% lowers.

      • You can bet all the other manufacturers / distributors of 80-percent lowers are spending their weekend on countermeasures.

        The next ATF raid will be much more difficult and much less productive.

        “Customer list? Order history? We don’t keep those. Just receipts and expenditures for tax purposes.”

        • I certainly hope so. I also hope that the 80% market can recover from the PR damage caused by the BATFE’s unconstitutional breaking, entering, and theft.

        • If they aren’t selling poly lowers with alternatively colored poly in the areas that need machining, I doubt they have any need to worry.

        • Just like EP Armory thought after they say they got repeated assurances from the BATFE that their design was not a gun and was not under BATFE jurisdiction.

          The problem is that BATFE told them they were fine. The got permission from BATFE. Then BATFE said they were not fine, and they were suddenly magically illegal.

          BATFE has done this several times over the years.

          No one has ever taken them to account, at least since 1986. They keep getting budget increases, and this administration has shown it will lie for them and go to the wall against a congressional investigation for them.

        • “Just like EP Armory thought after they say they got repeated assurances from the BATFE that their design was not a gun and was not under BATFE jurisdiction.”

          Please provide a link or confirmation that EP ever got a written determination from ATF that their 80% lower isn’t a firearm.

          What nobody here seems to get is that ATF isn’t after 80% lowers. They’re after THIS lower because they believe it was manufactured in such a way to make it a firearm. Whether it was or not will be determined later, but some of the people here need to take off the tin foil hats and chill out. And TTAG needs to stop feeding this nonsense in such a way to let peoples’ imaginations get the better of them.

          This is getting ridiculous. The ignorant, reactionary behavior in these comments is shameful. Surely someone will comment that I’m siding with the ATF now, because, the bar here seems to have about hit rock bottom. But hey, I guess it gets TTAG page views, which is why they’re feeding into it.

          TL;DR: The shiny side goes on the outside to reflect their mind control rays.

        • You re correct, it is the specific poly lower that is the problem here. IMHO it shouldn’t matter, the ATF needs to bug off, the 2A is clear. Still, many here are crying foul without understanding the situation fully. Many of them would change their tune completely if they understood the whole nature of this situation.

          Even if the lower is produced as they state, with the “plug” manufactured first, and the rest of the lower then molded around it, the loophole being utilized to sidestep the regulations is likely to be overruled. After all, the letter of the law gets used when it is good for the gov, and the spirit of the law is used when the letter of the law favors the citizen. Welcome to the modern USA.

        • “the loophole being utilized to sidestep the regulations is likely to be overruled.”

          There is no “loophole” being utilized. They built what they think is a non-receiver, just like a block of plastic or aluminum. ATF disagrees, and the onus is on them to show that ATF is wrong. If they had submitted it to ATF for a determination, they wouldn’t be in this mess.

          But I agree with this:
          “Still, many here are crying foul without understanding the situation fully.”

          That was well said. Mind you, TTAG doesn’t seem all that interested in clarifying the situation, presumably because misguided anger drives page views.

        • But there is a loophole. The ATF is claiming that the lowers are made, finished to 100 percent completion, and then backfilled with an alternate color of poly, to serve as a guide in removal. Thus, they took a 100 percent receiver which should have been serialized, and then altered it, which does not remove the need for it to have been serialized.
          The manufacturer claims they manufacture the alternate colored plug first, then mold the upper around the plug. Still, they have divided the manufacture into separate processes, it is not molded as one unit in one process. This brings into question the legitimacy of their 80 percent claim. At best, they have found a loophole for the manufacture of this poly lower without serializing, one that will likely be closed at this point.

        • @nnjj “If they had submitted it to ATF for a determination, they wouldn’t be in this mess.”. Or at least it would have decreased their odds. It’s not like they haven’t reversed themselves before.

          @Paul G “Still, they have divided the manufacture into separate processes, it is not molded as one unit in one process. This brings into question the legitimacy of their 80 percent claim.”. According to Dimitri’s letter, the ATF’s determination was based only on order of operation (firearm made and then filled) which EP armory obviously claims is false. “The determination letter written by the BATFE incorrectly classified the EP Armory product as a firearm based on faulty information. The BATFE was under the impression that EP Armory was making a firearm and then reverting back to the 80% stage by filling in the fire-control cavity”

          If Ares or EP would release their correspondence with the ATF (especially the determination classifying the 80% poly lowers as firearms), it might clear up the FUD.

        • ATF didn’t make a determination based on the actual method of production, with the alternate color being made first…who knows what they will determine. They are capricious, after all.

        • According to Ares, they (ATF) did have a determination letter for the EP lower mfg process. http://aresarmor.com/store/NewsArticle/Temporary_Restraining_Order_Against_BATFE

          “7. The BATFE has Raided EP Armory based on incorrect information about EP Armory’s manufacturing process. The determination letter written by the BATFE incorrectly classified the EP Armory product as a firearm based on faulty information. The BATFE was under the impression that EP Armory was making a firearm and then reverting back to the 80% stage by filling in the fire-control cavity.”

          If they do have a letter, it should be published (if it hasn’t been already).

  67. Knowing they were going to be raided ares should have either destroyed or secured the customer list away from their location.

  69. Constitution violations by our federal employees, Obviously OATH BREAKERS, even the City cop on the street providing back up & crowd control! The Boots are starting to Drop on our necks, Are you going to be the last one asking for help when there is none left?

    Where is the Sheriff? Where does he stand? He is your elected official. Apparently he believes he doesn’t have a say. Because I am giving him the benefit of doubt, he is a constitutional sheriff. The agents raiding should be detained by the city or state police or county sheriff!

    Stay strong Ares Armor! You might just be the tipping point, of tomorrow!

  70. We don’t find a way to stop this run away train, we are not going to have a second amendment. ALL gun owners should join NRA. We should be able to quad triple are membership, but gun owners keep thinking we have a second amendment to fall back on. Our constitutional amendment is broke. We need to fight back, or start a civil war.

    • Where was the NRA on this? Where has the NRA been for any case involving home builders? The NRA is worthless for anyone in that category. Sending them money doesn’t do squat for these people. Join a group that actually works for the citizen directly, GOA. GOC if you’re in california.
      sincerely a former NRA member.

  71. “What’s wrong with you?!”
    “Me? Nothing, you on the other hand, have a bullet inside of you.”
    Archer, anyone?

  72. Why does he need to keep records. His company sells gun parts. Not guns, therefore, the need for records from a government standpoint doesn’t exist.

  73. it still amazes me to see all this outrage. it’s like no one expects the govt to act like this when they have been doing this for more years than most of us have on this planet. when will it finally sink in that the govt is not your friend and could give a rats ass what you think. the guys at ares were stupid for thinking that order would keep the atf out. they simply those things on a regular basis. one call from obama or holder and the judge is usually quaking in their shoes. this judge could not revoke the order fast enough. this is what happens when the feds have the power to yank your ass off the street and make you disappear. to all gunowners out there, it will take a hell of a lot more than righteous indignation to keep your weapons. the enemy is the govt and they are getting ready to shove those gun rights right up your ass. look, if the feds can get away with a waco or a ruby ridge there is nothing to stop them from pulling up in front of your house at three in the morning, kicking your door down, and hauling your ass off to jail. that, my friends, is the very essence of what a police state is. get used to it or get ready to stand up. the feds are in your face already. it is time for each of you to decide what you are going to do.

  74. Funny, this comes after the Bullshit they tried up in Reno, NV. almost all the ATF agents here transferred to other areas cause the DA stopped taking their worthless cases. there were several big writeups here in the Rgj journal.

  75. C’mon, once he was threaten with a raid, the 1st thing he should of did was move the customer data. Scrubbed the hd and started from scratch. All those names are at risk. He got waayyy to comfortable with that RO.

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