“Police say [Dr. Peter Steinmetz] brought his gun to [Sky Harbor Airport] legally,” myfoxphoenix.com reports. “He told police that he was just at the airport to get coffee at a Starbucks. When he walked to the other side of the terminal near the B concourse that is when police say he accidentally pointed the gun at two women, that’s when he was arrested . . . Police arrested Steinmetz on one-felony count of disorderly conduct with a weapon.” We fast forward now to Dr. Steinmetz’ arraignment . . .
“Sir you are here for two counts of disorderly conduct involving a weapon,” said a judge during his arraignment. Steinmetz made his first appearance in front of the judge. As part of his bond agreement, he is not allowed to possess weapons.
“When you say I can have no weapons, what precisely do you mean by that, please?” he asked. The judge replied, “it means no weapons.”
Apparently, this was not Dr. Steinmetz’s first I’m-going-to-open-carry-an-AR-15-style-rifle-at-the-airport rodeo.
Phoenix Police say they had contact with Steinmetz and his son back in November, shortly after the shooting at LAX. He was not arrested at that time because he did not break the law or threaten anyone.
Which was an excellent reason not to arrest the good doctor. As the report of the more recent incident indicates that Dr. Steinmetz’s rifle was slung over his shoulder, and inadvertently “pointed” at peeps when he shifted it, that would be another good reason not to arrest him.
Even so, open carrying a rifle in an airport is a bit OTT (Over The Top). A handgun in a holster would have been the more reasonable choice, both from the making-a-statement-without-scaring-the-horses POV and a self-defense perspective. Another own goal or a valid political statement? We report, you deride.
Does the good surgeon self-medicate, perhaps?
He’s NOT actually a licensed doctor, let alone a neurosurgeon! Search the Arizona’s medical license lookup.
In fact, he doesn’t practice medicine or surgery at all. He’s a part-time neuroscience researcher. Although he does have an M.D. and Ph.D., I’m always a bit cynical about a (non-retired) physician who doesn’t actually practice or can’t get a license.
He’s an MD & PhD so since he works in a non clinical field, there is no need to dish out the big bucks for maintaining a license to practice clinical medicine. But the guy is a big wig and associated with the Barrow Neurological Institute. His lab is named AFTER HIM. He’s no small fry.
Here’s his actual bio (now deleted, but the interwebs always keeps a cache! Lois Lerner ):
That is some great research! Thanks for sharing. There is an old saying that probably applies in his case. Those that cannot do, teach. 😉
Not a good brain surgeon. Not exactly a thinker. When you start muzzle sweeping people in the airport with your loaded AR, you’ve gone from attention whore to idiot who can’t follow the four basic rules. Now, his open carry stunt is mostly going to cost him his medical license, those felony convictions seem to be a problem for state boards.
A brain surgeon is a highly specialized and trained medical technician. His ability to think critically – or not – isn’t necessarily an indication of his abilities as a surgeon.
Also, why are you assuming his gun was loaded? That doesn’t appear in either the above post or the original fox news article.
You are evidently not experienced with firearms or you’re not very intelligent. Being muzzle swept under any condition is not acceptable. All firearms are assumed to be loaded.
Well said Scott.
It IS unacceptable…unless the person sweeping you is one of the commando/cops on the sidewalk in front of Sky Harbor International Airport, in which case if you complain about it you’re just being too uptight and are probably just a cop hater, and at best you’d be ignored for complaining about it, at worst you’d be arrested for…for whatever. None of us were there, so it could’ve been a legit charge, or it could just be that the cops were butthurt that he made them look bad last November, so they came up with a plan for what to do if it ever happened again, and that plan was to wait until the rifle was tilted 15 degrees in any direction other than straight up and down, and then arrest him on some trumped up obscure charge. Then again, I wasn’t there either, which is why I’m not jumping to conclusions.
Well said Barstow.
You are evidently not experienced with firearms or you’re not very intelligent.
Unsubstanciated assertion with zero evidence or support.
Being muzzle swept under any condition is not acceptable. All firearms are assumed to be loaded.
As one of the 4 rules – yes. However, a holstered weapon can and will muzzle sweep people given the orientation of the person carrying it (openly or concealed). I would have expected you to know this given your ability to detect and assert anyone or anything as stupid at any time:
• Shoulder holsters are just stupid.
• The brain surgeon was effing STUPID to do what he did PERIOD!
• We who believe in the 2nd Amendment understand that it shall not be infringed but we can be SMART about and we can STUPID about it.
• Hey go ahead and use an AR and shoot your neighbors, I say you are stupid and reckless for doing so.
• Anonymous AND STUPID.
• I would let them know how STUPID I think they are.
At this point – I’m going to reference Jon’s post who made a good point:
I live in an open carry State, but don’t choose to press to test that situation often.
It tends to alienate others.
Hearts and minds, people…
You echoed my exact point a little bit better and with less words than I did. Bravo Zulu Sir!
Yeah, I hears about this on the news the other day. KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF YOUR GUN if you’re going to OC.
I THINK THAT’S THE POINT.
I think you should read the article before making assumptions.
“As the report of the more recent incident indicates that Dr. Steinmetz’s rifle was slung over his shoulder, and inadvertently “pointed” at peeps when he shifted it,” means he DID NOT have his hands on the rifle!
That does not even matter if he was handling it or not! If the muzzle points at someone and they see it that can be construed as a threat. We who believe in the 2nd Amendment understand that it shall not be infringed but we can be SMART about and we can STUPID about it. The brain surgeon was effing STUPID to do what he did PERIOD!
If it does not matter, then why does he mention it???
It does matter, and whether you are holding it in your hands or not DOES make the difference in whether you are being threatening or not. It’s not perception that matters, it’s what’s actually happening, and it’s the others responsibility to be aware of what is actually happening and not be “effing stupid” about it.
Again – referencing Jon Post:
The doctor shifted his weapon. The article did not indicate he unslung his weapon, or shouldered it, or intentionally pointed it at people.
Did you read where the good moronic doctor had his laser site on??? Jeez, read the entire article before you start tearing into a valid argument! The two women were laser ie muzzle swept. It’s right there for you to read. I tried to make peace with you but you are trying my patience with your lack of attention to detail now go back and read the article again (in the voice I use with my 14 year old when he stubbornly attempts to be lazy about school work)
There was no laser sight. Here is the article provided by TTAG:
No mention of lasers – anywhere.
From the FB post:
“If you’re going to open carry in an airport, you probably shouldn’t laser anyone with it.”
Why would anyone go all the way to an airport to visit Starbucks? Seems like there’s more to this story than reported. He does look kinda out of it in the mug shot.
There is more. Despite being a brain surgeon, a position that is highly respected in all communities, this guy wanted more attention and went out attention whoring with his AR. I guess that attention is working out well for him.
Well, it looks like he got on TV, so there is that…
There are a lot of strange people in Phoenix.
Most of the people around here are from somewhere else. I really doubt that this guy was an Arizonan by birth.
Don’t count on it Barstow. The heat here can do a number on people’s brain, even natives. Some of the native Arizonans are crazier than a Texan Oakland Raider fan. Besides, it’s summer. Most of the not natives have done run off.
I find most of the crazy Arizonans are in Apache Junction, Kingman, and certain parts of East Mesa.
If OC of pistols is legal why would one choose a cumbersome rifle?? Just sayin he couldve had a pistol in a nice accessible holster not an AR slung on his back which makes it harder to put that weapon in to action if need arises.
Am I actually supposed to believe that he pointed his gun at two women?
I agree – sounds sketchy. More likely the cops told him to leave the first time around and if he returned they would arrest him on disorderly conduct.
There s a security video tape.
The video shows the arrest.
This is an example of the typical American law enforcement agency. They jump at every opportunity to arrest someone. A sane assessment of the situation by a police officer would probably have resulted in a simple warning to be careful about accidentally pointing a gun at someone.
Intent does count, but law enforcement agencies simply don’t care about an obvious lack of intent. They’ll make an arrest anyway.
At the range you should be warned not to point your gun at people.
At the airport if you’re carrying an AR-15 ‘to get coffee’ you better damn know not to point your gun at people.
Look, I know a lot of people are against open carry…but from the video, and what I’ve found to read about it, this arrest was dumb as sh!t.
A useful idiot for anti-gunners.
Another rights-less felon forged by the judicial system. Where are the victims? Wait – there are none.
So you enjoy being muzzle swept by itdots? Either you don’t spend much time shooting, or you don’t see the stupidity of violating the 4 rules.
Who says that anyone was muzzle swept? Oh, yeah, the cops said so, and they’re never wrong or lie or stuff.
And the two people who made the complaint as well as other witnesses. This goof played a game that he wasn’t going to win, and now it gets to enjoy his defeat. There was not path to victory with his little stunts.
Not only the cops said he swept two women, but the NEWSPAPER said it too, so it must be so. I only hope that the two victims of this muzzle sweep can go on to live some kind of semi-normal lives. So much pain…
I’m guessing this is how it went:
“‘Scuse me miss, did you know that guy over there with the rifle just muzzle swept you?”
“What’s muzzle swept, officer?”
“Never mind, can you just sign this complaint for me please?”
Do we want to sit here and plead the case that he should not have been arrested? Sure, now that he has been arrested, it’s valid, but wouldn’t it be better that he did not put himself/us in this f*cking stupid position and getting arrested by accident?
Come on, it’s not “BRAIN SURGURY” or has his already been removed?
*Bent over too far while OCing at an airport*
FELONY! BURN THE WITCH!
Maybe he was going to moon somebody.
For a brain surgeon he seems to be pretty brain dead.
Im all for open carry even though we don’t have it here in Florida anymore.
But I am sick of all these folks trying to get their point across by open carrying AR-15s.
I feel at this point they are causing the public more fears in general then sympathy.
This guy is nuts. Nobody–and I do mean nobody–goes to Sky Harbor unless they absolutely have to.
You mean Starbuck’s, Right.
I brew my own with a Keurig, black
Even when they have to most people find a way to avoid it, or at least avoid the darn Starbucks there…
Seems to me that I commented somewhere about the Doctor and that it was only a matter of time before got hid stupid ass arrested. If a person is dumb enough to open carry a rifle in a busy airport like Phoenix, then it seems abundantly reasonable that he shouldn’t posses more than a straw with spit-wads.
Thank you, Mr. Feinstein.
Lioyd is just trying to put a reasonable face on the 2A movement, you know, so the antis will see we’re just like them and then they’ll just drop it and leave us alone.
Hmmm, even though open carry of an AR is legal I think sound judgement is in order here and the good doctor did not display a lick of that. I agree with the author that an open holstered pistol would probably do the trick. I am not a big proponent of open carry of rifles or shotguns in any public arena either as I believe the order of battle is. 1. Pistols for open and concealed carry 2. Shotguns for home protection and 3. Rifles to keep all the above from any sort of gun grabbing + battle. Did I open a can or worms or do I get some agreement here?
Why would you use a shotgun for home defense instead of an AR-15?
Easy shotgun has wide coverage. Sometimes the sound of racking a shell into an 870 is enough and there is little danger of my shots causing damage or injury outside of my residence.
Congratulations — all three of your reasons are incorrect.
Why am I supposed to care about what your OPINION is? You do whatever you want, I couldn’t give a crap. I am just stating my own preference.
Agreed, Scott. Personally I prefer to lob a pumpkin ball after the shot charge goes downrange than two HSLD .22s. To each their own.
at 20 feet, the spread is about that of a softball. You aren’t going to see that advantage in the close confines of a home.
Criminals are rarely scared off by the racking, and even IF they were, the sound of an AR racking is just as effective.
Penetration of the high velocity rounds of 5.56 or.223 is less than the penetration of 00 buck through sheetrock, while the 5.56 or .223 is very effective against soft tissue where bird shot(which wouldn’t over penetrate sheetrock) is not.
Also, the AR allows you to maintain control of your weapon as you open doors. It’s short enough that you don’t have as much of the weapon exposed. And the lower recoil allows you to remain on target should they need more encouragement to leave(or lie down and quit breathing).
Exactly. Additionally, the AR-15 holds more rounds and is easier and quicker to reload, should you find it necessary (hopefully you won’t!)
People who talk about racking shotguns are listening to Joe Biden too much. Every self/home defense instructor will tell you that is stupid. First of all, it means you’ve got a gun that is not prepared. Do you walk around with an empty chamber in your pistol? Second of all, it gives away your position. If you’re going to do that, you might as well yell, “Stop, I have a gun, police are on the way!” At least that way you’ll have one more round and the criminal, who might be on drugs, is more likely not to miss the sound.
Here’s one instructor, Rob Pincus, on the myth about home defense and racking a round into the chamber of a shotgun and how stupid that is. It’s going to slow you down and might get you killed.
Here’s is Yeager saying the same thing. It’s stupid.
They also address the “you can’t miss” and over-penetration myths, all of the things the poster got wrong. All the reasons he uses a shotgun for home defense are myths. They are just plain, 100% wrong.
Hey go ahead and use an AR and shoot your neighbors, I say you are stupid and reckless for doing so.
I think you missed the point. If you kill your neighbor with an AR, you were even more likely to kill your neighbor with a shotgun. Overpenetration through a solid medium(like the walls of your home) is GREATER with a shotgun than an AR.
Seriously, Joe is that you?
The force protection trainers I have encountered will go with a shotgun or and MP-5 in built up area over an AR. You don’t need a 500 yard weapon in a 10 yard environment Now there are some nice pistol calibers AR around so I guess you can do both. For those who keep saying that the 5.56 doesn’t have a lot of penetration. That is an “it depends” statement. If you use standard military ball ammo then guess again. There are home defense rounds that are designed to limit penetration of hard materials so when you make that statement make sure you qualify it with the right information.
Here’s some tests done by Gunsite and the Mesa Police Department. Note that the only calibers which did NOT exit the “house” were 5.56mm soft points and hollow point loaded bullets. 9mm, .40, and .45 did.
Here’s another result showing the 5.56 penetrates less than a lowly 9mm pistol round.
Conclusions are that MSR’s are easier to manipulate in high-stress situations than handguns. Most of the weapons manipulations needed to operate the firearm is in the form of gross motor skills rather than fine motor skills. The longer sight radius provides as easier platform to line up your shot. Most of today’s standard carbines come with Picatinny rails or other mounting systems for optics such as Eotech and Aimpoint sights that are very effective at point shooting. Many of these carbines can be very light (especially if you keep the accessories to what you feel you need rather than what you feel you want) and capable of one handed operation while you flip light switches and open doors.
The same facet that made the MSR’s selective-fire military cousins, the M16 etc. a favorite with ground pounders makes it a winner in high threat situations: carrying a large yet still compact magazine with a high capacity that can be replaced rapidly. If you have multiple assailants in your home, it is comforting to bring 30-rounds in one magazine to the party. This cannot realistically be duplicated by a handgun or shotgun.
Using .223/5.56 carbines/MSRs for home defense is a valid option that should be considered when looking at family protection, and I’d rather use a 5.56 carbine than a shotgun loaded with 00 buck or slug. Of course, some mitigate that over-penetration issue by using birdshot, which is not recommended. The ease of use of a carbine over a shotgun, particularly for some (women, elderly, etc.), make it a winner.
“Are there over-penetration risks when using 223 or 5.56 NATO ammunition?”
In short, no. In fact, every Hornady® 223 Rem and 5.56 NATO load is designed to penetrate less than most service pistol cartridges. Total penetration varies from as little as 5.5 inches from the 40 grain load to 15 inches from the 62 grain barrier load. All of these are equal to or less than the FBI’s maximum recommended penetration of 15 inches.
All Hornady® 223 and 5.56 loads are designed to expand rapidly when they come into contact with a soft medium. This allows for maximum wound cavitation and little risk of over-penetration.
Federal also has good info on 5.56/.223 ballistics you may be interested in. Although, personally I’m not worried about OVER-penetration in a home SD situation. I’m worried about something that is easy to use and gets the job done accurately.
I think I said personal defense ammo is ok. Just not ball. TTAG even posted some penetration studies that showed that:
You may not care if you kill or wound your neighbor in a self defense situtaiton but law enforcement will espcially is you use ball when you could have used a self-defense round.
I am actually more concerned with windows and skylights, which I have quite a few off, than drywall. I don’t care about studies for my environment and circumstance I will stick to 870 and heavy bird shot. My belief and most of the people I competitively shoot with beliefs are that. 1. Shotgun for home defense 2. Pistols for carry and 3. Rifles to ensure 1 & 2 are doable and to bring about the REAL Hope and Change that we all so desire!
if overpentration is a concern, then a MP5 and shotgun are worse choices than a AR, by far. similar to doing surgery with a scalpel rather than a kabar.
I think the consensus is that walls in modern homes are concealment, not cover, therefore accurate shots are absolutely critical.
It is really a catch 22. You can prevent overpenetration as a maximum priority with birdshot or frangible rounds, although the lack of penetrative abilities in dry wall would be just as detrimental in penetrating mr bad guy (which is important for lethality).
“I don’t care about studies for my environment and circumstance I will stick to 870 and heavy bird shot.”
Since my previous edit got ate (wtf over?)
you probably should pay attention to studies. they’re important. im not sure if its arrogance or foolhardiness on your part, but good lord.
If a 5.56 has trouble penetrating a couple of layers of drywall why are we using it as a military round? At the very least the Army and Marines should be considering rebarreling their ARs in 300BLK.
I dont think it has trouble penetrating dry wall per se, although it is well known that small and fast cartridges are more affected by materials than slower moving and more dense ones.
That has always been a characteristic of 5.56 really, even reports of it being inferior to 7.62soviet for penetrating foliage (unsurprising).
Barrier penetration was a well known problem even in Iraq, although that doesn’t undue the usefulness of the 5.56 caliber as a general infantry round.
Hmmm, even though open carry of an AR is legal I think sound judgement is in order here and the good doctor did not display a lick of that. I agree with the author that an open holstered pistol would probably do the trick.
Why? Because you don’t like open carrying of rifles?
1. Pistols for open and concealed carry 2. Shotguns for home protection and 3. Rifles to keep all the above from any sort of gun grabbing + battle. Did I open a can or worms or do I get some agreement here?
I didn’t read that in the constitution. I personally am pro-freedom. Not just pro-gun. If a guy wants to protect his home with an AR fine. It would work great:
Defend your home with an AR and you risk shooting outside of your home and maybe injuring or killing a neighbor. Use your brain.
You would be surprised at the penetration capabilities of 00 buck or shotgun slugs, or 9mm ball ammo. Using a gun in your home regardless of type you should always look to be aware of what is beyond your target. I thought you knew this since you are so versed in the four rules:
Yes of course I do that is why my 870 is loaded with bird shot, heavy field loads are quite adequate against an intruder and in my particular circumstance would be safe from the outside to discharge anywhere in the house at any compass heading. You never answered my question about your primary and secondary firearms?
By the way 00 Buck is for farmers on a lot of property or it is also useful for blowing doors open. I wouldn’t use 00 Buck in my home.
You are foolish for using birdshot.
a maximum of 4″ isn’t sh-t for stopping somebody that needs to be stopped. counting on a psychological stop too is like betting your retirement on playing scratch tickets.
Sure, there is a chance of scoring a physical stop with bird shot. Its obviously better than going toe to toe. Still, there are better options available.
Two more questions mister smarty pants…Where is your nearest firearm RIGHT NOW and what ready state is it in? Where is your backup and what ready state is it in?
? Is this a subject change? Diversion of the topic at hand?
Hope this does not violate TTAG policy, but it looks like Steinmetz is no Einstein…..LMAO…..a few of you might get the joke…
A stonemason without a single stone, very sad indeed.
I get so tired of these “in your face” types. I travel all the time, and just want to throw up when I get behind some knothead who has to tell the TSA goons how they are violating one policy or another. Unless you are ready to start a revolution, keep your mouth shut, stop
f(&king with people and use your first amendment rights to elect and speak to your representatives. I have absolutely zero need to show off my right to carry a long gun into an airport or a café or a supermarket. It reminds me of the 80 year olds who exercise their rights not to wear a shirt on a summer day. You can do it, but it makes me puke a little into my mouth when you do . . .
You live in Denver where your balls have already been removed so why don’t you STFU because your state isn’t even CLOSE to be ready for a Revolution!
So you’re pro 2nd…but a 1st killer?
Guys like you are ridiculous. You STFU!
You are the one that is the 1st Amendment killer by trying to tell people what you don’t want to listen to in the TSA if you so much as got involved in a conversation between myself and TSA I would verbally pit you down. Now go back to begging for your gun rights back from the emasculated State of Colorado!
@Scott – where “begging for our gun rights” means “driving an hour to Cabelas in Wyoming for mags” ?
Please, elucidate on how we’re begging for our gun rights? I’ve bought five un-neutered AR-15s since HB-1224; I’m not sure which you’re talking about?
You mean where we’ve already removed three senators (by a lot of votes) for passing anti gun laws (by one vote?) Two ineffectual laws that barely squeaked through, (a bunch of others DIDN’T make it) even with the national force of Biden and Bloomberg?
I swear, this idea that any state where there’s a gun rights fight ongoing is somehow “lost and forsaken country” isn’t helping gun advocacy any – and anyone who thinks that their state is somehow “immune”… give it time. And we’ll be there to rally against it when that happens too, even if you want to throw everyone else’s baby out with the bathwater.
You fight on the front lines, not back at base camp.
Colorado suffered a minor – and probably temporary – symbolic victory by the antis. Essentially two laws that aren’t even being obeyed or enforced – which the majority of even our LEOs don’t support and won’t enforce. (Total number of arrests under either law so far: 0.00) There was unprecedented backlash, and that likely isn’t over yet.
Reports were recently released that the “UBC” law affected something like a whopping 2% of potential background checks. Statistical noise.
And the first time anyone here even gets taken to task, forget arrested, over the “mag limit”, I’ll be sure to let the world know. It’s just not happening.
I’m not sure what your definition of “ball removal” is, but I live here, and I’m just not seeing it. Because on the ground and the gun ownership scene, nothing has changed, except that a lot more people are a lot more pissed off at our legislature.
But gun ownership here hasn’t missed a beat. (We have legal OC and must-issue CCW, by the way.)
I am very happy to hear that! I can admit when I am wrong. I apologize.
Who pissed in your cornflakes? You assume he–and it could be a she–is in Denver, CO, but it could be some other Denver, such as MO, IA, IN, or PA. Or his last name might be Denver. And even if it was Colorado, that doesn’t earn him your pissy little comments. He might be far tougher and smarter than you (and I’d bet he is) Be civil, or be gone.
Can you read? I already apologized for my remarks. By the way I knew where he lives because I can read profiles! Also it looks like my apology is DIRECTLY above your comment, sigh. Getting late there? One other thing to note, “Be Civil or be gone?” Just who the effing hell you think you are? I am exercising my 1st Amendment rights so FO!
You are obviously unaware of the TTAG flaming policy. You see – we try to be civil and educated around here. We don’t run our mouths off with profanity and ad-hominems to other people. You have a right to exercise your 1st amendment rights without prosecution. You have no right whatsoever to come to TTAG and spill out any foul thing you want. TTAG belongs to TTAG. Not you. Zero rights in the comments section. Got it?
Ummm excuse me but I am not “flaming” anyone. I am answering questions, posting opinions and at times having to actually defend myself. If you don’t like my content then don’t read it but don’t start shoving rules done my throat that don’t apply to me just because you can’t stand the fire of intellectual conversation about passionate subjects! I will not have you or anyone messing with my 1st Amendment rights. You can damn well exercise YOUR right to recuse yourself from the conversation.
I live here in AZ and while most people are comfortable with people walking around open carry it only takes 1 or 2 people to say you pointed it or touched it in a threatening manner and you’re going to jail.
Just better to CC.
I’m tired of these idiots carrying rifles into places it makes people nervous.
They are just hurting the cause.
While I feel they should be soundly and rightly reprimanded by people with a lick of sense, I’m not so sure they should go to jail.
Misbehavior isn’t illegal, and stupid isn’t illegal. But I agree that it’s probably better to choose some more efficacious battles.
That’s the advantage of openly carrying a holstered pistol–you aren’t coonfingering it–and someone can’t accuse you of pointing or brandishing if it never leaves the holster. Even a slung rifle may inadvertently be pointed at someone by bending, shifting, etc.
and someone can’t accuse you of pointing or brandishing if it never leaves the holster
Not necessarily. Recently a woman eating with her brats in a restaurant freaked out when she claimed that she was muzzled by a gun in a shoulder holster when the carrier took off his jacket to eat. Of course, the open carrier was not in trouble because he was a detective.
Shoulder holsters are just stupid. People think they are Dirty Harry carrying a .44 Magnum or something? Lol
Actually, shoulder holsters are the most comfortable way to carry when you spend most of your time sitting. You shouldn’t stereotype people who do so.
You’re replying to the wrong person. 😀 Eh, never mind, I see you ran out of TTAG indent space.
You can’t throw a rock in this country without hitting a Starbucks. Who the hell goes to the airport to get coffee?
Dr. Frankenstein? Igor looking for parts?
You go to Starbucks?
I can’t carry an umbrella through an airport without endangering myself and others.
I agree with several of the above. Why do OC enthusiasts/demonstrators seem to prefer carrying AR’s? The poster child of mass shootings and anti-gun hysteria? A handgun, especially in a thumb-break holster seems a more courteous and acceptable way to win over the populous. No reason to rub their noses in it.
The shock factor and attention factor *is* the message. Wrong or right – I guess you could argue that “one gun isn’t more evil than another” and that the idea is that an AR-15 gets the conversation started quicker.
Honestly, I’ve probably been around people OCing holstered revolvers and didn’t even (or hardly) notice. And I think that’s the issue.
I’m still on the fence on “AR open carry”. But part of that is in the analysis – I’m not sure why I feel differently about an AR versus a Vaquero. I’m not sure I should feel differently. But I do, and so does most everyone else. I don’t think it’s rational, so I’m trying to analyze it logically even in myself. And can’t come up with a good answer.
But the fact that most everyone else does, is why they do it. It’s to get attention quickly and powerfully, which is what the good doctor received.
Though honestly, I think i’d feel about the same if someone had a Mosin slung over their back. Something about a rifle says “overt”, whereas a pistol is more … soundly explainable.
Probably shouldn’t be that way, but it is to most folks.
I’m coming around a little on the open carry thing, at least a little more than when we hashed this thing out several weeks ago.
You mentioned “They want to get attention” The problem is they might be getting the wrong kind of attention from some folks. When you want to get your new puppy used to the lake, you don’t just throw him in all at once. You take him down to the waters edge and let him get his feet wet, and then gradually ease him out into deeper water.
Point is, don’t scare people off will tricked out AR15’s, until they have gotten used to seeing folks with a side arm, or something a bit less menacing looking. Remember, those old biddy’s vote!
In Arizona, it’s not the shock factor. It’s the fact that nobody would bat an eye at a handgun. In Texas, it’s because open carry of a handgun is illegal, but OC of a rifle is legal.
RF had an OC license in Rhode Island, so he OC’d. Nothing happened because nobody noticed the gun. In MA, where OC is legal but rarely done, I could tape a pistol to my forehead and nobody would notice the gun.
Honestly, where I am in Colorado, same deal. Or if anything, it’s more likely to strike up a conversation about firearm preference and/or collections than anything.
If I ended up meeting a rancher outside of his property with an AR-15, similar. In the local library, maybe not, but then again probably I’d assume he’s an OC activist after a few seconds of assessment. Body language goes a long way. All the way, in fact.
Little bit of a tangent, but you mentioned OC and Colorado. A few years ago some guys who were OCing happened to run across “Dog” Chapman of “Dog, the Bounty Hunter” fame, and when they went over to them, Dog and wife Beth freaked out and turned them into the cops because they are afraid of guns and don’t want to be around them. The cops laughed and said, “This is Colorado. Of course people have guns.”
My son lives in Larimer County and I open carry all the time because my Virginia permit isn’t honored in Colorado. He used to give me a hard time when OCing my 1911 but since he bought a 686 with a 6″ barrel he has become remarkably silent on the male member front.
A pleasant smile in your mugshot goes a long way in swaying public opinion. FYI.
It helps if you look like this.
Oh Lord, I’m in love again, third time today!
All I see when I gaze at that is “Problem”.
I used to go through this small town where the population never changed.
Every time a baby was born, some guy would leave town!
Considering the current environment of equivalency does this negate the PA shrink who saved lives, including his own? Something smells funny. I’d like more on the background of this guy.
does this negate the PA shrink who saved lives
Only if your name is Shannon Watts.
Just remember that one “awsh1t” erases all the “attaboys.”
TTAG has turned into old men speaking about butter when it comes to the 2nd Amendment. For shame.
Part of his bond agreement is that he has no weapons. Does that include scalpel’s and etc? Or did they just mean guns & etc?
He asked the same question and received no answer.
I live in an open carry state and in a state in which concealed carry is fairly easy with a small expense, unless your are a teacher or staff at our local public high school whose principal will pay your reduced cost safety course fee, if you have hardship with the $40. I don’t know anyone yet who has paraded around with AR-15 style rifle, but I would personally have preferred a holstered handgun, but….
the good doctor did not violate the law, so why all the fuss? He needs a good attorney, and maybe also a good adviser.
And a good smack in the head to get some sense in there.
Why all the fuss? Because a bunch of people from NY, NJ, MA, RI, MN, MI, and CA moved here and insisted on making it more like the sh!tholes whence they came.
You may say he didn’t violate the law, but the police and the complainants beg to differ.
Open carrying a rifle at an airport? Whatever. For Starbucks? Sure. I agree with whoever said the doc was looking for attention.
Yeah man, The Airport does seem like the
wroooooooooooooooooooooooooong place to be making a “statement”
o.O. How do you accidently point a gun at someone. Would like to hear more on this.
It’s called being muzzle swept. If you are carrying an AR or even a pistol in a stupid macho shoulder holster, when you bend over or down the muzzle, that end of the barrel where the bullet exits, could “point” at someone and this is a NO NO! It is a clear safety violation and you can be arrested for it.
…unless you’re a cop. I’m calling FUD on you SM.
Not a COP and if I was I wouldn’t tell you I was. I am very experienced with firearms, I compete and shoot a lot. My girlfriend on the other hand is an NRA qualified pistol instructor and range safety officer. So call FUD if you want to, why do I give a crap?
That was entertaining. We are impressed by your assertion that you are experienced, and all that stuff about your girlfriend that didn’t address Barstow’s statement at all.
Your assertions of experience and qualification mean nothing. Seriously. Watch me do it.
I am Anonymous. I have a PhD in physics from MIT. I am also a world renoun gunsmith. I can machine any gun in existence from a solid block of steel in my shop. I am awesome.
See? It does nothing.
Followed the standard format:
• I disagree with you and you should agree with me.
• Qualifications & Certifications
• Disagreement and why you should agree with me
I also happen to be NRA certified and I hold a range officers credential with the NROI which covers both IDPA and USPSA shooting. If you are ever in Bellingham, WA let me know and I can take you to the local club here, get you a safety check and see just how fast and accurate you are. We also do pin tops, bowling pins, speed steel, bianchi, falling plates, tactical rifle, 3 gun under both USPSA and 3 Gun Nation rules and even SASS which i don’t personally care for. Let me know!
“I am Anonymous. I have a PhD in physics from MIT. I am also a world renoun gunsmith. I can machine any gun in existence from a solid block of steel in my shop. I am awesome.”
let me guess, anonymous,
-is it a custom 1911 with a rare carbonia blue finish?
-While polishing that aforementioned 1911 with your whale oil and walrus hide, do you get back rubs and sweet, helping advice from dyspeptic gunsmith?
-were you in TF101? is that why you are “anonymous”? because you were declared legally dead to facilitate your black ops?
The internet: it makes anybody who they want to be 😀
If that was the case, I know plenty of officers in the Army who need to be arrested. Lost count how many times I’ve been muzzle swept standing in line somewhere. Officers seem to love shoulder holsters.
Nobody has ever said all Officers are smart. My Dad was an Officer in the Army and he wouldn’t have used a shoulder holster for all the Tea in China.
Alright SM, when I said “…unless you’re a cop” I wasn’t suggesting that YOU are a cop, I was saying that muzzle sweeping is a serious thing…UNLESS (the person doing the muzzling) happens to be a cop, in which case no one cares.
As for your qualifications, you sound like someone who shoots a lot of guns. Huzzah. This isn’t an argument about gun shooting, it’s an argument about police officers abusing their powers of arrest. Your bringing up shooting experience is completely irrelevant. You might as well have told me your uncle was an astronaut.
Next time I get muzzle swept at the range I’m going to call the cops to come arrest the offender, or better yet maybe I’ll physically subdue the offender and I’ll do a citizens arrest. I’ll tell them that Scott Macintosh agrees with me, and he’s a guy who shoots a lot of bowling pins, so he knows what he’s doing.
You put your foot next to the OC persons foot that way it gets muzzle swept by their holstered weapon. Then you go back over to the TSA who were “offended” by the OC advocate and receive the $20 they promised.
A friend of mine met this doc recently at a OC function in Phoenix. He’s a huge LGOC proponent. Though a bit eccentric, he seemed pretty rational when he met him. He said the news and police are spinning this story. He didn’t help himself by ….wait for it…talking to police though. 🙁 I wouldn’t be surprised if the mother and 17 year old daughter weren’t from CA. If so, good luck getting them to testify. I doubt this will ever go to trial.
End report from the field. 😉
Where can I find information on these OC functions? I’m local.
I will see what I can find out. I don’t know as I’m in Michigan. 🙂
Info can be found at OCDO AZ subforum and also AzCDL annual meeting October 11 in Phoenix.
Thanks for the information. When it comes to OCing, these tactics are boilerplate for some police and courts.
Doc failed the three S rule…
Wait, so if I have a handgun holstered in the front near my crotch, I sit in a reclined position – or if I sat down with a thigh-holster – and the muzzle of the gun happens to move in the direction of people without my hand acctually being on the grip…. that means I I POINTED IT at people?! ……. WHAT KIND OF RETARDED CAMEL SHIT IS THIS?! o_O
You know this is just some trumped-up bullshit by the “I-Barely-Finished-High-School Patrol” in order to charge him with something!!
My perspective comes from competition where you are disqualified from a match from muzzle crossing a body part. In concealed carry it doesn’t apply but in open carry of a rifle or a shotgun? Yeah it applies then.
Isn’t the difference in competition that you are HANDLING the weapon? In open carry of a holstered pistol or slung rifle, you are not.
Well, let me get this straight: By unintentionally pointing the muzzle of a weapon, without holding it in your hands, you are no danger to anyone, right? And you are not threatening anyone, do we agree on that? And you mentioned it’s against the rules in a competition, so there isn’t actually any law against it, is there??
So – muzzle sweeping in a concealed carry is ok. Because you can’t see it? But – muzzle sweeping with a rifle or shotgun is not ok. How does this coincide with the four rules? It doesn’t agree with the previous statement you made here:
Can we all agree he was stupid for paying $5.00 bucks for a cup of java?
He won’t have to worry about scalpels his medical license is likely on hold. Most states automatically put your license on restriction pending any felony charges. If they don’t the hospital(s) he has privilege at will suspend temporarily & his DEA registration will go under review. Every MD/DO with as little as a DUI gets that in most areas.
“Can we all agree he was stupid for paying $5.00 bucks for a cup of java?”
No, I will say it IS stupid to pay $5 (it’s actually slightly less), but that does not make HIM stupid. It is the decision to charge almost $5 for coffee that you can call stupid – but the coffee is a bit better quality than anything you can get at a gas-station, Dunkin Donuts, McDonald’s/BK, or your local diner’s “crap-in-a-pot” that’s been sitting there all day and is likely some sort of mixture of engine oil and beans. So Starbucks has the means to be able to charge a ridiculous price – maybe not so stupid after all, they’re making a killing – just full of themselves, and maybe a bit “evil.”
I will take Dunkin’ coffee over Starbuck’s any day of the week. Better tasting and not as costly.
Actually I love my morning Kuerig coffee that costs me about $.50. I used to pay for 6 dollar mochas and they made me fat and are too expensive. 😉
Long-time lurker, first-time poster coming out of the shadows.
I can’t help but marvel at some of the reactions to the good doctor’s initiative, as though RKBA advocates should just be nice and never, at any point, push anyone’s boundaries. Other communities that have successfully lobbied for greater recognition of civil rights–I’m thinking of the civil rights and LGB movements–didn’t get the results they wanted by fearing popular backlash or being arrested on trumped-up charges. Gay marriage didn’t become a reality because half the community thought that holding hands in public was too controversial for the antis.
Any 2A advocate who can’t stand with a man who has done nothing more than exercise his natural and legally protected rights is a detriment to the cause. Anyone who believes in the movement should be cheering this man as a hero and ragging on the police and judges for violating his civil and natural rights. Until the sizable faint-hearted minority stops being so damned considerate of what other people think and starts demanding their rights be respected regardless of popular opinion, we will always be the ugly kid sister of other civil liberties movements.
Using Progressive means to achieve Conservative goals is NOT THE ANSWER. As Americans we recognize a process that is stipulated in our Constitution to sway the opinion of others and bring about change. If we use the methods of the Civil rights or LGBT communities then we are not adhering to those standards. Two wrongs do not make a right!
Neither do no wrongs.
I hate to break this to you, but just because you, personally, don’t like something, doesn’t make that something illegal, or necessarily even wrong.
You know that old phrase, “I disagree with what you say, but I defend your right to say it?” Well, that concept actually applies pretty widely. Don’t like open carrying? Fine … don’t do it then. But you don’t have the right – none of us do – to tell anyone else to not do something that is legal to do. That’s the point of the whole legal-illegal thing.
Protesting for the sake of rights is not wrong. The popular opinion is not of greater value than the rights of the individual.
My points are valid, your arguments are useless and I am choosing to not expend anymore energy on you because you are a classic right fighter and I don’t waste my time with that. I now understand why you are Anonymous. Enough said between us goodbye.
Spot on, Knarf! Fair weather patriots are a harmful element that weakens the struggle for re-assertion of individual rights.
Well said. Reading the comments here, the only logical conclusion is that Bloomberg’s money was well spent.
Um, a slung weapon is pretty much guaranteed to point at someone at an airport unless it’s slung barrel down; overhead walkways, y’know. Also malls, buildings with atria et cetera.
EXACTLY, which is why I say open carry of rifles and shotguns IS NOT REASONABLE! A holstered pistol is another thing all together. And the lurker that spoke about the 2nd Amendment is completely WRONG. It hurts the 2A cause when someone open carries rifles and shotguns in public. I would verbally berate someone that I witnessed doing it. I would let them know how STUPID I think they are. This is not war time, this is peace time! When the shooting war starts well then all bets are off!
So… I disagree.
EXACTLY, which is why I say open carry of rifles and shotguns IS NOT REASONABLE! A holstered pistol is another thing all together.
Your opinion is noted. That is all it is – an opinion. The constitution clearly states “to keep and bear arms.” Keyword “bear.” It doesn’t say bear concealed. Or Don’t bear rifles or shotguns simply because some guy doesn’t’ like it.
It hurts the 2A cause when someone open carries rifles and shotguns in public.
This is debatable. Texas folk open carry rifles because it is legal – they don’t open carry pistols because it is illegal. Depends on your jurisdiction where your rights are being infringed. Furthermore if people are more exposed to arms in public then they can be desensitized by the same means. Also, it is done out of protest (obviously). Is it a right or is it not a right? If it is a right then they should be able to legally do so without being harassed law enforcement.
I would verbally berate someone that I witnessed doing it. I would let them know how STUPID I think they are.
How about you discuss the matter at hand rather than assert their stupidity on the basis of?… your opinion of them open carrying and without even knowing them no doubt. If you feel you are dignified in asserting your opinion over them – then they may as well also feel dignified in asserting you are a FUDD.
Wow Anonymous, I didn’t realize you could write. All of your points are reasonable and although I don’t agree with you in all cases I respect your “opinions” and feel that you respected mine. Here in Washington State the shooters I hang out with ALL agree that open carry of rifles or shotguns is bad for our cause but we open carry hand guns on a regular basis. My girlfriend open carry at the gun shop where she works and when she is driving. I close our discussion with mutual respect and slight disagreement. 😉
If long guns cannot be carried in public then the first part of the Second Amendment would be rendered almost moot.
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state,
If the only time the People are present in public armed with long guns is when they are going to actually discharge them then the deterrent value of the 2A would be crippled and the effectiveness of the militia would be severely undercut as the only time they could bear those arms would be telegraphing the militia’s intent. It wouldn’t make any sense in light of the first half of the Second Amendment.
It’s called “reason.” I don’t understand why someone in a time of relative peace would feel it necessary to open carry any long gun in the midst of a large percentage of people that would find it uncomfortable. It doesn’t make any sense and it hurts the 2A cause. Furthermore I think that if you ARE going to carry a long gun you should always keep it strapped onto your person and NOT set it down on the ground like the good brainless brain doctor did in the video. After all, you wouldn’t even THINK about pulling a pistol out of it’s holster unless you were planning on destroying an attacker now would you?
So – If you OC as a rights advocate – your life is over. Especially rifles – oh god the horror! He deserved a felony for this. He deserves to lose his 2nd amendment rights for life because of this. He deserves to lose his job because of this. Got it.
I see the lips moving, but I don’t see the video, the victims’ names or interviews with them. It is hard to imagine a slinged barrel down rifle inadvertently pointing at anyone. The laws of physics seem as suspended as the PHX PD’s credibility.
“…When he walked to the other side of the terminal near the B concourse that is when police say he accidentally pointed the gun at two women, that’s when he was arrested . . . Police arrested Steinmetz on one-felony count of disorderly conduct with a weapon.”
While not debating the propriety of the Doctor’s carry decision, from the televised report and security video, it appears the trio of Gendarmes following him were looking for the slightest reason to effect an arrest. The presence of multiple level escalators may have provided grounds for the “muzzle sweep” felony arrest.
This. Sounds like the police *were* going to find a way to arrest him. They did not want him exercising his rights and educating people.
I bet they even had the right judge picked out for the hearing.
How dare you consider sitting in the front of the bus! We will learn you a lesson about who is in charge!
Yes I agree. Doesn’t it seem almost like entrapment or harrassment?
Rights, sure. But education through terror isn’t a concept that’s really taken hold in this country. I suppose a middle-eastern man could walk around the airport with road flares strapped to his chest, but that “lesson” would probably end the way this did.
Spot on, Dean Weingarten. Government is seeking to punish the exercise of a right and send a message. The intent is to stifle the free exercise of the right to bear arms.
An AR-15 at the airport? Typo in the article, perhaps? Sounds more like brain donor, than brain doctor.
Is there video evidence the rifle was loaded and was accidently pointed at anybody? And absence fo intent is absence of malice. I point my 2000 pound deadly weapon at people everytime I drive.
I re-watched the video on my computer, I had watched it on my phone earlier, and although I still assert that open carry of a rifle or shotgun is not wise and hurts the 2 cause I have changed my opinion about his case. 1. It appears to me that he is trying to make an aggressive point. I don’t think that was wise of him because as soon as he sets the rifle down then BAM they arrest him. 2. There may be a case of entrapment against LE as they surrounded him and created an atmosphere of suspicion which in cases involving prostitution and drug dealing have resulted in the dropping of charges due to said entrapment. 3. He had open carried with his son one other time at the airport so were those the same police officers that confronted him the 1st time? If so then that could create a harassment argument for the defendant. Anyways I think he should be warned, fined and released.
Brain surgeons can be stupid too.
A rifle/shotgun scabbard might be a good solution for these types of OC demonstrations.
Like a holstered handgun, It still makes a statement, but it covers up much of the gun
and the trigger.
Another own goal or a valid political statement?
It was a valid political statement. It’s not one I would particularly choose to do myself. No crime was committed. Government is punishing him for bearing arms. Law enforcement officers aren’t charged for this. The absence of equal application of law demonstrates that the State is attempting to punish him for exercise of a right.