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ATF SIG brace letter (courtesy

COULD THIS MEAN THE END OF THE SIG BRACE FOR AR PISTOLS? the headline at asks. “In a letter to short-barreled shotgun manufacturer feds say shouldering an SB15 could be illegal,” the sub-head suggests. “No, it’s not the end of the SIG Brace for AR pistols,” SIG Brace inventor and manufacturer Alex Bosco told TTAG. “The author needs to learn how to read.” Indeed. The ATF letter above addresses an inquiry from Florida gunmaker Eric Lemoine (of about using a SIG Brace on a short-barreled shotgun. And only that proposal. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the SIG Brace and AR pistols. As Bosco makes clear . . .

“The ATF has cleared us to sell the brace, which was designed as an orthotic device to help wounded warriors or anyone else with limited mobility or strength to fire a pistol,” Bosco points out. “We’ve sold thousands to date; there’s nothing that should prevent us from selling more.”

The letter does raise some interesting questions. The chief of the ATF Firearms Technology Industry Services Branch writes that a short-barreled shotgun with a SIG Brace is only an NFA item if the shooter uses it as a shoulder brace. So . . . you could only be arrested for owning one if the ATF caught you using it improperly.

Let’s see that hold up in court. As Alex puts it, “If you use a toothbrush as an ice pick, legally, it’s still a toothbrush.”

That said, Bosco’s SB Tactical has no plans to attach his brace to a shotgun. Any shotgun. Ever. “We’ve got a great partnership with SIG. We think the brace on their new MPX we will be a huge hit . . . We don’t need to get caught up in this. And we won’t. Meanwhile, if you want a brace for an AR pistol, you can have a brace for your AR pistol.” Truer words have never been spoken.

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  1. While I appreciate Mr Lemoine’s desire to stay off of the ATFs radar, this seems like the perfect example of a question that didn’t need an answer. And the ‘answer’ creates more confusion than the original question.

  2. I continue to stand by my long held opinion of not wanting anything to do with the Sig Brace. This letter is proof that the ruling on Sig Brace will only last for as long as the wind is blowing one direction at the ATF. You want to play mall ninja with your fake SBR (that cost almost as much as a real SBR) go right ahead, but dont come in here crying when the hammer drops. This letter shows that the result is at best a draw right now.

    • I got my M92 AK with the brace for less than $600 after tax. Show me any SBR that costs less than a grand even before the stamp.

      • You’re deliberate ignoring the point, ok sure you can buy guns with these gimmicks already installed, but the cost is just baked into the price of the gun. What would the same gun cost without that brace?

        My point comes from the standpoint of, I own an AR15 and I want an SBR. To get there I have two options.

        1) build a real SBR: either by buying an AR pistol and converting the lower or building a short barreled upper for an existing lower. Engrave my name and location, and pay a $200 to register. Throw in a carbine buffer tube ($35) and a Collapsible stock (my preference is the Magpul CTR so $75, stocks that still work better than a sig brace but maybe aren’t as nice as a CTR/ACR/STR are a load cheaper, but Im doing this right so I stick with $75), Free.99 if I already have a carbine/rifle lower at hand. I am then left with a fully functioning SBR that cost me somewhere between $200 to $300 depending on if I build a lower from scratch or register a lower I already had. I get a premium carbine stock, that is designed to be a stock and can be adjusted for length of pull.

        Now I cant readily take it across state lines, and I agree that is annoying but I have yet to find a single person who actually does this regularly or on short enough notice that they couldn’t notify the ATF, and honestly I would take a 16″ gun if I really wanted to go out of state and didnt have time to get permission. I can do this because I will never have my only AR be a registered SBR, that’s stupid. That would be like having your only car be a souped up race-car that they use as a daily driver, and people who do that do it for the same reason everyone wants an SBR if we are being honest… looks primarily, and the option for enhanced performance in a narrow set of circumstances. The State lines argument I have found is mostly used as an excuse because people like to complain, and or sound cool because after all SBRs mean Operator and everyone likes operating. If we are honest though, it isn’t really that big of a deal beyond the principle of the matter, and you know it so don’t even try bringing that argument in here.

        2) Same as above but I skip the registration and buy one of those sig braces (Cheapest I have seen is $125). If I already hav an AR pistol I am gtg for the $125 ($75- $175 savings over an SBR). I am picky though, because I care more about function rather than looks (which lets be honest the Sig Brace is mostly about looks), so I would buy one of those specially designed buffer tubes that flares at the receiver end so the sig brace sits back closer to what would be a moderately reasonable length of pull. That adds more cost, those buffer tubes are at least as expensive as a premium carbine buffer tube so add another $50 at least to the build. On top of that it is still shorter than normal, and still too short for me, I’m 6’2″ and try as I may I only begin to be comfortable shooting with my stocks in position 3 on a 6 position buffer tube. Maybe thats a personal problem though. So for a modest savings whether I build or use an existing AR in the safe, I have a pistol, that looks like an SBR abnd functions like a pistol with a shitty rubbery feeling improperly fit plastic brace shaped like a stock. Oh, and I may have to throw it all in the trash one day subject to a moody ATF technical ruling. Oh an you cannot use any form of vertical fore-grip, but hey! I can take it to hunt at my friends place in another state wooohoooo!. Yeah, no thanks.

        • Obviously you’ve never used one. It feels and works just like a normal (albeit short and non adjustable) stock. As far as all that other malarkey, I’ll burn that bridge if and when we get to it (which will probably be never). I also didn’t have to wait a year for my gun or put the government squarely up my ass either.

        • Well, I cross state lines twice a week, work 200 miles from home, and don’t trust housekeeping at my hotel not to steal what is obviously a rifle… hence exactly why I’d want a pistol with a brace. The original point opposing yours was that most factory SBRs are much more expensive than just getting a Sig Brace, and not just monetarily. The wait time, registration, possibility of arbitrary denial and the inherent pillow-biting that goes along with getting any NFA item is also a cost. I’d rather not be a pillow-biter for our wonderful gubmint.

        • Add to the good points above that an AR15 pistol is legally a pistol – most states allow concealed or open vehicle carry of a loaded pistol if you have a concealed pistol license. I don’t know of any state where it’s legal to carry a loaded rifle in a vehicle.

        • With a CCW it’s legal to conceal a long gun in a vehicle or about your body in Oregon too. …now I wait for all the other Oregonians who don’t know this to protest. I’d be happy to share the email from OFF stating that position based on ORS.

      • Also I wasnt aware that people even sold SBR’s regularly (a Form 4 transfer). Maybe I am not correct. Either way, I presume it would be cheaper to just buy a similar AK to what your bought but with a rifle stock instead of a pistol with a sig brace, register on Form1 and cut the barrel down to desired length when the stamp comes back. I just cannot believe that I wont find an AK for ~$400 so as to come out even when I am done registering. If you like AR’s buy a Rock River AR pistol and change the stock out ~$100 and register, same deal. Or go to PSA buy a completely built rifle/carbine lower for ~$150 (comes with a magpul MOE stock) register for 200, and buy one of their pistol uppers in the caliber of your choice which currently is ~$399 with shipping, albeit without a BCG or CH so add another $150. There, I just gave you several options for an SBR that are all hundreds less than $1000 even after paying for the stamp. Not sure where you got your numbers from.

    • The ATF also defines a “pistol” as a firearm designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand (as you can see in the first sentence of the pictured letter). So, Tex300BLK, if your intention is to only use things in the manner that the ATF defines things, then I suggest you never fire a pistol while gripping it with two hands. Alternatively, if you have no worries that putting two hands on a pistol turns it into something other than a pistol (redefines what it is), you should also have no worries that shouldering an SB15 on an AR-15 changes the SB15 from its ATF-definition of an “arm brace” into a different kind of object. Especially considering the ATF specifically stated that it does not redefine it and it is legal. Should that change, then, yeah, I’ll probably throw out my SB15.

      • First off have you ever heard the expression “missing the forest for the trees”? I nowhere said I was concerned with the CURRENT ruling by the ATF. I don’t want to be in the position of throwing hundreds of dollars of gear into the trash at some point in the future because someone over at the ATF’s wife burned his breakfast that morning.

        Back to the “missing the forest for the trees” analogy… it means you hone in on one minor detail and miss the overall point of the argument. The Sig Brace is a gimmick designed so that mall ninja’s and people who are too cheap to pay up for real hardware can look cool and do something that approximates but falls short of the real thing. If I put a performance suspension and computer tune on my wife’s Jetta it will outperform an unmodified Jetta, and in the right hands (not mine) it might even give a BMW 3 series a run for it’s money on a track. In doing so I would have spent close to what it would have cost me to get a proper car, and all I really have something that looks “sportier” but is still a family sedan.

        Maybe I’m too picky, or maybe Im spoiled because I live in a place where the only hurdle to NFA ownership is the tax stamp, but I have had my hands on a Sig Brace and pistols that had a Sig Brace on them, and running the math on how much it would cost ME to outfit my AR with one so that I can go short barrel, I say no thanks. The legal issues that may or may not pop up in the future are just another reason I pass. I could SBR my current AR for the cost of the engraving and a tax stamp and have a better looking and more usable rifle than all the people who spent nearly 80% as much for one of these brace thingies. Sig Brace pistol isnt just a mediocre stock, you cant run a vertical foregrip, your length of pull is too short for normal people even with a modified buffer tube, and it looks stupid (although that is personal opinion).

        • @Tex300BLK,
          Your opinions have been noted. Now let me share one of mine with you. The only “Mall Ninja” here is you. Only a mall ninja denigrates what another person chooses to attach to their rifles. You don’t like the Sig Brace, don’t buy one. Have a nice day.

        • @Tex

          First and foremost, I don’t disagree that an actual SBR is physically better. If there were no additional regulation around owning or making an SBR vs. a standard firearm, nobody would ever purchase the SB15. That isn’t the case though, so…

          Laws are always changing. WA just passed some ridiculous gun control stuff, and there have been changes both positive and negative on gun control all over the country in the past couple of years. There’s no guarantee that SBR ownership will continue to be legal in TX or anywhere. I appreciate the possibility that at some point the legal designation of the SB15 could change, but I don’t think it will. I’m also willing to risk the $115 should it happen eventually. I’ve already been enjoying the SB15 as an alternative to SBR ownership for a long time now.

          I find the SB15 to be a perfectly acceptable butt stock. The only real shortcoming for me is that it cannot be instantly adjusted for length of pull. Of course, my go-to AR has a fixed stock on it anyway because it (ACE Skeleton) is the one I like most. Right now I’m testing out an Odin Works buffer tube that allows for a huge range of locked-in positions for the SB15 and it’s pretty dang awesome. LOP for me now is right at the middle of an M4 stock’s adjustment range. I agree that the SB15 is too short when up against the receiver plate, but I’m 6-foot even so it’s probably better for me than you, but not as good for me as for shorter blokes.

          For me, it’s far from mall ninja. Not only is it a perfectly functional butt stock that works for stabilizing a pistol just as well as any other butt stock, but it has allowed me to build a pistol that I can take across state lines, which I often do at least once a week (and often for the express purpose of going shooting, as I live in WA but shoot almost exclusively in ID), and treat like a normal firearm rather than an NFA item. That has many benefits in and of itself, in addition to what other people said about the $200 cost and hassle of getting that tax stamp. I should point out that your argument of the NFA stamp only costing ~$80 more than the SB15 fails to account for the fact that you still need a butt stock on your SBR. $115 for the SB15 is in the same price range as many other halfway decent butt stocks, and ain’t nobody gonna put some generic parts kit M4 style stock on their SBR. When I first built an SB15-equipped pistol, it was because SBR ownership was not legally possible in WA. While I 100% completely and totally planned to register a lower as an SBR when the law changed, after living with the SB15 for the better part of a year before the change I decided I don’t want the hassle of the SBR after all. The “real” butt stock isn’t worth $200 and the other legal issues for me at this point. I know what all sorts of different AR-15 butt stocks are like. I know what the SB15 is like. SBRs are now legal for me. Knowing all this, I made an informed decision to stick with the SB15 in lieu of registering an SBR.

          Honestly, if owning an SB15 is “mall ninja,” then so is consumer SBR ownership. Involved in a lot of QCB room clearing or shooting out of vehicles, are we? I’m sure a 16″ bbl would hinder most SBR owners’ day-to-day Operating. The same desire to shoulder a firearm with a short barrel is the motivation to own either. One’s a bit of a compromise as a shoulder stock, and the other involves hurdles to ownership. How you weigh these things is pretty freaking subjective.

          …also, you can put a vertical forward grip on an SB15-equipped AR pistol (or non-SB15-equipped pistol) as long as the overall length is greater than 26 inches. That makes it a “firearm,” not a pistol, and therefore it can have a VFG. Just don’t conceal it in this config!

    • @Tex300

      Your opinion is being given a big “Thumbs down” by probably hundreds of people every day and by an ever growing list of manufacturers all over the map.

      The verdict is in and the SigBrace is in the running for maybe being one of the most influential products of the past couple years and maybe the decade.

      • You might as well say my opinion is being given the big thumbs down by all the people who got offended when I saif it was stupid to put body kits and trunk spoilers on Honda’s and think they are racecars or because I came in and said 8000 lbs crew cab long bed diesel pickup trucks with huge lift kits look stupid and are absolutely useless off-road, and honestly the fact that “lots of people” disagree with my (and many other’s) opinion that Sig Braces are a gimmick offends me no more than the people from either of the above scenarios would too.

        The Sig Brace is “revolutionary” as much as it is a gimmick that cost about 10 dollars to make and idiots will pay $150 dollars to look cool. This is no different than the nearly $200 Noveske “Flaming Pig” compensator that was advertised to “mitigate concussion” even though they released it alongside an entire line of 13.7″ barrels so that people could pin weld it and have an NFA compliant rifle that looked like a suppressed SBR if they put it under a 15″ hand-guard.

        • You’re basically saying ‘I think you’re all mall ninjas cause I paid more and had to wait a year for the same gun, but I can put a vertical foregrip on mine and you can’t’.

          Read that statement a couple of times and then think really hard about who is being the dumbass.

          You talk about a an overpriced gimmick but you paid $200 for the privilege of putting a stock and vertical grip on your pistol.

        • I mostly like to take a Devils Advocate stance, especially on forums, but credit where credit is due… I audibly snorted while laughing when I read this “You talk about a an overpriced gimmick but you paid $200 for the privilege of putting a stock and vertical grip on your pistol.” its a fair point to make… touche… thanks for keeping me honest.

    • Other than the cost difference and the waiting, pistols with braces are way more flexible. You can travel to other states without having to wait for approval from ATF. And you can carry it conceal in states that only allow CC with pistols.

    • Tex300BLK,

      Some of us live in states where we are unable to own NFA items. Some of us also build our own firearms. I bought a Sig brace for $77 on a 30% off all merchandise deal at an online retailer. I then bought a KAK buffer tube that cost no more than a standard pistol or carbine buffer that was made to go with the SB15. I installed said items on a stripped lower along with an LPK and voila, I have the perfect foundation for an AR pistol. It did not cost me a penny more than a similar lower I built for my AR rifle (actually, it cost less because I used a UBR stock on my rifle). Worst case scenario, I have to dump the brace and have the exposed buffer tube like I would before the brace came out and I’m out $77.

    • I’m just leaving this here instead of replying to each response that was made to you, Tex.

      I understand the usefulness of the brace to anyone who lives in a non-NFA state.


      I agree the brace (Sig or otherwise) is nothing more than a gimmick. Braces are to SBRs what Slidefire is to machine guns. It only exists for people who can’t have the real thing either out of laziness, cost (“The only reason anyone buys a Carerra is because they can’t afford a 911” – Jeremy Clarkson) , or legalities.

      In the end all either really do is draw the eye of people/gov that wish to do us (shooters) wrong, and serve as a toy to show your friends at the range.

      I would like to caveat your cost analysis: Anyone normal size would also have to buy a “K” type grip for the shorter LOP, bringing you even closer to SBR cost.

      NFA hurdles: Get a trust and build (form 1). 90% of your problems have gone away. My e-files for an MP5K clone and a 7.5″ AR cleared in 32 days. I call BS on the “some of us like to build excuse”.

      Back to cost: ARs and AKs may be about even or tipped slightly towards the brace. If you have an HK habit, it is definitely cheaper to Form 1 yourself from pistol to SBR than to buy on a 4 or buy one with a brace.

      A lot of this pro-brace stuff is anecdotal at best and silly at worst.

      Arguing semantics is a gun control play. Stay away from it. We use facts.

      CCing a braced AR pistol isn’t mall ninja, but SBRs are? That is how you end up as Mommy propaganda.
      *In Pa your LTCF covers SBRs. That is by the letter of the law. Doesn’t mean its a good idea.

      Traveling with NFA is typically a two week turn around. I typically know when I’ll be traveling out of state beyond that, and plan accordingly. Besides I have a NORMAL pistol for NORMAL carry, that works just fine for me.

  3. Also worth noting that the ATF relies on the belief that the “brace has been made or remade, designed, or redesigned from its originally intended purpose.”

    It would be hard for the ATF to successfully argue that simply moving the brace from your arm to your shoulder constituted remaking or redesigning.

    The tricky part here is that it would be essential for the brace to remain in its designed condition. The original brace came with two velcro straps that secured it to the arm. Some people have removed these straps as they serve no purpose if you don’t plan to wrap the brace around your arm. I’m thinking that the ATF *might* be able to classify that as a redesign.

    • That’s what I gathered. If I had some time and money I would build one and see what the ATF did. It would be a great way to get a ruling against the NFA (or at least the ATF).

    • Yes, always leave the straps on the brace. If it gets damaged and you want to repair it, its probably safer to restore to original condition or throw it away and get a new one.

    • Keep in mind that ATF believes inserting a magazine as assembling the firearm which is why parts counts for 922(r) include the follower, etc.

      • Or, potentially, the ATF will argue that the manufacturer knew that this would be used a stock in 99% of cases, and the arm brace thing was merely a subterfuge.

  4. The thing about this is that it is a moot point. You currently cannot buy a shotgun pistol with a shorter barrel due to the way the law is written, which means you have to have a barrel that is at least 18″. Why put a sig brace on a pistol grip shotgun when you can just put a real brace on it?

    Sounds like this guy was looking for a SBS loophole and didn’t exactly find it. Technically he could sell it (whatever ‘it’ was, I’d love to see a picture) but I would be nervous if I were one of the first few people to buy one.

    • He found it just fine. His 8.5″ smooth-barreled firearm that’s 27″ in OAL is not an AOW or an SBS.

      What we all didn’t expect was the new pronouncement from the ATF that shouldering a Sig brace makes it a stock.

      • Only if what it is attached to was not considered a “pistol” beforehand… at least I think that’s what they are arguing.

  5. Smooth bore handguns are already regulated as AOW. Adding the brace doesn’t change anything. Adding a stock makes it a SBS.

    • Adding a Spike’s Tactical 37mm flare launcher makes it heavier, and kind of difficult to operate to full-functionality, but, with practice…

      ; P

  6. what a fucking crock of shit. how does me putting something against a different part of my body constitute the device being “made, remade, designed or redesigned”? it doesn’t. fucking thought police in full effect. its amazing how shitty this country is becoming. its ok for the president to bypass law, release terrorists for a traitor but its not ok for a family to pay to have their son released from a terrorist group. and now im told that by letting a device touch a certain part of my body, its now illegal and they need money for it. fucking infuriating.

  7. After reading Mr. Lowe’s article, it reminds be of an old Seinfeld episode…”a show about nothing” or, in this case, “a story about nothing”. The letter to ATF in question was in reference to a shotgun NOT an AR15 pistol. Mr. Lowe needs to learn the art of checking his facts first before publishing an article. His article is nothing more than a blatant attempt to create a “story” where there isn’t one to begin with.

    • This letter is NOT about a shotgun. It’s about a generic smooth-bore firearm > 26″ in OAL. That is the whole point of the letter.

      Now, can you explain to us why shouldering the brace on a pistol would not make it a stock, yet shouldering it on a smooth-bored firearm > 26″ in length WOULD make it a stock? Because that’s the logic you’re promoting, and it makes no sense whatsoever.

      The simple fact is, this letter contradicts a previous ATF letter on the subject, and we now have a potential problem if you want to shoulder a brace. Sticking your head in the sand and latching on to a meaningless difference isn’t going to help, and only confuses the situation.

      • It is about a shotgun and only a shotgun. The nfa was originally designed to remove short barrel shotguns and machine guns from the general market. Pistols and rifles were exempt. The ATF obviously wants to avoid people creating an sbs. That’s why Mr Kingery cautions that his ruling applies only to the type of firearm submitted (in this case a short barrel shotgun).

  8. Jeez, someone stuck a brace on their Serbu Super Shorty, didn’t they? You can’t use that folding pump foregrip with that or it becomes an AOW (if it wasn’t one, already), although a 14″ 500/590 that left the factory with a Raptor grip should be exempt from ATF BS if you stick a brace on it.

    • In the NFA, the wording for AOW specifically denotes a weapon which is carried concealed on or about the person.

      • Wait what? One of the favorite arguments of the Sig Brace fanboys is that they could in theory carry an AR Pistol with a SB15 on it with their CHL…. this not true?

        • Except the pistol with a brace is not what the ATF is talking about.

          They are talking about “spy” guns if you will like pen guns, briefcase guns, anything that does not look like a gun or shaped as one but is still used as a gun.

          However a company I forgot the name of it makes a pen gun but since you have to configure it into the shape of a pistol before you fire it it is not considered an AOW.

  9. Instead of using this tortured logic (pro or con) we should just ask the new Congress to remove SBR and silencers from NFA. At the time the law was done, there were no NICS BC. You can argue that if one can buy a pistol he is a law abiding citizen (by virtue of BC). Why is he becoming a felon by putting a stock on it? It makes no sense.
    And while you are at it, ask for 922(r) removal. It can’t be argued that increase or decreases safety and as such I see no government compelling interest in limiting a constitutional protected right.

      • Probably not, but I’d like to see it, because it would put all the members of Congress on record with a vote, and show us who’s really on our side. I’d bet there would be more than a few who claim to be pro-2A that would vote against it.

    • They will never sign it because:

      1) 922r was supposed to be a mechanism as a ban to try and stop people from building “foreign non-sporting guns” because apparently they are much more evil than domestic ones. Of course they would not bar domestic manufacturing from doing so which has led to cases of good products (G2 trigger for the AK) and bad products (ProMag’s (not to be confused with Magpul P-Mags))

      2) Protects domestic manufacturer’s from actually having to compete. You will not see the NRA, NSSF, The Freedom Group, BCM, Colt, LWRC, Ruger, Smith & Wesson, and a whole slew of other domestic builders/outfits lift a finger to try and get the bans removed because it means more money in their coffers. Why help the competition?

      Case in point in my opinion the MK-107 would have given the AR-15 a run for its money but now we will never know with the Russian ban in place that will never go away like the Chinese one.

    • Governments compelling interest is limiting constitutionally protected rights.

      The BOR and the whole Constitution is like a restraining order for the gov. For all the mocking of restraining orders ability to restrain POG do I often wonder why so many still believe this nonsense would ever, could ever work on the .gov.

      The Constitution was a good idea but it has failed. Restraining orders do not work.

      “Here Mr. Fed are all the guns, all the money and legions of troops at your beckoned call. Now here’s a little piece of paper that says you have to respect my individual liberty.” Sounds crazy? Because it is.

      • +1.

        The BOR is just about useless as a restraining order in the long run if those protected rights aren’t used in defense of the others. It’s akin to when a restraining order is violated but the victim or the courts refuse to pursue the violation. As much as statists like to poo-poo the exercise of rights (ID refusal, refusal to consent to searches, refusing to talk to agents of government, etc), it is the exercise of such that helps protect them all. Ultimately though, the People must defend their rights, with force of arms if necessary, otherwise the BOR becomes just words on a page.

  10. Probably not the best place to really ask this, but I notice they clearly say vertical handgrip on the pistol makes it “not a pistol”. What about the other types of handgrips, like the Magpul angled fore-grip?

    I don’t even have an AR yet, but this opens up possibilities…

    • The Magpul AFG is ATF approved for an AR-15 pistol. It is not considered a vertical fore grip. There is an ATF approval letter. Crazy aint’ it?

  11. So, at what point do we start writing letters BACK to the ATF letting them know they are wrong?

    The power to define and restrict firearms is not granted to any federal authority by the Constitution. Therefore, under Article 10, that authority rests with either the STATES or the PEOPLE.

    That truth aside, their definitions of “pistol”, “rifle”, and “stock”, are all incorrect, as they do not agree with either reality or the entire knowledge base of how firearms are designed, manufactured, and used by everyone from novice to profesional.

  12. “The Sig Brace is a gimmick designed so that mall ninja’s and people who are too cheap to pay up for real hardware can look cool and do something that approximates but falls short of the real thing. ” Tex may have the record for most insults in a single sentence. If only he could have included the later “fanboys” too.

    Blowhards who substitute insult for argument convince few of the undecided.

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