ATF to Bill Nye: Drop Dead


Let’s be honest: anything that promotes a visceral reaction — sex, cars…guns — can grab attention, which is why images and iconography of them are so often used in marketing. And which is why we see such things showing up in advertisements next to otherwise mundane things such as soft drinks and arthritis medications.

So I wasn’t as surprised as I probably ought to have been when James P. Vann, an attorney with the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, delved into the realm of gender fluidity at the NRA’s National Firearms Law Seminar on Friday.

The topic came up during a discussion of recent changes to your favorite and mine, ATF 4473: Firearms Transaction Record, the form prospective new gun purchasers must fill out when purchasing from an FFL.

One of the changes to the form may have been prompted from a question that was coming up with increasing frequency from gun stores: how should gender fluid people answer the “gender” question on form 4473? The question very plainly gives gun buyers two options: “male” or “female”.

“My initial reaction,” Mr. Vann commented, “was to ask: do you really have a problem with that many people coming in who are gender fluid and don’t know how to answer that question?”

But, stoically, the ATF man suppressed his impulses and forwarded the question up the line. People are so paranoid about getting things wrong on official ATF forms, he said with a smile and knowing shake of his head.

To his surprise, though, this idea apparently had traction, and when some changes to the 4473 form were made in October 2016, the “gender” field was no more. Instead, it had been replaced by a new one: “Sex.” Again, though, there are two options: “male” and “female”. Mr. Vann seemed to think that solved the problem to everyone’s satisfaction.

Bless his heart.

Anyone who’s been unfortunate enough to have a conversation about such matters on social media lately well knows that there are more genders than there are spices in Heinz 57 sauce. As self-described science guy Bill Nye puts it in his shall we say “interesting” direct-to-Netflix video, even the biological definition of ‘sex’ is equally slippery to the point of meaninglessness.


Anyway, we can at least take solace in the fact that whatever else we may think of the ATF, thanks to their stoic insistence on what the kids these days call “binary” sex definitions, they’re standing athwart the path of folks like Bill Nye and his ilk, shouting “STOP!”


  1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

    Perhaps they should redefine the choices as XX chromosomed or XY chromosomed?

    1. avatar No one of consequence says:

      ..which would require a modicum of scientific literacy to understand in the first place. With today’s education system?

      1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

        Just put (male) after the XY option and (female) after the XX option.

        1. avatar HogKiller says:

          And F’d Up for the 3rd one. Got it covered. Technically, one of the questions is mental illness so….if they lie on that one this will get them. This makes as much sense as asking “Have you or do you, intend to commit an act of terrorism”.

        2. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

          I always liked the one that asks if you are currently a ‘fugitive from justice’.

        3. avatar Hoplopfheil says:

          Are you a fugitive from justice?
          A: Yes
          B: No
          C: Who told you that?

    2. avatar Pseudo says:

      What about chimeras?

      1. avatar GSteele says:

        They don’t want a picture, they just want an answer . . . (;-)

    3. avatar Tommycat says:

      Interestingly at birth, my chromosomes were XX even though I was born with male genitalia. HOWEVER I acknowledge this as an extreme anomaly, and despite having XX at birth, I have been tested later and currently have XY. And yes, it is a very very very rare condition. Basically the father has all the Y markers in both X and Y chromosomes. Apparently since birth my aberrant X chromosome decided to fix itself. It’s pretty interesting to say the least…

      NOTE: this is not to justify this crazy “I’m a woman trapped in a man’s body” crap.

      1. avatar Te(V)plar says:

        You have chimerism?

      2. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

        Well I’m glad you were able to work it out OK. I was aware of conditions such as yours but I was unaware of the possibility of the body fixing itself.

        Concerning the more common ‘woman trapped in a man’s body’ syndrome; the psychiatric community has a much different take on this than Bill Nye. A couple of weeks ago I read an article about the similarities between this and a condition (that has 3 different unpronounceable names) where people believe that they are supposed to be missing a limb or have some other physical handicap. They’ll go to extremes to get the offensive appendage removed. They’ll beg doctors to amputate. One man rigged up a homemade guillotine and swore that if they reattached his leg he’d cut it off again. One woman thought she was supposed to be paraplegic and begged the doctors to sever her spinal cord. Of course, these people batshit crazy, right? And if a doctor agreed to perform an amputation he’d not only lose his license he’d end up in prison. Yet just about every aspect of this condition is identical to gender dysmorphia. This is what happens when political correctness takes priority over science. (Next week we’ll tackle global warming!)

        1. avatar Rattlerjake says:

          If I ever have to say my gender, I just say “I’m a lesbian trapped in a man’s body”.

    4. avatar pete says:

      It wouldn’t cover everyone.

    5. avatar Hannibal says:

      That wouldn’t solve the chromosomal abnormanlities Nye is talking about.

      Here’s an idea. Why is ‘gender’ or ‘sex’ on there at all? What does it matter to buying a gun?

      1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

        OK, well then they can just add a third option, call it aneuploid. We can narrow it down to 3 at least can’t we?

      2. avatar Swarf says:

        Why is Race on there?

        1. avatar barmbwt says:

          so they can know if the darkies are ‘arming up,’ why else? sad, really.

        2. avatar Rattlerjake says:

          The only question that you should be asking is “Why is there a form to fill out at all?” The ATF is an unconstitutional agency with unconstitutional authority, enforcing unconstitutional laws!

      3. avatar pete says:

        Because both neolibs and neocons think the government is a magic window that if used properly will allow them to give crap to the other side and not have any come back through the other way. And rhetoric about liberty notwithstanding they want to hassle others more than they want to be left alone themselves.

      4. avatar meadowsr says:

        Why is there a form AT ALL involved in buying a gun?!

  2. avatar O2HeN2 says:

    >>Instead, it had been replaced by a new one: “Sex.”

    Sounds more like a “Yes” or “No” question to me.


    1. avatar BigDaveinVT says:

      There should also be an “occasionally” (and possibly “after the right amount of pleading”). Just ask my wife.

      1. avatar GSteele says:

        More like “rarely” or “historically.”

      2. avatar TyrannyOfEvilMen says:

        That’s funny because I was thinking that on the next form I fill out I would cross out both male and female and write-in “More than you!” just to test the “kinder and gentler ATF” hypothesis.

    2. avatar Prudiikal says:

      i work at a sporting goods store. when ever someone asks about the sex option on the 4473, my coworker goes yes please.

      1. avatar Geoff PR says:

        He needs to be more concerned about when someone takes him up on that.

        Especially since they will be *armed*…


  3. avatar OODAloop says:

    The answers should be “Yes, please!” and “No, I side with the British”.

  4. avatar rt66paul says:

    To tell the truth, there really is no reason to ask that on these forms. A woman has the same rights under law that a man has, so it doesn’t matter which sex you are. Why not just take the question down?

    There was a time that a woman had to have a keeper, but that is a long time ago, unless you are talking about the middle east.

    Is there another reason they need to know?

    1. avatar Gov. William J Le Petomane says:

      Seriously? What’s next, remove the race question?

      Actually, maybe just eliminate the 4473 altogether.

      1. avatar johannes paulsen says:

        Yes to the first…and the second.

        THis was my take on the whole nonsense of the race/ethnicity question on 4473:

      2. avatar jwm says:

        Why are race and sex/gender on the form? You have proven ID with your name on the form or they ain’t selling the gun. Why not ask about religious preferences?

        Indeed, why a form at all. They swipe my id for the nics and it tells them all they need to know. Why the extra step of the 4473?

      3. avatar Ben says:

        Yeah, we could remove the race question, without a doubt. Serves no purpose. And true, we should just do away with the 4473 altogether. The criminals already have.

        1. avatar Geoff PR says:

          In the mid 1980s, as I was coming out of a 7-11 at oh-dark 30, I walked past a cop car that was parked there. There was something strange about it, a weird glow inside. As I looked inside, I saw it was a computer screen. So, I asked the cop what it was. (OK, for the moment, spare me the “Never talk to a cop crap, I was 20 y.o. and didn’t know any damn better.)

          He told me it was an experimental computer link to the department database, and offered to demo it. He cautioned me if I had a warrant he would haul me in. Being a 20 y.o. dumbass, I gave him my name.

          He told me I had a warrant for my arrest, and pointed to the screen. There was my *EXACT* name, but two years older than myself. And apparently born naturally very tanned.

          The whole point being, not having it part of the database can lead to more false ‘hits’ on a name entered…

      4. avatar Hannibal says:

        Uh, yeah, let’s remove that too. Because like gender\sex, it has no place there. Or make it optional like SS#

    2. avatar Alan says:

      This has nothing to do with that. It has to do with a database search to confirm the NICS check. The more complete the better the results.

      I love it when buyers opt out of SSN. I always ask are you sure, but it is optional. Then they get a DELAY or Deny, and they don’t know why as they know they have no felonies.

      Well, their real name was John Smith, and believe me, there is a felon out there with their name.

      Here, the SSN, would have cleared them.

      Bare in mind, this is just one example.

      But I can’t wait for Jamie Smith to come in, mark ‘Female’ and get Delayed/Denied do to a gender issue.

      1. avatar Charles5 says:

        I have literally lost count of the number of 4473’s I’ve filled out and never once have I put my SSN on one and never once have I been delayed.

        1. avatar Louis says:

          I never give my SSN, but my name is also not a John Smith name. Never had a problem.

      2. avatar Binder says:

        Why would I ever put my SSN on ANYTHING I don’t have too. What’s the worse that can happen if I do?

        1. avatar neiowa says:

          The progtards will pillage and bankrupt Russivelts’ “system”?

      3. avatar Paul says:

        Your argument is only valid if there are a lot of women out there named Paul.

      4. avatar Jim Miller says:

        My Social Security card specifically states “Not for Identification Purposes” I assume anyone demanding it is up to no good and I furnish a number that was always included with the little dime store kid’s wallets. That was an “official” number issued by the SS Admin for that purpose and instantly recognized as such by them=no fraud. Since I have a CPL, I don’t have to answer that question or suffer a NICS check anyway.

    3. avatar Tommycat says:

      Too right, I think they need to eliminate ALL the questions on the form… then toss the form itself. Oh and that restriction on not getting my firearms shipped directly to me if I’m not a dealer…

    4. avatar Asamurai says:

      “Is there another reason they need to know?”
      It was never a question of denying someone the purchase of a gun because of their sex.
      This question is on the form to add another level of precision to identifying you. Basically there is a statistical likely hood that there is another person with your exact same age, race, hight, weight, and name so this question is one other level of differentiating you.

    5. avatar Adam says:

      Bingo, most of the stuff on the form isn’t necessary and really, the form should be made obsolete anyway. The government doesn’t need and shouldn’t have a paper trail to tell them that I bought a gun.

  5. avatar jug says:

    As in “Sex”?

    Well, at least now and then!

  6. avatar DDay says:

    Bill Nye is such a fraud. Yeah, science guy my ass. He has no degree in science and if you’ve followed him somewhat, you know he’s just a liberal jackass with an agenda and no facts.

    1. avatar JoeyT777 says:

      Well he has a BS in mechanical engineering from Cornell so, ya know, Bachelor of Science so…

      1. avatar Noishkel says:

        True enough. And what’s even better than Dolph Lundgren, the 80s action star, has way WAY more actual scientific training and education than Bill Nye ever had. The man has multiple high level degrees in high end chemical engineering. Like full master degrees level degrees from several universities around the world. Nye has one single bachelor’s level degree in mechanical engineering.

        Ultimately Bill Nye is no real scientist. He’s just an anti christian actor and activist with a degree he couldn’t use in the field he trained for. At least with Lundgren the man did all his work then got into acting. And at least he doesn’t trying to use an appeal to authority fallacy as a career.

        1. avatar Roymond says:

          If he didn’t have a degree in the field, Boeing would not have hired him, and he likely wouldn’t have made the significant contribution to the 747 that he did.

        2. avatar Tommycat says:

          Raymond, I’ve worked for Boeing… Have you? Might want to step back on that claim a tad 🙂

      2. avatar Tommycat says:

        You can get a Bachelor of Science in English Literature

        1. avatar Jacob from Upstate NY says:

          Heh, I have a bachelor of science in Ancient Near Eastern History and a Bachelor of Arts in Chemisty (and a Ph.D. in chemistry as well).

        2. avatar BobProg says:

          Criminal Justice Bachelor Of Science…and I did not take one class that required me to mix chemicals in a lab, look through a microscope, or dissect an animal. In my opinion, “science” is a word used too often to describe a degree.

        3. avatar neiowa says:

          And THAT is how you achieve a 99% “consensus” of “scientists” that believe the religion of man caused global warming/climate change/whatever.

      3. avatar Ad Astra says:

        A BS in Mechanical Engineering yet he goes on and on about climatology and biology lie he was a leading researcher in those fields when at best he has the equivalent of undergraduate training in each. And welders like me with our paltry associates degrees and certifications deal with plenty of mechanical engineers that can’t seem to account for things like cyclic loading and thermal effects.

  7. avatar jwm says:

    Sex? Only product I’ve ever used that was better than the advertising claimed.

  8. avatar Noishkel says:

    Heh! I actually have that shirt. X3

    But yeah, I watch a few YouTube Alt-light/civic nationalist people (Sargon, Styxhexxenhammer666,
    Stefan Molyneux, etc) and they’ve all talked about Bill Nye’s latest train wreck. And I even had the misfortune of actually watching that video. It is gorram SJW cancer and full of more cringe than anything I’ve seen in years. Part of me almost wishes Nye would actually talk about guns once in this awful (hopefully) one season mistake; just too see how far he down the leftist rabbit whole he would take it.

  9. avatar Norincojay says:

    Look at your drivers license. If it says male there you go. If it says female theirs your answer. Simple enough for a defense in court if you’re confused and don’t know what’s on your birth certificate. Sex and race doesn’t need to be on there. Just more ways to be counted and catalogued.

    1. avatar Hannibal says:

      Driver’s licenses can already be changed to whatever gender you identify as; it won’t be long before the even MORE special snowflakes get 52 more options to put on there.

  10. avatar ActionPhysicalMan says:

    My wife showed me that Bill Nye video a few days ago. The song was even worse than any musical tragedy Britney Spears inflicted on the world. I find it hard to fathom why the audience didn’t flee or protect themselves by cutting the power or something.

    1. avatar BlackoutFan says:

      Worse. They clapped and cheered at the end.

      One can ONLY hope that it was because it ended.

  11. avatar Leadslinger says:

    The next job for TSA agents? Just making sure at the gun store?

    1. avatar samuraichatter says:

      That is a genetic female by the name of Anne Carlisle.

      “I did have small parts in big movies. I played a transvestite in a Crocodile Dundee. He didn’t want to touch a man, so I was a woman playing a man playing a woman. I still get residuals for that.”

      I’ve spent some time in Thailand so I am more concerned that most about this kind of thing 🙂

  12. avatar maxi says:

    Wow, first time the ATF does something right. But to be honest, if they would have accepted some crazy gender bullcrap Trump would have just shut them down for good.

  13. avatar Joe R. says:

    “People are so paranoid about getting things wrong on official ATF forms, he said with a smile and knowing shake of his head.”

    A unilateral paranoia apparantly. Just your ahole neighbors needing a job Fing you with supposed impunity.

    BTW, what if you feel your “fugitive from justice” status is fluid?

    What if you wake up one day and realize you’re late in grasping that you’ve succumbed to the false sense of security that the ATF&E was selling as a slow tyrrany power grab?

    If you needed to end your current US Government, per Paragraph 2 of the Declaration of Independence, what sex would you select on the Form 4473 ? How’ bout iFu<KEd ?

  14. avatar Matt in FL says:

    That video is just BAD.

    I’m somewhat indifferent to the message, but damn, the song and dance is just horrible. Like middle-school talent show horrible.

  15. avatar MouseGun says:

    Bill Nye is an old burnout trying desperately to regain relevance by siding with the loudest and most obnoxious voice in the room.

  16. avatar Ralph says:

    You folks with youngsters at home, I have a question: would you let Bill Nye babysit your kids?

    Neither would I.

    But I would let Mr. Wizard (Don Herbert) baby sit. If you’re too young to remember Mr. Wizard, you missed something. Even Bill Nye admits that Mr. Wizard started it all. And Herbert was a war hero to boot.

    1. avatar Ed says:

      Mr. Wizard truly was awesome.

    2. avatar TX_Lawyer says:

      My biggest problem with Mr. Wizard was he came on way to early where I lived.

  17. avatar Roymond says:

    They could reduce the form to three questions:

    1. Can you hold a gun steady?

    2. Can you see well enough to put the sights on target?

    3. Do you plan to kill anyone with a gun?

    No more needed — no name, no address, no age, and definitely no prying into private biological matters.

    1. avatar neiowa says:

      Are you legally present in the US?

    2. avatar RonC says:

      Write the 4 basic rules of gun safety in the space below, or list the date and location of your training:

  18. avatar Shire-man says:

    I’m totally cool with the nihilistic conclusion of nothing meaning anything. Its just this road to get there where anything means everything and everyone is so goddamned hypersensitive over it all is unbearable.

  19. avatar strych9 says:

    I’m waiting for the polyamorous, pansexual, non-binary, genderqueer, fox/dragon-kin furbaby movement.

    It’s coming and it will be epic.The lulz will be like manna from heaven. Praise Kek!

    I know this road leads to hell, but it sure is entertaining and leads to great Encyclopedia Dramatica entries.

  20. avatar Aaron M. Walker says:

    1.) Add to ATF FFL 4473 :” Are you a Snowflake, or a Cupcake?!!?”

    2.) Add: ” Are you, or have you engaged in any SJW behavior ?!?”

    3.) Add: “Are YOU , or have you suffered any PTSD’s episodes simce the election…If so, explain in detail….Dates, and times…”

  21. avatar Chris Dumm says:

    Am I the only one here who spotted the WFB, Jr. reference?

  22. avatar Aaron M. Walker says:

    Bill NYE the Eugenics guy ! Sponsoring Birth control licensing similar to the draconian authoritarian communist country “The People’s Republic of China…..”

  23. avatar Hoplopfheil says:

    I propose a new section for the form.

    Dip your “sex junk” in ink and slap it on a blank sheet. That will serve as a replacement for the gender/sex checkbox.

    1. avatar surlycmd says:

      If the ink is purple, I’ll leave them with a mushroom stamp on the 4473.

      1. avatar jwm says:

        L the fuck OL.

  24. avatar Cadeyrn says:

    I know it would mean an extra box which means an extra database entry, but if you need an answer, wouldn’t the easiest thing be to ask for

    * Sex at birth
    * Current sex

    Now, having said that, I have to follow up with: when it’s put that way what the hell business is it of the ATF to know anything about your race, sex, religion or state of circumcision?

    So, let’s not add boxes. Let’s remove some boxes.

  25. avatar bob says:

    Where can I get that tee shirt????

    1. avatar jwm says:

      Just so long as you understand she’s not included in the deal.

    2. avatar surlycmd says:

      Bad Idea T-Shirts has them.

  26. avatar TFred says:

    Race and Sex are two of the most obvious, hence, earliest useful bio-identifiers. Other obvious ones are height, weight, eye color, hair color, then as technology advanced, we added fingerprints, retina scans, and finally the ultimate bio-identifier, DNA.

    So where are we heading from here? I guess it depends on your world-view, your faith in government, and perhaps even in your interpretation of the book of Revelations. I fear the day when a DNA sample can be collected, sequenced, stored and compared to a database at a point of sale. And we thought it was a tough call to provide a SSN?

    The most ironic thing about Bill Nye, if he were asked to debate a mechanical engineer on the topic of climate change, he’d likely decline, claiming that his opponent was not qualified…

    1. avatar neiowa says:

      If this isn’t the NSA then they have missed ONE trick tapping into “tech”.

  27. avatar VSN says:

    Use whatever is on their government-issued id.

  28. avatar LHW says:

    Let the snowflake lawsuits begin.

  29. avatar The Rookie says:

    I identify as a short-barreled shotgun. Do I need to register myself with the ATF?

  30. avatar anonymoose says:

    Just don’t order the futanari alfredo.

  31. avatar Bob says:

    Cracks me up at all the people who are too afraid to put their SS number down but have no problem with a photo copy of their drivers license, full address, race, creed, color, sex, favorite food, etc…

    If the ATF want to find you, they have plenty of ways to do so, not having your SS number isn’t going to hold anyone back.

    1. avatar binder says:

      Its not the ATF people are worried about, it is the FFL. Again, why would people want to have their SSN out there any more than necessary.

      1. avatar TX_Lawyer says:

        Give me your driver’s license, and I have your social.

  32. avatar JimPA says:

    just found out i raised my sons right.

    at the liberal institution of higher education he attends, a professor announced that there are 37 recognized genders now. my son announced to the class: “38. I self-identify as an apache attack helicopter.”

  33. avatar pg2 says:

    Bill Nye, the fake science guy. He’s a face of the global elite and the social engineering they are imposing on the worldwide population. Everything from GMO’s, global warming, vaccines, population control, you name it. He’ll sell propaganda disguised as “science” to condition people into willingly giving up their rights in the name of the greater good.

  34. avatar Oliver says:

    My gender temporarily changes from male to female when the men’s room is occupied, then back again. Weird.

    1. avatar Scott Wardwell says:

      Yeah I know. I hate that when it happens.

  35. avatar Kevin says:

    In my case, I’m not just a woman trapped in a man’s body. I’m a lesbian woman trapped in a man’s body. All I can think about is other women! I’m so confused? Can I go into the women’s locker room? Will I get shunned for staring at women? Bill Nye, Help me, please!

  36. avatar Scott Wardwell says:

    So Bill Nye could be the “Science (Gender-Fluid) Chick”?

  37. avatar Jack says:

    Why do they need to know my gender? Why do they need to know the serial number of my gun if this isn’t some sort of back door registration scheme? Why do they care how long the barrel is? Why do I have to get their permission to attach a noise reducing safety device? Why is there even a government agency who’s only job is to infringe on my God given constitutionally protected rights?

  38. avatar J- says:

    Until the State of Alabama puts the wrong gender on your driver’s license, then you have to explain why what you put on your 4473 doesn’t match what is on your ID.

    I offered to prove my maleness at the Cabela’s gun counter. They declined and decided to take my word for it.

  39. avatar Pascal says:

    Since many on the Left love their 3 letter government and pseudo government agencies I would like to note that the WHO considers people who are Trans binary fluid as having a mental defect or disease.

    I will go so far as to say that many of today’s yoots do not care one way or another either but social peer pressure and the need to be part of the Borg has them lining up like lemmings going into the sea lest they be ostracized and followers removed from their favorite social media addiction should they choose to think differently than the Borg.

    IMHO, we should allow the Left to keep pumping social issues so that in the next round of elections they can be blamed for the same, not focusing on the economy.

  40. avatar ozzallos says:

    I Sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter.

    1. avatar Ad Astra says:

      I”m a main battle tank trapped in a man’s body.

  41. avatar Robert says:

    Just add a third choice for “confused snowflake”, and make that one an automatic disqualifier. I don’t believe in discriminating against anyone for how they dress, or choose to “express” their identity, but it seems to me that anyone who is unable to correctly identify their own biological sex is likely unqualified to go armed.

  42. avatar Tom says:

    The form should only have a place for a finger print. They already know more about me than I do.

  43. avatar Pg2 says:

    More “science” from the science guy

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