Gun Save Life New Shooter Training
Courtesy Guns Save Life

By James E. Oliver

“What’s the best advice for a new gun owner?” is a question I sometimes get at dinner parties, or from new clients. In those situations, I generally get a little background info from the person that guides my answer. For purposes of this article, I’m going to assume that the new firearm owner has no military, or other weapons handling experience.

If that’s the case, then my advice is that every firearm owner absolutely requires basic gun skills training by a certified instructor in the gun owner’s home state, or state where he/she will be carrying. I emphasize “home state” training because most reputable firearms instructors will include training on local gun laws.

We’ve all seen the memes and posts by the anti-2A crowd stating that only police or military service members should be allowed to carry guns. That’s not an uncommon opinion, especially here in the People’s Republic of Western Washington. In all of my gun trials, jurors have cared deeply about whether a shooter was properly trained, and whether he acted in conformity with that training when he drew or shot.

I recently tried a brandishing case in which my client, a former Navy Master at Arms, was accused of flashing his SIG P320 to stop an attacker. Fortunately, most of what my guy was accused of doing was tactically and legally sound when he drew his pistol to stop a younger and more aggressive man from assaulting him.

The jury believed that my client should have retreated (it was a Seattle case), but they still acquitted him of all criminal charges. They felt that he used the least amount of force necessary to prevent the altercation from escalating.

They liked that he first issued a warning, was mindful of what was downrange, and spoke authoritatively about his training and desire to not hurt anyone. His training was essential to getting the acquittal.

I, like many shooters, am a firm believer in the old adage “I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by six.” I’m also a believer in hedging your bets, so if you’re going to own a firearm, then get training and shoot regularly.

Follow up on that training with more training, and more shooting. If I could give you two pieces of advice, it would be to also develop a relationship with an experienced gun attorney before you need one.

 

This article originally appeared at armedcitizensnetwork.org and is reprinted here with permission. 

 

123 COMMENTS

  1. Amen…and more and more…and practice… perfect practice makes perfect. And, don’t talk to anyone except your attorney, we have a right to remain silent, we need to remember to use it. Let’s not win on the street and gaff it in the Court. Best article I’ve seen in a long time. 30

      • I don’t’ see your problem. I’m a reloader and I laid up enough powder and primers over the last few years to last me many more.

        You would be amazed at how reasonable it is from a money perspective. 8 lbs of powder is $150 and is enough for 14,000 rounds.

        14,000 primers at old prices would be $420.

        So for $570 you have stocked up on enough of the difficult to get parts for 14,000 rounds of 9mm.

        Not bad, when you consider that that currently buys you about 500 rounds of 9mm.

  2. First rule of rule of survival, don’t panic. Training wide competence, competence aids confidence, confidence aids in not panicking. Don’t practice until you get it right, practice until you can’t do it wrong.

  3. The legal training is a great idea and I wish state PD’s would release (for free) a video for ccw holders that go over all the local minutiae that can get well-intentioned people in trouble. Storage laws, castle doctrine, duty to declare to law enforcement, best way to handle traffic stops to avoid pucker factor on both sides, brandishing, duty to retreat, when it is ok to cross state lines to use a range and when not, etc…so many legal booby traps out there that shouldn’t be that only affect folks trying to do everything right.

    • I would not trust what the local or State PD has to say on the subject. Too often they are way behind the curve when it comes to the law, or they hold the opinion that no one but them should be armed. I’ve seen that happen. Their job is simply to arrest whoever for whatever, and you get to argue your case before a judge. They are not lawyers, or judges. They are cops. Period.

      In MS right now, we have a case that has gone up to the State Supreme court about exactly this kind of thing, involving certain county sheriffs that object to the State laws about carrying.

      • laws are constantly changing…join the NRA…and religiously read their literature and updates…it’s a legal minefield out there…

      • When NH went to permitless concealed carry in 2017, 2 different law enforcement officers wrote articles “informing” new carriers of where they could legally carry that completely missed the federal Gun Free School Zones law (one also missed NH’s preemption law that prevents school districts from making restrictions).

        • Its interesting that you mention this. Local NH people seem to completely miss the fact that you need a P&R license to carry within 500 or 1000 ft of a school. (I forget the federal law).

          Either way, its good that they still offer it to residents and non-residents as an option.

          Though realistically, nobody who was otherwise obeying the law has ever been arrested or prosecuted for the federal law.

          For example. You are driving by a school while carrying in NH without a P&R. A cop pulls you over for speeding and you stop in front of a school.

          He sees your NRA sticker and asks if you have a weapon in the car. You reply “yes sir”.

          He arrests you for being within 1000 ft of a school.

          This has never happened. Though in theory its a risk for every NH, ME, and VT resident who chooses to (lawfully) carry without a license. (since the fed law exempts state license holders)

        • That and reciprocity make it well worth the $10 and single-payer application form every 5 years.

          Law was probably never intended to actually do anything besides let politicians claim that they “did something” to make schools safer.

        • Don in CT, can you cite that statute? I live & carry in Maine, and I’ve always had a CC permit, despite ‘constitutional carry’, precisely because I heard you should have one of you got pulled over near a school campus, but I’ve never been able to find a statute that actually states that. I ask LEOs here, too, and none of them seem to be aware.

  4. Completely disagree about requiring training from an instructor. Gun safety is incredibly simple, just follow a few simple rules and understand a few things related to function such as clearing a gun includes clearing the chamber as well as the magazine. Follow, follow, follow those rules and eventually it becomes habit.

    Even good stance and grip can be done without an instructor. I’ve done it myself through years of trying different things, reading up online and watching videos and lots… lots… LOTS of practice.

    • In fairness, what the author was talking about was potential jury perception, which may or may not have much to do with objective reality, but their decision is legally binding nonetheless.

      • The part where he said getting training was required was before he even mentioned anything about using a firearm in self defense or juries. But yes, in that case you want to CYA and do everything you can to make yourself as appealing as possible to the jury.

      • Got my attention when the author stated his client had testified to his training and capability. Sorta goes against the “say nothing” mantra.

        • That “say nothing” is in regard to talking to police. Unless you are a bad guy, you want to talk to your lawyer, and it would be a good idea to be able to document the training you received with a paper trail. That said you are better off if you are defending yourself from a bad guy where the DA and juries don’t suck. Remember the bad guy chooses the time and place, if you aren’t there then he isn’t your problem.

        • Rather thought “say nothing” included not taking the stand. Could be misapprehension on my part, but the article seemed to indicate the defendant testified before the jury.

        • “Any self-defense claim won’t get very far if you refuse to take the stand during your trial.”

          You’re saying asserting an affirmative defense doesn’t require the prosecutor to prove you didn’t act in self-defense?

        • To J: Sam has it right. In all fifty states now the prosecutor has the burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was NOT acting in self defense when that defense is offered. but if the “victim” is willing to lie about what happened, e.g. that he was minding his own business when the defendant whipped out his gat and threatened him, then the defendant, absent witnesses,, will likely have to testify.

          A related price of advice is this: If involved in a DGU, call 911 and report the incident. Bad Guys up to no good have been known to call in a report when confronted by a gun wielding assailant/defender, and if the defender doesn’t call in, then the police have only the bad guys recitation of the incident, and they will come looking for the defender. You don’t have to say much, just that you were threatened and pulled /fired a gun because you were in fear for your life. Trite but effective.

        • Rusty, your suggestions (paper trail, etc) would seem to provide evidence that you were intending to kill someone and wanted such evidence. I’m not sure such would reliably be beneficial.

    • L,

      For better or worse, most people in our society love credentials and formal training. Your personal training and self-assessment, while exemplary, carries very little weight with most jurors. Formal training is the key to a jury seeing you in a more favorable light.

      And after typing this comment (before the few minutes to edit has expired), I see that your comment above reflects the same idea.

      • Hmm. Now this is interesting. I am the real uncommon_sense who has been posting on TTaG since about 2012. I have no idea how someone else was able to use my moniker AND MY ICON.

        Oh wow, not I see what happened: my comment above is from 2018. How is that possible? Is this a recycled article???

        • U_S, you know better than I, but I don’t recall that icon that far back, thought you’d only had it a few months?!

    • L, your comment is the perfect example of why people should not take advice online. Yours is the worst advice possible. It’s stupid and irresponsible.

    • Dude, you COMPLETELY contradict yourself here:

      “Even good stance and grip can be done without an instructor. I’ve done it myself through years of trying different things, reading up online and watching videos and lots… lots… LOTS of practice.”

      Unless you were watching videos of birds feeding and reading about crochet you were indirectly being trained by an instructor.

    • Whyzzat? What good is it? My son just returned for safekeeping the Python I gave him 20 years ago after purchasing it in 1972. I still do not know the S/N, don’t intend to write it down now. I wouldn’t care if it had none.

  5. Mr. L ‘Years of trying different things” could have been years of doing things right, had you learned the right way early on. I coached elementary wrestlers for a long time, I told all the first graders, If your teacher tells you CAT spells dog, all the practice in the world will still cause you to loose the spelling bee. FIRST. Hopefully as early as possible, learn the proper way, then practice.

    • In doing something incorrectly before correcting it, you understand why right is right and wrong is wrong. Doing something because someone told you isn’t the same. I’d rather understand than know. Experience is the better teacher for me. Just my .02

      • You are certainly entitled to your *opinion*, but multiple studies have proven that it takes far more repetitions of a task to unlearn incorrect behavior than to learn it correctly in the first place. As a Certified NRA instructor and an Associate level PSIA ski instructor I can see from many years of experience that it’s much easier to teach a “green” person without previous experience to ski or shoot than it is to reteach one with bad habits already ingrained.

        Presumably, “learning” from YouTube videos also presupposes that the dude doing the video actually knows what he is doing. That is seldom the case.

        • Very true, and the Army has had a similar experience. At this point, a not-insignificant number of top scoring recruits in basic training have zero prior shooting experience. No bad habits to unlearn….

        • Unlearning is difficult, I can guarantee it. I taught myself in the early ’60s, have had a devil of a time learning to keep my finger off the trigger. OTOH, when I entered the service in 1969, nobody could come close to me with rifle or pistol, that story about basic sounds pretty fishy. 15 years later I could still whup the entire Air Police training class with rifle or pistol after not firing anything for several years. Because I did. My first qual with M16 the sgt in charge accused me of misspending my youth at the dump with a .22 shooting rats, I had to confess he was not wrong, still made Expert.

    • “Interesting….guy drew his pistol and gives a ‘verbal warning’?”

      In general, one could say that “giving” a warning is no different from launching a warning shot – threat was not imminent. However, all law is local. Need an attorney who understands the local terrain, and what “sells” a jury.

      However……

      formal training could bite you if the prosecution takes the tack that you had plenty of training, and thus you knew better than whatever, making you doubly guilty.

    • If I can draw my weapon and yell stop, and the attacker turns away, that is an awesome outcome considering the other scenario.

    • Yes, drawing your pistol and holding at low ready while loudly saying “get back, I have a gun and will defend myself” to the group of thugs following you is recommended by authorities.
      I refer you to the latest CCW safe podcast where lawyer Don West suggests that exact course of action when a group keeps following you and crossing the street when you cross.

      • Sounds awful reminiscent of cases where defender has been prosecuted for “brandishing”. Thanks, but no thanks, I will stick to attempting to avoid, even giving verbal warnings, but if I draw my weapon I intend to fire, not wave it around. On top of which, in my current state of health, it would be pretty much child’s play to take it from me unless you had a few holes in you.

  6. I am also a lawyer, and I disagree. The training I received from my father, who qualified as Expert with a rifle in Army basic training, has been quite sufficient. No certified instructors have been needed.

      • As a lawyer, he can learn the law on his own. As to shooting, there are hundreds of articles and videos on line from every Tom, Dick and Harry, including some of the best shooters out there with decades of experience.

        • Really????? You think youtube is a good substitute for real training? You have just proven my point yet again to not take advice online. This is why each generation is now regressing and getting dumber.

        • d must be a firearms instructor trying to drum up business. When it comes to the basics, articles and videos are more than sufficient if they get you hitting your target with reasonable accuracy, which for me is a hand’s spread at fifteen yards with a .45 or a compact 9 mm. Force on force or “tactical” training is another thing all together, and yes, in person training is critical. But that kind of stuff is not for all of us. Time, money, travel distances, physical fitness, age, and more make such training not for everyone, and not even vaguely necessary for the vast majority.

        • Lots of places right here in U.S. where such training is not available/downright illegal, or prohibitive in terms of usage of irreplaceable ammo. And you do not have to be a certified operator in order to defend yourself. Most of us will never need to even think of drawing. I recall news event of a guy in his 80s defending himself and his wife in their home by killing an intruder with the first shot he had ever fired in his life.

    • My God man how many gunfights and legal aftermath have you survived!!

      Get training for everything you do, get that certificate, whether a forklift or a pistol.

  7. Concealed carry insurance is not a bad thing, at all, to have. No matter how ‘in the right’ you are, you may end up in court like this fellow did — for ‘brandishing’ a weapon. What did that cost him to exercise his right to defend himself — and he didn’t even shoot the guy? Yet he ends up in court.

    I got the USCCA insurance a few months ago. I read about enough situations — this one is a perfect example, it seems — where you’re clearly, unquestionably in the right — and you end up in court. The thousands of dollars in fees begin. Doesn’t matter if you’re trained, or whatever. This guy was. And he ended up in court.

    I carried for quite awhile without the insurance. I’m glad I have it now. No, I’m not a pitch man for USCCA. There are other carriers. I’m just glad I have it. If it happens, at least you’re not alone.

    • It’s looking more and more like liability insurance is a good idea. Lets’ hope the powers to be don’t mandate it like car insurance because it’s going to be MORE expensive if they do.
      I see a ridiculously high level of coverage so the lawyers can feed along with conditions that would make it hard to carry anywhere and even harder to make a claim if you cleared leather.
      The insurance business is not there to pay claims it’s there to collect premiums. But cops have their union, qualified immunity, a 3 day get your story straight period, and friends on the force. We don’t have shit. So in the absence of that safety net carry insurance is the next best thing.
      I suggest carrying a card for a good attorney. I’ve got one and he can do federal cases. Not cheap but he’s good. And if I call him it will be money well spent.

      • “It’s looking more and more like liability insurance is a good idea.”

        Not so sure on that one.

        Isn’t “liability” an admission or determination of responsibility-guilt?

        That feeds the Leftists the idea that all gun carriers are nothing more than potential murderers…

        • “Isn’t “liability” an admission or determination of responsibility-guilt?”

          Just like automobile, business and personal liability insurance.

        • The term “carry insurance” is now ingrained in the literature but it is incorrect.
          Most of the carry insurance products are not insurance at all.
          They are a prepaid legal agreement.
          They a contract to pay your legal bills if you have to defend using or brandishing a weapon in self-defense.
          This is a huge advantage as they are not subject to the supervision of a state insurance commissioner.
          The only carry insurance products that were actually insurance was the one issued by the NRA which is now out of business and this new X insurance.

      • USCCA is NOT “liability” insurance, but personal insurance if you are involved in a DGU, providing coverage for attorneys fees and costs. MOST liaibility coverage (including the general liability coverage of a homeowner’s policy) will NOT defend you in a criminal court at all, and will probably DENY coverage for a DGU under the “intentional acts” exclusion in the policy (because you intended to shoot the “victim.”) It is likely the law in every state that one cannot insure against one’s own intentional misconduct–a point overlooked by legislators demanding that gun owners carry liability coverage with a limit of !,000,000, such that liability carriers will deny coverage far more often than they defend and indemnify. Insurers will typically only cover for injuries due to a negligent discharge.

    • I have USCCA Insurance. I’m not promoting them, it’s who I have chosen. My friend has US Law Shield. You must have carry insurance!
      Period! You could lose everything to a pimply faced little bitch trying to make a name for themselves. Protect yourself and your family.
      That means more than just your primary means of self defense.

      • When we have to have insurance to carry a firegunm all is lost. License, Registration, and proof of insurance please. Fck that , fck that double double.

        • I’m not saying I like having to have insurance, but in today’s climate being without it just means you can lose everything. The only one looking out for you is you. You’re just another number to a DA looking to put in his “Win” column.

      • I carried 4-5 decades without carry insurance, mostly because there was no such thing, at least so far as I knew. I’ve been with USCCA for quite a while, probably will be for the rest of my life, they have ALWAYS come through for me! That’s a joke, I’ve never needed them, but it’s nice to know they are there.

  8. Police automatically get 72 hours in which to “get their story straight” after a shooting, whether in uniform of off-duty. No such “right” exists for the ordinary citizen who is involved in a justified “use of force”.
    The best course of action for a civilian in such a situation is to request medical attention as soon as the cops arrive. This will delay their questioning, as one can state that he is too “shook up” to talk about the situation. Get a lawyer and SAY NOTHING…

    • “request medical attention as soon as the cops arrive. This will delay their questioning,”

      Nice idea, but….

      plan on being taken to the ER in cuffs. Requesting medical attention will not delay an arrest.

      • No but when under the care of a physician you can avoid being in their little room with video cameras and no bathroom breaks for 3 hours. When your attorney shows up the cuffs can be carefully removed and he can discuss what happened with the government representatives.

        When a round leaves a barrel the fun begins.

        • I dont know where people get this idea that police have days to come up with a narative. If we get into an OIS webhave until the prosecutors office investigators get there. Statements will be made as soon as possible. You also have to make a statement to Internal affairs, you have no 5th ammendment with them. I think it shoyld be mandatory for a wait period to jnterview and self defense shooting suspect regardless of leo or not.

      • OTOH, saying you decline to make a statement until you have had an opportunity to consult with counsel will stop the questioning EVERY SINGLE TIME.

    • Best advice is what you said: say nothing to police. Get a lawyer. Immediately.

      There is nothing you can’t say later to the police — with a lawyer, through your lawyer — which has to be said at the moment. What you say can, and will, be used against you. What you say is rarely if ever used FOR you.

    • Get a lawyer and say nothing…

      You can stay quiet as long as you like. 72 hours 1237 hours… whatever. The problem is that most people can’t STFU.

      As for the “little room”… This is where you use your words. “Am I under arrest?” If the answer is “No” then just fucking leave saying “My lawyer will get ahold of you”. If they won’t let you leave then demand an explanation of why you’re being detained. If they cant give you one (by providing probable cause or articulating reasonable suspicion [a particularized and objective basis for suspecting the particular person stopped of breaking the law] that you have committed a crime), leave.

      They won’t like it but they can’t stop you.

      • And if you get locked up, on the say nothing front, don’t discuss your case with inmates, during family visitation, or on jail house phones as its all admissible in court.

    • Where in the hell did you did your info?
      When sometimes happens to us- us cops- the questions start immediately, the reporting, the photos, and no food or water or sleep until the report is put to bed!!!!

      At least where the real people live–

    • No possible way that your exaggerated claim of needing medical assistance will come back to be used to undermine your credibility later.🙄

  9. Nothing like lawyers helping to reason away everyone’s constitutional rights…Nothing says gun control than mandating “Mandatory Safety Courses” before being able to purchase a firearm..Or adding other hurdles to a constitutional right…Like local/state police permissions, or permits/licensing…Sounds almost like The People’s Republic of M–Assachusetts…

    • I think mandatory and expensive training courses designed and supervised by me should always be necessary before a person is allowed to take the (also expensive) test to qualify to vote. But for some reason nobody listens. Why the hell does anyone listen to this crap, OBVIOUSLY unconstitutional?

  10. “it would be to also develop a relationship with an experienced gun attorney before you need one”

    Absolutely. Professional criminals pay lawyers in advance for defense in the future. Civilians who carry should do the same. Don’t be caught out with no legal representation should you have to draw your firearm. You carry for the extremely possibility that you may need to use it, why not prepare for the likelihood of legal problems should you do. Consider it the same form of insurance as concealed carry is.

  11. Another vote for the USCCA insurance.
    It’s only a few hundred dollars and a lawyers retainer will cost at least $10,000 to $20,000
    It pays for bail, retainer, stand your ground hearing, investigators etc.
    I also recommend one of Andrew Brancas legal courses.
    He has state specific legal courses for every state.
    They are eye opening!

      • My wife and I spent just under 50K fighting for custody of my niece to get her away from her drug addled parents. The reason I mention this is because I have had the opportunity to see just how fucked up our Judicial system is. Go to court as scheduled one day in Los Angeles and find out my case had been transferred to Riverside. No notice to my lawyer or myself. Four hours wasted for me but not my lawyer! Four hours at 450.00 an hour. 1800 dollar’s in one fucked up afternoon that turned out to be just one of many to come. Judges and lawyers don’t give a fuck about you, you’re just a paycheck or a number to them. I don’t want to leave my wife without a roof over her head. That’s why the insurance. It sucks but it is a necessary evil.

        • Well, I’ve never tried it, but everything I’ve heard in my life says if you got a child away from his/her parents for $50K, you got off REALLY easy, consider yourself lucky!

  12. Good sound advice except he made one glaring omission. Get a good Insurance plan to help pay your court costs and paying for a bottom feeder lawyer such as him, he’ll probably cost you $100,000 by the time he gets done. LMFAO.

  13. Am I the only who would rather be carried by six? I value my freedom far more than my life and am willing to tailor my response to a threat in favor of avoiding prison even if it increases the likelihood of my own demise. I certainly don’t want to be killed, but when you know where your heading after you die, you understand that there isn’t anything to fear. Just wondering if I’m the only one who thinks this way.

  14. Last two articles are a blast from the past and well worth the time to read.

    Myself and Sam I am discuss verbal warnings. Time went by quick.

  15. Talking to the police-
    After 23 years service-
    If you are in teh right, then tell how it happened, and be clear and forceful.

    If you are IN THE WRONG and know it- shut up. Not a word. Done lie. Silence is better.
    You will be arrested if you have no comment. It all depends on witnesses. Get the names of potential witnesses. Count on things being on a cellphone or video- it will help you if you are right- if you are wrong- not so much
    It is relativley easy not to be arrested if you are right in what you did. If you are arrested very difficult to get charges dropped without going through all the hoops

    Ludicrious how folks state their dad or grandpa told them common sense gun safety. So did mine. It served well in the hunting field. That isnt the same as concealed carry and the sometimes confusing local laws. All the training possible is a good thing.

    • Let me add one more proviso: if you are not certain of the difference between the two, err on the side of shutting up and assume you’re getting arrested.

    • Tell that to Kyle Rittenhouse, Video clearly shows self defense, he is still facing a murder charge. I guess it all depends where you live. In my neck of the woods, a DGU would bring praise from local L.E. and maybe a citizen of the year award. But then again, we respect and support L.E. here.

  16. … develop a relationship with an experienced gun attorney before you need one. — James Oliver

    I’ve been thinking about this one, but haven’t done it yet.

    • With USCCA I am not certain this is necessary, haven’t yet done it. When you call their number *they* know the attorneys where you are and will select one for you, especially valuable if you’re far from home. And I suspect “developing a relationship” with an attorney might be prohibitively expensive.

  17. Excellent advice. I’d also recommend reading Andrew Branca’s book, The Law of Self Defense, and buying his core class and the supplement for your state on DVD. Self defense insurance, to pay Mr. Oliver’s bill, would be a good idea. ACLDN has a long and good reputation and is inexpensive. CCW Safe has deeper pockets (think million dollar trials) but is more expensive (but not as much as automobile insurance). USCCA is another program. The last I heard, it was involved in a dispute with one of its clients whom it decided not to cover.

  18. Best legal advice: Don’t get caught, even if it’s justifiable. Had the Golden Whale… I mean, SEAL, in the article not been caught, his life would have never been threatened after the fact. Sad but true. The law exists to fuck you, and even the most “trained” individuals will have to spend thousands on legal representation, as well as the time lost and property taken, to prove they did what was right to a bunch of idiots who have zero understanding of self defense. I get it, and calm down, cuz it’s a joke… kinda… I also live by the “I’d rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6” philosophy, but the sad part is: Those 12 people were not even smart enough to get out of jury duty.

    If no one saw it, dispose of the evidence.

    • If you do that and the body is found after being reported missing, forensic evidence will likely exist tying you to the death. Covering up that killing, which may be a crime in its own right, will be used against you as evidence of your guilt. It is not a recommended course of action. Instead, call 911, say that you have been attacked, and that you shot your attacker. If safe to do so, holster your firearm and wait for the police. Then Repeat: That person attacked me and I shot him/her. Then STFU!

        • Story I’ve heard, thousands of years ago the concept of “murder” involved killing an invited guest within your home. Once he steps outside the door, have at him, it’s all good. Definitions matter.

  19. People who never shootzed a gunm before should have some kinda help learning how no doubt, but to make it Mandatory by law by a licensed know how to shutz it, nope.

  20. Jury misperception can also enable the guilty to go free. I had a case where my marijuana bootlegging tenant exploited the fact that my son and his friend were target practicing as an excuse to shoot at gun with a 12 gauge shotgun. The boys observed the effects of singular projectiles impacting about ten feet from them that has been fired at a range of about 150-200 yards. A logical inference is that the that was firing slugs. While the boys were being undiplomatic, they were not being reckless or threatening by target practicing on our own land.

    The jury was deceived by a scum sucking whore of an attorney (who shall remain nameless but it should be mentioned that the runt is married to Columbia County Oregon Deputy District Attorney Kim Silverman) who misrepresented the boys’ AR15s as being extraordinarily powerful and lethal while misrepresenting a 12 gauge shotgun as a harmless toy for shooting clay pigeons, little birdies, and an occasional mole who might be digging up the yard. He also conflated the Remington 870, pump action, tactical shotgun that the psycho tenant keeps loaded and propped in a corner by the front door with a mythical, antique, Remington 1870.

    Even people who don’t own guns have the idea that shotguns can be dangerous at close range. Even some gun owners don’t understand that a shotgun can be loaded with buckshot, slugs out exotics such as fletchets. To many hunters have forgotten the tables of maximum projectile range from their hunters safely course. Even fewer recall Journees’ formulae. Almost none understand that the projectile velocity and potential penetration depth decay exponentially with range or can calculate terminal velocity at maximum range. The bottom line is that buckshot can be lethal at half a mile and slugs can be lethal out to a mile. Since most tactical shotguns have sights, they can be reasonably accurate out to a few hundred yards.

  21. I am an attorney…when asked, I give this out…..

    if you are going to carry and/or use a gun for defense…
    1. have a war chest ready to hire a competent attorney
    2. if you use a firearm, no matter the situation, immediately stand on your rights
    a. remain silent
    b. after asking for an attorney.

    • That kind of advice makes attorneys a lot (LOT) of money, right? Do you ever advise attorneys to attempt to EARN that money?

LEAVE A REPLY

Please enter your comment!
Please enter your name here