Sgt. Patrick Hayes [not shown] writes:
A recent TTAG thread dealt with the immediate aftermath of a defensive gun use. The responses ran the gamut from full cooperation with the police to saying nothing at all. As a 20-year law enforcement veteran I have investigated several DGU cases. In each case the shooter was cleared of any wrongdoing. Each was ruled as self defense and a lawful use of force. I live and work in Georgia, a pro gun state, and unfortunately that does make a difference . . .
In Georgia when a person claims lawful use of a firearm, we investigate to determine if the facts support that claim. We process the scene, take witness statements and interview the shooter and the person who was shot, if possible. Notice I didn’t use the word victim. In a DGU the shooter is the victim.
If the facts indicate a defensive gun use, we contact the District Attorney and give the case facts to them. If the agree that a defensive use has occurred, they will normally tell the shooter to come in for an in-depth interview at a later date, with an attorney if they wish.
This is important…if the facts indicate a lawful gun use, NO crime has been committed and NO probable cause to arrest exists. For this to occur the shooter has to provide certain facts to the police.
The basics:
- What the offender (the one who was shot ) did: “The man came to my door with a gun. He kicked my door in.”
- What you (the shooter) did: “I feared for my life. I had no choice. I fired my gun and the man stopped attacking me.”
- What evidence exists: Your gun, his gun, your door.
- Who witnessed these events, if anyone
Be sure that the officer or investigator knows that you fired in self-defense. After those questions are answered politely, tell the investigator that you will give a full statement after you speak to your attorney (who you should have called right after 911). This will be a normal response to most cops. We expect it.
What happens if you say nothing at all? What if you demand a lawyer right from the start?
Presumably you called 911. You told 911 that someone was shot. You may have told 911 what the bad guy was doing. You may have told 911 that you shot him. Guess what? All of that is admissible in court. If you don’t answer some basic questions or give some basic information, you are part of a homicide investigation, not a defensive gun use.
You will likely be arrested and charged with murder. You won’t have a bond. You will get a lawyer at some point. Your lawyer now has to convince the District Attorney — who in turn has to convince a judge — to set a bond. The DA and the judge will likely ask why the suspect didn’t tell the story to the police. They may or may not believe you. Your self defense claim just became a trail defense.
This is the most important part: to get out of jail you will have to tell the District Attorney your story. The same story you wouldn’t tell the police because they could “hold it against you in court of law.” And the district attorney is the person who “holds it” against you.
The point is: if you use a firearm in self defense, the burden of proof is on you. The state simply has to prove you shot somebody. You have to show it was lawful self defense. That is a whole lot easier if the cops investigate with that in mind. It’s then a whole lot easier to prevent charges being filed than to fight the charges later.
Keep it simple. Tell the cops the basics. Bad guy did this…I feared for my life…I shot him to stop his attack. It was self defense…there is his gun…here is my gun….. Mrs. Jones across the street saw the whole thing…I will give a full statement after I consult my attorney.
As you know, there are pro-gun state and there are anti-gun states. There are good cops and bad cops. Keep it simple and you should be OK.
The gun is bad. The white haired witch is worried about her son yet won’t protect him from an armed intruder.
“When you’re first diagnosed, you may find yourself reading books, watching videos, getting more and more information on your options. “A
breast cancer diagnosis can be terrifying, especially because there is a lot of waiting —
waiting for the mammogram results, waiting for the biopsy results, waiting to talk to the surgeon and plastic surgeon,
and then waiting for the surgery. For more information visit the American Heart Association or the National Institute of Emergency
Care (Philadelphia).
Im sorry, i dont buy it. To many DA’s and police officers want to make a name or are anti-gun. Look at how open carry is treated by some officials. I honestly believe that everyone but your lawyer is your “enemy” until vetted otherwise.
Agreed. There is a reason why people who immediately get attorneys have a lower conviction rate. Lets go with the data, and with all due respect, not anecdotes from a cop.
People who say nothing are objectively less likely to be convicted. You are not obstructing by consulting with an attorney firsts. And you are NOT suspicious for doing so. Cops have and almost always involve their rights to have their union reps/attorneys with them before giving a statement on a shooting
“Keep it simple. Tell the cops the basics. Bad guy did this…I feared for my life…I shot him to stop his attack. It was self defense…there is his gun…here is my gun….. Mrs. Jones across the street saw the whole thing…I will give a full statement after I consult my attorney”
I said this in a comment a few months ago and got jumped on. So of the counter points were valid about STFU but the fact is, like you said, some basic info is needed up front or you will be arrested on the spot or soon there after. However too much is a bad thing, in a gun unfriendly state or area, it can mean a lot worse. Where that line is is different for every incident, every location, every person. It’s up to you to find out what kind of environment you live in and plan your best strategy. If you carry a weapon, you need to do everything, even the “un-fun” stuff like legal research.
The bottom line is you should have an attorney listed in contacts or on a card in your wallet. Do some reasearch and find a good criminal defense attorney and have that number ready so if anything ever happens, you aren’t fumbling around after a DGU. I am a 20 LEO as well and know the shakey hands and confused manner of a post traumatic event. Most people are a mess and the sound of a calm person (i.e. Attorney) on the phone can help get you through safely. I am a PBA and a FLEOA member, I have personal liability insurance and NRA membership. What do you, as a citizen gun owner have? You may be mentally and physically prepared for a DGU, but are your legally ready. I think that’s the point of this article and others like it and it’s a very good point.
If there is a witness it is better to have the witness say what happened to achieve the same result.
There is a benefit to getting the immediate investigation sympathetic to you, but you need to do this by saying the least amount you can. If a witness can provide the sympathetic story then let them tell it.
There were 2 people in Wi. that “went it alone” no attorney & they were fine. I would not like to try that in a rabid liberal state. In that case I would just refer them to my attorney.
have gsg5 pk which would be fired in the same manner. up like arifle w/red dot optic. this tactic is fast and accurate /headshts @100yds. this system would definitely have advantages in cqb tight confined places. train and the weapon will serve.
You know, Sgt. Hayes did such a Joe Friday like “The facts, just the facts, ma’am.” That I’m inclined to take his advice as opposed to listening to the usual drivel from the interwebz commandos.
Except the data does not support the sargent
So you claim. Where is this data?
What data? You have reliable resources focusing on DGU’s?
To the extent that “things didn’t work out so well” for him, I would argue that Zimmerman is the exception that proves the rule. He co-operated with the cops, and initially they declined to file any charges. If the racial element hadn’t been thrown in, and taken up by politicos all the way up to the White House, that’s where the matter would have ended. And St. Travon of the Skittles didn’t even have a gun. It is also highly likely that when things did go south for Zim, his initial co-operation helped him more than it hurt him.
Yep. I can see having a card in walllet with same four bullet points so you can review and remember what to say and shu up after. Maybe written on back of your attorneys card.
This post shooting prep is just as important as basic gun handling training if you are buying it for HD. I’d expect a good CCW trainer to address it per the state law on elements of valid self defense, castle law, and SYG if applicable.
Amatuers argue strategy. Pro ‘s argue Force Continuum. (TDIINVA u there?)
All the promise of deep and open gaming falls flat. In the end theyre just programs and they all run on some form of an “if/then” track. Whether its Skyrim, Splinter Cell, Borderlands, GTA, Final Fantasy or ZZT a game any game is just checkpoints and key fetches. Some are disguised better than others or look better than others but as deep as they seem youre always just shooting at something in one way or another.
Every game ever made or will be:
Start
if then
if then
if then
End
I like games once in a while but theyre all essentially shallow and one track.
” I live and work in Georgia, a pro gun state, and unfortunately that does make a difference ”
Unfortunate, yes. Even in states that are very friendly to people carrying, there are departments that are not very friendly to civilians who carry. Give out the basic facts of what happened but don’t start blabbing away your whole life story. Too much information can be a bad thing.
Not just state, but the area, too (e.g. Central VA vs NOVA).
Nice review. I carry a model 442 and have a model 686 .357 in the house.
We are senior citizens. My wife is adverse to the recoil on the .38’s and .357’s. Also, her wrist does not seem to be strong enough for a semiautomatic. After some trial and error I was able to purchase a used Colt .32 Detective Special (in great condition) that she enjoyed. Then after lots of Gun Show visits, I bought a .327 Magnum. This gun fires .327 Magnums and also less expensive .32’s (on the range..) So, now my wife’s carry gun solution is .327 and we recommend that to new female shooters. The .327’s are tough to find, so a .32 would maybe be a good compromise.
Zimmerman’s case was an exception in several ways. There are many DGU’s every day where no charges are filed.
We have to keep our eye on the ball here. Using the Zimmerman case as a prototype for pretty much ANY aspect of DGU is similar using Newtown as a prototype for how guns are used by general gun owners. Zimmerman was pretty atypical.
But, yeah, Zimmerman does show that you never KNOW how things will go in the long run…but that is always possible whatever you do / don’t say or who the DA is, etc. We live in an uncertain world.
clamming up immediately is not the answer. you have to articulate your fear for your life or the cops will fill in the blanks for you….and that is NOT a good thing.
no disrespect intended, but in some states it takes more training to be a beautician than a cop.
The quote that always comes to mind in these discussions … “never get off the boat” .
Lol not even for mangoes
Regrettably, there’s no one stop method we can employ on this topic.
It goes without saying that the post home defense shooting ROE for a rancher in Wyoming will be very different from that of an LA or DC resident.
Even in pro gun rights states, there are DAs and police agencies sprinkled about who think guns belong in museums and in government holsters.
Further, it’s impossible for everyone to know the political leanings of every county and city they’re passing through when travelling.A pro gun DA back home can’t save the country man from a bastardized process if he’s in a DGU at The Big Blue City-and every state has one.
The Sgts advice is helpful, as are the previous articles on the topic. Unfortunately , each person has to decide their own approach to The Aftermath based on local attitudes, culture, and their local governments attitude.
I defended my self because I was in fear for my life; I would like to talk to my lawyer now.
Learn it, know it, live it.
From the article:
“The point is: if you use a firearm in self defense, the burden of proof is on you. The state simply has to prove you shot somebody.”
And this is why our nation has gone to Hell in a hand basket. Hundreds of years of jurisprudence goes out the window because firearms were involved. What if there were no firearms, just fists? Say the VICTIM managed to deliver three fantastic punches in three seconds breaking the robber’s nose, and eye socket … causing horrific blood on the face and unconsciousness. Do the police by default arrest the VICTIM because the VICTIM has only a small red mark on his cheek and the robber is obviously on death’s door?
We have a principle in our nation called presumption of innocence. We also have the Fifth Amendment that states “… nor shall [any person] be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself …”
I appreciate what the author of this article is trying to do. I am still not going to say anything to police without an attorney present when deadly force (whether the instruments of deadly force were fists, feet, or firearms) is involved.
No sir, 100 years of jurisprudence is not out the window. You need to look up “affirmative defense.”
An affirmative defense, such as a self defense claim in a homicide or a fair use claim in a copyright tort, shifts the burden of proof to the person making that claim.
This is nothing new.
Thank you JR … see my reply above to your comment about an affirmative defense.
As I stated in my reply, if I have truly been silent, I have not claimed anything — including self-defense. I still have the option later to claim self-defense which is an affirmative defense. But in the minutes and hours immediately following an event where I used deadly force to save my life, I am not going to say anything to the police without an attorney present.
You can still use an affirmative defense without talking to police the moment they arrive on scene. If you called 911 you probably already gave them the basic information such as your name, the fact that you were attacked and the fact that you shot someone. That’s all the facts that anyone needs at that moment before you speak to a lawyer.
And that’s exactly what the article above is advocating.
The point that was being addressed is not how to apply the affirmative defense, but to dispel the incorrect notion that in self defense cases, the burden of proof lies with the State.
No matter WHEN you invoke a self defense claim, at the scene or later it does not matter, it is up to you to prove that (in the strictest sense).
Thanks for a good article. Yes, these are differences in re the laws and people you will be dealing with in each jurisdiction. There are, no doubt, cops and D.A.’s who would prefer to arrest first and ask questions later. However, on a nationwide basis, the vast majority of police officers and district attorneys just want to discover if the DGU was justified and, if so, move on to the next file. If you doubt that assertion, consult “The Armed Citizen” page of each issue of “American Rifleman” magazine. These are actual justified DGU situations, there are usually about a half dozen of them per issue, and they are only the tip of the iceberg.
Nice. Concise and simple. Sgt. Hayes points out that police fully expect you go defer to your lawyer after the pertinent details are passed on. That doesn’t surprise me, much. A cop will wait for you to run your mouth and when you don’t, he’ll understand that he’s not dealing with a fool. After that, you just have to contend with that weird period of silence while waiting for your attorney to show up.
everyone move to pa or georgia or some place where there is sanity about guns.
But are you standing with them..locked and loaded….as in ..NO MORE TYRANNY ALLOWED HERE….?…..
Have watched the lecture “Never talk to the police”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
One thing I took away was how what you say gets “remembered” by police and the DA. Take the “I feared for my life so I shot him.” This can become “The defendent confessed he shot the victim.” Having a lawyer, tape recorder etc. in the room does reduce the chance of this.
In your opinion, do the same problems/complaints exist in the original Remington 51? Slide stop/spring malfunction problem especially.
Can we get a legend? Having not gotten any of my ordered suppressors yet, I can’t tell the model of the various cut aways.
The best way to get back at CT – Take all your business and leave the state.. I understand its a hard move but come to Texas… Less taxes, better weather – you can restart your business without being gutted- can keep your guns and family safe..If the country gets out of control we can succeed..These Progressives are going get you killed..Unless you like your state being run by clueless special ed kids??
Why would your first statement ever be “I was in fear of my life so I shot him”? Remember, you’re talking to the cops, YOU didn’t do anything. “I was in fear of my life and he/she/them got shot”… No admission that you did anything that could come back later to haunt you. let them do ballistic testing if needed to determine that it was your gun that created new holes in a person, don’t tell them it was you.
And by the way, at least in AZ, the burden of proof that it was self defense is not on you. It’s on the state to prove that it wasn’t.
As the lawyers on here can confirm. Self defense is an affirmative defense. You have to claim it. The State has a dead body. They know YOU shot him. Whether or not you claim self defense, the police will still fully process the scene. Forensics will most certainly put you as the shooter. Your lawyer wouldnt be worth a dime if he didnt use self defense. The State has their case. A homicide and the person who did it based on forensic evidence. That is all they need. They have no need nor do they have a responsibility to prove a self defense claim that has not been made.
I have seen some relplies that seem to claim all cops are crooked and want to frame people. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
I would certainly keep it to the basics. I have actually had to stop folks who had just shot someone from talking too much. This debate is great but in the real world I have never had a DGU shooter “Lawyer Up” right away.
I keep my lawyers work, home & cell numbers in my phone. He is availabe 24/7. If you do that you can actually get your lawyers advice BEFORE the cops get there. He can speak for you.
I hope you guys all realize that this has absolutely nothing to do with real life, or guns in real life. It’s just an article about game design, and how the tool of game design called “guns” can often be a cop-out feature to make it more attractive. It often takes away from the game what it could have been, or maybe not.
Where would George Zimmerman be if he followed the STFU advice? He would have been convicted of Second Degree Murder. All the LEOs who were called as witnesses by the prosecution effectively testified for the defense. Does anybody think that would have been the case had George followed the STFU rule?
I think those who generalize STFU usually come from anti-gun states in the Northeast or places like Chicago. If you want to carry a gun learn the law for your jurisdiction and check what it is where you are going when you travel. If you have a chance talk to a local LEO, and if possible, someone from prosecutors office do so. Knowing your rules of engagement will help keep you out of jail.
Blah! Blah! Blah! Endless debate. Preaching to the choir ad nauseum! Why is Kalifornia even a talking point? Face it, ladies: It is a lost cause. This is so for a very simple reason: PRO-2nd AMENDMENT VOTERS are OUTNUMBERED!! Kalif., like the lower NE states, NJ, Maryland and Ill., are controlled by a party that CANNOT, and WILL NOT be voted out of office. Think about it for a minute: Does anybody, with half a brain really believe that there will EVER be a pro-gun majority in the legislatures of these states? You’re dreaming!! Icing on the liberal cake: The last presidential election reveals that it has now become mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for a Republican to EVER get elected president again. Sorry folks, but this is the reality. Best you can do is move to a gun friendly state. We are NOT losing our country…….We HAVE lost our country. Deal with it.
Live in NY. Getting a full carry is difficult.
I’ve been using IMR 4427 (16.5 grn) behind hornady 150 grn SP interlocks with great success. Got some converted brass online to use for them. So far I’m happy with them, and my bullet choice is usually stocked at my local walmart, which is a huge plug. SST’s with the same weight and charge work well too, but they’re compressed.
Thought I would provide the info I received from my Attorney (also a personal friend so we chat about such things at lunch often) who is licensed in several states and has successfully defended a number of DGU cases.
1. Have someone else call 911 if there are others in the area, as you will not have said a word about the incident on the record.
2. While the other person is calling 911, I will be calling my attorney. When the police arrive, and begin to ask questions, I have been instructed to tell them that my attorney is on the phone and I have been asked to hand them the phone.
3. Don’t EVER say you shot someone. Evidence gets lost, so if your gun can’t be produced, the DA will have to prove that you actually had a gun and used it. Without your statement or the gun, the DA’s job just got harder.
4. If I have to call 911, simply advise that there has been a shooting at ____ location and request an ambulance and hang up the phone. I promise, the police will come as well. Don’t give you name or any details, as that puts you on the record.
5. If your attorney is not available, identify the bad guy, his weapon, the witnesses and politely indicate you will provide a full statement with your attorney. Witness statements at the scene will provide information as to DGU.
Yup, you might spend the night in jail, which is much preferred to a lifetime because you started talking and the police drew conclusions first and looked for evidence to support those conclusions. Let’s face it, you are the initial Suspect, so they will start drawing conclusions based upon that fact. I just don’t want to be providing the nails in my own coffin.
As others have noted, in a police shooting, there is a cooling off period before questions are asked of the officer involved, and all questions will involve an attorney. Shouldn’t the a citizen have the benefit of the same treatment?
I’m in Cali, that’s why.
And it will be a decade before Peruta filters down through all the counties, and it will be a legal battle the whole way. By that point, our idiotic handgun roster/microstamping/smart gun requirements will ensure that there will be nothing left to carry.
It will be a while before they get to the Colt SAA Peacemaker though, or the Colt 1911 (Series 80). The former is not on the roster and doesn’t need to be, and the latter will be built and grandfathered for at least the next 100 years. They may be “antiques” but they throw a mass of lead. Or you can move to the Central Valley or up by Sacramento and get your CCW now. Although jobs are scarce, CCWs are easy to come by in short order way up here in the State of Jefferson.
I also don’t carry; firearms are prohibited in my workplace, so it seems like a bit of a pain for the occasional trip to the grocery store or eating out.
That having been said, I also don’t have the slightest problem with others doing so.
I don’t carry in the shower because I make it a rule never to carry when I’m not wearing pants. Otherwise, I am carrying.
I am a Boise State employee. I like feeding my family, but this will change once Gov Otter signs the new bill.
I don’t carry for a very simple reason: until Peruta is finalized, I’m not allowed to exercise my natural right to bear arms for self-defense outside the home. The wheels of justice turn slowly here in California.
I carry when I’m not going to work.
Thank you for submitting that good information. What you’ve outlined is basically what my plan has been and that which I’ve advised others to consider.
if you use a firearm in self defense, the burden of proof is on you.
This is something that needs to be corrected… even in the more pro-RKBA/self-defense states. It should be the other way around.
Thanks Matt W. From work in the investment world in past life and fiduciary stuff now I especially appreciate your explanation of CCW why and why not on an individual basi in practical and rational risk vs return and ROI basis.
In a rational world my decision would be to carry iwb as needed to certain places at certain times both for work and potentially family protection outside the home.
Unfortunately the State of CA has in past decided on a one size fits all that denies that right
I carry always, because I firmly believe that I alone am ultimately responsible for my own safety, and for that of my family. Because none of them will (or can, legally) carry…..
Plus I have been fired upon by an elderly drunk from a hotel window (in a “low threat rural town”), and know from bitter first hand experience that help was ten minutes away.
Relying on others to protect you when you are faced with a sudden and possibly deadly encounter is just plain foolish.
John Davies
Spokane WA USA
I don’t carry at work because my employer prohibits it, I am a truck driver for one of the largest in the world and would prefer to, but to keep my job I abide by the rules. I do carry to work though and lockbox it while I’m there.
If everyone in law enforcement was like this cop, we probably wouldn’t worry too much about this because the truth would come out, fairness and logic would prevail, and justice would get done. However, in the real world, it’s not like this. Anything you say can and will be twisted and distorted and used against you. Sorry, but I just do not trust law enforcement or the legal system.
Having said this, I think we’re in violent agreement that you should say only that you feared for your life and that a person has been shot, and that before you say anything else yo want to talk to an attorney.
The advice in the article applies very locally and maybe to his office. Nationally this is highly unlikely. Getting lawyered up annoys the system but forces them to investigate rather than just hand incriminating statements to the DA.
Don’t ever forget who the cops work for and what they do.
Disabled in PA,carry every day,can’t run,fight,I will shoot you very quick though.
I work at an urban University where carrying is prohibited.
I carry at all other times, including at home.
Lawyers say don’t talk, police say talk…
I’m trusting the one who gets paid from keeping me out of jail, not the one that likely couldn’t careless either way and gets paid regardless.
With all the conflicting information regarding the .22, I believe I will stick with what some posts have said: I will use the appropriate ammo with the appropriate cylinder. I believe it will be safer for the weapon and myself. If I get criticized for this view, so be it.
I own the SCAR-17 and would buy the 16 in a heartbeat if FN had used the 9″ twist barrel. Much more suitable for the 55 and 62 grainers we fire from these things. Just because the military made a bad decision doesn’t mean the civilian market has to follow them over the cliff. Some mfgs get it: Bushmaster, Ruger, Stag, Rock ISland and a cpl others.
If guns show up in a video game, then yeah; unless it’s a megaturd like Silent Hill 4, they’ll probably get used a lot. The Law of Conservation of Detail applies just as much to games as it does to other media, perhaps more so because of the extra programming and art design needed for whatever assets go into it. His complaint isn’t about guns –the commenters there I can’t speak for– so much as it is him looking at what is clearly an action game and expecting it to be a different genre. Action games tend to feature combat, and if the setting is any time past the 18th Century, firearms are almost certainly going to figure into it because, as it turns out, they work really well in combat situations.
I don’t get to complain about how Pac-Man is always eating magically-appearing fruit 34 years after Pac-Man came out; I’ve learned to expect it because hunting for random bonuses is a convention of the Maze genre. If this guy finds videogame gunplay monotonous, then it’s his own damn fault for not considering the thousands upon thousands of games out there that don’t revolve around combat at all.
You can’t argue with people who look at the Bill of Rights as an A la cart menu.
I think I know where some of this is newly found backbone is coming from.
but I ain’t telling.
let’s just say the major 2nd amendment foundations recently realized what a a big red pill could do for the movement 🙂
good to see it’s working its majic.
Did Shannon have on a nice perfume! I mean, did she smell good? I can see what she is wearing but I am wondering about her siren lure. 🙂
Roflmao!!!!!!!
I’ve had my carry permit since it became available in Ohio, 2004. I carry virtually every time I leave the house for the same reason I wear my seat belt all the time. I don’t know when I’ll be in an accident so I try to be prepared.I don’t know when I’ll need the gun, ( hopefully never ), so I have it with me always.
Don’t have a permit yet. I’m working on that, though.
It seems that the antis have been reduced to pushing for a scheme that most people understand is impossible to achieve.
Comment moderated
My employer restricts carry, otherwise I would. Everywhere else I do.
They will definitely have his photo at the door at the next party. Nice work, Alan. Just confirms my belief, ‘if it’s concealed, how will they know?’
I can’t until April 28 2015.
I wonder how many of that 40 or 50 attendees were folks like Messrs. Brooks and Placette–actually on the “other side” and attending just to see what the enemy was up to. Oh, and how many “journalists” there just to “cover” the event.
Glaze’s double talk is so fast my head is spinning. He says criminals, who don’t obey even existing gun laws, are the problem so we need more ineffective and unenforceable laws.
They say that assault rifles and mental illness aren’t the problems, but they want an “assault weapons” ban.
Universal background checks? Give me a break. A student at Arapahoe HS bought a shotgun (not AR), passed his background check, paid the new fee and broke no law until he walked onto campus (a gun free zone), fatally shot a fellow student and committed suicide after being confronted with deadly force by an armed LEO. It could have been worse for my son and others that day, but neither Glaze or Watts live in my world.
Their incoherence proves they have one agenda – increase their own power, make a good living from Bloomberg largesse and confiscate guns in our lifetime.
No way, no how and not going to happen.
There is perhaps a glimmer of hope in their acknowledgement that violent crime happens mainly where people are piled on top of one another in large cities. And there is certainly enough data to show that this crime has nothing to do with lawful gun ownership.
The next step is getting the liberals to acknowledge the real cause of that violence: Liberal policies and “social programs” that have allowed generations of inner-city residents to grow up in a world devoid of personal responsibility.
Yeah. That one will take some time.
I don’t have a good gun for carrying and my work doesn’t allow guns. Normally I’d be questioning their gun policy, but I can understand not wanting loaded guns in a manufacturing environment so I don’t make a big deal about it.
Picture of the year. Hands down.
Hey y’all, been awhile. I got on this one late ’cause I had to abstain from TTAG after my last flaming/beating/whatever. I am still not a troll as was the accusation before. Don’t believe? Don’t care. I’m hopin’ all the true faithful have their computers set to ping if someone responds.
Help me out here, seriously. I’ve been really studying up on the 2A, even to the point of reading the Federalist (BTW, the “papers” part apparently is a 20th century construction).
Anyway, as I understand it (so far) the “well regulated militia part” meant than by allowing the “people” (populace?) the right to keep and bear their arms, the “militia” (active standing army?) would not be able to exercise their power non-discretionally against the general populace? Like tyrannically? Check and Balances? Please enlighten me if I’m getting it wrong. Respectfully.
I didn’t even realize until just now, the antis are thinking the 2A gives the government the power to regulate the people’s (us, AKA U.S) right to keep and bear.
Derrrrpp to me, I guess. And FOAD to them.
/ dons flame proof soot /
Should have worn IWB and gotten a second picture showing it off.
Flattering photo of the ubiquitous Ms. Watts!
So basically, rural dwellers notice that crime is low where they are, with relaxed gun laws, and crime is high in the cities, with strong gun control. But we lack the “intellectual sophistication” to look at the obvious right in front of our faces and deliberately believe the opposite, is that it?
I’m waiting on my pistol. After tgat work doesn’t allow cc and with the number if smash and grabs nearby I’m hesitant to kept it in the car
State law bans guns where I work. Additionally, the place where I work occupies 1/3 the total area of the town where I live.
So 5 days out of the 7, no carry for me. Even weekends and evenings are pushing the envelope; it’s hard not to find yourself on forbidden ground at some point when there’s so much of it.
Wow.
This last week has been pretty good for us.
Washington, Oregon, idaho, California, and now Virginia.
Terrific news.
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Yes. To put that in to perspective, it is something I train for and part of me wishes to actually put my skills to the test rather than have all that time and effort waste away. It is very similar to my time in the Marine Corps, train, train, train, and train some more… only to never engage the enemy… As helicopter aircrew there was always a chance of being engaged, especially when inserting or extracting grunts, but I realize now I should have signed up for infantry…
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I covered the #facebooklistened and #shannonwatts hashtags on Twitter and FB with this. I anticipate leftist moonbat butthurt all over my @libertydwells feed in 3…2…1…
I can see where this guy is coming from. I realize its probably not pertinent to a game like GTA (I can’t recall the name of the game in the picture, haven’t played it), but if you put what he’s saying in a different context, like say, Day Z, then yes, I can totally see where hes coming from.
I’ve played lots of games where a gun is given to you (or you acquire one) and you are given the option to not use it on someone. Overwhelmingly though, its more fun to shoot people down. I don’t really care if those people are computer AI or other players. At the end of the day, I guess, if someone gives me a gun, I’m going to want to pull the trigger on something, be it paper, steel, or pixels.
If you’re in a DGU you need to try and recognize that you have been traumatized and are in need of immediate medical care. You do not talk with the police about the incident unless to inform them of some life threatening circumstance that still exists. You next speak with an Attorney, but realize that the trauma you have suffered may have distorted your perceptions and your memory of events might change significantly within 24 or 72 hours after the event.
Who else senses a Cheryl “Carol” Tunt vibe to her. Gluing up with ocelots while getting strangled, etc.
Stupid Idiots who think singing Kumbyah to pirates will stop them.They have millions to gain and how much did it cost US Taxpayers to rescue Capt. Phillips ? When a few shots from a 50 caliber armor piercing ,incendiary across their bows would give them rethink,and save lives and millions and millions of US TAXPAYERS DOLLARS. But MDA and MAIG and BRADY and all the rest of the goodie two shoes antis will cry foul for the poor Pirates!
This is something that bothered me while watching the film. I assume that the ship in the movie is pretty representative of cargo vessels. Granted, i am not a professional, but it seems to me a pretty well defensible position.
The pirates don’t have much of an option for attaching ladders but to come abeam the ship. If they managed to actually get aboard they would find themselves on a walkway which runs the length of the freighter. One dude with a rifle and cover could sufficiently control the entire side of the boat against a small pirate crew.
I have my permit but don’t carry. I even have a little TCP. But I just don’t need to carry. I live in a little town with virtually zero crime. My 9-5 has me in clients homes all day long. No way I’m carrying in their house. In a crowd I would be one of the last to be picked out as a potential victim. When I go out with the family we don’t go to the city. The only time I ever carry is when we’re camping or if I have to be in a bad part of the city for some reason. Being a slim guy with a modern wardrobe makes carrying even a TCP a PITA.
This guy got it right during another prohibition:
“The prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered considerably by the Prohibition law. For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this country is closely connected with this.”
-Albert Einstein
To Matt W…….
It’s your decision to not carry.
And, it will be YOUR funeral for
making that choice should the
worst come to pass. The truly
sad thing though is that it might
also be your wife’s funeral or your
children’s funeral also.
In loco parentis? Is your university full of minors?
Oh the irony. They wan’t to deny people safety in hopes of making them feel safe.
That PMR is a cool gun, but try to find ammo for it right now. I’ve shot one of there .380’s, it was a decent gun, nothing to write home about though.
I’ve done a lot of work for companies who wanted to become or were re-certifying as ISO-9001 and it is not an easy process, just the documentation requirements are staggering. Hopefully, being ISO certified will clean-up their dread quality control issues. Kel-Tec makes cool guns but they also make guns with issues. I have yet to see or own a Kel-Tec rifle that didn’t need to make a return trip to Florida at least once.
As the token female on the blog I am having a twitter field day with this 🙂
“The point is: if you use a firearm in self defense, the burden of proof is on you. The state simply has to prove you shot somebody. You have to show it was lawful self defense.” ~Sgt. Patrick Hayes
Um, no. the state must prove that the murder was committed in a capacity that requires incarceration. The author has no concept of how the legal system works. (sad, ‘cuz he’s an LEO.) The state has the burden of proof, ALWAYS. After a DGU, sit down, shut up and get an attorney. you may spend a couple days in jail, but it’s better than saying something that can be misconstrued and spending the better part of your life being a**- raped by Bubba.
You have the right to remain silent, use it.
“After a DGU, sit down, shut up . . .”
That’s one way to go.
It’s not the best way, but it’s one way.
–Andrew, @LawSelfDefense